spurs shoulda taken batum?

[Darthkiller]

The kid was a monster so far and was said to start for blazers, the spurs should have took him or traded for him when he was getting shipped.

[BOHOLANO#21]

The kid was a monster so far and was said to start for blazers, the spurs should have took him or traded for him when he was getting shipped.
if you only followed the draft you would have known that batum wanted to play for the spurs that's why he never worked out for another team after he worked out for the spurs. too bad the blazers picked ahead of the spurs and picked batum without a pre-draft workout done. i was hoping batum would force a trade but apparently the blazers assured him playing time.

[SenorSpur]

Now he's a true SF with size, length and the kind of defensive prowess that Tayshaun Prince would be proud of. It's a goddamn shame this kid isn't playing here. Especially in a season where Bowen has started to appear as though he heading down the same steep, but rapid path to decline that Robert Horry took last season.

All the while, we're left with basically a collection of small, undersized spare parts at the SF position. I curse Pop and RC for doing so very little to fortify this position over the past few years. Poor judgement and personnel decision-making.

[SenorSpur]

if you only followed the draft you would have known that batum wanted to play for the spurs that's why he never worked out for another team after he worked out for the spurs. too bad the blazers picked ahead of the spurs and picked batum without a pre-draft workout done. i was hoping batum would force a trade but apparently the blazers assured him playing.

That's why it's such a freaking "kick to the groin" to see this kid flourishing on the team that already has the most young talent in the NBA. :nutkick: :bang

[picnroll]

... and it was Houston that put the screws to the Spurs with the trade that moved Portland up.

[SenorSpur]

... and it was Houston that put the screws to the Spurs with the trade that moved Portland up.

I hope Artest has one of his famous combustible meltdowns and craters any potential playoff success expected for this team. I hate those bastards for this.

[Obstructed_View]

The Spurs got pritch-slapped.

[benefactor]

Honestly, I wish we'd just quit talking about. Nothing can change what happened and we have more than enough irritating situations to deal with right now. No need in adding another one.

[Mr. Body]

Personnel decisions shortened the Spurs' zone of contention. But Batum wasn't available when the picked; they just got reamed by the Rockets. Once again.

[Darthkiller]

this guy reminds me of Tayshawn by the way he played last night. Long arms , good defense.

[BOHOLANO#21]

That's why it's such a freaking "kick to the groin" to see this kid flourishing on the team that already has the most young talent in the NBA. :nutkick: :bang
yup. i was kinda mad last night watching him play well. 19 years old and lots of upside....:bang:bang:bang

[davi78239]

so let me get this straight, I guess the initial plan was to maybe take Batum first round and then take Hill in the second round. But when Batum was off the boards, they went with the next best which was Hill because according to some, the Celtics were looking at taking Hill at 30 and the spurs wanted to make sure that they'd at least get him. Am I right maybe? Just imagine, we coulda had both Batum and Hill.

[SenorSpur]

The fact of the matter is had Batum been available and the Spurs did decide to take him, there's no way that Hill would've been available to them in the second round. They would've had to pull of something of a trade scenario like PHX did with them in order to get Dragic.

Hell, it's a nice thought, but not a likely scenario. As good as I think Hill will be and as glad as I am to have him on the squad, I would've taken Batum in a heartbeat had he been available.

[K-State Spur]

I thought we should have taken Beasley.

[sexinthatsx]

don't make and assumptions until you see George Hill play a game into the regular season...

[toki9]

so let me get this straight, I guess the initial plan was to maybe take Batum first round and then take Hill in the second round. But when Batum was off the boards, they went with the next best which was Hill because according to some, the Celtics were looking at taking Hill at 30 and the spurs wanted to make sure that they'd at least get him. Am I right maybe? Just imagine, we coulda had both Batum and Hill.

Yes, that seems to have been the case...until Pritchard and Morey did a swap just before we picked...wow, this still hurts...

[Phenomanul]

Anyone else see Parker speaking with Batum after the game, Parker was shaking his head like, "dude, we needed you..." it was in the corner of the screen right before they interviewed Roy...

[Phenomanul]

Curse that draft day deal...

[Darthkiller]

blame da rockets

[Russ]

Luck has so much to do with the draft. The Spurs wanted Parker but Boston, Indy, etc. almost took him. The Spurs got lucky and snapped him up.

They mised Batum by one spot in the draft. Just bad luck.

Same with Splitter. They made a great pick but didn't get any benefit due to bad luck -- no way to sign him under NBA rules.

Mahinmi and Hill, on the other hand, were picks the Spurs had way ahead of where other teams had them -- if they don't work out we can't blame luck.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Our draft day dealings since Lindsey got here from Houston leave much to be desired.

[Tmac&Luther]

Our draft day dealings since Lindsey got here from Houston leave much to be desired.

We Rocket fans tried to warn y'all..........Dennis leaving Houston was addition by subtraction.

[Biggems]

Houston can kiss my ass......we give them Scola for nothing....and then to show their thanks, they screw us out of Batum.....

another 1st round exit for those Reds will be just what the doctor ordered to cure my sour stomach on the matter.

[Phenomanul]

Houston can kiss my ass......we give them Scola for nothing....and then to show their thanks, they screw us out of Batum.....

another 1st round exit for those Reds will be just what the doctor ordered to cure my sour stomach on the matter.

It will take much more than that if Batum ends up becoming a stud, the "long-three" we've been searching forever (it seems)....

[Mr. Body]

What I don't get about George Hill, no matter how 'good' he'll be... is the only position he can play is behind our one young superstar.

[SenorSpur]

What I don't get about George Hill, no matter how 'good' he'll be... is the only position he can play is behind our one young superstar.

Which is why missing out on this kid Batum is so costly. Good solid, young, defensive-minded PGs are more easily found that long, athletic, 3-men. Look how long the Spurs have been in the market for one.

I'll say again, if Batum was still on the board with Hill, it would be a no-brainer. Select Batum in the 1st round and if you're still looking for a backup PG, make a deal to move up in the 2nd round for Hill or take Dragic at their pick# 45.

[Big P]

Which is why missing out on this kid Batum is so costly. Good solid, young, defensive-minded PGs are more easily found that long, athletic, 3-men. Look how long the Spurs have been in the market for one.

I'll say again, if Batum was still on the board with Hill, it would be a no-brainer. Select Batum in the 1st round and if you're still looking for a backup PG, make a deal to move up in the 2nd round for Hill or take Dragic at their pick# 45.

There is no doubt in my mind that the Spurs should have moved up at least a couple of spots to secure Batum as their pick...its such a shame that the kid wanted desperatly to play for the Spurs, only worked out for the Spurs & we didn't try to do everything we could to get Batum, IMO he will probably wind up being the stud SF we have been searching for...

I'm not one to bag on the FO, but it is plain as day how big of additions Scola & Batum would have been ...as great as TD, TP & RMJ have looked, the rest of the team has looked equally as horrible...

I'm not sure what can be done as far as trades, but I would not be suprised to see the Spurs shake things up before the trade deadline..it is painfully obvious that even when Manu gets back, we are in SERIOUS need of scoring & atlecticism....

I dont know how many times I saw Rodriguez blow past all of our bigs to grab the second chance rebound...if Finley can not step up while Manu is out this time, there are no excuses...he's getting outplayed by Mason who doesn't even have Pops complete sytem down yet, without Mason those first 2 games would have been blowouts, with the Spurs on the losing end.

Oh yea..has anyone seen Bruce Bowen show up? Is he even on the team anymore?

[Obstructed_View]

We Rocket fans tried to warn y'all..........Dennis leaving Houston was addition by subtraction.

Rocket fans should be happy; Dennis has helped the Rockets more than the Spurs since he arrived.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Which is why missing out on this kid Batum is so costly. Good solid, young, defensive-minded PGs are more easily found that long, athletic, 3-men. Look how long the Spurs have been in the market for one.

I'll say again, if Batum was still on the board with Hill, it would be a no-brainer. Select Batum in the 1st round and if you're still looking for a backup PG, make a deal to move up in the 2nd round for Hill or take Dragic at their pick# 45.

It's clear the Spurs liked Batum and vice versa. They should have been prudent enough to move up and get their man.

[angelbelow]

yea! the spurs should have taken batum. but thats impossible isnt it?

[TJastal]

Which is why missing out on this kid Batum is so costly. Good solid, young, defensive-minded PGs are more easily found that long, athletic, 3-men. Look how long the Spurs have been in the market for one.

I'll say again, if Batum was still on the board with Hill, it would be a no-brainer. Select Batum in the 1st round and if you're still looking for a backup PG, make a deal to move up in the 2nd round for Hill or take Dragic at their pick# 45.

Bitter irony, Batum looks like he would have been the perfect heir to Bruce Bowen, a long athletic 3 who runs the court, shoots well out to the 3pt line and runs the court like a gazelle. People are comparing him Tayshaun Prince, but I think with his shooting prowess he's more in the mold of a Trevor Ariza or Rashard Lewis. Boy can handle the rock and has a high bball IQ too. What a shame the spurs didn't land him.

