KB24.com: Kobe vs Jordan

[Showtime24 LAKERS]

http://www.dailypilot.com/dailyblogger/dcarrillo/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/kb-vs-mj.jpg

Most people offten make that comparison between the two talking about whos better some may say Kobe and others may say M.j. now if you ask me M.j. is pretty nice dough his the master, one of the greatest ever to play this game, but I think Kobe is better in certain stan point, Kobe is better in terms of shooting the basketball, trust me even dough am a big Kobe fan and all, I still have a few Jordan dvds jus to also watch his game see what he does and see if his similar to Kobe or to see how his different from Kobe, belive it or not I watch M.j. occasionally cuz am to bussy watching Kobe but when I do get a chance to watch Jordan I do find some moves that Ive seen kobe do in the game, that tells me that Kobe may have picked up a few tricks from M.j. now back to what I was saying so Kobe can shoot, dribble better, and I know Jordan can score to but when it comes to going one on one Kobes in another level his lethal when it comes to that thats why is Black mamba his called that for a reason, Jordans better in terms of what his acomplished as a bball player in his carreer I mean he has 6 titles, 10 times scoring chams like 5 mvps, finals mvps which Kobes yet to win, including defensive player of the year which is what kills me the most I feel like Kobe can defened and I just need him to win that award at least ones. So thats what separates Jordan from Kobe so we really cant make that comparison yet we gotta wait on till kobes finish with his carrer when is all said and done then we can site back and look at every thing that his acomplished, but Kobes not done yet he still got a good 8 or 9 years left in him hopefully more, Kobe I think has a lot of potetial to acomplish alot more probablly as much as M.j. but in that sense we cant really say Kobes better because his not yet done, but am telling yall right now Kobe will go down as the greatest player to ever play the game oh and he will be #1 in all time scoring passing Kareem, I allready think he is in my eyes but most people would disagree with me they would say am tripin so i cant say too much, I think as of right now in terms of jus scoring, puting the ball in the basket Kobes the best, Jordans carrer high is 69 pts thats nothing compare to Kobes 81 so yeah I think I can safely say that Kobes better, and will go down as the greatest ever.

What yall think?



http://www.kb24.com/users/IJQfvoTS/blogs/413

[Greg Oden]

What stupid motherfucker wrote this hot pile of steaming shit?

[Obstructed_View]

Well, they both play the same position. That's about as close as Kobe is to Jordan.

[DPG21920]

Kobe is to Jordan as this author is to Shakespeare

[Gino]

Well, If Kobe can just win three more championships before he retires then he might start to SERIOUSLY be considered on Jordan's level by anyone other than people who dedicate web sites to him.

Even then, Kobe's argument will be tainted by the fact that Shaq was the the leader for three of those championships and Jordan took two years off during his prime to play baseball.

[mystargtr34]

Kobe is to Jordan as this author is to Shakespeare

:lol about right.

[Allanon]

Well, If Kobe can just win three more championships before he retires then he might start to SERIOUSLY be considered on Jordan's level by anyone other than people who dedicate web sites to him.

Even then, Kobe's argument will be tainted by the fact that Shaq was the the leader for three of those championships and Jordan took two years off during his prime to play baseball.

As Gino says, you can't compare the two until Kobe gets at least 3 more rings.

[m33p0]

well, its somewhat true. kobe is better at 1 on 1s. that's only because jordan mostly goes for 1 on 5s just to even the odds. :lol

i wouldn't go bragging about that 81 pts, not with the way the defense was allowed to play back then. handcheck anyone?

[baseline bum]

As Gino says, you can't compare the two until Kobe gets at least 3 more rings.

And 6 more Finals MVPs and 4 more MVPs.

[dbreiden83080]

This reads like someone from my mothers 3rd grade special Ed class typed it up.

[dbreiden83080]

As Gino says, you can't compare the two until Kobe gets at least 3 more rings.

Kobe needs 6 rings more than he has. He has yet win anything without Shaq. Jordan was the man on all his title teams.

[Allanon]

And 6 more Finals MVPs and 4 more MVPs.

Kobe won't get as many MVPs as Jordan did. But I think he has a chance at beating him in rings.


Kobe needs 6 rings more than he has. He has yet win anything without Shaq. Jordan was the man on all his title teams.

Jordan had Scottie Pippen so that won't be a requirement...it always takes two at least. As long as Kobe gets as many rings, it will go to the MVP count. I don't think Kobe can catch the MVPs so Kobe will still be behind until he surpasses MJ's ring count.

[dbreiden83080]

Jordan had Scottie Pippen so that won't be a requirement.

Did you just compare Shaq to Scottie Friggin Pippen??

[DPG21920]

Kobe won't get as many MVPs as Jordan did. But I think he has a chance at beating him in rings.



Jordan had Scottie Pippen so that won't be a requirement...it always takes two at least. As long as Kobe gets as many rings, it will go to the MVP count. I don't think Kobe can catch the MVPs so Kobe will still be behind until he surpasses MJ's ring count.

I thought that Bigs were so much more valuable though? Just like Bynum, who any team would trade Manu or Parker or similar players for. If that was the case wouldn't the Bulls have traded Pippen for a big? Or at least in terms of 'chips, having a big is more valuable than Pippen.

[Obstructed_View]

Well, If Kobe can just win SIX more championships before he retires then he might start to SERIOUSLY be considered on Jordan's level by anyone other than people who dedicate web sites to him.
Resubmitted for truth.

[baseline bum]

Kobe won't get as many MVPs as Jordan did. But I think he has a chance at beating him in rings.


Yeah. Slim and none.

[angelbelow]

dude i stopped reading after all those typos.

[JamStone]

Whut u talken about dough, dog? Which typoz?

[Allanon]

Did you just compare Shaq to Scottie Friggin Pippen??


I thought that Bigs were so much more valuable though? Just like Bynum, who any team would trade Manu or Parker or similar players for. If that was the case wouldn't the Bulls have traded Pippen for a big? Or at least in terms of 'chips, having a big is more valuable than Pippen.

Pippen is in the Greatest 50 players of all time I believe so although he's no Shaq, he gets good billing.

Jordan couldn't win until Pippen joined him either so it's similar to Kobe needing Shaq. So you can't discount Kobe's rings with Shaq, that's unreasonable. No player, no matter how great, is going to win it on his own.



Yeah. Slim and none.


Wouldn't be too quick with that but let's start with 1 this year first.

For Kobe haters, the ultimate nightmare would be if he got 3-4 more rings because he would probably take his place next to his Airness :D

[LA24]

Why do Laker fans feel the need to bring up this crap all the time ? It just gives people a chance to say something negative about Kobe. No one outside of LA (and even some LA fans) will ever concede that Bryant > Jordan. And honestly, no one gives a damn right now !! :rolleyes

[JamStone]

Pippen is in the Greatest 50 players of all time I believe so although he's no Shaq, he gets good billing.

Jordan couldn't win until Pippen joined him either so it's similar to Kobe needing Shaq. So you can't discount Kobe's rings with Shaq, that's unreasonable. No player, no matter how great, is going to win it on his own.


Mike got the Finals MVPs, not Pippen.

Shaq got the Finals MVPs, not Kobe.

It's unreasonable to allow for a better Kobe/Jordan comparison by comparing Shaq to Pippen. Shaq did the heavy lifting for those Lakers championships.

I won't go so far as saying Kobe needs to win 6 more rings to be in the same category as Jordan. But, I think he would need at least another 4 with 4 Finals MVPs and at least a couple more League MVPs to make a legit argument, because he won't be able to catch Jordan's League MVPs or Finals MVPs, so he'd have to trump Jordan with rings with 7 to make a strong enough argument.

[Allanon]

Mike got the Finals MVPs, not Pippen.

Shaq got the Finals MVPs, not Kobe.

It's unreasonable to allow for a better Kobe/Jordan comparison by comparing Shaq to Pippen. Shaq did the heavy lifting for those Lakers championships.

I won't go so far as saying Kobe needs to win 6 more rings to be in the same category as Jordan. But, I think he would need at least another 4 with 4 Finals MVPs and at least a couple more League MVPs to make a legit argument, because he won't be able to catch Jordan's League MVPs or Finals MVPs, so he'd have to trump Jordan with rings with 7 to make a strong enough argument.

I'm not saying it's quite comparable, just that you can't throw them out just because he won with Shaq. History has a way of forgetting the details, if Kobe gets 6 rings, it'll be said that Shaq was the one who couldn't have won without Kobe. Very similar to the talk now outside of SA that KG is better than Duncan because KG's ring is in the now and people forget what Duncan's done.

Kobe has an outside chance at catching the Finals MVP count but no way he'll ever catch MJ on league MVPs.

I do agree, it'd take 7 rings for Kobe to make a strong argument, matching 6 would start the comparisons but just not enough.

Hell, Kobe could end up with 10 Rings :D

[DPG21920]

No one around the league thinks KG is better than Duncan

[dirk4mvp]

No one around the league thinks KG is better than Duncan

I'm pretty sure Celtic fans think so. Which would make it the same case as the Jordan/Kobe debate...which really isn't much of a debate at all.

[DPG21920]

That would be like Spurs fans saying Manu is better than Kobe. We love our team, but we are not blind.

[Allanon]

That would be like Spurs fans saying Manu is better than Kobe. We love our team, but we are not blind.

Last year there was a LONG thread at ST about how Tony was as good as Kobe. :D

There have always been hints at the KG > Duncan debate but always got shot down because KG had no rings. Now, with a ring, there's open debate on KG over Duncan. An even greater sign is KG will probably win DPOY again and Duncan will not even make the top 3.

[mystargtr34]

Last year there was a LONG thread at ST about how Tony was as good as Kobe. :D

There have always been hints at the KG > Duncan debate but always got shot down because KG had no rings. Now, with a ring, there's open debate on KG over Duncan. An even greater sign is KG will probably win DPOY again and Duncan will not even make the top 3.

Duncan still has more All-Defensive teams, twice as many MVP's, and 3 more Finals MVP awards. But regardless, rings will always be > than media opinion. And thats just what those awards are.

About Kobe, you cant discount the 3 rings, but hes certaintly no equal to Jordan if he wins 3 more championships. For even a legitimate comparison to be made, he would need to win at least 4 Finals MVP's, and even that leaves Jordan backers with alot more leeway given the MVP's, and still more Finals MVPs.

Until then, hes not really ina league with Duncan, let alone Jordan.

[diego]

isnt allanon the one who says kobe never makes the MJ comparison and its the fans fault? then why is this written dog turd on the official kb24 website?

kobe lost all hope of matching jordan's rings by losing the 04 and 08 finals (anyways, the rings is only a third of MJ's resume). he'll be lucky to play two more finals, much less win them.

as someone else noted, in this tired comparison, for the 3 peat lakers shaq = MJ kobe= pippen. kobe isnt even near the top 5

[JamStone]

I'm not saying it's quite comparable, just that you can't throw them out just because he won with Shaq. History has a way of forgetting the details, if Kobe gets 6 rings, it'll be said that Shaq was the one who couldn't have won without Kobe. Very similar to the talk now outside of SA that KG is better than Duncan because KG's ring is in the now and people forget what Duncan's done.

Kobe has an outside chance at catching the Finals MVP count but no way he'll ever catch MJ on league MVPs.

I do agree, it'd take 7 rings for Kobe to make a strong argument, matching 6 would start the comparisons but just not enough.

Hell, Kobe could end up with 10 Rings :D

Kobe has an outside chance of winning 6 Finals MVPs????

He a chance at that but can't get 4 more League MVPs????

How about there's no way he catches Jordan in either of those two departments?

[dbreiden83080]

There have always been hints at the KG > Duncan debate but always got shot down because KG had no rings. Now, with a ring, there's open debate on KG over Duncan. An even greater sign is KG will probably win DPOY again and Duncan will not even make the top 3.

Well what is that a "Sign" of??

Other than certain members of the media have their heads so far up their ASSES they can't see the light of day

[Indazone]

Hands down his Airness!!

[hater]

come back when Kobe wins a ring with Bill Purdue as his starting center

[ImmortalD24]

Dumb thread... Jordan>>>>>>> Kobe

This was clearly started to create controversy.

[dbreiden83080]

Pippen is in the Greatest 50 players of all time I believe so although he's no Shaq, he gets good billing.


Dude, Pippen making the 50 best list is shady at best. Jordan would not have 6 rings without him but he would have won a couple. Bulls had the best player of all time to build around for years. Shaq with no rings was going to put up massive numbers and cruise into the HOF. Can we really say Pippen is a 50 best player and a lock for the HOF without Jordan and all those Bulls titles?? Shaq is one of the most dominating centers to ever play the game.

[Allanon]

isnt allanon the one who says kobe never makes the MJ comparison and its the fans fault? then why is this written dog turd on the official kb24 website?

Yup, that's me. And it's true, this "blog post" was written by a fan.



kobe lost all hope of matching jordan's rings by losing the 04 and 08 finals (anyways, the rings is only a third of MJ's resume). he'll be lucky to play two more finals, much less win them.

This Lakers team is the most talented in 20 years and still young enough to contend for the next 5 years. I think we'll be seeing Kobe in the Finals ALOT more than 2 times :D

[IronMexican]

Jordan>>>Kobe. What's the point of this thread?

[Allanon]

Well what is that a "Sign" of??

Other than certain members of the media have their heads so far up their ASSES they can't see the light of day

History is written by the media, if they say KG is a better player than Duncan, then that's what it will be.

If they have their heads up their asses about that, there's not telling what they'll make Kobe out to be. It's already happening. Kobe used to be in the total doghouse with the media.

Nowadays, he's the golden boy...especially since the Olympics. Press coverage on Kobe these days is extremely favorable.

Give him a few more years of a squeaky clean image and a few more rings and he'll be walking on water according to the media.

[Allanon]

Dude, Pippen making the 50 best list is shady at best. Jordan would not have 6 rings without him but he would have won a couple. Bulls had the best player of all time to build around for years. Shaq with no rings was going to put up massive numbers and cruise into the HOF. Can we really say Pippen is a 50 best player and a lock for the HOF without Jordan and all those Bulls titles?? Shaq is one of the most dominating centers to ever play the game.

Dude, I didn't write the Top50 list. Although I have to admit, Pippen's defense was top notch.

Jordan didn't start winning until Pippen came along.

I don't think we would know who Pippen was without Jordan. At the same time, Jordan wouldn't have been G.O.A.T without Pippen.

[Allanon]

come back when Kobe wins a ring with Bill Purdue as his starting center

Come back when Jordan wins without Scottie Pippen.

[dbreiden83080]

History is written by the media, if they say KG is a better player than Duncan, then that's what it will be.


That argument has already been decided years ago. KG is a little late to the party to change the mainstream minds. TD has been called the best PF ever for years now by the media. KG has one ring and is getting some love even though he sucked in the finals. Duncan's place in history is light-years ahead of KG.

[dbreiden83080]

Dude, I didn't write the Top50 list. Although I have to admit, Pippen's defense was top notch.

Jordan didn't start winning until Pippen came along.

I don't think we would know who Pippen was without Jordan. At the same time, Jordan wouldn't have been G.O.A.T without Pippen.


Come back when Jordan wins without Scottie Pippen.

You realize this was 100% settled in the finals this year. MJ would have made Paul Pierce eat his lunch in that series. Kobe got outplayed by Pierce pretty badly. MJ would have dessimated him something awful.

[Allanon]

That argument has already been decided years ago. KG is a little late to the party to change the mainstream minds. TD has been called the best PF ever for years now by the media. KG has one ring and is getting some love even though he sucked in the finals. Duncan's place in history is light-years ahead of KG.

KG and Duncan are still playing and in my opinion, we'll be seeing alot more of KG in the Finals than Duncan in their remaining years.

The ring question will then come in question and people will blame it on a poor Minnesota team while Duncan had HOF'ers Manu and Tony Parker and possibly even Bowen.

[dirk4mvp]

You realize this was 100% settled in the finals this year. MJ would have made Paul Pierce eat his lunch in that series. Kobe got outplayed by Pierce pretty badly. MJ would have dessimated him something awful.



LMAO this is true.

I'd like to see what LeBron would have done if he was traded places with Kobe last season...considering he still went farther against the Celtics with a shit supporting cast around him than Kobe.

[dbreiden83080]

KG and Duncan are still playing and in my opinion, we'll be seeing alot more of KG in the Finals than Duncan in their remaining years.

The ring question will then come in question and people will blame it on a poor Minnesota team while Duncan had HOF'ers Manu and Tony Parker and possibly even Bowen.

It's a bit much to be projecting KG into the finals many more times, that core is not that young. KG is the same age as Duncan. Allen is 34 this year. And Tim has 3 finals MVP's. 2 of those in 99 and 03 were dynamic and dominating. KG one trip to the finals, they won but he was awful. I don't know where you are getting this KG is better than TD vibe from the media. I am not hearing it from anyone who knows what the hell they are talking about.

[dbreiden83080]

Bowen.

The only time Bowen will see the Hall of Fame is when he purchases a ticket

[Allanon]

It's a bit much to be projecting KG into the finals many more times, that core is not that young. KG is the same age as Duncan. Allen is 34 this year. And Tim has 3 finals MVP's. 2 of those in 99 and 03 were dynamic and dominating. KG one trip to the finals, they won but he was awful. I don't know where you are getting this KG is better than TD vibe from the media. I am not hearing it from anyone who knows what the hell they are talking about.

It's not about age, it's about the competition.

KG plays in the East, that's why I'm projecting KG into the Finals alot more than Duncan.

[dbreiden83080]

It's not about age, it's about the competition.

KG plays in the East, that's why I'm projecting KG into the Finals alot more than Duncan.

He can make the finals, he has to win titles.

[Allanon]

You realize this was 100% settled in the finals this year. MJ would have made Paul Pierce eat his lunch in that series. Kobe got outplayed by Pierce pretty badly. MJ would have dessimated him something awful.

MJ, his Airness, got decimated by the Pistons 3 years in a row in the Playoffs before finally getting over the hump.

But nobody remembers that stuff because history forgets the details.

Kobe's got 6-7 years left on a talented team to avenge the Celtics loss and add to his ring count.

[RsxPiimp]

Dude, Pippen making the 50 best list is shady at best. Jordan would not have 6 rings without him but he would have won a couple. Bulls had the best player of all time to build around for years. Shaq with no rings was going to put up massive numbers and cruise into the HOF. Can we really say Pippen is a 50 best player and a lock for the HOF without Jordan and all those Bulls titles?? Shaq is one of the most dominating centers to ever play the game.

shady? wtf?

ur an idiot and u dont know basketball to question pippens legitimacy in that 50 top list.


using your logic, i can name another 10 players who should've never made that greatest list.

[RsxPiimp]

MJ, his Airness, got decimated by the Pistons 3 years in a row in the Playoffs before finally getting over the hump.

But nobody remembers that stuff because history forgets the details.

Kobe's got 6-7 years left on a talented team to avenge the Celtics loss and add to his ring count.

mj was also in his 20's when he dominated like no other. kobe's too old to make a similar historical run.



id say kobe can definitely win 2 more titles with his roster but 3 or more is reaching.

[dbreiden83080]

shady? wtf?

ur an idiot and u dont know basketball to question pippens legitimacy in that 50 top list.


using your logic, i can name another 10 players who should've never made that greatest list.

Hey newbie, the top 50 list was a joke. About 15 guys have come along since the list was announced that easily knock off guys that were borderline to be on that damn thing to begin with. Pippen is questionable at best deserving to be there. Pippen was always going to be very good, all star level. But MJ made him way better. And even if he deserved it, his spot would have been taken by now, by a better all time player like Duncan.

[Allanon]

mj was also in his 20's when he dominated like no other. kobe's too old to make a similar historical run.

Actually, Jordan didn't start winning championships until he was 29. In fact, Kobe's 2 rings ahead of Jordan at the same age.



id say kobe can definitely win 2 more titles with his roster but 3 or more is reaching.

