'b' Carved Into 20-year Old Woman's Face... Developing...

[timvp]

the ones that "smelled the rat" and posted consistently. i never wavered.Props. Nice call.


and i would never attempt to implicate mccain himself.That's great. I don't know where you think I said everyone who called the girl a liar was going to suddenly scheme to pin this on McCain. I simply meant that we will see someone, somewhere come up with a way to pin this on McCain.

And really, I think it's fair game. In the perfect world, maybe not. But the political world is much different.

[ChumpDumper]

Sounds more like a Todd Palin operation.

[timvp]

I don't think there is anything closeted about LJ's political takes. His ideas are intriguing to me and I would like to subscribe to his newsletter.Beware. My newsletter makes Ron Paul's newsletter look like Mother Teresa's personal diary.

:smokin

[clambake]

Props. Nice call.

thanks. so, would you wearing the "ashley todd halloween costume" be out of the question?

[Cry Havoc]

Yeah, thats more or less what I was thinking when I posted that semi-defence post.

It seemed to me that you were just trying to point out the way either side will glom on to the actions of a few as representative of the candidates themselves.

But I stand by this statement....

Republicans are worse this election cycle, and it isnt even remotely close.

Im not talking about some criminal who hit some Obama volunteer, or some liberal retard who spray paints "racist" on the side of a house with a McCain poster in the front yard. Or worse than those even.

Im talking about the candidates. Their message, their rhetoric, their party's message and the speeches that they give.

Two words: Sarah Palin

Shes the ost divisive bitch in the country. She appeals to the lowest common denominator of society. Angry, Godly nitwits.

I havent heard one thing said by the Dems that suggests Palin is a terrorist, or that she is a fundamentalist who wants the Bible to be the Law in here, or any some such stupid ass claim.

But yet, I hear that bitch say "I love America" out of one side of her mouth while the other side says "Some parts of America are more American". WTF?!

Are you actually trying to divide the nation?! Is that your actual goal?! To be able to determine who fits your "ideal American" profile, so as We are on this side and They are on the other?

What ever happened to "United We Stand, Divided We Fall" you dumb, uncurious, paper tiger (<- I hope anyway)?

Yeah, you love America like Marie Antoinette loved France....from on high.



If you say so chief, but really, who gives a shit what I think?

I cannot agree more with DR here.

[Cry Havoc]

This is getting a LOT of play in the national media. It's on the CNN.com frontpage, and they just started talking about it on Hardball. They said McCain was ridiculous for jumping on it so quickly to use this as a push to attack Obama.

Personally, I don't think it's that big of a deal. It's one person. The GOP should probably have waited, but when you're down, you take any foothold you can get. This foothold just had a trip wire and steel jaws. Pretty sure if Obama was down by 7+ points and he found a story like this, it would have been brought to attention.

Even so, bad news for McCain & Co.

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

This is getting a LOT of play in the national media. It's on the CNN.com frontpage, and they just started talking about it on Hardball. They said McCain was ridiculous for jumping on it so quickly to use this as a push to attack Obama.

I missed this. Other than calling to give her a few words of encouragement and putting out a mild statement did he do anything else?

[Cry Havoc]

I missed this. Other than calling to give her a few words of encouragement and putting out a mild statement did he do anything else?

I don't know. I've been working a lot this week, so I haven't really had time to pay attention to much of the stuff being slung by either party. If anyone can confirm that McCain heavily backed this, it would be telling.

[Warlord23]

Not the best of threads for timvp. Oh well, it happens to the best of them.

Of course, this doesn't even crack a 4 or 5 on the "whott-style self-ownage" scale

[TheMadHatter]

Not the best of threads for timvp. Oh well, it happens to the best of them.

Of course, this doesn't even crack a 4 or 5 on the "whott-style self-ownage" scale

this doesn't crack 1-2 on whottt's scale. hell i don't even know if BRHornet's posts would crack 4-5 on whottt's scale.

[Cry Havoc]

this doesn't crack 1-2 on whottt's scale. hell i don't even know if BRHornet's posts would crack 4-5 on whottt's scale.

It's impossible, because I don't think BRH truly believes anything that he posts.

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

It's impossible, because I don't think BRH truly believes anything that he posts.

+1

[MannyIsGod]

I missed this. Other than calling to give her a few words of encouragement and putting out a mild statement did he do anything else?


John Verrilli, the news director for KDKA in Pittsburgh, told TPM Election Central that McCain's Pennsylvania campaign communications director gave one of his reporters a detailed version of the attack that included a claim that the alleged attacker said, "You're with the McCain campaign? I'm going to teach you a lesson."
Verrilli also told TPM that the McCain spokesperson had claimed that the "B" stood for Barack.


Per the daily dish

[Findog]

Not the best of threads for timvp. Oh well, it happens to the best of them.

Of course, this doesn't even crack a 4 or 5 on the "whott-style self-ownage" scale

whottt is basically the Michael Jordan of self-ownage...or David Robinson, since according to baseline bum, whottt thinks the Admiral was a better player than MJ. Nobody can touch whottt.

[Findog]

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Where's the black eye? Mama Cass sure cleans up good. The ACORN Pittsburgh Police are in the tank.

[Findog]

That Pittsburgh Police Lady is black and obviously in the tank for the Obama campaign.

FREE ASHLEY TODD!!!!

[Oh, Gee!!]

maybe the "b" was symbolic of the silent "b" in plumber.

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

Can't wait to read this spin by the Obamatards.

I support Obama in this election and I actually do hold Mc/P somewhat responsible, albeit indirectly. I'm actually curious to know if that qualifies as Obamatard spin because I see a big difference between spin and cautious reasoning.

I'm not asking to jump on the pile of people jerking you around, but because I'd like to know where you draw the line between partisan spin and a person expressing a reasoned argument.

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

McCain's Pennsylvania campaign communications director gave one of his reporters a detailed version of the attack that included a claim that the alleged attacker said, "You're with the McCain campaign? I'm going to teach you a lesson."

But, it was news and whatever official story he had should have been provided to reporters. It is then the reporters duty to verify. I wonder if the exchange was such that the reporter is implying this was an official stance of support by the campaign.

[Findog]

I'm sure Turd Fairy or whatever they call Karl Rove these days will offer her a job. She has the shameless mendacity and cesspool political views. The only thing missing is perhaps a makeover and $150K in new clothes.

[Anti.Hero]

:lmao

[George Gervin's Afro]

:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin: rollin

[Jelly]

She's still lying. She knows exactly how her face got that way. She did this deliberately and maliciously. I'm not buying this "mental problems" and "sometimes she blacks out" crap. Please.

[MannyIsGod]

But, it was news and whatever official story he had should have been provided to reporters. It is then the reporters duty to verify. I wonder if the exchange was such that the reporter is implying this was an official stance of support by the campaign.

The point being that if the campaign is going to promote a story of this manner it is because they are expecting to be on the receiving end of positive effects from the story. When said story blows up, that same campaign is going to get the effects of the story but they will be negative and it will be justified.

More simply put if you play with fire you better damn well be prepared to be burned.

[The Franchise]

This was a sad display of stupidity at best.

[Oh, Gee!!]

She's still lying. She knows exactly how her face got that way. She did this deliberately and maliciously. I'm not buying this "mental problems" and "sometimes she blacks out" crap. Please.

Conservatism is a Mental Disorder

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

The point being that if the campaign is going to promote a story of this manner it is because they are expecting to be on the receiving end of positive effects from the story. When said story blows up, that same campaign is going to get the effects of the story but they will be negative and it will be justified.

