Joe the Plumber was a plant

[Supergirl]

http://citizenworm.wordpress.com/2008/10/16/confirmation-of-identity-and-link-to-keating/

McSame is looking more and more like a douchebag with each ticking second.

[101A]

Good Lord.

So they picked a guy who DOESN'T make 250K, and who owes back taxes as the "plant"?

Sure.

That's a bigger stretch than Obama being born in Kenya.

[JoeChalupa]

I guess joe the plumber won't make it on Angie's list?

[Spurminator]

Good Lord.

So they picked a guy who DOESN'T make 250K, and who owes back taxes as the "plant"?

Sure.

That's a bigger stretch than Obama being born in Kenya.


Knowing that Democrats and the media would tear into Joe's background I'd say it's a very realistic possibility. It doesn't matter if he's a fraud. An Everyman getting ripped apart by the Media and Liberals will embolden McCain-leaning voters.

[Hook Dem]

Lets see now supergirl.....Obama comes into Joe's neighborhood and Joe is the "plant"? I think you look more like a douchebag!:lmao

[peewee's lovechild]

Knowing that Democrats and the media would tear into Joe's background I'd say it's a very realistic possibility. It doesn't matter if he's a fraud. An Everyman getting ripped apart by the Media and Liberals will embolden McCain-leaning voters.

It's awesome how you guys change the subject so very quick.

First, he's the mantra for all those small businesses in American.

Then, when it turns out that he's a hack and owes back taxes and doesn't even have the plan or the money to buy the plumbing business, and when it also turns out that he's not even a damned plumber . . . . republicans make him out to be the poster boy of media abuse and attacks by the Democrats.

What the hell is this bullshit?

Are you really going with this?

He turned out to be a fraud. The media exposed him for this, just like they would anyone else.

Go somewhere else with your bullshit if you have nothing productive to say.

[byrontx]

The tie to Keating is just sweet. Obama should make some ads with this.

[101A]

It's awesome how you guys change the subject so very quick.

First, he's the mantra for all those small businesses in American.

Then, when it turns out that he's a hack and owes back taxes and doesn't even have the plan or the money to buy the plumbing business, and when it also turns out that he's not even a damned plumber . . . . republicans make him out to be the poster boy of media abuse and attacks by the Democrats.

What the hell is this bullshit?

Are you really going with this?

He turned out to be a fraud. The media exposed him for this, just like they would anyone else.

Go somewhere else with your bullshit if you have nothing productive to say.

How is he a fraud? He said he wants to buy the business he has worked at for years. Do you have some evidence that is not true?

[101A]

The tie to Keating is just sweet. Obama should make some ads with this.


Because some guy with the same last name used to work in one of Keating's buildings? You think that will work for Obama?

Hell, McCain should run with the Demcrat congressman's boy that hacked Palin's email account. OBVIOUSLY Obama was behind that - right???!!!

[peewee's lovechild]

How is he a fraud? He said he wants to buy the business he has worked at for years. Do you have some evidence that is not true?

How the hell can he afford to buy his business when he owes back taxes?

The fucker can't afford shit right now.

And, the business has two employees right now, the owner (a certified plumber) and Joe (who is not a plumber). If he were to somehow buy the company from the owner, that would leave him with ZERO plumbers.

What kind of plumbing business has no plumbers working for it?

He's a fraud.

He has no reason to bitch about taxes when he's not even paying taxes right now.

[DarrinS]

Forget the fact that the guy had a valid point and DARED to challenge Lord Obama publicly, he doesn't have a plumbing license and owes back taxes!!!!

:lmao

[JoeChalupa]

I don't get the whole "dared" thing republicans are whining about. He answered the damn question. At least he isn't being shielded like the beloved America's sweetheart Sarah Palin is.

[101A]

I don't get the whole "dared" thing republicans are whining about. He answered the damn question. At least he isn't being shielded like the beloved America's sweetheart Sarah Palin is.



How the hell can he afford to buy his business when he owes back taxes?

The fucker can't afford shit right now.

And, the business has two employees right now, the owner (a certified plumber) and Joe (who is not a plumber). If he were to somehow buy the company from the owner, that would leave him with ZERO plumbers.

What kind of plumbing business has no plumbers working for it?

He's a fraud.

He has no reason to bitch about taxes when he's not even paying taxes right now.

It's language like that that causes people to use the word "dared".

[Supergirl]

"According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the mean annual wage for plumbers, pipefitters and steamfitters in the United States in 2007 was $47,350."

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/10/16/biden-questions-notion-of-this-guy-joe-the-plumber/

Also, he's not actually a licensed plumber.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/us_elections_2008/7675278.stm

[Spurminator]

It's awesome how you guys change the subject so very quick.

First, he's the mantra for all those small businesses in American.

Then, when it turns out that he's a hack and owes back taxes and doesn't even have the plan or the money to buy the plumbing business, and when it also turns out that he's not even a damned plumber . . . . republicans make him out to be the poster boy of media abuse and attacks by the Democrats.

What the hell is this bullshit?

Are you really going with this?

He turned out to be a fraud. The media exposed him for this, just like they would anyone else.

Go somewhere else with your bullshit if you have nothing productive to say.

:lol

Useful idiot.

[Spurminator]

"According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the mean annual wage for plumbers, pipefitters and steamfitters in the United States in 2007 was $47,350."

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/10/16/biden-questions-notion-of-this-guy-joe-the-plumber/

Also, he's not actually a licensed plumber.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/us_elections_2008/7675278.stm

You too.

[Spurminator]

Anyone know if this guy has a criminal record? This is crucial info. Dig! Dig!

[peewee's lovechild]

:lol

Useful idiot.

That's your retort?

Is that it?

[peewee's lovechild]

Forget the fact that the guy had a valid point and DARED to challenge Lord Obama publicly, he doesn't have a plumbing license and owes back taxes!!!!

:lmao

So, I should pretend that I'm something I'm not just to make a valid point and no one should question what I'm pretending to be because I'm making a valid point?

So, I won't look like a complete douchebag doing so?

Man, y'all's desperation is getting pretty bad.

[DarrinS]

I don't get the whole "dared" thing republicans are whining about. He answered the damn question. At least he isn't being shielded like the beloved America's sweetheart Sarah Palin is.


Finding Joe Biden is like playing Where's Waldo. He could be running down the street on fire and the press wouldn't pay any attention. But Palin will do an interview the lowest rated anchor woman and they'll suspend regular programming.

[JoeChalupa]

Finding Joe Biden is like playing Where's Waldo. He could be running down the street on fire and the press wouldn't pay any attention. But Palin will do an interview the lowest rated anchor woman and they'll suspend regular programming.

Of course, Sarah speaking to any newsmedia, excluding FoxNews, is news worthy since she's kept in such a tight bubble.

[Spurminator]

That's your retort?

Is that it?


It's all I need. You continue to illustrate my point with every post.