The roster looks very promising and they're all pretty young. That's possible, I can only hope for more.

[Allanon]

Hey newbie, the top 50 list was a joke. About 15 guys have come along since the list was announced that easily knock off guys that were borderline to be on that damn thing to begin with. Pippen is questionable at best deserving to be there. Pippen was always going to be very good, all star level. But MJ made him way better. And even if he deserved it, his spot would have been taken by now, by a better all time player like Duncan.

Pippen would still be in the Top50 list even today. I'm not sure anybody on the Lakers right now aside from Kobe will make Top50 in the future except, possibly, Bynum.

[Medvedenko]

Kobe=Jordan

[dbreiden83080]

Kobe=Jordan

Kobe=Paul Pierce oh no wait

Pierce>Kobe :hat

[TheMACHINE]

Kobe=Paul Pierce oh no wait

Pierce>Kobe :hat


thus Pierce> Jordan?

if a=b and c>b, then c>a :blah

[Obstructed_View]

MJ, his Airness, got decimated by the Pistons 3 years in a row in the Playoffs before finally getting over the hump.
Jordan averaged 36 points, 7 rebounds and 6 assists during those three playoff runs. If that's "decimation", then there needs to be a new word for what's been happening to Kobe.

[dbreiden83080]

Jordan averaged 36 points, 7 rebounds and 6 assists during those three playoff runs. If that's "decimation", then there needs to be a new word for what's been happening to Kobe.

Against one of the best and most intimidating defensive teams of all time in an era of hard-nosed defense being allowed by the refs. They used to flagrant foul Jordan for kicks in those days and he still dominated. Kobe can't dominate the Celts in an era where if you breathe on a star player it is a foul.

[TheMACHINE]

Against one of the best and most intimidating defensive teams of all time in an era of hard-nosed defense being allowed by the refs. They used to flagrant foul Jordan for kicks in those days and he still dominated. Kobe can't dominate the Celts in an era where if you breathe on a star player it is a foul.

Good point...unfortunately, the Celtics had 3 star players.

[Obstructed_View]

Good point...unfortunately, the Celtics had 3 star players.

Fortunately the Spurs only had two then.

[Obstructed_View]

Against one of the best and most intimidating defensive teams of all time in an era of hard-nosed defense being allowed by the refs. They used to flagrant foul Jordan for kicks in those days and he still dominated. Kobe can't dominate the Celts in an era where if you breathe on a star player it is a foul.

Two of those years, Jordan faced the Pistons after having gotten knocked on his ass by Barkley and Mahorn in the previous round. Kobe wouldn't have survived Philly.

[Medvedenko]

Two of those years, Jordan faced the Pistons after having gotten knocked on his ass by Barkley and Mahorn in the previous round. Kobe wouldn't have survived Philly.

I forgot...who on the sixers teams actually gaurded MJ and I don't believe Zones were in play.

All you jokers make me laugh, half of you probably haven't watched any of these games, let alone comment on them like they just happened. Watch some 80's games and you'll see the amazing athleticism and crazy defense where teams barely scored over 100....yeah.....ok.

KOBE=Jordan and let's not bring in team goals like championships, because from what I hear Jordan wins by himself and Kobe wins with a team. On pure talent and what the person has done on the court as a baller Kobe is equal. Bringing in different eras and players just muddles it. You my as well say Bill Russel is the best of all time.

[dirk4mvp]

we can ask jemela hill??


She probably thinks whites should be banned from basketball, so I don't know why anyone would ever ask her for an opinion.

[DPG21920]

Lakers fans are the only fans worse than Spurs fans.

[Allanon]

Jordan averaged 36 points, 7 rebounds and 6 assists during those three playoff runs. If that's "decimation", then there needs to be a new word for what's been happening to Kobe.

Jordan was selfish during that time and it caused his team to lose 3 years in a row. Those 36 points, 7 rebounds and 6 assists got him 0 Titles in 3 years. He had not learned or trusted in anybody outside of MJ.

It's amazing that when Kobe scores alot of points and loses, he's called selfish but when Air Jordan does it, all is forgiven.

[Allanon]

Two of those years, Jordan faced the Pistons after having gotten knocked on his ass by Barkley and Mahorn in the previous round. Kobe wouldn't have survived Philly.

Jordan wouldn't have survived the Zone defense since he wasn't as good an outside shooter as Kobe.

There are NO excuses. Jordan faced Barkley, Kobe faced Duncan. Neither one won the title.

Why are you making excuses for Jordan's losses? Jordan himself wouldn't make excuses, and neither would Kobe.

Jordan lost those 3 years to the Pistons, last year Kobe lost to the Celtics. A loss is a loss.

[Allanon]

Lakers fans are the only fans worse than Spurs fans.

Spur fans can't stand the possibility that Kobe may surpass Jordan and Duncan.

[duncan228]

Spur fans can't stand the possibility that Kobe may surpass Jordan and Duncan.

Speaking as a Duncan fan, I have no problem where Jordan is or where Kobe may end up. The game consists of great players that all bring something that make us watch. I loved watching Jordan, I love watching Kobe. How can any fan of the game not appreciate players of that caliber?

Duncan's resume will have him end up as one of the all-time greats. That's good enough for me, even if Jordan and Kobe are above him.

[Allanon]

Speaking as a Duncan fan, I have no problem where Jordan is or where Kobe may end up. The game consists of great players that all bring something that make us watch. I loved watching Jordan, I love watching Kobe. How can any fan of the game not appreciate players of that caliber?

Duncan's resume will have him end up as one of the all-time greats. That's good enough for me, even if Jordan and Kobe are above him.

I think we all know you're a fair and un-biased fan. I like Jordan and Duncan too, Kobe just gets a bit too much bias against him by many other fans.

I've said it before, I never liked Kobe's attitude before last year but I've always appreciated his game. It seems like something just clicked on in Kobe and he's a likeable fellow now too and I think he'll go down as one of the game's all time greats. And honestly, he's still behind both Jordan and Duncan. These next 5 years will define his legacy.

[DPG21920]

Spur fans can't stand the possibility that Kobe may surpass Jordan and Duncan.

You are so far off base it is not even funny. No Spurs fan gives a shit about Kobe or any other player "passing" Duncan. Only insecure Laker fans give a shit about that stuff. Spurs fans are used to their team not being appreciated. Duncan is used to not being appreciated. You do not see Spurs fans starting stupid ass threads every other day trying to make outrageous claims about their best player catching someone. We take Duncan for what he is, Tim Duncan. You keep hoping that Kobe does what he needs to do (which is nearly impossible) to "catch" Jordan, Spurs fans KNOW Tim has his place in history.

[AC#21_TD ERA]

There will never be anyone better than Michael Jordan. Kobe only reminds us of MJ with the way he plays. As good as Kobe is he should never be compared to MJ. MJ is a once in a lifetime generation player that will never come again.
You can compare Kobe to MJ all you want but we all know MJ is in a class of his own. :lobt2::lobt::lobt::lobt::lobt::lobt2:

[Allanon]

You are so far off base it is not even funny. No Spurs fan gives a shit about Kobe or any other player "passing" Duncan. Only insecure Laker fans give a shit about that stuff.

This is a 3 page post so far, obviously there are plenty of Spur fans that "give a shit", yourself included. Spur fans always take the bait when it's posted :)



Spurs fans are used to their team not being appreciated. Duncan is used to not being appreciated. You do not see Spurs fans starting stupid ass threads every other day trying to make outrageous claims about their best player catching someone. We take Duncan for what he is, Tim Duncan.

And rightly so.



You keep hoping that Kobe does what he needs to do (which is nearly impossible) to "catch" Jordan, Spurs fans KNOW Tim has his place in history.

Nope, I'm just responding to threads posted by Spur fans saying he has no chance of catching up with Jordan. I don't think Kobe is far from catching Jordan in the ring count and I'll even add that this Laker team is more capable of a 3-peat than the Shaq/Kobe years.

[sook]

6 time finals MVP vs 0 :(

[dbreiden83080]

All you jokers make me laugh, half of you probably haven't watched any of these games, let alone comment on them like they just happened. Watch some 80's games and you'll see the amazing athleticism and crazy defense where teams barely scored over 100....yeah.....ok.


Do you know what the elite teams in the 80's could do far better than most teams can do today?? 3 words, SHOOT THE BASKETBALL! The 15 foot mid-range jumper was not like trying to hit a 3 pter like today. It was something all the elite teams did with great efficiency. When a player like Tony Parker was having a layup drill to the basket, he'd likely find himself on his ass before long. An era before Sportscenter idiots like Stuart Scott yelled "BOOOO YAAAAAA" to a dunk, so every young kid coming into the league tries to stuff it, so they can hear him do it to their friggin highlight.

[DPG21920]

This is a 3 page post so far, obviously there are plenty of Spur fans that "give a shit", yourself included. Spur fans always take the bait when it's posted :)



And rightly so.



Nope, I'm just responding to threads posted by Spur fans saying he has no chance of catching up with Jordan. I don't think Kobe is far from catching Jordan in the ring count and I'll even add that this Laker team is more capable of a 3-peat than the Shaq/Kobe years.

Spurs fans don't give a shit about comparing their players, which is what you eluded to by bringing up KG. Spurs fans are replying in this thread to shut dumb Laker "fans" up. Not to argue Tim's place in history.

[Purple & Gold]

Jordan > Kobe


In Kobe's defense though Jordan played in a watered down expansion NBA where he was the only player in the League that got "the call".

[spursnatic]

Kobe COULD NEVER compare to Michael Jordan, NEVER!!

[Obstructed_View]

I forgot...who on the sixers teams actually gaurded MJ and I don't believe Zones were in play.
It was probably Hersey Hawkins, but the point is that Mahorn or Barkley were there to knock his ass to the ground once he got past him. Zones, lol.


All you jokers make me laugh, half of you probably haven't watched any of these games, let alone comment on them like they just happened. Watch some 80's games and you'll see the amazing athleticism and crazy defense where teams barely scored over 100....yeah.....ok.
I watched every single one of those games and Jordan and Pippen both got the shit beat out of them. Didn't stop them from going to the hole, and it didn't stop them from coming back and sweeping the Pistons after losing in seven games the previous year. Since all it takes for Kobe to stop shooting is the media reporting that his teammates don't like him, I'd say there's really just no basis for comparison.


KOBE=Jordan and let's not bring in team goals like championships, because from what I hear Jordan wins by himself and Kobe wins with a team. On pure talent and what the person has done on the court as a baller Kobe is equal. Bringing in different eras and players just muddles it. You my as well say Bill Russel is the best of all time.

Kobe's three titles with Shaq are the only reason anyone even tries to make such a stupid case. On pure talent and what the person has done on the court Kobe can't carry MJ's jock. For all the talk about Kobe's great scoring, he's had one year in his entire career that can compare to most of the years of Jordan's. One guy averaged over 30 ppg for a season NINE times, and it wasn't Kobe, despite scoring a bazillion points against the weak sisters of the NBA when his jumper is on.

[Obstructed_View]

Jordan was selfish during that time and it caused his team to lose 3 years in a row. Those 36 points, 7 rebounds and 6 assists got him 0 Titles in 3 years. He had not learned or trusted in anybody outside of MJ.
I'm unsure how 6 APG from a shooting guard is "selfish" but I'll go along with your premise for the moment.


It's amazing that when Kobe scores alot of points and loses, he's called selfish but when Air Jordan does it, all is forgiven.
Funny how six championships out of seven years can alter perspectives. When it comes to being selfish, Jordan changed his ways, and Kobe hasn't. One might suggest that Kobe's far too old not to have learned the lesson.

[dbreiden83080]

It was probably Hersey Hawkins, but the point is that Mahorn or Barkley were there to knock his ass to the ground once he got past him. Zones, lol.


I watched every single one of those games and Jordan and Pippen both got the shit beat out of them. Didn't stop them from going to the hole, and it didn't stop them from coming back and sweeping the Pistons after losing in seven games the previous year. Since all it takes for Kobe to stop shooting is the media reporting that his teammates don't like him, I'd say there's really just no basis for comparison.



Kobe's three titles with Shaq are the only reason anyone even tries to make such a stupid case. On pure talent and what the person has done on the court Kobe can't carry MJ's jock. For all the talk about Kobe's great scoring, he's had one year in his entire career that can compare to most of the years of Jordan's. One guy averaged over 30 ppg for a season NINE times, and it wasn't Kobe, despite scoring a bazillion points against the weak sisters of the NBA when his jumper is on.


:toast:toast:toast:toast:toast:toast:toast

There aren't enough of these to award this post on all counts

[Obstructed_View]

Jordan wouldn't have survived the Zone defense since he wasn't as good an outside shooter as Kobe.
Um, you should read the rule changes for hand checking. Since we're playing the woulda coulda shoulda game, Jordan would lead the league in free throw attempts today, and was still a better ball handler and could have scored. With today's rules, at worst he would have added the three to his game a few years earlier in his career, and would have been able to bloat his scoring numbers the way Kobe has.


There are NO excuses. Jordan faced Barkley, Kobe faced Duncan. Neither one won the title.
Jordan beat Barkley every time he faced him. Once Jordan got over the hump he steamrolled the Pistons and everyone else that got in his way for the next 8 years, with the exception of one playoff series.


Why are you making excuses for Jordan's losses? Jordan himself wouldn't make excuses, and neither would Kobe.

Jordan lost those 3 years to the Pistons, last year Kobe lost to the Celtics. A loss is a loss.

I didn't make any excuses for anything. Someone expanded on Jordan's stats to point out that he faced brutal defense from the Pistons, and I posted the little remembered fact that the Pistons were doing the same thing the Sixers had done to them the round before. Jordan lost one playoff series as a Bull after the last loss to the Pistons, and the excuse for that single playoff exit is better than any excuse Kobe's had for the numerous team failures he's experienced since Shaq was traded.

I'm simply making a really convincing case, basically from memory, how Kobe doesn't belong in the same discussion. Kobe's a better three point shooter, and he's possibly a more explosive leaper. That's about it.

[Purple & Gold]

Funny how six championships out of seven years can alter perspectives. When it comes to being selfish, Jordan changed his ways, and Kobe hasn't. One might suggest that Kobe's far too old not to have learned the lesson.

Jordan won those titles in the 90's when the League was massively watered down because of expansion. No way he would have done that in the 80's or even in this present decade.

[Obstructed_View]

Jordan won those titles in the 90's when the League was massively watered down because of expansion. No way he would have done that in the 80's or even in this present decade.

Spoken like someone that never watched the man play. Kobe scored enough points in meaningless games against weak teams to keep his average artificially high so someone could point to his scoring average as a sign of his greatness.

[Purple & Gold]

Spoken like someone that never watched the man play.

:lol :lol @ you missing the great teams of the 80's or not acknowledging how watered down the League was in the 90's. Don't forget it's still a team sport.

[Obstructed_View]

:lol :lol @ you missing the great teams of the 80's. Don't forget it's still a team sport.

Someone should tell Kobe that.

[Purple & Gold]

Kobe scored enough points in meaningless games against weak teams to keep his average artificially high so someone could point to his scoring average as a sign of his greatness.

I really don't care about Kobe's high scoring games. Jordan is better than Kobe in most parts of basketball. I'm only commenting in that the huge stars of the 80's got old, the League expanded by 6 teams in a short period of time, and Jordan was the only one that got "the call" in the 90's. All things that you cannot dispute.

[dbreiden83080]

Jordan won those titles in the 90's when the League was massively watered down because of expansion. No way he would have done that in the 80's or even in this present decade.

The Knicks and Pacers alone in the 90's were better than anyone that is in the East right now, what the hell are you talking about??

[Purple & Gold]

Someone should tell Kobe that.

I would have to agree with that. :toast

[Purple & Gold]

The Knicks and Pacers alone in the 90's were better than anyone that is in the East right now, what the hell are you talking about??

I said in the League. Almost all teams that made the WC playoffs last year were better than those two teams. Ewing was a choke artist and only Reggie Miller could stand up to Jordan on that Pacer team. I'd also say Boston and Detroit were better than both those teams.

[Obstructed_View]

I really don't care about Kobe's high scoring games. Jordan is better than Kobe in most parts of basketball. I'm only commenting in that the huge stars of the 80's got old, the League expanded by 6 teams in a short period of time, and Jordan was the only one that got "the call" in the 90's. All things that you cannot dispute.

Right. BFT.

I'm not sure why I'm telling you this, but there were only two good teams in the NBA for most of the 80s. I'm not sure how any of it is relevant. Jordan got one of the most famous non-calls, but calling him for a pushoff on what's really his final shot as a legend would have been weak. The only thing weaker would be other implying that Jordan got calls that other superstars didn't in a superstar driven league.

[Obstructed_View]

I would have to agree with that. :toast

Kobe's an awesome player, but the desperation with which his fans try to prop up his greatness borders on that of Duncan fans.

[Purple & Gold]

Right. BFT.

I'm not sure why I'm telling you this, but there were only two good teams in the NBA for most of the 80s. I'm not sure how any of it is relevant. Jordan got one of the most famous non-calls, but calling him for a pushoff on what's really his final shot as a legend would have been weak. The only thing weaker would be other implying that Jordan got calls that other superstars didn't in a superstar driven league.

Actually there were more than two good teams in the 80's. Philly was damn good as well as Detroit.

And you must have missed the nineties if you think other superstars got the same calls as him. Only Reggie with his kick out is the only other player I can think of. Magic got the calls in the 80's but so did Bird, Isiah, Dominique, etc. so it balanced itself off much better.

And It was a pushoff it should have been called whether it was his last shot or not.

[Purple & Gold]

Kobe's an awesome player, but the desperation with which his fans try to prop up his greatness borders on that of Duncan fans.

Most Laker fans acknowledge that Jordan as well as Magic were better players. There are Laker fans and there are Kobe fans. Just like there are spur fans and there are Duncan fans.

It doesn't mean that both of them are not All-Time Great players.

[TheMACHINE]

6 time finals MVP vs 0 :(

overated...shaq might have been Finals mvp, but 2 of the 3 championship years, Kobe was overall playoff MVP....and most people including haters would even agree with that.

[dbreiden83080]

I said in the League. Almost all teams that made the WC playoffs last year were better than those two teams. Ewing was a choke artist and only Reggie Miller could stand up to Jordan on that Pacer team. I'd also say Boston and Detroit were better than both those teams.

Yeah and who gives a fuck about the west when you don't get out of the east? The east was damn good in Jordan's run. You didn't watch those Knick teams play much. The Riley Knick teams with Ewing in his prime were deep, extremely physical and very tough. Ewing, Oakley, Mason, Starks, Derek Harper, Doc Rivers, Charles Smith, that team could play. They were a monster on defense and pushed the Bulls hard in several playoff series. They'd easily beat the Piston team that won a title in 2004, give the Celts all they could handle that just won the title, maybe even some of the Spurs title teams. And Ewing was not a choker, he just wasn't on the same level as Hakeem or Shaq, some would argue David although he never won anything until Timmy hit SA. Ewings playoff series against the Pacers in 94 was incredible and he dominated in game 7 to send the Knicks to the finals.

[m33p0]

i loved that pacer team.

[duncan228]

Kobe's an awesome player, but the desperation with which his fans try to prop up his greatness borders on that of Duncan fans.

I think Duncan has propped his greatness up pretty well himself, he doesn't need his fans to do it, desperate or not.

I certainly sing his praises any chance I get, I think he's one of the greatest to ever play. But his resume, stats, and hardware speak for him better than I ever could.

[Purple & Gold]

Yeah and who gives a fuck about the west when you don't get out of the east? The east was damn good in Jordan's run. You didn't watch those Knick teams play much. The Riley Knick teams with Ewing in his prime were deep, extremely physical and very tough. Ewing, Oakley, Mason, Starks, Derek Harper, Doc Rivers, Charles Smith, that team could play. They were a monster on defense and pushed the Bulls hard in several playoff series. They'd easily beat the Piston team that won a title in 2004, give the Celts all they could handle that just won the title, maybe even some of the Spurs title teams. And Ewing was not a choker, he just wasn't on the same level as Hakeem or Shaq, some would argue David although he never won anything until Timmy hit SA. Ewings playoff series against the Pacers in 94 was incredible and he dominated in game 7 to send the Knicks to the finals.

