Suns Offense = Still unbelievably good

[Xylus]

In 4 games, the Suns are shooting 55.3% from the field, 45.5% from 3-point range;

Amare - 64.5% FG
Shaq - 70.0% FG
Nash - 56.8% FG

4 games into the season, and the Suns' offense is as potent as it has ever been.

Their defense isn't quite as sharp as it needs to be, but they're showing some improvement. For one, they haven't lost the rebounding war once so far, averaging almost 5 rebounds more a game, which is something I never could have imagined in the last 4 years.

Another major positive is that their interior defense has been very good. Even when Tim Duncan went off on us in the season opener, a lot of his points were on jumpshots, and nothing came easy for him inside (he's just that good of a player). Opponents' points in the paint have been very low compared to ours, and we're bullying teams inside with our size.

I think we have a better chance this year than most are giving us credit for. The Suns are still an elite team, much better than they were last year.

[Zee Laker]

Shaq looked really good. He is in shape and moving really well


Oh and the power dunk was sweet

[m33p0]

Parker - 64.5% FG
Duncan - 70.0% FG
Rest of the team - 56.8% FG
would be nice to see.

[JamStone]

Will be interesting to see if they can remain efficient against better defenses.

The Nets are pretty weak defensively. The Spurs really don't look the same defensively in years past, especially with Matt Bonner starting and Bruce Bowen looking really bad. And, the Suns met the Blazers without Oden and the Hornets without Chandler.

Not saying their offense won't still be good. They have very talented offensive players. But, would like to see how good they would be offensively against a team like Boston or even Houston.

[Tmac&Luther]

The Spurs really don't look the same defensively in years past, especially with Matt Bonner starting and Bruce Bowen looking really bad.

But he was the almighty 1st team defender over Shane Battier.....Bowen is a great defender and even was last year.....:rolleyes

[jacobdrj]

Observations:
a)This is not Terry Porter's 1st HC job, so he isn't just a random dude coming and bumbling in.
b)Under Flip Saunders (an offensive coordinator who had a head coaching job), and with Michael Curry as a colleague, Terry Porter has seen what not to do, as much as what to keep in a team concept.

I think you guys did well with the hiring of TP as your HC. Can't be worse than D'Antoni.

[pauls931]

Just hope they can find their identity and figure out something to do with NO. That team just picks us apart at will. It will be interesting to see how the lakers matchup goes, bynum murdured phoenix last year, but shaq wasn't there.

[dirk4mvp]

I don't see how it was done, considering they played Spurfans version of Oscar Robertson.

[IronMexican]

Shaq is a beast! And haters need to take a step back on him.

[Allanon]

Shaq's moving much better this year.

I'd almost give the Suns an A grade so far...

But the loss to the Hornets (without Chandler) is almost unforgiveable. Terry Porter didn't play Shaq in the 4th (I don't recall seeing him) when they had an obvious size advantage. Only redeeming factor was that they played the night before.

[Xylus]

The Suns have had trouble limiting their turnovers, and the Hornets game was the best example of that. 24 turnovers in one game is simply unacceptable. We shot a great percentage that game, but gave up too many extra possessions to the Hornets. They made us pay for it.

[Red Hawk #21]

Yo Xylus, your team looked great last night, I think they are definetely flying under the radar.

[mrspurs]

I for one wasnt one of the many who trash the suns. Im not a suns fan, but for a couple of seasons now they have had more talented rosters then ours. They just couldnt get passed they're coaching. If they can learn to play team D. They're gonna easily whip our behinds. Even with hack a shaq.

[JMarkJohns]

It's just like the effin' Suns to reel me back in and get me excited... I think we all know how this is going to end. That's what's so infuriating.

I mean it. So long as Sarver is the owner, I will not believe in a team again. Sarver has proven not only capable, but exceedingly willing to sabotage every good thing the Suns have going for them. Sure, he's started off differently thus far, actually using a few draft picks, signing some needed players, supplying depth and hiring a quality coach, but rest assured, he'll fuck it all up.

Of that, I have no doubt.

[IronMexican]

If the Lakers are out, I will force myself to cheer for the Suns. I love Shaq Diesel that much!

[21_Blessings]

Suns = still not a contender


I will force myself to cheer for the Suns.

Kill yourself.

[21_Blessings]

Yo Xylus, your team looked great last night, I think they are definetely flying under the radar.

They were manhandled by the Hornets. Beat a manu-less 0-3 Spurs team, Oklahoma city and the Nets.

Yes, surely they are flying under the radar! Didn't know people were expecting the Suns to be a 20 win team.

[JMarkJohns]

The Suns haven't played Oklahoma City.

They did however defeat an Oden-less Trail Blazers team.

[Obstructed_View]

Meh, the Spurs' defense has made everyone look good. I'm not sure why Suns fans would be excited at this point.

[IronMexican]

Suns = still not a contender



Kill yourself.

How can you hate Shaq.

[JMarkJohns]

Meh, the Spurs' defense has made everyone look good. I'm not sure why Suns fans would be excited at this point.

From what I've seen, they seem to be playing much harder than I can remember from past seasons. I love that they are attacking the boards and outrebounding teams. They have issues. Their shooting has been somewhat inconsistent, their perimeter defense is still a bit lax which puts too much pressure on the interior defense and their young players haven't played good yeat.

