Hawaii drops universal child health care

[DarrinS]

after only 7 months.

http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5hLmnk2nJW1GlWETxZ5EknjKJCYgg

HONOLULU — Hawaii, the only U.S. state to offer universal child health care, is dropping the program just seven months after launching it.

Gov. Linda Lingle's administration cites budget shortfalls and other health care options for eliminating the program. A state official complained that the program was aimed at helping low-income people and immigrants, but that better-off families were dropping private coverage so their children would be eligible for the subsidized plan.

The state says it will stop providing health coverage to the 2,000 children enrolled in it by Nov. 1.

However, the state's private partner in the venture, Hawaii Medical Service Association, says it will extend their coverage through the end of the year even without government support.

HMSA spokeswoman Jennifer Diesman says the company is disappointed by the decision, which she said came as a "complete surprise."

"We believe the program is working, and given Hawaii's economic uncertainty, we don't think now is the time to cut all funding for this kind of program," said Diesman, whose company is the state's largest health care provider.

Hawaii legislators approved the health plan in 2007 as a way to ensure every child can get basic medical help.

The Keiki (child) Care program aimed to cover every child from birth to 18 years old who didn't already have health insurance - mostly immigrants and members of lower-income families.

State health officials argued that most of the children enrolled in the universal child care program previously had private health insurance, indicating that it was helping those who didn't need it.

"People who were already able to afford health care began to stop paying for it so they could get it for free," said Dr. Kenny Fink, the administrator for Med-QUEST at the Department of Human Services. "I don't believe that was the intent of the program."

The United States is one of the few western countries that does not have universal health care, although many states have government programs to help parents cover their children.

[101A]

As in everything in life; you get what you pay for. You pay for people to not have insurance; that is what they are going to do. EVERY SINGLE PERSON in the world is self-interested; most are motivated by the obvious. VERY FEW derive pleasure primarily by helping the "greater" good. Govt. policy MUST recognize this truism; or it is doomed to continual unintended consequences.

[DarkReign]

Come one, come all.

There is no in between. Doomed from the start if you ask me.

[Tully365]

And, in a related story, it is still available in Germany, France, Canada, The Netherlands, Finland, Scotland, Wales, Singapore, Australia, New Zealand, Argentina, Brazil, Panama, Cuba, Uruguay, Sweden, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Poland, Romania, Italy, Greece, Norway, and many other countries. Strange, huh?

[Hook Dem]

And, in a related story, it is still available in Germany, France, Canada, The Netherlands, Finland, Scotland, Wales, Singapore, Australia, New Zealand, Argentina, Brazil, Panama, Cuba, Uruguay, Sweden, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Poland, Romania, Italy, Greece, Norway, and many other countries. Strange, huh?

Not strange at all. Just go ask them about the quality of healthcare in those places.

[ElNono]

Not strange at all. Just go ask them about the quality of healthcare in those places.

Having lived in Argentina and Brazil, and having family in Italy, France, Canada and Uruguay, I can tell tell you that they receive quality healthcare 90% of the time.

Did you actually went to a doctor on any of these places, or you just talking out of your ass?

[boutons_]

"quality of healthcare in those places."

Quit being coy. Tell us how bad the healthcare is in countries with national systems vs. the USA's for-profit rip-off health care.

USA is now 29th country in neo-natal mortality. Quality?

[DarrinS]

"quality of healthcare in those places."

Quit being coy. Tell us how bad the healthcare is in countries with national systems vs. the USA's for-profit rip-off health care.

USA is now 29th country in neo-natal mortality. Quality?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate_(2005)

[boutons_]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ty_rate_(2005) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate_%282005 %29)

... USA's infant mortality rate is about the same as ... Croatia's. Excellent

Iceland's is lowest, with 30 countries having a lower rate than USA.

[Anti.Hero]

We are going to see how great Amerika is when those who worked their ass off to pay for health insurance the last 30 years have to start waiting weeks for decent care all of a sudden.


