McDonald: Spurs' Three Bubble Players Fight For Two Roster Spots

[duncan228]

Spurs' three bubble players fight for two roster spots (http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/spurs/Spurs_three_bubble_players_fight_for_two_roster_sp ots.html)
By Jeff McDonald

Desmon Farmer had just slipped his gray sweater over his head and was heading out of the Spurs’ locker room Wednesday night when he heard the news.

Three more players had been cut.

Farmer left the arena that night with conflicting emotions.

He felt bad for Salim Stoudamire, Devin Green and Darryl Watkins, players he had grown close to over the past few weeks who were now gone. But, mostly, he was just glad he wasn’t them.

“I understand what they’re going through,” Farmer said. “I’ve gone through that, being cut, being one of the last cuts. At the same time, that’s just how it goes.”

New Spurs guard Roger Mason Jr., who has sweated out more than one cut day in his five-year professional career, compares the task of making an NBA team to winning a game of musical chairs.

After their latest round of dismissals, the Spurs are down to two seats, with three players still standing and the music about to stop.

Farmer, fellow guard Malik Hairston and forward Anthony Tolliver are vying for the two remaining spots. Spurs coach Gregg Popovich has until Monday to jettison one of them and get his roster down to 15.

It is unpleasant business, but it is also serious business.

“There’s nobody here that’s going to beat out Bruce Bowen for the (small forward) spot or Tony Parker at the point,” Popovich said. “But every team has got a plan for the future, and wants to bring in guys that can develop and hopefully take over at some point.”

The prospect of deciding which guys are those guys and which guys aren’t, Popovich said, “is not fun.”

“We spend a lot of time discussing, arguing, going back and forth, projecting the future,” he said.

The three remaining bubble players will play in tonight’s preseason finale against Miami and the AT&T Center, with each hoping to make his closing argument.

Tolliver, a 6-foot-8 shooting big man, would seem to have a bead on one of the open slots. He plays a different position, and fills a different role, than would either Farmer or Hairston.

Tolliver, billed as a long-range marksman, has hit on just 23.1 percent of his 3-pointers (6 of 26) this preseason. However, he has impressed with his energy and a surprising knack for making plays around the basket.

If anybody knows how quickly the rug can be pulled out from under a player in training camp, it’s Tolliver. He made it all the way through camp in Cleveland last year, only to be waived on opening day.

“There’s not too much that’s in my hands anymore,” Tolliver said. “The coaches have given our young guys a chance out there on the court. I can’t ask for anything more.”

Farmer, who spent eight games with Seattle in 2006 in between twice being cut from camp with the Pacers, has been the most explosive scorer of the bunch. A 6-5 gunner, Farmer has connected on 52 percent of his 3-pointers (13-25).

In Wednesday’s 100-95 loss to Washington, Farmer nearly brought the Spurs back from a double-digit deficit with four second-half 3-pointers.

Hairston hasn’t been as singularly prolific as Farmer, but he has been a better defender — which never hurts a player trying to make the Spurs. A rookie from Oregon acquired in a draft-day trade with Phoenix, Hairston has averaged 5.3 points and 4.5 rebounds in six preseason games.

There is some pressure for Hairston to make the most of his shot in San Antonio. The player the Spurs dealt for him, Slovenian point guard Goran Dragic, appears poised to make the Suns’ roster.

“All you can do is ask for a chance,” Hairston said. “That’s what coach Pop has given me — a great opportunity. I think I’ve done some good things with it.”

So have many of the non-roster invitees the Spurs brought in this fall. That’s what has made Popovich’s job so difficult.

Standing in the locker room made emptier by three Wednesday night, Tolliver could have been speaking for any of three young players who remain.

“I don’t know what’s going to happen,” Tolliver said. “But hopefully everything works in my favor.”

THE FINAL THREE
Here is a glance at the three players vying for the final two slots on the Spurs’ roster before Monday’s cut deadline:

ANTHONY TOLLIVER
6-foot-8, Forward
Age: 23
College: Creighton (2007)
NBA experience: None
Preseason stats: 7.7 ppg, 5.2 rpg in 20.5 minutes; shooting 32.1 percent

MALIK HAIRSTON
6-foot-6, Guard/Forward
Age: 21
College: Oregon (2008)
NBA experience: None
Preseason stats: 5.3 ppg, 4.5 rpg in 21.5 minutes; seven blocks

DESMON FARMER
6-foot-5, Guard
Age: 27
College: USC (2004)
NBA experience: Eight games with Seattle in 2006-07
Preseason stats: 9.2 ppg in 18 minutes; 13 of 25 from 3-point

[ducks]

just make vaugh a coach

[mystargtr34]

Keep Vaughan, ship Bonner, sign all three.

That would be the ideal case now.

What i can see happening is Hairston being sent to the D-League, then Steve Kerr making room for Hairston.

And for what its worth, Dragic hasnt been that great at all for the Suns.

