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Allanon
11-02-2008, 04:59 PM
Free throws could ruin James' legacy
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/8742264/Free-throws-could-ruin-James%27-legacy
by Mike Kahn

Free throws ... all of it might come down to free throws for LeBron James.

It might be what prevents the Cleveland Cavaliers star from attaining his dream NBA championship, which may in turn frustrate him enough to actually leave his home state for the bright lights and marketing capital of New York for the Knicks or the Nets.

You might even toss in an errant 3-pointer or two as part of that misery.

But coming from somebody who is a native of Cleveland and picked James as the preseason league MVP and who watches the Cavs all the time, the crack in the armor is coming from the free-throw line time and time again. And that, more than being a fan of the Yankees and Cowboys instead of the Indians and Browns, could turn the cheers to boos.

Sure, it was a little startling to see how the now lighter and more confident Paul Pierce was using and abusing him as the defending champion Boston Celtics were squeezing out a 90-85 victory over the Cavs on opening night following their ring ceremony. There are those who might contend that he should have gotten more help squeezing Pierce, but haven't we heard so much about James' commitment to lockdown defense to close the gap between himself and Kobe Bryant?

OK, it's one game and Pierce is a superstar scorer. That's worthy of a break.

That wasn't the problem and everybody who saw it knows it. James missed four of six free throws in the final 6:44 of the game, including twice splitting a pair in the final 11 seconds. Toss in a bad 3-point attempt and there you have it in a game that was tighter than the 5-point difference the final score indicated.

It happened time and again last season; particularly in his poor shooting from everywhere in the Celtics series — and they still took the Celtics to seven games. If the Cavs and James are going to attain the success they keep approaching, he's going to not only have to be more selective on those 3-pointers, but somehow gain a comfort zone at the free-throw line.

And at the moment, it just isn't there.

James is a newer, bigger model of Bryant — who similarly has been cast in that light compared to Michael Jordan — but there is one big difference.

It isn't defense.

We're talking about shooting the rock. Suffice to say James doesn't compare to Bryant and Jordan in that regard. Something within the framework of his perimeter shot just isn't there. He has an amazing touch in and around the basket. His shot on the floor and more obviously from the free-throw line continues to be completely dependent on his freakish streaks of rhythm, otherwise he's horribly erratic and undependable.

He was 4-of-8 from the line in the opening loss and 8-for-12 in the 17-point win over Charlotte in the home opener on Thursday night. To be sure, he's averaging 22 points, 8.0 rebound and 7.5 assists — numbers that are true to All-Star form. But he's also 0-for-6 from 3-point range and 60 percent from the free-throw line, and that won't do.

That has been his trend over the past two-plus seasons — a premier scorer from the wing shooting a demonstrably sub-par .704 from the line, especially when he's constantly drawing fouls in the fourth quarter. He's also shooting .314 from 3-point range, which is also not what it needs to be.

Conversely, Bryant is a career free-throw shooter at a shade less than 84 percent, 34 percent from 3-point range and tends to be a lock from the line when it matters most. Jordan, meanwhile, notched .835 on free throws and .327 on 3-point attempts, and those numbers were adversely affected by his two retirements and subsequent comebacks. Nobody will question his response to crunch time.

So that's where we are at the moment with James. For all this scrutiny, he's an amazing talent who has surpassed expectations in a lot of ways, leading the Cavs to their first Eastern Conference title in history in 2007. He's already provided everyone countless breathtaking moments of individual moves or taking over games in the most unlikely fashion ... all before his 24th birthday coming in December.

The errant 3-point shots will come and go, which may become a little less frequent this season with the addition of smooth-shooting point guard Mo Williams, a healthy Daniel Gibson and hot-shooting Wally Szczerbiak at least until they likely trade him by mid-season.