"You'll get same healthcare as your politicians"...:lmao

It's just too bad you won't get to cut in line like your great leaders. :rollin:rollin:rollin

[ElNono]

We are going to see how great Amerika is when those who worked their ass off to pay for health insurance the last 30 years have to start waiting weeks for decent care all of a sudden.


"You'll get same healthcare as your politicians"...:lmao

It's just too bad you won't get to cut in line like your great leaders. :rollin:rollin:rollin

Why would they? They'll keep using the same coverage that they have and worked for them... If they chose to drop that and go for the government coverage, then they'll have to live with the limitations of that system...
That's how it works in all the countries that were listed above. You have a public health system, with it's limitations, and if you can afford it, a private system, also with it's limitations...
The difference in the US right now, is that if you can't afford the private system, you are left with no coverage right now.

[ChumpDumper]

Doesn't seem like it was universal if it wasn't designed to cover every child.

[Clandestino]

i lived in germany and paid on average 40-43% in taxes.. i never got sick so i felt like i was ripped off. germany has income tax, a solidarity surcharge, vat tax, every fucking tax you can think of.

if you guys like those countries way of life and you want it here. be prepared to pay out the ass for it.

[whottt]

i lived in germany and paid on average 40-43% in taxes.. i never got sick so i felt like i was ripped off. germany has income tax, a solidarity surcharge, vat tax, every fucking tax you can think of.

if you guys like those countries way of life and you want it here. be prepared to pay out the ass for it.



It's not going to work in a country as large as America....we'd need to be much wealthier than we actually are for it work like it does in economic powerhouses with small populations.

Socialized health care doesn't seem to be a big selling point for the Cubans who risk their lives to get out that shithole called Cuba.


Insn't it amazing how they never want to return once they get over here?


Not even the poor ones.

[whottt]

I think we ought to do an exchange program with Cuba...those that want Socialized Health care can go live in Cuba, and Cubans that want to be free can come take their place in America.


PS: Any libs with aids....you probably don't want to go to Cuba...not even for the Free Healthcare.

[TDMVPDPOY]

in australia its means tested by ur taxable income, if you are a low income earner under 20k you pay no medicare levy, if you earn over 80k i think...you pay 2.5%, but if you dont wanna be penalize, better of getting private health care cause its tax deductible and can claim rebates on it, where else paying the extra 1% is not tax deductible. The levy is compulsory....

[whottt]

Lift that economic sanction off of Cuba and Im willing to bet Florida would be a ghost town.

Economic sanctions? Economic sanctions?

You mean sanctions by greedy capitalistic pigs?


What need has Cuba of Capitalists and their economies? That's the whole point.



And you're an idiot BTW....that was easily the stupidest equivalancy ever uttered in the history of the Universe.

[ElNono]

It's not going to work in a country as large as America....we'd need to be much wealthier than we actually are for it work like it does in economic powerhouses with small populations.


Economic powerhouses like The Netherlands, Finland, Scotland, Wales, Singapore, Australia, New Zealand, Argentina, Brazil, Panama, Cuba, Uruguay, Sweden, Luxembourg, Poland, Romania, Greece, Norway?

You're just too easy to own whottt...

[bobbyjoe]

Why would they? They'll keep using the same coverage that they have and worked for them... If they chose to drop that and go for the government coverage, then they'll have to live with the limitations of that system...
That's how it works in all the countries that were listed above. You have a public health system, with it's limitations, and if you can afford it, a private system, also with it's limitations...
The difference in the US right now, is that if you can't afford the private system, you are left with no coverage right now.

That's true. What's being proposed is a hybrid system, where people who want to stick with their private insurance companies and go to private clinics are in the same boat as they were before.

The "wait time" argument is also largely myth. The main country used by free market health care proponents in this argument is Canada.