Still Barnes has worked out very well. Shaq is looking fit and pretty athletic. Porter hasn't slowed them down at all, and seems willing to actually give the youngsters the time needed to become better.

At this point I'd say there's plenty of be excited about, and if Sarver can keep from effing things up, then maybe plenty going forward.

However, expecting Sarver to not botch up a good start somehow is as ridiculous as expecting Cuban to keep his mouth shut, or Artest to keep his head, or McGrady Ming to stay healthy, or Curry to rebound...

Sarver will mess this up. Somehow he'll say or do something that affects the team directly or indirectly, but completely effs up chemistry and/or demeanor, and sabotages the season.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

They are looking sharp no doubt about that. Porter's got them playing like they mean it, although I never expected an offensively prolific team to just forget how to score overnight. And the slower pace might be able to save the legs of guys like Nash and Shaq so they aren't completely gassed come May. I put them in the same category as Houston, where health may be the biggest obstacle to overcome.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Suns do look good so far, but I'd struggle to call them "elite"

A playoff team yes, but elite no.

And in the playoffs the defense will be turned way up then what the Suns are facing this early on. I still don't see them getting past round 1. Same goes for the Spurs.

[JMarkJohns]

I think they fit somwhere from fourth to sixth in the West. Likely fourth or fifth.

1. Los Angeles
2. New Orleans
3. Utah

4. Houston
5. Phoenix
6. San Antonio

7. Dallas
8. Denver
9. Portland

10. Los Angeles
11. Golden State

12. Memphis
13. Minnesota
14. Sacramento
15. Oklahoma City

Those are my tiers. Some teams are playing better than their ranking spot, others not up to their ranking. Still, by season's end, I think most teams will be right in this area.

You may bump #3 Utah down into the second tier, but I think they are a legit contender. You may move #7 Dallas up to the second tier, but I'm just not sure.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

I think they fit somwhere from fourth to sixth in the West. Likely fourth or fifth.

That's quite fair. I just can't see them getting past LAL, HOU, NO and perhaps Utah should they face any of those teams in round 1.

But then again, it's a long season, and I expect Phoenix's defense to improve as they get more comfortable with Porter's system.

Best of luck to you guys.

[Obstructed_View]

From what I've seen, they seem to be playing much harder than I can remember from past seasons. I love that they are attacking the boards and outrebounding teams. They have issues. Their shooting has been somewhat inconsistent, their perimeter defense is still a bit lax which puts too much pressure on the interior defense and their young players haven't played good yeat.

Still Barnes has worked out very well. Shaq is looking fit and pretty athletic. Porter hasn't slowed them down at all, and seems willing to actually give the youngsters the time needed to become better.

At this point I'd say there's plenty of be excited about, and if Sarver can keep from effing things up, then maybe plenty going forward.

However, expecting Sarver to not botch up a good start somehow is as ridiculous as expecting Cuban to keep his mouth shut, or Artest to keep his head, or McGrady Ming to stay healthy, or Curry to rebound...

Sarver will mess this up. Somehow he'll say or do something that affects the team directly or indirectly, but completely effs up chemistry and/or demeanor, and sabotages the season.


Maybe, I suppose it depends on what your aspirations are. I'm looking at them like a championship contending team, and they aren't there. If you were expecting them to stink, then I suppose you're in for a pleasant surprise. I like TP and I hope he can do well (but not TOO well).

I'd expect that a team with Shaq and Amare should be outrebounding their opponents, particularly the four front lines the Suns have faced. Only the Nets weren't missing a starter, and the guys they have suck.

Barnes is starting to round into shape. He seems like he makes dumb decisions from time to time, but he's a good player, and he spells Hill, who can be really good in small doses. It seems like they were better shooters when they weren't worried about whether or not the shot they were taking was a good shot, but that may be part of the new system. As for their defense, what I've seen is that they have to help a lot which leaves shooters open. We'll see how that works out. They don't look like a championship team to me, but the prospect of entering a postseason where Nash might actually be fresh for a change has to excite every Suns fan.

[JMarkJohns]

They don't look like a Title team to me, either. However, I think Porter has surprised at this point, and if he can continue to work the team towards a balanced game, then maybe there's hope. He hasn't come in and completely changed things. He's easing them into it.

I expect them to finish with around 50-to-54 wins, and compete for a first-round home series. Depending on Porter's ability to improve the defense, Kerr's ability to acquire a quality perimeter defender and Sarver's willingness to win, they have some quality pieces and now have a coach who can do something with them.

I didn't expect them to suck. However, I didn't expect them to play this well, either.

[Killakobe81]

Im not a Shaq fan either but he looks better lthan last year but much of his explosion is gone he can still gather and power dunk but vs. the Spurs he ahd 2 or 3 layups that would of been rim rockers in his LA days
Shaq only gave LA 1 truly dedicated season that was 2000 all the rest he played hard after all-star and in playoffs ...if Lakers are out ill root for hornets since BScott is their coach ...

[IronMexican]

I like Scott too. But, man, what Shaq did for this town will never be touched.

[dirk4mvp]

he played hard after all-star and in playoffs ...