Defenses will continue to trap James, deny him the ball and complain to officials that he's pushing off constantly, and if he really is 6-9, 260, well, there's not too much anybody can do about handling him physically. All of those aspects of the game will come and go. His ability to do so much with the ball scoring and passing — including an inalienable trust in his teammates — make him the closest thing to Oscar Robertson in terms of an all-around game with triple-double possibilities nightly. He will likely be a first-team All-NBA fixture, despite circumstances changing from game-to-game, month-to-month and year-to-year.

One thing that won't vary will be the free-throw line. It will remain 15 feet to the 10-foot basket. He will go to that line as frequently — and perhaps even more so — as any other player in the league during the fourth quarter. That extra 10 percent he needs to make is a point per game during the season — and increases exponentially in value during the lower scoring playoffs.

He can't continue to go 2-for-6 down the stretch of the games, and he has to gain a sense of calm and consistency. James is a guy who wants to draw fouls going to the rim — with the desired effect a 3-point play. We're not talking about a 7-footer the nature of Wilt Chamberlain or Shaquille O'Neal, centers whose games were in the post and were psyched out by those 15 feet.

James has to get over it — his future with the Cavaliers and his legacy may depend on it.

Allanon
11-02-2008, 05:07 PM
I do like LeBron and think he SHOULD be better than Kobe by now but the fact is he isn't.

LeBron's shooting will make him second banana in the Kobe comparisons until he vastly improves. He can't be "the Man" if he can't win a game from the free throw line.

Players can't stop LeBron from his dominating drives but just foul him and you can get a win.

InRareForm
11-02-2008, 05:11 PM
Lebron always looks SHOOK when he goes to the line in a close game.

JamStone
11-02-2008, 06:05 PM
Bad free throw shooting ruined Shaq's legacy and his chance at winning NBA titles.

mystargtr34
11-02-2008, 06:11 PM
^ Exactly, and LeBron is no where near that bad. Free-throw shooting or not, i think LeBron passed Kobe, its still really close though.

Spur-Addict
11-02-2008, 06:15 PM
Bad free throw shooting ruined Shaq's legacy and his chance at winning NBA titles.

This has to be sarcastic, right? :lol

ducks
11-02-2008, 06:34 PM
james has a legacy of getting sweeped in the finals
and tp getting the finals mvp not him

Allanon
11-02-2008, 08:13 PM
I don't think LeBron will ever win an MVP or an NBA championship unless:

1) He improves his free throw shooting
or
2) He gets a 2nd go-to guy for the final minutes of a close game

dirk4mvp
11-02-2008, 08:51 PM
2) He gets a 2nd go-to guy for the final minutes of a close game


Right. Because it's not like he's closed games out before.

Was Kobe as complete as he is now when he was LeBron's age?

Allanon
11-02-2008, 08:59 PM
Right. Because it's not like he's closed games out before.

He does and he doesn't... Without free throw shooting, you can't rely on LeBron to win those close games, just like that Celtics game. I think the NBA has caught on and will start fouling LeBron even more in those close games.

On the flip-side, in yesterday's Nuggets game, Kobe won that game in the end with clutch shots and clutch free-throws.



Was Kobe as complete as he is now when he was LeBron's age?

If you talk about complete, yes, Kobe was more complete than Lebron at 23. Lebron at 23 is more dominant and a better leader than 23 year old Kobe but his skillset is nowhere near Kobe's.

mystargtr34
11-02-2008, 09:26 PM
He does and he doesn't... Without free throw shooting, you can't rely on LeBron to win those close games, just like that Celtics game. I think the NBA has caught on and will start fouling LeBron even more in those close games.

On the flip-side, in yesterday's Nuggets game, Kobe won that game in the end with clutch shots and clutch free-throws.



If you talk about complete, yes, Kobe was more complete than Lebron at 23. Lebron at 23 is more dominant and a better leader than 23 year old Kobe but his skillset is nowhere near Kobe's.

Not really, Kobe was still a below 45% shooter and wasnt nearly as good a facilitator as LeBron, he did have a better jumper though.

As long as LeBron puts up 30-7-7 like he has been and the Cavs can get up to 50-55 wins, hell win MVP, its only a matter of time - in fact id say he'll get close to 4 or 5 when hes done.