[tp2021]

After their latest round of dismissals, the Spurs are down to two seats, with three players still standing and the music about to stop.I wonder how long it took for him to come up with that one.

[tp2021]

It's dumb to compare Dragic with Malik. The Spurs never wanted Dragic. Essentially, they could have picked Malik straight-up, but instead they got a good future pick, cash, and THEN Hairston as well. It didn't matter who the player was that they picked for someone else at that point.

[timvp]

“There’s nobody here that’s going to beat out Bruce Bowen for the (small forward) spot or Tony Parker at the point,” Popovich said. “But every team has got a plan for the future, and wants to bring in guys that can develop and hopefully take over at some point.”That quote sounds like a pro-Hairston quote.

[Ice009]

Man Farmer is shooting 52% from three point range. That is great in any league, anywhere, any time. Tolliver's percentage is putrid. Horry can outdo that right now.

Malik is rebounding, playing defense, blocking shots and bringing an all around game.

Tolliver so far is a Matt Bonner clone with better bball IQ and hustle.

[Ice009]

That quote sounds like a pro-Hairston quote.

I was about to say that TiMVP, but you always beat us to it ;).

If they're talking about the future, it sounds like they're leaning towards Malik.

Just cut Bonner or Vaughn. PLEASE.

[tp2021]

That quote sounds like a pro-Hairston quote.

I sure hope so.

[ducks]

That quote sounds like a pro-Hairston quote.

I take hairson
he is the youngest most upside

[jcrod]

That quote sounds like a pro-Hairston quote.

I believe so, and it should go to him if Vaughn and Bonner stay aboard. He's six years younger, better defender, better rebounder, more size, and more athletic. Same with Tolliver, even though he hasn't shot lights out, he his young and has potential.

Farmer has basically hit his peak. He isn't replacing anybody.

[The Truth #6]

Everyone agrees that Hairston has more potential or upside than Farmer. I'm not sure if I completely agree.

I would say Hairston has a better all around game and does the 'little things' better. Farmer, however, really only does on thing, which is hit shots, but in my mind, for this team, that's always been a BIG thing.

I don't think we can keep filling the team with role players who only do little things and feed off everyone else. We need players who can occasionally step up and take over a game. I'm not sure if Farmer can do that but those 3 threes he hit last game seemed quite impressive to me. Yes, it was only pre-season but to Farmer, who is fighting for his career, that may as well have been the playoffs.

The potential to hit big, clutch shots can be just as important as doing lots of little things well.

[ducks]

I take hairson and farmer

farmer is needed for scoring only

or you keep all three and cut vaugh (make him coach) or put booner on waivers

[Obstructed_View]

That quote sounds like a pro-Hairston quote.

It also sounds like a pro-Gist quote. :)

After having some time to sleep on it, I just don't see any way Hairston doesn't make the team. I'm having a hard time seeing how Farmer doesn't warrant a shot if Pop really believes that the Spurs need someone that can score the basketball. He doesn't need a lights out three point shooter, he needs someone that can put points on the board, and Farmer can do that. If the Spurs have a problem at Bonner's position, there's not anyone on the radar that's going to be able to step in. I know I'm raging against the dying of the light, but I just can't wrap my pea brain around the idea that Tolliver is actually Pop's number one choice.

[Obstructed_View]

I take hairson and farmer

farmer is needed for scoring only

or you keep all three and cut vaugh (make him coach) or put booner on waivers

The Spurs are going to eat three million dollars and just get rid...

Shit, why am I replying to ducks?

booner :lol

[Obstructed_View]

It's dumb to compare Dragic with Malik. The Spurs never wanted Dragic. Essentially, they could have picked Malik straight-up, but instead they got a good future pick, cash, and THEN Hairston as well. It didn't matter who the player was that they picked for someone else at that point.

It shocks me how few people understand that teams can't trade picks. As though the Mavericks ever would have picked Robert Traylor for themselves.

[Ice009]

Everyone agrees that Hairston has more potential or upside than Farmer. I'm not sure if I completely agree.

I would say Hairston has a better all around game and does the 'little things' better. Farmer, however, really only does on thing, which is hit shots, but in my mind, for this team, that's always been a BIG thing.

I don't think we can keep filling the team with role players who only do little things and feed off everyone else. We need players who can occasionally step up and take over a game. I'm not sure if Farmer can do that but those 3 threes he hit last game seemed quite impressive to me. Yes, it was only pre-season but to Farmer, who is fighting for his career, that may as well have been the playoffs.

The potential to hit big, clutch shots can be just as important as doing lots of little things well.

You're right we seriously lack guys that can fill up the scoreboard quickly.

Even though Farmer does only one thing well, we need that one thing he does well.

Fuck it, I'm saying it go with Farmer and Hairston. Forget about Tolliver. Tolliver hasn't shown me anything really. The only reason I went with it is because I thought he's a lock. Well, I say unlock him if you have to dump either Farmer or Hairston to make room for him.

