Late calls favoring Blazers

[Fabbs]

Did not record game, so can only comment on what i saw in realtime.
Looked like 5 very bogus calls late, all going against Spurs. One was a loose ball where Tony dove for it as did a Blazer. Tweet, Tony gets rung up and Rudy Fernadez gets sent to the line.

2. Timmy Dunks D'd up twice on Blazers driving the ball to the hoop. Looked like little or NO contact. Tweet. Rung up twice.

3. Dunks got a long rebound and held the ball up high waiting for a Spur to get open. Couple Blazers came over and tired to steal the ball, ended up attempting to mount Tim. Sure looked like a foul. Tweet. Jump ball.
Dunks was visibly upset.

Reactions? Anyone record. I know numb nutts Jon Barry was no help.

5. Oh yeah a 5th call. When Mason got rung up when the Blazers were inbounding. Great team D by Spurs, Roy caught the inbounds pass then fell out of bounds. Mason gets rung up for an alleged push. Mason never pushed Roy.

[urunobili]

the league should review the Roy flop and fine him according to the new rules...

[Obstructed_View]

One was a loose ball where Tony dove for it as did a Blazer. Tweet, Tony gets rung up and Rudy Fernadez gets sent to the line.
Fernandez had position. It was a foul.


3. Dunks got a long rebound and held the ball up high waiting for a Spur to get open. Couple Blazers came over and tired to steal the ball, ended up attempting to mount Tim. Sure looked like a foul. Tweet. Jump ball.
Dunks was visibly upset.
Duncan got trapped and should have called timeout. He got wrapped up. How long was he supposed to stand there waiting for the officials to bail him out?


5. Oh yeah a 5th call. When Mason got rung up when the Blazers were inbounding. Great team D by Spurs, Roy caught the inbounds pass then fell out of bounds. Mason gets rung up for an alleged push. Mason never pushed Roy.
Mason pushed him in the back. He extended his arms, and it happened right in front of the officials. No way they don't call that. IIRC, Barbosa did the same thing to Parker in the playoffs.

[Thompson]

Mason pushed him in the back. He extended his arms, and it happened right in front of the officials. No way they don't call that. IIRC, Barbosa did the same thing to Parker in the playoffs.

I don't know about the others, but this one at least was a bad call. My friend had Tivo, and while Mason did have his hand touching Roy up to the edge of the court, he lowered it right as Roy jumped up to grab the ball. Roy then came straight down to land and then flung himself out of bounds; he was clearly not pushed.

One other foul we rewatched was the one they called on Finley after a Blazer missed a jumpshot near the free throw line and then fell backwards. Finley was claiming the Blazer kicked him; I didn't see Finley push against him either. I was lucky my friend had Tivo, because they never showed any #%$@ replays, they preferred to show us the riveting action of guys milling around waiting for a free throw attempt.

[TJastal]

Did not record game, so can only comment on what i saw in realtime.
Looked like 5 very bogus calls late, all going against Spurs. One was a loose ball where Tony dove for it as did a Blazer. Tweet, Tony gets rung up and Rudy Fernadez gets sent to the line.

2. Timmy Dunks D'd up twice on Blazers driving the ball to the hoop. Looked like little or NO contact. Tweet. Rung up twice.

3. Dunks got a long rebound and held the ball up high waiting for a Spur to get open. Couple Blazers came over and tired to steal the ball, ended up attempting to mount Tim. Sure looked like a foul. Tweet. Jump ball.
Dunks was visibly upset.

Reactions? Anyone record. I know numb nutts Jon Barry was no help.

5. Oh yeah a 5th call. When Mason got rung up when the Blazers were inbounding. Great team D by Spurs, Roy caught the inbounds pass then fell out of bounds. Mason gets rung up for an alleged push. Mason never pushed Roy.


My take on the reffing tonight, was the refs were sub-par but not as bad as the Violet Palmer / Bennet Salvatore combo.

I agreed with some of Fabbs' takes. Didn't see the Parker / Fernandez one, can't comment. I do think Duncan and especially Bonner got hit with flimsy cheap fouls that helped the blazers build their big lead in the first half, but it is about what I have come to expect from the zebras. At least it wasn't just jaw-dropping ridiculous like the Palmer / Salvatore duo was the other night.

I agree with you Duncan got fouled on that rebound, Prizbilla and someone else were basically mauling him soon as he caught the ball. At the very least they should have made the smaller guy on the blazers doing the jump-ball since they both were bear hugging him, but they allowed Prizbilla to do it and of course Duncan is upset and loses the jump. It's one of those calls refs will make 90% of the time, and 100.0% of the time if its a superstar. Last time I checked Duncan is a superstar. But, Duncan plays for the spurs, so that overrides. You can bet if it was Kobe or any scrub laker (even the lowliest scrub on their bench) they would have been awarded with the foul.

Mason did use his hands on Roy and pushed. Ever so slightly but it's not a smart play to do right in front of an official, and he caught Roy off balance with no leverage, so he fell out of bounds. It's the right call and Mason needs to learn if your going to use your hands on the defender don't get caught. Maybe Bruce Bowen can give him a lesson on that. :hat

I got one of my own - Parker's driving layup that one of the blazers (probably Aldridge) altered just as it hit the backboard, causing a miss. Should have been called a goaltend, though I suspect after Parker and Popovich hollered at em I think there was a make up foul call right after that. But still, 2 more points and the spurs win this game. Don't know how all 3 of em miss that, meh.

[kingkoopa]

I thought they let both teams play, especially in the first half. I saw a number of plays where they could have called a foul, but didn't.

[Obstructed_View]

I don't know about the others, but this one at least was a bad call. My friend had Tivo, and while Mason did have his hand touching Roy up to the edge of the court, he lowered it right as Roy jumped up to grab the ball. Roy then came straight down to land and then flung himself out of bounds; he was clearly not pushed.
I have PVR as well, and I watched the play several times. From the angle they had, Mason extended his arms right as Roy went out of bounds, and then Mason pulled his hands down quickly and made a "I didn't do anything" pose as the whistle blew. While it's possible from our angle that Mason didn't touch him, everything else about the play made it look so much like a push that you'd call that 10 out of 10 times. Remember also that the play wasn't away from the ball; the fact that there was an official within two feet of the play looking right at Mason and Roy suggests that he probably had the play correct.


One other foul we rewatched was the one they called on Finley after a Blazer missed a jumpshot near the free throw line and then fell backwards. Finley was claiming the Blazer kicked him; I didn't see Finley push against him either. I was lucky my friend had Tivo, because they never showed any #%$@ replays, they preferred to show us the riveting action of guys milling around waiting for a free throw attempt.
Yeah, I saw that one as well and re-watched it. Fin never touched him. That one hurt because Fin actually played good defense and the Spus needed the stop. I think it was at the end of the shot clock as well. Someone from the Spurs, I think either Bonner or Bowen, caught the guy's leg way after he let the shot go. Whoever it was was wrapped up with another Blazer player and had nothing to do with the play. I'm not sure how that's a foul, but the fact that they got Finley for it means they missed it. Finley didn't help his case by saying he got kicked; again, the two players never made contact with each other.