Allanon
11-02-2008, 09:29 PM
Not really, Kobe was still a below 45% shooter

At 23, Kobe was exactly a 45% shooter I believe...this doesn't include his 32% from 3 point range.


wasnt nearly as good a facilitator as LeBron, he did have a better jumper though.

I think at 23, LeBron's a better facilitator than Kobe right now. But shooting, defense, winning/killer instinct, I think Kobe had the goods at 23.



As long as LeBron puts up 30-7-7 like he has been and the Cavs can get up to 50-55 wins, hell win MVP, its only a matter of time - in fact id say he'll get close to 4 or 5 when hes done.

The biggest problem with his free throw shooting is that the Cavs won't win as many games so they'll be hovering around 50 wins.

And if Kobe gets 60+ wins, that'll put him ahead, the same with CP3 playing in the harder West.

mystargtr34
11-02-2008, 09:37 PM
At 23, Kobe was exactly a 45% shooter I believe.



I think at 23, LeBron's a better facilitator than Kobe right now. But shooting, defense, winning/killer instinct, I think Kobe had the goods at 23.



The biggest problem with his free throw shooting is that the Cavs won't win as many games so they'll be hovering around 50 wins.

And if Kobe gets 60+ wins, that'll put him ahead, the same with CP3 playing in the harder West.

True, although Kobe did have a pretty damn impressive 02-03 when he put up 30-7-6 at the age of 24 so its not like he couldnt fill up the stat sheet either. I dont think LeBron's team is ready for him to win MVP THIS season either, as long as the West is so dominant, and someone leads their team to 60+ they will likely get the MVP.

Cavs are still a piece away from getting to 55 wins, even in the East.

Allanon
11-02-2008, 09:49 PM
I dont think LeBron's team is ready for him to win MVP THIS season either, as long as the West is so dominant, and someone leads their team to 60+ they will likely get the MVP.

Cavs are still a piece away from getting to 55 wins, even in the East.

I agree, LeBron's almost by himself on O...Mo Williams is a good role player on O but he's not clutch. The only reason why the Cavs are even a good team is that they have great team Defense. But they'll struggle in close games.

mystargtr34
11-02-2008, 10:00 PM
True, theyre team defense is actually way under-rated, it shows how shitty the rest of his team is on Offense, as good as LeBron is and the numbers he put up, the Cavs - offensively, have been a below average offensive team in terms of offensive efficiency the last couple of years - they get by on D.

I dont think they should have traded Drew Gooden, they were solid defensively even without Big Ben, and Gooden is probably a better rebounder now than Ben.

Then again they did get Wally's expiring deal out of it - and Delonte.

Allanon
11-02-2008, 10:09 PM
I dont think they should have traded Drew Gooden, they were solid defensively even without Big Ben, and Gooden is probably a better rebounder now than Ben.

Agreed, I think this was a huge mistake by them.



Then again they did get Wally's expiring deal out of it - and Delonte.

I'm still waiting on the final outcome of that mega trade...we'll have to wait and see what they do with Wally. It looks like they were gearing toward the future rather than this year with that trade.

Spur-Addict
11-02-2008, 10:11 PM
<<<Not a Wally fan, they could afford to open up another roster spot.

mystargtr34
11-02-2008, 10:27 PM
<<<Not a Wally fan, they could afford to open up another roster spot.

Either are the Cavs i dont think, they just wanted his contract. Its something like 12 million so if Ferry cant get anything out of that, he wont have a job at the end of the season.

lefty
11-02-2008, 10:29 PM
Bad free throw shooting ruined Shaq's legacy and his chance at winning NBA titles.

Shaq had Kobe and Dwayne, and Phil Jackson and Pat Riley.

Lebron has ... ?

mystargtr34
11-02-2008, 10:33 PM
Shaq had Kobe and Dwayne, and Phil Jackson and Pat Riley.

Lebron has ... ?

