To Obama, He's only a Plumber

[Wild Cobra]

Probably one of the biggist mistakes Obama could make when talking against McCain:
He's trying to suggest that a plumber is the guy he's fighting for.

How many plumbers you know that are making a quarter-million dollars a year?

Problem here is, he probably just lost everyone who is a small business owner with employees, and employees of trades.

How can Obama hate the working class and small business owners so much? McCain wasn't fighting just for Joe, but all the hard working Joe's out there.

[FromWayDowntown]

Probably one of the biggist mistakes Obama could make when talking against McCain:

Problem here is, he probably just lost everyone who is a small business owner with employees, and employees of trades.

How can Obama hate the working class and small business owners so much? McCain wasn't fighting just for Joe, but all the hard working Joe's out there.

I'm quite certain that the entire election has now changed and that McCain is going to win convincingly.

[ElNono]

Probably one of the biggist mistakes Obama could make when talking against McCain:

Problem here is, he probably just lost everyone who is a small business owner with employees, and employees of trades.

How can Obama hate the working class and small business owners so much? McCain wasn't fighting just for Joe, but all the hard working Joe's out there.

Would you say there's 10% of the population in the country making over $250,000+/year? More, less? Whatever it is, it's never more than probably 30%. That means that when he says that, he's catering to the other 70% of the population. It's not really that complicated to see why...

[Wild Cobra]

Would you say there's 10% of the population in the country making over $250,000+/year? More, less? Whatever it is, it's never more than probably 30%. That means that when he says that, he's catering to the other 70% of the population. It's not really that complicated to see why...
But what do you think many small business owners will be telling their employees?

Yes, he is using class warfare, but in this case, it will very likely backfire on him.

[ElNono]

But what do you think many small business owners will be telling their employees?

What are they gonna tell em?


Yes, he is using class warfare, but in this case, it will very likely backfire on him.

I honestly doubt it. It might be 'socialist', but I think it's a great way to appeal to the majority of the population out there...

[Wild Cobra]

What are they gonna tell em?

They can say many things, including "I may have to let some of you go if Omaba raises my taxes."



I honestly doubt it. It might be 'socialist', but I think it's a great way to appeal to the majority of the population out there...

But he already has those people that it appeals to. If you think the "Robin Hood" mantality appeals to the majority, you really don't talk about such things with very many people.

[timvp]

Most plumbers I know cling to guns or religion.

[InRareForm]

How can Obama hate the working class and small business owners so much?

Loaded questions are stupid.

[Mr. Peabody]

Fact check: Plumber Joe's taxes

McCain has entrepreneurs spooked about tax hikes, but fewer than 2% of small business owners would pay more under Obama's plan.

By Stacy Cowley
Last Updated: October 16, 2008: 12:30 PM ET
(CNNMoney.com) -- In speech after speech, presidential candidate John McCain hammers on the claim that his rival Barack Obama will raise taxes on many small businesses.

At the debate on Wednesday night, McCain said, "The small businesses that we're talking about would receive an increase in their taxes right now."

More typically he has said: "What [Obama] hasn't told you is that he would tax half of the income of small businesses in America," a line used in La Crosse, Wisc., last week.

Should small business owners fear for their wallets if Obama is elected? Not the vast majority, business and tax experts say.

To make its claim, according to a McCain spokesman, the campaign counts as a small-business owner any taxpayer who files a Schedule C, E or F - the forms used to report gains and losses from business ventures and farms.

Using that definition and citing IRS data, the campaign notes that "56.8% of total small business income is earned by businesses in the top two rates, which Barack Obama has pledged to raise."

It's true that Obama has proposed raising taxes on the top two income rates.

But there are three main problems with McCain's charge.

What is a small business?
First, it relies on a broad definition of what counts as a small business, including everyone who files a Schedule C, E and F.

But most people who file those forms don't run a business for a living: Those forms are also used to report income from freelance and consulting work, real-estate rentals, and most other non-salary sources.

For example, McCain and Obama both file Schedule C returns, thanks to their book royalties - but they hardly should be considered small business owners.

In 2005, there were 21.5 million Schedule C returns filed, according to the IRS.

A more realistic definition of small businesses turns up far fewer firms. The Small Business Administration estimates that there were 6 million small businesses in 2005, as measured by those with fewer than 500 employees and with staff on the payroll other than the owner.

