Jeff McDonald:Spurs fall, waive Stoudamire

[Blackjack]

Spurs fall, waive Stoudamire .
Jeff McDonald - SAEN

Locker-by-locker, man-by-man, Salim Stoudamire limped around the Spurs’ locker room, giving hugs and handshakes to the players who had been his teammates for three weeks.

He had come to San Antonio in hopes of making the Spurs, in hopes of reviving an NBA career that had hit the skids in Atlanta.

This was farewell.

Stoudamire was waived Wednesday night, after giving it a semi-heroic go on a strained left groin in the Spurs’ 100-95 preseason loss to Washington at the AT&T Center.

“It was just my fate,” said Stoudamire, a 26-year-old point guard. “Obviously, it wasn’t meant for me to be a San Antonio Spur.”

Throughout the preseason, Stoudamire’s mind was willing. His body was not. His bid to make the Spurs was star-crossed from literally the first day.

He strained his right groin during the Spurs’ opening training camp session on Sept. 30, played in one preseason game, then injured his other side of his groin during practice on Tuesday.

With little left to lose Wednesday, Stoudamire hobbled through a desperate but noble attempt to show the Spurs something.

He played 18 minutes against the Wizards, never looking quite right, and scored three points.

“I was telling Kurt Thomas on the bench, ‘Sometimes you take for granted just being mobile,’” Stoudamire said.

Before the game, and before the cut, coach Gregg Popovich said he sympathized with the impossibility of Stoudamire’s situation.

“He’s not 100 percent, and he wants to make a basketball team, and he would like to be as healthy as possible to give it his best go,” Popovich said. “The situation is what it is, and he’s got to deal with it, and so do we. He makes it tough for us, decision-wise, for obvious reasons.”

Stoudamire’s dismissal leaves the Spurs with three more cuts to make before Monday’s deadline.

At least Wednesday offered Popovich one no-brainer: Tim Duncan appears to have solidified a spot for the 12th consecutive year. He scored a preseason-high 20 points in 22 minutes.

The Spurs head into the final days of the preseason with two roster spots up for grabs.

Anthony Tolliver, a 6-foot-9 shooter out of Creighton, has built a nice case for one of them.

He scored nine points against the Wizards, but it was a fourth-quarter hustle play that drew a standing ovation from Popovich.

Tolliver missed a two-footer from a tough angle, missed the ensuing tap-in attempt, then chased the ball to the other side of the rim to finally score the basket.

“I’m happy with my effort,” Tolliver said. “I know that’s something I control every night.”

The race for the Spurs’ final spot is shaping up to be a two-man competition between Malik Hairston, the rookie from Oregon, and Desmon Farmer, a second-year player.

Both guards had their moments Wednesday.

Farmer scored 12 points, all of them on 3-pointers, all of them in the second half. Hairston, meanwhile, was simply solid, scoring six points to go with six rebounds and three assists.

The pair did nothing to make the Spurs’ staff dread the looming cut day any less.

“The nice thing is, they’re all NBA players,” Spurs assistant Mike Budenholzer said. “This is a great problem to have.”

The preseason ended for one would-be Spur on Wednesday. Stoudamire made no secret that he viewed this tryout with the Spurs as perhaps his last chance at an NBA career.

Now that chance is gone, in the strain of not one muscle, but two.

“It’s a tough pill to swallow,” Stoudamire said. “I’ll try to get healthy. I’ll call my agent, and we’ll discuss things and go from there.”

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/spurs/Stoudamire_struggles_in_loss.html

[angelbelow]

well thats that, i guess i have to waive him from my 2k9 team too.

[timvp]

Wow. Interesting turn of events with Stoudamire getting waived directly after a game.

$200K down the drain but it opens the door for Farmer or Hairston.







P.S.

What has happened to Devin Green? Just keeping him around for good luck or what?

[exstatic]

“I’m happy with my effort,” Tolliver said. “I know that’s something I control every night.”