More simply put if you play with fire you better damn well be prepared to be burned.

Ummm. No. This happened on his watch to one of his "employees" and it's proper for him to share information with reporters. I don't see anything that demonstrates they promoted the story, only that they gave their volunteer the benefit of the doubt and shared the information they had with reporters. That is the proper way this should have been handled.

[Anti.Hero]

She's still lying. She knows exactly how her face got that way. She did this deliberately and maliciously. I'm not buying this "mental problems" and "sometimes she blacks out" crap. Please.

whoah whoah whoah.

Liberals have long favored the mentally ill plea. Payback's a bitch!

[Oh, Gee!!]

Ummm. No. This happened on his watch to one of his "employees" and it's proper for him to share information with reporters. I don't see anything that demonstrates they promoted the story, only that they gave their volunteer the benefit of the doubt and shared the information they had with reporters. That is the proper way this should have been handled.

or was it?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/24/ashley-todd-story-pushed_n_137710.html

[MannyIsGod]

Thats an incredibly naive view of what he was doing. I'm fairly certain THE PA campaign communications director does not personally oversee volunteers within the state. Its clear what he was doing which was pushing the story in an effort to make Obama look poorly by association.

How are we even debating this?

[Melmart1]

Ummm. No. This happened on his watch to one of his "employees" and it's proper for him to share information with reporters. I don't see anything that demonstrates they promoted the story, only that they gave their volunteer the benefit of the doubt and shared the information they had with reporters. That is the proper way this should have been handled.

According to this (http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/10/mccain_aide_gave_reporters_inc.php), Verrilli gave the reporters details of the attack BEFORE the facts were known, which is not only incendiary but grossly irresponsible as well.

If this is true, it was NOT proper for him to share details, and he didn't just promote the story, he helped make it up. That is shameful if true.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Thats an incredibly naive view of what he was doing. I'm fairly certain THE PA campaign communications director does not personally oversee volunteers within the state. Its clear what he was doing which was pushing the story in an effort to make Obama look poorly by association.

How are we even debating this?


Like this?



John McCain's Pennsylvania communications director told reporters in the state an incendiary version of the hoax story about the attack on a McCain volunteer well before the facts of the case were known or established -- and even told reporters outright that the "B" carved into the victim's cheek stood for "Barack," according to multiple sources familiar with the discussions.



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/24/ashley-todd-story-pushed_n_137710.html

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

or was it?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/24/ashley-todd-story-pushed_n_137710.html

This is why I was asking if there was anything other than him sharing the story he got from her with reporters. This could well be damning, I just want to see some proof of it.

I do believe Mc/P have an indirect measure of cause in this event, but if there's direct cause from the campaign itself, then I'll want to see more proof than a huffingtonpost.com article.

[LnGrrrR]

She's still lying. She knows exactly how her face got that way. She did this deliberately and maliciously. I'm not buying this "mental problems" and "sometimes she blacks out" crap. Please.

She was obviously coached by Palin in the fine art of "Making up a bunch of random crap and hoping they fall for it."

[MannyIsGod]

I don't even need to read those reports to know what happened. Its political campaigning 101. Shit, its politics 101. Reporters are fed stories all the time and this is simply another example of that. But just because something happens all the time doesn't mean you don't get flak when it blows up in your face.

[Oh, Gee!!]

This is why I was asking if there was anything other than him sharing the story he got from her with reporters. This could well be damning, I just want to see some proof of it.

I do believe Mc/P have an indirect measure of cause in this event, but if there's direct cause from the campaign itself, then I'll want to see more proof than a huffingtonpost.com article.

I heard McCain himself was holding the knife.

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

Thats an incredibly naive view of what he was doing. I'm fairly certain THE PA campaign communications director does not personally oversee volunteers within the state. Its clear what he was doing which was pushing the story in an effort to make Obama look poorly by association.

How are we even debating this?

It doesn't matter if he personally oversaw it. Look, if you work for American Express and you get "attacked" and someone scratches a Visa logo on your cheek then the press is going to rightly look to some spokesperson from Amex for a statement. Good PR says you give them what you know and you err on the side of the victim.

This is common sense 101. Now, if the guy acted improperly and said incendiary things on behalf of the campaign on the record to a reporter, that's different.

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

I heard McCain himself was holding the knife.

I see what you did there :p:

[MannyIsGod]

This is why I was asking if there was anything other than him sharing the story he got from her with reporters. This could well be damning, I just want to see some proof of it.

I do believe Mc/P have an indirect measure of cause in this event, but if there's direct cause from the campaign itself, then I'll want to see more proof than a huffingtonpost.com article.

There's no direct link. I'm sure that the McCain people had nothing to do with the story. But there's also no doubt that once they saw a story that could potentially help their cause, they jumped on it and pushed it before having all the facts.

Now they get to enjoy having a negative story associated with their campaign. They could have let it lie and it probably doesn't big nearly as big a story yesterday and thus never blows up in their face but by pushing it and having McCain call her directly they made it bigger and now have to deal with a news cycle filled with this hoax.

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

There's no direct link. I'm sure that the McCain people had nothing to do with the story. But there's also no doubt that once they saw a story that could potentially help their cause, they jumped on it and pushed it before having all the facts.


I don't see any proof they jumped all over it. Maybe they did. But I don't see evidence of that in anything posted here.

[MannyIsGod]

It doesn't matter if he personally oversaw it. Look, if you work for American Express and you get "attacked" and someone scratches a Visa logo on your cheek then the press is going to rightly look to some spokesperson from Amex for a statement. Good PR says you give them what you know and you err on the side of the victim.

This is common sense 101. Now, if the guy acted improperly and said incendiary things on behalf of the campaign on the record to a reporter, that's different.

Except political campaigns aren't business corporations and deal with an entirely different subset of PR. Pushing a story and giving a statement are 2 different things. Had the guy said something to the effect of we hope she's OK and that the perp is caught we wouldn't be having this conversation would be?

But what did he say? He framed it in a political context that would make Obama look bad. Thats not giving a statement. Thats spinning the story to benefit your side.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Now, if the guy acted improperly and said incendiary things on behalf of the campaign on the record to a reporter, that's different.

like saying "b stands for barack," or that the alleged attacker told the alleged victim he was going to "teach her a lesson" after finding out she supported McCain? Those types of things? Read the fucking story.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/24/ashley-todd-story-pushed_n_137710.html

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

like saying "b stands for barack," or that the alleged attacker told the alleged victim he was going to "teach her a lesson" after finding out she supported McCain? Those types of things? Read the fucking story.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/24/ashley-todd-story-pushed_n_137710.html

I read the fucking story. And once again. I don't see anything that indicates he was doing anything but relating the facts as they had been told to him. If the victim told him that's what happened then it's his obligation to share that with reporters.

[MannyIsGod]

like saying "b stands for barack," or that the alleged attacker told the alleged victim he was going to "teach her a lesson" after finding out she supported McCain? Those types of things? Read the fucking story.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/24/ashley-todd-story-pushed_n_137710.html

Exactly!!!!! He was PUSHING "facts" that he didn't really know. What do you think his motivations here were MarryAnn? I'm honestly not sure why we're even discussing this. I understand giving them the benefit of a doubt but com'on.

[timvp]

Not the best of threads for timvp. Oh well, it happens to the best of them.I don't exactly see what I said during the thread that turned out so wrong. I predicted spin prior to knowing the facts. I advocated waiting until a little bit of an investigation before digging into her personally. I didn't jump on the apparent victim blindly, although I did note that it looked fishy once the picture was produced.