I was basically talking about the state of the League. And no the East was weak and has been weak forever. I actually did watch those Knicks team a lot. They were good but not great. Ewing (although a choker), Oakley, and Mason were very good players (Oakley and Mason were especially tough). Starks is one of the most overrated players ever. Rivers was an old man by then, Harper was also old and only really had one good run in '94 (when Jordan was playing baseball), and Charles Smith was decent at best and even a bigger choker than Ewing (remember '93). No way they could have easily defeated the Pistons or gave the Celtics all they could handle. Pierce and Allen would have just murdered them. Billups would be able to do whatever he wanted against them. Although the Knicks frontcourt against the Pistons would be an interesting matchup.

And seriously Ewing was a choker you can even ask Knicks fans. (I'm sure Chris Childs will show up somewhere in this thread) He had that one really good run when Jordan was playing baseball. Doesn't mean he wasn't a damn good player, he just choked when the game and series was on the line (other than 94).

[Purple & Gold]

i loved that pacer team.

So did I, but other than Miller, Schrempf, and Smits they weren't really that talented. Then Marc Jackson (after Schrempf was traded) later on in the decade.

[mystargtr34]

overated...shaq might have been Finals mvp, but 2 of the 3 championship years, Kobe was overall playoff MVP....and most people including haters would even agree with that.

2000
Kobe 21.1 PPG, 4.5 RPG, 4.4 APG, 1.5 SPG on .442%
Shaq 30.7 PPG, 15.4 RPG, 3.1 APG, 2.5 BPG on .556%

2001
Kobe 29.4 PPG, 7.3 RPG, 6.1 APG, 1.5 SPG on .469%
Shaq 30.4 PPG, 15.4 RPG, 3.2 APG, 2.5 BPG on .555%

2002
Kobe 26.6 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 4.6 APG, 1.5 SPG on .434%
Shaq 28.5 PPG, 12.6 RPG, 2.8 APG, 2.5 BPG on .529%

The only playoff run he was close to Shaq was in 2001. Shaq was overall playoff MVP' in every championship, aswell as Finals MVP.

[Allanon]

Spurs fans don't give a shit about comparing their players, which is what you eluded to by bringing up KG. Spurs fans are replying in this thread to shut dumb Laker "fans" up. Not to argue Tim's place in history.

I'm not saying Kobe is better than Jordan. There are plenty of dumb Spur "fans" saying it can NEVER happen.

[dirk4mvp]

2000
Kobe 21.1 PPG, 4.5 RPG, 4.4 APG, 1.5 SPG on .442%
Shaq 30.7 PPG, 15.4 RPG, 3.1 APG, 2.5 BPG on .556%

2001
Kobe 29.4 PPG, 7.3 RPG, 6.1 APG, 1.5 SPG on .469%
Shaq 30.4 PPG, 15.4 RPG, 3.2 APG, 2.5 BPG on .555%

2002
Kobe 26.6 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 4.6 APG, 1.5 SPG on .434%
Shaq 28.5 PPG, 12.6 RPG, 2.8 APG, 2.5 BPG on .529%

The only playoff run he was close to Shaq was in 2001. Shaq was overall playoff MVP' in every championship, aswell as Finals MVP.


Holy shit, Shaq was in beast mode :wow

Give Jordan that Shaq, and no other player could even be mentioned in the same sentence as Michael.

[Allanon]

I'm unsure how 6 APG from a shooting guard is "selfish" but I'll go along with your premise for the moment.

Kobe gets 4.6 APG and was still called selfish.



Funny how six championships out of seven years can alter perspectives. When it comes to being selfish, Jordan changed his ways, and Kobe hasn't. One might suggest that Kobe's far too old not to have learned the lesson.

That was 6 championships in 8 years. Kobe is no longer called selfish because he has indeed learned...right at the same age Jordan did, 29.

[Allanon]

Um, you should read the rule changes for hand checking. Since we're playing the woulda coulda shoulda game, Jordan would lead the league in free throw attempts today, and was still a better ball handler and could have scored. With today's rules, at worst he would have added the three to his game a few years earlier in his career, and would have been able to bloat his scoring numbers the way Kobe has.

We would never know how Jordan would do with Zone defenses and how good Kobe would have been with Hand checks. Great players adjust to the way the game is played.



Jordan beat Barkley every time he faced him. Once Jordan got over the hump he steamrolled the Pistons and everyone else that got in his way for the next 8 years, with the exception of one playoff series.

Yes, that is true. I think Kobe is finally over the hump and will start steamrolling this year.



I didn't make any excuses for anything. Someone expanded on Jordan's stats to point out that he faced brutal defense from the Pistons, and I posted the little remembered fact that the Pistons were doing the same thing the Sixers had done to them the round before. Jordan lost one playoff series as a Bull after the last loss to the Pistons, and the excuse for that single playoff exit is better than any excuse Kobe's had for the numerous team failures he's experienced since Shaq was traded.

I don't like to make excuses but if you want one, I can show you an excuse of a starting lineup:

Smush Parker
Kobe
Luke Walton
Lamar Odom
Kwame Brown



I'm simply making a really convincing case, basically from memory, how Kobe doesn't belong in the same discussion. Kobe's a better three point shooter, and he's possibly a more explosive leaper. That's about it.

I'm not making a case, I'm just saying it's not impossible for Kobe to catch up with Jordan.

[dbreiden83080]

I'm not saying Kobe is better than Jordan. There are plenty of dumb Spur "fans" saying it can NEVER happen.

It can't, he's 30 years old already, he has what maybe 4 or 5 years of prime play left? So what you expect him to win 4 or 5 titles in a row, multiple more league MVP's, finals MVP's, the works. Basically Kobe and the Lakers have to be flawless for the rest of Kobe's prime. This is coming off a finals loss to the Celtics. You are not even making this push for Kobe, off a title. Plus how much longer before Lebron has a team that can challenge for it all? He has every bit the physical talent that Kobe has, maybe more. Kobe is just not going to hit MJ's level.

[Purple & Gold]

It's unfair to say that Kobe has to win 6 titles as "the man" when Jordan won his titles in a watered down NBA and was pretty much the only player in the League to get "the call" from refs.

[JamStone]

There will never be anyone better than Michael Jordan. Kobe only reminds us of MJ with the way he plays. As good as Kobe is he should never be compared to MJ. MJ is a once in a lifetime generation player that will never come again.
You can compare Kobe to MJ all you want but we all know MJ is in a class of his own. :lobt2::lobt::lobt::lobt::lobt::lobt2:

Not that I disagree with you, but if MJ was a "once in a lifetime generation player," then couldn't another one come again in another lifetime generation instead of never coming again?

[JamStone]

It can't, he's 30 years old already, he has what maybe 4 or 5 years of prime play left? So what you expect him to win 4 or 5 titles in a row, multiple more league MVP's, finals MVP's, the works. Basically Kobe and the Lakers have to be flawless for the rest of Kobe's prime. This is coming off a finals loss to the Celtics. You are not even making this push for Kobe, off a title. Plus how much longer before Lebron has a team that can challenge for it all? He has every bit the physical talent that Kobe has, maybe more. Kobe is just not going to hit MJ's level.


I agree with what your point is, but with the way Kobe conditions himself, barring career shortening or career ending injury, Kobe is exactly the type of player that can play at an extremely high level into his late 30s. I think he probably has up to 7-8 more years in his prime should he continue to play and not get a serious injury.

[dbreiden83080]

I agree with what your point is, but with the way Kobe conditions himself, barring career shortening or career ending injury, Kobe is exactly the type of player that can play at an extremely high level into his late 30s. I think he probably has up to 7-8 more years in his prime should he continue to play and not get a serious injury.

I think 37 or 38 is really pushing it. Especially for such an athletic position. Jordan at 35 as great as he still was, no longer was the Mike that could dessimate the opposition for 40 full min a night. He needed to go more in spurts by that age and his freakish athletic ability was not nearly on that same level, as he turned himself into more of shooter than a driver. I have no doubt Kobe by that age can still be great but will he be prime Kobe Bryant, night to night by that age, i don't think it is likely.

[mystargtr34]

I agree with what your point is, but with the way Kobe conditions himself, barring career shortening or career ending injury, Kobe is exactly the type of player that can play at an extremely high level into his late 30s. I think he probably has up to 7-8 more years in his prime should he continue to play and not get a serious injury.

Maybe if he was your regular 2-4 year college come in to the NBA at 21 kind of player. Instead, hes been playing on average about 90 games a year since he turned 18, your muscles, bones and joints can only take so much before they start to deteriorate. Given that i wouldn t be surprised to see a noticeable drop by the time hes 32.

[JamStone]

I never bought that argument about muscles deteriorating earlier because he's straight out of high school.

I look at guys like Karl Malone and Reggie Miller who played at a close to "prime" level well into their late 30s, their 15th-18th seasons, playing 35+ mpg, having played full seasons their entire careers.

Kobe is that type of conditioned athlete. He works on his cardio, weight, strength, diet, and overall conditioning year round. He has a well developed perimeter game so he can limit the amount of hits he'll take because he is still more of jump shooter at this stage in his career. Plus, with Gasol and Bynum, he won't have the constant double teaming or taking the huge hits by power forwards and centers.

Kobe is exactly the type of athlete in the right situation with the right sets of skills to be able to play at an extremely high level well into his late 30s, into his 18th+ season in the league.

[Allanon]

It can't, he's 30 years old already, he has what maybe 4 or 5 years of prime play left? So what you expect him to win 4 or 5 titles in a row, multiple more league MVP's, finals MVP's, the works. Basically Kobe and the Lakers have to be flawless for the rest of Kobe's prime. This is coming off a finals loss to the Celtics. You are not even making this push for Kobe, off a title. Plus how much longer before Lebron has a team that can challenge for it all? He has every bit the physical talent that Kobe has, maybe more. Kobe is just not going to hit MJ's level.

I can see your point. But Kobe should be able to play at a high level at least until 36, especially seeing how the he stays in shape and the league has cut down on hard fouls. I can see him playing in the NBA into 38, although at that time, it might be Bynum's team. Hell, Jordan was still a baller when he was with the Wizards, what was he? 40?

But with the current Lakers squad, getting multiple rings is not a stretch. I think the Lakers are going on a tear starting this year. The Lakers are about 13 players deep, this should also save more wear and tear.

That's 8 years to win 3 rings...if they're as good as I think it will be more.

But this is where it's speculation and fan talk, I think they can and you don't think they can. We'll just have to wait.

[Obstructed_View]

That was 6 championships in 8 years.

Jordan only played seven.


We would never know how Jordan would do with Zone defenses and how good Kobe would have been with Hand checks. Great players adjust to the way the game is played.
Then perhaps you should tell the Laker fan that mentioned it in the first place.


Yes, that is true. I think Kobe is finally over the hump and will start steamrolling this year.
Yeah, he potentially has a dominating center to carry him again. We'll know in 2014.


I don't like to make excuses but if you want one, I can show you an excuse of a starting lineup:

Smush Parker
Kobe
Luke Walton
Lamar Odom
Kwame Brown
It doesn't hold a candle to the Birmingham Barons. Sorry.



I'm not making a case, I'm just saying it's not impossible for Kobe to catch up with Jordan.
There's no case to be made. Kobe does not equal Jordan until he does a hell of a lot more. Winning half as many regular season MVP trophies as Steve Nash ain't a great start.

[DPG21920]

I'm not saying Kobe is better than Jordan. There are plenty of dumb Spur "fans" saying it can NEVER happen.

You are arguing (along with other "fans" saying he is equal) that he can do it. Just like you argue for 70 wins and Bynum being better than Robinson. Just quit making crazy ass hypothetical statements. Kobe can never be better than Jordan. NEVER. If he was going to be better, he would of already had more of a solid basis for comparison. He can be Kobe Bryant though. Just because he "can" does not mean he "will". Possible vs. Probable.

[TheMACHINE]

2000
Kobe 21.1 PPG, 4.5 RPG, 4.4 APG, 1.5 SPG on .442%
Shaq 30.7 PPG, 15.4 RPG, 3.1 APG, 2.5 BPG on .556%

2001
Kobe 29.4 PPG, 7.3 RPG, 6.1 APG, 1.5 SPG on .469%
Shaq 30.4 PPG, 15.4 RPG, 3.2 APG, 2.5 BPG on .555%

2002
Kobe 26.6 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 4.6 APG, 1.5 SPG on .434%
Shaq 28.5 PPG, 12.6 RPG, 2.8 APG, 2.5 BPG on .529%

The only playoff run he was close to Shaq was in 2001. Shaq was overall playoff MVP' in every championship, aswell as Finals MVP.

dude...yah stats...right...did you not watch the playoffs? 2001 and 2002 were all Kobe....and anyone who actually watched it, knows it.

[TheMACHINE]

Holy shit, Shaq was in beast mode :wow

Give Jordan that Shaq, and no other player could even be mentioned in the same sentence as Michael.

Give Jordan Shaq and people will be saying "Jordan is nothing without Shaq".

[RsxPiimp]

Hey newbie, the top 50 list was a joke. About 15 guys have come along since the list was announced that easily knock off guys that were borderline to be on that damn thing to begin with. Pippen is questionable at best deserving to be there. Pippen was always going to be very good, all star level. But MJ made him way better. And even if he deserved it, his spot would have been taken by now, by a better all time player like Duncan.

thats why u have to consider the timeline brotha. take it all in context.


do we fucking think bill shayes, billy cunningham and dave cowen desrves the spot now? fuck no.kg, timmy and kobe can easily replace those fools and anyone who complains needs a cock in his mouth.


i dont like the fact people are treating pippens career like chopped liver. pip has been one of the best defensive forward in league history. he made the ultimate sacrifice playing the role of mj's robin.


pippen could be just an all star without jordan, but i can assure everyone that mj would not hit GOAT status w/o a sidekick like Scottie.


Even mj himself admitted thats playing w/o pippen is like a slap in the face.

[AC#21_TD ERA]

Not that I disagree with you, but if MJ was a "once in a lifetime generation player," then couldn't another one come again in another lifetime generation instead of never coming again?

If it came once then your right there is a possibilty it could come again but i seriously doubt it. There have many players linked to become he next M.J and there not even close. Michael Jordan set the bar too high and i can't imagine a player accomplishing more than what M.J. did. It would take something extroadinary and out of this world. As good as Kobe is the closest he'll get is by polishing M.J's 6 Finals MVP trophies.

[ambchang]

Laker fans are hilarious.

I feel like I am reading a thread with Britney Spears fans saying she COULD be better than Madonna.

[m33p0]

Laker fans are hilarious.

I feel like I am reading a thread with Britney Spears fans saying she COULD be better than Madonna.
:lol:lol:lol

[TheMACHINE]

Laker fans are hilarious.

I feel like I am reading a thread with Britney Spears fans saying she COULD be better than Madonna.

but she already is...get out of the cave you live in

[Allanon]

You are arguing (along with other "fans" saying he is equal) that he can do it. Just like you argue for 70 wins and Bynum being better than Robinson. Just quit making crazy ass hypothetical statements. Kobe can never be better than Jordan. NEVER. If he was going to be better, he would of already had more of a solid basis for comparison. He can be Kobe Bryant though. Just because he "can" does not mean he "will". Possible vs. Probable.

Ah, again, that is your opinion. Why should your opinion be more right than mines?

I think Kobe will catch Jordan in rings, you say he can't, but that's just your opinion, being a Spur "fan" doesn't make you right.

[Allanon]

Jordan only played seven.

Again you are making excuses. 8 years is eight years.



Then perhaps you should tell the Laker fan that mentioned it in the first place.

I'll let you do that.



Yeah, he potentially has a dominating center to carry him again. We'll know in 2014.

Nothing wrong with having a dominant center to extend your career. Nobody penalizes Jordan for having the best rebounder ever to carry the rebounding load.



It doesn't hold a candle to the Birmingham Barons. Sorry.

What does this have to do with anything? Did Jordan play on the Barons? You're trying to say Kobe has been horrible since Shaq left but you fail to mention that Kobe's team those 3 previous years were horrible. I would have loved to see your boy Jordan win a championship with Luke, Smush, and Kwame in the starting lineup.



There's no case to be made. Kobe does not equal Jordan until he does a hell of a lot more.

Uhmm, yeah, that's what I said all along. Thanks for agreeing with me.

[DPG21920]

Ah, again, that is your opinion. Why should your opinion be more right than mines?

I think Kobe will catch Jordan in rings, you say he can't, but that's just your opinion, being a Spur "fan" doesn't make you right.

Where did I say he cannot catch him in rings? Rings do not equal better player, as evidenced by the Robert Horry example. I said he cannot "catch" Jordan because there is no such thing. He cannot be Jordan or better than Jordan.

[dbreiden83080]

Ah, again, that is your opinion. Why should your opinion be more right than mines?

I think Kobe will catch Jordan in rings, you say he can't, but that's just your opinion, being a Spur "fan" doesn't make you right.

You seem to think if Kobe catches Jordan in Rings that will make most put him up there with Jordan or in the conversation, i can't see that happening. I mean let me ask you being honest. In their 100% primes who was a better player? Jordan has Kobe beat in almost every category except Kobe is a little better jumpshooter, but Mike was no slouch in that area. Late in his career he drove less and was a turn-around jump shooting machine at times. MJ is lightyears better than Kobe on D, better driver to the hoop, better intangibles, better leader. He was Maybe the most competitive athlete and greatest will to win of anyone in any sport. Getting 6 rings and maybe 3 finals MVP is not putting him with Jordan. Anyone who knows anything about the game knows, Jordan was the better player. If a few morons in the media claim otherwise, they are simply wrong, pure and simple.

[Medvedenko]

MJ is lightyears better than Kobe on D, better driver to the hoop, better intangibles, better leader.

I guess Tex Winter, Phil Jackson and others who coached both would disagree with you...but hey you got your opinion and that's all that matters.

[ambchang]

We also learned in this thread that Ginobili's contribution to the 3 rings = Jordan's contributions to his rings. Ginobili has Duncan, Jordan had Pippen, and we know that without Duncan, Ginobili wouldn't have won the rings, and without Pippen, Jordan couldn't have won the rings.

In other words, Ginobili only needs 3 more ring to be as great as Jordan, and this means that he still COULD do it. Regular season and Finals MVPs be damned.

Besides, Ginobili was the real playoff MVPs in those playoff runs despite worse numbers than Duncan, and not being the offensive focus most of the time.

[dbreiden83080]

I guess Tex Winter, Phil Jackson and others who coached both would disagree with you...but hey you got your opinion and that's all that matters.

Read em and weap

Jackson is asked to confirm that he feels Kobe has better skills then spends most of the interview praising Jordan and saying what he does better than Kobe. And on defense it is no fucking contest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_WNTx3gG_s

[Medvedenko]

Read em and weap

Jackson is asked to confirm that he feels Kobe has better skills then spends most of the interview praising Jordan and saying what he does better than Kobe. And on defense it is no fucking contest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_WNTx3gG_s

Thanks Jordan has big hands and better interior game. No mention on defense though where I believe MJ was given a pass.....Of course he's going to praise MJ, however skill wise, and range is where Kobe has him beat. I'm just saying. Oh and if you haven't noticed, I dislike Jordan and always have. Great player, no doubt.....

[dbreiden83080]

Thanks Jordan has big hands and better interior game. No mention on defense though where I believe MJ was given a pass.....Of course he's going to praise MJ, however skill wise, and range is where Kobe has him beat. I'm just saying. Oh and if you haven't noticed, I dislike Jordan and always have. Great player, no doubt.....

Does Kobe have better skills??