This is why he's going to make the club. He gets it. He's also the closest thing to an Horry replacement we have in the pipeline: He has the long ball, the rebounding , and the defense, a hard package to put together, but necessary to keep the other big from dropping into Tim's lap when playing something other than small ball for stretches.

[exstatic]

Wow. Interesting turn of events with Stoudamire getting waived directly after a game.

$200K down the drain but it opens the door for Farmer or Hairston.

I think it would have been tough to make the club even if he were healthy. I just couldn't see Pop keeping 4 small guards. If Hill pans out, and with Vaughn in the last year of his deal, there might be a chance for Salim next year if he signs somewhere on a one year deal.

[HarlemHeat37]

I have nothing against Stoudamire, but I'm happy he didn't make the team..good luck to him in his future though, I wish him well..

the last 2 is difficult..I agree with the coaches though, it's a good problem to have..I'll be happy with either, and I honestly can't pick which one I'd rather have..probably leaning towards Malik..

[Blackjack]

What has happened to Devin Green? Just keeping him around for good luck or what?

I was wondering the same thing. I don't see him making the team over Hairston or Farmer, but it makes me think twice since they haven't waived him. Isn't this the second game he hasn't seen any action? Maybe they're just keeping him around for competition purposes???

[timvp]

I think it would have been tough to make the club even if he were healthy. I just couldn't see Pop keeping 4 small guards. If Hill pans out, and with Vaughn in the last year of his deal, there might be a chance for Salim next year if he signs somewhere on a one year deal.Looking back on it, the death knell for Stoudamire might have been Hill playing better than expected. Stoudamire, like Pargo, were likely targeted after Hill played poorly in summer league. If the Spurs now believe Hill is the real deal, Stoudamire's value would be extremely limited.

It also didn't help that Vaughn still appears to be at the level of a sufficient third string point guard.

[Tully365]

I wasn't a big fan of the Stoudamire signing, but I feel bad for him not getting a real chance to prove himself because of an untimely injury. He'll latch on somewhere though.

I can't decide between Farmer and Hairston myself, so whichever one Pop choses will be fine with me. The scouting dept & FO of the Spurs should be commended-- there is a damned good collection of guys in camp.

Tolliver's numbers tonight: 9 points & 5 rebounds in just over 14 minutes. Very nice.

[Manufan909]

Damn, Farmer would be great now, but Hairston has a higher ceiling. I bet Pop will do what some have suggested and cut Hairston and hope no one else picks him up. I'd rather have Farmer be cut, but Mason/Finley won't cut it, and I think Farmer would be instant offense.

And I was slightly sad to hear he got waived, and I didn't want him to make it.

[T Park]

“I’m happy with my effort,” Tolliver said. “I know that’s something I control every night.”

This is why he's going to make the club. He gets it. He's also the closest thing to an Horry replacement we have in the pipeline: He has the long ball, the rebounding , and the defense, a hard package to put together, but necessary to keep the other big from dropping into Tim's lap when playing something other than small ball for stretches.


Yup exactly right.

He gets Spurs basketball and understands. Thats a huge hurdle to get over.

[Obstructed_View]

“I was telling Kurt Thomas on the bench, ‘Sometimes you take for granted just being mobile,’” Stoudamire said.
To which Kurt replied, "I don't."

[DMX7]

I have nothing against Stoudamire, but I'm happy he didn't make the team..good luck to him in his future though, I wish him well..

the last 2 is difficult..I agree with the coaches though, it's a good problem to have..I'll be happy with either, and I honestly can't pick which one I'd rather have..probably leaning towards Malik..

Same here, he seems like a good guy but I not sure he fit the team personal wise.

[BWS-1994]

Who between Farmer and Hairston will fit in the Spurs D?

Is there still room for Hairston in the Toros in case he gets cut?

[AusSpursFan]

Who between Farmer and Hairston will fit in the Spurs D?

Is there still room for Hairston in the Toros in case he gets cut?

Am I the only one that thinks this is a no brainer? Farmer! Farmer! Farmer! The guy is playing great, we want someone to contribute now, and he's the man. Hairston is a development prospect, perfect for the Toros.