If anyone should be really angry at the officiating it should be Bonner. He got hosed. The refs got caught up calling BS illegal pick fouls on the Spurs there for a stretch. I thought we were back at the 2004 Olympics again.

I'd say that both teams were equally unhappy with the officiating in the game, because the Spurs got some gifts in the first half. Not as many as the Portland crowd would have you believe, but there were a few.

It's hard to get too wrapped up in the calls when the Spurs rebounded as badly as they did.

[DPG21920]

Why is there a thread started about whining about officials? This is why people hate the Spurs and their fans. Cry babies.

[TJastal]

Why is there a thread started about whining about officials? This is why people hate the Spurs and their fans. Cry babies.

There are threads evaluating the officiating on every other teams' forum. If you goto Lakersground.net after a laker loss I gaurantee there will be several.

Expect that there will be a thread evaluating the officiating after every game, good or bad. Fans have a right to critique the integrity of the officiating, since it directly impacts the games. Especially in lieu of the Tim Donaghy scandal, it is imperative to keep an eye on them.

[DPG21920]

There are threads evaluating the officiating on every other teams' forum. If you goto Lakersground.net after a laker loss I gaurantee there will be several.

Expect that there will be a thread evaluating the officiating after every game, good or bad. Fans have a right to critique the integrity of the officiating, since it directly impacts the games. Especially in lieu of the Tim Donaghy scandal, it is imperative to keep an eye on them.

Blah blah blah, cry, cry, cry. The officiating was fine last night. This is two losses, and two threads about the refs for each game. It is lame. The refs had nothing at all to do with the Spurs losses. Who cares if every team has fans that whine? The Spurs and their fans are generally regarded as the whiniest team across the league. That is the only thing I do not like about the Spurs. They complain to the officials too much and the fans follow suit.

[duncan228]

That is the only thing I do not like about the Spurs. They complain to the officials too much and the fans follow suit.

Duncan complaining to the officials? Say it ain't so. :lmao

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x282/duncan228/temp%20duncan/10-29-0815.jpg

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x282/duncan228/temp%20duncan/10-29-082.jpg

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x282/duncan228/5-23nofoul2.jpg

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x282/duncan228/palmsup.jpg

[DPG21920]

Duncan complaining to the officials? Say it ain't so. :lmao

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x282/duncan228/temp%20duncan/10-29-0815.jpg

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x282/duncan228/temp%20duncan/10-29-082.jpg

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x282/duncan228/5-23nofoul2.jpg

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x282/duncan228/palmsup.jpg

Exactly! You love Duncan more than anyone I know and I would bet all my vbookie money that even you get bothered when he complains too much.

[JamStone]

I don't think Mason pushed Roy, but with his hand on his back and arms extended and then pulling his hand back quickly to look innocent did not help his cause. It was probably a no call, but calls like that happen all the time. That's not the type of call that really turns a game either way.

[DPG21920]

Fans just like to whine and complain no matter what Jam. They can't except the fact that the Spurs lost on their on accord.

[angelbelow]

i didnt get that feeling with this game.

[duncan228]

Exactly! You love Duncan more than anyone I know and I would bet all my vbookie money that even you get bothered when he complains too much.

There are times I agree with him and times I wish he'd just take the frustration out in his game. He usually plays well when he's pissed.

I'm obviously biased, but there are times I think he doesn't get the calls that an elite player should.

Duncan's certainly not the only one in the league that complains, it can get old no matter who it is.

[DPG21920]

Look, the refs had nothing to do with the Spurs losing. Fans should be looking at their team, not the refs. The team is playing pretty well all things considered. Losing always overshadows good things and winning covers up mistakes, it is just the way things are. I for one, as an avid Spurs fan, saw nothing wrong over the course of the game.

[TJastal]

Blah blah blah, cry, cry, cry. The officiating was fine last night. This is two losses, and two threads about the refs for each game. It is lame. The refs had nothing at all to do with the Spurs losses. Who cares if every team has fans that whine? The Spurs and their fans are generally regarded as the whiniest team across the league. That is the only thing I do not like about the Spurs. They complain to the officials too much and the fans follow suit.

Dude

If you think the spurs are the whiniest team in the league and the two whole posts that were made evaluating the reffing put us at the top of the heap of whining, you need to check out the forums at lakersground.net when things aren't going well for the lakers.

That will give you a whole new perspective on whining. I think the whine thread after the game 2 finals loss against the celtics reached almost 1000 pages long. So STFU already.

[DPG21920]

Dude

If you think the spurs are the whiniest team in the league and the two whole posts that were made evaluating the reffing put us at the top of the heap of whining, you need to check out the forums at lakersground.net when things aren't going well for the lakers.

That will give you a whole new perspective on whining. I think the whine thread after the game 2 finals loss against the celtics reached almost 1000 pages long. So STFU already.

I didn't say I thought the Spurs were the whiniest team, I said THEY WERE WIDELY REGARDED AS THE WHINIEST TEAM. So keep whining and bitching and crying, it should get your post count up

[TJastal]

I didn't say I thought the Spurs were the whiniest team, I said THEY WERE WIDELY REGARDED AS THE WHINIEST TEAM. So keep whining and bitching and crying, it should get your post count up

"Spurs and their fans" ... is what I meant, genius.

And you just keep whining and bitching and crying about the whining bitching and crying, its amusing that you think 2 threads in 2 games makes us the kings of whining.

[DPG21920]

"Spurs and their fans" ... is what I meant, genius.

And you just keep whining and bitching and crying about the whining bitching and crying, its amusing that you think 2 threads in 2 games makes us the kings of whining.

I did not say that you were the kings of whining. I said it is lame that two losses in a row warrants two threads to bring up officiating. It does nothing, adds nothing and makes my point that the Spurs (along with other teams) have whiny fans. Every team has them, it is good that you are a part of the whiny crew that adds nothing, congrats!

The fact that everyone around the league (coaches, fans, announcers and players) think the Spurs whine a lot, does not reflect my opinion, but theirs. I think we do have whiny fans, I think our team does whine, but so does every team. That does not mean I have to like it, which I do not.

[Biernutz]

It's to early in the year to bitch about the officials. Let it rest. If the spurs had played better they would have had a big lead and would take the game out of the officials hands.
Play good = Win games!

[JamStone]

I'm offended. The Detroit Pistons are the whiniest team in the league. And, their fans are the whiniest fans in the league. Don't take that away from us too.