"He does well but MJ is stronger"

"MJ has a better interior game, the best of all time"

"MJ had a better FG%"

"MJ had better hands, the ball was magic in his hands"


"Perhaps Kobe is a better shooter"

He didn't even Kobe that clear edge, LOL

And stop talking about D. Only a blind man with a man crush on Kobe would claim he is a great defender on Jordan's level. MJ would shut the opposition down night after night. He and Pippen gave people nightmares on that end of the floor. I still can't believe the Laker fans are in here talking about MJ and Kobe after the ass kicking Paul friggin Piece just gave him.

Wake up folks!!!

[Allanon]

You seem to think if Kobe catches Jordan in Rings that will make most put him up there with Jordan or in the conversation, i can't see that happening.

Are you crazy? The talent level is about equal, the main difference between Jordan and Kobe is that Jordan won more. You really think if Kobe ends up with 6 rings he shouldn't be mentioned with Jordan? I can guarantee you that if Kobe gets 6 rings, he'll be mentioned with Jordan. If Kobe gets 7-8 rings, he will make a strong case for being better than Jordan.

Serious Kobe hate there.



I mean let me ask you being honest. In their 100% primes who was a better player? Jordan has Kobe beat in almost every category except Kobe is a little better jumpshooter, but Mike was no slouch in that area. Late in his career he drove less and was a turn-around jump shooting machine at times.

Kobe was a better 3 point shooter and just a little bit behind Jordan in every other category.



MJ is lightyears better than Kobe on D, better driver to the hoop, better intangibles, better leader.

Prove it or is this more of your speculation?



He was Maybe the most competitive athlete and greatest will to win of anyone in any sport. Getting 6 rings and maybe 3 finals MVP is not putting him with Jordan. Anyone who knows anything about the game knows, Jordan was the better player. If a few morons in the media claim otherwise, they are simply wrong, pure and simple.

That's because only your opinion matters right?

[dbreiden83080]

Are you crazy? The talent level is about equal, the main difference between Jordan and Kobe is that Jordan won more. You really think if Kobe ends up with 6 rings he shouldn't be mentioned with Jordan? I can guarantee you that if Kobe gets 6 rings, he'll be mentioned with Jordan. If Kobe gets 7-8 rings, he will make a strong case for being better than Jordan.

No not even close as has been explained to you by several posters, the numbers bear out that Jordan was a better offensive player. HE scored more, at a better FG% in an era with harder defensive tactics, what more do you want exactly?? The man won 10 friggin scoring titles, again you know this already, you just won't let it go.

"Serious Kobe hate there."

No an accurate assesment of what Kobe has done so far, to what MJ did his whole career. Kobe is not even close.



"Kobe was a better 3 point shooter and just a little bit behind Jordan in every other category."

Now you are almost agreeing with me


"Prove it or is this more of your speculation?"

Jordan was 9 times on first team all defense, Kobe has plenty of selections as well, now on this issue the media often fucks it up. Right now they seem to think KG is the best defender in the league and a few years ago they were under the delusion that Camby was defensive player of the year but having seen them both play, MJ in mind is far far better on that end of the floor. Is that just my opinion, yes it is but Kobe is not a lockdown defender every night like Mike was. He certainy didn't play much D in the finals.

[Allanon]

No not even close as has been explained to you by several posters, the numbers bear out that Jordan was a better offensive player. HE scored more, at a better FG% in an era with harder defensive tactics, what more do you want exactly?? The man won 10 friggin scoring titles, again you know this already, you just won't let it go.

Kobe could have gotten alot more scoring titles if he wanted to. I think Kobe is a better scorer overall than Jordan, but that is my opinion. But scoring titles do not make you great and if it did, 81.



No an accurate assesment of what Kobe has done so far, to what MJ did his whole career. Kobe is not even close.

Kobe is not close, but he's not done. We're not talking about now, you're trying to be a prophet in saying Kobe "never" will catch Jordan. You're calling your future prediction on Kobe "an accurate assessment".

"Prove it or is this more of your speculation?"



Jordan was 9 times on first team all defense, Kobe has plenty of selections as well, now on this issue the media often fucks it up. Right now they seem to think KG is the best defender in the league and a few years ago they were under the delusion that Camby was defensive player of the year but having seen them both play, MJ in mind is far far better on that end of the floor. Is that just my opinion, yes it is but Kobe is not a lockdown defender every night like Mike was. He certainy didn't play much D in the finals.

When Jordan gets first team all defense the media is 100% right but when Kobe gets selections to the first team, "the media often fucks it up".

[dbreiden83080]

Scoring titles do not make you great. 81.

No scoring titles, 5 league mvp's, 6 rings, 6 finals mvps, legendary playoff performances and one insane clutch shot after another make you great.



"Kobe is not close, but he's not done. We're not talking about now, you're trying to be a prophet in saying Kobe "never" will catch Jordan. You're calling your future prediction on Kobe "an accurate assessment".

He is so faaaar behind in terms of accomplishments at age 30 it is crazy. He showed us nothing in the finals against the Celtics. Even less against the Pistons in 2004. This is your problem Kobe has gotten beat-down by teams Jordan would manhandle in the same position. MJ does not lose to the Pistons playing with Shaq my friend. MJ does not let Pierce eat his lunch in 6 games in the finals. You seem to think "Well if he gets 6 rings he is on Jordan's level", it's not that simple.



"When Jordan gets first team all defense the media is 100% right but when Kobe gets selections to the first team, "the media often fucks it up".

Kobe is a very good defender, but Jordan was an all time shut-down defender. Again is that just my opinion, yes it is. I doubt too many would hand Kobe the nod over MJ on D, except Laker fans, hugging very tightly to Kobe's nuts.

[Obstructed_View]

Again you are making excuses. 8 years is eight years.
No, I made a completely correct statement. Jordan played seven years in the NBA and won six championships. Whatever implication you draw from it is your problem, but I'm factually completely correct.


Nothing wrong with having a dominant center to extend your career. Nobody penalizes Jordan for having the best rebounder ever to carry the rebounding load.
Yeah, because the 20 points per game that Shaq scored didn't mean anything to Kobe.


What does this have to do with anything? Did Jordan play on the Barons?
Yeah, actually he did.


You're trying to say Kobe has been horrible since Shaq left but you fail to mention that Kobe's team those 3 previous years were horrible. I would have loved to see your boy Jordan win a championship with Luke, Smush, and Kwame in the starting lineup.
I would have liked to see Kobe take a shot in the pivotal game of the Suns series with that lineup.

[TheMACHINE]

this thread is still going?!

I dont think anyone in here thinks Kobe is better than Jordan...i just think its naive that most of you use the terms "light years away" and "not even close" or "cant hold his jock". Kobe is the closest players that ever came to Jordan and his skills are right there. You haters make it seem like if Kobe and Jordan played against each other, Kobe would score 2 and Jordan would score 50.

[Allanon]

No, I made a completely correct statement. Jordan played seven years in the NBA and won six championships. Whatever implication you draw from it is your problem, but I'm factually completely correct.

You said "Funny how six championships out of seven years can alter perspectives". It took Jordan 8 years, not seven years...you said nothing about "playing years. You were factually incorrect.



Yeah, because the 20 points per game that Shaq scored didn't mean anything to Kobe.

Yeah, because the 20 points per game that Pippen scored didn't mean anything to Jordan.



Yeah, actually he did.

Wake me up when the NBA open up a Baron's franchise.



I would have liked to see Kobe take a shot in the pivotal game of the Suns series with that lineup.

I would have liked to have seen Jordan win with Smush, Luke and Kwame.

[Allanon]

No scoring titles, 5 league mvp's, 6 rings, 6 finals mvps, legendary playoff performances and one insane clutch shot after another make you great.

You are comparing Jordan's completed career with Kobe's ongoing career. Obviously not logical.



He is so faaaar behind in terms of accomplishments at age 30 it is crazy. He showed us nothing in the finals against the Celtics. Even less against the Pistons in 2004. This is your problem Kobe has gotten beat-down by teams Jordan would manhandle in the same position. MJ does not lose to the Pistons playing with Shaq my friend. MJ does not let Pierce eat his lunch in 6 games in the finals. You seem to think "Well if he gets 6 rings he is on Jordan's level", it's not that simple.

Kobe is so "faaaar behind" MJ? What had MJ accomplished going into the season at age 30?



Kobe is a very good defender, but Jordan was an all time shut-down defender. Again is that just my opinion, yes it is. I doubt too many would hand Kobe the nod over MJ on D, except Laker fans, hugging very tightly to Kobe's nuts.

Give me some fact instead of knob-slobbing MJ with your opinions. You keep coming up with "your point of view". Them ain't facts, my friend.

[Medvedenko]

this thread is still going?!

I dont think anyone in here thinks Kobe is better than Jordan...i just think its naive that most of you use the terms "light years away" and "not even close" or "cant hold his jock". Kobe is the closest players that ever came to Jordan and his skills are right there. You haters make it seem like if Kobe and Jordan played against each other, Kobe would score 2 and Jordan would score 50.

I do....

Oh and I forgot...when Jordan played no one scored on him and he never had a bad game and always blew everyone away. My bad people.

[DPG21920]

Jordan is the best player ever (a belief held by most everyone) and this has nothing to do with what position he played or rings (because he does not have the most) or anything. Kobe cannot be compared to Jordan because that would imply that Kobe is the best player ever. Which he is clearly not. He is not even better than Duncan (for his career) and Duncan is no where near the best player ever.

[Medvedenko]

Kobe=Jordan>Duncan.....
Why the confusion.

[dbreiden83080]

Give me some fact instead of knob-slobbing MJ with your opinions. You keep coming up with "your point of view". Them ain't facts, my friend.

Myself and others have been giving you facts up the ass for like 15 pages now, with a few opinions thrown in. You ignore every single fact and toss out the opinions by stating your own. What else do you want to discuss that we have not gone over exactly?

You feel Kobe with 6 rings will be right there with Jordan. It's a longshot he'll be seen in that light even with that many rings. A few morons on Sportcenter kissing Kobe's ass does not make him Jordan. We're done here.....

[dbreiden83080]

I do....

Oh and I forgot...when Jordan played no one scored on him and he never had a bad game and always blew everyone away. My bad people.

You know what else he didn't do. Let someone with half his talent like Paul Pierce kick his ass in the NBA finals.

[Allanon]

Myself and others have been giving you f the ass for like 15 pages now, with a few opinions thrown in. You ignore every single fact and toss out the opinions by stating your own. What else do you want to discuss that we have not gone over exactly?

What facts? The only fact I've seen is Jordan has slightly better numbers than Kobe. That is a fact. "Kobe will never catch Jordan" is one Spur fan's opinion.



You feel Kobe with 6 rings will be right there with Jordan. It's a longshot he'll be seen in that light even with that many rings.



A few morons on Sportcenter kissing Kobe's ass does not make him Jordan.

Of course, again YOUR opinion is the right one.



He is so faaaar behind in terms of accomplishments at age 30 it is crazy.


Kobe is so "faaaar behind" MJ? What had MJ accomplished going into the season at age 30?



We're done here.....

Run when you're wrong Spur fan. :lol

[DPG21920]

What is your point Allanon? Every thing in life is subjective and opinion. When you go beyond stats and rings, you venture into opinion. So the fact that Jordan is WIDELY believed to be the best player ever, means that he is at least up there. Kobe is not even in the conversation, at all. Like I said in my last post, that is the reason why people think it is dumb to compare the two.

[mystargtr34]

Kobe=Jordan>Duncan.....
Why the confusion.

One guy lead a team to a championship as the main guy 4 times.

One guy has lead a team to a championship as the main guy, 0 times.

[dbreiden83080]

One guy lead a team to a championship as the main guy 4 times.

One guy has lead a team to a championship as the main guy, 0 times.

:toast

SHHHH

Quiet, all Kobe needs is 3 more rings and he is Jordan, just ask Allanon :rolleyes

[Allanon]

What is your point Allanon? Every thing in life is subjective and opinion. When you go beyond stats and rings, you venture into opinion. So the fact that Jordan is WIDELY believed to be the best player ever, means that he is at least up there. Kobe is not even in the conversation, at all.


Did you even read my posts? You're reading somebody else's post. Where do I even say Kobe is in the conversation with Jordan?

My point is Kobe is still early on in his career and the Spur fan posters have already closed the book on Kobe saying he'll "never catch Jordan".

Have you also closed the book on Kobe's career already?



Like I said in my last post, that is the reason why people think it is dumb to compare the two.

I'm not comparing the two. You mixed my post with somebody else, re-read the thread. I said Kobe can still catch up with Jordan, but prophetic Spur fans know the future and say he never can.



He is so faaaar behind in terms of accomplishments at age 30 it is crazy.


Kobe is so "faaaar behind" MJ? What had MJ accomplished going into the season at age 30?



We're done here.....


:toast

SHHHH

Quiet, all Kobe needs is 3 more rings and he is Jordan, just ask Allanon :rolleyes

Not quite done yet my friend? :lol

[DPG21920]

What does it matter if he catches him? You are comparing them because you keep saying he can catch him. Do you think that even if Kobe catches Jordan in terms of just rings that he will be mentioned as one of the best players ever?

[Allanon]

What does it matter if he catches him?

It matters enough for there to be 6 pages to this thread.



You are comparing them because you keep saying he can catch him.

I'm saying can, as in possibility. I'm not crazy enough to compare current Kobe with end of career Jordan as some Spur posters.



Do you think that even if Kobe catches Jordan in terms of just rings that he will be mentioned as one of the best players ever?

When did I ever say just rings? If Kobe gets 6 rings, I said that the MJ comparisons would start but still not be enough.

I said if Kobe SURPASSES Jordan's ring count for sure he'll have a good argument for being better than Jordan. And if Kobe can get that many rings, I'm sure he'll get quite a few Finals MVPs.

Read the posts again, you're confusing me with somebody elae.

[DPG21920]

It matters enough for there to be 6 pages to this thread.



I'm saying can, as in possibility



When did I ever say just rings? If Kobe gets 6 rings, I said that the MJ comparisons would start but still not be enough.

I said if Kobe SURPASSES Jordan's ring count for sure he'll have a good argument for being better than Jordan. And if Kobe can get that many rings, I'm sure he'll get quite a few Finals MVPs.

Read the posts again, you're confusing me with somebody elae.

I am not confusing you with anyone else. You are missing my premise. You keep asking people for facts, then you present possibilities, not probabilities. Then you act like you are not comparing them, but you are because you are intertwining the two's careers. My question is that do you think that Kobe, as is today, is arguably the best player ever in the game?

[Allanon]

I am not confusing you with anyone else. You are missing my premise.

What is your premise?



You keep asking people for facts, then you present possibilities, not probabilities.

If you are going to say my opinion is wrong, back it up with facts, not more opinion.



Then you act like you are not comparing them, but you are because you are intertwining the two's careers.

Where? Links, quotes?



My question is that do you think that Kobe, as is today, is arguably the best player ever in the game?

Nope, and I don't even think it's arguable. Read my posts, I already answered this 2 times already.

[DPG21920]

What is your premise?

I have already stated it twice. Who cares if he catches Jordan in rings, your argument is that IF he does (which is not a fact, but opinion) that he will be mentioned with Jordan (which is an opinion). I said Jordan is not considered the GOAT just because of rings; Kobe will never be considered the GOAT (opinion).

If you are going to say my opinion is wrong, back it up with facts, not more opinion.

Link to where I said your opinion is wrong? How can opinion be wrong? All you do is ask people to post facts, where are your facts? You have none, just opinions, so it is unfair to ask others for facts.

Where? Links, quotes?

Every time you posted in this thread is a link and a quote. By using Kobe's name and Jordan's name in the same sentence, you are comparing them. Quit trying to beat around the bush. You keep using the two names, purposing what-if scenarios and implying if the what-if is achieved he will be mentioned. That is a comparison.

Nope, and I don't even think it's arguable. Read my posts, I already answered this 2 times already.


It is not arguable even if he wins the titles.

[Allanon]

[/B]

It is not arguable even if he wins the titles.

Really? If Kobe gets 7-8 rings, it's not aruguable?

[Allanon]

I have already stated it twice. Who cares if he catches Jordan in rings, your argument is that IF he does (which is not a fact, but opinion) that he will be mentioned with Jordan (which is an opinion). I said Jordan is not considered the GOAT just because of rings; Kobe will never be considered the GOAT (opinion).

I never argued with you on these points. I never said your point is wrong. READ MY POSTS. Why are you presenting a premise that has no argument?



Link to where I said your opinion is wrong? How can opinion be wrong? All you do is ask people to post facts, where are your facts? You have none, just opinions, so it is unfair to ask others for facts.

You did not say my opinion was wrong, but you were responding to my statement what OTHERS said.

I don't need to present facts because I state that he CAN catch Jordan, not WILL catch Jordan. Others must present facts since they say he CANNOT which is absolute.



Every time you posted in this thread is a link and a quote. You keep using the two names, purposing what-if scenarios and implying if the what-if is achieved he will be mentioned. That is a comparison.

Sorry, that's craziness. I'm talking about Kobe MAY do, that is not a comparison. Future tense, CAN do, not HAS DONE.



By using Kobe's name and Jordan's name in the same sentence, you are comparing them.

I see several instances of you using Jordan and Kobe in the same sentence. So you are also comparing Jordan with Kobe? I thought you said Kobe shoudl never be mentioned with Jordan? That's just crazy logic.


Quit trying to beat around the bush.

I'm not beating around the bush, you're jumping to conclusions.

[ambchang]

From a statistical stand point, it is difficult to compare Kobe and Jordan based on the following reasons:
1) Kobe came straight out of high school and didn't hit his prime until his fourth year, while Jordan hit the ground running.
2) They played in massively different era; Kobe in an era where perimeter threat is the way to go (other than Stoudemire, and earlier on, Shaq, most of the top-10 scorers year-in-year out are perimeter threats. Jordan on the other hand, played in an era that was still post dominated (Malone, Olajuwon, Barkley, Ewing, Robinson, Shaq later on, McHale, Aguirre).
3) Rules were different, hand checks were thrown out, but defensive schemes were more complex.

But these differences aside, the statistics would give a brief look at how they compared to each other.

I took out Kobe's worse seasons, and only used his numbers from 2000 to 2008, a total of 9 seasons, and then took Jordan's nine best statistical seasons (1987 to 1993, 96 and 97). The reason is because Kobe's numbers the 1st 3 seasons were his "college" days, and Jordan took a couple of years off for baseball).

I then took per 36 minute production of the two. The reason is because some players play more than others, and given that these two are such top conditioned athletes and they played close to / more than 36 minutes a game anyways, we don't have to worry about them running out of gas and see production drops.

The result is as follows:
MJ is better than Kobe in:
Rebounds (19%)
Assists (8%)
Steals (57%)
Blocks (60%)
Turnovers (-1%)
Fouls (-5%)
Points (18%)
FG% (5.7%)
3P% (0.4%)
FT% (0.1%)

Kobe was better than Jordan in 3PA and 3PM by almost 90%.

I was shocked by the results, especially those around 3P%, but it seems like both are about equal during their prime years, and Jordan improved his 3P% dramatically as his career progresses, and had the highest 3P% in the years where he made most of his attempts (something about shot selection).

It comes as no surprise that Kobe made more 3pters as this is an era when 3pt shooting has matured into a serious weapon, while in the 80's, and even the early 90's, the shot was nothing more than a gimmick and an option for a team to come back in a high-risk/high-reward maner.

From an accomplishment stand point, in the years I used to compare the two, Jordan won:
1 DPoY
5 MVPs
5 Finals MVP (I had to throw out 98, because it was the last season of Jordan's prime)
9 All-NBA 1st teams
8 All-D 1st teams
Won 5 titles as the main man.
Led the league in scoring 9 times
Finished 8th in assists once
Led the league in steals 3 times, and top 10 another 5 times

For Kobe Bryant, he won:
1 MVP
All NBA 1st team 6 times
All NBA 2nd team twice
All NBA 3rd team once
All D 1st team 6 times
All D 2nd team twice
Led the league in scoring twice
Finishing top 10 in scoring another 6 times
Finished top 10 in steals 3 times
Won 3 titles as the 2nd best player on the team.