[Manufan909]

Am I the only one that thinks this is a no brainer? Farmer! Farmer! Farmer! The guy is playing great, we want someone to contribute now, and he's the man. Hairston is a development prospect, perfect for the Toros.

But he could get snatched up by another team...

If the Celtics could win it all with a team who mostly had never played before, I wish the Spurs had tried to totally rebuild. I know Pop didn't know then, but not resigning Fin would've made room for Farmer and Hairston. The only new people def getting minutes right now are Mason, Hill, and for Ian, maybe a month into the reg season. I think rebuilding around the big four plus Fab and Udoka would have been cool. As long as Hill beats out Vaughn, Mason beats out Fin, Tolliver makes Bonner the 15th man(even after Manu!:p:), Ian makes Fab the 5th big, all by the new year, I'm gravy.

[#2!]

Am I the only one that thinks this is a no brainer? Farmer! Farmer! Farmer! The guy is playing great, we want someone to contribute now, and he's the man. Hairston is a development prospect, perfect for the Toros.

Nope, pretty much everyone thinks that Farmer is what the team needs the most right now with Manu out. And Hariston is likely to end up on the Toros if the the spurs sign him, but the risk is if the Spurs don't sign him and he goes to Austin then any NBA team can get him. So its simply a call of what's more important for the team right now, short term or long term.

Too bad about Salim, but if healthy I think he can get himself signed to a team anyways. Good luck!

[timtonymanu]

whoa. I didnt think Stoudamire would be waived this early (or at all). So it seems Tolliver's a lock. Between Hairston and Farmer, i dont care who goes in cause both are good.

are greens and watkins gone too?

[Spork KIller]

Stoudamire will get picked up by another team and likely have a a nice career year

[SpursFanFirst]

At least Wednesday offered Popovich one no-brainer: Tim Duncan appears to have solidified a spot for the 12th consecutive year.

Whew! That's a relief! :lol

[Ice009]

So have Green and Watkins been waived yet?

Maybe Pop is trying to work a deal to offload someone.

[Ice009]

Looking back on it, the death knell for Stoudamire might have been Hill playing better than expected. Stoudamire, like Pargo, were likely targeted after Hill played poorly in summer league. If the Spurs now believe Hill is the real deal, Stoudamire's value would be extremely limited.

It also didn't help that Vaughn still appears to be at the level of a sufficient third string point guard.

Very good point. Pop was chasing all these guys after Hill shot poorly in the summer league. Hill's been pretty darn good in the preseason games and I think I read he's done great in training camp too.

I wanted Stoudamire only if Vaughn was cut. Looks like my boy Farmer is in running for real now.

Hairston I really like too. I'd love to get both. If the Spurs pick Farmer they have to find a way to keep Malik too.

[Drom John]

15 spots, 3 don't suit up, 1 of the 3 is Ginobli.
Last spot is Hairston/Farmer, most likely designated for Austin.
Hairston has the upside, and with D, maybe the better "now" player.
Looks like 95% Tolliver, 75% Hairston, 30% Farmer.

[Drom John]

BTW, does Bonner's contract permit him to light up the D-League?

[Ice009]

15 spots, 3 don't suit up, 1 of the 3 is Ginobli.
Last spot is Hairston/Farmer, most likely designated for Austin.
Hairston has the upside, and with D, maybe the better "now" player.
Looks like 95% Tolliver, 75% Hairston, 30% Farmer.

umm I disagree with most of what you said. Hairston is not the more ready "now" player and there is no point in sending Farmer to the D-League because he dominated it (scoring wise that is). He's not really going to learn much more there. He just needs to work on his defense with the Spurs, not in the D-League.

[Russ]

The Spurs need offense off the bench like "microwave" Farmer.

[SenorSpur]

But he could get snatched up by another team...