[peewee's lovechild]

It's all I need. You continue to illustrate my point with every post.

Yeah, you're a witty one.

[peewee's lovechild]

Finding Joe Biden is like playing Where's Waldo. He could be running down the street on fire and the press wouldn't pay any attention. But Palin will do an interview the lowest rated anchor woman and they'll suspend regular programming.

Of course they want to interview her, with all the retarded things she says it's pure gold.

[clambake]

it would have been nice if he hadn't fabricated his whole life to the nation.

[boutons_]

"So they picked a guy who DOESN'T make 250K, and who owes back taxes as the "plant"? "

GOP doesn't vet: the walking insult aka pitbull bitch

[DarkReign]

Finding Joe Biden is like playing Where's Waldo. He could be running down the street on fire and the press wouldn't pay any attention. But Palin will do an interview the lowest rated anchor woman and they'll suspend regular programming.

What?! Maybe I missed your sarcasm, but are you trying to insinuate Biden is hard to find or that he is somehow ducking the media?

[Spurminator]

Yeah, you're a witty one.

It's not about wit, you fucking moron.

Let me put it in big, bold National Enquirer Headline letters so you'll understand better.

REPUBLICANS WANT YOU TO RIP APART JOE THE PLUMBER

[clambake]

It's not about wit, you fucking moron.

Let me put it in big, bold National Enquirer Headline letters so you'll understand better.

REPUBLICANS WANT YOU TO RIP APART JOE THE PLUMBER

why do republicans love a guy that lied about his whole life to pander for mccain?

[DarrinS]

What?! Maybe I missed your sarcasm, but are you trying to insinuate Biden is hard to find or that he is somehow ducking the media?



No, he's not ducking the media, the media just doesn't appear to be interested in anything he does.


The man said FDR went on TV the day after the market crash of 1929 and Katie Couric didn't bat an eyelash.

[Spurminator]

why do republicans love a guy that lied about his whole life to pander for mccain?

Because you hate him.

[clambake]

Because you hate him.

i don't hate things that aren't real.

[Crookshanks]

You stupid libs are missing the entire point of "Joe the plumber". It isn't about him PERSONALLY, it's that he stands for small businesses everywhere and those people who have a dream to some day own a small business. Obama's comment about spreading the wealth was the real story - but the libs and the media would rather rip apart an average guy who's just trying to better his life instead of talking about Obama's socialist views and agenda!

And you don't do yourself any favors by comparing Biden to Palin. His latest soundbite - "Obama's three-word answer - J-O-B-S". And you're saying Palin sounds ignorant?

[romad_20]

No, he's not ducking the media, the media just doesn't appear to be interested in anything he does.


The man said FDR went on TV the day after the market crash of 1929 and Katie Couric didn't bat an eyelash.

Did he really say that? :lol That's pretty stupid but he is known for being a gaff machine. I think he's done pretty well keeping his foot out of his mouth, considering things.

I really think the reason is everyone knows the guy and he's run for president twice. I think the public, right or wrong, feels like they have an understanding who he is. Palin on the other hand wasn't even vetted by her own party that well, much less the public. Fair or unfair, that's just the way it is. If Palin somehow becomes a force in the Republican party and runs for President or the Senate later on, I don't think she would be under the same scrutiny as she was this time because the public would have a better feel for her off the bat.

[Spurminator]

i don't hate things that aren't real.

Reality is irrelevant.

[ratm1221]

i don't hate things that aren't real.

:lmao

[Spurminator]

You stupid libs are missing the entire point of "Joe the plumber". It isn't about him PERSONALLY, it's that he stands for small businesses everywhere and those people who have a dream to some day own a small business. Obama's comment about spreading the wealth was the real story - but the libs and the media would rather rip apart an average guy who's just trying to better his life instead of talking about Obama's socialist views and agenda!

And you don't do yourself any favors by comparing Biden to Palin. His latest soundbite - "Obama's three-word answer - J-O-B-S". And you're saying Palin sounds ignorant?


You see what I'm talking about?

[clambake]

Reality is irrelevant.

like joe's character role.

[DarkReign]

Did he really say that? :lol That's pretty stupid but he is known for being a gaff machine. I think he's done pretty well keeping his foot out of his mouth, considering things.

Biden has a habit of making an ass of himself.

From the FDR comment, to the 3 letter word (jobs) to other brain-farts that do nothing but embarass him as an orator.

But since our current POTUS has trouble with simple pronounciation, the Biden's of the political world are getting their shot.


I really think the reason is everyone knows the guy and he's run for president twice. I think the public, right or wrong, feels like they have an understanding who he is. Palin on the other hand wasn't even vetted by her own party that well, much less the public. Fair or unfair, that's just the way it is. If Palin somehow becomes a force in the Republican party and runs for President or the Senate later on, I don't think she would be under the same scrutiny as she was this time because the public would have a better feel for her off the bat.

This is the better point. While Biden may be a gaff machine (he is), he at least knows his shit when it comes to foreign policy. Bar none. Agree or disagree with him, thats completely acceptable....but at least he knows wtf hes talking about.

Palin on the other hand....well, to put it bluntly, imo, her selection is the second most important reason McCain is going to lose this election (first reason being a Republican during an economic crisis....guilty by association with Bush Doctrine).

[clambake]

why are republicans worried about something that joe isn't?

[Spurminator]

like joe's character role.

Then instead of explaining why Joe doesn't fit the archetype the McCain campaign is trying to portray him under, you should explain why the archetype itself is false.

[clambake]

Then instead of explaining why Joe doesn't fit the archetype the McCain campaign is trying to portray him under, you should explain why the archetype itself is false.

:lol you gun clingers are sweating bullets.

[DarkReign]

And you don't do yourself any favors by comparing Biden to Palin. His latest soundbite - "Obama's three-word answer - J-O-B-S". And you're saying Palin sounds ignorant?

Ha....comparing Biden's gaffes with Palin's actual knowledge isnt much of a comparison at all....unless of course youre a red partisan who would defend the least intellligent person in the world, so long as theyre Republican.

Cmon, this nonsense has to stop. Bust Biden's balls about his policies, his record, his.....anything of merit or otherwise.

But lets not pretend he and Palin are even playing on the same fucking planet when it comes to actual experience, knowledge or intelligence. She displays less political acumen than most members here at ST, and thats a bit disconcerting seeing as she is the VP to guy who has (imo) a very good chance to die in office.

[Anti.Hero]

Lol at the pathetic left trying to attack this guy.


This dude is 100x more articulate on conservative values than McCain has been in 2 years.


Joe the Plumber '08.

[Spurminator]

:lol you gun clingers are sweating bullets.

:bang

[Spurminator]

Lol at the pathetic left trying to attack this guy..

[DarkReign]

No, he's not ducking the media, the media just doesn't appear to be interested in anything he does.