So from both a statistical point of view and from an accomplishment point of view, Jordan dwarfed Kobe in their respective 9 years of prime. Unless Kobe can drastically improve over the next 5 or 6 years, which means that he will go into his "real" prime after playing for 12 seasons, which in itself is extremely rare, Kobe has no chance of catching Jordan.

[Allanon]

Analysis too long for a re-post.

So from both a statistical point of view and from an accomplishment point of view, Jordan dwarfed Kobe in their respective 9 years of prime. Unless Kobe can drastically improve over the next 5 or 6 years, which means that he will go into his "real" prime after playing for 12 seasons, which in itself is extremely rare, Kobe has no chance of catching Jordan.

It's a good analysis but Kobe's but at this time it's hard to compare the two because Kobe's still in his prime. You have Jordan's best 9 years versus Kobe's years minus his worst.

If you look at the two and what they accomplished at the same age, it's very close.

There are a few statistics that Kobe just won't catch Jordan on as you pointed out. But on the flip side, there are some things that he will probably surpass:

1) All NBA 1st teams
2) NBA 1st Defense

And probably a couple of others.

A milestone that he for sure will pass Jordan is the All Time scoring leaders and possibly end up only behind Kareem in all time scoring.



Kobe was better than Jordan in 3PA and 3PM by almost 90%.

It comes as no surprise that Kobe made more 3pters as this is an era when 3pt shooting has matured into a serious weapon, while in the 80's, and even the early 90's, the shot was nothing more than a gimmick and an option for a team to come back in a high-risk/high-reward maner.

I have to disagree on the 3 pointers. If you look at the all time leaders in 3 pointers, you see guys like Reggie Miller, Eddie Jones, Glen Rice, Tim Hardaway, Thunder Dan. All of these guys made their mark during Jordan's era. Dale Ellis is from the 80's. Kobe's just a much better distance shooter than Jordan ever was.


Unless Kobe can drastically improve over the next 5 or 6 years, which means that he will go into his "real" prime after playing for 12 seasons, which in itself is extremely rare, Kobe has no chance of catching Jordan.

As you looked at Jordan's best 9 years, between what ages were they?

And adding to this, Kobe can probably play until he's 38 and probably won't go play baseball, and his talented young team, his list of accomplishments can be quite long.

[ambchang]

It's a good analysis but Kobe's but at this time it's hard to compare the two because Kobe's still in his prime. You have Jordan's best 9 years versus Kobe's years minus his worst.

There are a few statistics that Kobe just won't catch Jordan on as you pointed out. But on the flip side, there are some things that he will probably surpass:

1) All NBA 1st teams
2) NBA 1st Defense

And probably a couple of others.

This is strictly based on the fact that Kobe started off at a much earlier age than Jordan. Besides, Jordan has 10 All-NBA 1st teams, Kobe has 6. He has to be at the top of his game for 4 more years, which, while entirely possible, is difficult and not as easy as you make it sound. With players like Chris Paul and Dwayne Wade coming into their primes, Kobe will have to keep up.



A milestone that he for sure will pass Jordan is the All Time scoring leaders and possibly end up only behind Kareem in all time scoring.

For sure? He would have to score 2300 points a year for the next 4.6 years to catch Jordan. And to catch Karl Malone, he would have to do it for another 6.6 years. That would take Kobe well into his mid-30s.

Again, entirely possible, just not as probable as most people make it out to be.


I have to disagree on the 3 pointers. If you look at the all time leaders in 3 pointers, you see guys like Reggie Miller, Eddie Jones, Glen Rice, Tim Hardaway, Thunder Dan. All of these guys made their mark during Jordan's era. Dale Ellis is from the 80's. Kobe's just a much better distance shooter than Jordan ever was.

Top 10 3 pt shooters (attempts) and the years they made their most damage:
1) Reggie Miller - 92 to 04, peaking at around 97.
2) Ray Allen - 97 to 08 (pretty much his entire career), but an obvious upward trend later on in his career.
3) Tim Hardaway - 92 to 02, peaking 97 onwards.
4) Nick Van Exel - 94 to 02, making most of his damage earlier on.
5) Dale Ellis - 89 to 98, making most of his damage later. To witness, he led the league in 3PA in 87 with 240 attempts, it's common to have over 400 attempts nowadays.
6) Antoine Walker - 01 to 06, I don't know why he is shooting that much.
7) Eddie Jones - 97 to 06
8) Jason Kidd - 96 to 08
9) Mad Max - 91 to 96, those Rockets revoluntionized the way 3pters were used.
10) Glen Rice - 92 to 97. He just started to suck after that.

So you see, most of the 3pt leaders did their damage in the late 90's to now.

Also, looking at the league leaders, up until 87, the highest 3PA in a season was 257 by Darrell Griffith, from 88 to 94, the highest was Michael Adams with 564 for the run and gun Nuggets, and the rest were all less than 480.
Then the madness begins, with the leaders shooting more than 564 attemps in all but 3 seasons (including the strike shortened season)

There is no doubt 3 pt shooting has increased by a huge amount in the last 15 years or so.


As you looked at Jordan's best 9 years, between what ages were they?

It wasn't Jordan's 9 best years, it was 9 consecutive full seasons he played in, and he was between 23 and 33. Kobe is already 30.

[Allanon]

This is strictly based on the fact that Kobe started off at a much earlier age than Jordan. Besides, Jordan has 10 All-NBA 1st teams, Kobe has 6. He has to be at the top of his game for 4 more years, which, while entirely possible, is difficult and not as easy as you make it sound. With players like Chris Paul and Dwayne Wade coming into their primes, Kobe will have to keep up.

I don't think Kobe's going to be penalized for starting earlier than Jordan as Kobe didn't get much PT in the ealier years anyways. CP3 is a point guard and will have his place. DWade is definitely a compelling player and #2 behind Kobe at the SG spot. I don't know if DWade is ready to pass up Kobe in the near future, this year will tell.



For sure? He would have to score 2300 points a year for the next 4.6 years to catch Jordan. And to catch Karl Malone, he would have to do it for another 6.6 years. That would take Kobe well into his mid-30s.

Kobe's averaged 2,500 points a season over the last 3 years. Let's give him some decline and give him 2,000 points a season. He'll pass up Jordan by 35 with probably 2-3 more years of playing time left to catch up with the Mailman. This is one of the easier milestones in Kobe's career I think.



Top 10 3 pt shooters (attempts) and the years they made their most damage:
1) Reggie Miller - 92 to 04, peaking at around 97.
2) Ray Allen - 97 to 08 (pretty much his entire career), but an obvious upward trend later on in his career.
3) Tim Hardaway - 92 to 02, peaking 97 onwards.
4) Nick Van Exel - 94 to 02, making most of his damage earlier on.
5) Dale Ellis - 89 to 98, making most of his damage later. To witness, he led the league in 3PA in 87 with 240 attempts, it's common to have over 400 attempts nowadays.
6) Antoine Walker - 01 to 06, I don't know why he is shooting that much.
7) Eddie Jones - 97 to 06
8) Jason Kidd - 96 to 08
9) Mad Max - 91 to 96, those Rockets revoluntionized the way 3pters were used.
10) Glen Rice - 92 to 97. He just started to suck after that.

So you see, most of the 3pt leaders did their damage in the late 90's to now.


Why are you considering their peak number which is normally thrown out as oddball #'s? Practically all of those guys were known for their 3 point shooting since they entered the NBA. One of the best known 3 point shooters ever was Larry Bird and he was an 80s guy. Jordan just didn't have the skill.



There is no doubt 3 pt shooting has increased by a huge amount in the last 15 years or so.

Yes 3 point shooting has increased dramatically but scoring in general has increased dramatically since the 90s. Also, practically all of the best 3 point shooters come from Jordan's era.



It wasn't Jordan's 9 best years, it was 9 consecutive full seasons he played in, and he was between 23 and 33. Kobe is already 30.

I dont think Jordan accomplished that much by age 33. Please check your facts below again. Also, a more telling statistic (which my friend wouldn't post :)) would be to compare the two at the age of 29 (Kobe just turned 30 and has the full season left).



From an accomplishment stand point, in the years I used to compare the two, Jordan won:
1 DPoY
5 MVPs
5 Finals MVP (I had to throw out 98, because it was the last season of Jordan's prime)
9 All-NBA 1st teams
8 All-D 1st teams
Won 5 titles as the main man.
Led the league in scoring 9 times
Finished 8th in assists once
Led the league in steals 3 times, and top 10 another 5 times

[DPG21920]

I never argued with you on these points. I never said your point is wrong. READ MY POSTS. Why are you presenting a premise that has no argument?

It has an argument. The reason I asked you if you thought Kobe was thought of as "arguably" the GOAT now was because I do not think he can make a quantum leap in his game in order to propel him into the conversation. Even though he may win rings or finals MVP's do you really think his game will change enough to make him comparable to the GOAT? He is a great player with a great team now, that does not mean that just because he wins, that his game has evolved enough to ever warrant a comparison.



You did not say my opinion was wrong, but you were responding to my statement what OTHERS said.

I don't need to present facts because I state that he CAN catch Jordan, not WILL catch Jordan. Others must present facts since they say he CANNOT which is absolute.

That is what is wrong with your statements. You are speaking in terms of "can" are "possible" then asking others to provide "facts" in order to dispute you. I think you are getting caught up on the terminology. I think people know he "can", they just think it is highly improbable, which is opinion, so they need no facts to dispute your non-facts.


Sorry, that's craziness. I'm talking about Kobe MAY do, that is not a comparison. Future tense, CAN do, not HAS DONE.


I see several instances of you using Jordan and Kobe in the same sentence. So you are also comparing Jordan with Kobe? I thought you said Kobe shoudl never be mentioned with Jordan? That's just crazy logic.


I already said, you keep basing your comparison based on future what-ifs, when I say it is probably irrelevant based on my reasoning above. You know what I meant by that. It wasn't literally that you used the names together, it was context, do not play dumb like a child.



I'm not beating around the bush, you're jumping to conclusions.

I understand you think that: the Lakers can win OVER 70 games, that Bynum is better than David Robinson (or will be) and the Kobe can "catch" Jordan, but if you make such outlandish claims (and they are considering what has to be done in order to accomplish the tasks, by breaking every conceivable record known to basketball implying that these Lakers ARE THE BEST TEAM EVER IN BASKETBALL) you must be prepared to be met with FACTS and OPINIONS.

What is the point of giving you facts, when you are dismissive of them anyways. Every statistic and number given to you, is just argued about by you and you keep asking for more. If anything, the burden of proof lies on you to somehow prove he and the Lakers can do the things you have OPINIONS on since they are seemingly so outlandish.

[Allanon]

It has an argument. The reason I asked you if you thought Kobe was thought of as "arguably" the GOAT now was because I do not think he can make a quantum leap in his game in order to propel him into the conversation. Even though he may win rings or finals MVP's do you really think his game will change enough to make him comparable to the GOAT? He is a great player with a great team now, that does not mean that just because he wins, that his game has evolved enough to ever warrant a comparison.

That is a future argument, not a present argument. You say it yourself "I do not THINK he can make a quantum leap..." That is opinion and I never said your opinion was wrong.



That is what is wrong with your statements. You are speaking in terms of "can" are "possible" then asking others to provide "facts" in order to dispute you. I think you are getting caught up on the terminology. I think people know he "can", they just think it is highly improbable, which is opinion, so they need no facts to dispute your non-facts.

I am asking for facts because I am talking possibilities which may or may not be wrong. Others are saying CANNOT which is absolute and must be correct only proven by facts.



I already said, you keep basing your comparison based on future what-ifs, when I say it is probably irrelevant based on my reasoning above. You know what I meant by that. It wasn't literally that you used the names together, it was context, do not play dumb like a child.

Stop acting like you're a stupid kid, you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. You contradicted yourself.



I understand you think that: the Lakers can win OVER 70 games, that Bynum is better than David Robinson (or will be) and the Kobe can "catch" Jordan, but if you make such outlandish claims (and they are considering what has to be done in order to accomplish the tasks, by breaking every conceivable record known to basketball implying that these Lakers ARE THE BEST TEAM EVER IN BASKETBALL) you must be prepared to be met with FACTS and OPINIONS.

I've been met with little fact and lots of OPINIONS. Opinions are fine by me, it doesn't mean my opinion is more right or wrong than yours and others. Am I wrong to think the Lakers will win 70 games this year? I NEVER said Bynum was better than DRob...quotes, links please? Am I wrong to think Bynum MAY be better than Robinson?



What is the point of giving you facts, when you are dismissive of them anyways. Every statistic and number given to you, is just argued about by you and you keep asking for more. If anything, the burden of proof lies on you to somehow prove he and the Lakers can do the things you have OPINIONS on since they are seemingly so outlandish.

Because facts are given without context and some are just wrong. I dismiss facts putting Jordan's end of career #'s vs Kobe's current career. Soma are wrong, for example "Jordan is faaar ahead of Kobe at age 30." Is this a "fact" you think I should not dismiss? You think Jordan was "faaar ahead of Kobe at age 30?"

[DPG21920]

That is a future argument, not a present argument. You say it yourself "I do not THINK he can make a quantum leap..." That is opinion and I never said your opinion was wrong.



I am asking for facts because I am talking possibilities which may or may not be wrong. Others are saying CANNOT which is absolute and must be correct only proven by facts.



Stop acting like you're a stupid kid, you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. You contradicted yourself.



I've been met with little fact and lots of OPINIONS. Opinions are fine by me, it doesn't mean my opinion is more right or wrong than yours and others. Am I wrong to think the Lakers will win 70 games this year? Am I wrong to think Bynum MAY be better than Robinson?



Because facts are given without context and some are just wrong. I dismiss facts putting Jordan's end of career #'s vs Kobe's current career. Soma are wrong, for example "Jordan is faaar ahead of Kobe at age 30." Is this a "fact" you think I should not dismiss? You think Jordan was "faaar ahead of Kobe at age 30?"

I never contradicted myself. You said yourself that Kobe is not even close to the greatest player ever right now. So do you think his game will change enough to do so? Or do you think just by catching the "ring" marks that will do it? Because if he wins rings, but his game does not change then he is just as comparable to the GOAT now as he will be in the future.

You are the one that is making absurd claims. If you do so, the burden of proof is ON YOU to provide facts on why you think something. Something factual must have come your way to lead you to believe that: the Lakers will win 70+ games, that Bynum is (or will be) better than Robinson, and that Kobe COULD "catch" Jordan, hence implying that Kobe will be in the consideration of the GOAT, this Lakers team is the best in the history of the NBA and Bynum will be better than Robinson. Lets hear some of your facts that led you to this conclusions and ASSumptions.

[Allanon]

I never contradicted myself. You said yourself that Kobe is not even close to the greatest player ever right now. So do you think his game will change enough to do so? Or do you think just by catching the "ring" marks that will do it? Because if he wins rings, but his game does not change then he is just as comparable to the GOAT now as he will be in the future.

Yes, I do believe if Kobe wins 7-8 rings, he'll have a case to be GOAT. Along the way, he'll pick up a couple of Finals MVPs and perhaps an MVP or two.



You are the one that is making absurd claims. If you do so, the burden of proof is ON YOU to provide facts on why you think something. Something factual must have come your way to lead you to believe that: the Lakers will win 70+ games, that Bynum is (or will be) better than Robinson, and that Kobe COULD "catch" Jordan, hence implying that Kobe will be in the consideration of the GOAT, this Lakers team is the best in the history of the NBA and Bynum will be better than Robinson. Lets hear some of your facts that led you to this conclusions and ASSumptions.

I'm not providing it as a fact, I am saying it's possible that Kobe can catch Jordan. I am not saying he WILL catch Jordan, just that he MAY do so. If Kobe does not catch Jordan, I am right. If Kobe does NOT catch Jordan, I am also right. However, if you say he CANNOT catch Jordan, then that is a right or wrong as it is absolute and therefore facts must be given.

I make NO assumptions but I leave the door open for a yes or no.

Are you saying that Kobe CANNOT and absolutely WILL NOT catch Jordan and be considered GOAT?

You think Jordan was "faaar ahead of Kobe at age 30?"

[DPG21920]

Jordan averaged 36 points, 7 rebounds and 6 assists during those three playoff runs. If that's "decimation", then there needs to be a new word for what's been happening to Kobe.


6 time finals MVP vs 0 :(


overated...shaq might have been Finals mvp, but 2 of the 3 championship years, Kobe was overall playoff MVP....and most people including haters would even agree with that.


2000
Kobe 21.1 PPG, 4.5 RPG, 4.4 APG, 1.5 SPG on .442%
Shaq 30.7 PPG, 15.4 RPG, 3.1 APG, 2.5 BPG on .556%

2001
Kobe 29.4 PPG, 7.3 RPG, 6.1 APG, 1.5 SPG on .469%
Shaq 30.4 PPG, 15.4 RPG, 3.2 APG, 2.5 BPG on .555%

2002
Kobe 26.6 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 4.6 APG, 1.5 SPG on .434%
Shaq 28.5 PPG, 12.6 RPG, 2.8 APG, 2.5 BPG on .529%

The only playoff run he was close to Shaq was in 2001. Shaq was overall playoff MVP' in every championship, aswell as Finals MVP.


It can't, he's 30 years old already, he has what maybe 4 or 5 years of prime play left? So what you expect him to win 4 or 5 titles in a row, multiple more league MVP's, finals MVP's, the works. Basically Kobe and the Lakers have to be flawless for the rest of Kobe's prime. This is coming off a finals loss to the Celtics. You are not even making this push for Kobe, off a title. Plus how much longer before Lebron has a team that can challenge for it all? He has every bit the physical talent that Kobe has, maybe more. Kobe is just not going to hit MJ's level.


Read em and weap

Jackson is asked to confirm that he feels Kobe has better skills then spends most of the interview praising Jordan and saying what he does better than Kobe. And on defense it is no fucking contest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_WNTx3gG_s


Does Kobe have better skills??

"He does well but MJ is stronger"

"MJ has a better interior game, the best of all time"

"MJ had a better FG%"

"MJ had better hands, the ball was magic in his hands"


"Perhaps Kobe is a better shooter"

He didn't even Kobe that clear edge, LOL

And stop talking about D. Only a blind man with a man crush on Kobe would claim he is a great defender on Jordan's level. MJ would shut the opposition down night after night. He and Pippen gave people nightmares on that end of the floor. I still can't believe the Laker fans are in here talking about MJ and Kobe after the ass kicking Paul friggin Piece just gave him.

Wake up folks!!!


No scoring titles, 5 league mvp's, 6 rings, 6 finals mvps, legendary playoff performances and one insane clutch shot after another make you great.



"Kobe is not close, but he's not done. We're not talking about now, you're trying to be a prophet in saying Kobe "never" will catch Jordan. You're calling your future prediction on Kobe "an accurate assessment".

He is so faaaar behind in terms of accomplishments at age 30 it is crazy. He showed us nothing in the finals against the Celtics. Even less against the Pistons in 2004. This is your problem Kobe has gotten beat-down by teams Jordan would manhandle in the same position. MJ does not lose to the Pistons playing with Shaq my friend. MJ does not let Pierce eat his lunch in 6 games in the finals. You seem to think "Well if he gets 6 rings he is on Jordan's level", it's not that simple.



"When Jordan gets first team all defense the media is 100% right but when Kobe gets selections to the first team, "the media often fucks it up".

Kobe is a very good defender, but Jordan was an all time shut-down defender. Again is that just my opinion, yes it is. I doubt too many would hand Kobe the nod over MJ on D, except Laker fans, hugging very tightly to Kobe's nuts.