[tlongII]

I think it's just a reflection of the Spurs FO being lazy. I believe they were genuinely surprised when Batum was snatched from under their noses and then they panicked by using their 1st round selection on Hill. It still amazes me that they used a 1st round draft pick to take a backup point guard. What's even funnier is that it wasn't long after this that those guys in the FO promoted themselves to the title of "President." :lmao

[Mr. Body]

I think it's just a reflection of the Spurs FO being lazy. I believe they were genuinely surprised when Batum was snatched from under their noses and then they panicked by using their 1st round selection on Hill. It still amazes me that they used a 1st round draft pick to take a backup point guard. What's even funnier is that it wasn't long after this that those guys in the FO promoted themselves to the title of "President." :lmao

Agree, pretty much. Not getting Batum hurts, but only getting a guy who can only be a backup poing guard out of a draft with three picks is stupid. Plus, we didn't even get a guy out of the previous draft, where we had two picks, both of them pretty good. But the worst of the worst is trading Scola. It was all downhill then.

[024]

we should make a list on who to compare george hill to in the future. right now i can think of arthur, CDR, chalmers, batum, and donte greene.

[Allanon]

What I don't get about George Hill, no matter how 'good' he'll be... is the only position he can play is behind our one young superstar.

This was the most puzzling part in my opinion.

Why draft a backup point guard when there are serious concerns at the small forward position?

Forget Batum, he wasn't available. But the best or 2nd best small forward of that draft (in my opinion) was taken right after Batum/Hill.

Darrell Arthur was still available...6'9, 215 pound, athletic forward. Arthur was supposed to be a Top 10-15 draft pick. He's long, quick, can score AND defend. Oh yeah, he's also a GREAT rebounder at his position.

I think the Spurs will regret not taking Arthur.

Why'd the Spurs skip the long, athletic small forward for another backup point guard?

[024]

the spurs needed both a backup PG and younger players at the forward position. hill was a good pick because the spurs believed their first priority was finally finding someone to backup parker. no one was trusted to backup parker in last year's playoffs so they relied on ginobili and barry, who are both shooting guards. and if i remember correctly, parker has been lacking a solid and consistent backup for as long as he has been starting. the spurs filled the hole at the PG position probably because they thought they needed it more.

[MaNu4Tres]

Arthur is a power forward not a small forward

[Allanon]

Arthur is a power forward not a small forward

Arthur was a power forward in College but in the NBA, especially in the West, he's way too small for power forward.

He can play power forward against the smaller PF's in the East but because he's only 215 pounds, he's going to have a hard time as a PF in the West.

He would need to add about 30 pounds to be a 6'9 PF in the West.

Look at the West Power Forwards:

Duncan, 6'11, 260
Aldridge, 6'11, 240
Dirk, 7'0 245
Pau, 7'0 240
Darko, 7'0 275
Camby, 6'11 235
West, 6'9 240
Amare, 6'10 240
Scola, 6'9 245
Boozer, 6'9 266

[sexinthatsx]

the spurs needed both a backup PG and younger players at the forward position. hill was a good pick because the spurs believed their first priority was finally finding someone to backup parker. no one was trusted to backup parker in last year's playoffs so they relied on ginobili and barry, who are both shooting guards. and if i remember correctly, parker has been lacking a solid and consistent backup for as long as he has been starting. the spurs filled the hole at the PG position probably because they thought they needed it more.

I agree. I'd rather have George hill backing up TP than a small forward who will comete with Bruce Bowen (good luck) and Ime udoka and end up probably playing behind Ime. As far as people saying that Batum should've gone to the Spurs, I have to admit that as much as I don't want Vaque Vaughn to be our backup PG, Batum was a player we just HAD to take if he was available... fuck you portland, and fuck yesterday's loss that made tlong almost wet his pants

[underdawg]

Agree, pretty much. Not getting Batum hurts, but only getting a guy who can only be a backup poing guard out of a draft with three picks is stupid. Plus, we didn't even get a guy out of the previous draft, where we had two picks, both of them pretty good. But the worst of the worst is trading Scola. It was all downhill then.

But what if you were able to draft a player that can be used to defend/slow down opposing guards that have been torching the Spurs over the past couple of years? Don't know it that's Hill yet, but it could be.

[SenorSpur]

I think it's just a reflection of the Spurs FO being lazy. I believe they were genuinely surprised when Batum was snatched from under their noses and then they panicked by using their 1st round selection on Hill. It still amazes me that they used a 1st round draft pick to take a backup point guard. What's even funnier is that it wasn't long after this that those guys in the FO promoted themselves to the title of "President." :lmao

As bad as he's looking to start this season, I'm starting to be amazed that the Spurs spent a 1st round pick on Kurt Thomas.

[SenorSpur]

Agree, pretty much. Not getting Batum hurts, but only getting a guy who can only be a backup poing guard out of a draft with three picks is stupid. Plus, we didn't even get a guy out of the previous draft, where we had two picks, both of them pretty good. But the worst of the worst is trading Scola. It was all downhill then.

The Spurs not getting Batum is going to haunt them about as much as not drafting Josh Howard in 2003. The only difference is Howard was on the board for the Spurs taking - Batum was not. Also, the Spurs don't have the luxury of waiting another 5 years gambling that Bowen can hold down the position alone.

Even still, I agree with others. They should've done whatever it took the land this kid. Young players with these crazy type of skills and BBIQ ARE NOT growing on trees.

[K-State Spur]

Arthur was a power forward in College but in the NBA, especially in the West, he's way too small for power forward.

He can play power forward against the smaller PF's in the East but because he's only 215 pounds, he's going to have a hard time as a PF in the West.

He would need to add about 30 pounds to be a 6'9 PF in the West.

Look at the West Power Forwards:

Duncan, 6'11, 260
Aldridge, 6'11, 240
Dirk, 7'0 245
Pau, 7'0 240
Darko, 7'0 275
Camby, 6'11 235
West, 6'9 240
Amare, 6'10 240
Scola, 6'9 245
Boozer, 6'9 266

If Arthur has to make his living at the 3, it'll be a short career. He's got quicks compared to other 4s, not compared to wings. He's not the athlete that Julian Wright was, where he can be a combo forward (and I have strong doubts about Wright's ability to ever be anything more than a high energy role player).

His only shot is going to be as a slightly undersized 4. He'll struggle defensively as often as he won't. But - if you're high on him - he can do some good things on the other end.

[Obstructed_View]

What makes me crazy is that despite losing Batum, the Spurs get what looks like a gem in the second round, and they send him to Europe before camp even starts. Yeah, he wasn't ever going to be a 3, but a defender with size and hustle would have been nice.

[Tully365]

I think it's just a reflection of the Spurs FO being lazy. I believe they were genuinely surprised when Batum was snatched from under their noses and then they panicked by using their 1st round selection on Hill. It still amazes me that they used a 1st round draft pick to take a backup point guard. What's even funnier is that it wasn't long after this that those guys in the FO promoted themselves to the title of "President." :lmao

That's ridiculous. you honestly think a guy as organized as Pop had no back up plan in case Batum was gone? No way.

[Tully365]

What I don't get about George Hill, no matter how 'good' he'll be... is the only position he can play is behind our one young superstar.

Probably not-- he's a combo guard with a 6'9" wingspan, meaning he'll probably be able to guard the 2 spot, and sometimes play alongside Parker. If in the future he gets 15 mpg at the point and 10-12 mpg at the 2, he'll be very valuable. I think it's a smart drafting strategy. If they pick a pure point guard and he develops, he would in all likelihood eventually want to start, a la Calderon, which means he eventually wants to leave...

[tlongII]

That's ridiculous. you honestly think a guy as organized as Pop had no back up plan in case Batum was gone? No way.

Well, the evidence indicates he didn't.

[Tully365]

Well, the evidence indicates he didn't.

You clearly don't know anything about Pop's character, temperament, or history. I'm sure there was a list of about 15 names. There's no "evidence" of anything, just your impossibly naive opinion. George Hill was coveted by both the Lakers and the Celtics, the two teams that played in the finals.

What was Portland's opinion of how durable Greg Oden would be in the NBA? Do you still agree with it?

[Obstructed_View]

Probably not-- he's a combo guard with a 6'9" wingspan, meaning he'll probably be able to guard the 2 spot, and sometimes play alongside Parker. If in the future he gets 15 mpg at the point and 10-12 mpg at the 2, he'll be very valuable. I think it's a smart drafting strategy. If they pick a pure point guard and he develops, he would in all likelihood eventually want to start, a la Calderon, which means he eventually wants to leave...

I agree. If the new guys develop and Parker's jumper is as good as advertised, a backcourt rotation of Ginobili/Hill/Mason/Parker can be very versatile and very dangerous. That covers just about any offensive or defensive situation, gives everyone plenty of minutes and should allow Parker and Manu to be fresh at the end of the game. There may come a day where opposing guards dread playing the Spurs even more than they have.

[Obstructed_View]

Well, the evidence indicates he didn't.