The man said FDR went on TV the day after the market crash of 1929 and Katie Couric didn't bat an eyelash.

I figured I misread on that. Totally fair point.

But I have brought this up before in regards to the VP double standard and I dont think it can be put more simply.

Biden is a known quantity, therefore he gets a free pass from the press.

Palin is anything but a known quantity, therefore no free pass.

[clambake]

how is the actor known as "joe" going to get a business loan with a lien on his property?

[Anti.Hero]

I figured I misread on that. Totally fair point.

But I have brought this up before in regards to the VP double standard and I dont think it can be put more simply.

Biden is a known quantity, therefore he gets a free pass from the press.

Palin is anything but a known quantity, therefore no free pass.

Wrong.

Biden is a liberal, Palin is a conservative.

[Spurminator]

how is the actor known as "joe" going to get a business loan with a lien on his property?

What about that criminal record? Also, I heard he had a homosexual encounter in college. Go find more on that.

[clambake]

What about that criminal record? Also, I heard he had a homosexual encounter in college. Go find more on that.

tell me what play he was in and i'll google it. :toast

[Spurminator]

I know you would.

[peewee's lovechild]

It's not about wit, you fucking moron.

Let me put it in big, bold National Enquirer Headline letters so you'll understand better.

REPUBLICANS WANT YOU TO RIP APART JOE THE PLUMBER


First of all . . . you're quoting the National Enquirer??

Damn, that's laughable.

Secondly, THE MEDIA is doing this!!
He chose to put his whole life out there. Whatever comes out of it is entirely his doing.

The Media does not = The DNC.

You are very much the wit.

[Spurminator]

First of all . . . you're quoting the National Enquirer??

Damn, that's laughable.

Um, no. I'm not quoting the National Enquirer. "big, bold National Enquirer Headline letters"

Would a photo of Amy Winehouse help? I'm running out of ideas for how to communicate with you.



Secondly, THE MEDIA is doing this!!
He chose to put his whole life out there. Whatever comes out of it is entirely his doing.

Well I disagree with the idea that sudden public figures should be subject to thorough vetting into their personal lives but that's not the point anyway... the point is Republicans WANT this to happen.

And the MSM aren't the only ones doing it.



The Media does not = The DNC.

Try telling that to Crookshanks and voters like her.



You are very much the wit.

And you are the kind of useful idiot who might just find a way to blow this election for the Democrats.

[romad_20]

Wrong.

Biden is a liberal, Palin is a conservative.

This is bs. When you've got conservatives coming out of the woodwork saying she's not qualified, its stupid to blame that on the "liberal" media. A lot of people on both sides of the political game are saying the same things about her.

[clambake]

why do conservatives always pretend to be something they aren't?

[Anti.Hero]

why do conservatives always pretend to be something they aren't?

Why can't libtards realize what their leaders true motives are and how they are completely different than what their sheep believe they are trying to accomplish?

[peewee's lovechild]

Um, no. I'm not quoting the National Enquirer. "big, bold National Enquirer Headline letters"

Would a photo of Amy Winehouse help? I'm running out of ideas for how to communicate with you.


So, big bold letters make points for you?

Try using Alphabet blocks.




Try telling that to Crookshanks and voters like her.


She runs the DNC?




And you are the kind of useful idiot who might just find a way to blow this election for the Democrats.


I run the DNC?

I didn't realize I have any pull whatsoever with the Democratic Party.


You're making all sorts of since here.

I wish to stand next to you so I can bask in the glow of your absolute genius.

[Spurminator]

I don't know how I can be any more clear.

[clambake]

Why can't libtards realize what their leaders true motives are
what are they? (what does this have to do with "joe"?)

and how they are completely different than what their sheep believe they are trying to accomplish?
what do sheep think?

[peewee's lovechild]

I don't know how I can be any more clear.

Post another headline by the National Enquirer.

Or, better yet, The Sun or US Magazine.

[Spurminator]

I have not posted a headline by the National Enquirer.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Seems like Joe is working his way out of the news cycle.

[clambake]

do you need a licence to be a pretend plumber?

[Supergirl]

"About 100 union plumbers from a Boston-based local plan to knock on union members' doors Saturday in Portsmouth, N.H., and "Joe the Plumber" is certain to be a topic of conversation, said Kevin L. Cotter, business manager of Local 12 Plumbers and Gasfitters union.

The group will be urging union members to vote for Obama and Democratic US Senate candidate Jeanne Shaheen, who is challenging John Sununu, the Republican incumbent.

"He's impersonating a plumber," Cotter said, referring to Joe Wurzelbacher, the Ohio man who confronted Obama about his tax plans and who became a media celebrity after John McCain repeatedly referred to him during the presidential debate Wednesday night.

Wurzelbacher, however, has paid a price for his moments of fame; news media reports have said he does not hold a plumber's license, has been hit with a tax lien, and would probably qualify for a tax cut under Obama's campaign proposal.

"We will definitely be talking about 'Joe the Plumber,' " said Cotter, whose international union was the first to endorse Obama during his run for the Democratic nomination.

The union's local in Wurzelbacher's neck of the woods plans an event Sunday, timed with McCain's visit to Toledo, to disavow Joe the plumber, too. "Actual plumbers will share their concerns with several of Senator McCain’s proposals including his plan to tax employer-based health care insurance, his tax proposal which favors the wealthy over working Ohioans and other issues that will impact working families," the local said."

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2008/10/plumbers_disavo.html

[101A]

"About 100 union plumbers from a Boston-based local plan to knock on union members' doors Saturday in Portsmouth, N.H., and "Joe the Plumber" is certain to be a topic of conversation, said Kevin L. Cotter, business manager of Local 12 Plumbers and Gasfitters union.

The group will be urging union members to vote for Obama and Democratic US Senate candidate Jeanne Shaheen, who is challenging John Sununu, the Republican incumbent.

"He's impersonating a plumber," Cotter said, referring to Joe Wurzelbacher, the Ohio man who confronted Obama about his tax plans and who became a media celebrity after John McCain repeatedly referred to him during the presidential debate Wednesday night.

Wurzelbacher, however, has paid a price for his moments of fame; news media reports have said he does not hold a plumber's license, has been hit with a tax lien, and would probably qualify for a tax cut under Obama's campaign proposal.

"We will definitely be talking about 'Joe the Plumber,' " said Cotter, whose international union was the first to endorse Obama during his run for the Democratic nomination.

The union's local in Wurzelbacher's neck of the woods plans an event Sunday, timed with McCain's visit to Toledo, to disavow Joe the plumber, too. "Actual plumbers will share their concerns with several of Senator McCain’s proposals including his plan to tax employer-based health care insurance, his tax proposal which favors the wealthy over working Ohioans and other issues that will impact working families," the local said."

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2008/10/plumbers_disavo.html

Shock.

A Union supporting Obama?

Sure they do, when he wants to do away with secret ballots.