Next time a woman with political connections makes an accusation, I'll know not to believe her. My bad, I have learned my lesson from showing halfway compassion to someone who claimed assault :toast

timvp was owned.

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

Exactly!!!!! He was PUSHING "facts" that he didn't really know. What do you think his motivations here were MarryAnn? I'm honestly not sure why we're even discussing this. I understand giving them the benefit of a doubt but com'on.

Do you understand what disclosure is? I don't have any idea what his motivations were. I can only go by his actions. As far as we know he was told a story of the attack by the victim. He then relayed those facts to the reporters that hang around him every day. He is obligated to give the facts as he knows them to reporters. It is the reporters job to verify those facts.

[MannyIsGod]

I read the fucking story. And once again. I don't see anything that indicates he was doing anything but relating the facts as they had been told to him. If the victim told him that's what happened then it's his obligation to share that with reporters.

Except i'm 99.9% The communications director of the McCain Campaign in PA has never even met this woman much less gotten a first hand account from her.

Are you seriously thinking that McCain's PA communications director had any motivation in these conversations with reporters other than pushing the story for political gain?

[MannyIsGod]

Well, you can give the guy the benefit of a doubt if you'd like but I stand by my assertion that it is an incredibly naive view of what a communications director for a campaign does. Absent a statement from the guy saying thats what he was going for I'm not sure what more proof you'll find.

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

Except i'm 99.9% The communications director of the McCain Campaign in PA has never even met this woman much less gotten a first hand account from her.

Are you seriously thinking that McCain's PA communications director had any motivation in these conversations with reporters other than pushing the story for political gain?

The girl had a photo of herself ready for the internet in a matter of hours. You honestly don't think she called the PR guy at the McCain center to give them the inside scoop as she saw it? I'll bet you money he talked with her on the phone. Hell McCain and Palin called her - you don't think the PR guy did?

The communications director doesn't have to have motivation one way or the other. He has an obligation to share any information he has about the incident.

You can't demand full disclosure from them one minute and then criticize them for it the next.

[timvp]

I understand both sides of the Manny and MaryAnnKilledGinger. I agree with MaryAnnKilledGinger that the initial reaction could have very well been following political protocol, however Manny is right when he says that doing so was playing with fire.

You are both pretty much right, just looking at it differently. McCain will either have fault or won't have fault depending on that certain view.

[Melmart1]

I read the fucking story. And once again. I don't see anything that indicates he was doing anything but relating the facts as they had been told to him. If the victim told him that's what happened then it's his obligation to share that with reporters.

He related these "facts" before police had confirmed anything. That is dangerous, I don't care how you spin it. Imagine if both campaigns just started reporting 'facts' about crimes to reporters based on stuff their supporters said. How many 'victims' of stories like this would we have on our hands?

If some random Obama supporter said that some white honkey slashed his tires and yelled racial epithets at him after seeing an Obama/Biden sticker on his car, it would be completely irresponsible of the local Obama communications director to start filling in details of the crime before facts had been substantiated. This is the same thing, only worse because physical harm and sexual assault were implied, which is obviously a bigger deal than slashed tires and name-calling.

[ElNono]

I understand both sides of the Manny and MaryAnnKilledGinger. I agree with MaryAnnKilledGinger that the initial reaction could have very well been following political protocol, however Manny is right when he says that doing so was playing with fire.

You are both pretty much right, just looking at it differently. McCain will either have fault or won't have fault depending on that certain view.

Now I'm waiting for TheMadHatter to jump all over your argument...

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

Well, you can give the guy the benefit of a doubt if you'd like but I stand by my assertion that it is an incredibly naive view of what a communications director for a campaign does.

Yes, I'm incredibly naive to believe a communications director is under obligation to share information with the reporters who are assigned to him on a daily basis. Good one.

[timvp]

Now I'm waiting for TheMadHatter to jump all over your argument...
Yeah, the puppy dog will no doubt be coming in soon. Good call. Maybe he can recycle the Bush quote for the 234234235234th time.

[Cry Havoc]

This thread is so awesome now that I'm going to go play some 2k9. :lol

[MannyIsGod]

The girl had a photo of herself ready for the internet in a matter of hours. You honestly don't think she called the PR guy at the McCain center to give them the inside scoop as she saw it? I'll bet you money he talked with her on the phone. Hell McCain and Palin called her - you don't think the PR guy did?

The communications director doesn't have to have motivation one way or the other. He has an obligation to share any information he has about the incident.

You can't demand full disclosure from them one minute and then criticize them for it the next.

:lol

What? He's a fucking spin artist! He has an obligation to spin things in favor for his side!! Thats what these people do for the campaigns! Thats what media relations is for these campaigns.

If the media wants unbiased information on the event they go to a source like THE POLICE. The McCain campaign had absolutely ZERO to do with the events of a volunteer when they're off doing their own thing.

Let me put it to you this way. If I get robbed tomorrow does the media call the Obama campaign to get information on my situation simply because I've volunteered with them? Of course not.

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

He related these "facts" before police had confirmed anything. That is dangerous, I don't care how you spin it. Imagine if both campaigns just started reporting 'facts' about crimes to reporters based on stuff their supporters said. How many 'victims' of stories like this would we have on our hands?

How he was presenting the information is important. But he wasn't claiming to be a witness. He was relating the facts that the witness relayed to him. Obviously no one in the press should have believed that he was trying to supply facts other than those that had been relayed to him by the victim.


If some random Obama supporter said that some white honkey slashed his tires and yelled racial epithets at him after seeing an Obama/Biden sticker on his car, it would be completely irresponsible of the local Obama communications director to start filling in details of the crime before facts had been substantiated. This is the same thing, only worse because physical harm and sexual assault were implied, which is obviously a bigger deal than slashed tires and name-calling.

It would absolutely be his job to relay whatever information he was given and anything but irresponsible. But the presentation of that information is the KEY and exactly what I'm trying to get some information on.

[MannyIsGod]

Yes, I'm incredibly naive to believe a communications director is under obligation to share information with the reporters who are assigned to him on a daily basis. Good one.

No, naive for not understanding the motivation for HOW he presents the information and what information he spreads. I mean why didn't he mention that the volunteers friends doubted her story? Why didn't he mention that the girls story was fractured and the police doubted her story and thought ti was inconsistent?

Or best of all, Why did he present a the story to appear as negatively as possible for the Obama campaign?

[MannyIsGod]

Question: If the Communications director points the media to talk to the police to get the facts are we having this discussion? Of course not, but then again if he does that then he can't frame the story to appear so horrible for Obama, now can he?

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

:lol

What? He's a fucking spin artist! He has an obligation to spin things in favor for his side!! Thats what these people do for the campaigns! Thats what media relations is for these campaigns.

If the media wants unbiased information on the event they go to a source like THE POLICE. The McCain campaign had absolutely ZERO to do with the events of a volunteer when they're off doing their own thing.

Let me put it to you this way. If I get robbed tomorrow does the media call the Obama campaign to get information on my situation simply because I've volunteered with them? Of course not.

She wasn't off doing her own thing. She was on her way to a meeting. Moreover, she was in a constant state of being with the campaign because she was traveling with them.

An attack takes place while you are in the process of volunteering at the time the event took place? You bet your ass the media calls the campaign to get information.

Manny, you seem a good sort, but I don't think you have the faintest understanding of how PR works in the real world. Especially in a 24/7 news cycle.

[MannyIsGod]

She wasn't off doing her own thing. She was on her way to a meeting. Moreover, she was in a constant state of being with the campaign because she was traveling with them.