[DPG21920]

I'm offended. The Detroit Pistons are the whiniest team in the league. And, their fans are the whiniest fans in the league. Don't take that away from us too.

Ahhhhhhhhhhh!

[FromWayDowntown]

Did the Spurs trade for a bunch of Suns' fans this off-season?

[zepn]

There are billions of dollars at stake in the NBA. Every penny of it comes from the fans either directly or indirectly.

NBA referees have proven themselves to be criminal, biased, selfish, and incompetent on many occasions. Obviously no referee will ever be 100% perfect, but these guys, and this league, aren't even close.

Every NBA fan has the right, and possibly even the obligation, to hold the referees and the NBA as a whole accountable for their actions.

I myself am sick of the league's and some ignorant and lazy fans' casual acceptance of fouls/rules/interpetations being applied differently for star players, star teams, home teams, end of the game, playoff games, rookies, etc.

I am also sick of the much-loved ref-apologist theory "It's not the ref's fault - we should have played good enough to win (and beat the refs) and then bad calls don't matter". While this might be the frame of mind you want your players to have, it is complete bullshit as a logical argument, and there is absolutely no reason for anyone outside the team to wallow in that feces, or use it as some sort of false moral high-ground to "preach" to those who know better.

So if you don't want to hear fans bitch about bad calls then crawl back in your hole and pretend it doesn't happen. And don't read threads with titles such as "Late calls favoring Blazers". No one needs you to be their censor.

[FromWayDowntown]

I am also sick of the much-loved ref-apologist theory "It's not the ref's fault - we should have played good enough to win (and beat the refs) and then bad calls don't matter". While this might be the frame of mind you want your players to have, it is complete bullshit as a logical argument, and there is absolutely no reason for anyone outside the team to wallow in that feces, or use it as some sort of false moral high-ground to "preach" to those who know better.

If the Spurs hadn't given up umpteen million offensive boards last night and had held the Blazers to 2 fewer second chance points, they win without any regard to the officiating, no?

[zepn]

So as long as the Spurs win, you are perfectly fine with poor officiating. Nice.

[tlongII]

In my opinion the officiating was horribly in favor of the Spurs last night. Just thought I'd let you know...

[zepn]

Bad officiating is bad regardless of whom it helps.

[tlongII]

Bad officiating is bad regardless of whom it helps.

I agree.

[JamStone]

I thought the officiating in the Lakers-Blazers game was horribly in favor of the Blazers otherwise the Lakers would have won by 50.

[DPG21920]

Only one ref has been found guilty, so your argument sucks and so does this thread

[zepn]

If the Spurs hadn't given up umpteen million offensive boards last night and had held the Blazers to 2 fewer second chance points, they win without any regard to the officiating, no?

As close as this league is, especially during the playoffs when it matters most, it is absurd beyond reason to require any team to overcome their opponent AND biased/poor refereeing.

[FromWayDowntown]

So as long as the Spurs win, you are perfectly fine with poor officiating. Nice.

No, I think poor officiating sucks. I just won't ever believe that poor officiating changes the outcome of games. I agree that there were bad calls last night -- and I'll agree that the bad calls probably went disproportionately in favor of the Blazers. But I don't think the fact of the bad calls changed the outcome of the game; I don't think missed calls ever change the outcome of a game because there are too many variables over the course of 48 minutes. In last night's example, the Spurs' inability to corrall offensive boards gave the Blazers a bunch of 2nd chance opportunities, many of which they converted. The Spurs also turned it over almost twice as much as the Blazers did last night, and the Blazers converted those into a +13 in points off of turnovers.

The officiating might have been bad, but I'd argue that the inability to grab boards and take care of the ball were what cost the Spurs.

[DPG21920]

If the refereeing is poor/biased isn't it that way for the entire league? So all teams have the same chance of having calls go for or against them?

[zepn]

Only one ref has been found guilty, so your argument sucks and so does this thread

So you attempt to refute my argument by stipulating to it? pwned.

[zepn]

No, I think poor officiating sucks. I just won't ever believe that poor officiating changes the outcome of games. I agree that there were bad calls last night -- and I'll agree that the bad calls probably went disproportionately in favor of the Blazers. But I don't think the fact of the bad calls changed the outcome of the game; I don't think missed calls ever change the outcome of a game because there are too many variables over the course of 48 minutes. In last night's example, the Spurs' inability to corrall offensive boards gave the Blazers a bunch of 2nd chance opportunities, many of which they converted. The Spurs also turned it over almost twice as much as the Blazers did last night, and the Blazers converted those into a +13 in points off of turnovers.

The officiating might have been bad, but I'd argue that the inability to grab boards and take care of the ball were what cost the Spurs.


Referees change the outcomes of games all the time. You can play woulda/coulda/shoulda with your favorite team's performance all you want, but one call is OFTEN the difference between a win and a loss.

But if your mind is so closed that you won't EVER believe that poor officiating changes the outcome of games, then there is no point in even discussing it with you.

[zepn]

If the refereeing is poor/biased isn't it that way for the entire league? So all teams have the same chance of having calls go for or against them?

Uh, no. "Biased" MEANS you are for one (team in this case) at the expense of another.

[FromWayDowntown]

Referees change the outcomes of games all the time. You can play woulda/coulda/shoulda with your favorite team's performance all you want, but one call is OFTEN the difference between a win and a loss.

Not if you keep yourself out of position to allow one call to make the difference. Great teams do that and win.


But if your mind is so closed that you won't EVER believe that poor officiating changes the outcome of games, then there is no point in even discussing it with you.

Yeah, I'm not really open to the idea that officiating changes games; that won't stop me from expressing that view to those who disagree with me.

[zepn]

I don't think missed calls ever change the outcome of a game because there are too many variables over the course of 48 minutes.

Why pick and choose "missed calls" out of that giant pile of "variables"?

You could have just as easily said "I don't think rebounds ever change the outcome of a game because there are too many variables over the course of 48 minutes."

Or even more stunningly stupid: "I don't think total points scored ever change the outcome of a game because there are too many variables over the course of 48 minutes."

It ALL matters.

[zepn]

Not if you keep yourself out of position to allow one call to make the difference. Great teams do that and win.

So "great teams" can always control whether or not they get a bad call just by the way they play. I see... :rolleyes

[DPG21920]

So you attempt to refute my argument by stipulating to it? pwned.


There are billions of dollars at stake in the NBA. Every penny of it comes from the fans either directly or indirectly.

NBA referees have proven themselves to be criminal, biased, selfish, and incompetent on many occasions. Obviously no referee will ever be 100% perfect, but these guys, and this league, aren't even close.


No, you clearly used the plural to describe the refs and I destroyed your lengthy argument with one sentence.


Uh, no. "Biased" MEANS you are for one (team in this case) at the expense of another.