Out of curiosity, what evidence is that? BTW, I'm giving you a chance to actually make an intelligent basketball observation rather than being antagonistic.

[tlongII]

You clearly don't know anything about Pop's character, temperament, or history. I'm sure there was a list of about 15 names. There's no "evidence" of anything, just your impossibly naive opinion. George Hill was coveted by both the Lakers and the Celtics, the two teams that played in the finals.

What was Portland's opinion of how durable Greg Oden would be in the NBA? Do you still agree with it?

I know the Spurs haven't picked a decent player in the draft in about 8 years. What does that say about Pop's character, termperament, or history?

[Tully365]

This was the most puzzling part in my opinion.

Why draft a backup point guard when there are serious concerns at the small forward position?

Forget Batum, he wasn't available. But the best or 2nd best small forward of that draft (in my opinion) was taken right after Batum/Hill.

Darrell Arthur was still available...6'9, 215 pound, athletic forward. Arthur was supposed to be a Top 10-15 draft pick. He's long, quick, can score AND defend. Oh yeah, he's also a GREAT rebounder at his position.

I think the Spurs will regret not taking Arthur.

Why'd the Spurs skip the long, athletic small forward for another backup point guard?

If Gist signs with the Spurs next year, he will likely do all the things Arthur does. Don't forget, there was also that story about him having the kidney problem. What would people say if the Spurs had picked him, and the suspicions were true? Every person here would be posting about how stupid they were for drafting a guy with a suspected bad kidney.

[tlongII]

Out of curiosity, what evidence is that? BTW, I'm giving you a chance to actually make an intelligent basketball observation rather than being antagonistic.

The evidence is the fact that they picked Hill. Why would you pick a backup point guard (and unproven at that) with your first round pick? Especially when the Spurs already have a young star at that position. To me it's blatantly obvious that they panicked.

[Tully365]

I know the Spurs haven't picked a decent player in the draft in about 8 years. What does that say about Pop's character, termperament, or history?

Nice way to avoid the topic. The Spurs picked Scola and Splitter recently, so your theory is completely wrong. The Blazers have been awful for 5 years, picked in the lottery every year, and still can't make the playoffs... what does that say about them?

[TDMVPDPOY]

we shouldve just resigned barry and trade him to the rockets for batum...

[tlongII]

If Gist signs with the Spurs next year, he will likely do all the things Arthur does. Don't forget, there was also that story about him having the kidney problem. What would people say if the Spurs had picked him, and the suspicions were true? Every person here would be posting about how stupid they were for drafting a guy with a suspected bad kidney.

That's ridiculous. If Gist could do all the things that Arthur is doing the Spurs would have signed him this year.

[Tully365]

The evidence is the fact that they picked Hill. Why would you pick a backup point guard (and unproven at that) with your first round pick? Especially when the Spurs already have a young star at that position. To me it's blatantly obvious that they panicked.

He's a combo guard. You'd prefer Chalmers, who like Vaughn, went to a more high profile school? The Spurs worked out Hill and Chalmers together and Hill outplayed him. I'd say that makes the choice a good one. Chalmers has already gotten in trouble for smoking pot in the hotel room at rookie camp, which kinda shows that he's probably not terribly smart. The Spurs don't want a Jailblazer environment.

[tlongII]

Nice way to avoid the topic. The Spurs picked Scola and Splitter recently, so your theory is completely wrong. The Blazers have been awful for 5 years, picked in the lottery every year, and still can't make the playoffs... what does that say about them?

Remind me. How many games have Scola and Splitter played for the Spurs?

[Tully365]

You seriously think that the Spurs went in to the draft with one piece of paper that said Batum on it, and then when batum was picked, RC and Pop looked at each other and said oh shit, whadda we do now?? That's ridiculous.

[Tully365]

Remind me. How many games have Scola and Splitter played for the Spurs?

You said they haven't picked anyone good. You were wrong.

[tlongII]

He's a combo guard. You'd prefer Chalmers, who like Vaughn, went to a more high profile school? The Spurs worked out Hill and Chalmers together and Hill outplayed him. I'd say that makes the choice a good one. Chalmers has already gotten in trouble for smoking pot in the hotel room at rookie camp, which kinda shows that he's probably not terribly smart. The Spurs don't want a Jailblazer environment.

WTH does Chalmers have to do with this? The Spurs biggest need is front line help.

[Obstructed_View]

The evidence is the fact that they picked Hill. Why would you pick a backup point guard (and unproven at that) with your first round pick? Especially when the Spurs already have a young star at that position. To me it's blatantly obvious that they panicked.

They had two players they had circled going into the draft. They had one of them taken out from under them, and when they heard that another team was thinking of taking the other player, they grabbed him. One could make the argument that it's blatantly obvious that they weren't going to allow anyone to do that to them again.

Hill's a proven scorer and defender, and probably more proven than Batum. The Spurs have a young star at the point, and have been looking for a backup for him years, going back to when they picked Beno in the first round, and they've suffered through bargain basement castoffs in order to keep their heads above water, while giving him more minutes than they want to because of it. Why would you be surprised that they'd take him?

[Tully365]

You still like the Portland move of trading Deron Williams? That worked out pretty good.

[tlongII]

You said they haven't picked anyone good. You were wrong.

So you're saying taking a couple of players that never play for you is good drafting? Got it.

[Obstructed_View]

WTH does Chalmers have to do with this? The Spurs biggest need is front line help.

If the Spurs' biggest need is front line help, then why didn't Gist get invited to camp?

[tlongII]

They had two players they had circled going into the draft. They had one of them taken out from under them, and when they heard that another team was thinking of taking the other player, they grabbed him. One could make the argument that it's blatantly obvious that they weren't going to allow anyone to do that to them again.

Hill's a proven scorer and defender, and probably more proven than Batum. The Spurs have a young star at the point, and have been looking for a backup for him years, going back to when they picked Beno in the first round, and they've suffered through bargain basement castoffs in order to keep their heads above water, while giving him more minutes than they want to because of it. Why would you be surprised that they'd take him?

How is Hill a proven scorer? He played for IUPUI. You can't prove anything playing in that podunk league. Based on summer league I'd say he's a proven non-scorer.

The Spurs have Vaughn to back up Parker already and they also have Mason (who's doing a nice job). What they don't have is any decent young bigs.

[tlongII]

If the Spurs' biggest need is front line help, then why didn't Gist get invited to camp?

I'm guessing it's because he sucks.

[tlongII]

I'm guessing it's because he sucks.

Because if he doesn't, then the Spurs FO is even worse than I thought.

[tlongII]

You still like the Portland move of trading Deron Williams? That worked out pretty good.

When we traded down in that draft it was extremely stupid. I admit it. Fortunately the tools that were running our FO at the time, Steve Patterson and John Nash, have been shit-canned. Our Front Office is damn good now. The Spurs FO used to be good. IMO, they have lost their edge.

[Tully365]

When we traded down in that draft it was extremely stupid. I admit it. Fortunately the tools that were running our FO at the time, Steve Patterson and John Nash, have been shit-canned. Our Front Office is damn good now. The Spurs FO used to be good. IMO, they have lost their edge.

We'll see. It's easy to assemble a few good players when you are in the lottery every year. If they miss the playoffs this year and Oden is the new Bowie... you might be singing a different tune.

[Tully365]

Losing out on Splitter was the result of a changing global economy, and had nothing to do with the talents of the FO. The choice was still a very good one IMO.

[Obstructed_View]

How is Hill a proven scorer? He played for IUPUI. You can't prove anything playing in that podunk league. Based on summer league I'd say he's a proven non-scorer.

He scored more in pre-season than he did in summer league, which is better opposition. If you have to eliminate his entire college career and then cherry-pick his worst performances to make your argument, then it's not much of an argument.


The Spurs have Vaughn to back up Parker
Vaughn is a third string point guard. Thanks for playing.


and they also have Mason (who's doing a nice job). What they don't have is any decent young bigs.

Mason is indeed doing a nice job, but he wasn't signed as a point guard. Without Hill or Mason, the Spurs don't have any decent young guards. Mahinmi is decent and young, Gist is in the pipeline and they may have hopes of bringing Splitter in next year. They also had designs on that Batum guy, who's pretty fucking good. I wouldn't have had a problem with Arthur, but I try not to judge someone else's decisions after having the benefit of hindsight.

[Obstructed_View]

I'm guessing it's because he sucks.

Given that you've doomed George Hill to being a NBA washout due to his performance in summer league, how is it you come to the conclusion that Gist sucks when he was really good in summer league?

[Obstructed_View]

Losing out on Splitter was the result of a changing global economy, and had nothing to do with the talents of the FO. The choice was still a very good one IMO.

Losing out on Splitter was the result of a fucked-up NBA technicality, and the Spurs' mistaken impression that Splitter was going to give up millions of dollars just to keep his word to the team. The Spurs should have known the rules before they picked him at that spot. I have a whole lot more problem with that pick than I do taking Hill earlier than he was projected, particularly if he's one of the players they wanted. At this point I'd be really happy with Batum if the Spurs had jumped up and gotten him, even if people were saying they reached to get him.