Now THAT'S American!

BTW, would some liberal like to defend that position?

[1369]

"Joe The Plumber" does not hold a commercial license. Doesn't need one to be a residential plumber in Ohio IIRC.

[ratm1221]

"About 100 union plumbers from a Boston-based local plan to knock on union members' doors Saturday in Portsmouth, N.H., and "Joe the Plumber" is certain to be a topic of conversation, said Kevin L. Cotter, business manager of Local 12 Plumbers and Gasfitters union.

The group will be urging union members to vote for Obama and Democratic US Senate candidate Jeanne Shaheen, who is challenging John Sununu, the Republican incumbent.

"He's impersonating a plumber," Cotter said, referring to Joe Wurzelbacher, the Ohio man who confronted Obama about his tax plans and who became a media celebrity after John McCain repeatedly referred to him during the presidential debate Wednesday night.

Wurzelbacher, however, has paid a price for his moments of fame; news media reports have said he does not hold a plumber's license, has been hit with a tax lien, and would probably qualify for a tax cut under Obama's campaign proposal.

"We will definitely be talking about 'Joe the Plumber,' " said Cotter, whose international union was the first to endorse Obama during his run for the Democratic nomination.

The union's local in Wurzelbacher's neck of the woods plans an event Sunday, timed with McCain's visit to Toledo, to disavow Joe the plumber, too. "Actual plumbers will share their concerns with several of Senator McCain’s proposals including his plan to tax employer-based health care insurance, his tax proposal which favors the wealthy over working Ohioans and other issues that will impact working families," the local said."

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2008/10/plumbers_disavo.html

This guy may never get another job as a plumber again. The plumbers union is democrat to the core.

[Anti.Hero]

Fuck unions.

[DarrinS]

Fuck unions.


+1

[PM5K]

You stupid libs are missing the entire point of "Joe the plumber". It isn't about him PERSONALLY, it's that he stands for small businesses everywhere and those people who have a dream to some day own a small business.

The problem with that is that "Joe The Plumber" would actually benefit from Obamas tax plan, his tax plan would keep more money in Joe's pockets, and potential customers of Joe, which would help joe actually get closer to his dream of owning his own business sooner.

That's why this has blown up in John McCains face, Joe isn't a plumber and the largest union of plumbers in the United States (the real Joe plumbers) actually supports Obama.

[DarkReign]

Wrong.

Biden is a liberal, Palin is a conservative.

Yeah, thats one dumbass, partisan way to look at it I guess.

[DarrinS]

Since Joe the Plumber was a fake person, was obama's "spread the wealth" remark a fake comment?

[ChumpDumper]

No, that was real.

[Anti.Hero]

Yeah, thats one dumbass, partisan way to look at it I guess.

There is no other way to explain why the majority ignore his gaffe after gaffe.

[Anti.Hero]

If Joe was a plant he would have been black.




disclaimer** does not work for conservative supreme court appointees

[ratm1221]

Since Joe the Plumber was a fake person, was obama's "spread the wealth" remark a fake comment?

Did I see a post where you said you were going to vote for Obama?

Or are you even registered to vote? Let me guess your a plumber too.

[ChumpDumper]

There is no other way to explain why the majority ignore his gaffe after gaffe.It's the sheer volume of his gaffes that have made them no longer newsworthy.

[RandomGuy]

First, he's the mantra for all those small businesses in American.

Why do you keep using that word? I do not think it means what you think it means.

[Findog]

It's the sheer volume of his gaffes that have made them no longer newsworthy.

And the fact that even when he makes a gaffe, it's still easy to understand the point that he was trying to make.

[DarrinS]

And the fact that even when he makes a gaffe, it's still easy to understand the point that he was trying to make.



Biden at a blind orphanage: "Hey kids! How do I look?"

[clambake]

Biden at a blind orphanage: "Hey kids! How do I look?"

now thats funny. :lol

[Extra Stout]

What Republicans are trying to show with this little stunt is the spectre of an regular guy being ripped apart by the media and other liberal activists by daring to question Barack Obama. The tax issue is a red herring.

[clambake]

What Republicans are trying to show with this little stunt is the spectre of an regular guy being ripped apart by the media and other liberal activists by daring to question Barack Obama. The tax issue is a red herring.

yeah, agree. i don't get it. i thought he was a fine actor.

[jochhejaam]

"Joe The Plumber" does not hold a commercial license. Doesn't need one to be a residential plumber in Ohio IIRC.

Thanks, there are quite a few people chipping in on this topic with brains.

Being a licensed plumber doesn't mean you're a good plumber, my son-in-law works for Ben Franlkin Plumbing outside of Charlotte, N.C., he's a helluva plumber, will make about $100,000 this year (works his butt off), and although he used to work for as a pipefitter/plumber apprentice in Toledo (my hometown), and he's unlicensed.

The point is/was the additional taxes Obama wants to levy on those making over 250 thousand;
At 36% they got you for $90,000 in Federal Tax
At 39% (Obama's rate, they get you for an additional $7,500, and for what purpose, to spread around to those who don't earn as much as you, including a large population of lard butts.

So, they now have Joe for $97,500 in Federal Tax;
Take away and additional 8% in State and City Tax and the tax-man gets another $20,000;
That's $117,000 in taxes so far.
Take another 7.5% in SS and they've got another $18,750;
They now have taken $135,750 out of your original $250,000
Your present net is $114,250

Subtract medical, property taxes, etc, and Joe doesn't have a whole lot left of the original $250,000.

That's criminal! Is it any wonder Joe's pissed off?
Heck, I'm pissed off for the Joe's in the Country!



(you mathematicians correct me if I went wrong with the figures)


Obama's definitely got a lock on the gimme-more-handouts voter.

[Hook Dem]

Thanks, there are quite a few people chipping in on this topic with brains.

Being a licensed plumber doesn't mean you're a good plumber, my son-in-law works for Ben Franlkin Plumbing outside of Charlotte, N.C., he's a helluva plumber, will make about $100,000 this year (works his butt off), and although he used to work for as a pipefitter/plumber apprentice in Toledo (my hometown), and he's unlicensed.

The point is/was the additional taxes Obama wants to levy on those making over 250 thousand;
At 36% they got you for $90,000 in Federal Tax
At 39% (Obama's rate, they get you for an additional $7,500, and for what purpose, to spread around to those who don't earn as much as you, including a large population of lard butts.

So, they now have Joe for $97,500 in Federal Tax;
Take away and additional 8% in State and City Tax and the tax-man gets another $20,000;
That's $117,000 in taxes so far.
Take another 7.5% in SS and they've got another $18,750;
They now have taken $135,750 out of your original $250,000
Your present net is $114,250

Subtract medical, property taxes, etc, and Joe doesn't have a whole lot left of the original $250,000.

That's criminal! Is it any wonder Joe's pissed off?
Heck, I'm pissed off for the Joe's in the Country!