Duncan does the same thing.


Since the Mavs won't be winning anything this year, I'm gonna puke if the Hornets, Jazz, or Cavs don't win the title.

[21_Blessings]

How can you hate Shaq.

How can you root for the Suns? Or like post Laker-Shaq?


I like Scott too. But, man, what Shaq did for this town will never be touched.

What Jerry West did for this town will never be touched. Shaq sullied his own Laker legacy and has no one to blame but himself. Never liked him before he was Laker. Loved him as a Laker. Happily went back to hating him when he stopped being a Laker. Him calling the entire city/fanbase fake, the shots at Phil, Kobe and constant bitterness he displays towards his selfish departure only makes it easier.

[JMarkJohns]

Never liked him before he was Laker. Loved him as a Laker. Happily went back to hating him when he stopped being a Laker. Him calling the entire city/fanbase fake

I'm getting a good idea where his comments came from... Hilarious!

[21_Blessings]

I'm getting a good idea where his comments came from... Hilarious!

Yes how dare I root for my team and not hop on a division rivals bandwagon for a player.

Fucking retard Portland fans. When will they ever learn. Suck on this for a bit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RY06eaFaplw

[jack sommerset]

Suns should sit Shaq every other game

[JMarkJohns]

Yes how dare I root for my team and not hop on a division rivals bandwagon for a player.

You're a bitch good-timin' fan. Your own quote proves such. You hate on Shaq for calling fans fake while at the same time admit to only liking him when he was winning your team Titles.

It's pathetic.

I didn't view your youtube clip, but since it was aimed at Portland fans, and I'm a disgruntled Suns fan, I figured I'd get nothing out of it.

[Obstructed_View]

They don't look like a Title team to me, either. However, I think Porter has surprised at this point, and if he can continue to work the team towards a balanced game, then maybe there's hope. He hasn't come in and completely changed things. He's easing them into it.

I expect them to finish with around 50-to-54 wins, and compete for a first-round home series. Depending on Porter's ability to improve the defense, Kerr's ability to acquire a quality perimeter defender and Sarver's willingness to win, they have some quality pieces and now have a coach who can do something with them.

I didn't expect them to suck. However, I didn't expect them to play this well, either.

And back to the OP's point, I'm not sure how one would be excited that the Suns are scoring ~104 points per game when their shooting is so ridiculously high. I suppose "unbelievably" is the key word, and maybe that's the point.

[21_Blessings]

You're a bitch good-timin' fan. Your own quote proves such. You hate on Shaq for calling fans fake while at the same time admit to only liking him when he was winning your team Titles.

It's pathetic.

Look how fucking retarded you are. First of all, Shaq's quote was hypocritical. Second, I root for the Lakers not individual players and I put up with their bullshit as long as they keep delivering on the court for the team I love.

But of course this makes sense coming from a fresh on the bandwagon, now disgruntled (disgruntled about what? It's not like Phoenix has ever won anything) Suns fan. You're the only thing thats pathetic here. Well you and Suns defense.

[JMarkJohns]

Look how fucking retarded you are. First of all, Shaq's quote was hypocritical. Second, I root for the Lakers not individual players and I put up with their bullshit as long as they keep delivering on the court for the team I love.

But of course this makes sense coming from a fresh on the bandwagon, now disgruntled (disgruntled about what? It's not like Phoenix has ever won anything) Suns fan. You're the only thing thats pathetic here. Well you and Suns defense.

You hate Shaq pre-Lakers.
You love Shaq with Lakers.
You hate Shaq post-Lakers.
You criticize Shaq for calling the Lakers fanbase fake.

You prove his point, yet I'm the retard and hypocrite?

I hate Robert Sarver and as long as he's the owner of the Suns, running off players, selling off picks, worrying more about the bottom line than winning a Title, I'll remain disgruntled to the point where I'll wonder whether the Suns would be better of if its fanbase revolted, forcing Sarver to sell the team due to the loss of revenue.

Do you get it? Of course not. You're used to an owner spoon-feeding you great players and have an complex where you not only want, but expect a Title year in and year out. You think you're entitled. If a player fulfills that sense of entitlement, you'll love 'em. If they fail, you'll badmouth him. If they do, but then don't later, you'll love 'em until they don't.

You're so fake it's hilarious. Really, the only thing funnier is the fact that you're too stupid to connect the dots.


WOOOOOOO!!!! GO LAKERS GO!!!! WOOOOOOO!!!!

[leemajors]

You hate Shaq pre-Lakers.
You love Shaq with Lakers.
You hate Shaq post-Lakers.
You criticize Shaq for calling the Lakers fanbase fake.

You prove his point, yet I'm the retard and hypocrite?

I hate Robert Sarver and as long as he's the owner of the Suns, running off players, selling off picks, worrying more about the bottom line than winning a Title, I'll remain disgruntled to the point where I'll wonder whether the Suns would be better of if its fanbase revolted, forcing Sarver to sell the team due to the loss of revenue.

Do you get it? Of course not. You're used to an owner spoon-feeding you great players and have an complex where you not only want, but expect a Title year in and year out. You think you're entitled. If a player fulfills that sense of entitlement, you'll love 'em. If they fail, you'll badmouth him. If they do, but then don't later, you'll love 'em until they don't.