Like Obstructed_view said I just can't believe Tolliver is Pop's number one choice. I say dump him, Bonner or Vaughn. Keep Farmer and Hairston.

Farmer's fighting for a spot on the team and he's shooting 52% from three point range. Tolliver is fighting for a spot on the team and he's shooting 23%. Did Michael Finley even have a percentage that low when he was in a bad slump? That's really awful shooting from someone who is supposed to be a deadly three point shooter.

[ducks]

The Spurs are going to eat three million dollars and just get rid...

Shit, why am I replying to ducks?

booner :lol

spurs paid how much
to let steve smith SIT ON THE BENCH

[Ice009]

I've got another analogy, but I can't take credit the idea as I got it from somewhere else. I should have though of this myself though as I was a big RAMS fan.

You guys remember Kurt Warner back when he first played for the Rams? He was 27 years old, bagging groceries then someone was injured and he got his chance to play for the Rams and went on one of the greatest 3 year runs in NFL history. The thing is Kurt had the skills before, he was lighting up the minor leagues, but why wasn't he given the chance? Is it because he was a "no name" player?

Now Farmer has been lighting up the minor leagues too for a few seasons. Why not give him a shot to see if he can do it in the big league? 27 is not too old to get started.

[Manufan909]

Fuck, why couldn't Pop keep Gist!?! I'd take him over any of these three. That makes no sense, what if he realizes just like Splitter, that the money's just too good to pass up over in Europe. Plus, Italian chicks are FINE.

[Obstructed_View]

Fuck, why couldn't Pop keep Gist!?! I'd take him over any of these three. That makes no sense, what if he realizes just like Splitter, that the money's just too good to pass up over in Europe. Plus, Italian chicks are FINE.

At least the Spurs have a chance of getting Gist back on the team. If Hairston or Farmer gets cut they're going to be on an NBA roster somewhere.

[tomtom]

It's a shame Farmer and Hairston are both guards cus they are way better than Tolliver is...

[Ice009]

I think if Gist could shoot the ball he'd be on the team right now. I'd say they want him to work on his shooting. Of course they've got someone shooting the ball great, but it looks like they wanna take someone like Tolliver who hasn't hit shit in the preseason while sending away a guy like Gist for being an average shooter. lol.

Gist probably would have out rebounded, out hustled, out shot Tolliver if he got to play in the preseason. Weird stuff from the Spurs FO.

[SenorSpur]

I would say Hairston has a better all around game and does the 'little things' better. Farmer, however, really only does on thing, which is hit shots, but in my mind, for this team, that's always been a BIG thing.

I know, but that's what makes me skeptical about Farmer. He is, without question, an accomplished scorer. However, I don't see him taking over games or even earning "crunch time" minutes, so long as the Big Three are intact and Bruce is still doing his thing. Besides, Farmer has been trying to break into the league since '04. At this point, I don't see Farmer developing into a decent defender, focusing on rebounding and ball movement. For now, he is what he is. All that said, means Hairston has the upside edge and could turn out to be the better player.



We need players who can occasionally step up and take over a game..

Don't see that happening



The potential to hit big, clutch shots can be just as important as doing lots of little things well.

Agreed.



I don't think we can keep filling the team with role players who only do little things and feed off everyone else. .

Maybe, but we also cannot keep going back in the draft and selecting the same positional player over and over, year after year. The Spurs have tried, abeit unsuccessfully, to identify a young swingman for a couple of years now. Now that they've found one in Hairston, who seemingly has some of the tools and talen they've been looking for, they can ill-afford to cut him loose.

[anakha]

If the Spurs are in a state where they need instant offense from their 14th-15th man, they shouldn't be considered as contenders.

Which, by most analysts' estimates, isn't really the case.

As such, if it came down to Hairston or Farmer, I'd go with Hairston.

[Slippy]

“We spend a lot of time discussing, arguing, going back and forth, projecting the future,” he said.


Thinking why Pop wants Tolliver to work. A shooting big who's competent down low at 23 offers a lot of room to grow. Going from his college days to the kind of player he's now. He's already shown some positive signs of wanting to improve and grow as a player. With Horry gone and Bonner his only real competition there is a role to be filled.

Projecting his future would factor in small ball situations . Same would apply to Hairston.

[Obstructed_View]

I know, but that's what makes me skeptical about Farmer. He is, without question, an accomplished scorer. However, I don't see him taking over games or even earning "crunch time" minutes, so long as the Big Three are intact and Bruce is still doing his thing.

The way I see it, the Spurs go into offensive dry spells. They just need a guy who can go into the game and make a couple of baskets until the team gets going again. It's been a problem for the Spurs for a long time. Guys like Antoine Carr and Doc Rivers were great at being able to get the team back into rhythm on the offensive end.

Farmer is no more of a defensive liability than Finley is or Barry was, so I don't see the harm in having him earn some opportunities. Manu's the 2 on the floor in crunch time anyway.