From a statistical stand point, it is difficult to compare Kobe and Jordan based on the following reasons:
1) Kobe came straight out of high school and didn't hit his prime until his fourth year, while Jordan hit the ground running.
2) They played in massively different era; Kobe in an era where perimeter threat is the way to go (other than Stoudemire, and earlier on, Shaq, most of the top-10 scorers year-in-year out are perimeter threats. Jordan on the other hand, played in an era that was still post dominated (Malone, Olajuwon, Barkley, Ewing, Robinson, Shaq later on, McHale, Aguirre).
3) Rules were different, hand checks were thrown out, but defensive schemes were more complex.

But these differences aside, the statistics would give a brief look at how they compared to each other.

I took out Kobe's worse seasons, and only used his numbers from 2000 to 2008, a total of 9 seasons, and then took Jordan's nine best statistical seasons (1987 to 1993, 96 and 97). The reason is because Kobe's numbers the 1st 3 seasons were his "college" days, and Jordan took a couple of years off for baseball).

I then took per 36 minute production of the two. The reason is because some players play more than others, and given that these two are such top conditioned athletes and they played close to / more than 36 minutes a game anyways, we don't have to worry about them running out of gas and see production drops.

The result is as follows:
MJ is better than Kobe in:
Rebounds (19%)
Assists (8%)
Steals (57%)
Blocks (60%)
Turnovers (-1%)
Fouls (-5%)
Points (18%)
FG% (5.7%)
3P% (0.4%)
FT% (0.1%)

Kobe was better than Jordan in 3PA and 3PM by almost 90%.

I was shocked by the results, especially those around 3P%, but it seems like both are about equal during their prime years, and Jordan improved his 3P% dramatically as his career progresses, and had the highest 3P% in the years where he made most of his attempts (something about shot selection).

It comes as no surprise that Kobe made more 3pters as this is an era when 3pt shooting has matured into a serious weapon, while in the 80's, and even the early 90's, the shot was nothing more than a gimmick and an option for a team to come back in a high-risk/high-reward maner.

From an accomplishment stand point, in the years I used to compare the two, Jordan won:
1 DPoY
5 MVPs
5 Finals MVP (I had to throw out 98, because it was the last season of Jordan's prime)
9 All-NBA 1st teams
8 All-D 1st teams
Won 5 titles as the main man.
Led the league in scoring 9 times
Finished 8th in assists once
Led the league in steals 3 times, and top 10 another 5 times

For Kobe Bryant, he won:
1 MVP
All NBA 1st team 6 times
All NBA 2nd team twice
All NBA 3rd team once
All D 1st team 6 times
All D 2nd team twice
Led the league in scoring twice
Finishing top 10 in scoring another 6 times
Finished top 10 in steals 3 times
Won 3 titles as the 2nd best player on the team.

So from both a statistical point of view and from an accomplishment point of view, Jordan dwarfed Kobe in their respective 9 years of prime. Unless Kobe can drastically improve over the next 5 or 6 years, which means that he will go into his "real" prime after playing for 12 seasons, which in itself is extremely rare, Kobe has no chance of catching Jordan.


This is strictly based on the fact that Kobe started off at a much earlier age than Jordan. Besides, Jordan has 10 All-NBA 1st teams, Kobe has 6. He has to be at the top of his game for 4 more years, which, while entirely possible, is difficult and not as easy as you make it sound. With players like Chris Paul and Dwayne Wade coming into their primes, Kobe will have to keep up.




For sure? He would have to score 2300 points a year for the next 4.6 years to catch Jordan. And to catch Karl Malone, he would have to do it for another 6.6 years. That would take Kobe well into his mid-30s.

Again, entirely possible, just not as probable as most people make it out to be.



Top 10 3 pt shooters (attempts) and the years they made their most damage:
1) Reggie Miller - 92 to 04, peaking at around 97.
2) Ray Allen - 97 to 08 (pretty much his entire career), but an obvious upward trend later on in his career.
3) Tim Hardaway - 92 to 02, peaking 97 onwards.
4) Nick Van Exel - 94 to 02, making most of his damage earlier on.
5) Dale Ellis - 89 to 98, making most of his damage later. To witness, he led the league in 3PA in 87 with 240 attempts, it's common to have over 400 attempts nowadays.
6) Antoine Walker - 01 to 06, I don't know why he is shooting that much.
7) Eddie Jones - 97 to 06
8) Jason Kidd - 96 to 08
9) Mad Max - 91 to 96, those Rockets revoluntionized the way 3pters were used.
10) Glen Rice - 92 to 97. He just started to suck after that.

So you see, most of the 3pt leaders did their damage in the late 90's to now.

Also, looking at the league leaders, up until 87, the highest 3PA in a season was 257 by Darrell Griffith, from 88 to 94, the highest was Michael Adams with 564 for the run and gun Nuggets, and the rest were all less than 480.
Then the madness begins, with the leaders shooting more than 564 attemps in all but 3 seasons (including the strike shortened season)

There is no doubt 3 pt shooting has increased by a huge amount in the last 15 years or so.



It wasn't Jordan's 9 best years, it was 9 consecutive full seasons he played in, and he was between 23 and 33. Kobe is already 30.

There is a lot of facts in there

[Allanon]

There is a lot of facts in there

Facts given without relevance and without context are useless. Almost all of those comparisons are pitting end of career Jordan vs 30 year old Kobe which isn't logical.

That's just alot of irrelevant "facts". Hell if I compared end of career Magic to Jordan at age 30, Jordan would look like a rookie.

Ambchang came up with the best analysis so far but got the years and accomplished mixed up. He said age 33 Jordan had 5 MVPS and 5 rings.

Again, a simple question: You think Jordan was "faaar ahead of Kobe at age 30"?

Do you even read? Are those "facts" correct or did you just accept them because they aren't positive for Kobe?

[DPG21920]

Yes, I do believe if Kobe wins 7-8 rings, he'll have a case to be GOAT. Along the way, he'll pick up a couple of Finals MVPs and perhaps an MVP or two.

That is not what I asked, quit dodging the question. I asked do you think that Kobe's game (not his hardware count) right now warrants discussion for the GOAT? If yes, please explain using facts. If no, do you think that even if he wins 7-8 rings, a couple of finals MVPs and perhaps a MVP or two, that his GAME, his actual SKILL will have improved enough from now until then to warrant GOAT talk? Do you think it will be because he became more skillful or made a leap in his game that he will win hardware and awards, or because he has a great team?



I'm not providing it as a fact, I am saying it's possible that Kobe can catch Jordan. I am not saying he WILL catch Jordan, just that he MAY do so. If Kobe does not catch Jordan, I am right. If Kobe does NOT catch Jordan, I am also right. However, if you say he CANNOT catch Jordan, then that is a right or wrong as it is absolute and therefore facts must be given.

I make NO assumptions but I leave the door open for a yes or no.

So you cannot be wrong? I would like to know how someone cannot be wrong. CANNOT is not WILL NOT, it is still an opinion. You are making an assumption because you said YOU THINK that Kobe can win rings, MVPs and such. That means you are assuming he CAN DO IT. Just because you are trying to cover your ass all ways, does not mean you should not have to provide facts on why you came to such "open door" theories. Just like if someone says "this food is bad". That is an opinion. How did they come to the opinion? Either they tasted the food and there is factual evidence, or they never tasted it and are just ignorant and spouting off. Same with you. Either you saw something factual that leads you to believe Kobe "may" catch Jordan, or that the Lakers will win 70+ games. Or you or just talking out of your ass.



Are you saying that Kobe CANNOT and absolutely WILL NOT catch Jordan and be considered GOAT?

You think Jordan was "faaar ahead of Kobe at age 30?"

I am saying that:
1) it is improbable that Kobe will catch Jordan in rings, MVPs, and finals MVPs
2) that it is unlikely that the Lakers will win 70+ games
3) that it is unlikely that Bynum will be better than Robinson

I think that by age 30, Jordan was already widely considered at least in the ballpark of GOAT by his skill and not just his hardware. Kobe is not.

[DPG21920]

Facts given without relevance and without context are useless. Almost all of those comparisons are pitting end of career Jordan vs 30 year old Kobe which isn't logical.

That's just alot of irrelevant "facts". Hell if I compared end of career Magic to Jordan at age 30, Jordan would look like a rookie.

Ambchang came up with the best analysis so far but got the years and accomplished mixed up. He said age 33 Jordan had 5 MVPS and 5 rings.

Again, a simple question: You think Jordan was "faaar ahead of Kobe at age 30"?

Do you even read? Are those "facts" correct or did you just accept them because they aren't positive for Kobe?

Irrelevant to you. Are you saying those things are untrue?

[Allanon]

Irrelevant to you. Are you saying those things are untrue?

They are true but irrelevant because they are END OF CAREER Jordan versus Kobe who has many years left.

If I compared finished Magic to 30 year old Jordan, who would be the better player?

Do you think that it is accurate to compare end of career accomplishments versus a player who is still in his prime with 5+ years of playing left?

[DPG21920]

They are true but irrelevant because they are END OF CAREER Jordan versus Kobe who has many years left.

Do you think that it is accurate to compare end of career accomplishments versus a player who is still in his prime?

I am saying where in this whole thread are any of your facts? You ask for facts, then you deem them irrelevant. Obviously all the people posting the facts thought they were relevant. Only you seem to think they are not. But I guess since you are right even when you are wrong...

[Allanon]

I am saying where in this whole thread are any of your facts? You ask for facts, then you deem them irrelevant. Obviously all the people posting the facts thought they were relevant. Only you seem to think they are not. But I guess since you are right even when you are wrong...

So you think those facts are relevant and accurate in comparison?

If I compared finished Magic to 30 year old Jordan, who would be the better player?

Do you think that it is accurate to compare end of career accomplishments versus a player who is still in his prime with 5+ years of playing left?

[angelbelow]

i cant believe this thread is still going but here are my thoughts.

at this point MJ is obviously the GOAT and kobe is nowhere close.

but i do agree that kobe needs to finish his career before we can really compare them. but i dont think kobe will be able to amass enough stats and awards and rings to matter.

[DPG21920]

So you think those facts are relevant and accurate in comparison?

If I compared finished Magic to 30 year old Jordan, who would be the better player?

Do you think that it is accurate to compare end of career accomplishments versus a player who is still in his prime with 5+ years of playing left?

Yes to a certain degree. Because it paints the picture of what Kobe will have to become.

[Allanon]

But I guess since you are right even when you are wrong...

You're right.

I said "Kobe can possibly catch Jordan".

If Kobe catches Jordan, am I wrong?

If Kobe does NOT catch Jordan, am I wrong?

[Allanon]

Yes to a certain degree. Because it paints the picture of what Kobe will have to become.

Answer the question:

If I compared finished Magic to 30 year old Jordan, who would be the better player?

Do you think that it is accurate to compare end of career accomplishments versus a player who is still in his prime with 5+ years of playing left?

[Obstructed_View]

Why are you considering their peak number which is normally thrown out as oddball #'s? Practically all of those guys were known for their 3 point shooting since they entered the NBA. One of the best known 3 point shooters ever was Larry Bird and he was an 80s guy.

The stat had to do with attempts. Larry Bird was known as a three point shooter for all star weekend. In actual games, he averaged over 200 attempts only twice in his career. Next time there's a Celtics game on ESPN Classic I suggest you watch it and see how many shots he takes. If you see one and the Celts aren't down by double digits consider yourself lucky.

As mentioned, the '94 Rockets were one of the first teams to actually use the three point shot as a consistent weapon and to hit it at a high percentage. What you see today is in no way representative of what happened before that.


Jordan just didn't have the skill.
You should have your Laker fandom stripped of you for saying something so ignorant.

[Allanon]

Yes to a certain degree. Because it paints the picture of what Kobe will have to become.

Relevant and accurate stats?

You're just a parrot if agreeing with that wrong stuff and saying they're relevant. Is inaccurate information "relevant"

Did Jordan have 5 rings and 5 MVPs at age 33?

Was Jordan "faaar" ahead of Kobe at age 30?

[DPG21920]

Answer the question:

If I compared finished Magic to 30 year old Jordan, who would be the better player?

Do you think that it is accurate to compare end of career accomplishments versus a player who is still in his prime with 5+ years of playing left?

I have answered all your questions and you have dodged mine. You should read the link in the Spurs forum about the GM votes. Especially the parts about the best players, finishers... I remember you telling me that Bynum was the best finisher. I said what about Lebron or Amare or TP. Go see what people who watch them closest think...

[DPG21920]

Relevant and accurate stats?

You're just a parrot if agreeing with that wrong stuff and saying they're relevant. Is inaccurate information "relevant"

Did Jordan have 5 rings and 5 MVPs at age 33?

Was Jordan "faaar" ahead of Kobe at age 30?

They are relevant. Saying what MJ finished his career with is not inaccurate or irrelevant. It shows you what Kobe would have to do just with regards to winning hardware to even be able to start.

Jordan skill wise was far ahead of Kobe at age 30. Not ring wise, not awards wise. BASKETBALL WISE.

[Obstructed_View]

Answer the question:

If I compared finished Magic to 30 year old Jordan, who would be the better player?

Do you think that it is accurate to compare end of career accomplishments versus a player who is still in his prime with 5+ years of playing left?

Since the original question from the Laker fan was about who did what better, those comparisons can be made now. Everyone knew what Jordan was by the time he was 30, and Kobe just doesn't compare in the mind of anyone that isn't a rabid Laker fan. They just aren't the same. If Kobe wins four to six more regular season and finals MVP trophies before he retires then we'll all revisit the comparison. Steve Nash would earn his way into the discussion if he did that, though.

[Allanon]

The stat had to do with attempts. Larry Bird was known as a three point shooter for all star weekend. In actual games, he averaged over 200 attempts only twice in his career. Next time there's a Celtics game on ESPN Classic I suggest you watch it and see how many shots he takes. If you see one and the Celts aren't down by double digits consider yourself lucky.

Bird wasn't known for shooting 3's in regular season games? He's only known for shooting 3's in the All Star game?



As mentioned, the '94 Rockets were one of the first teams to actually use the three point shot as a consistent weapon and to hit it at a high percentage. What you see today is in no way representative of what happened before that.

'94 Rockets. What year did Jordan retire?



You should have your Laker fandom stripped of you for saying something so ignorant.

Jordan was as skilled a 3 point shooter as Kobe? Can he walk on water too?

[Allanon]

They are relevant. Saying what MJ finished his career with is not inaccurate or irrelevant. It shows you what Kobe would have to do just with regards to winning hardware to even be able to start.

Jordan skill wise was far ahead of Kobe at age 30. Not ring wise, not awards wise. BASKETBALL WISE.

What relevance do wrong "facts" have?

You keep saying Kobe can never catch up with Jordan's accomplishments (6 rings, Finals MVPs, etc), why are you conveniently forgetting this when comparing at age 30?

[Allanon]

Since the original question from the Laker fan was about who did what better, those comparisons can be made now. They just aren't the same.
That's the original blog post but this conversation is not about the original blog post which said Kobe is as good as Jordan right now and I don't agree.



Everyone knew what Jordan was by the time he was 30, and Kobe just doesn't compare in the mind of anyone that isn't a rabid Laker fan.

Even though Jordan was already a highlight reel, he wasn't a winner yet. Jordan is GOAT because he was a winner. Kobe's not there yet but he's starting his run right at the same time Jordan did his, age 30.



If Kobe wins four to six more regular season and finals MVP trophies before he retires then we'll all revisit the comparison. Steve Nash would earn his way into the discussion if he did that, though.

That's my whole point, let's wait and see before we close the book on Kobe's career.

[DPG21920]

What relevance do wrong "facts" have?

You keep saying Kobe can never catch up with Jordan's accomplishments (6 rings, Finals MVPs, etc), why are you conveniently forgetting this when comparing at age 30?

Where did I say he can never do it? I said I do not believe he can and that it is unlikely. How are the facts wrong? We all know what Jordan won. So saying Kobe has to meet this level is not wrong and he still has time. No one is saying that Kobe right now is done because he does not have in his career that is ongoing what Jordan has for his career that is over.

People are saying that even if Kobe at the end of his career has the same amount of titles and awards (which is unlikely) that he still won't be considered the GOAT because he is not a better player.

[Allanon]

Where did I say he can never do it? I said I do not believe he can and that it is unlikely.

EXACTLY, thank you for agreeing with me. At least you can admit he CAN do it (although unlikely), as I said we don't have an argument.



How are the facts wrong?

At age 33, how many MVPs, Finals MVPs, DPOY awards, NBA first team selections, etc, did Jordan have?



We all know what Jordan won. So saying Kobe has to meet this level is not wrong and he still has time. No one is saying that Kobe right now is done because he does not have in his career that is ongoing what Jordan has for his career that is over.

Read back a few posts, it was already posted that Kobe "CANNOT", that was the original post I replied to, see for yourself.



People are saying that even if Kobe at the end of his career has the same amount of titles and awards (which is unlikely) that he still won't be considered the GOAT because he is not a better player.

People are fine in saying that, I don't disagree. I said what IF Kobe has MORE? Read one of my first posts after Jamstone, I said Kobe would need at least 7 rings, and what IF he had 8?

[DPG21920]

That's the original blog post but this conversation is not about the original blog post which said Kobe is as good as Jordan right now and I don't agree.



Even though Jordan was already a highlight reel, he wasn't a winner yet. Jordan is GOAT because he was a winner. Kobe's not there yet but he's starting his run right at the same time Jordan did his, age 30.



That's my whole point, let's wait and see before we close the book on Kobe's career.

That is where you are wrong. Winning is part of it. The winning is the effect, not the cause. Jordan was the best because he was the best basketball player. Naturally he won because of that. Kobe is not near Jordan with regards to skill. Not now, not at any age. He may make a quantum leap in his game, but I doubt it.

[Allanon]

That is where you are wrong. Winning is part of it. The winning is the effect, not the cause. Jordan was the best because he was the best basketball player. Naturally he won because of that. Kobe is not near Jordan with regards to skill. Not now, not at any age. He may make a quantum leap in his game, but I doubt it.

That is opinion and you're entitled to it.

[DPG21920]

EXACTLY, thank you for agreeing with me. At least you can admit he CAN do it (although unlikely), as I said we don't have an argument.



At age 33, how many MVPs, Finals MVPs, DPOY awards, NBA first team selections, etc, did Jordan have?



Read back a few posts, it was already posted that Kobe "CANNOT", that was the original post I replied to, see for yourself.


People are fine in saying that, I don't disagree. I said what IF Kobe has MORE? Read one of my first posts after Jamstone, I said Kobe would need at least 7 rings, and what IF he had 8?


I read what you said. I have made the argument that Jordan is not better than Kobe because of the rings. So if Kobe wins 8 rings, that does not make him better in my book. Jordan was the better player. If neither Kobe or Jordan win any rings, who do you take?

[Allanon]

I read what you said. I have made the argument that Jordan is not better than Kobe because of the rings. So if Kobe wins 8 rings, that does not make him better in my book.

That is 1 fan's opinion but at least it's arguable IF Kobe gets 8 rings.



If neither Kobe or Jordan win any rings, who do you take?

30 year old Kobe and 30 year old Jordan?

On the Bulls, I take Jordan. On the Lakers, I take Kobe, they fit their respective teams better.

[DPG21920]

That is 1 fan's opinion but at least it's arguable IF Kobe gets 8 rings.



30 year old Kobe and 30 year old Jordan?

On the Bulls, I take Jordan. On the Lakers, I take Kobe, they fit their respective teams better.

Who was the better basketball player at age 30, do not talk about systems or teams or anything.

[Allanon]

Who was the better basketball player at age 30, do not talk about systems or teams or anything.

At age 30, I would say they're dead even and if forced to pick 1, I would take Kobe.

[DPG21920]

At the same age, would you take Bynum or Robinson (meaning Bynum's age 21 to 22 years old)

[Allanon]

At the same age, would you take Bynum or Robinson (meaning Bynum's age 21 to 22 years old)

Ouch. I'd have to go with Robinson. I may change my mind in a few months.

[dirk4mvp]

lmao lmao lmao lmao

I used to think Allanon was a rational, level headed Laker fan until I read this thread. It's clear he's not.