You're so fake it's hilarious. Really, the only thing funnier is the fact that you're too stupid to connect the dots.


WOOOOOOO!!!! GO LAKERS GO!!!! WOOOOOOO!!!!
:lmao

[21_Blessings]

You hate Shaq pre-Lakers.
You love Shaq with Lakers.
You hate Shaq post-Lakers.
You criticize Shaq for calling the Lakers fanbase fake.

I said I didn't like Shaq like pre-Lakers. On the Lakers? Yes, I loved him for what he brought onto the BASKETBALL court for the BASKETBALL team I have been rooting for the past 20 years. I went to actually hating him after he left based on how he went out combined with the fact I never liked his personality to begin with. Real fans root for their teams.


You prove his point, yet I'm the retard and hypocrite?

Yes you are a retard for one since you can't fucking read. I called Shaq hypocritical. And yes you're also fucking retarded for thinking Shaq even had a point.


I hate Robert Sarver and as long as he's the owner of the Suns, running off players, selling off picks, worrying more about the bottom line than winning a Title, I'll remain disgruntled to the point where I'll wonder whether the Suns would be better of if its fanbase revolted, forcing Sarver to sell the team due to the loss of revenue.

Haha, holy irony. See below


Do you get it? Of course not. You're used to an owner spoon-feeding you great players and have an complex where you not only want, but expect a Title year in and year out. You think you're entitled. If a player fulfills that sense of entitlement, you'll love 'em. If they fail, you'll badmouth him. If they do, but then don't later, you'll love 'em until they don't.

Look how dense you are. It seems to me like you're projecting your own beliefs here, which isn't surprising coming from a Suns a fan.. And now yes you are fucking hypocrite based on what you just wrote. You hate Sarver but you'll stop hating him if he actually fulfilled your sense of entitlement as a Suns fan. Good job calling yourself a fake ass bitch based on your own retard logic.

What you said has nothing to do with me not liking post-Laker Shaq. As I was still in his corner despite showing up fat, out of shape and failing to win title(s).


You're so fake it's hilarious. Really, the only thing funnier is the fact that you're too stupid to connect the dots.
WOOOOOOO!!!! GO LAKERS GO!!!! WOOOOOOO!!!!



You just pretty much spelled out your own bitterness for us. The Suns are incapable winning anything in the NBA dating back to forever. And you hate the Lakers for it. Thats fine. But rooting for your team through thick and thin can't be defined as fake no matter how much you try to bullshit coat it. Sorry about that. Enjoy losing in the 1st round again this year.

[JMarkJohns]

You really have issues. I'm the hypocrite, even though you've proven yourself to be the hypocrite. I'm the retard, even though you've proven incapable of seeing that you're a hypocrite. I'm fake, even though I'm so real in my fandom that I can't stand the owner whose literally killing the team I root for and am willing to not enjoy them if such would evict said person as owner.

I never loved Sarver. I've disliked him from the beginning. I've disliked him throughout. I dislike him now. When he leaves or dies, I'll rejoice that the Suns are no longer under his control - BECAUSE I DISLIKE HIM SO MUCH.

Explain to me how that makes me a fake ass bitch?

You're gettin' desperate! It took you damn near a half an hour to respond with that drivel, which tells me you started and stopped, then restarted probably a handful of times while trying to respond. It's OK... It must be hard to parade around as a true fan when your very own words paint you a hypocrite... or as a smart fan when your inability to comprehend paints you a retard... or a quality post when your posts themselves have nothing of substance.

I get it. It's ok... GO LAKERS GO!!!

[21_Blessings]

You really have issue. I'm the hypocrite, even though you've proven yourself to be the hypocrite. I'm the retard, even though you've proven incapable of seeing that you're a hypocrite. I'm fake, even though I'm so real in my fandom that I can't stand the owner whose literally killing the team I root for and am willing to not enjoy them if such would evict said person as owner.

I never loved Sarver. I've disliked him from the beginning. I've disliked him throughout. I dislike him now. When he leaves or dies, I rejoice that the Suns are no longer under his control - BECAUSE I DISLIKE HIM SO MUCH. [/quote

Except me being a hypocrite never happened. You're the one calling people fake and then admiting you are one as well in the very next paragraph based on what you just wrote.

Your analogy is shit. Has nothing to do with what we were talking about with Shaq. Two different situations completely. Stop trying to validate yourself and project your own fake bullshit on to other people.


Explain to me how that makes me a fake ass bitch?

Based on your own retard logic. You're making this too easy. Read what you fucking wrote in the last post.


You're gettin' desperate! It took you damn near a half an hour to respond with that drivel, which tells me you started and stopped, then restarted probably a handful of times while trying to respond. It's OK... It must be hard to parade around as a true fan when your very own words paint you a hypocrite... or as a smart fan when your inability to comprehend paints you a retard... or a quality post when your posts themselves have nothing of substance.

I get it. It's ok... GO LAKERS GO!!!

You're just running around in a circle. Probably f5ing the page since you have no real life to attend do. But good job counting the minutes at which I reply to your hilarity at work.

[JMarkJohns]

I've already explain how you being a hypocrite happened. I needn't labor any longer on the topic. You failing to grasp such is how you continuously prove to also be the retard you attempt to insult me with.