[timtonymanu]

i wish we didnt have bonner and vaughn so we could sign all three guys.

[Bruno]

Yesterday was the deadline to cut players for free. Now if a player with a fully non guaranteed contract (like Farmer and likely Hairston) is waived, he will cost at least one day of his salary to his team.

Spurs have decided to spend a few $k to postponed the last cut. It likely means two things :
- The choice isn't an easy one to do.
- Today's game against Miami will be damn important for them.

And every time you compare Farmer to Hairston, don't forget that he is 6 years older and that he has 4 professional years with NBA, D-League, overseas and training camp experience.

[Ice009]

Thinking why Pop wants Tolliver to work. A shooting big who's competent down low at 23 offers a lot of room to grow. Going from his college days to the kind of player he's now. He's already shown some positive signs of wanting to improve and grow as a player. With Horry gone and Bonner his only real competition there is a role to be filled.

Projecting his future would factor in small ball situations . Same would apply to Hairston.


How about the Spurs dump Vaughn and Bonner and sign Farmer, Hairston, Tolliver and the man called Robert Horry. By resigning Robert Horry you get that BBall IQ back that you lost by cutting Vaughn and a superior mentor to Tolliver.

[benefactor]

Yesterday was the deadline to cut players for free. Now if a player with a fully non guaranteed contract (like Farmer and likely Hairston) is waived, he will cost at least one day of his salary to his team.

Spurs have decided to spend a few $k to postponed the last cut. It likely means two things :
- The choice isn't an easy one to do.
- Today's game against Miami will be damn important for them.

And every time you compare Farmer to Hairston, don't forget that he is 6 years older and that he has 4 professional years with NBA, D-League, overseas and training camp experience.
This is an important statement. As SenorSpur said earlier in the thread, he probably is what he is right now. He just doesn't feel like a system player and and being 27 years old makes one wonder how much more development is there. But the choice is still tough because you weigh that against his ability to provide an offensive lift while Manu is out. Again...I'm glad I am not the coach.

[tav1]

That quote sounds like a pro-Hairston quote.

That was my initial reaction because Hairston is younger and has a higher ceiling. However, I reminded myself that Pop has thought of Udoka and Mason as young guys for the future, too. Therefore, it's difficult to read too much into it.

[tav1]

How about the Spurs dump Vaughn and Bonner and sign Farmer, Hairston, Tolliver and the man called Robert Horry. By resigning Robert Horry you get that BBall IQ back that you lost by cutting Vaughn and a superior mentor to Tolliver.

Whose backyard are they going to dump them in? In other words, who would want Bonner and Vaughn, not who could the Spurs give them to. It's not easy. Assume it doesn't happen.

[MoSpur]

If it were me picking, I'd take Tolliver and Hairston

[SenorSpur]

The way I see it, the Spurs go into offensive dry spells. They just need a guy who can go into the game and make a couple of baskets until the team gets going again. It's been a problem for the Spurs for a long time. Guys like Antoine Carr and Doc Rivers were great at being able to get the team back into rhythm on the offensive end.

Farmer is no more of a defensive liability than Finley is or Barry was, so I don't see the harm in having him earn some opportunities. Manu's the 2 on the floor in crunch time anyway.

Understand your point and the arguments of others who are lobbying for Farmer. They make perfect sense. Actually, I don't think the Spurs can go wrong with either. I wish they could keep them both.

My concern with Farmer is once Ginobili comes back and with the addition of Mason, who will obviously play ahead of him, how much PT would Farmer realistically get? Would he rendered irrevelant? Since he's a D-League veteran, he's probably not going to develop much more there. And it would be a waste to have him at the end of the bench.

Hairston, on the other hand, has more skills in his tool belt. Personally, I don't buy the scenario that Hairston couldn't contribute this season. Because of his versatility, I could see him getting spot time at the SG/SF spot . Even if he doesn't, his time wouldn't be a waste as he could be sent to the D-League and called up at Pop's discretion.

Ever since the departure of SJAX, the Spurs have continuously tried to patch the wing position with a collection of veteran FAs, most of which have spurned their advances. A route that is very expensive. Or they've taken fliers on a collection of late round draftees and unproven youngsters (Marcus Williams, James White, Bobby Jones, Jeremy Richardson), all of whom have not panned out, for one reason or another. A route that is very risky.

The point is if Hairston is talented enough and even closely resembles the type of player that fits the Spurs mold and culture, they can ill-afford to jettison him. Thereby allowing another team to snatch him up. In fact, they would be damn fools if they allowed that to happen.

Whoever the Spurs elect to go with at that spot will likely be at the end of the bench anyway. At least with Hairston, he's far more versatile and could potentially solve the need for a long-term answer at the backup SG/SF spot. If the Spurs plan on remaining in contention through the waning years of the Duncan era, they can't keep up this habit of forfeiting young, talented players, in favor of the over-the-hill veteran. They've got to commit to developing the next core of players "on the fly". They've started the process with Hill. They've got to do the same at Bowen's spot. Hairston seems to fit that need. After all, they're not going to rebuild. They have to reload.