If the refs are Biased, they are biased and imperfect, they are for everyone. So on any given night you will get calls or not. The chances are the same. So it evens out. Unless you are saying the refs are more biased against the Spurs than other teams, if so we have a Conspiracy Theory on our hands.

[zepn]

No, you clearly used the plural to describe the refs and I destroyed your lengthy argument with one sentence.

Sure, assuming that none of the other refs have ever been "biased, selfish," or "incompetent".

Try reading the ENTIRE sentence before commenting.

[zepn]

If the refs are Biased, they are biased and imperfect, they are for everyone.

You must be a genius. :lol

[Biernutz]

Bad calls in the 4th period

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb270/systime/Gifffs1234/my_nipples.gif

[zepn]

So on any given night you will get calls or not. The chances are the same. So it evens out. Unless you are saying the refs are more biased against the Spurs than other teams, if so we have a Conspiracy Theory on our hands.

I have not said anything that was Spurs-specific.

If your team has a "Star" player that gets more calls than he should, your team will have an advantage. If your team starts a rookie that gets fewer calls than he should, your team will have a disadvantage. These advantages/disadvantages DO NOT "even out", they MULTIPLY by the number of games played.

[DPG21920]

Sure, assuming that none of the other refs have ever been "biased, selfish," or "incompetent".

Try reading the ENTIRE sentence before commenting.

Try not writing long-winded stupid paragraphs that use broad sweeping assumptions and associations that can be disproved with 10 words.

[DPG21920]

I have not said anything that was Spurs-specific.

If your team has a "Star" player that gets more calls than he should, your team will have an advantage. If your team starts a rookie that gets fewer calls than he should, your team will have a disadvantage. These advantages/disadvantages DO NOT "even out", they MULTIPLY by the number of games played.

Every team has stars.

[zepn]

Try not writing long-winded stupid paragraphs that use broad sweeping assumptions and associations that can be disproved with 10 words.

Here is my entire statement:
"NBA referees have proven themselves to be criminal, biased, selfish, and incompetent on many occasions. Obviously no referee will ever be 100% perfect, but these guys, and this league, aren't even close."

It is not 1) long-winded, 2) stupid, 3) a paragraph, 4) broad-sweeping, 5) an assumption.

The only thing you have "disproved" is your intelligence with your failure to understand that the plural "referees" relates to the plural "criminal, biased, selfish, and incompetent on many occasions".

Your faulty logic would also require that no other official had EVER committed ANY other criminal act. :rolleyes

[DPG21920]

There are billions of dollars at stake in the NBA. Every penny of it comes from the fans either directly or indirectly.

NBA referees have proven themselves to be criminal, biased, selfish, and incompetent on many occasions. Obviously no referee will ever be 100% perfect, but these guys, and this league, aren't even close.

Every NBA fan has the right, and possibly even the obligation, to hold the referees and the NBA as a whole accountable for their actions.

I myself am sick of the league's and some ignorant and lazy fans' casual acceptance of fouls/rules/interpetations being applied differently for star players, star teams, home teams, end of the game, playoff games, rookies, etc.

I am also sick of the much-loved ref-apologist theory "It's not the ref's fault - we should have played good enough to win (and beat the refs) and then bad calls don't matter". While this might be the frame of mind you want your players to have, it is complete bullshit as a logical argument, and there is absolutely no reason for anyone outside the team to wallow in that feces, or use it as some sort of false moral high-ground to "preach" to those who know better.

So if you don't want to hear fans bitch about bad calls then crawl back in your hole and pretend it doesn't happen. And don't read threads with titles such as "Late calls favoring Blazers". No one needs you to be their censor.

this is your original paragraph. it sucks, but i am done with you. you are well within your rights as a fan to bitch about the officiating, but you are bringing nothing to the site in doing so.

[zepn]

Every team has stars.

Well of course they do Mary-Lou! And all people are created equal, and the world is a happy place, full of sunshine and rainbows and unicorns...

Once again, you really should read the ENTIRE sentence: "If your team has a "Star" player that gets more calls than he should, your team will have an advantage."

In addition not all "Stars" will get the same number of calls. And no, it will not "even-out".

[zepn]

this is your original paragraph. it sucks, but i am done with you. you are well within your rights as a fan to bitch about the officiating, but you are bringing nothing to the site in doing so.

"it sucks" :lol translation: "Wish I had paid attention in school..."

It's a damn good post (not a paragraph), and you haven't been able to refute a single bit of it, because it is well thought-out and true. But you're done with me, which is unfortunate because you might have learned something. Cheers. :toast

[Obstructed_View]

So I've kind of noticed something in the games I've watched this year, and I want to see if anyone else has noticed it too...

Do you get the feeling that the officials are giving calls to the road teams, even questionable or ticky-tack calls? It's gotten to the point where it seems deliberate. I don't know how to look up stats like that, but if someone could compare the small number of games so far this year with the ones last year (when everyone in the media was complaining that NBA refs too heavily favored the home team) I'd be interested in seeing it.

[Fabbs]

There are billions of dollars at stake in the NBA. Every penny of it comes from the fans either directly or indirectly.

NBA referees have proven themselves to be criminal, biased, selfish, and incompetent on many occasions. Obviously no referee will ever be 100% perfect, but these guys, and this league, aren't even close.

Every NBA fan has the right, and possibly even the obligation, to hold the referees and the NBA as a whole accountable for their actions.

I myself am sick of the league's and some ignorant and lazy fans' casual acceptance of fouls/rules/interpetations being applied differently for star players, star teams, home teams, end of the game, playoff games, rookies, etc.

I am also sick of the much-loved ref-apologist theory "It's not the ref's fault - we should have played good enough to win (and beat the refs) and then bad calls don't matter". While this might be the frame of mind you want your players to have, it is complete bullshit as a logical argument, and there is absolutely no reason for anyone outside the team to wallow in that feces, or use it as some sort of false moral high-ground to "preach" to those who know better.

So if you don't want to hear fans bitch about bad calls then crawl back in your hole and pretend it doesn't happen. And don't read threads with titles such as "Late calls favoring Blazers". No one needs you to be their censor.

Exactly. And you've gone on to ass-own DPG. I think he must be 10 years old.

No Obtructed Brain we did not see the Spurs get favored last night.

[Obstructed_View]

No Obtructed Brain we did not see the Spurs get favored last night.

Well, you're a whining retard. I can't imagine you ever saw the Spurs get a call, particularly after a loss, and given your basketball knowledge, I doubt you watch any other games. Thanks for the input, though. Riveting as always. :lol

[rascal]

Why is there a thread started about whining about officials? This is why people hate the Spurs and their fans. Cry babies.

Exactly. You can analyze any game and find a number of calls you won't like.

[samikeyp]

Why is there a thread started about whining about officials? This is why people hate the Spurs and their fans. Cry babies.