Who pays?
Second, even using the broad definition of small business that McCain likes, very few owners would see their own taxes rise.

That's because the lion's share of taxable income comes from a small number of wealthy businesses. Out of 34.7 million filers with business income on Schedules C, E or F, 479,000 filers fall into the top two brackets, according to an analysis of projected 2009 filings by the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center.

The other 34.3 million - or 98.6% - would be unaffected by Obama's proposed rate hike.

That includes Joe "The Plumber" Wurzelbacher:lol, whom McCain invoked nearly two dozen times at the debate Wednesday night to illustrate the plight of the average worker and small business owner.

"Joe wants to buy the business that he has been in for all of these years ... he wanted to buy the business but he looked at your tax plan and he saw that he was going to pay much higher taxes," McCain said.

In an interview afterward with WTOL, Wurzelbacher acknowledged that he'd still like to eventually buy the plumbing company he works for but that he wouldn't yet be hit by higher taxes.

"I want to set the record straight: Currently I would not fall into Barack Obama's $250,000-plus,":lol he said. "But if I'm lucky in business and taxes don't go up then maybe I can grow the business and be in that tax bracket - well, let me rephrase it. Hopefully, that tax won't be there."

Few owners are that lucky in business. In a member survey conducted late last year, the National Federation of Independent Business (NFIB) found that only 14% of respondents said they had $200,000 or more in annual income.

As Tax Policy Center fellow Len Berman recently toldFortune Small Business: "Most owners of small businesses have small incomes."

What gets taxed?
Third, even if you're one of the rare business owners making enough money to be affected by Obama's proposed tax increases, you still won't see a big hike in your tax bill.

McCain's claim that Obama "will increase taxes on 50% of small business revenue" - the line he used in the second presidential debate - is incorrect because of how income is taxed.

If a business owner falls into the top bracket, that doesn't mean that all of his or her income is taxed at the highest level.

For example: If a small-business owner makes $210,000 in taxable income, he edges into the 33% bracket, one of the two top tax rates that Obama would like to raise.

But he would pay the higher tax only on the amount that exceeds the cutoff - in 2007, the two top tax rates applied to single filers with income of $160,850 or more and joint filers with income of at least $195,850. As a single filer, this business owner would see his federal taxes increase $1,475 under Obama's plan, which calls for raising the 33% tax rate to 36%.

"While Obama does favor raising the top two rates, the quote is not true because not all the small business income of those in the top two rates is taxed at the 33% and 35% rates," said Gerald Prante, a senior economist at the nonpartisan Tax Foundation.

The bottom line: McCain's claim only works by using an overly broad definition of what counts as a "small business" - and even with that definition, fewer than 2% of business owners would be hit by Obama's proposed rate increase. For those who are affected, the increase would be levied only on a part of their earnings, not all of them.

CNNMoney.com writer Emily Maltby contributed to this report.

[Wild Cobra]

Apples and Oranges.

Still, 479,000 small businesses will see increased tax rates. Sorry, that's 479,000 too many.

[TheMadHatter]

game changer

[Mr. Peabody]

Problem here is, he probably just lost everyone who is a small business owner with employees, and employees of trades.

How can Obama hate the working class and small business owners so much?

I'm a small business owner and I'm better off under Obama's tax and health care plan.

Just off the top of my head, the other small business owners I know and talk to will be better off under Obama's plans as well.

And that's with him hating us. Go figure.

[Wild Cobra]

I'm a small business owner and I'm better off under Obama's tax and health care plan.

Just off the top of my head, the other small business owners I know and talk to will be better off under Obama's plans as well.

And that's with him hating us. Go figure.

I understand.

You fall into the "Tax Credit" area where the govenment might give you back more than you paid in estimated taxes.

How Anti-AMerican...

[ElNono]

They can say many things, including "I may have to let some of you go if Omaba raises my taxes."


With the economy in pieces as it is, I'm sure those employees don't feel any safer. I mean, that's exactly why they're voting for Obama in the first place.
I also would be the first to tell you that if I ever have a douche boss that even suggests the way I should vote, I would go vote for the other guy, and the day after the election I would give him my middle finger along with my resignation.