[SenorSpur]

This is an important statement. As SenorSpur said earlier in the thread, he probably is what he is right now. He just doesn't feel like a system player and and being 27 years old makes one wonder how much more development is there. But the choice is still tough because you weigh that against his ability to provide an offensive lift while Manu is out. Again...I'm glad I am not the coach.

I was thinking the same thing. I truly believe Farmer may have hit his ceiling. He needs regular court time. Something he'll probably not get here.


You said it best. It's a tough choice. I'm glad I don't have to make the call.

[Bender]

The way I see it, the Spurs go into offensive dry spells. They just need a guy who can go into the game and make a couple of baskets until the team gets going again. It's been a problem for the Spurs for a long time.yes, if everyone on the spurs outside of the big 3 only puts up a few ppg, we will be having a bunch of 80-point games. I don't see what's wrong with having a new scorer on the team, instead of every new guy being a "well-rounded player, who doesn't score much".

[xtremesteven33]

My (realistic) Spurs plan wish list:

-Cut Tolliver
-Sign Farmer and Hairston
-Sign Horry in midseason to fill big men gap
-Make a run at Mutombo a (FA) to hopefully sign him
-SOMEHOW either cut bonner/Vaughn or trade them

[SenorSpur]

My (realistic) Spurs plan wish list:

-Cut Tolliver
-Sign Farmer and Hairston
-Sign Horry in midseason to fill big men gap
-Make a run at Mutombo a (FA) to hopefully sign him
-SOMEHOW either cut bonner/Vaughn or trade them

Not again. Did we not see enough of Horry last year to know to that he had nothing left?

I'd rather take my chances on Tolliver.

[xtremesteven33]

Not again. Did we not see enough of Horry last year to know to that he had nothing left?

I'd rather take my chances on Tolliver.



No way dude. RIGHT NOW, i dont think Tolliver has shown any signs of being a good player. Horry at least will bring playoff savy and great basketball IQ. Plus he was injured most of last year and i figure it was hard for him to get into rythym come playoff time. No way would i pick Tolliver over Horry right now.

[HarlemHeat37]

Horry is done, bro..I hoped for him to return to form all year long, but he just looked terrible in the playoffs..his shots weren't even close most of the time..he's still pretty good defensively, but we need to go in another direction..

[SenorSpur]

No way dude. RIGHT NOW, i dont think Tolliver has shown any signs of being a good player. Horry at least will bring playoff savy and great basketball IQ. Plus he was injured most of last year and i figure it was hard for him to get into rythym come playoff time. No way would i pick Tolliver over Horry right now.

You can use the injury card all you want. What do you think happens to OLD players? They get injured. Sorry dude. Horry is done. The injury was just an excuse. Yet it couldn't make up for the fact that he looked the part of a player who was at the end. Slow on to loose balls, late on rotations, couldn't stay in front of his man, stroke was off. Time is up. It happens to every player. Basketball IQ aint enough.

[xtremesteven33]

You can use the injury card all you want. What do you think happens to OLD players? They get injured. Sorry dude. Horry is done. The injury was just an excuse. Yet it couldn't make up for the fact that he looked the part of a player who was at the end. Slow on to loose balls, late on rotations, couldn't stay in front of his man, stroke was off. Time is up. It happens to every player. Basketball IQ aint enough.



Yea but he came up big in game 7....something i know tolliver wouldnt do.

[dbestpro]

If it is an issue of being able to provide something for the future I'd cut all three. Hairston and Tolliver are not going to develop into major players. At their best their level of player can be signed in any off season now and in the future. Farmer is too old to make a difference in the future. Farmer could provide a spark right now. For that reason alone I would keep Farmer. It really doesn't matter between Hairston and Tolliver. Maybe you cut Hairston and let Austin sign him as a free agent.

[Spurs Brazil]

“There’s nobody here that’s going to beat out Bruce Bowen for the (small forward) spot or Tony Parker at the point,” Popovich said. “But every team has got a plan for the future, and wants to bring in guys that can develop and hopefully take over at some point.”

I think Malik is ahead now. Tonight's game will be key for them. If they play normal I expect Pop to keep Malik after that quote

[The Truth #6]

I keep questioning why we're trying to fill Horry's shoes, just like we keep trying to find the next Bowen. Yeah, it would be great if they were out there but they're not and we're limiting our choices if we stick too strictly to a formula like this. Bowen and Horry are exceptional, unique talents. We have to find players who can contribute in a legitimate way, not roll the dice on guys who might be able to be groomed into a model we've created. I'm beginning to wonder if this why we're so slow to refresh the team with younger talent.