Because some people just like to bitch. :lol

Some people just can't believe that their favorite team, whomever it may be, can actually lose a game. It has to be some outside forces at work against the team of their choice. :lol:lol

[samikeyp]

The Spurs are off to an 0-2 start, I don't think we have seen more than the usual level of people freaking out. :lol

[Obstructed_View]

Because some people just like to bitch. :lol

Some people just can't believe that their favorite team, whomever it may be, can actually lose a game. It has to be some outside forces at work against the team of their choice. :lol:lol

It's also easy to remember the calls that hurt your team and to forget the calls that help your team. If a call hurts your team, you're probably more likely to think it shouldn't have been called, and if it helps, you probably are more likely to be able to justify it.

[samikeyp]

It's also easy to remember the calls that hurt your team and to forget the calls that help your team. If a call hurts your team, you're probably more likely to think it shouldn't have been called, and if it helps, you probably are more likely to be able to justify it.

Agreed, but sometimes a loss is solely the team's fault and some just do not wish to see that. Plus some folks just like to complain. :)

[samikeyp]

No, I think poor officiating sucks. I just won't ever believe that poor officiating changes the outcome of games. I agree that there were bad calls last night -- and I'll agree that the bad calls probably went disproportionately in favor of the Blazers. But I don't think the fact of the bad calls changed the outcome of the game; I don't think missed calls ever change the outcome of a game because there are too many variables over the course of 48 minutes. In last night's example, the Spurs' inability to corrall offensive boards gave the Blazers a bunch of 2nd chance opportunities, many of which they converted. The Spurs also turned it over almost twice as much as the Blazers did last night, and the Blazers converted those into a +13 in points off of turnovers.

The officiating might have been bad, but I'd argue that the inability to grab boards and take care of the ball were what cost the Spurs.

I tend to believe as FWD does on this one but I don't begrudge zepn for his views. Just because I have a particular opinion on a subject or a certain way I feel doesn't mean others have to or should and I would never be so rude or arrogant as to try and convert someone to my way of thinking. I don't agree with zepn but I am glad we all have a place like ST to voice how we feel.

[Obstructed_View]

Agreed, but sometimes a loss is solely the team's fault and some just do not wish to see that. Plus some folks just like to complain. :)

Like when they give up a thousand offensive rebounds and two quarter ending buzzer beaters? :lol

[samikeyp]

Like when they give up a thousand offensive rebounds and two quarter ending buzzer beaters? :lol

ding ding ding, we have a winner! :lol

I don't believe in conspiracy theories but that is a personal opinion and not a suggested course of action. I do get fans frustrations about the refs. There are times that you are watching your team and it just seems that they can't catch a break. We all want our team to succeed. I always laugh though on this board when some members of one fan base complain about the refs and get called "whiners" by those of the opposing fan base that night. Then those fans who called folks whiners start whining about calls when things don't go their teams way. The 2006 playoffs come to mind. :lol

[Fabbs]

Well, you're a whining retard. I can't imagine you ever saw the Spurs get a call, particularly after a loss, and given your basketball knowledge, I doubt you watch any other games. Thanks for the input, though. Riveting as always. :lol
Thank you for trolling in.
A sheep like you is a dream come true for Stern and the lets-sweep-the-Donaghy-thing under the rug.

[zepn]

So this is not some sort of put-on? You people truly believe that a ref has never made a call that has decided a game. For real? Or is it that you just won't allow yourself to believe it because that would devastate your basketball world?

Please note that I have not said "the Spurs got screwed" on this thread. And that I have said bad officiating is bad regardless of the team getting screwed, or even if they are both getting screwed for that matter.

But to deny bad officiating even exists is like denying the holocaust. We have documentary footage of both events people... wake up.

[zepn]

I would never be so rude or arrogant as to try and convert someone to my way of thinking.

I know what you mean. Like those people that go on a thread called something like, oh, "Late calls favoring Blazers" and tell people to "shut-up and stop whining about the refs", and "this thread sucks", and "your post sucks". Yeah that is pretty rude and arrogant isn't it?

I have seen quite a few posters on ST cop a holier-than-thou attitude on this issue and it's complete bullshit. Refs screw-up: Fact. Games have been decided by refs screwing-up: Fact. If you people choose to ignore it, fine. Just realize that you have made that choice, and don't even pretend to be "right" or morally "better" when in reality you just don't WANT to know the truth.

[DPG21920]

So this is not some sort of put-on? You people truly believe that a ref has never made a call that has decided a game. For real? Or is it that you just won't allow yourself to believe it because that would devastate your basketball world?

Please note that I have not said "the Spurs got screwed" on this thread. And that I have said bad officiating is bad regardless of the team getting screwed, or even if they are both getting screwed for that matter.

But to deny bad officiating even exists is like denying the holocaust. We have documentary footage of both events people... wake up.

No one is denying that there is bad calls. No one is denying that a few calls have heavily influenced a game. What everyone is saying is if you decide under your own free will to watch basketball, you do so acknowledging the human element of the game. You watch knowing that both teams will have some good calls and some bad. Over the course of a season they go both ways. As stated before, calls do not "lose" people games. They are one of many factors and usually wayyyyy less important than the others, except on the few occasions where they are so bad that it overrides all of the good calls. We all know that bad calls linger in peoples minds longer than a good call (which there are a lot more of).

So if you decide to watch basketball believing that there are refs that severely influence games you are 1) not very smart for watching a game in which you do not think the players control the outcome 2) annoying for complaining about it after every damn loss 3) not really beneficial to the site because you bring no insight or basketball knowledge at all and only get responses because people like to point out how sad you are.

If it is that bad, do not watch. But please spare the rest of us your whiny antics or at least save it for a well deserved time.

[DPG21920]

There are billions of dollars at stake in the NBA. Every penny of it comes from the fans either directly or indirectly.

NBA referees have proven themselves to be criminal, biased, selfish, and incompetent on many occasions. Obviously no referee will ever be 100% perfect, but these guys, and this league, aren't even close.

Every NBA fan has the right, and possibly even the obligation, to hold the referees and the NBA as a whole accountable for their actions.

I myself am sick of the league's and some ignorant and lazy fans' casual acceptance of fouls/rules/interpetations being applied differently for star players, star teams, home teams, end of the game, playoff games, rookies, etc.

I am also sick of the much-loved ref-apologist theory "It's not the ref's fault - we should have played good enough to win (and beat the refs) and then bad calls don't matter". While this might be the frame of mind you want your players to have, it is complete bullshit as a logical argument, and there is absolutely no reason for anyone outside the team to wallow in that feces, or use it as some sort of false moral high-ground to "preach" to those who know better.

So if you don't want to hear fans bitch about bad calls then crawl back in your hole and pretend it doesn't happen. And don't read threads with titles such as "Late calls favoring Blazers". No one needs you to be their censor.