But he already has those people that it appeals to. If you think the "Robin Hood" mantality appeals to the majority, you really don't talk about such things with very many people.

The problem is that right now, people hate more the 'Trickle down' mentality than the 'Robin Hood' one.

Don't worry, I'm already bracing myself to hear 4 years of bitching and complaining from you, Anti.Hero and 101A.

[Mr. Peabody]

I understand.

You fall into the "Tax Credit" area where the govenment might give you back more than you paid in estimated taxes.

How Anti-AMerican...

:lol

I guess.

I worked hard, got an education, and started a business providing a service to the community I live in. I built the business from the ground up and was the only employee in the beginning. The business has grown and I now provide wages to two full-time employees.

If that makes me anti-American, then so be it.

[Wild Cobra]

:lol

I guess.

I worked hard, got an education, and started a business providing a service to the community I live in. I built the business from the ground up and was the only employee in the beginning. The business has grown and I now provide wages to two full-time employees.

If that makes me anti-American, then so be it.
Do you think it's right to take a tax credit if it gives you money back you didn't pay in taxes?

That's what Obama's doing for small of the small businesses.

Hell, tax breaks are one thing, but tax credits are un-American.

[boutons_]

Only 15% of all households have $100K+/year

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States

Median household income is just under $50K.

[Mr. Peabody]

Do you think it's right to take a tax credit if it gives you money back you didn't pay in taxes?

That's what Obama's doing for small of the small businesses.


Is he doing this out of his sense of hatred for small business and small business owners?


Problem here is, he probably just lost everyone who is a small business owner with employees, and employees of trades.

How can Obama hate the working class and small business owners so much?

So Obama "hates" small business owners so much that he is giving them a tax credit in excess of what they pay in taxes?





Pardon me.......:lmao

[Spurminator]

I didn't think it could get any worse but this Joe the Plumber charade takes the cake.

[romad_20]

Guy is not even a plumber, nor does he earn $250,000 a year. Game changer indeed.

[peewee's lovechild]

Wild Cobra is a moron.

"Plumber Joe" was on NPR saying that he realizes that he won't get taxed under Obama's tax plan.

That fucker is just against paying taxes.

Oh . . . . newsflash . . . NPR reported that "Plumber Joe" owes $1,700 in back taxes.

[Spurminator]

Democrats would be well advised to refrain from digging up a bunch of dirt on this guy in the next week and making another "Liberal Media Martyr" out of him, but I know you guys will eagerly fuck this up for yourselves as you always do.

[peewee's lovechild]

Democrats would be well advised to refrain from digging up a bunch of dirt on this guy in the next week and making another "Liberal Media Martyr" out of him, but I know you guys will eagerly fuck this up for yourselves as you always do.

Who's digging up anything?

That dumbass made himself stand out.

He was making the rounds on T.V. shows.

Of course they're going to look into who he is and what he's all about.

And, it turned out that deadbeat isn't even paying his god damned taxes, like you and I do.

It also turns out that he doesn't even have a plan on buying the plumbing business that he works at. Which by the way, earns less than $200,000 a year.

When they asked him if he makes $200,000 a year, he said that he makes "no where near that much". So, he has no reason to bitch about the increase in taxes for those who make more than $250,000 a year under Obama's plan.

[Wild Cobra]

Wild Cobra is a moron.

"Plumber Joe" was on NPR saying that he realizes that he won't get taxed under Obama's tax plan.

That fucker is just against paying taxes.

Oh . . . . newsflash . . . NPR reported that "Plumber Joe" owes $1,700 in back taxes.
Please keep the facts strait and in context. Joe will not see a tax increase because the Plumbing company isn't his. He said he was thinking of buying it. If he buys the company, he will now have a larger tax burden than he originally bargained for when he decided to buy.

Keep in mind how often NPR twists the facts. Besides, Joe owes the state of Ohio $1,182.98. Not $1,700.

Is 'Joe the Plumber' really a plumber? That may be debatable (http://www.cfrb.com/news/56/809394)

[ratm1221]

Probably one of the biggist mistakes Obama could make when talking against McCain:

Problem here is, he probably just lost everyone who is a small business owner with employees, and employees of trades.

How can Obama hate the working class and small business owners so much? McCain wasn't fighting just for Joe, but all the hard working Joe's out there.