[tlongII]

He scored more in pre-season than he did in summer league, which is better opposition. If you have to eliminate his entire college career and then cherry-pick his worst performances to make your argument, then it's not much of an argument.


Vaughn is a third string point guard. Thanks for playing.



Mason is indeed doing a nice job, but he wasn't signed as a point guard. Without Hill or Mason, the Spurs don't have any decent young guards. Mahinmi is decent and young, Gist is in the pipeline and they may have hopes of bringing Splitter in next year. They also had designs on that Batum guy, who's pretty fucking good. I wouldn't have had a problem with Arthur, but I try not to judge someone else's decisions after having the benefit of hindsight.

Mahinmi sucks. The Spurs want him to play center and he's WAY too skinny. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe the Spurs own the rights to Gist. He was a 2nd round pick, wasn't he? I believe you only retain the rights to 1st round picks.

The Spurs DO have Tony Parker who is a young All Star caliber point guard. The Spurs DON'T have any quality young bigs.

[picnroll]

Remind me. How many games have Scola and Splitter played for the Spurs?
11 minutes less than Oden for the Blazers

[Anti.Hero]

ha. There are no young athletic bigs allowed on this team.

Refer to chapter 6c section 9.3

[tlongII]

Given that you've doomed George Hill to being a NBA washout due to his performance in summer league, how is it you come to the conclusion that Gist sucks when he was really good in summer league?

If Gist is good then why don't you explain why the Spurs didn't sign him?

[Tully365]

11 minutes less than Oden for the Blazers

:lol

[picnroll]

How is Hill a proven scorer? He played for IUPUI. You can't prove anything playing in that podunk league. Based on summer league I'd say he's a proven non-scorer.
Based on summer league play I'd say Batum sucks.

[tlongII]

Based on ummer league play I'd say Batum sucks.

I'm sorry. I forgot how much Hill is tearing it up in the regular season so far.

[picnroll]

I'm sorry. I forgot how much Hill is tearing it up in the regular season so far.
How's Oden doing?

[Obstructed_View]

If Gist is good then why don't you explain why the Spurs didn't sign him?
I've said that the reason I think he wasn't invited to camp is because Pop fell in love with Tolliver when he made those threes in summer league, and then went home and pasted Tolliver's face on the Robert Horry pillow that he humps every night before he goes to sleep. He didn't want anyone outplaying Tolliver in camp and making it hard to cut Gist, so he sent him to Europe. That's a little outlandish, but it makes more sense than just throwing the term "he sucks" around despite all evidence to the contrary. There's a chance that Pop has degenerated into the smallball mentality and just doesn't see that the Spurs have any need at forward once everyone comes back healthy.

And unless I'm mistaken, the Spurs own Gist's rights for two years.

But if Mahinmi sucks too, then how did Gist not even get a camp invitation given the Spurs' dire need at forward?

[Tully365]

Losing out on Splitter was the result of a fucked-up NBA technicality, and the Spurs' mistaken impression that Splitter was going to give up millions of dollars just to keep his word to the team. The Spurs should have known the rules before they picked him at that spot. I have a whole lot more problem with that pick than I do taking Hill earlier than he was projected, particularly if he's one of the players they wanted. At this point I'd be really happy with Batum if the Spurs had jumped up and gotten him, even if people were saying they reached to get him.

Hard to say-- just a few months ago, the Euro was kicking the Dollar's ass, but now we are all probably headed for a global recession and many euroteams may regret their recent expenditures.

I still don't understand the Gist move. i've researched it, and can't find out if the move was made primarily by Gist & his agent to make more money, or if it was at the request of the Spurs. I wish he was on the Spurs, for sure. He may be the combo forward to Hill's combo guard that makes the Spurs, along with FA Bosh or Nowitzki, a powerhouse team for another decade.

[Obstructed_View]

I'm sorry. I forgot how much Hill is tearing it up in the regular season so far.

It's like you stick your chin out for an Oden smack just for the fun of it.

[DPG21920]

Hard to say-- just a few months ago, the Euro was kicking the Dollar's ass, but now we are all probably headed for a global recession and many euroteams may regret their recent expenditures.

I still don't understand the Gist move. i've researched it, and can't find out if the move was made primarily by Gist & his agent to make more money, or if it was at the request of the Spurs. I wish he was on the Spurs, for sure. He may be the combo forward to Hill's combo guard that makes the Spurs, along with FA Bosh or Nowitzki, a powerhouse team for another decade.

I could of sworn that it was pre-determined as soon as they drafted him. They knew he was going to Europe before SL even started IIRC

[Obstructed_View]

Hard to say-- just a few months ago, the Euro was kicking the Dollar's ass, but now we are all probably headed for a global recession and many euroteams may regret their recent expenditures.

The strength of the Euro had little to do with Splitter's decision; the Spurs had a rookie pay scale that they were required to stick to and Tau had no such thing. The Spurs couldn't even come close even if the dollar were really strong. I think I remember reading that he made 8 times more money than he could have coming to the NBA. The Spurs could have gotten it in the neighborhood if he'd been picked one spot later.

[toki9]

because Pop fell in love with Tolliver when he made those threes in summer league, and then went home and pasted Tolliver's face on the Robert Horry pillow that he humps every night before he goes to sleep.

Dude, that mental image is-just-so-wrong...thanks a lot...:bang

[Obstructed_View]

I could of sworn that it was pre-determined as soon as they drafted him. They knew he was going to Europe before SL even started IIRC

I don't remember that. He was awfully damn good in summer league. I think his performance merited an invitation to camp, but maybe the timing wouldn't work out.

[Obstructed_View]

Dude, that mental image is-just-so-wrong...thanks a lot...:bang

Sorry, but I needed to vent. :lol

[Tully365]

I could of sworn that it was pre-determined as soon as they drafted him. They knew he was going to Europe before SL even started IIRC

It's possible... I think it's a weird move. Damn it, maybe that sonofabitch tlong is actually correct about one or two things!

Thanks for ruining my night DPG!

[Spur-Addict]

yea! the spurs should have taken batum. but thats impossible isnt it?

You sir are correct, which makes this thread a joke.


The evidence is the fact that they picked Hill. Why would you pick a backup point guard (and unproven at that) with your first round pick? Especially when the Spurs already have a young star at that position. To me it's blatantly obvious that they panicked.

No player is proven on the NBA level until they do so, if you wish to specify the question further then maybe i'm wrong. But, if we're dealing with the assumption that TLong is making the reference to being proven on the NBA level then i'm correct. If you are somehow linking college success to NBA success then that's a stretch. Some pan out, and some do not. Some who are thought to pan out, do not. Some who are viewed as probably not panning out, pan out. Also, what is defined as panning out varies from person to person.


How's Oden doing?

:lol

[Obstructed_View]

No player is proven on the NBA level until they do so, if you wish to specify the question further then maybe i'm wrong. But, if we're dealing with the assumption that TLong is making the reference to being proven on the NBA level then i'm correct. If you are somehow linking college success to NBA success then that's a stretch. Some pan out, and some do not. Some who are thought to pan out, do not. Some who are viewed as probably not panning out, pan out. Also, what is defined as panning out varies from person to person.

And just to clairify Tlong's position: George Hill is unproven, until he played in the summer league, which proves he sucks, and preseason doesn't count so he's unproven. And sucks.

[Spur-Addict]

And just to clairify Tlong's position: George Hill is unproven, until he played in the summer league, which proves he sucks, and preseason doesn't count so he's unproven. And sucks.

:lol---I see. Summer league, I must agree, is the greatest indicator of skill for a potential NBA player. Excuse me, how foolish of me to think otherwise. :lol

[picnroll]

I think Hill will prove to be a solid pick. Too bad Spurs couldn't have bought a pick and landed Batum as well.

Maybe the economic downturn and hard renegotiation on the CBA that will result will end up with a hard cap and Portland will be losing some of their bought talent that they've picked up in the draft, like Fernandez and Batum.

[timvp]

As much potential as Batum showed he had and how perfectly it seems he'd eventually fit into the Spurs system, I'm not sure having Batum this year would have helped the Spurs' chances of winning the championship. If the Spurs had Batum, he'd likely be taking Udoka's minutes. How much better is he than Udoka right now? On top of that, if you take away Hill from the backup PG spot, the Spurs likely would have been stuck with Vaughn again.

Obviously it'd be nice to have Batum in the pipeline but if Udoka steps up, Mason continues to blossom, Bowen regains at least 90% of his usual defensive skill and Ginobili comes back healthy, I don't see where Batum would have gotten his minutes. Hill, if he plays like he did in preseason, can fill a major spot of need.

[tlongII]

As much potential as Batum showed he had and how perfectly it seems he'd eventually fit into the Spurs system, I'm not sure having Batum this year would have helped the Spurs' chances of winning the championship. If the Spurs had Batum, he'd likely be taking Udoka's minutes. How much better is he than Udoka right now? On top of that, if you take away Hill from the backup PG spot, the Spurs likely would have been stuck with Vaughn again.