Knowing what know now, and really, what we knew two years ago, there is no way anyone can honestly believe Bonner would fill Horry's shoes, and to bring it up to date, how can we expect Tolliver to fill his shoes either? There was only one Horry. In the process we let a superior player like Gist get sent off to Europe so we could find 'the real' Horry replacement. Compared to Tolliver (and Bonner) Gist was a better defender, better rebounder, had a better nose for the ball, was more athletic, and in general, was someone we should have kept but we're too caught up finding the replacement to Horry's replacement, rather than realizing that this mode of thought is completely flawed.

The sad thing is that with Gist gone we probably could use Tolliver because Bonner doesn't seem up to the challenge this year. He's already shrinking.

Hairston could have a better NBA career than Farmer in the long run but I don't think long term is the time frame this current team can consider. We needed points last year and we'll need them even more this year. It's a priority and I realize Pop probably wouldn't play Farmer much but there will be times when it would be worth getting him off the bench to see if he can help us when we go through some of our droughts.

Some have said Hairston and Farmer would be our 14th and 15th players if they were on the team. In my opinion, regarding our wings there hasn't been that much separation between Finley, Mason, Hairston, and Farmer, with Udoka being only slightly better. Sure, Pop might treat them as last options, and yes, their inexperience is something to be concerned about, but who contributes for us this year from the wing is wide open in my opinion.

[PerforatedNeckline]

just a little point about Tolliver...
people keep pointing to his rotten shooting percentage during the pre-season, but he was absolutely unconscious during summer league...
so i think it's more of a question of: which one is the fluke and which one is the real deal? the spurs have seen that he's CAPABLE of lighting it up over a somewhat extended stretch, so the fact that he isn't RIGHT NOW probably doesn't concern them too much, especially if he's showing willingness to rebound, defend, scrap for loose balls, and a nice ability to finish around the rim.

[The Truth #6]

The short followup to my rant is that assuming Pop is still trying to find the next player to fill Bowen's shoes, then he most likely will choose Hairston to be his Cinderella.

The SJax archetype has not been one the FO has actively tried to pursue, which is why Farmer will be gone.

However, there is an irony at work with Farmer. People keep saying that he's too old to change and that he's bounced around the league too long. Since when did bouncing around the league stop being the sort of litmus test that appeals to Pop. Under what has been the standard operating procedure, one would think that Farmer would have the advantage in that category. However, I realize that Famer's ability to shoot the ball and not being signed already somehow, paradoxically, makes it seem like something is wrong with him.

[SenorSpur]

Knowing what know now, and really, what we knew two years ago, there is no way anyone can honestly believe Bonner would fill Horry's shoes, and to bring it up to date, how can we expect Tolliver to fill his shoes either? There was only one Horry. In the process we let a superior player like Gist get sent off to Europe so we could find 'the real' Horry replacement. Compared to Tolliver (and Bonner) Gist was a better defender, better rebounder, had a better nose for the ball, was more athletic, and in general, was someone we should have kept but we're too caught up finding the replacement to Horry's replacement, rather than realizing that this mode of thought is completely flawed. .

That's probably the best point of this entire thread. :toast


The sad thing is that with Gist gone we probably could use Tolliver because Bonner doesn't seem up to the challenge this year. He's already shrinking..

I admit that I was one who wanted to see what Bonner could do with more extensive minutes. Looks like he's no better than he was last year or the year before. Makes me wonder what the FO was thinking when they elected to re-up him. I would've rather had Gist and Tolliver on the roster.


Some have said Hairston and Farmer would be our 14th and 15th players if they were on the team. In my opinion, regarding our wings there hasn't been that much separation between Finley, Mason, Hairston, and Farmer, with Udoka being only slightly better. Sure, Pop might treat them as last options, and yes, their inexperience is something to be concerned about, but who contributes for us this year from the wing is wide open in my opinion.

For all we know, Hairston could be a better all-around player than any of the wing players on this roster. We just don't know. However, let's not be quick to judge the guy before he's had a chance to get on the floor. Would Houston have known about Carl Landry, also a 2nd round pick, had they simply banished him to the bench or rushed to judgement and cut the guy? The only way these guys get appreciably better is with practice and playing time. We'll never replenish the roster if we throw out everyone we draft before seeing if they can flourish.

[xtremesteven33]

For all we know, Hairston could be a better all-around player than any of the wing players on this roster. We just don't know. However, let's not be quick to judge the guy before he's had a chance to get on the floor. Would Houston have known about Carl Landry had they simply banished him to the bench or rushed to judgement and cut the guy? The only way these guys get appreciably better is with practice and playing time. We'll never replenish the roster if we throw out everyone we draft before seeing if they can flourish.


I agree

[Obstructed_View]

Understand your point and the arguments of others who are lobbying for Farmer. They make perfect sense. Actually, I don't think the Spurs can go wrong with either. I wish they could keep them both.

My concern with Farmer is once Ginobili comes back and with the addition of Mason, who will obviously play ahead of him, how much PT would Farmer realistically get? Would he rendered irrevelant? Since he's a D-League veteran, he's probably not going to develop much more there. And it would be a waste to have him at the end of the bench.