And 30-15-4-3 in each of the first three championship runs.

RsxPiimp
11-03-2008, 02:04 AM
you want shooting efficiency


kobe>lebron in TS% (this includes Ft and 3pt% along with the standard FG%)

JamStone
11-03-2008, 04:01 AM
Shaq had Kobe and Dwayne, and Phil Jackson and Pat Riley.

Lebron has ... ?

Precisely why it's not LeBron's free throw shooting that will ruin his legacy.

It's the lack of Hall of Fame teammates and coaching, not his free throw shooting.

Kobe24Forever
11-03-2008, 04:15 AM
in cleveland Lebron is the man, always had been, he's been expected to be ever since his rookie year, Kobe did not have that luxury, and Lebron's stats are inflated due to him handling the ball for like 95% of the cavs possession whenever he's on the court, i see him as a strong SF, an all star player who's one of the best at driving the lanes and finishing near the rim, but with no back to basket game, a streaky jumper, and i am not even going to mention his FT %, he cannot be seriously considered a better all around player or even a more effective player than Kobe. And if you paired shaq with James, the lakers wouldnt have been as effective as a shaq kobe pairing, shaq wide body would just take away driving lanes from lebron, his rebounds will go down as well, i dont see him as an ideal fit in the laker's 3peat as compared to kobe, at best he would be a role player and take a backseat to shaq, Lebron can never complement a dominant post player, with his sheer size and athletism sorry.

Cry Havoc
11-03-2008, 09:12 AM
Yes. The reason LeBron hasn't won a title with teammates like Boobie Gibson, Anderson Varejao, Ben Wallace, Delonte West, and Lorenzen Wright.... is because he shoots free throws poorly.

Wow. That's got to be it.

robbie380
11-03-2008, 09:29 AM
He does and he doesn't... Without free throw shooting, you can't rely on LeBron to win those close games, just like that Celtics game. I think the NBA has caught on and will start fouling LeBron even more in those close games.

On the flip-side, in yesterday's Nuggets game, Kobe won that game in the end with clutch shots and clutch free-throws.



If you talk about complete, yes, Kobe was more complete than Lebron at 23. Lebron at 23 is more dominant and a better leader than 23 year old Kobe but his skillset is nowhere near Kobe's.

http://www.82games.com/CSORT11.HTM

clutch stats

Killakobe81
11-03-2008, 11:10 AM
Here we go again ...Look Lebron is one of the best and my favorite non-Laker but as good as he is ...some points in the article are valid ...
1. FT shooting way better than SHAQ but for a guy that gifted unacceptable
2. his jumper is was too erratic ...now granted with his speed and size id rather him drive anyway ....
3. for him to be the MVP he doesnt need lockdown D (where is Steve Nash's?) but to catch Kobe and eventually MJ he does need ALL of the above

Everyone harps on Kobe's Finals but LBJ's last 2 big games Game 7 and gold medal ...Pierce outplayed him late (team game but Pierce's diving on floor cluth shooting where they keys) and in Gold medal Wade & kobe made the clutch plays not LBJ ...

And for those that ask the well he is further ahead than Kobe at same age ...so was Penny it's how you finish not how you begin ...

As for the SHAQ comments with great FT's Shaq averagiung well over 30 ppg ...more scoring titles MVP's and maybe at least 2 more titles

Allanon
11-03-2008, 11:13 AM
http://www.82games.com/CSORT11.HTM

clutch stats

The problem with those stats is:

It does not show the won or lost statistic. You can play great but if you can't close it out and win, it doesn't matter.

It's very similar to the Celtics game. LeBron was playing pretty good, he had his hand in EVERY posession. He got his points and his assists. But come down to the last 10 seconds, he missed 2 of 4 free throws cuz the Celtics just fouled him.

According to 82games, that would be a "clutch" performance for those last 5 minutes. But the end result was his team lost.

Allanon
11-03-2008, 11:17 AM
Shaq had Kobe and Dwayne, and Phil Jackson and Pat Riley.