Which is exactly why the Spurs shouldn't take the risk in making Hairston available. Farmer has made a case for himself, no doubt. But if it's this close, I'd go fo the all-around player with the higher ceiling. Besides, the Spurs are in no position to throw away promising draft picks. It's not as though they have a plethora of swingmen in their pipeline.

[Ice009]

Which is exactly why the Spurs shouldn't take the risk in making Hairston available. Farmer has made a case for himself, no doubt. But if it's this close, I'd go fo the all-around player with the higher ceiling. Besides, the Spurs are in no position to throw away promising draft picks. It's not as though they have a plethora of swingmen in their pipeline.

I hear what you are saying, but I STILL want Farmer. I want Malik on the team too, but not ahead of Farmer. Dump Vaughn or Bonner please.

[Bartleby]

Like a lot of posters here, I'd like to see the Spurs find a way to hold onto both Farmer and Hairston, but if it comes down to one or the other I'd rather see them keep Hairston.

I like Farmer's ability to score, but I think Hairston has a more balanced game (particularly when you look at blocks and rebounds). And, as has been pointed out, Hairston seems to have a much higher ceiling.

[Darkwaters]

BTW, does Bonner's contract permit him to light up the D-League?

No. You can only play in the D-League your first two years in the league. Hes got quite a few more than that.

[MoSpur]

As I stated in the other thread, Salim played himself out of any chances of making the team last night. He looked horrible. His shot was way off and he had no handles whatsoever. Poor guy. You can tell he was trying his hardest to do good, but his body and shot weren't cooperating.

[Darkwaters]

Hairston or Farmer? Why not both? I suppose it's possible, but is it likely? Lets assume that Tolliver is a lock, leaving only one spot free now. You could conceivably move Bonner, but who would take him? And with two overpriced years left on his contract it's unlikely we could send him out without taking somebody equally unneccesary back. The best solution is waiving Jacque Vaughn if you want to keep the Hairston/Farmer duo.

There are several reasons this could happen:
a) The lightbulb for George Hill is obviously starting to come on. His play makes Vaughn's usefulness limited.
b) The injury to Ginobili, the age (and limited production) of Finley last year and the general need for athletic wings make Hairston and Farmer intriguing.
c) Roger Mason's ability to play both guard spots allows the Spurs to maintain a 3 PG lineup. And the Spurs have obviously been considering this by giving him the opportunity to play some PG in preseason.
d) The Spurs are often slow to admit a mistake with a draft pick (see Marcus Williams) indicating a preference towards Hairston. But Farmer's production is hard to ignore and seems to be just what we need right now.

However, there are reasons that this seems unlikely as well:
a) Pop likes his vets and values their experience. Vaughn is entrenched in the system and knows what to do already.
b) Theres a lot to be said about "knowing the system" to be effective in San Antonio. Waiving Vaughn leaves you with only 1 PG (Parker) that has more than 30 minutes in the system. A scary proposition regardless of what you think of Vaughn.
c) Pop has consistently shown a desire to have 3 full-time PG's on his rosters. The old addage of "make Barry the 3rd PG" never took off despite countless suggestions to do so. Mason would be a similar situation and might make no more sense to the coaching staff than Barry did.

All and all, it's unclear whats going to happen. I could really see it going either way. Frankly, I'm hopeful for Hill's continued growth and ability to evict Vaughn from his tenured position. So if Vaughn's days are numbered anyways, why keep him? We've needed a youth movement on the wing for a while and we have two decent prospects knocking on our door.

Waive Vaughn and take your chances with the Parker/Hill/Mason PG set. Bring in Farmer and Hairston. Problem solved.

[Bartleby]

Do the Spurs still have that trade exception or has that expired? If they do, I wonder if they could use it to unload Bonner or Vaughn.

[Darkwaters]

Do the Spurs still have that trade exception or has that expired? If they do, I wonder if they could use it to unload Bonner or Vaughn.

If it hasn't expired yet it will in just a few days. Bruno would know.

[tav1]

Wow. Interesting turn of events with Stoudamire getting waived directly after a game.

$200K down the drain but it opens the door for Farmer or Hairston.