The problem is that Canada is one of tons of countries which have Universal Health Care. And in the vast majority, waiting times are longer in the USA than in countries with a larger component of government funded healthcare. Pointing only to Canada here is disingenuous and misleading.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_28/b4042072.htm

Additionally, because healthcare is so exorbinantly expensive in the USA compared to other wealthy countries, there is a much higher segment of the population domestically which has no insurance and is forced to clog up hospital emergency rooms for what would otherwise be basic and non-emergency type of health issues.

The result is that the wait times in US emergency clinics dramatically exceed average wait times in other industrialized nations.

[Purple & Gold]

i lived in germany and paid on average 40-43% in taxes.. i never got sick so i felt like i was ripped off. germany has income tax, a solidarity surcharge, vat tax, every fucking tax you can think of.

if you guys like those countries way of life and you want it here. be prepared to pay out the ass for it.

I also lived in Germany and thought the health care system was great. Didn't feel ripped off at all. I guess some are just more selfish than others.

[Purple & Gold]

That's true. What's being proposed is a hybrid system, where people who want to stick with their private insurance companies and go to private clinics are in the same boat as they were before.

The "wait time" argument is also largely myth. The main country used by free market health care proponents in this argument is Canada.

The problem is that Canada is one of tons of countries which have Universal Health Care. And in the vast majority, waiting times are longer in the USA than in countries with a larger component of government funded healthcare. Pointing only to Canada here is disingenuous and misleading.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_28/b4042072.htm

Additionally, because healthcare is so exorbinantly expensive in the USA compared to other wealthy countries, there is a much higher segment of the population domestically which has no insurance and is forced to clog up hospital emergency rooms for what would otherwise be basic and non-emergency type of health issues.

The result is that the wait times in US emergency clinics dramatically exceed average wait times in other industrialized nations.

Exactly. Because when you can go to the Dr. when you first get sick, you don't have to wait till it turns into such a serious problem. This frees up the emergency room big time. A little prevention goes a long way.

[bobbyjoe]

i lived in germany and paid on average 40-43% in taxes.. i never got sick so i felt like i was ripped off. germany has income tax, a solidarity surcharge, vat tax, every fucking tax you can think of.

if you guys like those countries way of life and you want it here. be prepared to pay out the ass for it.

When you add in all the taxes we pay in America (federal income tax, state income tax, property taxes, sales tax, gasoline tax, capital gains and dividend taxes, payroll taxes, estate taxes) we're not exactly far from taxation levels in socialist countries.

[Nbadan]

Gov. Linda Lingle's administration cites budget shortfalls and other health care options for eliminating the program. A state official complained that the program was aimed at helping low-income people and immigrants, but that better-off families were dropping private coverage so their children would be eligible for the subsidized plan.

Doesn't this go against every wing-nut argument that universal health-care is inferior to privatized health-care? Why would someone give up superior service for inferior service and long waits in waiting-rooms? To save a few bucks?

Seems to me that the program was working a little too well ...

[Wild Cobra]

Come one, come all.

There is no in between. Doomed from the start if you ask me.
Yep, it was a no-brainer. I don't think why anyone thought it would work.


Having lived in Argentina and Brazil, and having family in Italy, France, Canada and Uruguay, I can tell tell you that they receive quality healthcare 90% of the time.

Quality isn't so much the issue as what they do to save costs. Most situations are every bit as good as, maybe better than the USA. What do they do when someone wants to file a lawsuit for millions? Does that happen in those places?

Oh, is 90% the time good for medical services?


When you add in all the taxes we pay in America (federal income tax, state income tax, property taxes, sales tax, gasoline tax, capital gains and dividend taxes, payroll taxes, estate taxes) we're not exactly far from taxation levels in socialist countries.
Except it's only the middle-class and higher paying near those levels here. I lived in Germany for six years myself. People here in Oregon living off the government are better off than the middle-class in Germany because of the taxation levels. My next door neighbor in Gӓrtrigen worked at the Mercedes plant in Sindelfingen. A good paying job for Germany, but they lived very poor by our standards. We would have to end welfare programs as we know them here, making every able-bodied person work, and tax then at much higher rates to have the money to do the same thing. Our Middle-class will end up living down at the standards our poor now enjoy. The poor will be even poorer.