Obviously it'd be nice to have Batum in the pipeline but if Udoka steps up, Mason continues to blossom, Bowen regains at least 90% of his usual defensive skill and Ginobili comes back healthy, I don't see where Batum would have gotten his minutes. Hill, if he plays like he did in preseason, can fill a major spot of need.

I disagree. At this point it appears the Spurs are stuck with Vaughn this year anyway. I believe Hill would have played at least in the Portland game if Popovich had confidence in him. Udoka and Bowen are too small to effectively defend most 3's in the league.

[timvp]

I disagree. At this point it appears the Spurs are stuck with Vaughn this year anyway. I believe Hill would have played at least in the Portland game if Popovich had confidence in him. Udoka and Bowen are too small to effectively defend most 3's in the league.Hill is injured.

:lol @ Bowen not being able to defend most small forwards. You haven't watched the last seven years?

[tlongII]

Hill is injured.

:lol @ Bowen not being able to defend most small forwards. You haven't watched the last seven years?

Funny how Hill has been medically cleared since last Monday if he's so injured? I'm sure you're aware that this year's Bowen isn't the same as the last 7 years.

[Blackjack]

As much potential as Batum showed he had and how perfectly it seems he'd eventually fit into the Spurs system, I'm not sure having Batum this year would have helped the Spurs' chances of winning the championship. If the Spurs had Batum, he'd likely be taking Udoka's minutes. How much better is he than Udoka right now? On top of that, if you take away Hill from the backup PG spot, the Spurs likely would have been stuck with Vaughn again.

Obviously it'd be nice to have Batum in the pipeline but if Udoka steps up, Mason continues to blossom, Bowen regains at least 90% of his usual defensive skill and Ginobili comes back healthy, I don't see where Batum would have gotten his minutes. Hill, if he plays like he did in preseason, can fill a major spot of need.


Batum brings size and athleticism on the wing that no player on this team can bring defensively.

I agree that he's more of prospect for down the line, but he probably could have come in useful (in the short-term) for spot minutes or a particular matchup.

I brought it up in another thread, but had things fallen just a little differently? The Spurs could have wound up with Batum and Chalmers/Hill. :smokin

[Spur-Addict]

Funny how Hill has been medically cleared since last Monday if he's so injured? I'm sure you're aware that this year's Bowen isn't the same as the last 7 years.

I'm beginning to question your thought process.

[tlongII]

I'm beginning to question your thought process.

Question away. I thought Hill's thumb was sprained, not broken? As for Bowen, it's clear to me that he can't guard anybody any more.

[timvp]

Funny how Hill has been medically cleared since last Monday if he's so injured? I'm sure you're aware that this year's Bowen isn't the same as the last 7 years.Being medically cleared and Pop cleared is two entirely different things. Pop obviously doesn't want him playing with the splint on his thumb and would rather wait until he can just wear a wrap.

And I personally will wait more than 40 minuets of action before declaring Bowen can no long guard most small forwards :lol

[timvp]

Batum brings size and athleticism on the wing that no player on this team can bring defensively.

I agree that he's more of prospect for down the line, but he probably could have come in useful (in the short-term) for spot minutes or a particular matchup.Batum looks like he's going to be pretty damn good down the line. He looks like the French Scottie Pippen right now.

That said, to win a championship this year, I trust Udoka more than a 19-year-old Batum. Obviously in two or three years Batum will be much better than Udoka.

[Spur-Addict]

Question away. I thought Hill's thumb was sprained, not broken? As for Bowen, it's clear to me that he can't guard anybody any more.

So you believe that a PROVEN top defensive NBA player is unable to guard at a high level based on two games?

Do you also believe the skill, potential, and reality of an NBA rookie is anything but unproven since he hasn't played an NBA game due to an injury?

It's not as though he has already played an NBA game and is accustomed to playing with minor ailments, or is he?

[tlongII]

So you believe that a PROVEN top defensive NBA player is unable to guard at a high level based on two games?

Do you also believe the skill, potential, and reality of an NBA rookie is anything but unproven since he hasn't played an NBA game due to an injury?

It's not as though he has already played an NBA game and is accustomed to playing with minor ailments, or is he?

I believe Bowen is 37 years old. Do you?

[Dramon]

Luck has so much to do with the draft. The Spurs wanted Parker but Boston, Indy, etc. almost took him. The Spurs got lucky and snapped him up.

They mised Batum by one spot in the draft. Just bad luck.

Same with Splitter. They made a great pick but didn't get any benefit due to bad luck -- no way to sign him under NBA rules.

Mahinmi and Hill, on the other hand, were picks the Spurs had way ahead of where other teams had them -- if they don't work out we can't blame luck.

See, I used to write out fact-based responses like yours that make real sense. But then I realized that noone here pays attention to reason and this is ST.

So i'm gonna disagree with you. Luck of the draft and the fact that Blazers picked Batum ahead of the spurs has nothing to do with the reason we didn't get Batum. The reason we didn't get Batum is because the Spurs FO doesn't care enough to surround Tim Duncan with quality players. RC Buford should be fired for not keeping Splitter and failing to draft Batum. The Lakers got Pau Gasol last year and all we get is Kurt Thomas? Cmon, what is the Spurs FO doing?

Boston was able to bring in Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen to help Paul Pierce and they won the championship. Unless, the FO is able to bring in some talent to help out our BIG 3 there is no way that we will win the championship this year. I've read that Allen Iverson might get traded from Denver and I read a post about how we should get Michael Redd. I think that if we could pick both of them up we might have a shot but our FO doesn't care enough to surround Ginobili, Parker, and Duncan with talent.

[Spur-Addict]

I believe Bowen is 37 years old. Do you?

I believe you didn't answer the question.

Also, I don't care how old someone is as long as the do their job. Furthermore, I will not judge the capacity of someone to perform their job based on two games.

So, my questions still stand.

[tlongII]

I believe you didn't answer the question.

Also, I don't care how old someone is as long as the do their job. Furthermore, I will not judge the capacity of someone to perform their job based on two games.

So, my questions still stand.

Bowen can't do the job anymore. It's probably because he's too old.

[Spur-Addict]

Bowen can't do the job anymore. It's probably because he's too old.

And he can't do the job anymore because of, two games?

[Dramon]

I believe you didn't answer the question.

Also, I don't care how old someone is as long as the do their job. Furthermore, I will not judge the capacity of someone to perform their job based on two games.

So, my questions still stand.

He did, but he didn't answer it directly. It's just two games so it's too early to tell how far he's dropped up but even before the season started it should be accepted that Bowen is going to lose a step. The real question is how much of a step that is. Once you hit the upper 30's every year hits your harder and harder.

Bowen is a smart, if not "cheap" defender so i'm sure he'll be able to still play defense on a high-level but his defense isn't going to be any better this year than it was last year, and it sure as hell won't be better than it was two years ago.

[RsxPiimp]

blazers stole another one in da draft

[RsxPiimp]

Bowen can't do the job anymore. It's probably because he's too old.

dude thats like sayin


oden is really an old dude posing as a teenager because he got injured...again

[Spur-Addict]

See, in order for you to base your claim that he cannot do it anymore, you must have some type of visual confirmation. You are rushing to judgement. Who's denying that he's going to lose a step? All i'm saying is, how can you make this judgement on two games? So, to make any confirmation on a player all we need is two games? Are we serious here?

[Blackjack]

Batum looks like he's going to be pretty damn good down the line. He looks like the French Scottie Pippen right now.

That said, to win a championship this year, I trust Udoka more than a 19-year-old Batum. Obviously in two or three years Batum will be much better than Udoka.

The only thing I differ with you is that it's an either/or with Udoka and Batum.

My point was that, the only wings on the Spurs above 6'5" are Bowen and Ginobili.

Batum might not be ready for primetime come playoffs, but he could have helped a lot during the regular season and possibly have a moment or two if given the chance during the playoffs.

I remember seeing a story about Batum being disappointed about not landing with the Spurs, so maybe there's a chance he wears the silver and black someday.

I'm not holding my breath, or going to cry about what could have been, I'll just say it looks like the Blazers got themselves a gem.

[DPG21920]

It is part of the deal. You cannot be mad at anyone. I like these stories to a certain degree because it shows all of the Spurs FO haters that they are trying to do things. Sometimes things just do not work out. You learn from it, and grow as a franchise.

[tlongII]

See, in order for you to base your claim that he cannot do it anymore, you must have some type of visual confirmation. You are rushing to judgement. Who's denying that he's going to lose a step? All i'm saying is, how can you make this judgement on two games? So, to make any confirmation on a player all we need is two games? Are we serious here?

How many games do you need to see? Defense isn't a skill where you're hot one night and not another night. Defense is about effort and quickness primarily. It doesn't take more than a couple of games to see that Bowen doesn't have the quickness he use to.

[Spur-Addict]

How many games do you need to see? Defense isn't a skill where you're hot one night and not another night. Defense is about effort and quickness primarily. It doesn't take more than a couple of games to see that Bowen doesn't have the quickness he use to.