I think you left out part of the quote. Where's the part where he says "He's only a plumber?" Please include the rest of the quote.

And is biggist bigger than biggest?

[Spurminator]

Who's digging up anything?

That dumbass made himself stand out.

He was making the rounds on T.V. shows.

Of course they're going to look into who he is and what he's all about.

And, it turned out that deadbeat isn't even paying his god damned taxes, like you and I do.

It also turns out that he doesn't even have a plan on buying the plumbing business that he works at. Which by the way, earns less than $200,000 a year.

When they asked him if he makes $200,000 a year, he said that he makes "no where near that much". So, he has no reason to bitch about the increase in taxes for those who make more than $250,000 a year under Obama's plan.

You don't get it.

[peewee's lovechild]

Please kep the facts strait and in context. Joe will not see a tax increase because the Plumbing company isn't his. He said he was thinking of buying it. If he buys the company, he will now have a larger tax burden than he originally bargained for when he decided to buy.

Keep in mind how often NPR twists the facts. Besides, Joe owes the state of Ohio $1,182.98. Not $1,700.

Is 'Joe the Plumber' really a plumber? That may be debatable (http://www.cfrb.com/news/56/809394)


Ohhhhh, so he only owes $1,182.98 in back taxes???

Well, excuse me.

I can see how the rest of us in America will have such great sympathy for a guy bitching about paying taxes when he hasn't even paid his yet, while the rest of us already have.

I'm glad you and McCain have found a new hero, Wild Cobra.
And such and example too.


John McCain based his entire arguement on a guy who is "thinking" about buying a company, that makes less than $200,000 per year, and who hasn't paid his taxes yet.

This is absolutely freaking genius.

[peewee's lovechild]

You don't get it.

Apparently, neither do you.

[FromWayDowntown]

Joe wants to buy his business so that he can make more money. If Joe makes more money, his tax liability will increase -- that's never really been a disputed question, as far as I can tell. So the possibility that an increase in Joe's income will result in an increase in his tax liability is controversial -- how?

[Spurminator]

Apparently, neither do you.

Go ahead and keep Joe the Plumber's personal affairs in the news. While you're at it, dig up his past relationships (ex wives? Prison record?). This will all be very helpful to the Democratic campaign, because the success of the Republican strategy here hinges on the legitimacy of the LITERAL Joe the Plumber.

[Wild Cobra]

Joe wants to buy his business so that he can make more money. If Joe makes more money, his tax liability will increase -- that's never really been a disputed question, as far as I can tell. So the possibility that an increase in Joe's income will result in an increase in his tax liability is controversial -- how?

Joe only has so much money to buy the business with. Anytime you make such an investiment, you have to look at how much you pay for the loan, and how much you pay in taxes. This could be the deal breaker. Joe might not buy the business now because he may fear he doesn't have enough income to debt ratio that includes the increased abount of taxes he will pay, from his original projections.

Looks like Joe sees the American Dream slipping away under an Obama presidency.

[Spurminator]

"American Dream" "Joe the Plumber" "Spreading the Wealth" "Baa-aa-aa-aa"

[FromWayDowntown]

Go ahead and keep Joe the Plumber's personal affairs in the news. While you're at it, dig up his past relationships (ex wives? Prison record?). This will all be very helpful to the Democratic campaign, because the success of the Republican strategy here hinges on the legitimacy of the LITERAL Joe the Plumber.

Yeah, I'm with you on that. I have no idea why anyone would go looking for the literal Joe the Plumber; McCain's point, valid or otherwise, was about the archetype that Joe the Plumber represents.
What I don't understand about McCain's criticism, however, is the notion that someone who increases his earnings -- perhaps even by a significant amount -- should somehow not expect that the increase will result in an increase in his tax burden. That's been true with Republican and Democratic presidents; it's nothing new.

[FromWayDowntown]

Joe only has so much money to buy the business with. Anytime you make such an investiment, you have to look at how much you pay for the loan, and how much you pay in taxes. This could be the deal breaker. Joe might not buy the business now because he may fear he doesn't have enough income to debt ratio that includes the increased abount of taxes he will pay, from his original projections.

Looks like Joe sees the American Dream slipping away under an Obama presidency.