An attack takes place while you are in the process of volunteering at the time the event took place? You bet your ass the media calls the campaign to get information.

Manny, you seem a good sort, but I don't think you have the faintest understanding of how PR works in the real world. Especially in a 24/7 news cycle.

Well if your if your last statement isn't the most ironic post in this thread I'm not sure what is. Am I to assume that the White House Press Secretary is simply there to give information as well?

[whottt]

Why in the fuck are you idiots saying I got owned? I sat there and said I hadn't read that much about it in the quote you guys keep copying...


I said based on the other actions of Obama supporters in this campaign it sounds real enough to me...


I listed the examples...plus there are plenty on this forum. Including this thread.


Guess what? It still sounds like something an Obama supporter would do...that hasn't changed.


And the way you guys attacked this woman. judged, witchunted and ridiculed the instant your saviour was questioned says much more about you guys than it does me...I don't give a fuck who you think you've owned.




That said...what a dumb fucking bitch....but I didn't get owned...no matter how much you guys might wish that was true.

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

No, naive for not understanding the motivation for HOW he presents the information and what information he spreads. I mean why didn't he mention that the volunteers friends doubted her story? Why didn't he mention that the girls story was fractured and the police doubted her story and thought ti was inconsistent?

If he had ANY reason to doubt her story, he would have been working his ass off to downplay it. Your logic makes no sense.


Or best of all, Why did he present a the story to appear as negatively as possible for the Obama campaign?

Gee. That sounds exactly like what I was asking for proof of. :bang

[exstatic]

NOT the October surprise the McCain camp was hoping for, I would guess.

[Cry Havoc]

Guess what? It still sounds like something an Obama supporter would do...that hasn't changed.

And the way you guys attacked this woman. judged, witchunted and ridiculed the instant your saviour was questioned says much more about you guys than it does me...I don't give a fuck who you think you've owned.

:lmao

Pure idiocy.

[ElNono]

Why in the fuck are you idiots saying I got owned? I sat there and said I hadn't read that much about it in the quote you guys keep copying...

I said based on the other actions of Obama supporters in this campaign it sounds real enough to me...

I listed the examples...plus there are plenty on this forum. Including this thread.

Guess what? It still sounds like something an Obama supporter would do...that hasn't changed.

And the way you guys attacked this woman. judged, witchunted and ridiculed the instant your saviour was questioned says much more about you guys than it does me...I don't give a fuck who you think you've owned.

That said...what a dumb fucking bitch....but I didn't get owned...no matter how much you guys might wish that was true.



Why's everyone laughing?

:lmao:lmao:lmao

http://menacingmorons.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/owned.jpg

[MannyIsGod]

The McCain spokesperson's claims -- which came in the midst of extraordinary and heated conversations late yesterday between the McCain campaign, local TV stations, and the Obama camp, as the early version of the story rocketed around the political world -- is significant because it reveals a McCain official pushing a version of the story that was far more explosive than the available or confirmed facts permitted at the time.
The claims to KDKA from the McCain campaign were included in an early story that ran late yesterday on KDKA's Web site. The paragraphs containing these assertions were quickly removed from the story after the Obama campaign privately complained that KDKA was letting the McCain campaign spin a racially-charged version of the story before the facts had been established, according to two sources familiar with the discussions.


The media outlet apparently agreed seeing how they didn't leave the comments up.

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

Question: If the Communications director points the media to talk to the police to get the facts are we having this discussion? Of course not, but then again if he does that then he can't frame the story to appear so horrible for Obama, now can he?

"We don't have any information right now and can only say our prayers are with the victim. We're referring all inquiries to the police at this time."

Yes. That happens and we don't have a discussion. However, the girl is an attention-seeker and from all indications it appears as though she called McCain PR herself to get the story out. At this point the communications director has direct information. And reporters are sort of good about asking if you have that kind of thing.

He could have said he'd spoken with the victim and didn't want to comment further. I give you and and he may well be an asshat of the first water and fallen for this like a moron. But just because he had a first-hand account from the victim and passed on that account to reporters doesn't mean what you want it to mean.

[MannyIsGod]

"We don't have any information right now and can only say our prayers are with the victim. We're referring all inquiries to the police at this time."

Yes. That happens and we don't have a discussion. However, the girl is an attention-seeker and from all indications it appears as though she called McCain PR herself to get the story out. At this point the communications director has direct information. And reporters are sort of good about asking if you have that kind of thing.

He could have said he'd spoken with the victim and didn't want to comment further. I give you and and he may well be an asshat of the first water and fallen for this like a moron. But just because he had a first-hand account from the victim and passed on that account to reporters doesn't mean what you want it to mean.

No it does actually. He had a choice here. He could have not said anything and there's no huge uproar with that course of action. As a communications director for a campaign you have to know that everything you say has an effect. And I think its safe to say unless this guy is an Obama worker in sheeps clothing he has a goal in mind with every statement he makes to the media.

In politics when speaking to the media you can't just say "I was just giving information" because thats not the way political media relations work. There is no obligation to give the information you have to the media. None. He's not the police.

By making that information available he puts himself and his campaign in the line of fire should that information turn out to be inaccurate. Thats the way things work.

[Melmart1]

It would absolutely be his job to relay whatever information he was given and anything but irresponsible. But the presentation of that information is the KEY and exactly what I'm trying to get some information on.

The claims to KDKA from the McCain campaign were included in an early story that ran late yesterday on KDKA's Web site. The paragraphs containing these assertions were quickly removed from the story after the Obama campaign privately complained that KDKA was letting the McCain campaign spin a racially-charged version of the story before the facts had been established, according to two sources familiar with the discussions.

The story with the removed grafs is still right here. We preserved the three missing grafs from yesterday:

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/10/mccain_aide_gave_reporters_inc.php

A source familiar with what happened yesterday confirmed that the unnamed spokesperson was communications director Peter Feldman. Feldman was also quoted yesterday making virtually identical assertions on the Web site of another local TV station, WPXI. But those quotes, which we also preserved here, (http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/statepages/missing-grafs-from-wpxi-story.php) are also no longer available on WPXI's site, for reasons that are unclear.

After that, KDKA went back to McCain's Pennsylvania spokesperson, Feldman, and asked if he stood by the story as he'd earlier told it, but he started backing off the story, a source familiar with the talks says. That prompted KDKA to remove the grafs.

I bolded the last part because I feel it is important. If the spokesperson had simply been duped by Ashley Todd, all they had to do was cry foul, say they were victimized by her story, too and were innocent in all this. But they didn't. Instead, they backed off their story, causing two Web sites to have to retract parts of their story (that were thankfully preserved in the links). If they were lied to by Todd like everyone else, they should just come out and say it.

I also find interesting your repeated assertion that they were relaying the story they got from the victim. Do you have a link that says they spoke to the victim, and that's where they got the details the spokesperson provided to reporters? Because I can't find evidence of this anywhere. My train of thought is there is no evidence of this because that isn't what happened. Nobody talked to her, yet they still filled in details of the attack. Ones that were damning of Obama supporters.

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

No it does actually. He had a choice here. He could have not said anything and there's no huge uproar with that course of action. As a communications director for a campaign you have to know that everything you say has an effect. And I think its safe to say unless this guy is an Obama worker in sheeps clothing he has a goal in mind with every statement he makes to the media.

In politics when speaking to the media you can't just say "I was just giving information" because thats not the way political media relations work.

We're not going to agree here. You have a double-standard of disclosure to the press that I can't follow. This guy may have very well acted inappropriately, but nothing presented here shows proof of that yet.