P.S.

What has happened to Devin Green? Just keeping him around for good luck or what?

Yes, I thought the same thing about Green. And Watkins too, I guess.

[tav1]

If it hasn't expired yet it will in just a few days. Bruno would know.

Couple days left. It doesn't matter, though. The Spurs don't have roster spots and Hairston and Farmer are as good as anyone they'd pry away with an exception. It'll expire unused.

[tav1]

Do the Spurs still have that trade exception or has that expired? If they do, I wonder if they could use it to unload Bonner or Vaughn.

Your little Indians are confused. Tell their chief to brush up on what a trade exception is and how it can be used. But the short answer is it can't be combined with a player, and even if it could, it's used to acquire players, not give them away.

[tav1]

umm I disagree with most of what you said. Hairston is not the more ready "now" player and there is no point in sending Farmer to the D-League because he dominated it (scoring wise that is). He's not really going to learn much more there. He just needs to work on his defense with the Spurs, not in the D-League.

+3, good response

[tav1]

Hairston or Farmer? Why not both? I suppose it's possible, but is it likely? Lets assume that Tolliver is a lock, leaving only one spot free now. You could conceivably move Bonner, but who would take him? And with two overpriced years left on his contract it's unlikely we could send him out without taking somebody equally unneccesary back. The best solution is waiving Jacque Vaughn if you want to keep the Hairston/Farmer duo.

There are several reasons this could happen:
a) The lightbulb for George Hill is obviously starting to come on. His play makes Vaughn's usefulness limited.
b) The injury to Ginobili, the age (and limited production) of Finley last year and the general need for athletic wings make Hairston and Farmer intriguing.
c) Roger Mason's ability to play both guard spots allows the Spurs to maintain a 3 PG lineup. And the Spurs have obviously been considering this by giving him the opportunity to play some PG in preseason.
d) The Spurs are often slow to admit a mistake with a draft pick (see Marcus Williams) indicating a preference towards Hairston. But Farmer's production is hard to ignore and seems to be just what we need right now.

However, there are reasons that this seems unlikely as well:
a) Pop likes his vets and values their experience. Vaughn is entrenched in the system and knows what to do already.
b) Theres a lot to be said about "knowing the system" to be effective in San Antonio. Waiving Vaughn leaves you with only 1 PG (Parker) that has more than 30 minutes in the system. A scary proposition regardless of what you think of Vaughn.
c) Pop has consistently shown a desire to have 3 full-time PG's on his rosters. The old addage of "make Barry the 3rd PG" never took off despite countless suggestions to do so. Mason would be a similar situation and might make no more sense to the coaching staff than Barry did.

All and all, it's unclear whats going to happen. I could really see it going either way. Frankly, I'm hopeful for Hill's continued growth and ability to evict Vaughn from his tenured position. So if Vaughn's days are numbered anyways, why keep him? We've needed a youth movement on the wing for a while and we have two decent prospects knocking on our door.

Waive Vaughn and take your chances with the Parker/Hill/Mason PG set. Bring in Farmer and Hairston. Problem solved.

This post nails it.

[SenorSpur]

Hairston or Farmer? Why not both? I suppose it's possible, but is it likely? Lets assume that Tolliver is a lock, leaving only one spot free now. You could conceivably move Bonner, but who would take him? And with two overpriced years left on his contract it's unlikely we could send him out without taking somebody equally unneccesary back. The best solution is waiving Jacque Vaughn if you want to keep the Hairston/Farmer duo.

That would be a dream scenario. Would make too much sense, which is why it's not likely to happen. Pop has grown to like 3 legit PGs and 2 perimeter-shooting bigs on his roster.


Waive Vaughn and take your chances with the Parker/Hill/Mason PG set. Bring in Farmer and Hairston. Problem solved.

What would be the salary implications if they waived Vaughn and he was picked up by another team (i.e. Orlando)? Isn't that money guaranteed regardless?