Don't tell me about good times and bad. You've never known my situation. You're like born money. You got it from the beginning, figure it's yours for simply living, and can't see how anyone could ever dare to complain that life sucks.

Dense. That's all you are. Whether intentionally as a bravado so you can parade around as the bad ass, not-a-care-in-the-world Lakers fan, or unintentionally because you were dropped on your head a child.

You can't even connect the dots in your own posts. I don't know why anybody would ever think that entering a conversation with you would be anything more than :bang

[21_Blessings]

I've already explain how you being a hypocrite happened. I needn't labor any longer on the topic. You failing to grasp such is how you continuously prove to also be the retard you attempt to insult me with.

Except you haven't. Your lack of comprehension is what sprung your WAAAAH MY OWNER sucks sob story and you spewing your repressed jealousy of a successful franchise. In doing so you contradicted yourself in the very thing you originally tried to claim. I'd recommend medication if I had the authority. Maybe then you could actually organize your thought process correctly.


Don't tell me about good times and bad. You've never known my situation. You're like born money. You got it from the beginning, figure it's yours for simply living, and can't see how anyone could ever dare to complain that life sucks.

Yeah, see a therapist about that. No one wants to hear about your insecurity unless they're getting paid.

[JMarkJohns]

You sure are taking Shaq's "Lakers fanbase is fake" comment hard for a guy who hated, then loved, then hated Shaq, but who isn't hypocritical, isn't fake and most certainly is not a retard for failing to see that you are in fact a hypocrite and fake if you hate when someone gives nothing, love when someone gives everything, then hate when said someone returns to giving nothing.

Wait, what was that...


:vomit:

:bang


:vomit:

:bang


:vomit:

:bang


:vomit:

:bang


:vomit:

:bang


:vomit:

:bang

It obviously will never end since you're both incapable of doing anything but regurgitating previous attempts at bad-assedness, and incapable of comprehension.

I know, I know...


:vomit:

:bang


:vomit:

:bang


:vomit:

:bang


:vomit:

:bang

And so on and so forth...

[TheMACHINE]

You hate Shaq pre-Lakers.
You love Shaq with Lakers.
You hate Shaq post-Lakers.
You criticize Shaq for calling the Lakers fanbase fake.

[/SIZE]

I'm lost. How is this bad?

[JMarkJohns]

I'm lost. How is this bad?

You can't criticize Shaq for calling Laker fans fake when you admit to only caring for O'Neal when he won you Titles.

Yeah, yeah, I get that you root for teams, not for players, or whatever BS fandom justification he wants to use...

When you hate a player, then jump on his fandom when it serves your purpose, then jump off said fandom when it no longer does, you are a bandwagon fan. Regardless of whether you root for the same team the entire time or not. It makes you fake. Therefore you can't get mad at Shaq when he merely points out such. That's all he was saying. You loved me when I won you Titles, and now that I no longer serve your best interests, you hate me.

21_IQ admitting to doing just that. That justifies everything Shaq said, and undercuts any attempt at justification he tries to give.

[IronMexican]

Simple as this, without Shaq Kobe wouldn't have won a ring.

[Findog]

You may move #7 Dallas up to the second tier, but I'm just not sure.

I don't know why anyone would do that. Good lord we suck.

[21_Blessings]

You sure are taking Shaq's "Lakers fanbase is fake" comment hard for a guy who hated, then loved, then hated Shaq,

Disliked for certain, basketball unrelated reasons, loved for different basketball related reasons, hated for certain unrelated basektball reasons. The constant is the Lakers. Nothing fake about that as I would tell like it is to Shaq's face.


but who isn't hypocritical, isn't fake and most certainly is not a retard for failing to see that you are in fact a hypocrite

While you're the hypocrite and "fake" by your own definition. Just refer to your feelings towards the Suns' owner that no one here on the board really gives a fuck about, yet you insisted on telling us anyways. The folly in your bullshit is that you're incapable of smelling it despite the fact that it's smeared all over your face.


and fake if you hate when someone gives nothing, love when someone gives everything, then hate when said someone returns to giving nothing.

Love is reciprocal in this case. Lakers fans gave Shaq everything, city keys included, while he was here, gave him nothing when he demanded a trade amd didn't want to be here. The real fake fans are the ones that went with him. Good riddance, as we don't want them back. Ironically, an entire slew of them became Phoenix Suns fans.

It's ok. You and Shaq can watch the Lakers run off quite of a few of these :lobt2: :lobt2: :lobt2: in the coming years. Hopefully suffering through another Lakers dynasty doesn't fuck up your psyche anymore than it already is.

[JMarkJohns]

Simple as this, without Shaq Kobe wouldn't have won a ring.

Exactly. Obviously 21_IQ knew this and appreciated all Shaq brought, so long as he kept bringing it. Once he no longer could, he went right back to despising the same player that brought the Lakers success.

Falsificación... Falsificazione... تمويه... Fälschung... 偽造品... Απομίμηση... Фальшивка... Fejka... Falsificação... 伪造品... FAKE!

[21_Blessings]

Simple as this, without Shaq Kobe wouldn't have won a ring.