[Allanon]

lmao lmao lmao lmao

I used to think Allanon was a rational, level headed Laker fan until I read this thread. It's clear he's not.

Which part was irrational? You think it's impossible for Kobe to ever catch Jordan even though they've accomplished the same by the age of 30?

[dirk4mvp]

At age 30, I would say they're dead even and if forced to pick 1, I would take Kobe.

Laker fans...and only laker fans would say that. It's all a matter that he's on your favorite team. If he played for the Hornets, I doubt you'd say that.



Ouch. I'd have to go with Robinson. I may change my mind in a few months.

lmao why? because he's been lifting weights and had a decent stretch of a season last year before he got injured.

[Allanon]

Laker fans...and only laker fans would say that. It's all a matter that he's on your favorite team. If he played for the Hornets, I doubt you'd say that.

What had Jordan done by the day he turned 30?

[dirk4mvp]

He went to college for 3 years. And since you've been all about being fair to both players in this thead, it doesn't quite work like that.

[Allanon]

He went to college for 3 years. And since you've been all about being fair to both players in this thead, it doesn't quite work like that.

Why are you penalizing Kobe for getting more NBA experience? The question was at age 30, who would you pick (forget everything else). I

The fact of the matter is the day they turned 30, both players were/are virtually the same with Kobe having more experience and MORE accomplishments. Jordan didn't start killing until this exact same year Kobe is in.

That's why I chose Kobe, by a slight margin, this isn't reasonable?

[Obstructed_View]

What had Jordan done by the day he turned 30?

I presume that you include "the day he turned 30" for some reason, but by the end of the season in which he turned 30, Jordan had won an NCAA title, been the Naismith and Wooden player of the year in college, had won two regular season MVPs, led the league in scoring seven years in a row, had won three NBA titles and three Finals MVPs, became the second person in NBA history to score 3000 points in a season (also became the first person in NBA history to get 200 steals and 100 blocks in that same season, yet wasn't awarded the MVP), set the record for most points in a playoff game...

If you'd like to cut off "by the day he turned 30" he had done all those things with the exception of the last title and one of the finals MVP awards.

The only things Kobe Bryant has done by the age of 30 that Jordan never did is score 81 points against Toronto, tank a playoff game to spite his team and get outplayed and lose in the finals.

By your weak attempts to compare, someone could make a case that Tony Parker is as close to Jordan as Kobe is.

[JamStone]

I presume that you include "the day he turned 30" for some reason, but by the end of the season in which he turned 30, Jordan had won an NCAA title, been the Naismith and Wooden player of the year in college, had won two regular season MVPs, led the league in scoring seven years in a row, had won three NBA titles and three Finals MVPs, became the second person in NBA history to score 3000 points in a season (also became the first person in NBA history to get 200 steals and 100 blocks in that same season, yet wasn't awarded the MVP), set the record for most points in a playoff game...

If you'd like to cut off "by the day he turned 30" he had done all those things with the exception of the last title and one of the finals MVP awards.

The only things Kobe Bryant has done by the age of 30 that Jordan never did is score 81 points against Toronto, tank a playoff game to spite his team and get outplayed and lose in the finals.

By your weak attempts to compare, someone could make a case that Tony Parker is as close to Jordan as Kobe is.

:rollin

/thread


edit: they need a smiley face emoticon that shits on another smiley face emoticon.

[ambchang]

I don't think Kobe's going to be penalized for starting earlier than Jordan as Kobe didn't get much PT in the ealier years anyways. CP3 is a point guard and will have his place. DWade is definitely a compelling player and #2 behind Kobe at the SG spot. I don't know if DWade is ready to pass up Kobe in the near future, this year will tell.

4 more years is not the near future, 4 years is a long time in the NBA. And Kobe wasn't penalized for starting earlier, I took those "non-prime" years off te calcualtion to make it fair for Kobe. If anything, the analysis was biased towards Kobe.


Kobe's averaged 2,500 points a season over the last 3 years. Let's give him some decline and give him 2,000 points a season. He'll pass up Jordan by 35 with probably 2-3 more years of playing time left to catch up with the Mailman. This is one of the easier milestones in Kobe's career I think.

I would not use the word easy to describe this task. Scoring 2000 points a season is tough, doing it 5 more seasons is tougher, doing it 8 season straight is record approaching.


Why are you considering their peak number which is normally thrown out as oddball #'s? Practically all of those guys were known for their 3 point shooting since they entered the NBA. One of the best known 3 point shooters ever was Larry Bird and he was an 80s guy. Jordan just didn't have the skill.

I didn't just take out their best season, I took the string of years when they had the most 3PAs, which is consistent with how you would look at 3Ps being a weapon.


Yes 3 point shooting has increased dramatically but scoring in general has increased dramatically since the 90s. Also, practically all of the best 3 point shooters come from Jordan's era.

So Kobe can’t even score more than Jordan even though Kobe was scoring in an era that has dramatically more scoring than Jordan’s? How would this help your case with Kobe having the same impact as Jordan?

Besides, the numbers don’t support you (Numbers are average per team):
Year PPG 3PA
2008 99.9 1485
2003 95.1 1204
1998 95.6 1042
1993 105.3 734
1988 108.2 410

We can see that the league has gone through huge dips in scoring in the mid 90’s to the early 00’s, and is bouncing back the last few years, while 3PA has consistently increased over the last 20 years. There is absolutely no doubt that the 3pter has been a bigger part of most team’s offense than in years past.

On the other hand, even though the league saw huge dips in scoring in the early to mid 90’s, Jordan’s output stayed relatively constant.



I dont think Jordan accomplished that much by age 33. Please check your facts below again. Also, a more telling statistic (which my friend wouldn't post :)) would be to compare the two at the age of 29 (Kobe just turned 30 and has the full season left).

Yes he did. If you have doubts, look it up and tell me which ones I missed. I could have misstated some of them, but I am not going to do the work to prove myself wrong, that is for you to do.

Kobe had more accomplishments by age 30 because he started to play in the league when he was 18, Jordan started when he was 23. Just because Kobe had 5 more years on him doesn’t make him more skilled, which was the original argument. Kobe started early strictly based on the fact that teams were drafting high school players in droves since Kevin Garnett’s, and to a less extent Shawn Kemp’s, success.

[Allanon]

I presume that you include "the day he turned 30" for some reason, but by the end of the season in which he turned 30, Jordan had won an NCAA title, been the Naismith and Wooden player of the year in college,

The Great Michael Jordan was so great he needs some extra bonus points from college to be compared with Kobe? :lol



had won two regular season MVPs, led the league in scoring seven years in a row

And had been called selfish because he was leading the league in scoring but not winning. Kobe could have led the league in scoring and also was called selfish.



became the second person in NBA history to score 3000 points in a season

You laugh at Kobe's 81 but Jordan's 3000 is a great career achievement .. bias. Even though Jordan was just another glorified Allen Iverson at that time.



had won three NBA titles and three Finals MVPs, (also became the first person in NBA history to get 200 steals and 100 blocks in that same season, yet wasn't awarded the MVP), set the record for most points in a playoff game...

Again, trying to give Jordan some more extra hand-jobbing. Kobe doesn't end his 30th year until this upcoming July. So on par.

On the day he turned 30, Jordan had 2 rings

Kobe has 3 rings



By your weak attempts to compare, someone could make a case that Tony Parker is as close to Jordan as Kobe is.

Uhm, you started the weak attempts to compare. Wake me up when Tony Parker wins MVP.

[Allanon]

Kobe had more accomplishments by age 30 because he started to play in the league when he was 18



Jordan started when he was 23. Just because Kobe had 5 more years on him doesn’t make him more skilled, which was the original argument. Kobe started early strictly based on the fact that teams were drafting high school players in droves since Kevin Garnett’s, and to a less extent Shawn Kemp’s, success.

When was "being more skilled" the argument? I believe the argument is Kobe that "faaar" behind Jordan at age 30 as another genius posted?




Yes he did. If you have doubts, look it up and tell me which ones I missed. I could have misstated some of them, but I am not going to do the work to prove myself wrong, that is for you to do.

Jordan had 4 rings at 33, only 1 more than Kobe has now at 30 years old, and if Kobe wins the title this year, he would have tied Jordan's 33 year old # of rings 3 years earlier.

[ambchang]

When was "being more skilled" the argument? I believe the argument is Kobe that "faaar" behind Jordan at age 30 as another genius posted?

Jordan had 4 rings at 33, only 1 more than Kobe has now at 30 years old, and if Kobe wins the title this year, he would have tied Jordan's 33 year old # of rings 3 years earlier.

Sure, if you want to argue Jordan and Kobe at age 30, look at Obstructed View's post, there really is no comparison after that.

And saying that Kobe won 3 rings and Jordan "only" won 2, while disregarding the difference between Shaq and Pippen is laughable. That is like saying Garnett > Barkley because he got one ring, or Ginobili > Clyde Drexler

[m33p0]

using the ring argument is foolish. see horry, robert for proof. it's not the number of rings, but the way the rings were obtained.

what a load of blithers this thread has become. but it is to be expected whenever some fool makes a kobe vs jordan piece of crap.

[Allanon]

Sure, if you want to argue Jordan and Kobe at age 30, look at Obstructed View's post, there really is no comparison after that.

Yes, Obstructed View's College awards night. And his forgetting to mention Kobe had 1 more ring than Jordan.



And saying that Kobe won 3 rings and Jordan "only" won 2, while disregarding the difference between Shaq and Pippen is laughable. That is like saying Garnett > Barkley because he got one ring, or Ginobili > Clyde Drexler

Pippen is also a Top50 player and arguably the best defender of that era. It takes two. Jordan never won without Pippen.

[Allanon]

using the ring argument is foolish. see horry, robert for proof. it's not the number of rings, but the way the rings were obtained.

what a load of blithers this thread has become. but it is to be expected whenever some fool makes a kobe vs jordan piece of crap.

Would Jordan have been GOAT without rings? See Chamerlain, Wilt for proof.

[Obstructed_View]

Yes, Obstructed View's College awards night. And his forgetting to mention Kobe had 1 more ring than Jordan.

:lol
Jordan turned 30 two months before he won his third ring. Your attempt to split hairs by birthday is no less lame than when you tried it the first time. Again, Parker has the same number of rings as Kobe, has one more Finals MVP and is four years younger. By your logic Parker>>>>>Kobe. Welcome to ridiculousville, population you.


Pippen is also a Top50 player and arguably the best defender of that era. It takes two. Jordan never won without Pippen.
That's as close to a true statement as you've made in this thread. Two things: Pip was the second best defender on the Bulls, and on the three Lakers championship teams, the part of Pippen was played by Kobe.

[Allanon]

:lol
Jordan turned 30 two months before he won his third ring. Your attempt to split hairs by birthday is no less lame than when you tried it the first time.

Yes, and if Kobe wins a ring this year, how old would he be? 30. Kobe hasn't played this season yet but you want to give Jordan an extra season? I can't believe the Great Jordan needs to have extra help by you.



Again, Parker has the same number of rings as Kobe, has one more Finals MVP and is four years younger. By your logic Parker>>>>>Kobe. Welcome to ridiculousville, population you.

Jordan had 2 MVPs, Kobe has 1. Parker 0. Wake me up when Parker gets an MVP. Until then, that's a baseless comparison. :sleep

[Obstructed_View]

Yes, and if Kobe wins a ring this year, how old would he be? 30. I can't believe the Great Jordan needs to have extra help by you.
When Jordan won his third ring, he was 30 years, two months. If Kobe wins a ring this year, it'll be his first as the best player on the team. That will only put him two behind Jordan with an extra year to do it.


Jordan had 2 MVPs, Kobe has 1. Parker 0. Wake me up when Parker gets an MVP. Until then, that's a baseless comparison. :sleep
Thank you for agreeing how stupid your argument was. Too bad it didn't stop you from continuing to make it.

[Allanon]

When Jordan won his third ring, he was 30 years, two months. If Kobe wins a ring this year, it'll be his first as the best player on the team. That will only put him two behind Jordan with an extra year to do it.

Oh, so now Kobe's 3 rings he already has means nothing? Tell that to Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili. If Kobe wins a ring this year, he will be 30 with 4 rings to Jordan's 3.



Thank you for agreeing how stupid your argument was. Too bad it didn't stop you from continuing to make it.

Stupid? You brought up Tony Parker, I didn't. That was YOUR stupid argument, not mines.

Pick a 30 or under player with at least 3 rings and 1 MVP and then we'll talk about how they stack up with Jordan at 30.

[ambchang]

Yes, Obstructed View's College awards night. And his forgetting to mention Kobe had 1 more ring than Jordan.

What is wrong with College Awards? Jordan DID accomplish them, and Kobe didn't. You are free to dismiss Jordan's college accomplishment because Kobe never played in college, but you are quick to group his accomplishments from age 18 to 23, when he played in the NBA earlier than Jordan did.


Pippen is also a Top50 player and arguably the best defender of that era. It takes two. Jordan never won without Pippen.

So? Are you also arguing Jordan = Pippen? They both have 6 rings, they can't win without another top 50 player, then even had the same supporting cast!

According to you, Otis Thorpe > Malone, because Thorpe won a ring with a top 50 player with him (Hakeem), and yet Malone couldn't with another top 50 player playing with him (Stockton). Hey Hakeem and Stockton are the same, they are both top 50 players!

[Allanon]

What is wrong with College Awards? Jordan DID accomplish them, and Kobe didn't. You are free to dismiss Jordan's college accomplishment because Kobe never played in college, but you are quick to group his accomplishments from age 18 to 23, when he played in the NBA earlier than Jordan did.

Sure, if you need to include College Awards, was Jordan that much greater than Jordan at age 30? It was said that Jordan was "faaar" ahead of Kobe at age 30...but you need to include College Awards? Including college awards doesn't sound "faaar" ahead to me. Sounds like another Obstructed View weak attempt to me :)



So? Are you also arguing Jordan = Pippen? They both have 6 rings, they can't win without another top 50 player, then even had the same supporting cast!

No, I'm saying you can't throw out Kobe's 3 rings just because he also had a great player with him. Kobe couldn't do it alone, Jordan couldn't either.



According to you, Otis Thorpe > Malone, because Thorpe won a ring with a top 50 player with him (Hakeem), and yet Malone couldn't with another top 50 player playing with him (Stockton). Hey Hakeem and Stockton are the same, they are both top 50 players!

According to me? When did I ever say playing with another great player made you better than x player? I said you cannot just throw out 1 player's accomplishments because he had a great player with him.

You're trying to take away Kobe's 3 rings because he played with Shaq, but Jordan get's a free pass on Pippen.

[Many PackYao]

You know what else he didn't do. Let someone with half his talent like Paul Pierce kick his ass in the NBA finals.I can't understand why Kobe let Clit Pierce do him like that.I kept yelling at the TV, it's time to take over the game Kobe!!..but it never happened. I was actually rooting for the Lakers to win because I like Kobe only and I really,really hate the Celtics.:bang

[ambchang]

Sure, if you need to include College Awards, was Jordan that much greater than Jordan at age 30? It was said that Jordan was "faaar" ahead of Kobe at age 30...but you need to include College Awards? Including college awards doesn't sound "faaar" ahead to me. Sounds like another Obstructed View weak attempt to me :)

Why don't you throw out the college awards then? Jordan still has a sizeable lead on Kobe.

Besides, at this point in his career, what would make you think that Kobe would have such drastic improvement that he would close the gap and make him possibly greater than Jordan inthe future?


No, I'm saying you can't throw out Kobe's 3 rings just because he also had a great player with him. Kobe couldn't do it alone, Jordan couldn't either.

By the same logic, you can't throw out Pippen's 6 rings. Jordan couldn't do it alone, Pippen couldn't either. By your definition, those 6 rings of Pippen's is of equal value in accomplishments as Jordan's 6 rings.


According to me? When did I ever say playing with another great player made you better than x player? I said you cannot just throw out 1 player's accomplishments because he had a great player with him.

You're trying to take away Kobe's 3 rings because he played with Shaq, but Jordan get's a free pass on Pippen.

So you ARE saying that Otis Thorpe has better accomplishments than Malone, because both had top 50 players as their teammates, and yet one of them won a ring (despite being the clear #2 guy), and the other didn't (despite being arguably the #1 guy).

[dbreiden83080]

You're trying to take away Kobe's 3 rings because he played with Shaq, but Jordan get's a free pass on Pippen.

Jordan does not get a free pass but you have to put that comparison in the proper perspective. Shaq is by really all accounts one of the 5 best centers of all time. Most even put him in the top 10 of all time of all players in history or very close to it. Scottie Pippen was at best, great at one thing and one thing only, defense. Was he a dominant scorer? No. A dominant rebounder? No. Did he command massive double teams getting his mates all day long to shoot the ball? Not the Scottie Pippen i saw play. Shaq put up finals numbers that were off the charts. Playoff games putting up 30 pts and 20 reb, there is no comparison. Pippen was a damn good player, no doubt but Shaq is an all time legendary player and was the driving force that won those 3 titles. Kobe gets credit for his role, the Lakers don't win those 3 titles without him but his career will forever be seen in 2 parts because he was the 2nd best player on those teams. Yeah it takes 2 to get it done, but he was number 2, MJ was always number 1 on his teams. So far his post Shaq career in terms of defining his legacy has not gone well at all. He needs to start winning titles and right now.

[Allanon]

Why don't you throw out the college awards then? Jordan still has a sizeable lead on Kobe.

Without the College Awards, there is no sizeable lead on Kobe. Kobe still had 3 rings to Jordan's 2.



Besides, at this point in his career, what would make you think that Kobe would have such drastic improvement that he would close the gap and make him possibly greater than Jordan inthe future?[

Kobe would not need drastic improvement, what he needs to do is start winning. Exactly the same as Jordan did at this age. I don't say he will, but he can possibly do it. I don't this it's logical for you to say it is impossible for him to do it.



By the same logic, you can't throw out Pippen's 6 rings. Jordan couldn't do it alone, Pippen couldn't either. By your definition, those 6 rings of Pippen's is of equal value in accomplishments as Jordan's 6 rings.

Yes, Pippen's rings are just as much of an accomplishment as Jordan's were.



So you ARE saying that Otis Thorpe has better accomplishments than Malone, because both had top 50 players as their teammates, and yet one of them won a ring (despite being the clear #2 guy), and the other didn't (despite being arguably the #1 guy).

When did I ever say this?

[Allanon]

Jordan does not get a free pass but you have to put that comparison in the proper perspective. Shaq is by really all accounts one of the 5 best centers of all time. Most even put him in the top 10 of all time of all players in history or very close to it. Scottie Pippen was at best, great at one thing and one thing only, defense. Was he a dominant scorer? No. A dominant rebounder? No. Did he command massive double teams getting his mates all day long to shoot the ball? Not the Scottie Pippen i saw play. Shaq put up finals numbers that were off the charts. Playoff games putting up 30 pts and 20 reb, there is no comparison. Pippen was a damn good player, no doubt but Shaq is an all time legendary player and was the driving force that won those 3 titles. Kobe gets credit for his role, the Lakers don't win those 3 titles without him but his career will forever be seen in 2 parts because he was the 2nd best player on those teams. Yeah it takes 2 to get it done, but he was number 2, MJ was always number 1 on his teams.

Although he had a 2nd man role, it's no less of an accomplishment than the #1 guy. Just like Pippen's rings are no less important than Jordan's.



So far his post Shaq career in terms of defining his legacy has not gone well at all. He needs to start winning titles and right now.

Finally, something we can agree upon. Yes, this is what I've said all along. Don't close the book on Kobe yet. This is very bad year to contemplate this discussion, this year was the crossroads into GOATdom for Jordan and Kobe is just enterting it, it could go either way.

It won't be easy and he may never do it. But if it's ever to be done, he needs to start winning and he needs to win right now.

[dirk4mvp]

Although he had a 2nd man role, it's no less of an accomplishment than the #1 guy. Just like Pippen's rings are no less important than Jordan's.





Then why did Jordan win all 6 Finals MVPs?