If Joe increased his income during the Bush Presidency, say by buying the plumbing business, he'd pay more taxes than he currently does, too.

[Wild Cobra]

If Joe increased his income during the Bush Presidency, say by buying the plumbing business, he'd pay more taxes than he currently does, too.
Please re-read what I said.

...the increased amount of taxes he will pay, from his original projections.

[FromWayDowntown]

Please re-read what I said.

so the problem isn't that he'd increase his tax burden, it's that he'd increase his tax burden by slightly more under Obama than he would under McCain or Bush?

[Spurminator]

Yeah, I'm with you on that. I have no idea why anyone would go looking for the literal Joe the Plumber; McCain's point, valid or otherwise, was about the archetype that Joe the Plumber represents.

:tu

And the archetypical Joe the Plumber archetype could be helpful for the Democrats to plainly make the case for Obama's tax plan if there is a case to be made. Sadly, few will go at it from this angle and will instead tear down the literal Joe the Plumber, which does nothing to dispute the idea of Obama as a mad taxer of small business owners, and also creates a new hero for Republicans to rally around.

[Spurminator]

Could people not create small businesses during the Clinton years? Was the American Dream dead in the 90's?

[FromWayDowntown]

Could people not create small businesses during the Clinton years? Was the American Dream dead in the 90's?

:tu

That's what I was wondering, too, in response to Cobra's new thread promising tax increases for all. While I doubt that will come to pass, for a variety of reasons, even if the result was a return to Clinton-era tax policy, I seem to recall an economy that was thriving during that time, contrary to the predictions of doom and gloom that Cobra and others offer up.

[timvp]

:tu

And the archetypical Joe the Plumber archetype could be helpful for the Democrats to plainly make the case for Obama's tax plan if there is a case to be made. Sadly, few will go at it from this angle and will instead tear down the literal Joe the Plumber, which does nothing to dispute the idea of Obama as a mad taxer of small business owners, and also creates a new hero for Republicans to rally around.This makes way too much sense. Stop messing around and let's go see if he's even registered to vote.

[FromWayDowntown]

Joe was stupid to come with that loaded question knowing Obama's media would be all over his ass. First of all, he has no license to do pumbling, he only makes around 40k a year... if that, he owes back taxes since 2002, and the company that he claimed was producing $250-280k is only worth $100k. The truth is Joe doesnt feel that anyone should have to pay taxes. It seems like every little antic Mccain tries it just keeps back firing.

sigh.

[Wild Cobra]

Joe was stupid to come with that loaded question knowing Obama's media would be all over his ass. First of all, he has no license to do pumbling, he only makes around 40k a year... if that, he owes back taxes since 2002, and the company that he claimed was producing $250-280k is only worth $100k. The truth is Joe doesnt feel that anyone should have to pay taxes. It seems like every little antic Mccain tries it just keeps back firing.
Whre do you get your news? You are so misinformed!

1) Joe never said he as a plumber. He said he wanted to by the Plumbing company he worked for. He might be the bookkeeper. We don't know.

2) Joe never said he made $250,000 to $280,000. He said the company he wants to buy does.

3) You proved yourself to be an ignorant propaganda wench.

[PM5K]

Whre do you get your news? You are so misinformed!

1) Joe never said he as a plumber. He said he wanted to by the Plumbing company he worked for. He might be the bookkeeper. We don't know.

He can't buy the company anyway, because then said company wouldn't have a licensed plumber.

2) Joe never said he made $250,000 to $280,000. He said the company he wants to buy does.

Too bad he can't afford to buy said company since he only makes about 40K a year....

3) You proved yourself to be an ignorant propaganda wench.

[peewee's lovechild]

Whre do you get your news? You are so misinformed!

1) Joe never said he as a plumber. He said he wanted to by the Plumbing company he worked for. He might be the bookkeeper. We don't know.

2) Joe never said he made $250,000 to $280,000. He said the company he wants to buy does.

3) You proved yourself to be an ignorant propaganda wench.

1. The company doesn't make that much.

2. He doesn't have a plan to buy this company and doesn't have the money to buy this company. He can't even pay his taxes right now (he owes over $1,000 in back taxes). . . so, how the hell can he afford to buy this company?