(you mathematicians correct me if I went wrong with the figures)


Obama's definitely got a lock on the gimme-more-handouts voter.

Best post of the entire thread!

[Mr. Peabody]

Thanks, there are quite a few people chipping in on this topic with brains.

Being a licensed plumber doesn't mean you're a good plumber, my son-in-law works for Ben Franlkin Plumbing outside of Charlotte, N.C., he's a helluva plumber, will make about $100,000 this year (works his butt off), and although he used to work for as a pipefitter/plumber apprentice in Toledo (my hometown), and he's unlicensed.

The point is/was the additional taxes Obama wants to levy on those making over 250 thousand;
At 36% they got you for $90,000 in Federal Tax
At 39% (Obama's rate, they get you for an additional $7,500, and for what purpose, to spread around to those who don't earn as much as you, including a large population of lard butts.

So, they now have Joe for $97,500 in Federal Tax;
Take away and additional 8% in State and City Tax and the tax-man gets another $20,000;
That's $117,000 in taxes so far.
Take another 7.5% in SS and they've got another $18,750;
They now have taken $135,750 out of your original $250,000
Your present net is $114,250

Subtract medical, property taxes, etc, and Joe doesn't have a whole lot left of the original $250,000.

That's criminal! Is it any wonder Joe's pissed off?
Heck, I'm pissed off for the Joe's in the Country!



(you mathematicians correct me if I went wrong with the figures)


Obama's definitely got a lock on the gimme-more-handouts voter.

I don't think your figures are correct. You say that under Obama's plan people making $250,000 would pay an additional $7,500. The Washington Post says that according to the Tax Policy Center, a joint project of the Urban Institute and the Brookings Institution the difference would be around $12.

http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2008/06/12/GR2008061200193.gif

[Mr. Peabody]

I think what people don't understand is that under Obama's plan, you only pay the higher rate on any income that is over the $250,000 threshold. So if you make $255,000, you pay an additional 3% on the $5,000 that is over the $250,000 threshold and not on the entire $255,000.

So, really, Joe's hypothetical is not the best one to use. At $250,000, the tax increase he would see would be minuscule.

Obama explained this to Joe the Plumber himself, but Joe didn't seem like he wanted to listen to the answer. He was too intent on making his next point.

vFC9jv9jfoA

[PM5K]

Obama explained this to Joe the Plumber himself, but Joe didn't seem like he wanted to listen to the answer.

To me that was the most annoying part of the whole "Joe The Plumber" thing.

Joe claimed that Obama tap danced around the issue like Sammy Davis Jr, when in fact Obama clearly answered his HYPOTHETICAL question, if anyone was tap dancing it was Joe "The Plumber".

Having said that, and going by what Obama said, those figures above aren't correct.

The ammount over 250K would be taxed at 39 rather than 36 percent, I can't say how much the ammount under 250K would be taxed, but it's not 39 percent.

[jochhejaam]

I think what people don't understand is that under Obama's plan, you only pay the higher rate on any income that is over the $250,000 threshold. So if you make $255,000, you pay an additional 3% on the $5,000 that is over the $250,000 threshold and not on the entire $255,000.

So, really, Joe's hypothetical is not the best one to use. At $250,000, the tax increase he would see would be minuscule.


Okay, I understand that what you’re saying about being taxed an additional 3% on income above $250,000, but Obama’s numbers while talking to Joe were 36% at 250 thousand and 39% for income over 250 thousand. If his numbers are right, and I hope he’d know what his own tax plan says, then his claim of a reduction in taxes doesn’t jive with the current tax rates;
Currently - Income from $164,000 - $357,000 is taxed at the rate of 33%
Currently - Income at $357,000 + is taxed at a 35% rate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States

Both of the current rates on equal amounts of income are well below Obama’s numbers he gave to Joe of 36% at $250,000 and 39% over that amount.

Either way, Joe and friends are getting’ hit, and hit hard, with Obama’s tax plan. That’s a huge tax increase over the current rates and much worse than the scenario I presented in my previous post.


They’re paying more than their fair share, and overtaxing through the implementation of higher rates in order to “spread the wealth around” is tantamount to legislating taxpayer robbery.

How about spending less by downsizing Government (I don’t know if it’s true, but a recent radio talk show stated that there are currently 14,000,000 people working for the Government - I assume they are including State and City Government employees in with the Federal Employees), by freezing most Agencies funding at their current levels (that affects me), using line-item veto on the massive amounts of taxpayer subsidized earmarks/pork, and keeping the current tax rates right where they are?






Midnight here, I'm through for the night.

[jochhejaam]

Just one more thing, if the current tax rates run from 10% to 35%, why did Obama tell Joe that a flat tax rate of 40% would be needed to meen expenditures?

One would logically conclude that he plans on raising spending to a level that would call for a 40% flat tax rate. That equates to raising both taxes and spending to unprecendented levels.

[Spurminator]

but Obama’s numbers while talking to Joe were 36% at 250 thousand and 39% for income over 250 thousand. If his numbers are right, and I hope he’d know what his own tax plan says, then his claim of a reduction in taxes doesn’t jive with the current tax rates;
Currently - Income from $164,000 - $357,000 is taxed at the rate of 33%
Currently - Income at $357,000 + is taxed at a 35% rate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_..._United_States

Both of the current rates on equal amounts of income are well below Obama’s numbers he gave to Joe of 36% at $250,000 and 39% over that amount.


He said, "If your revenue is above 250, then from 250 down, your taxes are going to stay the same. Now it is true that for, say, 250 up... from 250 to 300 or so (interrupted/cross talk) So for that additional amount, you'd go from 36 to 39 percent, which is what it was under Bill Clinton."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/george-spyros/joe-the-plumber-obama-ori_b_135125.html

[Mr. Peabody]

Either way, Joe and friends are getting’ hit, and hit hard, with Obama’s tax plan. That’s a huge tax increase over the current rates and much worse than the scenario I presented in my previous post.


Again, I don't think you are correct on this issue.

October 16, 2008
How Much Would Joe the Plumber Pay Under Obama's Tax Plan?
by Mark Robyn and Gerald Prante

Link (http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/printer/23780.html)

So how much would Joe the Plumber pay under Obama's tax plan? It's a difficult question to answer given that the tax code is so complicated and that you have to know so many details about a person to arrive at an answer (there will probably be a tax law passed that makes your dog's name affect your tax liability at some point). But we have made simple assumptions about Joe the Plumber to show how he would be impacted by Sen. Obama's tax increases in tax year 2009. Assumptions are explained below.