[timvp]

No it does actually. He had a choice here. He could have not said anything and there's no huge uproar with that course of action. As a communications director for a campaign you have to know that everything you say has an effect. And I think its safe to say unless this guy is an Obama worker in sheeps clothing he has a goal in mind with every statement he makes to the media.

In politics when speaking to the media you can't just say "I was just giving information" because thats not the way political media relations work. There is no obligation to give the information you have to the media. None. He's not the police.

By making that information available he puts himself and his campaign in the line of fire should that information turn out to be inaccurate. Thats the way things work.Out of curiosity, do you think the Obama machine would have handled the same event differently?

[MannyIsGod]

You're not going to get any proof. What kind of proof could possible prove that inconclusively outside of the guy admitting it? But the fact of the matter is that high ranking officials of political campaigns don't just give information to the media. They give information to the media with a goal in mind. This is simply undeniable.

I don't know what other goal he could have in mind other than making Obama look bad. Believing he was "just giving out information" and not trying to spin things is why I said you were naive. I don't know any communications directors for presidential campaigns speak to the media without a goal in mind.

[MannyIsGod]

Out of curiosity, do you think the Obama machine would have handled the same event differently?

Probably not. It would take a really cautious media liaison to play it that safe. Its a risky business and the best players in the game aren't the ones who stay out of trouble but the ones who spin themselves out of said trouble when they step in it.

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

I bolded the last part because I feel it is important. If the spokesperson had simply been duped by Ashley Todd, all they had to do was cry foul, say they were victimized by her story, too and were innocent in all this. But they didn't. Instead, they backed off their story, causing two Web sites to have to retract parts of their story (that were thankfully preserved in the links). If they were lied to by Todd like everyone else, they should just come out and say it.

Calling a victim a liar when you're not sure is irresponsible. It seems to me that "backing off the story" just means he was getting more information that conflicted. At that point, it's the news station's call to remove the information and they made the right call.

If he did contribute untrue facts on his own into this story, then I agree that the guy needs to get raked over the coals. I just don't see it yet.


I also find interesting your repeated assertion that they were relaying the story they got from the victim. Do you have a link that says they spoke to the victim, and that's where they got the details the spokesperson provided to reporters? Because I can't find evidence of this anywhere. My train of thought is there is no evidence of this because that isn't what happened. Nobody talked to her, yet they still filled in details of the attack. Ones that were damning of Obama supporters.

I'm basing that assumption on the fact that both Palin and McCain personally spoke with her and I'm assuming she'd have had to deal with some chain of communication. That feels reasonable to me, but I don't believe I've seen it specifically stated that she spoke with the PR person that released the information to the press. I strongly suspect she spoke to anyone and everyone that would listen, but it would be nice to know that for a fact.

I'm not saying the guy's not an idiot. I'd just prefer to have proof of idiocy.

[Melmart1]

A little off-topic but can I just say that the thing that angers me the most in all of this is not the lies, the racial implications or the way the campaign handled it. It is the fact that in her second (or maybe third) version of the story, she added sexual assault to the lies. Women who are victims of rape or other sexually-charged crimes and harassment have a hard enough time with public perception as it is. Their entire lives, the way they dress, their sexuality, is all trotted out to try and prove her wrong.

So this dumb bitch goes and makes it up, which just sets it up for more people to be callous or doubting of claims by future victims. She already had the attention she was obviously craving without adding in the sexual assault. Couldn't she have just left bad enough alone?:bang

[Findog]

Out of curiosity, do you think the Obama machine would have handled the same event differently?

Not the person you asked, but to jump in here, absolutely yes I think they would. Who tipped off Drudge? He is the reason this story went national, and he had a hed up on his site for quite a while before the Mellon Scaife paper in Pittsburgh reported it. The McCain campaign or his allies fed it to him.

[timvp]

A little off-topic but can I just say that the thing that angers me the most in all of this is not the lies, the racial implications or the way the campaign handled it. It is the fact that in her second (or maybe third) version of the story, she added sexual assault to the lies. Women who are victims of rape or other sexually-charged crimes and harassment have a hard enough time with public perception as it is. Their entire lives, the way they dress, their sexuality, is all trotted out to try and prove her wrong.

So this dumb bitch goes and makes it up, which just sets it up for more people to be callous or doubting of claims by future victims. She already had the attention she was obviously craving without adding in the sexual assault. Couldn't she have just left bad enough alone?:bangI know I've learned my lesson for having halfway compassion for a female who cried assault. Next time, I'll assume the female is crying wolf.

[timvp]

Not the person you asked, but to jump in here, absolutely yes I think they would. Who tipped off Drudge? He is the reason this story went national, and he had a hed up on his site for quite a while before the Mellon Scaife paper in Pittsburgh reported it. The McCain campaign or his allies fed it to him.So the Obama PR reps institute more due diligence than the McCain PR reps?

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

You're not going to get any proof. What kind of proof could possible prove that inconclusively outside of the guy admitting it?

Proof of phone calls, emails, etc between himself and Todd, for one. Statements from the reporters who got the information directly from him for another.


But the fact of the matter is that high ranking officials of political campaigns don't just give information to the media. They give information to the media with a goal in mind. This is simply undeniable.

He's not a high ranking official making a special press conference. He's a communications director who speaks to a regular bank of reporters more often than he likely talks to his own family. And these guys give tons of information to the media that has no goal. They routinely have to answer questions like what kind of snacks the volunteers are getting. Yes, it's stupid. No, I'm not kidding.


I don't know what other goal he could have in mind other than making Obama look bad. Believing he was "just giving out information" and not trying to spin things is why I said you were naive. I don't know any communications directors for presidential campaigns speak to the media without a goal in mind.

Exactly how many commnications directors can you read the mind of on a regular basis and when did you discover such a gift? That must be wonderful to have.

I'll keep you in mind the next time I watch a communications director answer what brand of shoes their candidate wears and whether or not he/she likes peas.

[Findog]

So the Obama PR reps institute more due diligence than the McCain PR reps?

McCain's campaign seems to be beset by infighting, leaks and a lack of discipline. Part of why Obama is winning is that none of that applies to his campaign. When his supporters were screaming to the rooftops about how awful Palin was and trashing her nonstop, he and his campaign decided to ignore her, knowing that isn't smart politics. Time after time, his campaign has been vindicated after having their strategy questioned.

If some Obamatard, as you like to call them, pulled a stunt like this, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't want to draw attention to it. These sorts of things are like live hand grenades, and this one blew up in McCain's lap. Ultimately though I don't know who is changing their vote or making up their minds based on this.

[Melmart1]

So the Obama PR reps institute more due diligence than the McCain PR reps?

They are ahead, there is no reason for them to go on record and do something risky like that. They are basically just playing defense right now. Why pry defeat from the jaws of victory over an unsubstantiated story?

McCain's campaign is behind and has nothing to lose,which I think greatly contributed to the fact that they gave the details to the reporters. That, plus it happened in PA, where they are hedging their bets (and therefore, the entire campaign).

If their fortunes had been reversed? That may be altogether different. Desperation brings out the worst in people, from both sides of the spectrum. So yeah, I think that if the polls were reversed, we might see the Obama campaign do something like that. But we will never know, so its a little useless to speculate.

[Buddy Holly]

This may have been brought up but I'm seriously tired and don't plan on reading too many more pages in this big thread but does anyone find the most preturbing part of this lie to be that her "attacker" was a big black man?