3. Under Obama's plan, he wouldn't see an increase in taxes because the company doesn't make more than $250,000. He even admitted this on radio and T.V.

4. If this company has never made over $250,000, what makes him think that it will in the near future?

5. This douchebag is not even a plumber. So, this "Joe The Plumber" bullshit that McCain was spewing is just pure and utter bullshit.



You guys reek of desperation.

[JoeChalupa]

Desperate moves sometimes have great results and I see McCain gaining some ground from this story and you know both he and Sarah are going to milk it for all its worth.

[peewee's lovechild]

Desperate moves sometimes have great results and I see McCain gaining some ground from this story and you know both he and Sarah are going to milk it for all its worth.

He made a desperation move by picking Pallin to be his running mate. How'd that game changer turn out for him?

Joe The Plumber is a novelty, and it plays very well with his base.

But, it will all wear off.

[Hook Dem]

"This douchebag is not even a plumber. So, this "Joe The Plumber" bullshit that McCain was spewing is just pure and utter bullshit."

QUESTION......Would he be a douchebag if he was voting for Obama?:lmao

[JoeChalupa]

He made a desperation move by picking Pallin to be his running mate. How'd that game changer turn out for him?

Joe The Plumber is a novelty, and it plays very well with his base.

But, it will all wear off.

I don't think so. Just look at how all the conservatives are all over his nutsack and guys like whottt are still creaming their jeans over the Sarah Palin pick.

[101A]

Yeah, I'm with you on that. I have no idea why anyone would go looking for the literal Joe the Plumber; McCain's point, valid or otherwise, was about the archetype that Joe the Plumber represents.
What I don't understand about McCain's criticism, however, is the notion that someone who increases his earnings -- perhaps even by a significant amount -- should somehow not expect that the increase will result in an increase in his tax burden. That's been true with Republican and Democratic presidents; it's nothing new.

It's because of the statement Obama made, "We need to spread the wealth around". It sounds anathema to what is right to many Americans. McCain is capitilizing on this.

That, and, in fact, Obama's campaign is one of "soak the rich" -whether in actual practice it is much different from McCain's policy; his language is that. ONLY the top 5% will get a tax increase ("I'm gonna stick it to those rich bastards who did so well under those greedy Republicans!") is the undercurrent. When, in fact, there is only a 3% difference between the tax policies.

[101A]

"This douchebag is not even a plumber. So, this "Joe The Plumber" bullshit that McCain was spewing is just pure and utter bullshit."

QUESTION......Would he be a douchebag if he was voting for Obama?:lmao

He's a plumber; he's not a licensed plumber. He, in fact, "plumbs" for a living.

[peewee's lovechild]

QUESTION......Would he be a douchebag if he was voting for Obama?:lmao

Yes, he would be.

And, if Obama were to use him as the basis of an argument he was making, I'd call him out for it.

[peewee's lovechild]

He's a plumber; he's not a licensed plumber. He, in fact, "plumbs" for a living.

Hey, I change the oil to my vehicles and fix whatever I can on my own.

That should make me a mechanic, right?

[101A]

Hey, I change the oil to my vehicles and fix whatever I can on my own.

That should make me a mechanic, right?


Only if you get paid (and whatever your wife gives you doesn't count).

[peewee's lovechild]

Only if you get paid (and whatever your wife gives you doesn't count).

Then, you make perfect sense.

[clambake]

He might be a bookkeeper.

is there anything more dangerous to a business to have a bookkeeper that has personal debt?

[Spurminator]

Could people not create small businesses during the Clinton years? Was the American Dream dead in the 90's?


Still curious about this. Could some of you older people who were alive way back in the nineties remind all of us youngins what it was like living in a socialist society?

[PM5K]

He's a plumber; he's not a licensed plumber. He, in fact, "plumbs" for a living.

Since he's not licensed I personally wouldn't call him a plumber, since he has to work with a licensed plumber on site, I'd call him a plumbers assistant, but that's just me.

[101A]

Since he's not licensed I personally wouldn't call him a plumber, since he has to work with a licensed plumber on site, I'd call him a plumbers assistant, but that's just me.

In Ohio you don't need a license to be a residential plumber; only to work commercial properties. He is a residential plumber.