Simple as this, without Kobe, Shaq wouldn't have won a ring on the Lakers.

[IronMexican]

I can understand why other Laker fans would hate Shaq, but I love him. He definitely didn't do everything right off the court, but neither did Kobe, or Jordan.

[Findog]

Kobe and Duncan could've won titles together. Shaq and Wade did. I've always felt Kobe and Shaq should share the credit equally for the Laker dynasty of 99-02.

[21_Blessings]

Shaq had Eddie Jone, Nick Van Exel and Ced Ceballos - all All-Star type players at that point in their career. Kobe was getting screwed for minutes and coming off bench with Del Harris running the show. Did Shaq win a title? Nope.

Did Shaq win a title with All-NBA first team Penny Hardaway and Horace grant? No, his 1st seed Orlando team was swept out of the finals by a 6th seed Rockets team.

It wasn't until Kobe became the best 2 guard in the league and the most dangerous closer in the NBA that the Lakers started running off titles.

Fact is, they need each other. They ran the high low game to perfection. Shaq still hasn't played with a better player than Kobe was at getting him easy lobs. They were ying and yang. Thats just the way it was.

[IronMexican]

Simple as this, without Kobe, Shaq wouldn't have won a ring on the Lakers.

No one was gonna stop Shaq in 2000-2001. Obviously Kobe beasted against the Spurs. but Shaq was just nasty that whole playoffs

[JMarkJohns]

Simple as this, without Kobe, Shaq wouldn't have won a ring on the Lakers.

Maybe. You don't know what player replaces Kobe. Shaq won a ring with Wade. Wade is nowhere near as complete a player as Kobe.

That's my main point. Because you expect your team to bring you a Title, instead of a sense of gratitude towards the players bringing it, you feel entitled to have it. When the means to an end no longer brings about the desired end, you simply replace the means without a true care for what was done.

I how I wish my fandom could be so jaded.

Whether or not you cared before, most certainly after he won three Finals MVPs in three consecutive seasons, you should have appreciated the player enough to care even if he was no longer on the team.

When Barkley left the Suns (under very similar personal situations, mind you) and forced a trade from the Suns to the contending Rockets, I still rooted for him after the Suns were through because even though they never won the Title, they would have been nowhere as good without him. When Michael Finley's Spurs defeated the Suns just two seasons ago, I still pulled for a one-time Suns favorite to win his first Title despite his team literally sucker-shoving my fandom into madness.

Go ahead and call me overly sentimental. Fact is I've lost my mind with the Suns and have proven my fandom as real. I love the Suns so much that since their current owner is sabotaging their present and future, I've semi-revolted hoping for an ownership change because that's what's best for the Suns. It doesn't make me fake. It makes me that much more real because it's not just wins and losses.

[TheMACHINE]

You can't criticize Shaq for calling Laker fans fake when you admit to only caring for O'Neal when he won you Titles.

Yeah, yeah, I get that you root for teams, not for players, or whatever BS fandom justification he wants to use...

When you hate a player, then jump on his fandom when it serves your purpose, then jump off said fandom when it no longer does, you are a bandwagon fan. Regardless of whether you root for the same team the entire time or not. It makes you fake. Therefore you can't get mad at Shaq when he merely points out such. That's all he was saying. You loved me when I won you Titles, and now that I no longer serve your best interests, you hate me.

21_IQ admitting to doing just that. That justifies everything Shaq said, and undercuts any attempt at justification he tries to give.


I have an employee. He is great. He made my company alot of money. Best employee ever. Love him to death! He then becomes a bit lazy and starts talking crap about me. I let him go. Do i love him now? No...fuck him. He dont work for me anymore. He then starts talking crap about my company. I still dont see how its bad to hate on the ex-employee.

[21_Blessings]

No one was gonna stop Shaq in 2000-2001. Obviously Kobe beasted against the Spurs. but Shaq was just nasty that whole playoffs

Shaq isn't a winning a title without an elite closer. Simple as that. Kobe averaged close to 30 - 7 - 7 in the 2001 playoffs. He was just as beast Shaq.

[IronMexican]

I could argue that Shaq's 2001 title run was one of the best post season performances ever. Rich Gannon is bad mouthing the Raiders, I'll never hate him. There are just some people I can't hate.

[JMarkJohns]

I have an employee. He is great. He made my company alot of money. Best employee ever. Love him to death! He then becomes a bit lazy and starts talking crap about me. I let him go. Do i love him now? No...fuck him. He dont work for me anymore. He then starts talking crap about my company. I still dont see how its bad to hate on the ex-employee.

I'm not saying it's bad. Pathetic to a point. Sure. However, my first and main gripe came in pointing out the hypocrisy of the following.

Hate Shaq pre-Lakers
Love Shaq with Lakers
Hate Shaq post-Lakers

Criticize Shaq for calling such fake.

FAKE: one that is not what it purports to be...

You hate the person and player Shaq. You hate what he is and what he does. Whoops! He's a Laker benefitting my team to three consecutive Title. I love that guy. He's a great player. Whoops! He's no longer a Laker. I stand to gain nothing from him any longer, so I hate him again. Thanks for the rings, but I hate you the person and the player.