Referees change the outcomes of games all the time. You can play woulda/coulda/shoulda with your favorite team's performance all you want, but one call is OFTEN the difference between a win and a loss.

But if your mind is so closed that you won't EVER believe that poor officiating changes the outcome of games, then there is no point in even discussing it with you.


You must be a genius. :lol


Here is my entire statement:
"NBA referees have proven themselves to be criminal, biased, selfish, and incompetent on many occasions. Obviously no referee will ever be 100% perfect, but these guys, and this league, aren't even close."

It is not 1) long-winded, 2) stupid, 3) a paragraph, 4) broad-sweeping, 5) an assumption.

The only thing you have "disproved" is your intelligence with your failure to understand that the plural "referees" relates to the plural "criminal, biased, selfish, and incompetent on many occasions".

Your faulty logic would also require that no other official had EVER committed ANY other criminal act. :rolleyes


"it sucks" :lol translation: "Wish I had paid attention in school..."

It's a damn good post (not a paragraph), and you haven't been able to refute a single bit of it, because it is well thought-out and true. But you're done with me, which is unfortunate because you might have learned something. Cheers. :toast


I know what you mean. Like those people that go on a thread called something like, oh, "Late calls favoring Blazers" and tell people to "shut-up and stop whining about the refs", and "this thread sucks", and "your post sucks". Yeah that is pretty rude and arrogant isn't it?

I have seen quite a few posters on ST cop a holier-than-thou attitude on this issue and it's complete bullshit. Refs screw-up: Fact. Games have been decided by refs screwing-up: Fact. If you people choose to ignore it, fine. Just realize that you have made that choice, and don't even pretend to be "right" or morally "better" when in reality you just don't WANT to know the truth.


Ahhh, a beacon of humility and humbleness. An example of how to behave and talk to people. It is refreshing.

[DPG21920]

Exactly. And you've gone on to ass-own DPG. I think he must be 10 years old.

No Obtructed Brain we did not see the Spurs get favored last night.

Ass-own? I guess so since the majority of people agree.



Well, you're a whining retard. I can't imagine you ever saw the Spurs get a call, particularly after a loss, and given your basketball knowledge, I doubt you watch any other games. Thanks for the input, though. Riveting as always. :lol


Exactly. You can analyze any game and find a number of calls you won't like.


Because some people just like to bitch. :lol

Some people just can't believe that their favorite team, whomever it may be, can actually lose a game. It has to be some outside forces at work against the team of their choice. :lol:lol


The Spurs are off to an 0-2 start, I don't think we have seen more than the usual level of people freaking out. :lol


It's also easy to remember the calls that hurt your team and to forget the calls that help your team. If a call hurts your team, you're probably more likely to think it shouldn't have been called, and if it helps, you probably are more likely to be able to justify it.


Agreed, but sometimes a loss is solely the team's fault and some just do not wish to see that. Plus some folks just like to complain. :)


Like when they give up a thousand offensive rebounds and two quarter ending buzzer beaters? :lol

[zepn]

Ahhh, a beacon of humility and humbleness. An example of how to behave and talk to people. It is refreshing.

I never claimed to be a beacon of humility and humbleness, and indeed I am not, but you're the dickhead that came on a thread called "Late calls favoring Blazers" and then bitched about people bitching about the refs. What the fuck did you think you were going to find, genius?

[DPG21920]

I never claimed to be a beacon of humility and humbleness, and indeed I am not, but you're the dickhead that came on a thread called "Late calls favoring Blazers" and then bitched about people bitching about the refs. What the fuck did you think you were going to find, genius?

What education have you achieved that allows you to decide who is a genius?

By your logic, any thread that is started is open for posts by whomever has an opinion on the subject; good or bad.

So if I started a thread that said "No whiny basketball mental midgets allowed" you would not post?

[DPG21920]

I never claimed to be a beacon of humility and humbleness, and indeed I am not, but you're the dickhead that came on a thread called "Late calls favoring Blazers" and then bitched about people bitching about the refs. What the fuck did you think you were going to find, genius?

[zepn]

Ass-own?

Pretty much. You should have quit while you were behind.

[LakerHater]

Why is there a thread started about whining about officials? This is why people hate the Spurs and their fans. Cry babies.

http://db.funformobile.com/images/smiles/clap.gif (javascript:emoticon('form_text',':clap:'))
Thank You! It's only game 2!!
...And the whinin has started...
C'mon!

[DPG21920]

I guess alllllllll of these people are dickheads for entering a thread and saying how lame it is. Ya, I am the one getting "pwned"....



No, I think poor officiating sucks. I just won't ever believe that poor officiating changes the outcome of games. I agree that there were bad calls last night -- and I'll agree that the bad calls probably went disproportionately in favor of the Blazers. But I don't think the fact of the bad calls changed the outcome of the game; I don't think missed calls ever change the outcome of a game because there are too many variables over the course of 48 minutes. In last night's example, the Spurs' inability to corrall offensive boards gave the Blazers a bunch of 2nd chance opportunities, many of which they converted. The Spurs also turned it over almost twice as much as the Blazers did last night, and the Blazers converted those into a +13 in points off of turnovers.

The officiating might have been bad, but I'd argue that the inability to grab boards and take care of the ball were what cost the Spurs.


Bad calls in the 4th period

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb270/systime/Gifffs1234/my_nipples.gif



Well, you're a whining retard. I can't imagine you ever saw the Spurs get a call, particularly after a loss, and given your basketball knowledge, I doubt you watch any other games. Thanks for the input, though. Riveting as always. :lol


Exactly. You can analyze any game and find a number of calls you won't like.


Because some people just like to bitch. :lol

Some people just can't believe that their favorite team, whomever it may be, can actually lose a game. It has to be some outside forces at work against the team of their choice. :lol:lol


The Spurs are off to an 0-2 start, I don't think we have seen more than the usual level of people freaking out. :lol


It's also easy to remember the calls that hurt your team and to forget the calls that help your team. If a call hurts your team, you're probably more likely to think it shouldn't have been called, and if it helps, you probably are more likely to be able to justify it.


Agreed, but sometimes a loss is solely the team's fault and some just do not wish to see that. Plus some folks just like to complain. :)


http://db.funformobile.com/images/smiles/clap.gif (javascript:emoticon('form_text',':clap:'))
Thank You! It's only game 2!!
...And the whinin has started...
C'mon!


I never claimed to be a beacon of humility and humbleness, and indeed I am not, but you're the dickhead that came on a thread called "Late calls favoring Blazers" and then bitched about people bitching about the refs. What the fuck did you think you were going to find, genius?

[zepn]

What education have you achieved that allows you to decide who is a genius?

By your logic, any thread that is started is open for posts by whomever has an opinion on the subject; good or bad.