Adjusted Gross Income (after S.E. tax adjustment)

$269,318 Obama

$269,318 McCain/Current Law

Itemized Deductions less phase-out

$49,420 Obama

$48,975 McCain/Current Law

Personal Exemptions less phase-out

$6,132 Obama

$6,911 McCain/Current Law

Taxable Income

$213,766 Obama

$213,433 McCain/Current Law

Final Tax Bill

$48,511 Obama

$48,254 McCain/Current Law

Net Difference: Under these assumptions, Joe the Plumber would pay $257 more in taxes under Obama in 2009 than under McCain or current law. This is different from a previous quick estimate we did that merely took $280,000 as AGI and not as self-employment income. Using $280,000 as self-employment income as opposed to AGI gives Joe a lower tax bill because his taxable income is lower due to the half self-employment tax deduction. This puts less of his income at the fifth tax bracket (the 33/36 percent bracket) and thereby less of a tax hike under Obama.

Note that running the numbers for tax year 2011 under similar assumptions as below for 2009 (after adjusting various parameters for inflation assuming a rather significant 5 percent income growth for Joe and a 5 percent inflation rate), the tax liabilities under the various candidates' plans are as follows: Under McCain, Joe the Plumber would pay $56,731 in 2011. Under Obama, Joe the Plumber would pay $58,371 in 2011. That means his tax liability would be about $1,640 lower under McCain compared to Obama in 2011. (Income is assumed to be $309,000 in 2011 and tax parameters are adjusted accordingly.)

Note: These figures have been updated slightly to reflect the 2009 tax parameter for the itemized deduction phase-out threshold of $166,800 as opposed to the previous assumption of $165,100.

Assumptions

(1) Tax Year 2009
(2) AMT patch for 2009 (exemption for MFJ is $75,000)
(3) $20,000 in state and local taxes
(4) $30,000 in other itemized deductions
(5) $280,000 in small business income (no other income sources) -- note that this is net income, not revenue. If Joe made $280,000 in revenue and say $180,000 in net income, he wouldn't face an average tax hike at all under Obama.
(6) Married Filing Jointly – no kids
(7) No payroll tax change from either candidate
(8) Does not account for Obama’s special capital gains provisions for small business or McCain’s expensing provision
(9) Ignores health care provisions of the two candidates (we don’t know enough about Joe and his wife to make any judgments on this issue)
(10) No credits
(11) Assumes Obama sets PEP/Pease threshold for 2009 at $250,000 for joint returns
(12) Assumes McCain leaves PEP/Pease alone for 2009
(13) Assumes Obama raises 33 percent marginal tax rate to 36 percent in 2009, while McCain leaves it alone.

Assuming his income is $280,000, he pays an additional $257 under Obama's plan versus current plan/McCain plan. I wouldn't call that getting hit hard and a huge tax increase compared to current rates. Also, I don't see how it's a worse scenario than you initially had in your post. Initially, you said he would be paying an additional $7,500, when it turned out to be much, much less. How is paying almost nothing worse than paying $7,500?

[Nbadan]

Thanks, there are quite a few people chipping in on this topic with brains.

Being a licensed plumber doesn't mean you're a good plumber, my son-in-law works for Ben Franlkin Plumbing outside of Charlotte, N.C., he's a helluva plumber, will make about $100,000 this year (works his butt off), and although he used to work for as a pipefitter/plumber apprentice in Toledo (my hometown), and he's unlicensed.

The point is/was the additional taxes Obama wants to levy on those making over 250 thousand;
At 36% they got you for $90,000 in Federal Tax
At 39% (Obama's rate, they get you for an additional $7,500, and for what purpose, to spread around to those who don't earn as much as you, including a large population of lard butts.

Nobody pays a 36% Fed effective tax rate....your post is missing personal and business deductions, child credit exceptions and state income tax deductions..retirement contribution credits and exceptions....I'd be surprised if after all these deductions and tax credits, Joe, a real plumber, winds up paying hardly any Federal tax....

[Nbadan]

Joe the Plumber owes Mesa AZ $700 in traffic tickets, and his driver's license is suspended...

[Nbadan]

Wasn't Joe the asshat who invited all the scrutiny into his life in the first place?


"The media's worried about whether I've paid my taxes, they're worried about any number of silly things that have nothing to do with America," Wurzelbacher told the former Republican presidential hopeful on his show, "Huckabee."

Wurzelbacher said he felt terrible after reading some of the criticism of himself posted online.

"I felt about that small," he said. "I mean I really did."

-snip-

Wurzelbacher became famous after he met Obama and said the Democrat's tax proposal could keep him from buying the two-man plumbing company where he works. However, reports of Wurzelbacher's annual earnings suggest he would receive a tax cut rather than an increase under Obama's plan.

-snip-

Wurzelbacher said he agreed to appear on the show after he received phone calls from friends serving in the military who voiced their support.

Yahoo (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081019/ap_on_re_us/joe_the_plumber_media)

....this ass-clown wanted his 15 minutes of fame and he got it and now he's whining because the truth about him is coming out...

[TheMadHatter]

Can the McCain camp do anything right?

He's a fucking Republican, they're supposed to be good at this shit.....

[boutons_]

Here's Krugman with Real Ohio Plumbers' stats:

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/misc/logoprinter.gif (http://www.nytimes.com/)
October 20, 2008

The Real Plumbers of Ohio
By Paul Krugman (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/opinion/editorialsandoped/oped/columnists/paulkrugman/index.html?inline=nyt-per)


Forty years ago, Richard Nixon made a remarkable marketing discovery. By exploiting America’s divisions — divisions over Vietnam, divisions over cultural change and, above all, racial divisions — he was able to reinvent the Republican brand. The party of plutocrats was repackaged as the party of the “silent majority,” the regular guys — white guys, it went without saying — who didn’t like the social changes taking place.

It was a winning formula. And the great thing was that the new packaging didn’t require any change in the product’s actual contents — in fact, the G.O.P. was able to keep winning elections even as its actual policies became more pro-plutocrat, and less favorable to working Americans, than ever.

John McCain’s strategy, in this final stretch, is based on the belief that the old formula still has life in it.

Thus we have Sarah Palin expressing her joy at visiting the “pro-America” parts of the country — yep, we’re all traitors here in central New Jersey. Meanwhile we’ve got Mr. McCain making Samuel J. Wurzelbacher, a k a Joe the Plumber — who had confronted Barack Obama on the campaign trail, alleging that the Democratic candidate would raise his taxes — the centerpiece of his attack on Mr. Obama’s economic proposals.

And when it turned out that the right’s new icon had a few issues, like not being licensed and comparing Mr. Obama to Sammy Davis Jr., conservatives played victim: see how much those snooty elitists hate the common man?

But what’s really happening to the plumbers of Ohio, and to working Americans in general?

First of all, they aren’t making a lot of money. You may recall that in one of the early Democratic debates Charles Gibson of ABC suggested that $200,000 a year was a middle-class income. Tell that to Ohio plumbers: according to the May 2007 occupational earnings report from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average annual income of “plumbers, pipefitters and steamfitters” in Ohio was $47,930.