[Findog]

This may have been brought up but I'm seriously tired and don't plan on reading too many more pages in this big thread but does anyone find the most preturbing part of this lie to be that her "attacker" was a big black man?

She's obviously a racist idiot.

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

A little off-topic but can I just say that the thing that angers me the most in all of this is not the lies, the racial implications or the way the campaign handled it. It is the fact that in her second (or maybe third) version of the story, she added sexual assault to the lies. Women who are victims of rape or other sexually-charged crimes and harassment have a hard enough time with public perception as it is. Their entire lives, the way they dress, their sexuality, is all trotted out to try and prove her wrong.

So this dumb bitch goes and makes it up, which just sets it up for more people to be callous or doubting of claims by future victims. She already had the attention she was obviously craving without adding in the sexual assault. Couldn't she have just left bad enough alone?:bang

I'm not looking to be labeled the apologist for the Mc/P side of things here, but given her behavior, the odds are that she actually has been sexually assaulted at some point in her life.

It doesn't excuse anything that happened here. But this sort of attention-seeking self-destructive behavior is exhibited more often than not by someone with sexual assault in their history. It's how they self-justify. And, yes, it totally sucks.

[MannyIsGod]

Proof of phone calls, emails, etc between himself and Todd, for one. Statements from the reporters who got the information directly from him for another.



He's not a high ranking official making a special press conference. He's a communications director who speaks to a regular bank of reporters more often than he likely talks to his own family. And these guys give tons of information to the media that has no goal. They routinely have to answer questions like what kind of snacks the volunteers are getting. Yes, it's stupid. No, I'm not kidding.



Exactly how many commnications directors can you read the mind of on a regular basis and when did you discover such a gift? That must be wonderful to have.

I'll keep you in mind the next time I watch a communications director answer what brand of shoes their candidate wears and whether or not he/she likes peas.

Equivocating this conversation with reporters to one about shoes and volunteers snacks is about as intellectually dishonest as it gets. If you want to give him the benefit of the doubt that's fine (but i do maintain its naive - and thats nothing more than my opinion) but trying to compare this situation to another one is simply you doing some spinning of your own.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

BTW this thread is pretty funny. I think she punched herself in the eye and carved it herself while looking in a mirror.


PwwNtT

Jesus Christ sometimes my owning capabilities shock even me.

[Findog]

I'm not looking to be labeled the apologist for the Mc/P side of things here, but given her behavior, the odds are that she actually has been sexually assaulted at some point in her life.

It doesn't excuse anything that happened here. But this sort of attention-seeking self-destructive behavior is exhibited more often than not by someone with sexual assault in their history. It's how they self-justify. And, yes, it totally sucks.

I see what you're saying, but it's hard for me to have sympathy for her, it really is. I hope she gets help for her problems, but after looking at her myspace and twitter pages, it seems like she knew full well what she was doing.

[PixelPusher]

This may have been brought up but I'm seriously tired and don't plan on reading too many more pages in this big thread but does anyone find the most preturbing part of this lie to be that her "attacker" was a big black man?

yeah, I noted that earlier

Wow, and her story "felt" so true...I mean of course a scary black man who robs and mutilates people represents Obama supporters.
If she had claimed it was just some random Obama supporter that got into an argument in a parking lot that devolved into this, without the stereotypical "black thug", I would've been more worried that this might be real.

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

Equivocating this conversation with reporters to one about shoes and volunteers snacks is about as intellectually dishonest as it gets.

It is comfortable for you to label me as intellectually dishonest because if I am then you don't have to face the silliness of making a blanket statement like this:


But the fact of the matter is that high ranking officials of political campaigns don't just give information to the media. They give information to the media with a goal in mind. This is simply undeniable.

My arguement has been all about context. Yours have been all about blanket statements. I gave you an example that disproved your blanket statement and now you want to go back to context.

You need some work on your dismount.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Everyone who called bull shit deserves a spur, or a black eye icon or something

or easier yet--a backwards B icon....that would be perfect

[MannyIsGod]

K, how about I amend my statement to apply only to situations like this? I mean I figured that would have been obvious but if you honestly want to believe the point I was making applied to the guy saying "hello" to a reporter then I'll happily omit trivial situations from my statement.

I think we can both agree that the information he was giving the media was not on the level of someone's shoe size or who in the campaign prefers snickers bars.

I'm sure they never say "no comment" out of convenience though. Because of their obligation to share information they would only say "no comment" if they actually had no information.

[MannyIsGod]

BTW, your argument is not about context. Your argument is that he could be making a statement on an event of this magnitude that didn't have political goals or ramifications.

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

K, how about I amend my statement to apply only to situations like this? I mean I figured that would have been obvious but if you honestly want to believe the point I was making applied to the guy saying "hello" to a reporter then I'll happily omit trivial situations from my statement.

I don't know you from Zippo the clown. I respond to the argument you make, not the special mind reading powers i think I have over you. And I'll ignore you likening "saying hello" to answering actual questions. Oh, wait. No I won't.


I think we can both agree that the information he was giving the media was not on the level of someone's shoe size or who in the campaign prefers snickers bars.

Yes. Agreed and agreed.


I'm sure they never say "no comment" out of convenience though. Because of their obligation to share information they would only say "no comment" if they actually had no information.

You assume I think the guy's innocent. The truth is I really don't know. Could the situation have been handled smarter? Hell yes. But that's not the same thing as it being handled improperly. I'm not willing to call that until I see proof of it. You are, and that's fine. But at least own up that you don't have solid proof yet, either.

I've been in too many situations where PR takes the fall even when they haven't done anything wrong. Yes, in part that's the job you sign up for, but there is an important distinction between "you could have done something better" and "you did the wrong thing."

People get angry that candidates hide behind "no comment" all the time and then jump all over them when they make a mistake in the middle of a story's cycle. You reap what you sow.

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

BTW, your argument is not about context. Your argument is that he could be making a statement on an event of this magnitude that didn't have political goals or ramifications.

No. My argument is that the context of his statement and how it was presented is key in determining any political goals or ramifications that can be gleaned from the exchange. You don't get to tell me what my argument is. You may read the minds of communications directors everywhere, but you have no idea what color panties I'm wearing, Superman.

[Shastafarian]

No. My argument is that the context of his statement and how it was presented is key in determining any political goals or ramifications that can be gleaned from the exchange. You don't get to tell me what my argument is. You may read the minds of communications directors everywhere, but you have no idea what color panties I'm wearing, Superman.

:lol

[MannyIsGod]

I think if you're going to get angry because I don't spell everything out then make statements bout people getting angry over no comments and whether or not he handled this improperly you might have a problem because I'm pretty sure I said neither of those things. Who's reading minds now?

The fact that he gave a statement on the story so early and gave out information that later turned out to be inaccurate gives him and the McCain camp in turn ownership of the story. I'm on the record in this thread as stating I'm pretty sure the Obama camp would have done the same.

Whether that is proper or improper or right or wrong isn't really of any concern to me because its frankly irrelevant. His statements - in my opinion - were made with an intent to paint the Obama campaign in a bad light. I think the Obama camp would have doe the same. Thats simply the reality of the situation and because of that when it blows up in your face its going to look badly upon you.

That has nothing to do with wrong or right. It is what it is. He could have avoided the story all together but he didn't and because of that he and the McCain camp has to deal with the consequences.

[MannyIsGod]

No. My argument is that the context of his statement and how it was presented is key in determining any political goals or ramifications that can be gleaned from the exchange. You don't get to tell me what my argument is. You may read the minds of communications directors everywhere, but you have no idea what color panties I'm wearing, Superman.