Hairston, on the other hand, has more skills in his tool belt. Personally, I don't buy the scenario that Hairston couldn't contribute this season. Because of his versatility, I could see him getting spot time at the SG/SF spot . Even if he doesn't, his time wouldn't be a waste as he could be sent to the D-League and called up at Pop's discretion.

Ever since the departure of SJAX, the Spurs have continuously tried to patch the wing position with a collection of veteran FAs, most of which have spurned their advances. A route that is very expensive. Or they've taken fliers on a collection of late round draftees and unproven youngsters (Marcus Williams, James White, Bobby Jones, Jeremy Richardson), all of whom have not panned out, for one reason or another. A route that is very risky.

The point is if Hairston is talented enough and even closely resembles the type of player that fits the Spurs mold and culture, they can ill-afford to jettison him. Thereby allowing another team to snatch him up. In fact, they would be damn fools if they allowed that to happen.

Whoever the Spurs elect to go with at that spot will likely be at the end of the bench anyway. At least with Hairston, he's far more versatile and could potentially solve the need for a long-term answer at the backup SG/SF spot. If the Spurs plan on remaining in contention through the waning years of the Duncan era, they can't keep up this habit of forfeiting young, talented players, in favor of the over-the-hill veteran. They've got to commit to developing the next core of players "on the fly". They've started the process with Hill. They've got to do the same at Bowen's spot. Hairston seems to fit that need. After all, they're not going to rebuild. They have to reload.
Well put. I'd like to see the Spurs keep all the young guys. Hell, I thought Green looked good, but there are just too many guys under contract right now. Hopefully Mason, Udoka and Bonner get out of suck mode by the regular season so we don't miss the young guys so much.

When one considers, for example, the defense he played on Teyshaun Prince, I don't think there's any way Hairston doesn't make this team. If there's a choice to be made, it's between Farmer and Tolliver. I have a feeling Pop's going to ratchet up the pressure on all three guys tonight, and unless Hairston just completely regresses, the final job is between Farmer and Tolliver, and Farmer probably has to have the game of his life to get the spot.

If Hairston makes the roster and starts to get fat (my only actual concern about him), Spurs fans will never forgive him for taking a spot away from one of the other two.

[Obstructed_View]

For all we know, Hairston could be a better all-around player than any of the wing players on this roster. We just don't know. However, let's not be quick to judge the guy before he's had a chance to get on the floor. Would Houston have known about Carl Landry, also a 2nd round pick, had they simply banished him to the bench or rushed to judgement and cut the guy? The only way these guys get appreciably better is with practice and playing time. We'll never replenish the roster if we throw out everyone we draft before seeing if they can flourish.

Excellent example. Considering the contributions of well-traveled guys like Bruce Bowen and Ime Udoka, I'm not sure why Spurs fans would think that someone isn't potentially valuable just because they weren't instantly successful in the NBA. That applies more to Tolliver and Farmer than it does Hairston, but it's still a good point.

[Tully365]

Knowing what know now, and really, what we knew two years ago, there is no way anyone can honestly believe Bonner would fill Horry's shoes, and to bring it up to date, how can we expect Tolliver to fill his shoes either? There was only one Horry. In the process we let a superior player like Gist get sent off to Europe so we could find 'the real' Horry replacement. Compared to Tolliver (and Bonner) Gist was a better defender, better rebounder, had a better nose for the ball, was more athletic, and in general, was someone we should have kept but we're too caught up finding the replacement to Horry's replacement, rather than realizing that this mode of thought is completely flawed.

The sad thing is that with Gist gone we probably could use Tolliver because Bonner doesn't seem up to the challenge this year. He's already shrinking.


Does anyone know the full story on why Gist so quickly signed in Europe, given how well he played in the Summer League? Was it more from the Spurs' side, wanting him to develop, or was it more of a money issue coming from Gist and his agent? i've never heard the full story on this.

[ChumpDumper]

My thinking about Gist is the Spurs do want him to develop in Europe for one season on someone else's dime, then they could sign him to a two-year deal so there wouldn't be the huge cap hit in the summer of 2010 had he signed a two year deal starting this season.

[SenorSpur]

When one considers, for example, the defense he played on Teyshaun Prince, I don't think there's any way Hairston doesn't make this team.

Very interesting. Since I didn't see the game, can you describe, in more detail, exactly what Hairston did defensively against Prince that caught your eye?

[The Truth #6]

I recall Hairston blocked Prince's shot and it wasn't from the weak side, Malik was guarding him on the block, Prince tried a turnaround, and Malik pretty much blocked it before it even left Prince's hand. Prince has a longer reach than Malik, so it was fairly impressive.

That's one thing I remember.

[The Truth #6]

My thinking about Gist is the Spurs do want him to develop in Europe for one season on someone else's dime, then they could sign him to a two-year deal so there wouldn't be the huge cap hit in the summer of 2010 had he signed a two year deal starting this season.