Second, their real incomes have stagnated or fallen, even in supposedly good years. The Bush administration assured us that the economy was booming in 2007 — but the average Ohio plumber’s income in that 2007 report was only 15.5 percent higher than in the 2000 report, not enough to keep up with the 17.7 percent rise in consumer prices in the Midwest. As Ohio plumbers went, so went the nation: median household income, adjusted for inflation, was lower in 2007 than it had been in 2000.

Third, Ohio plumbers have been having growing trouble getting health insurance, especially if, like many craftsmen, they work for small firms. According to the Kaiser Family Foundation, in 2007 only 45 percent of companies with fewer than 10 employees offered health benefits, down from 57 percent in 2000.

And bear in mind that all these data pertain to 2007 — which was as good as it got in recent years. Now that the “Bush boom,” such as it was, is over, we can see that it achieved a dismal distinction: for the first time on record, an economic expansion failed to raise most Americans’ incomes above their previous peak.

Since then, of course, things have gone rapidly downhill, as millions of working Americans have lost their jobs and their homes. And all indicators suggest that things will get much worse in the months and years ahead.

So what does all this say about the candidates? Who’s really standing up for Ohio’s plumbers?

Mr. McCain claims that Mr. Obama’s policies would lead to economic disaster. But President Bush’s policies have already led to disaster — and whatever he may say, Mr. McCain proposes continuing Mr. Bush’s policies in all essential respects, and he shares Mr. Bush’s anti-government, anti-regulation philosophy.

What about the claim, based on Joe the Plumber’s complaint, that ordinary working Americans would face higher taxes under Mr. Obama? Well, Mr. Obama proposes raising rates on only the top two income tax brackets — and the second-highest bracket for a head of household starts at an income, after deductions, of $182,400 a year.

Maybe there are plumbers out there who earn that much, or who would end up suffering from Mr. Obama’s proposed modest increases in taxes on dividends and capital gains — America is a big country, and there’s probably a high-income plumber with a huge stock market portfolio out there somewhere. But the typical plumber would pay lower, not higher, taxes under an Obama administration, and would have a much better chance of getting health insurance.

I don’t want to suggest that everyone would be better off under the Obama tax plan. Joe the plumber would almost certainly be better off, but Richie the hedge fund manager would take a serious hit.

But that’s the point. Whatever today’s G.O.P. is, it isn’t the party of working Americans.

========

But the stupid bubba's still vote "God, guns,and gays", and get rewarded with decreasing financial rewards while the Repugs enrich the corps and capitalists.

[Wild Cobra]

Fuck unions.
I agree. They hold down good workers to make as little as the lowest common denominator worker, and support those who want to create a "Nanny State" rather than being true Americans.

[Wild Cobra]

Wow...

So many misconceprions out here.

1) Obama went to Joe's residence. He was not a plant.

2) I am unaware that Joe ever said he was a plumber. Just that he worked there and was considering buyuing the company.

3) Why is this about Joe? The question is not invalidated in any way, shape, or form. Obama wants to "Spread the Wealth!"

You guys are just a bumch of Ozobies.

[ratm1221]

Wow...

So many misconceprions out here.

1) Obama went to Joe's residence. He was not a plant.

2) I am unaware that Joe ever said he was a plumber. Just that he worked there and was considering buyuing the company.

3) Why is this about Joe? The question is not invalidated in any way, shape, or form. Obama wants to "Spread the Wealth!"

You guys are just a bumch of Ozobies.

I don't agree that is what McCain was trying to point out here. He was trying to relate Joe the plumber as an average guy making 250k-280k a year that was going to be affected by Obama's plan. When in reality there are very few "average" people that fall in to this category, INCLUDING Joe. So his tactics failed.

[Mr. Peabody]

Wow...

So many misconceprions out here.

1) Obama went to Joe's residence. He was not a plant.

2) I am unaware that Joe ever said he was a plumber. Just that he worked there and was considering buyuing the company.

3) Why is this about Joe? The question is not invalidated in any way, shape, or form. Obama wants to "Spread the Wealth!"

You guys are just a bumch of Ozobies.

I think the biggest misconception here is about how Obama's tax plan would affect the "Joe the Plumber" hypothetical. Someone threw out the number of an additional $7,500 in taxes, but that wasn't true. It's actually less than a dollar of you look at a taxable income of $250,000 like McCain mentioned. At $280,000, the difference was less than $300. No one has really explained how Obama's tax plan is worse for the Joe the Plumber hypothetical.

[Oh, Gee!!]

he said spread the wealth. you're too smart for your own good, peabody.

[Wild Cobra]

I think the biggest misconception here is about how Obama's tax plan would affect the "Joe the Plumber" hypothetical. Someone threw out the number of an additional $7,500 in taxes, but that wasn't true. It's actually less than a dollar of you look at a taxable income of $250,000 like McCain mentioned. At $280,000, the difference was less than $300. No one has really explained how Obama's tax plan is worse for the Joe the Plumber hypothetical.
Well, we are looking at differences of only 3% of $30,000 and other tax changes. The last small business I worked for had about 80 employees and was taxed on millions. A three point increase may not seem bad, but why should they pay more when they are already paying so much? It would have probably added between $200,000 to $300,000 in taxes. That much money does factor into other business decisions.

Bill sold his business. You know why? It was growing faster than he could afford. He needed to borrow money, but didn't have a large enough net income to pay for a large loan. He didn't like the demands by people who could afford to invest. He probably could have afforded a loan if he didn't have to pay so much in taxes. He sold for $34,000,000. Most of that was for the patents rather than physical assets. Not bad, but it would have been nicer if this great company wasn't taken over by a corporation, which didn't manage things worth a shit. I'm glad I left there. It was a great place to work before it was bought out by the competition.

[boutons_]

Joe Plumbers in OH avg less that $50K, so they ALL would pay less taxes under HUSSEIN.

Only plumbers who made over $184K would would see a tax increase.

[Wild Cobra]

You know, regardless what you liberals think, raising taxes reduces that activity. If you want less small business activity, go ahead. Raise their taxes. Want full employment in the USA, Elimanate taxes on employers. With a shortage of workers, wages will go up. Revenues to the goverment will be greater as the employees pay more taxes, replacing the taxes collected from corporations and businesses.

[Wild Cobra]

Joe Plumbers in OH avg less that $50K, so they ALL would pay less taxes under HUSSEIN.

Only plumbers who made over $184K would would see a tax increase.
It just doesn't matter. As a society, we already pay too much in taxes.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Joe Plumbers in OH avg less that $50K, so they ALL would pay less taxes under HUSSEIN.

Only plumbers who made over $184K would would see a tax increase.

Silly libtard. What Joe makes, what he pays in taxes, which pant leg he puts on first in the morning... none of it matters.