Are there games when good defenders get lit up?

Or do NBA defenders who are good show up every single night, night after night?

[Obstructed_View]

See, in order for you to base your claim that he cannot do it anymore, you must have some type of visual confirmation. You are rushing to judgement. Who's denying that he's going to lose a step? All i'm saying is, how can you make this judgement on two games? So, to make any confirmation on a player all we need is two games? Are we serious here?

Um, he judged Hill based on zero games. What are you expecting here?

[Spur-Addict]

Um, he judged Hill based on zero games. What are you expecting here?

Maybe a change in judging criteria? Is that too much to ask? :lol

Probably, but I can try, can I not? :lol

[Obstructed_View]

Funny how Hill has been medically cleared since last Monday if he's so injured?


Hill, who is nursing a sprained left thumb, practiced Monday and has been medically cleared to play against Phoenix. All that is stopping him is his head coach's own trepidation.

“We're just not sure how confident he'll be, and how confident I'll be that he won't get hurt again,” Popovich said. “He's had a really good preseason and I don't want to put that in jeopardy.”

Hill, a backup point guard taken 26th overall in the June draft, has been forced to wear a plastic splint on his left (non-shooting) hand. Of utmost concern is how the splint prevents Hill from cleanly catching a ball passed to him.

“It's a problem,” Popovich said. “Rather than catch it, he stops it. Stop and control, rather than catch.”

For now, Hill's availability will be a game-time decision. He hasn't played since spraining the thumb in an Oct. 14 preseason game against Detroit.

Popovich had planned to play Hill in Friday's 96-93 loss to Miami in the preseason finale, under instructions that he not gamble for steals or drive to the basket or do anything else to unnecessarily put his bum thumb at risk. The game was so competitive, however, Popovich thought better of playing Hill at all.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/spurs/Injury_puts_rookies_debut_in_doubt.html

[Obstructed_View]

Maybe a change in judging criteria? Is that too much to ask? :lol

Probably, but I can try, can I not? :lol

Why not try? I did earlier in the thread. As you can see from the above post and the facts refuting it, the attempt wasn't successful.

[tlongII]

Are there games when good defenders get lit up?

Or do NBA defenders who are good show up every single night, night after night?

For the most part good defenders show up every night. Of course you can't always stop your man when he is shooting lights out, but you can consistently stay in good position. I saw Bowen out of position a lot the other night.

[SenorSpur]

As much potential as Batum showed he had and how perfectly it seems he'd eventually fit into the Spurs system, I'm not sure having Batum this year would have helped the Spurs' chances of winning the championship. If the Spurs had Batum, he'd likely be taking Udoka's minutes. How much better is he than Udoka right now? On top of that, if you take away Hill from the backup PG spot, the Spurs likely would have been stuck with Vaughn again.

I disagree. At the rapid rate in which Bowen has declined, Udoka is going to get more crunch time minutes anyway. Besides, it is Udoka whom Pop is now using at the 4 in a small-ball lineup. Having Batum on board, Pop could have easily used him at the 2,3, or 4 positions. Besides, he's already shown that he can guard each one of those positions too. Who wouldn't want that type of versatility on their roster? Having a player of Batum's size and skill would have given Pop greater roster flexibility.

As for George Hill, if landing Batum meant they wouldn't have been able to land Hill, I could've lived with that. Players as immensely talented and gifted as Batum do not come around often - and they certainly do not fall that far in the draft. Besides, the Spurs could've simply kept drafted and kept Goran Dragic for themselves as backup PG. Those are issues I'm sure Pop would've loved to have had.

Obviously it'd be nice to have Batum in the pipeline but if Udoka steps up, Mason continues to blossom, Bowen regains at least 90% of his usual defensive skill and Ginobili comes back healthy, I don't see where Batum would have gotten his minutes. Hill, if he plays like he did in preseason, can fill a major spot of need.

Disagree again. I've already seen enough of Bowen at the end of last season and the start of this one to realize that our much-heralded, defensive wizard is starting to decline - and fast. Pop needs to start managing and limiting his minutes. At this point and outside of Udoka, Pop has no transitional plan or player in place to offset that decline. Udoka is no where near the perimeter defensive stopper that Bowen is. He may never be. Batum is a player whose combined skill set and physical talents ARE NOT on this roster. Besides you're forgetting that the last time Pop was faced with such a dilemma with a similarly-talented young player, he ended up starting a 19 year-old PG from France - to the absolute surprise of many. Screw all this positional heirarchy. If the Batum's talents were such that it warranted him getting the nod over a veteran - so be it. If Pop couldn't figure out how to use a player, as gifted as Batum, he should step down as coach.

[Obstructed_View]

For the most part good defenders show up every night. Of course you can't always stop your man when he is shooting lights out, but you can consistently stay in good position. I saw Bowen out of position a lot the other night.

Being out of position is a mental mistake; it has nothing to do with losing a step.

[Spur-Addict]

For the most part good defenders show up every night. Of course you can't always stop your man when he is shooting lights out, but you can consistently stay in good position. I saw Bowen out of position a lot the other night.

Yup. So, does for the most part mean two games are unacceptable? I'm still looking for answer to this two game thing. Ya know?

[tlongII]

Yup. So, does for the most part mean two games are unacceptable? I'm still looking for answer to this two game thing. Ya know?

You've lost me. I'm arguing that the 2 games we've seen are an acceptable sample size to guage Bowen's defensive skill decline.

[Obstructed_View]

You've lost me. I'm arguing that the 2 games we've seen are an acceptable sample size to guage Bowen's defensive skill decline.

And that's all you need to know about tlong. /thread

[Spur-Addict]

For the most part good defenders show up every night. Of course you can't always stop your man when he is shooting lights out, but you can consistently stay in good position. I saw Bowen out of position a lot the other night.


You've lost me. I'm arguing that the 2 games we've seen are an acceptable sample size to guage Bowen's defensive skill decline.

So, no matter what, for the most part a good defender isn't out of position for most of the game? I can't agree.

I understand that you are saying because of two games this is a good indication of a decline.

What i'm saying to you is, is it really plausible that I can judge someone based on two games?

I seen Paul Pierce play like shit and shoot twenty percent tonight, oh no, Pierce is on the decline.

[SenorSpur]

Being out of position is a mental mistake; it has nothing to do with losing a step.

Bowen is too smart and savvy to be out of position that much and that frequently. In my estimation, he's losing foot speed,

[tlongII]

So, no matter what, for the most part a good defender isn't out of position for most of the game? I can't agree.

I understand that you are saying because of two games this is a good indication of a decline.

What i'm saying to you is, is it really plausible that I can judge someone based on two games?

I seen Paul Pierce play like shit and shoot twenty percent tonight, oh no, Pierce is on the decline.

I guess I'm just really good at recognizing this then. Don't blame me for having this innate ability. Apparently it will take you and some others here a litttle longer. Ten games maybe?

[Spur-Addict]

I guess I'm just really good at recognizing this then. Don't blame me for having this innate ability. Apparently it will take you and some others here a litttle longer. Ten games maybe?

Ten to fifteen games is justifiable. I have nothing wrong with the statement that Bruce Bowen is declining, I just have an issue with your reasons for why he is declining.

[Manufan909]

Not trying to hate on the OP, but I really wish the title could be changed. Most posters here already fucking know Batum was stolen from us, If the FO had the chance they most likely would have taken him at 26. Seeing it everytime I skim the threads is getting annoying quick.

That probably means I should be on ST less, but I love my Spurs!!!(technically the Spurs now that I'm a Huntsvillian):hat

[Obstructed_View]

Bowen is too smart and savvy to be out of position that much and that frequently. In my estimation, he's losing foot speed,

I'll say it again: being out of position is a mental mistake; it has nothing to do with foot speed. Maybe Bowen has lost a step. Maybe he's no longer effective, but he played stupid the last two games. I'd personally like to see him for a little while longer before I cut him. I'd definitely like to see him when he starts out where he's supposed to be. Duncan's defense has been terrible so far as well, and he looks stronger and quicker than I've seen him in three or four years.

[SenorSpur]

I'll say it again: being out of position is a mental mistake; it has nothing to do with foot speed. Maybe Bowen has lost a step. Maybe he's no longer effective, but he played stupid the last two games. I'd personally like to see him for a little while longer before I cut him. I'd definitely like to see him when he starts out where he's supposed to be. Duncan's defense has been terrible so far as well, and he looks stronger and quicker than I've seen him in three or four years.

I read what you said the first time. I just disagree. One thing Bowen isn't and that's stupid. Why is it so hard for folks to admit the obvious - that as these players age their skills start to decline? Bowen is 37 years old. This decline didn't start this season. I noticed it during the WCF versus the Fakers, where Koke, for the first time I can remember, made Bowen look rather stationary and ordinary. It happens. Only now, after 2 games, it looks as though the process has accelerated.