[dbreiden83080]

Although he had a 2nd man role, it's no less of an accomplishment than the #1 guy. Just like Pippen's rings are no less important than Jordan's.

They are vastly less important when defining a legacy this is what you aren't getting. D-Rob is not going down with Duncan's legacy, why because he needed Duncan to finally win the title and he played a secondary role. It's a great accomplishment that he won but he is not the primary reason they did win. You can't compare the careers of Pippen and Shaq, as i laid out in the last post. This is the part of the argument where you have the least wiggle room. I agree Kobe can win rings and he will go down with a top 10 legacy if that happens but he is not going to get the same credit for those titles with Shaq as Jordan does with Pippen, it simply isn't the same. Shaq's a legendary player Scottie isn't.

[dbreiden83080]

Although he had a 2nd man role, it's no less of an accomplishment than the #1 guy. Just like Pippen's rings are no less important than Jordan's.


This is like saying, Tony Parker's ring's mean just as much as Tim Duncan's, no they don't, not even close.

[Allanon]

This is like saying, Tony Parker's ring's mean just as much as Tim Duncan's, no they don't, not even close.

I think this sums up the point from above so I'll answer this one.

If Tony were to end up with 6 rings and Duncan only had 4, would you say his first 3 rings don't count. If Tony has only 3, then yes, but in the context of 6 rings.

This is the same as Kobe. He has 3 rings now "tainted" by Shaq. If Kobe gets 6 rings, nobody's going to hold Shaq over his head in his list of accomplishments.

[z0sa]

No, I'm saying you can't throw out Kobe's 3 rings just because he also had a great player with him. Kobe couldn't do it alone, Jordan couldn't either.

Jordan = 6 finals mvps total, 6 rings, 6 finals appearances

Kobe = 0 finals mvps now, 3 rings, 5 finals appearances

You have no point, unless its to be foolish. Maybe you're simply a homer and won't admit it?

[Allanon]

Jordan = 6 finals mvps total, 6 rings, 6 finals appearances

Kobe = 0 finals mvps now, 3 rings, 5 finals appearances

You have no point, unless its to be foolish. Maybe you're simply a homer and won't admit it?

Don't try to be stupid. Kobe has 6-8 years left to get Rings and Finals MVPs unless you think Kobe's career is over?

[dbreiden83080]

I think this sums up the point from above so I'll answer this one.

My prior post was even better :toast



If Tony were to end up with 6 rings and Duncan only had 4, would you say his first 3 rings don't count. If Tony has only 3, then yes, but in the context of 6 rings.

Like i said it all comes down to the circumstances of how those rings were won. All the rings count, but there are various levels when defining great players legacies. Questions that would need to be asked are, who did Tony play with after Timmy was retired, was he the man on those teams, finals mvp's, playoff performnaces, etc. How much did he contribute, how much help did he need??



This is the same as Kobe. He has 3 rings now "tainted" by Shaq. If Kobe gets 6 rings, nobody's going to hold Shaq over his head in his list of accomplishments.

Completely incorrect. You need to step outside how much of a Laker fan you are. You want to just tally up rings and say "if Kobe hits 6 the Jordan comparisons will begin". It's not that simple, when the first half of his career he played with one of the 5 best centers ever who was the driving force behind the titles. Re-read my Duncan and D-Rob comparison. Does he have rings yes? Is he slapped down a peg for needing Duncan to get over the hump? You better believe it. Again Kobe's career will be a career in 2 parts, with Shaq and post Shaq. Jordan doesn't have that problem. He played second fiddle to nobody his whole career.

[Allanon]

Completely incorrect. You need to step outside how much of a Laker fan you are. You want to just tally up rings and say "if Kobe hits 6 the Jordan comparisons will begin". It's not that simple, when the first half of his career he played with one of the 5 best centers ever who was the driving force behind the titles.

Completely incorrect is your opinion saying my opinion is wrong. Sorry if I don't think your opinion is more correct than mines.

"if Kobe hits 6 the Jordan comparisons will begin", yes they will begin, but I would not agree with it. They are ALREADY beginning and Kobe only has 3.



Re-read my Duncan and D-Rob comparison. Does he have rings yes? Is he slapped down a peg for needing Duncan to get over the hump? You better believe it.

I don't understand your Duncan and D-Rob comparison. Duncan has 4 rings and DRob has 1. If Duncan had 1 and DRob had 1, I can see your point but Duncan is obviously superior by a wide margin.



Again Kobe's career will be a career in 2 parts, with Shaq and post Shaq. Jordan doesn't have that problem. He played second fiddle to nobody his whole career.

That is why I say Kobe would need 7-8 rings to make a serious case. I've said it a million times, Kobe with 6 rings would not be enough. But what if he had 7 and the Finals MVPs, MVPs that came with it?

[lebomb]

This simple question will put an end to all this Jordan Vs Kobe bullshit......


Who would you rather have leading your team in their prime.................Me?

JORDAN

[Allanon]

This simple question will put an end to all this Jordan Vs Kobe bullshit......


Who would you rather have leading your team in their prime.................Me?

JORDAN

You don't know when Kobe's prime is, his career's not over.

[lebomb]

You don't know when Kobe's prime is, his career's not over.


I think he is in his prime now. He isnt going to be hittin 81pts in a game a year or two from now period.

[Allanon]

I think he is in his prime now.

You may think but you do not know.

As for 81, if Kobe wanted to and Phil let him, Kobe could still put up 81. There's just no need for it with as much help as he has. Kobe doesn't need to put up 40 a night anymore for the Lakers to win.

Kobe's game is still improving, last year his FG% went up. Who knows what he'll do these next couple of years.

Jordan was still in his prime at age 35.

[dbreiden83080]

Completely incorrect is your opinion saying my opinion is wrong. Sorry if I don't think your opinion is more correct than mines.

Read more carefully, take off the Laker cap and you'll begin to understand.



"if Kobe hits 6 the Jordan comparisons will begin", yes they will begin, but I would not agree with it. They are ALREADY beginning and Kobe only has 3.

Who is saying this exactly? Except you, i don't hear anyone saying Kobe is within 100 miles of Jordan. If he was 90 miles behind the beating Pierce gave him knocked him back another 10.




I don't understand your Duncan and D-Rob comparison. Duncan has 4 rings and DRob has 1. If Duncan had 1 and DRob had 1, I can see your point but Duncan is obviously superior by a wide margin.



First of all D-Rob has 2 rings, 1999 and 2003 second of all i laid it all out for you. You have to look at the specific circumstances behind how these titles were won, when factoring in great players legacies. It's nice and easy if we all can just count up rings. Hell Horry would be in the Hall of Fame.

[dbreiden83080]

Jordan was still in his prime at age 35.

No he wasn't. Jordan was so great in his prime by age 35 he was still the best player in the game but he was not nearly as explosive to the hoop and could not bring it for 40 min consistantly anymore. He gave it more in spurts, he had less energy.

[Allanon]

Read more carefully, take off the Laker cap and you'll begin to understand.

More Spur fan bias.




Who is saying this exactly? Except you, i don't hear anyone saying Kobe is within 100 miles of Jordan. If he was 90 miles behind the beating Pierce gave him knocked him back another 10.

Look at the article, is was not written by me. Jemele Hill made a very publicized article about Jordan vs Kobe. Opening your eyes up beyond the Alamodome will set you free.



First of all D-Rob has 2 rings, 1999 and 2003 second of all i laid it all out for you. You have to look at the specific circumstances behind how these titles were won, when factoring in great players legacies. It's nice and easy if we all can just count up rings. Hell Horry would be in the Hall of Fame.

DRob has 2 rings, Duncan has 4. Still no comparison.

Horry has rings but no MVPs, he cannot make a case with guys like Duncan and DRob. But I do think he will make the HOF.

[lebomb]

All I know is if Jordan lead that Laker team last year in the championship......at the same age as Kobe, the Lakers would have disposed of the Celtics in 6 games. That is how sure I am that Jordan is better than Kobe.

[Allanon]

No he wasn't. Jordan was so great in his prime by age 35 he was still the best player in the game but he was not nearly as explosive to the hoop and could not bring it for 40 min consistantly anymore. He gave it more in spurts, he had less energy.

Jordan scored 30 points at age 35 and won a championship. He also played very close to 40 minutes a game.

And you say he wasn't in his prime? Maybe Jordan's so great, in his prime he could have won two championships in the same year instead of just 1 :)

[dbreiden83080]

Look at the article, is was not written by me. Jemele Hill made a very publicized article about Jordan vs Kobe.

Isn't she that dumb chick that got slapped by ESPN for making racist comments? You ever see her on First Take? She has the sports IQ of Tony Kornheiser.




DRob has 2 rings, Duncan has 4. Still no comparison.

If Duncan had 2 and D-Rob had 2, there would be comparison.




But I do think he will make the HOF.

Zero chance Horry makes the HOF. He has a career scoring avg of 7 PPG.

[Allanon]

All I know is if Jordan lead that Laker team last year in the championship......at the same age as Kobe, the Lakers would have disposed of the Celtics in 6 games. That is how sure I am that Jordan is better than Kobe.

I wouldn't be too sure of that.

Jordan lost to the Pistons 3 years in a row with a very good team.

[lebomb]

Jordan scored 30 points at age 35 and won a championship. He also played very close to 40 minutes a game.




He was wiser at this point, but not physically in his prime. Dayum, dont you know what a seasoned veteran means? :lmao You take the fade away now instead of the athletic dunks and flying through the lane shots.

:rolleyes

[Allanon]

Isn't she that dumb chick that got slapped by ESPN for making racist comments? You ever see her on First Take? She has the sports IQ of Tony Kornheiser.

I didn't say it was right or wrong. You said I was the only person mentioning it and you are wrong.



If Duncan had 2 and D-Rob had 2, there would be comparison.

Yes



Zero chance Horry makes the HOF. He has a career scoring avg of 7 PPG.

This I can agree on, I'd LIKE to see him make the HOF.

[Allanon]

He was wiser at this point, but not physically in his prime. Dayum, dont you know what a veteran means? You take the fade away now instead of the athletic dunks and flying through the lane shots.

:rolleyes

So you are saying athletic ability makes "prime" and getting smarter doesn't? What Jordan lacked in physical ability, he made up in skill and smarts. He became a better jumpshooter as he got older, he picked his spots better. Shoot, we should line up all the dumb ahletic players for you. :sleep

[dbreiden83080]

Jordan scored 30 points at age 35 and won a championship. He also played very close to 40 minutes a game.

And you say he wasn't in his prime? Maybe Jordan's so great, in his prime he could have won two championships in the same year instead of just 1 :)

He wasn't in his prime anymore. He played almost 40 min more in spurts, Jordan used to drive to the hoop with reckless abandon, he became more of a jump-shooter in the last few years with the Bulls. Couldn't get in the lane and explode like before or take the pounding anymore. Like i said though he was still the best player in the game. A drop off for him is not like other greats.

[lebomb]

So you are saying athletic ability makes "prime" and getting smarter doesn't? What Jordan lacked in physical ability, he made up in skill and smarts. He became a better jumpshooter as he got older. Shoot, we should line up all the dumb ahletic players for you. :sleep

35 isnt really anyones prime in pro basketball dude........you should know that. :rolleyes

[Allanon]

I'm going to lunch for an hour, I'll be back to talk to you Spur fans then.

[Allanon]

35 isnt really anyones prime in pro basketball dude........you should know that. :rolleyes

Jordan wasn't just "anyone", dude. :rolleyes

[dbreiden83080]

Yes

NO!!! Duncan Finals MVP 1999 and 2003, league MVP 2003,

D-ROB 1999 and 2003 ???????

It's really hilarious how you just want to count rings. D-Rob's best years are when his legacy was most defined. Not when Duncan became the go to guy in SA.

Let me give this to you another way. It's like working on a team project at your job. You didn't do nearly as much work, aren't the one most responsible for the success of the project, yet come bonus time you want as much as the guy who was doing the heavy lifting. If your boss was paying attention and has an ounce of common sense, that's not happening.

[lebomb]

Jordan wasn't just "anyone", dude. :rolleyes


You just dont get it. I thought you understood basketball. :depressed

[lebomb]

Jordans NBA records:

Holds NBA Finals records for:

* Finals MVP honors (6)

* named MVP in each Finals appearance

* scoring average, single-series (41.0 ppg)

* set in the 1993 NBA Finals vs. the Phoenix Suns

* consecutive games, 20 or more points (35, June 2, 1991-June 14, 1998)
* only player to score 20 or more points in all games, career (min. 15 games)

* Jordan scored at least 20 in all 35 of his Finals performances

* consecutive games, 40 or more points (4, June 11-18, 1993)
* points, one half (35)

* set in 1st half vs. the Portland Trail Blazers, June 3, 1992

* field goals made, one half (14)

* did so twice; vs. Portland, June 3, 1992 and vs. Phoenix, June 16, 1993
* shared with Isiah Thomas

* consecutive field goals made (13)

* set vs. the Los Angeles Lakers on June 5, 1991

* free throws made, quarter (9)

* shared with Frank Ramsey

* three point field goals made, one half (6)

* set vs. the Portland Trail Blazers, June 3, 1992
* shared with Kenny Smith

* scoring 30 or more points in all games of series

* set in the 1993 NBA Finals vs. the Phoenix Suns
* shared with Elgin Baylor, Rick Barry, Hakeem Olajuwon and Shaquille O'Neal

* points, 6-game series (246)

* set in the 1993 NBA Finals vs. the Phoenix Suns

* field goals made, 6-game series (101)

* set in the 1993 NBA Finals vs. the Phoenix Suns

* steals, 5-game series (14)

* set in the 1991 NBA Finals vs. the Los Angeles Lakers

* highest assists average not by a point guard, single-series (11.4 apg)

* set in the 1991 NBA Finals vs. the Los Angeles Lakers




Playoffs

Holds NBA Playoff Records for:

* points per game average, career (33.45)
* points, career (5,987)
* points, single postseason (759, 1992)

* also ranks 5th (680, 1998) and 6th (666, 1993)

* 50 point games (8)
* 40 point games (38)
* 30 point games (109)
* 20 point games (174)
* consecutive games, 10 or more points (179)

* scored 10 points or more in every career playoff game

* consecutive games, 20 or more points (60)

* June 2, 1989 - May 11, 1993

* points in a game (63)

* set vs. the Boston Celtics, April 20, 1986
* averaged 43.7 ppg, 5.7 apg, and 6.3 rpg for the three games series against the Boston Celtics

* points in a 3-game series (135)

* set in the 1992 First Round vs. the Miami Heat

* points in a 5-game series (226)

* set in the 1988 First Round vs. the Cleveland Cavaliers

* field goals attempted, career (4,497)
* field goals made per game, career (12.2)
* field goals made in a game (24)

* set vs. Cleveland Cavaliers on May 1, 1988
* shared with Wilt Chamberlain and John Havlicek

* field goals attempted, half (25)

* set vs. Cleveland Cavaliers on May 1st, 1988
* shared with Wilt Chamberlain and Elgin Baylor

* field goals made in a 3-game series (53)

* set in the 1992 First Round vs. the Miami Heat

* field goals made in a 5-game series (86)

* set in the 1988 First Round vs. the Cleveland Cavaliers

* field goals made in a 6-game series (101)

* set in 1993 NBA Finals vs. the Phoenix Suns

* consecutive field goals made (13)

* set vs. the Los Angeles Lakers on June 5, 1991

* free throws made, career (1,463)
* free throws made, quarter (13)
* blocks by a guard, career (158)
* free throws made per game, rookie (12.0)
* free throws attempted per game, rookie (14.5)

Holds NBA All-Star Game records for:

* points, career (262)
* field goals made, career (110)
* field goals made, game (17)

* shared with Wilt Chamberlain and Kevin Garnett

* field goals attempted, career (233)
* field goals attempted, game (27)

* shared with Rick Barry

* steals, career (37)
* blocked shots, half (4)

Regular season

Holds NBA regular season records for:

* All-Defensive First Team honors (9)

* shared with Gary Payton

* Player Efficiency Rating, career (27.91)
* points per game average, career (30.12)
* consecutive games scoring in double-digits (866)
* seasons leading the league in points per game average (10)
* consecutive seasons leading the league in points per game average (7, 1986-87 through 1992-93)

* shared with Wilt Chamberlain
* Appears on the All-time top 100 list of most points per game in a season a record 9 times.

* seasons leading the league in total points (11)

* Appears on the All-time top 100 list of most points in a season a record 11 times.

* seasons leading the league in field goals made (10)
* consecutive seasons leading the league in field goals made (7)

* shared with Wilt Chamberlain

* seasons leading the league in field goals attempted (9)
* seasons leading the league in steals per game (3)
* highest Game Score on record

* 64.6 at the Cleveland Cavaliers on March 28, 1990

* free throws made, one half

* 20, against the Miami Heat on December 30, 1992

* free throws attempted, one half

* 23, against the Miami Heat on December 30, 1992

* free throws made, one quarter (shared)

* 14, against the Utah Jazz on November 15, 1989, and against the Miami Heat on December 30, 1992

* free throws attempted, one quarter (shared)

* 16, against the Miami Heat on December 30, 1992

* steals, one half (8)

* shared with 11 players

* oldest player to score 50 points in one game (51 points, 7 rebounds, aged 38 years, 315 days)

* against the New Orleans Hornets, December 29, 2001

* oldest player and only player at age 40 or older to score 40 points in one game (43 points, 10 rebounds)

* against the New Jersey Nets, February 21, 2003
* scored 40 or more points 3 times, in his final year
* scored 30 or more points 9 times, in his final year
* scored 20 or more points 42 times, in his final year

* blocked shots by a guard, season (131, 1987-88)
* blocked shots by a guard, career (893)






Kobes NBA records; (No finals or playoff records.......so we will just go with what we have)

NBA records

Kobe Bryant shares two NBA records:

* Most three-point field goals made, one game: 12 (January 7, 2003 vs. Seattle SuperSonics; shared with Donyell Marshall)[22]
* Most three-point field goals made, one half: 8 (March 28, 2003 vs. Washington Wizards; shared with 5 other players).[22][23]

* Youngest player to score 15,000 points: (27 years, 136 days)
* Youngest player to score 20,000 points: (29 years, 122 days)[24]

* surpassing Wilt Chamberlain, the previous holder of the record.[24]
* Bryant also became one of the only three players to reach the milestone under the age of 30. The other two are Chamberlain (29 years, 134 days)[24] and Michael Jordan (29 years, 326 days).[25]

* Youngest Slam Dunk champion: (18 years, 175 days), after winning the contest at the 1997 NBA All-Star Weekend.
* Youngest player to be named to the NBA All-Defensive Team: (1999–00)[26]
* Youngest player to start a game: (18 years, 158 days)[27]







Yeah, Kobe will catch up. :(

[dbreiden83080]

^^

Does Kobe also have the record for most team-mates that think he is a piece of shit, and most times bitch slapped by Paul Pierce??

[Allanon]

NO!!! Duncan Finals MVP 1999 and 2003, league MVP 2003,

D-ROB 1999 and 2003 ???????

It's really hilarious how you just want to count rings. D-Rob's best years are when his legacy was most defined. Not when Duncan became the go to guy in SA.

Let me give this to you another way. It's like working on a team project at your job. You didn't do nearly as much work, aren't the one most responsible for the success of the project, yet come bonus time you want as much as the guy who was doing the heavy lifting. If your boss was paying attention and has an ounce of common sense, that's not happening.

It's hilarious that you keep adding stuff in after the fact.

You said, if Duncan had 2 rings and David Robinson had 2 rings. You didn't say anthing about MVPs, etc. Duncan's career would not have been been so great compared to DRob's if both had ended up with 2 rings. So you are wrong.

Read it for your self :)



If Duncan had 2 and D-Rob had 2, there would be comparison.

[Allanon]

You just dont get it. I thought you understood basketball. :depressed

You make Jordan out to be able to walk on water but then you expect him to be just "anyone".

Huh? :rolleyes