Thats only because you're not wearing any. And Superman wasn't psychic. Pick another super hero please.

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

I think if you're going to get angry because I don't spell everything out then make statements bout people getting angry over no comments and whether or not he handled this improperly you might have a problem

What has given you the impression that I'm angry in any way? Oh. Right. Mind-reading powers. You're welcome to make sloppy blanket-statement arguments all day long. I'm not your mommy.


The fact that he gave a statement on the story so early and gave out information that later turned out to be inaccurate gives him and the McCain camp in turn ownership of the story.

He gave out information when he had it which was accurate at the time he did so as far as we know. I agree ownership of the story is an important element of this equation.


Whether that is proper or improper or right or wrong isn't really of any concern to me because its frankly irrelevant.

Yeah, that annoying stuff that can be proven is so irrelevant. It's the mind reading powers that are really the important crux of the issue.


His statements - in my opinion - were made with an intent to paint the Obama campaign in a bad light. I think the Obama camp would have doe the same. Thats simply the reality of the situation and because of that when it blows up in your face its going to look badly upon you.

You do understand that equating your opinion to reality is exactly what makes Palin a nutjob, right?


That has nothing to do with wrong or right. It is what it is. He could have avoided the story all together but he didn't and because of that he and the McCain camp has to deal with the consequences.

Right and wrong has no effect on how you hold a candidate to task for the consequences of events? Oy.

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

Thats only because you're not wearing any. And Superman wasn't psychic. Pick another super hero please.

I weep for a future that doesn't realize the link between Superman and "Can You Read My Mind."

Forgive them, John Williams, they know not what they do.

Thank you for making me feel just that old.

[Shastafarian]

MaryAnnKilledGinger is the seriously becoming my favorite poster. This is hilarious. :lol

[MannyIsGod]

Hold a candidate accountable? You act like I'm asking for the guy to be fired or for people to decide to vote for McCain on the subject. I love how you keep bringing up mind reading powers as though you're not posting statements from which I extrapolate your emotion (while ignoring where I pointed out that you're attributing stances to me that I never took). If I was wrong about that then its fine. You see how easy that is? Much easier than the continuous spin job you're buried within. I mean first you start off equating snacks with this attack and now you've gone so far as to equate me with Palin.

The bottom line is I believe he did what he did with a political goal in mind because thats what campaign officials who speak with the media on a regular basis do. Since you made such a big deal about my statement before, I'll say thats what they do with a story of this magnitude. How is this even debateable?

The curx of the disagreement is on how you percieve his actions. You believe he was simply pasing on information with no other motives in mind or you at least beleive thats a possibility. I don't. Given a story of this magnitude (last time I checked no candidate had to worry about a backlash from the M&M camp if he gave his volunteers Snickers but I digress) he had to know what he was doing. I suppose he could have not known to expect this type of backlash should a flimisy story blow up in his face, but if I find that to be extremely outlikely considering the state he's in charge of is now the centerpiece of the McCain campaign.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

This "chick" is posting in the exact same style as CF did when she was a young up and comer. Always mentioning panties, using metaphors for her nipples, etc, its so blatant its not even funny. CF this has to be your best friend or your arch enemy.

[Findog]

This "chick" is posting in the exact same style as CF did when she was a young up and comer. Always mentioning panties, using metaphors for her nipples, etc, its so blatant its not even funny. CF this has to be your best friend or your arch enemy.

MAKG is a new poster thanks to the Sullivan link.

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

Hold a candidate accountable? You act like I'm asking for the guy to be fired or for people to decide to vote for McCain on the subject.

No. I don't put words in your mouth. You are the one who keeps saying McCain deserves something negative because of this event. Case in point:


They would have stood to benefit from it which is why the blogosphere is on fire with the news that people in the Mccain campaign were pushing the story. That means they also deserve any negative reaction from it.


I love how you keep bringing up mind reading powers as though you're not posting statements from which I extrapolate your emotion

I promise you. I haven't been angry at any stage of this exchange. I take no joy in this event, but I've found my exchanges with you increasingly amusing. But I'm sure that my statements of my actual state of mind are meaningless in the face of your powers of extrapolation.


(while ignoring where I pointed out that you're attributing stances to me that I never took).

Please show me where I did this.


I mean first you start off equating snacks with this attack and now you've gone so far as to equate me with Palin.

You understand that the posts previous to this one are still available and you restating them doesn't change it, right? I mentioned the snacks becuase you made a blanket statement that communications directors never release information without a goal or slant. I equated that to nothing, merely gave an example that showed your blanket statement to be false.

As for equating you to Palin. You made a statement that equated your opinion to be the same as reality. Palin does the same thing. I didn't photoshop your avatar onto a Tina Fey pin-up.


The bottom line is I believe he did what he did with a political goal in mind because thats what campaign officials who speak with the media on a regular basis do. Since you made such a big deal about my statement before, I'll say thats what they do with a story of this magnitude. How is this even debateable?

What you believe and what the facts aren't the same thing. This entire round-and-round is based largely on the fact that you can't stop debating that single issue. To a lesser extent, it's based on the fact that it makes me giggle that you can read the minds of the world's communication directors.


The curx of the disagreement is on how you percieve his actions. You believe he was simply pasing on information with no other motives in mind or you at least beleive thats a possibility. I don't.

You have no idea what I believe about his actions. The crux of this disagreement is that I asked if anyone had proof or statements to indicate wrongdoing and you came at me with interpretation, mind-reading, and assumption.


Given a story of this magnitude (last time I checked no candidate had to worry about a backlash from the M&M camp if he gave his volunteers Snickers but I digress)

Google President Bush I and broccoli and see if there was any backlash from farmers. Backlash comes in all shapes and sizes.


he had to know what he was doing. I suppose he could have not known to expect this type of backlash should a flimisy story blow up in his face, but if I find that to be extremely outlikely considering the state he's in charge of is now the centerpiece of the McCain campaign.

I can't figure out your logic. You think he's dumb enough to behave impulsively and irresponsibly regarding this story, but he's saavy and slick enough to have earned the job he's in?

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

This "chick" is posting in the exact same style as CF did when she was a young up and comer. Always mentioning panties, using metaphors for her nipples, etc, its so blatant its not even funny. CF this has to be your best friend or your arch enemy.
I was so prepared to like you just on the basis of your being a Venture Bros fan.

And the panties was relevant to the Superman conversation. Just think how cool Manny would have seemed if he'd said "pink."

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I was so prepared to like you just on the basis of your being a Venture Bros fan.

And the panties was relevant to the Superman conversation. Just think how cool Manny would have seemed if he'd said "pink."

I'm not scoffing you, just stating the situation as I see it.

This thread is out of steam. Please give us a backwards B in reward for calling this fat unattractive aggy's BS and let us close it and store it in the classics. :smokin

[MannyIsGod]

I do have an idea what you believe about his actions in that I know you obviously leave open the possibility that he was acting without political motive. If you didn't you wouldn't need proof that he was. You don't need to be a mind reader to figure this out no matter how often you want to make that assertion.

This has gotten to the point of ridiculousness where you can't even respond to my posts coherently because you're too busy taking each individual statement out of context.

I was pointing out that I don't believe the director is stupid. I figured the ridiculousness of the statement would make that apparent but the only thing that is becoming more apparent is that subtleties are wasted upon you because the only things in my posts you grasp are those that are explicitly spelled out.