I'm not saying he's no longer functional, but to expect him to shoulder the same defensive responsibilities as previous years may be asking a bit too much. Besides that, Bowen hasn't scored a freaking point yet. He's the defensive equivalent of Finley. Where Finley is an offensive one-trick pony, Bowen is a defensive one. If his defensive skills are not up to par, he's of little benefit because he offense is virtually non-existent

Bowen is too much of a pro and has to much pride to ever give in to his own mortality. It's the job of the coach and the FO to plan for this type of transition - not the player. As much as I hate to agree with Tlong, he was right. The FO just became lazy, over-confident and, in my opinion, negligently irresponsible for ignoring the gaping hole at the backup SF position for the past 5 years and for not doing whatever was necessary to secure Batum.

If I'm right and Bowen's has started this rapid descent, that will doom the Spurs defensive philosophy.

[Obstructed_View]

I read what you said the first time. I just disagree. One thing Bowen isn't and that's stupid. Why is it so hard for folks to admit the obvious - that as these players age their skills start to decline? Bowen is 37 years old. This decline didn't start this season. I noticed it during the WCF versus the Fakers, where Koke, for the first time I can remember, made Bowen look rather stationary and ordinary. It happens. Only now, after 2 games, it looks as though the process has accelerated.

I'm not saying he's no longer functional, but to expect him to shoulder the same defensive responsibilities as previous years may be asking a bit too much. Besides that, Bowen hasn't scored a freaking point yet. He's the defensive equivalent of Finley. Where Finley is an offensive one-trick pony, Bowen is a defensive one. If his defensive skills are not up to par, he's of little benefit because he offense is virtually non-existent

Bowen is too much of a pro and has to much pride to ever give in to his own mortality. It's the job of the coach and the FO to plan for this type of transition - not the player. As much as I hate to agree with Tlong, he was right. The FO just became lazy, over-confident and, in my opinion, negligently irresponsible for ignoring the gaping hole at the backup SF position for the past 5 years and for not doing whatever was necessary to secure Batum.

If I'm right and Bowen's has started this rapid descent, that will doom the Spurs defensive philosophy.


I have no problem accepting that Bowen may have lost it. It's absolutely inevitable that it's going to happen sooner or later. I'm simply not convinced of that fact by two games. Kobe hit every stinking thing he put up against the Spurs; I don't think any version of Bowen was going to change that. Again, we'll know in another week or so. Bowen may not be stupid, but he's made stupid defensive mistakes so far, as has everyone on the Spurs. It may take some time for them to play together well; if the improvement from game one to game two is any indication, there will be further defensive improvement going forward.

If Bowen's play continues as it has to this point, the Spurs simply won't be able to hide him, and his minutes will shrink to nothing. He's quite clearly the worst player on the team right now. It's possible that he's not in game shape yet, it's possible that he has an injury we don't know about, and it's possible that the Spurs aren't used to playing together yet. It took smallball several games before the Spurs patched up the holes and mistakes, and this year's roster, plus the missing players, is a much bigger transisition to make. Again, there's no chance that an old Bowen won't make itself obvious very soon. I just think it's too soon. A guy can have a two game funk. It wouldn't be the first time.

Moreover, I agree that the Spurs' FO has missed out on filling what will be a huge void if Bowen is indeed a shell of his former self, but a lot of that is circumstance. They brought in guards because the free agent market had more forwards available. They then missed out on the forwards and (in my opinion) are hoping to develop the closest thing they have to Bowen's successor in Austin while they get the roster healthy again.

Missing out on Batum hurts. I'm going to be typing that a lot this year.

[SenorSpur]

I have no problem accepting that Bowen may have lost it. It's absolutely inevitable that it's going to happen sooner or later. I'm dimply not convinced of that fact by two games. Kobe hit every stinking thing he put up against the Spurs; I don't think any version of Bowen was going to change that. Again, we'll know in another week or so. Bowen may not be stupid, but he's made stupid defensive mistakes so far, as has everyone on the Spurs. It may take some time for them to play together well; if the improvement from game one to game two is any indication, there will be further defensive improvement going forward.

If Bowen's play continues as it has to this point, the Spurs simply won't be able to hide him, and his minutes will shrink to nothing. He's quite clearly the worst player on the team right now. It's possible that he's not in game shape yet, it's possible that he has an injury we don't know about, and it's possible that the Spurs aren't used to playing together yet. It took smallball several games before the Spurs patched up the holes and mistakes, and this year's roster, plus the missing players, is a much bigger transisition to make. Again, there's no chance that an old Bowen won't make itself obvious very soon. I just think it's too soon. A guy can have a two game funk. It wouldn't be the first time.

You're being way too kind about Bowen, but I do understand. First off, Bowen is routinely the best-conditioned athlete on the team. He always keeps himself in top shape. He's never been out of shape, nor has he been injured, at any time since he's been a Spur. Second, I saw enough of him late last season to warrant concern. He had trouble containing certain players that he generally had success with. Pop putting Bowen on Chris Paul was simply unfair, so I don't count that. But it bears out, the perhaps Bruce is no longer capable of shutting down every kind of perimeter player around.


Moreover, I agree that the Spurs' FO has missed out on filling what will be a huge void if Bowen is indeed a shell of his former self, but a lot of that is circumstance. They brought in guards because the free agent market had more forwards available. They then missed out on the forwards and (in my opinion) are hoping to develop the closest thing they have to Bowen's successor in Austin while they get the roster healthy again.

Missing out on Batum hurts. I'm going to be typing that a lot this year.

My level of pissedoffness on this is two-fold. First off, a player of Batum's skills and talent is rarely found at the end of the first round. As long as the Spurs are drafting toward the end of the round, the potential of getting a steal like this are not very good. Second, the FO foolishly gambled on Bowen's year-to-year productivity, without having an adequate backup player on hand to offset his decline. This has been an annual gamble for the past 5 years and, to date, there is nothing on the roster and nothing coming in the pipeline.

Fans and pundits alike keep bringing up Udoka as an heir apparent to Bowen. I admit Udoka is a nice complimentary player, tough-minded and strong. However, I don't see him as the eventual answer because he's too short, not nearly long or athletic enough, and is not in Bowen's league defensively. This team badly needed to have added a player of Batum's youth, talent, and length. They should've done whatever possible to make it happen. After all, the kid is already an accomplished defender at 19!

I hope I'm wrong about Bowen and rumors of his decline are indeed greatly exaggerrated. Either way, Portland leapfrogging them to take this kid, will be a move that the Spurs will regret for many, many seasons.

[Obstructed_View]

You're being way too kind about Bowen, but I do understand. First off, Bowen is routinely the best-conditioned athlete on the team. He always keeps himself in top shape. He's never been out of shape, nor has he been injured, at any time since he's been a Spur. Second, I saw enough of him late last season to warrant concern. He had trouble containing certain players that he generally had success with. Pop putting Bowen on Chris Paul was simply unfair, so I don't count that. But it bears out, the perhaps Bruce is no longer capable of shutting down every kind of perimeter player around.

Bowen was asked to cover Nash, then to chase Paul for seven games, and then he was handed Kobe who absolutely refused to miss a shot, so any concern based on the fact that the Spurs lost in the western conference finals is ridiculous. He always keeps himself in shape, but game speed is different from anything else, no matter how good your conditioning, and Pop fed the youngsters heavy minutes leading up to the season. I'm sure Bowen's been injured at some point since he's been here and we didn't know anything about it. Why would it be any different now? Again, if I'm being too kind about Bowen, it's because he's under contract, he's been really good for this team, and the Spurs are woefully undermanned. Besides, two games makes for a knee jerk reaction and you know it.

As for Batum, the Spurs did everything they could to get him, and it took the second richest guy in the world with all kinds of draft picks and talent spending a lot of money on a first round draft pick based on nothing more than a hunch from his GM. Perhaps the Spurs could have done something, but it would have taken a crystal ball and more draft picks than they had.

Funny how the situations are similar: You blame Bowen for not stopping Kobe when his jumpers are falling, and you blame the Spurs for not competing with Paul Allen and the Blazers for a draft pick with no warning.

[SenorSpur]

Bowen was asked to cover Nash, then to chase Paul for seven games, and then he was handed Kobe who absolutely refused to miss a shot, so any concern based on the fact that the Spurs lost in the western conference finals is ridiculous. He always keeps himself in shape, but game speed is different from anything else, no matter how good your conditioning, and Pop fed the youngsters heavy minutes leading up to the season. I'm sure Bowen's been injured at some point since he's been here and we didn't know anything about it. Why would it be any different now? Again, if I'm being too kind about Bowen, it's because he's under contract, he's been really good for this team, and the Spurs are woefully undermanned. Besides, two games makes for a knee jerk reaction and you know it.

As for Batum, the Spurs did everything they could to get him, and it took the second richest guy in the world with all kinds of draft picks and talent spending a lot of money on a first round draft pick based on nothing more than a hunch from his GM. Perhaps the Spurs could have done something, but it would have taken a crystal ball and more draft picks than they had.

Funny how the situations are similar: You blame Bowen for not stopping Kobe when his jumpers are falling, and you blame the Spurs for not competing with Paul Allen and the Blazers for a draft pick with no warning.