BTW, I just turned on my Sigs for the first time in a couple of months. I'm changing my vote; something has persuaded me.

[florige]

Plumber Joe/Sam, :lol just represents the average Joe. Attacking him is stupid.

[Anti.Hero]

How can Obama hate the working class and small business owners so much?

BECAUSE HE ONLY STICKS UP FOR UNION WORKERS WHO ARE THEIR BOSSES' BITCHES WHO ARE THE GOVERNMENTS' BITCHES.

Obama and many libtards can't comprehend that a self-employed working man out on his own can make 250k+ in revenue without the help of a union or the government.

Biden is a joke who needs government work to make his millions.

[hitmanyr2k]

Still curious about this. Could some of you older people who were alive way back in the nineties remind all of us youngins what it was like living in a socialist society?

The 90's weren't bad at all. The tax bogeyman bullshit is just the same old talking points politicians (and their followers) use to scare up a few votes. They're going to tax you....BOO!! :wow Socialism!! BOO!!:wow

Halloween is the perfect season for this garbage :lol

[101A]

Still curious about this. Could some of you older people who were alive way back in the nineties remind all of us youngins what it was like living in a socialist society?


Clinton was not as liberal as Obama; and did not have nearly as liberal of a Congress, for even his first two years. After that; well, you just don't get further apart politically than Gingrich is from Pelosi.

I would give the Democrats the WH in perpetuity if we could have Newt as speaker at the same time.

[peewee's lovechild]

Biden is a joke who needs government work to make his millions.

Biden is the least wealthy Senator in the Senate.

McCain, on the other hand, is quite wealthy.

[PM5K]

In Ohio you don't need a license to be a residential plumber; only to work commercial properties.

I haven't followed the entire story, but that's certainly interesting to hear.

I recall reading that he had worked on a gas station (a commercial property).

The problem is that Joe The Plumber DOES represent the average Joe, that Joe that would benefit from Obamas tax plan, but McCain intended for Joe to represent a small business owner, which he does not.

[peewee's lovechild]

Clinton was not as liberal as Obama; and did not have nearly as liberal of a Congress, for even his first two years. After that; well, you just don't get further apart politically than Gingrich is from Pelosi.

I would give the Democrats the WH in perpetuity if we could have Newt as speaker at the same time.

Remember that time when he had his little "contract with America" an shut down Congress and what not??

Ahhhh, good times.

[101A]

Biden is the least wealthy Senator in the Senate.

McCain, on the other hand, is quite wealthy.

Yeah, but his kids, who are getting all that money from his campaigns, are doing JUST fine.

McCain married money; it happens.

Now, how the fuck did Obama afford a $1.8 million dig on a State Senator's budget?

[101A]

Remember that time when he had his little "contract with America" an shut down Congress and what not??

Ahhhh, good times.


NOT just Congress; damn near the whole damn Federal Government!!!

Yes it was.

Thanks for the memory.

[peewee's lovechild]

Remember this about Newt:


Eighty-four ethics charges, most of which were leveled by House Democratic Whip David Bonior, were filed against Speaker Gingrich during his term, including claiming tax-exempt status for a college course run for political purposes. Following an investigation by the House Ethics Committee, Gingrich was sanctioned for US$300,000[22] after the House Ethics Committee concluded that inaccurate information supplied to investigators represented "intentional or ... reckless" disregard of House rules.[23] Special Counsel James M. Cole concluded that Gingrich violated federal tax law and had lied to the ethics panel in an effort to force the committee to dismiss the complaint against him. However, the full panel refused to reach a conclusion about whether Gingrich had violated federal tax law and instead decided to leave that finding up to the IRS.[24] In 1999, the IRS cleared the organizations connected with the "Renewing American Civilization" courses under investigation for possible tax violations, which suggests that Gingrich did not use tax-exempt money for political purposes.


Ahhhh, Newt was such a great man.

[101A]

Remember this about Newt:




Ahhhh, Newt was such a great man.


Say what you want; the record, or the country's success while he was Speaker simply don't lie. Great economic growth; budget surpluses, etc...if he hadn't stepped out on his wife; and been speaker when Bush was pres.; we would be in a MUCH different place right now.

[peewee's lovechild]

NOT just Congress; damn near the whole damn Federal Government!!!

Yes it was.