The bottom line is this: Given the way political campaigns are run when incidents of this magnitude come up the statements made by members of political campaign in this persons position are made with political intentions. Yes, that's a blanket statment and yes there will be rare exceptions. Is this case an exception? Given the context of the way McCain's campaign has been run I'm not even going to allow for that as a possibility.

But hey, when you find that proof you're striving for feel free to give it to me on a plate next to some crow. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for it.

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

I find it interesting that each time I've asked you to give an example of an accusation you've made against me that you change the subject and launch into a restatement of your argument or bring up new things entirely.

I'm content to let my posts stand on their own in regards to my intentions,context, coherence, and thoroughness in addressing your statements. You are either unable or unwilling to grasp the finer points I'm trying to make, and I don't have any desire for this exchange to foster any lasting negative feelings in you.

The reason I'd like to see proof has nothing to do with what I think the guy's intentions are, but everything to do with trying to gauge the potential impact this will have. Right now, the Mc/P camp is going to get some negative poking for the facts we have. But if the communications director of a battleground state has to resign in shame because there's evidence that he misdirected the dialog of a story like this - that amplifies things significantly. I don't care about his mindset. I only care about what can be proven against him legitimately and without stooping to antics.

I also don't like to see PR people take the fall when things aren't their fault and this thing is rife with the need for scapegoats.

Leaving open the possibility in the name of objectivity and leaving open the possibility in the realm of my personal feelings are entirely different. So your claim that you have an idea of what I believe is wrong.

As for the crow, you'll find that people who don't claim to read the minds of others and who don't make blanket statements rarely have to dine upon it. But then, neither do those who cannot admit they're mistaken or who believe their opinions are facts.

I'd end on something light and witty, but I'm afraid my references have already dated me too much.

[CuckingFunt]

This "chick" is posting in the exact same style as CF did when she was a young up and comer. Always mentioning panties, using metaphors for her nipples, etc, its so blatant its not even funny. CF this has to be your best friend or your arch enemy.

I was all innuendo when I first got here, though. The substance didn't come for a few months.


I was so prepared to like you just on the basis of your being a Venture Bros fan.

Being compared to me should never be seen as an insult.

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

Being compared to me should never be seen as an insult.

I was far from insulted :p: I was defending your honor, wench. :lol

[ElNono]

You guys still arguing? Please, last one to leave turn off the lights...

[Centaur of the Sun]

Much like all those people yelling nasty things things at McCain rally's, I think this was obviously a sleeper Obama supporter hoping to bring ridicule to McCain supporters.

[Nbadan]

Much like all those people yelling nasty things things at McCain rally's, I think this was obviously a sleeper Obama supporter hoping to bring ridicule to McCain supporters.

Errrrrrrrrr............


xe-5nr3NK34

[TheMadHatter]

Does anyone else agree that page long line by line rebuttals are fucking annoying as hell?

[peewee's lovechild]

Why in the fuck are you idiots saying I got owned? I sat there and said I hadn't read that much about it in the quote you guys keep copying...


I said based on the other actions of Obama supporters in this campaign it sounds real enough to me...


I listed the examples...plus there are plenty on this forum. Including this thread.


Guess what? It still sounds like something an Obama supporter would do...that hasn't changed.


And the way you guys attacked this woman. judged, witchunted and ridiculed the instant your saviour was questioned says much more about you guys than it does me...I don't give a fuck who you think you've owned.




That said...what a dumb fucking bitch....but I didn't get owned...no matter how much you guys might wish that was true.

What???

[ElNono]

Does anyone else agree that page long line by line rebuttals are fucking annoying as hell?

Not really...

[Centaur of the Sun]

Errrrrrrrrr............


xe-5nr3NK34

Sarcasm.

[CuckingFunt]

Does anyone else agree that page long line by line rebuttals are fucking annoying as hell?

Nope.

Well... not as a practice. The content can be annoying, but that's judged on a post-by-post basis.

[ChumpDumper]

I was so prepared to like you just on the basis of your being a Venture Bros fan.I can't decide whether whottt's posts are more fun if you act like they are being read by Byron Orpheus or the Monarch.

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

I can't decide whether whottt's posts are more fun if you act like they are being read by Byron Orpheus or the Monarch.

You just HAD to put that in my head.

[LnGrrrR]

She wasn't off doing her own thing. She was on her way to a meeting. Moreover, she was in a constant state of being with the campaign because she was traveling with them.

An attack takes place while you are in the process of volunteering at the time the event took place? You bet your ass the media calls the campaign to get information.

Manny, you seem a good sort, but I don't think you have the faintest understanding of how PR works in the real world. Especially in a 24/7 news cycle.

Was the word "allegedly" used? Because that would seem to make a big difference.

Also, the campaign could have told the press to contact the police for details as well.

[LnGrrrR]

And the way you guys attacked this woman. judged, witchunted and ridiculed the instant your saviour was questioned says much more about you guys than it does me...I don't give a fuck who you think you've owned.

That... we're intelligent enough to sniff out a hoax when we see one?

[LnGrrrR]

I know I've learned my lesson for having halfway compassion for a female who cried assault. Next time, I'll assume the female is crying wolf.

If the letter is backwards and the story makes no sense... I think having a healthy sense of skepticism is a good thing.

[DarkReign]

Brock, ftw.

[LnGrrrR]

Brock, ftw.

I think you hit my spleen! Don't leave me! I don't wanna die alone!

Can... you sing me a song? Something by Technotronic?

Maybe "Pump Up the Jam?" How about "Move This?" Please!

[Trainwreck2100]

I know I've learned my lesson for having halfway compassion for a female who cried assault. Next time, I'll assume the female is crying wolf.

that's what i assume

[CuckingFunt]

Brock, ftw.

Warburton, ftw.

[Spurtacus]

Damn racists in the McCain campaign.

[DarkReign]

Warburton, ftw.

I had to look that up. I detest Seinfeld in all matters of comedy, its my opinion that his "comedy" is responsible for the "comedies" we get these days (Knocked Up and its ilk), so I dont know this whole "Puddy" reference.

I only know his voice and it is instantly recognizable.

ftw

[JoeChalupa]

Seinfeld rocks baby!!!

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

I had to look that up. I detest Seinfeld in all matters of comedy, its my opinion that his "comedy"; is responsible for the &quot;comedies&quot; we get these days (Knocked Up and its ilk), so I dont know this whole "Puddy"; reference. I only know his voice and it is instantly recognizable. ftw

Warburton is the voice of Brock Sampson. I'm not sure there is a Seinfeld joke in there. If there is, I missed it too. The actor played Elaine's boyfriend for a while, but I don't recall any "ftw" catch phrase. Then again, I'm not the biggest Seinfeld fan, either.

[LnGrrrR]

Warburton is the voice of Brock Sampson. I'm not sure there is a Seinfeld joke in there. If there is, I missed it too. The actor played Elaine's boyfriend for a while, but I don't recall any "ftw" catch phrase. Then again, I'm not the biggest Seinfeld fan, either.

He also played the Tick in the live-action version. And, of course, he's Joe from Family Guy.

[DarkReign]

Warburton is the voice of Brock Sampson. I'm not sure there is a Seinfeld joke in there. If there is, I missed it too. The actor played Elaine's boyfriend for a while, but I don't recall any "ftw" catch phrase. Then again, I'm not the biggest Seinfeld fan, either.

Meh, I just threw "ftw" in there to keep the status quo with the recent replies.

And no, there was no Seinfeld joke anywhere in this thread. I had to look up who Warburton was, I found an interview he did and he said that his "Puddy" character was his most recognizable on the streets. You know, people seeing him and saying "Puddy!"

But his voice I obviously know quite well.