So if I started a thread that said "No whiny basketball mental midgets allowed" you would not post?

1) It was sarcasm, genius.

2) Not "by my logic", but I do agree with the statement. My contention is that you read the title of this thread and then came in here with the intent to bitch about people bitching about the refs, not "to addsomething to the forum".

3) I would be free to post on such a thread, but you would never see it.

[zepn]

I guess alllllllll of these people are dickheads for entering a thread and saying how lame it is. Ya, I am the one getting "pwned"....

Glad you've come to terms with it.

Incidentally, I have not "whined" about anything and I have not mentioned the officiating in this specific game.

[DPG21920]

1) It was sarcasm, genius.

2) Not "by my logic", but I do agree with the statement. My contention is that you read the title of this thread and then came in here with the intent to bitch about people bitching about the refs, not "to addsomething to the forum".

3) I would be free to post on such a thread, but you would never see it.

Well, considering our post counts and the relative age of this thread, I would say I have been in a lot more thread discussions than you. If people start worthless threads that are nothing but a compilation of our whiniest fans, it drags everyone down. Especially when there is no real basis for your argument.

Yes you can start threads about what you want, that does not make them good or meaningful, especially when the vast majority thinks it sucks. So I know you like to go by the "right and wrong is relative" philosophy, but with regards to whining and bitching you are wrong.

[DPG21920]

Glad you've come to terms with it.

Incidentally, I have not "whined" about anything and I have not mentioned the officiating in this specific game.

Instead you imply that the refs drastically alter the games for the entire league in favor of stars and no calls even out and many times the teams cannot overcome. That is better now that I say it back to myself.

[Brutalis]

Let's not be retards. The jump ball call was horrible, TD was fouled. And the Mason push was not even a push, Mason extended his arms and put two hands on him briefly... that is not a push. Hilarious how people can have clear cut video evidence and still see something totally different.

[DPG21920]

Let's not be retards. The jump ball call was horrible, TD was fouled. And the Mason push was not even a push, Mason extended his arms and put two hands on him briefly... that is not a push. Hilarious how people can have clear cut video evidence and still see something totally different.

No one is arguing fouls were missed. But that happens on both sides of the ball and the Spurs still had a chance to win.

[zepn]

As stated before, calls do not "lose" people games.

Tell that to the guy Jordan pushed-off on to win the championship.

[DPG21920]

Tell that to the guy Jordan pushed-off on to win the championship.

Ya because the guys team who lost made every shot, made every free throw and grabbed every rebound. They played perfect leaving only that call that lost them the game. Use your head, the un-whiny portion.

[zepn]

If people start worthless threads that are nothing but a compilation of our whiniest fans, it drags everyone down. Especially when there is no real basis for your argument.

So you must be the arbiter of which threads are worthless and which fans are whiny then.

It's simple. Read the title of the thread. If it doesn't interest you then don't just go in there to bitch about the thread.

Don't go in there at all. Just move on.

[DPG21920]

So you must be the arbiter of which threads are worthless and which fans are whiny then.

It's simple. Read the title of the thread. If it doesn't interest you then don't just go in there to bitch about the thread.

Don't go in there at all. Just move on.

Nope, the forum will tell you which threads suck. Just listen the vast majority of people posting here. But I guess you and your 1 friend in here are right, and the rest of the people that have been here longer than you and I are wrong.

It does interest me. It interest me in a negative way, and since things are relative here, you cannot tell me that my way is wrong or that I should move along. It does interest me.

[zepn]

Ya because the guys team who lost made every shot, made every free throw and grabbed every rebound. They played perfect leaving only that call that lost them the game.

You really don't fucking get it, do you?

His team's play before that call, and the call itself are INDEPENDENT EVENTS. They do not influence each other one bit.

His team WOULD HAVE WON IF THAT CALL HAD BEEN MADE CORRECTLY. PERIOD. END OF STORY.

You must be one of those people that believe his horse is "due" to win, or a penny that flips heads one time will flip tails the next. It doesn't work that way!

[zepn]

Nope, the forum will tell you which threads suck. Just listen the vast majority of people posting here. But I guess you and your 1 friend in here are right, and the rest of the people that have been here longer than you and I are wrong.

It does interest me. It interest me in a negative way, and since things are relative here, you cannot tell me that my way is wrong or that I should move along. It does interest me.

So you WANT to bitch about people bitching about the refs. That's funny. You NEED people starting threads like this.:rollin

[DPG21920]

You really don't fucking get it, do you?

His team's play before that call, and the call itself are INDEPENDENT EVENTS. They do not influence each other one bit.

His team WOULD HAVE WON IF THAT CALL HAD BEEN MADE CORRECTLY. PERIOD. END OF STORY.

You must be one of those people that believe his horse is "due" to win, or a penny that flips heads one time will flip tails the next. It doesn't work that way!

What the hell are you rambling about? How are they independent events? I can just as easily say if the team made 1 more of their 3 point shots that they would of won even with that call remaining wrong, END OF STORY.

It is painfully obvious that you have never played sports in your life and if by some chance you made whatever team, you never won. Winners do not think like you.

[zepn]

Instead you imply that the refs drastically alter the games for the entire league in favor of stars and no calls even out and many times the teams cannot overcome. That is better now that I say it back to myself.

No, I flat-out stated that Stars get more calls. This is common knowledge.

Bad calls often even-out, but that doesn't mean they weren't bad calls. It just means they made more than one bad call.

Many times teams cannot overcome their opponent and the bad calls. How many games have the Lakers won by a point? How many free throws has Kobe Bryant shot that most other players would not have been given?

[DPG21920]

No, I flat-out stated that Stars get more calls. This is common knowledge.

Bad calls often even-out, but that doesn't mean they weren't bad calls. It just means they made more than one bad call.

Many times teams cannot overcome their opponent and the bad calls. How many games have the Lakers won by a point? How many free throws has Kobe Bryant shot that most other players would not have been given?

Why do you watch the damn games then if the players do not control the outcome? That is the fundamental basis for enjoying sports. Do you see what word I used there? Enjoy. Starting threads like this and listening to basketball ignorant people such as yourself sucks the joy out of the game. So I implore you, quit watching basketball.

[Obstructed_View]

Thank you for trolling in.
A sheep like you is a dream come true for Stern and the lets-sweep-the-Donaghy-thing under the rug.

:lol

I asked if anyone else noticed that road teams were getting calls, which, if true, would probably lend credence to the "NBA is rigged" talk. You blow it off and attempt an insult and don't even realize that my observation might have helped your argument far more than your complaints about calls that were correct in the first place. Wipe the drool off your shirt, pussy, and quit crying about the fucking officiating.