Lebron has ... ?

That is a good point. And that's why LeBron's free throw shooting might affect his legacy.

Shaq had Kobe and DWade to take over in the 4th quarters so Shaq sat when they started the Hack-a-Shaq thing.

If LeBron can get another player to take care of the close 4th quarters and shoot free throws for him during Hack-a-Lebron, he'll be able to secure his legacy. Otherwise, he'll have to improve his FT shooting.

monosylab1k
11-03-2008, 11:23 AM
Yes. The reason LeBron hasn't won a title with teammates like Boobie Gibson, Anderson Varejao, Ben Wallace, Delonte West, and Lorenzen Wright.... is because he shoots free throws poorly.

Wow. That's got to be it.

They've gotten to the Finals and took the champs to a Game 7....they can't be all that bad of teammates.

His FT's alone aren't some indicator that LeBron will or won't win a title. They're more of an indicator of how hungry he really is to win one. For a guy as skilled as LeBron, shooting free throws is something he can easily correct with some extra effort and concentration. IMO the shitty FT shooting shows that LeBron isn't nearly as concerned with being the GOAT and winning a title as he is with being a "global icon".

monosylab1k
11-03-2008, 11:26 AM
http://www.82games.com/CSORT11.HTM

clutch stats

according to that, Dirk is #3 in the league and more clutch than Ginobili or Duncan. Hell, according to that chart Raymond Felton is more clutch than Duncan. You really wanna go with that?

robbie380
11-03-2008, 01:05 PM
according to that, Dirk is #3 in the league and more clutch than Ginobili or Duncan. Hell, according to that chart Raymond Felton is more clutch than Duncan. You really wanna go with that?

it is sorted by points per 48 min of clutch ( 4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points) time.

robbie380
11-03-2008, 01:11 PM
The problem with those stats is:

It does not show the won or lost statistic. You can play great but if you can't close it out and win, it doesn't matter.

It's very similar to the Celtics game. LeBron was playing pretty good, he had his hand in EVERY posession. He got his points and his assists. But come down to the last 10 seconds, he missed 2 of 4 free throws cuz the Celtics just fouled him.

According to 82games, that would be a "clutch" performance for those last 5 minutes. But the end result was his team lost.

the reason why i posted that was to show that lebron's ft% is actually higher in the clutch (4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points). 79% v 73% for his career

RsxPiimp
11-03-2008, 01:54 PM
it is sorted by points per 48 min of clutch ( 4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points) time.

sorted by PER 48 mins


there you go:lmao

RsxPiimp
11-03-2008, 01:55 PM
how the fuck is this guy going to be clutch when he cant hit a decent percentage at the stripe?



this is ridiculous.



lebron homers needs to shut the hell up

robbie380
11-03-2008, 02:53 PM
sorted by PER 48 mins


there you go:lmao

do you want it per 36? then multiply by .75 :lmao

Allanon
11-03-2008, 04:37 PM
the reason why i posted that was to show that lebron's ft% is actually higher in the clutch (4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points). 79% v 73% for his career

I think a better measurement would be free throws in the last 2 minutes and would like to see how many of those clutch free throw points came along with wins. But we'll see how it goes for him this year.

Many PackYao
11-03-2008, 05:31 PM
He can ask Yao during the off-season for some pointers on how to get done from the stripe.:lolHell, even T-mac is making his now.:p:

robbie380
11-03-2008, 06:29 PM
I think a better measurement would be free throws in the last 2 minutes and would like to see how many of those clutch free throw points came along with wins. But we'll see how it goes for him this year.

if anyone had those stats that would be nice too but i didn't see those anywhere.

pauls931
11-03-2008, 06:32 PM
Bad free throw shooting ruined Shaq's chance at winning 18 NBA titles.

fixed

Allanon
11-03-2008, 06:34 PM
if anyone had those stats that would be nice too but i didn't see those anywhere.

I understand, thanks for posting the stats Robbie, I guess we'll have to wait and see what LeBron does.