WHAT! How dare Shaq say I'm fake. I never changed. I always only rooted for the Lakers and if Shaq happened to be on the Lakers, then so be it. If he was off the Lakers, whatever. I'm far from fake. I love the Lakers...

WTF?! It's not bad to hate players. I hate a ton of players. However, I hated Horry and Elie for what each did to the Suns prior to becoming a Sun, and I hated each while being Suns. When each left, I hated them just the same.

You see... When your opinion changes based on what such brings to you, you're fake.

[21_Blessings]

Maybe. You don't know what player replaces Kobe. Shaq won a ring with Wade. Wade is nowhere near as complete a player as Kobe.

Wade is the the 3rd best closer in the game. But lets ignore that they played in a weak conference, didn't face the actual best team in the West and that Eric Dampier put up comparable numbers to Shaq in the finals; fine, Shaq won a ring without Kobe.

But as of now, Kobe is doing just fine without Shaq. I'd take prime Shaq over Gasol, Odom and Bynum. Lets see what Kobe does the next 5 years before we set anything in stone.


That's my main point. Because you expect your team to bring you a Title, instead of a sense of gratitude towards the players bringing it, you feel entitled to have it. When the means to an end no longer brings about the desired end, you simply replace the means without a true care for what was done.

Your main point is garbage because you don't know me, nor no what the fuck you are talking about. I'm utterly grateful for what Shaq did for LA when he was here. Still am. Doesn't mean I have to suck his dick when he selfishly demands money he wasn't worth, demands a trade, insults the city, team, owner, coach and ends up playing on a division rival. Shaq isn't a Laker anymore. When he retires and jersey goes up into the stands we can remenice about old times. Until then, he's the enemy, an enemy standing in the way of Lakers.


I how I wish my fandom could be so jaded.

Go ahead and call me overly sentimental. Fact is I've lost my mind with the Suns and have proven my fandom as real. I love the Suns so much that since their current owner is sabotaging their present and future, I've semi-revolted hoping for an ownership change because that's what's best for the Suns. It doesn't make me fake. It makes me that much more real because it's not just wins and losses.

Yes we already established that you have somewhat 'lost your mind'. Fact is, you haven't proven shit here other than type of few words. I don't really care what your fandom means to you, but when you start questioning others fandom and then start contradicting yourself with your own borderline insane rambles it's hard for someone to take what you're saying seriously. I never called you fake, you did based on the flawed logic you were using. But hey keep preaching about what a 'proven' fan you are. If that makes feel validated about how 'real' your fandom is, good for you.

[JMarkJohns]

As for the thread's purpose... Suns offense is still struggling with the same issues as before: turnovers (10 at the half) and inconsistent 3-point shooting (3-10 at the half). Plus... their defense is not working. Indiana is 9-14 from 3-point range.

Terrible.

[sook]

black hole son...won't she come...won't she cummm....

[JMarkJohns]

Wade is the the 3rd best closer in the game. But lets ignore that they played in a weak conference, didn't face the actual best team in the West and that Eric Dampier put up comparable numbers to Shaq in the finals; fine, Shaq won a ring without Kobe.

But as of now, Kobe is doing just fine without Shaq. I'd take prime Shaq over Gasol, Odom and Bynum. Lets see what Kobe does the next 5 years before we set anything in stone.



Your main point is garbage because you don't know me, nor no what the fuck you are talking about. I'm utterly grateful for what Shaq did for LA when he was here. Still am. Doesn't mean I have to suck his dick when he selfishly demands money he wasn't worth, demands a trade, insults the city, team, owner, coach and ends up playing on a division rival. Shaq isn't a Laker anymore. When he retires and jersey goes up into the stands we can remenice about old times. Until then, he's the enemy, an enemy standing in the way of Lakers.



Yes we already established that you have somewhat 'lost your mind'. Fact is, you haven't proven shit here other than type of few words. I don't really care what your fandom means to you, but when you start questioning others fandom and then start contradicting yourself with your own borderline insane rambles it's hard for someone to take what you're saying seriously. I never called you fake, you did based on the flawed logic you were using. But hey keep preaching about what a 'proven' fan you are. If that makes feel validated about how 'real' your fandom is, good for you.

Sure, sure... I'll admit to not knowing everything about you and the context of your post when I entered in and pointed out the irony and hilarity of a post that criticized Shaq for calling Laker fans fake while at the same time admitting to only liking Shaq when his Bandwagon was in the Lakers camp.

From there you insulted me because I was a worthless Trail Blazer fan, which I'm not. It was a joke in response to the flood of pro-blazer threads in this forum several months back. Other have changed back. I haven't. Oops.

Along the way too many assumptions were made based on reactions to flawed parts of posts.

I'm willing to concede such.

However, I will not understand how you can sit and deny the irony or hilarity of the post in question. Your "Hated Shaq Pre-Lakers, Loved Him With, Hated After" sentence that led into your critique of Shaq calling Laker fans fake was at best a poorly worded qualifier that misrepresented the actual intent of the post and poster and at worst proved the poster fake and hypocritical.

Whichever. We've spent a ton of time chasing our tails. You're not going to prove me a retard or hypocrite and I no longer care one way or the other.