But would that hit on the cap be any different than signing Tolliver this year?

[ChumpDumper]

But would that hit on the cap be any different than signing Tolliver this year?They don't have any draft rights for Tolliver, so they can't put him off. Have they signed him for two seasons?

[SenorSpur]

I recall Hairston blocked Prince's shot and it wasn't from the weak side, Malik was guarding him on the block, Prince tried a turnaround, and Malik pretty much blocked it before it even left Prince's hand. Prince has a longer reach than Malik, so it was fairly impressive.

That's one thing I remember.

Good stuff~ (pun intended) :lol

[benefactor]

Does anyone know the full story on why Gist so quickly signed in Europe, given how well he played in the Summer League? Was it more from the Spurs' side, wanting him to develop, or was it more of a money issue coming from Gist and his agent? i've never heard the full story on this.
It seems like it has just been assumed. Bruno posted something about it a while back not long after it happened, but there was no confirmation from the Spurs FO that this was the plan. Personally, it scares the hell out of me. With the Euro teams able to throw big cash around and us only able to offer a rookie scale contract I question the idea of letting a young player develop in a place with so much financial temptation.

[Obstructed_View]

I recall Hairston blocked Prince's shot and it wasn't from the weak side, Malik was guarding him on the block, Prince tried a turnaround, and Malik pretty much blocked it before it even left Prince's hand. Prince has a longer reach than Malik, so it was fairly impressive.

That's one thing I remember.

That's the one play that sticks in my mind. I came into that game with concerns about Hairston. Prince is one of the non-Spurs guys that I really like. He's a sneaky scorer, he's a good athlete, and he has really long arms. Hairston just went to work on him and that stuff impressed the shit out of me. I haven't seen anything from Hairston's defense since then to change my mind.

I think I misspelled Prince's first name. :lol

[Obstructed_View]

It seems like it has just been assumed. Bruno posted something about it a while back not long after it happened, but there was no confirmation from the Spurs FO that this was the plan. Personally, it scares the hell out of me. With the Euro teams able to throw big cash around and us only able to offer a rookie scale contract I question the idea of letting a young player develop in a place with so much financial temptation.

I'm not sure, but I think the rookie scale only applies to first round picks, right? I think the Spurs can pay Gist anything they want. If they had picked Splitter in the second round he'd probably be here now.

[tp2021]

I'm not sure, but I think the rookie scale only applies to first round picks, right? I think the Spurs can pay Gist anything they want. If they had picked Splitter in the second round he'd probably be here now.

Do you think he would have lasted 5 more spots if they passed on him with their first pick? He was #28, And Marcus Williams was #33...

[benefactor]

I'm not sure, but I think the rookie scale only applies to first round picks, right? I think the Spurs can pay Gist anything they want. If they had picked Splitter in the second round he'd probably be here now.
You may be right. I can't seem to find anything on picks in later rounds. It still worries me though. A team over there could easily throw 6 or 7 million a year at him if he plays well. There is no way we pay that much to bring him back.

[Obstructed_View]

Do you think he would have lasted 5 more spots if they passed on him with their first pick? He was #28, And Marcus Williams was #33...

I honestly can't remember. He was projected as a top ten pick the year before, and I don't know how far he was going to fall. There's probably some discussion about it somewhere that you can find with a search. The Spurs could have picked up an extra second round pick to drop out of the first round and grab him. If Splitter had just done what he said he was going to do he'd have been here, as well, so it's not all on the Spurs.

[Obstructed_View]

You may be right. I can't seem to find anything on picks in later rounds. It still worries me though. A team over there could easily throw 6 or 7 million a year at him if he plays well. There is no way we pay that much to bring him back.

If Gist is happy being a ham and egger in the JV leagues, then there's not much anyone can do. It'll certainly give us a lot to talk about, especially if Tolilver makes this team and doesn't pan out.

[Slippy]

How about the Spurs dump Vaughn and Bonner and sign Farmer, Hairston, Tolliver and the man called Robert Horry. By resigning Robert Horry you get that BBall IQ back that you lost by cutting Vaughn and a superior mentor to Tolliver.

Interesting scenario just not much chance of it happening for the reasons already stated by others. Spurs made the right choice in not bringing Horry back.

[Ice009]

Interesting scenario just not much chance of it happening for the reasons already stated by others. Spurs made the right choice in not bringing Horry back.

That's a bad post by me. Horry wouldn't help at all these days. I just don't like Bonner that much and was willing to take anyone instead of him.

If Bonner doesn't get it together hopefully the Spurs can trade him for player that will fit into our team better.

[Obstructed_View]

Hopefully Bonner uses the positive things he's done in the preseason as a springboard for the year. If he just toughens up and does his job he'll earn some trust from Pop.

[HarlemHeat37]

I just have the feeling that if we don't see both Malik and Farmer on the team, somebody is going to pick them up and we're going to regret it..