[ElNono]

Quality isn't so much the issue as what they do to save costs. Most situations are every bit as good as, maybe better than the USA. What do they do when someone wants to file a lawsuit for millions? Does that happen in those places?


The whole liabilities part is what's completely different. Most practices do not have or have very low insurance because of that. That's exactly one point I brought a while back. I happen to work with doctors here in the US, and I know their insurance premiums increase the costs an incredible amount.


Oh, is 90% the time good for medical services?


It is. You have to understand that 90% of medical services in general are for normally basic or commonly understood procedures. The other 10% are the actual procedures that require high-tech or very specialized treatment, where the costs do grow considerably and the quality decreases.
My family back home actually opted for a private health program because they're getting up in age, and they prefer a better service than the government one. That said, insuring the entire family (3 person) costs them 30 U$S/month in that private plan.

[Wild Cobra]

The whole liabilities part is what's completely different. Most practices do not have or have very low insurance because of that. That's exactly one point I brought a while back. I happen to work with doctors here in the US, and I know their insurance premiums increase the costs an incredible amount.

This is a point I keep trying to make. Insurance would be far mor affordable if doctors didn't have to carry such expensive insurances. I sure would like to give that a try first, before socializing a system that will have to have such tort reform anyway.



It is. You have to understand that 90% of medical services in general are for normally basic or commonly understood procedures. The other 10% are the actual procedures that require high-tech or very specialized treatment, where the costs do grow considerably and the quality decreases.

I wonder how many Americans will settle for 10% of the services becoming a lower quality service?



My family back home actually opted for a private health program because they're getting up in age, and they prefer a better service than the government one. That said, insuring the entire family (3 person) costs them 30 U$S/month in that private plan.

So am I right to assume they are adding a high level policy to what they already get from the government? One that if something happens, they cannot sue for millions?
[QUOTE=ElNono]

[boutons_]

"Insurance would be far mor affordable if doctors didn't have to carry such expensive insurances"

total bullshit. Doctors' fees in TX have not come down after TX capped liability at $250K.

WC, you're such a talking-point shill for conservative bullshit.

A major overhead is hiring staff just to fight with for-profit insurance comapanies. This forces independent doctors into groups so they can share staff overheads for fighting with insurance companies.

The doctor's health care decisions are controlled/second-guessed/overridden by the insurance companies whose only objective to minimize the amount of health care given, no matter what the effect on the patient.

[ElNono]

This is a point I keep trying to make. Insurance would be far mor affordable if doctors didn't have to carry such expensive insurances. I sure would like to give that a try first, before socializing a system that will have to have such tort reform anyway.


Socialization of what system? What is being proposed is a hybrid system, much like the one I'm describing.



I wonder how many Americans will settle for 10% of the services becoming a lower quality service?


They don't have to if they can afford not to. The private system is not going away.



So am I right to assume they are adding a high level policy to what they already get from the government? One that if something happens, they cannot sue for millions?


You don't get a policy from the government. You just go to a public hospital/clinic and get care from the government, period.
If you just need a quick checkup and you have a preferred doctor near home, it's not uncommon to pay out of pocket for those things, since they're very cheap compared to what it would cost you here in the US. An example is my $15 visit to the dentist to have a cleanup.
When you opt for a private plan, then you sign a policy with the health provider (in my family's case their plan is provided by the British Hospital, a private entity) pretty much like any other private policy you sign for here.
You then go to their facilities to get care (they do have better technology than the government).
The limited liability is already part of the law over there. Plus it's nowhere near as a litigious society as the US, for a number of different reasons.