What matters is that the Messiah admitted to being a socialist.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Well, we are looking at differences of only 3% of $30,000 and other tax changes. The last small business I worked for had about 80 employees and was taxed on millions. A three point increase may not seem bad, but why should they pay more when they are already paying so much? It would have probably added between $200,000 to $300,000 in taxes. That much money does factor into other business decisions.

Bill sold his business. You know why? It was growing faster than he could afford. He needed to borrow money, but didn't have a large enough net income to pay for a large loan. He didn't like the demands by people who could afford to invest. He probably could have afforded a loan if he didn't have to pay so much in taxes. He sold for $34,000,000. Most of that was for the patents rather than physical assets. Not bad, but it would have been nicer if this great company wasn't taken over by a corporation, which didn't manage things worth a shit. I'm glad I left there. It was a great place to work before it was bought out by the competition.

They should pay more because socialism is what made this country great in the first place

Wait, what's that? It was free markets and Americans producing great products? Well fuck that, that means people have to get off their asses and fend for themselves. The government should do everything for them.

[/Obama].

[Oh, Gee!!]

yeah, who likes roads and junk anyways?

[Spurminator]

If any of you guys find yourselves in dire straits under Obama socialism I'm happy to send you some canned food, just let me know.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Joe Plumbers in OH avg less that $50K, so they ALL would pay less taxes under HUSSEIN.

Only plumbers who made over $184K would would see a tax increase.Here's to not aiming high.
http://letstalkcigars.com/images/letstalkcigars_com/cigartailor/anchor_beer.jpg

[Wild Cobra]

If any of you guys find yourselves in dire straits under Obama socialism I'm happy to send you some canned food, just let me know.

That's a good idea. I accidently bought a case of "Low Sodium" soups. YUCK! I'll be glad to get rid on them, along with some other stuff I didn't like.

[hitmanyr2k]

Joe the Plumber wasn't a plant. He was just another gimmick to be exploited by a desperate, failed campaign. These stunts seem to be the only thing the McCain camp can do and as usual it blows up in their face. In the years to come the McCain/Palin ticket will be the prime example of how NOT to run a presidential campaign.

[boutons_]

McNasty's incompetent campaign people come up with another losing tactic! :lol

Joe The Plumber Tanks In Swing States

Campaign aides to John McCain told the New York Times last week that "Joe the Plumber" would form the bedrock of their strategy (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/17/us/politics/17campaign.html?_r=1&oref=slogin) for the rest of the race: :lol

Mr. McCain's advisers said that in his speeches, television advertisements and mailings, he would seize on a remark Mr. Obama made in an encounter with an Ohio voter, Joe Wurzelbacher, who had pressed him to explain his support for a tax increase for upper-income filers. Mr. Obama responded by saying he wanted to "spread the wealth." Mr. McCain repeatedly invoked that encounter with the man, whom he called "Joe the Plumber," during the debate on Wednesday. Has it worked? Not exactly.


A Suffolk University poll of Ohio and Missouri finds that name recognition of "Joe the Plumber" is very high in both states -- but only a handful of voters said it made them more likely to vote for the Republican candidate.



In Ohio, 68% of respondents had heard the Joe story. Six percent said it made them more likely to vote for McCain; four percent said it made them more likely to vote for Obama.



In Missouri a whopping 80% knew of Joe. Eight percent were more likely to vote McCain as a result; 3 percent more likely to vote Obama.



In both states, vast majorities said the plumber's story did not affect their decision at all. :lol Meanwhile, Obama is leading McCain in Ohio and is nearly tied with him in Missouri. More from the poll (http://www.suffolk.edu/31491.html):

With just over two weeks left before the presidential election, voters in the key state of Ohio are giving the Democratic ticket of Barack Obama and Joe Biden a 9-point lead (51 percent-42 percent) over the Republican ticket of John McCain and Sarah Palin, according to a poll released today by Suffolk University.
In Missouri, McCain led by 1 percent (45 percent to 44 percent) statewide. He also led the bellwether test of Platte County, Mo.


"If Ohio goes for Obama, it may be lights out for McCain," said David Paleologos, director of the Political Research Center at Suffolk University in Boston. "At least today, the probability of an Ohio win is supported by the high-single-digit lead in the statewide poll coupled with the Perry County bellwether, which showed Obama leading by 4 percent."


In 2008, Suffolk University bellwethers were 95 percent accurate in predicting straight-up winners in both Democratic and Republican primaries, and, when coupled with statewide Suffolk polls, were 100 percent accurate in predicting straight-up winners.

[Buddy Holly]

I watched his stump speech this morning and couldn't believe he was still using Joe the plumber and his American dream story. I felt bad for the guy.

[xrayzebra]

Joe Plumbers in OH avg less that $50K, so they ALL would pay less taxes under HUSSEIN.

Only plumbers who made over $184K would would see a tax increase.

How long have you lived on this planet. Dimm-o-craps never, never
cut taxes for anyone. Rest assured that Obama is no different. He
and Pelosi and Reed will find a way into your pocketbook. I
guarantee that.

[Wild Cobra]

Joe was on Hannity and Colmes. He did really good, and put Obama in his place.

[Mr. Peabody]

Joe was on Hannity and Colmes. He did really good, and put Obama in his place.

I'm sure the electorate is changing as we speak.

[Purple & Gold]

I like how the election has gone back to the only thing Repubs ever care about. TAXES

[Wild Cobra]

I'm sure the electorate is changing as we speak.

It doesn't much matter. Ozombies are going to mindlessly vote for him anyway. Point is, after the anal exam of him by the leftist pudits, trying to discredit the messenger, we say Joe for the real man he is.

[bobbyjoe]

How long have you lived on this planet. Dimm-o-craps never, never
cut taxes for anyone. Rest assured that Obama is no different. He
and Pelosi and Reed will find a way into your pocketbook. I
guarantee that.

When you have a $10 T national debt and are running deficits of $500 B a year, people just need to accept that taxes are going up, regardless of who wins the Presidency.

You just can't keep up the reckless cut taxes and still spend like crazy strategy we've been using the last 8 years. It makes 0 fiscal sense.

This idea that McCain's going to be able to keep taxes low despite the abundance of red ink on the federal balance sheet with a Democratic Congress is laughable. Even if he does manage to keep them at current levels until the economy resumes on a positive course taxes have to go up to pay for the Hundreds of billions of deficit's we run year after year.

I see little in McCain's platform to suggest that he will cut spending enough to bridge the gap, so the result is higher taxes or simply deferring higher taxes to future years and generations. He won't be the first politician to lie about keeping taxes low. It's an old trick and few follow through on it. We've seen how many times McCain changes his mind on issues in just the past few months of campaigning. I doubt Obama will stay true to the Middle Class tax cut either to be honest.

And when this happens, you won't have either Obama or McCain to blame: It's George Bush's doubling of the national debt in just 8 years, a historic, mind boggling, and embarassing feat. He simply pushed the liabilities into the future, but they are still there and unaccounted for.