[Darkwaters]

What would be the salary implications if they waived Vaughn and he was picked up by another team (i.e. Orlando)? Isn't that money guaranteed regardless?

I think so. But I was under the impression that veteran minimum players are not counted against the salary cap anyways.

[Darkwaters]

Essentially what the staff is likely arguing is the idea of win now or win later.

It's important to understand how the staff views each of the players.

Vaughn is definitely a win now player. His value decreases with each year as his age increases. There is no hope of "developing" a player like Vaughn. He is what he is.

Hairston is likely viewed as a win later player. One can assume that he will have an appreciating value to the team and that the dividends from his development likely wouldn't be felt this year.

I'm curious how the staff views Farmer. He obviously has the ability to score right now, but would he be able to overtake even a player like Finley? That still leaves Bowen/Udoka/Mason and eventually Ginobili in front of him even if he does. But hes young, so developing him is likely a draw as well. So maybe hes something of a blended now & later kind of guy?

With that aspect analyzed, what will each of these players bring to the team?

With Vaughn being a win NOW guy, and assuming Hill overtakes him, as well as a deep reserve he really contributes very little. Vaughn stands as a hedge against two things: injury and Hill contracting "Beno-itis" or otherwise hitting the rookie wall. And concerns over Hill are most definitely well-grounded. There are concerns about how he'll adapt (coming from a small college) and that his summer league appearances were often pedestrian. I think Hill will be good, but how good will he be this year? Jacque also was initially brought in to mentor both Parker and Beno. If ever there was a PG that needed mentoring it was a youthful one like Hill. Overall, Vaughn is their ace in the hole in case something goes south with any of the PGs, but especially Hill.

With Hairston being a win LATER guy his production is largely deferred. Hairston symbolizes a look towards the future and an anticipation of continued success.

Farmer being a blend offers an interesting situation. His win NOW aspect helps the team in a crucial area, but is probably little more than an injury hedge. And in the unlikely event that he makes the team and is active he also serves as a drought-buster. His win LATER aspect suggests that he can eventually take up the mantle held by some of the elder statesmen on the team (Finley?). Although, I'd say his ceiling is significantly lower than his competition's.

What are the team's motivations?

Obviously we want to win a championship. Now. Which lends itself to the win NOW players. Vaughn and to some degree Farmer, help this perspective.

But how long do we think the window will be open? Surely for a few more years at least. And our current wings are aging rapidly and probably won't be competitive as long as Mr. Duncan is. Bringing along quality wings enables the team to keep supplying Duncan with quality support to make the most of his now limited contender years.

So the basic question is, does Vaughn give you enough NOW to dismiss the potential future of those two wings? And do those wings have enough potential for LATER to make up for Vaughn's current hedge?

[tav1]

I think so. But I was under the impression that veteran minimum players are not counted against the salary cap anyways.

I think you're correct. Half is paid by the league.

Waive him.

[fyatuk]

I think so. But I was under the impression that veteran minimum players are not counted against the salary cap anyways.

If a player (of 3 or more years experience) is playing under a 1 year, 10 day, or rest-of-season minimum contract, the league pays the portion of the salary above the two-year veteran minimum. The cap charge this year for such a player would be about $798k.

[The Truth #6]

Essentially what the staff is likely arguing is the idea of win now or win later.

It's important to understand how the staff views each of the players.

Vaughn is definitely a win now player. His value decreases with each year as his age increases. There is no hope of "developing" a player like Vaughn. He is what he is.

Hairston is likely viewed as a win later player. One can assume that he will have an appreciating value to the team and that the dividends from his development likely wouldn't be felt this year.

I'm curious how the staff views Farmer. He obviously has the ability to score right now, but would he be able to overtake even a player like Finley? That still leaves Bowen/Udoka/Mason and eventually Ginobili in front of him even if he does. But hes young, so developing him is likely a draw as well. So maybe hes something of a blended now & later kind of guy?

With that aspect analyzed, what will each of these players bring to the team?