Thanks for the memory.

That went real well for him, didn't it?

Yea, pure greatness there.

[peewee's lovechild]

Say what you want; the record, or the country's success while he was Speaker simply don't lie. Great economic growth; budget surpluses, etc...if he hadn't stepped out on his wife; and been speaker when Bush was pres.; we would be in a MUCH different place right now.

:lol:lol:lol

He was forced out by his own party and was forced to give up the position of Speaker of The House.

By his own party!!!

God damn, you are priceless.

[101A]

:lol:lol:lol

He was forced out by his own party and was forced to give up the position of Speaker of The House.

By his own party!!!

God damn, you are priceless.


Yeah, and look at the spending spree HIS party went on after he was gone.

He was forced out because, after going after Clinton for a sex scandal he was caught in one of his own. You try to take on the King and fail; well, there's historic precedent for what's gonna happen to you.

Again; look at the United State's revenues vs. expenditures while he was speaker. It is not a coincidence.

[Spurminator]

Clinton was not as liberal as Obama; and did not have nearly as liberal of a Congress, for even his first two years. After that; well, you just don't get further apart politically than Gingrich is from Pelosi.


That's a fair assumption and one of the main reasons I still hesitate to vote for Obama. But the reason I asked the question is that based on Obama's *proposed* plan, even the most wealthy will at worst go back to paying pre-Bush cut tax rates (39% on revenue over $250K vs. 36%). The battle cry around this Joe the Plumber scenario is that Obama is crushing the American Dream, punishing those who become successful through their own hard work. I don't see how an additional 3% AFTER your first $250K stifles small business development, but I think there's good discussion to be had on the subject if we could get past the irrelevant character assassination bullshit.

[FromWayDowntown]

and been speaker when Bush was pres.; we would be in a MUCH different place right now.

Iran? :)

[101A]

That's a fair assumption and one of the main reasons I still hesitate to vote for Obama. But the reason I asked the question is that based on Obama's *proposed* plan, even the most wealthy will at worst go back to paying pre-Bush cut tax rates (39% on revenue over $250K vs. 36%). The battle cry around this Joe the Plumber scenario is that Obama is crushing the American Dream, punishing those who become successful through their own hard work.

The actual proposal's are almost silly how close they are to one another. 3 percentage points for the top bracket vs. what it is now; overall tax revenues LOWER than they were under Clinton; Obama's PROPOSALS aren't the fear addressed in the article. The Congress has shown itself far left of Obama's proposals; and have shown a desire to want to govern that way; A platform that far left, however is unelectable for Obama. Potential problem being, we might be left with OBAMA having to put the breaks on crazy ass left wing proposals out of the House/Senate. Remember, Pelosi represents the People's Republic of San Francisco!!!! Then, you throw in that, in fact, McCain is RIGHT when he says Obama has never been cross-wise with the leadership of his party; and you can see a worse-case scenario (for all but the most liberal) developing very quickly.

[101A]

Iran? :)


At least; maybe Syria, too.

[Tully365]

:flag::whine

How can Obama hate the working class and small business owners.


Obama explains to Joe in the video very respectfully how the tax situation would play out. It's true that they disagree on this topic, but where in the world do you see any hate in Obama's response? There is none.

[Oh, Gee!!]

It's true that they disagree on this topic, but where in the world do you see any hate in Obama's response? There is none.

don't mind WC--he's just an idiot.

[peewee's lovechild]

He was forced out because, after going after Clinton for a sex scandal he was caught in one of his own. You try to take on the King and fail; well, there's historic precedent for what's gonna happen to you.

Yeah, that's not hypocritical at all.

Man, you're a damn fool.

[Hook Dem]

Ronald Regan said it best......It's not that our democratic friends are liars, it's just that they KNOW a lot of things that are not true!:rollin

[Oh, Gee!!]

Ronald Regan said it best......It's not that our democratic friends are liars, it's just that they KNOW a lot of things that are not true!:rollin

actually, McCain is the one that kept congratulating "Joe the Plumber" for being rich during the 3rd debate, when "Joe the Plumber" is clearly not rich. McCain thought "Joe the Plumber" actually earns $280,000 yearly and owns his own business. Neither of those things are true, but McCain knew them to be facts. Who's Reagan laughing at?