How the hell am I blaming Bowen? Just because I indicated that what I saw during the last half of last season, including playoffs, indicated to me that he has slipped a bit? Even still, I've got no issues at all with him, declining skills or not. You can't blame a player if he's injured or his skills have declined. That part of the deal as an athlete. Besides, you're completely missing my point. I would never hate on Bowen. He's been THE consummate pro and we're lucky to have him. My issue with his situation is they waited too long to address it. I've maintained that and I believe we agree on that.

If you read my post, I indicated the onus remains with the FO to provide him, and every other integral veteran player, with the right complimentary players to avoid overutilization. Pop has always been very good about that. However, in order to keep remain in contention, this franchise will have to reload. To do so, there needs to be a transitional player in waiting. There is no redeeming value in consistently trotting out "the oldest team in the league" every year, if you're realizing diminshing returns from your stars because they're playing too many minutes or the bench depth is woefully inadequate.

As for the Batum situation, we all know what happened there. Again you're putting words in my mouth. No one is aking the Holt and company to compete with Paul Allen. I have no idea where you got that from. My point is if they were sold on Batum, perhaps they should've tried to move up to obtain him. I agree that no one saw that coming. It still sticks in my craw, though.

[Spur-Addict]

I read what you said the first time. I just disagree. One thing Bowen isn't and that's stupid. Why is it so hard for folks to admit the obvious - that as these players age their skills start to decline? Bowen is 37 years old. This decline didn't start this season. I noticed it during the WCF versus the Fakers, where Koke, for the first time I can remember, made Bowen look rather stationary and ordinary. It happens. Only now, after 2 games, it looks as though the process has accelerated.

I'm not saying he's no longer functional, but to expect him to shoulder the same defensive responsibilities as previous years may be asking a bit too much. Besides that, Bowen hasn't scored a freaking point yet. He's the defensive equivalent of Finley. Where Finley is an offensive one-trick pony, Bowen is a defensive one. If his defensive skills are not up to par, he's of little benefit because he offense is virtually non-existent

Bowen is too much of a pro and has to much pride to ever give in to his own mortality. It's the job of the coach and the FO to plan for this type of transition - not the player. As much as I hate to agree with Tlong, he was right. The FO just became lazy, over-confident and, in my opinion, negligently irresponsible for ignoring the gaping hole at the backup SF position for the past 5 years and for not doing whatever was necessary to secure Batum.

If I'm right and Bowen's has started this rapid descent, that will doom the Spurs defensive philosophy.

Decline is inevitable, no denying that.

2 games is unacceptable to make judgement.

Bowen hasn't scored this is true, but he has also taken all of what, two shots? Lets get real here. In a time of offensive importance it's better to have those who are more inclined to score to have this responsibility. Possessions are of the utmost importance everytime down missing the type of offensive and additional frontline and backcourt players that we are. Certainly someone as smart as Bowen is, as smart as you make him out to be, knows this.

Bowen may be declining at a rapid pace. But, what also may be the situation is that many players that haven't been getting substantial time, are now in fact getting minutes.

They are getting minutes for offense, they are getting minutes because we simply are undermanned, and there is a uncertainty of cohesion after two games. So his decline may not be as drastic as you imply. I know that you know, that one player can disrupt an entire defensive scheme, and players who aren't defensively sound can in fact do this.

It should also be noted that undesired players playing can in fact disrupt the mindset of players accustomed to playing. We all know the guy everyone had issues with playing, you know, the guy we had to pull extra weight for on the defensive end.

I know first hand that it takes more than camp, preseason, and two games to become acclimated to new players. So please, a few more games yes?

[Obstructed_View]

It should also be noted that undesired players playing can in fact disrupt the mindset of players accustomed to playing. We all know the guy everyone had issues with playing, you know, the guy we had to pull extra weight for on the defensive end.

Bowen should be accustomed to Finley and Thomas by now. Bowen himself has been the third worst defender on the team.

[Spur-Addict]

Bowen should be accustomed to Finley and Thomas by now. Bowen himself has been the third worst defender on the team.

I'm just giving examples, and those examples aren't limited to Finley and Thomas. We also have Bonner, who has been getting substantial minutes and new players who haven't properly adjusted. Again, two games.

[Obstructed_View]

I'm just giving examples, and those examples aren't limited to Finley and Thomas. We also have Bonner, who has been getting substantial minutes and new players who haven't properly adjusted. Again, two games.

I figured you meant Bonner, and I was having some fun with you. Bonner hasn't been nearly as bad on defense as most people would like to believe. Duncan hasn't been significantly better than Bonner, he's just scored an assload of points to make up for it. I agree that we'll know more once the team's a little more intact and learns to play together. I wouldn't be shocked to see them go on a streak before Manu comes back once they start to figure things out.

[Spur-Addict]

I figured you meant Bonner, and I was having some fun with you. Bonner hasn't been nearly as bad on defense as most people would like to believe. Duncan hasn't been significantly better than Bonner, he's just scored an assload of points to make up for it. I agree that we'll know more once the team's a little more intact and learns to play together. I wouldn't be shocked to see them go on a streak before Manu comes back once they start to figure things out.

:lol That's my fault for not being specific, but i'm always more than happy to clarify things.

[sexinthatsx]

This thread is officially BS now that Hill has played his first NBA game and looks even more promising than batum

[Harry Callahan]

The Spurs want him to play center and he's WAY too skinny. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe the Spurs own the rights to Gist. He was a 2nd round pick, wasn't he? I believe you only retain the rights to 1st round picks.

T Long - You really aren't that stupid are you? How can I respect any of your (faulty) opinions when you think clubs don't retain the rights of unsigned 2nd round picks. Please.

BTW - George Hill can play. He will play both guard spots and do a very good job.

[Obstructed_View]

This thread is officially BS now that Hill has played his first NBA game and looks even more promising than batum

George looked awesome, but he's going to have to keep it up to get that game the other night out of my head. :)

[tlongII]

T Long - You really aren't that stupid are you? How can I respect any of your (faulty) opinions when you think clubs don't retain the rights of unsigned 2nd round picks. Please.

BTW - George Hill can play. He will play both guard spots and do a very good job.

Dude, I didn't state that as fact. That was merely what I thought at the time and I was wrong about retaining the rights of 2nd round picks. You don't respect any of my opinions anyway so what's the diff?

Regarding Hill...he's better than I thought he would be, but he's still not nearly as valuable as Batum.

[picnroll]

Regarding Hill...he's better than I thought he would be, but he's still not nearly as valuable as Batum.

As far as value goes assume they both became superior players at their positions. A really good PG is much more valuable and attractive in a trade than a really good SF.

[Brazil]

As far as value goes assume they both became superior players at their positions. A really good PG is much more valuable and attractive in a trade than a really good SF.

Why ?

[Obstructed_View]

Regarding Hill...he's better than I thought he would be, but he's still not nearly as valuable as Batum.

Only for the Spurs, who desperately need a long three and have one of the best point guards in the league ahead of him. In general, a good point guard's more valuable.

[picnroll]

Why ?

What team is likley to thrive more? A very good team with a great PG and so, so SF or a very good team with a so, so PG and a great SF?

How many SFs dominate games consistently and are the teams go to player? How many PGs dominate games conisistently? PG is a greater impact player to a team when he is really good.

[SenorSpur]

That still doesn't mean the position is not an integral one. The league's better athletes play that position. That's why having Bowen as a stopper has been so crucial to their success. THe Spurs have had 5 years to fill this position with a young, talented backup player and they've not accomplished anytbing.

[timvp]

Don't look now but Batum has had a string of mediocre games, while the Spurs would be relying on Vaughn for 40 minutes without Hill.

[jayc23]

Don't look now but Batum has had a string of mediocre games, while the Spurs would be relying on Vaughn for 40 minutes without Hill.

+1

[SenorSpur]

Don't look now but Batum has had a string of mediocre games, while the Spurs would be relying on Vaughn for 40 minutes without Hill.

Point taken.

If the Spurs had taken Batum, assuming he were he available at their pick, they will have most certainly taken a PG in the 2nd round. I had them taking Dragic at the same pick in the 2nd round - which they did, yet traded him to Phx.

Of course, even he is still getting acclimated to the NBA, and from what I can tell, is light years behind Hill. So your point about the Spurs having to rely on JV is still valid.

To bad the Spurs couldn't have come out of the draft with both Batum and Hill. They would've been set at both positions for the next couple of seasons. I know it's a pipe dream because Hill wouldn't have lasted until the 2nd round. I just wanted to live the moment for a bit. :lol

[Obstructed_View]

Since Hill was rumored to have been scouted by Boston and LA, how glad is everyone that he didn't end up with one of them? A PG rotation of Hill and Rondo would have been a defensive nightmare.

[Manufan909]

A G rotation of Manu, Mason, TP, and Hill will be feared throughout the league.:p:

[SenorSpur]

Since Hill was rumored to have been scouted by Boston and LA, how glad is everyone that he didn't end up with one of them? A PG rotation of Hill and Rondo would have been a defensive nightmare.

Very glad indeed. :rollin