With Vaughn being a win NOW guy, and assuming Hill overtakes him, as well as a deep reserve he really contributes very little. Vaughn stands as a hedge against two things: injury and Hill contracting "Beno-itis" or otherwise hitting the rookie wall. And concerns over Hill are most definitely well-grounded. There are concerns about how he'll adapt (coming from a small college) and that his summer league appearances were often pedestrian. I think Hill will be good, but how good will he be this year? Jacque also was initially brought in to mentor both Parker and Beno. If ever there was a PG that needed mentoring it was a youthful one like Hill. Overall, Vaughn is their ace in the hole in case something goes south with any of the PGs, but especially Hill.

With Hairston being a win LATER guy his production is largely deferred. Hairston symbolizes a look towards the future and an anticipation of continued success.

Farmer being a blend offers an interesting situation. His win NOW aspect helps the team in a crucial area, but is probably little more than an injury hedge. And in the unlikely event that he makes the team and is active he also serves as a drought-buster. His win LATER aspect suggests that he can eventually take up the mantle held by some of the elder statesmen on the team (Finley?). Although, I'd say his ceiling is significantly lower than his competition's.

What are the team's motivations?

Obviously we want to win a championship. Now. Which lends itself to the win NOW players. Vaughn and to some degree Farmer, help this perspective.

But how long do we think the window will be open? Surely for a few more years at least. And our current wings are aging rapidly and probably won't be competitive as long as Mr. Duncan is. Bringing along quality wings enables the team to keep supplying Duncan with quality support to make the most of his now limited contender years.

So the basic question is, does Vaughn give you enough NOW to dismiss the potential future of those two wings? And do those wings have enough potential for LATER to make up for Vaughn's current hedge?

Good points, and I think you answered your own question.

In my opinion Vaughn really doesn't offer Win Now and he definitely doesn't offer Win Later. To me, he's neither. But yes he's more Win Now if only because there is no other option.

He is solid as a 3rd stringer but can we afford a third stringer when we have more pressing issues? We need help at the wing. In fact, we needed scoring at the wing before Manu had surgery. Remember, the obsession with JR Smith? With that in mind, it seems obvious we should keep Farmer because that is our most pressing need.

Also, you touched upon a good point about the FO being set in their ways. I would go farther and say that their at time formulaic approach to personnel is not always helpful and clouds their vision to what seems to be obvious decisions.

For example, our obsession with finding the next Robert Horry.

Horry, a 7 time NBA champion is not someone you can easily replace and the idea that they were grooming Bonner for that role looks basically retarded. Could anyone be more ill-equipped than Bonner to fit that role? The only thing they have in common is being tall and being able to shoot the 3, but in reality Bonner can't always shoot the 3 and to make the distinction more pronounced, Horry was actually useful in ways that had nothing to do with outside shooting, such as all around basketball knowledge, you know, things Bonner is lacking.

To make it worse, they're continuing with this formula so that now Tolliver is being groomed at the replacement to Horry's replacement. Tolliver is a fine player but in our insistence on finding the next Horry we've kept Bonner around at the expense of signing Scola, and then added Tolliver on top of Bonner at the expense of sending Gist off to Europe. Am I the only one who thinks Bonner is less useful than those two players?

[SenorSpur]

To make it worse, they're continuing with this formula so that now Tolliver is being groomed at the replacement to Horry's replacement. Tolliver is a fine player but in our insistence on finding the next Horry we've kept Bonner around at the expense of signing Scola, and then added Tolliver on top of Bonner at the expense of sending Gist off to Europe. Am I the only one who thinks Bonner is less useful than those two players?

Not at all. It's absolutely assinine to think that Bonner was kept at the expense of Scola. I'm sure the FO would spin it another way, but essentially that's what happened. Of course, I give them a pass on that one because at the time, it was widely assumed that Spilitter was coming over.

However your point is very well taken. Having Scola and Gist on the roster would make for a much better team.

IMO, one wrench that delayed the Scola arrival was the quiet acquisition of Oberto a couple of seasons ago. I wasn't a member of the board back then, but who saw that one coming?