[DPG21920]

:lol

I asked if anyone else noticed that road teams were getting calls, which, if true, would probably lend credence to the "NBA is rigged" talk. You blow it off and attempt an insult and don't even realize that my observation might have helped your argument. Wipe the drool off your shirt, pussy, and quit crying about the fucking officiating.

PETA is going to come after you for clubbing so many baby seals.

[Obstructed_View]

PETA is going to come after you for clubbing so many baby seals.

Fabbs isn't smart enough to qualify.

[Biggems]

the officiating sucked...but it has done so for a long time now. The Spurs had a chance to win with that last shot.....but Finley missed. Props to Portland on a good win

[zepn]

What the hell are you rambling about? How are they independent events? I can just as easily say if the team made 1 more of their 3 point shots that they would of won even with that call remaining wrong, END OF STORY.

It is painfully obvious that you have never played sports in your life and if by some chance you made whatever team, you never won. Winners do not think like you.

No, you can't say that, and that is the entire fucking point! The game had been played. Everyone had done the best they could. It was OVER, except for the call. And THAT CALL decided the game. No matter what call he made.

(I played all major sports and a few minor ones. Won more than I lost.)

It is painfully obvious that you have never studied Statistics in your life and if by some chance you had, you failed. Intelligent people do not think like you.

As I stated earlier, if you want to spout this bullshit to your players to make them play harder, go for it. But we FANS do not have to believe in the same motivational stupidity, as we cannot affect the outcome.

[DPG21920]

No, you can't say that, and that is the entire fucking point! The game had been played. Everyone had done the best they could. It was OVER, except for the call. And THAT CALL decided the game. No matter what call he made.

(I played all major sports and a few minor ones. Won more than I lost.)

It is painfully obvious that you have never studied Statistics in your life and if by some chance you had, you failed. Intelligent people do not think like you.

As I stated earlier, if you want to spout this bullshit to your players to make them play harder, go for it. But we FANS do not have to believe in the same motivational stupidity, as we cannot affect the outcome.

Rest assured I have studied statistics (you never answered my question about your education level). All calls have the same weight throughout the game, a bad call is a bad call and it alters the chain of events leading up to said point.

I know for a fact you did not win in sports, and I do not mean Suns win a lot of regular season kind of winning, I mean going the distance

[zepn]

Why do you watch the damn games then if the players do not control the outcome? That is the fundamental basis for enjoying sports. Do you see what word I used there? Enjoy. Starting threads like this and listening to basketball ignorant people such as yourself sucks the joy out of the game. So I implore you, quit watching basketball.

The players usually do decide the outcomes, but I am not naive enough to believe this is always the case.

I enjoy the games immensely and I can even appreciate a well-called game by the officials because I actually watch what they do, unlike the people that bury their heads in the sand assuming they are always correct, or that it will somehow always even-out to be exactly fair for both teams.

I did not start this thread.

You willfully ignore bad officiating and then call me ignorant. :lol

[DPG21920]

The players usually do decide the outcomes, but I am not naive enough to believe this is always the case.

I enjoy the games immensely and I can even appreciate a well-called game by the officials because I actually watch what they do, unlike the people that bury their heads in the sand assuming they are always correct, or that it will somehow always even-out to be exactly fair for both teams.

I did not start this thread.

You willfully ignore bad officiating and then call me ignorant. :lol

When did I say they are perfect? When did I say they are always correct? If you can quote one time where I said that, show one fact, you can end this.

I said (as the vast majority of others have as well) that refs make more good calls during the course of games than bad calls. We all watch knowing there is the human element and that mistakes will be made. We know it will not be "exactly" fair, but we also know it won't ruin games unless they are KNOWINGLY CHEATING.

[zepn]

Rest assured I have studied statistics (you never answered my question about your education level). All calls have the same weight throughout the game, a bad call is a bad call and it alters the chain of events leading up to said point.

I know for a fact you did not win in sports, and I do not mean Suns win a lot of regular season kind of winning, I mean going the distance

Then you should understand what independent events are. All calls have the same weight throughout the game, a bad call is a bad call and it alters the chain of events following that event.

I have three degrees, one of them post-graduate. I have been on playoff level football and basketball teams that did not win it all. I also own several track records in Formula cars.

[zepn]

When did I say they are perfect? When did I say they are always correct? If you can quote one time where I said that, show one fact, you can end this.

I said (as the vast majority of others have as well) that refs make more good calls during the course of games than bad calls. We all watch knowing there is the human element and that mistakes will be made. We know it will not be "exactly" fair, but we also know it won't ruin games unless they are KNOWINGLY CHEATING.

When did I say it was you? And I really don't give a shit what you think. My point is that bad calls DO matter. Hence:

I am sick of the much-loved ref-apologist theory "It's not the ref's fault - we should have played good enough to win (and beat the refs) and then bad calls don't matter". While this might be the frame of mind you want your players to have, it is complete bullshit as a logical argument, and there is absolutely no reason for anyone outside the team to wallow in that feces, or use it as some sort of false moral high-ground to "preach" to those who know better.

[TJastal]

There are billions of dollars at stake in the NBA. Every penny of it comes from the fans either directly or indirectly.

NBA referees have proven themselves to be criminal, biased, selfish, and incompetent on many occasions. Obviously no referee will ever be 100% perfect, but these guys, and this league, aren't even close.

Every NBA fan has the right, and possibly even the obligation, to hold the referees and the NBA as a whole accountable for their actions.

I myself am sick of the league's and some ignorant and lazy fans' casual acceptance of fouls/rules/interpetations being applied differently for star players, star teams, home teams, end of the game, playoff games, rookies, etc.

I am also sick of the much-loved ref-apologist theory "It's not the ref's fault - we should have played good enough to win (and beat the refs) and then bad calls don't matter". While this might be the frame of mind you want your players to have, it is complete bullshit as a logical argument, and there is absolutely no reason for anyone outside the team to wallow in that feces, or use it as some sort of false moral high-ground to "preach" to those who know better.

So if you don't want to hear fans bitch about bad calls then crawl back in your hole and pretend it doesn't happen. And don't read threads with titles such as "Late calls favoring Blazers". No one needs you to be their censor.

I turned on the tv yesterday to watch the end of the Celtics-Pacers game, and lo and behold there's Violet Palmer blowing another call. This time it was Paul Pierce who was the victim, he made a beautiful block on a driving layup, caught the ball well before it hit glass and my replay showed the ball was still on its way up. The closer official next to the basket let the play go, but Violet decided her view near the halfcourt line was better and she blew her whistle for goal-tending.

That blown call really cost the Celtics, who were had just substitued their starters for the 4th quarter rally (down by 9). Pretty much after that the Pacers went on a tear and won big.

Just can't wait for the next spurs game Violet refs. :rolleyes

If the season comes down to a make or break game for the spurs I will not be surprised to see Crawford, Violet, and Salvatore as the officiating crew.