[Darkwaters]

To make it worse, they're continuing with this formula so that now Tolliver is being groomed at the replacement to Horry's replacement. Tolliver is a fine player but in our insistence on finding the next Horry we've kept Bonner around at the expense of signing Scola, and then added Tolliver on top of Bonner at the expense of sending Gist off to Europe. Am I the only one who thinks Bonner is less useful than those two players?

I'm actually fine with this move. It's unclear how much Gist would have played this year for the silver and black anyways. Besides, I'm looking forward to some games in Avila this year and seeing Gist play out in Italy.

[jmard5]

So have Green and Watkins been waived yet?

Maybe Pop is trying to work a deal to offload someone.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ap-spurs-moves&prov=ap&type=lgns

Spurs waive 3 to put roster at 16

SAN ANTONIO (AP)—The Spurs waived guards Devin Green and Salim Stoudamire and center Darryl Watkins on Thursday.

Green averaged 7.0 points and 22 minutes in four preseason games, while Stoudamire averaged 5.5 points in two games. Watkins played in five preseason games, averaging 3.2 points and 3.2 rebounds.

The moves leave the Spurs with 16 players on their roster, one over the regular-season maximum.

[ChumpDumper]

It's absolutely assinine to think that Bonner was kept at the expense of Scola. I'm sure the FO would spin it another way, but essentially that's what happened.Except it didn't. Butler was dumped at the expense of Scola -- but if it makes you feel superior to the Spurs' FO, by all means keep believing your story.

[SenorSpur]

Except it didn't. Butler was dumped at the expense of Scola -- but if it makes you feel superior to the Spurs' FO, by all means keep believing your story.

My bad. Thanks for the correction.

[ChumpDumper]

:lol @ my being a douche about it. I've just explained it too many times. I wish it hadn't gone down that way, but money is money.

[Obstructed_View]

The only real no-brainer seems to be keeping both Hairston and Farmer, which obviously isn't going to happen or it would have happened by now.

[holcs50]

think cutting salim without giving him a real chance is a big mistake-but thats just my thoughts. think you gotta keep farmer and tolliver. Still can't believe the spurs keep an old guy like vaughn who will not help the spurs get anywhere in the playoffs compared to a guy that COULD potentially hit some huge 3's and is a great FT shooter? hmm, oh well

[SenorSpur]

:lol @ my being a douche about it. I've just explained it too many times. I wish it hadn't gone down that way, but money is money.

I know. From a net benefit and net loss standpoint, it just appears that way to many of us - even those that have read the explanations many times over the past year.

[tav1]

The Charlotte Observer is reporting that Larry Brown wants to add a veteran third point guard...

[Obstructed_View]

The Charlotte Observer is reporting that Larry Brown wants to add a veteran third point guard...

Can the Spurs trade JV for a second rounder or something?

[tav1]

Can the Spurs trade JV for a second rounder or something?

I'm just getting to today's basketball headlines...

Charlotte has 15. I'm not sure if all 15 contracts are guaranteed. I can check.

Mike Harris was waived by Houston; I wonder why they didn't waive Steve Francis?

Nick Fazekas and Steven Hill were waived too.

Okay, wrong thread. I'll stop.

[Darkwaters]

Can the Spurs trade JV for a second rounder or something?

Doubtful. I guess it's possible, but I really don't see it happening.

[ChumpDumper]

I would probably take Mike Harris over Tolliver at this point.

[tav1]

I would probably take Mike Harris over Tolliver at this point.

Short dude, though.

[ChumpDumper]

Who isn't short on this team?

[tav1]

Who isn't short on this team?

Ha!

[tav1]

I would probably take Mike Harris over Tolliver at this point.

Of the guys that have been cut thus far, I'd really like to see Steven Hill on the Toros. He's got legit height for a center and is a pure shot blocker--with the right tutelage, he could become a solid rotational big. Smart, hard working guy too, from everything I've read.

I'm one one of the few in the country, but I'm really curious to see what happens with Austin's roster.