Yeah... I'm mad. My fandom has issues. I hate the puppeteer pulling the strings of the puppets that make up my favorite team. He's a complete tool. I hated D'Antoni as well. Such doesn't call into question my fandom, but rather proves my ability to break down the never-ending failings of my favorite team and who is to blame.

[21_Blessings]

I'm not saying it's bad. Pathetic to a point. Sure. However, my first and main gripe came in pointing out the hypocrisy of the following.

Hate Shaq pre-Lakers
Love Shaq with Lakers
Hate Shaq post-Lakers

Criticize Shaq for calling such fake.

Shaq is the fucking poster boy for 'love the one you're with'. Which makes what he said completely hypocritical.

Proves how simple minded you are acting and how stupid your argument is. All you've done is juxtaposed what I said with what you believe I meant and then start lying about what I actually wrote. Never did I say I hated Shaq the player. If you actually had any reading comprehension skills you would have caught that.


You see... When your opinion changes based on what such brings to you, you're fake.

So that makes you a hypocritical fake bitch based on your rationalism of Sarver. Way to go champ.

[21_Blessings]

I could argue that Shaq's 2001 title run was one of the best post season performances ever.

And Kobe's performance was right up there as well.

Simple fact is, Kobe was the best defender and facilitator on the team. Kobe was also the only closer on the team as Shaq has proved time and time again that he is incapable of such a task. Lakers aren't beating the Spurs without Kobe plain and simple. He completely dominated that series.

[JMarkJohns]

So that makes you a hypocritical fake bitch based on your rationalism of Sarver. Way to go champ.

My opinion of Sarver never changed. It's completely different. I'm pissed off that he's ruining the Suns. As a result I'm torn whether or not to financially support them because if enough people do such, then he is forced to sell.

I'm obviously not completely revolting, as I still watch Suns games and still actively root for them to win every game they play. I haven't changed at all, except I'm not buying tickets or merchandise as long as Sarver is the owner.

How is this similar to "hating pre-Laker Shaq, loving Laker Shaq, and then hating post-Laker Shaq" as your post proclaimed?

It's not. So give it up. I've always hated Sarver and I've always loved the Suns. Nothing has changed.

[21_Blessings]

How is this similar to "hating pre-Laker Shaq, loving Laker Shaq, and then hating post-Laker Shaq" as your post proclaimed?

It's not. So give it up. I've always hated Sarver and I've always loved the Suns. Nothing has changed.

You claimed originally 'as long as Sarver does X' I'll hate him. Implying you'd change your tune in a heartbeat if he wasn't retarded. This is the logic your using in calling me fake, which is stupid. Especially considering my opinion of Shaq the person never changed as I've clarified for you.

But hey if you want to argue semantics all day we can keep going.

[JMarkJohns]

All you've done is juxtaposed what I said with what you believe I meant and then start lying about what I actually wrote. Never did I say I hated Shaq the player. If you actually had any reading comprehension skills you would have caught that.

This is an NBA board, right? I think when a players name is mentioned it's generally assumed, unless clearly stated otherwise, that the player and not the person is being spoken about.

so...


If the Lakers are out, I will force myself to cheer for the Suns. I love Shaq Diesel that much!
Kill yourself.

then...


How can you hate Shaq.
How can you root for the Suns? Or like post Laker-Shaq?

...Shaq sullied his own Laker legacy and has no one to blame but himself. Never liked him before he was Laker. Loved him as a Laker. Happily went back to hating him when he stopped being a Laker. Him calling the entire city/fanbase fake, the shots at Phil, Kobe and constant bitterness he displays towards his selfish departure only makes it easier.

You clearly mention hating Shaq, never clearly proving a context of the person and not the player, and in doing so - by admitting you hated, then loved, then hated Shaq depending on which team he played for - provided some quotes that made you look like one of the fake Laker fans Shaq criticized. You were critical of this criticism, thus the irony.

You failed to get irony and immediately became defensive. In my elaboration I most definitely kept on assuming you meant the player and not the person and the arguments devolved from the misunderstanding. Instead of seeing the hilarity in the original point, as leemajors did, you insisted it personal, proclaimed me a retard and attempted to spin unrelated history of my recent fandom into a similar light, even though it was like cramming a square peg in a round hole.

I failed to read your mind. You failed to find humor in a humorous bunch of sentences. Everything fell apart from there. Each got lost in mocking the other to the point the original point got lost and when things finally returned, nobody, and I'm guessing this includes both of us, cared any longer.

[JMarkJohns]

You claimed originally 'as long as Sarver does X' I'll hate him. Implying you'd change your tune in a heartbeat if he wasn't retarded. This is the logic your using in calling me fake, which is stupid. Especially considering my opinion of Shaq the person never changed as I've clarified for you.

But hey if you want to argue semantics all day we can keep going.

I never inferred I'd change my opinion. I said I hated him for specific reasons and was considering options, but I never hinted that if he changed all would be forgiven. Truth be told, if he managed to pull the rabbit out of the hat and the Suns actually won a Title, I'd resent him that much more for the delay and the fact that had he cared to win one earlier, used picks, resigned players and kept Colangelo, that the Suns may have had several and not just that single one.

I hate Robert Sarver with every fiber of my fandom. Nothing he could do going forward would right the wrongs he's done, and these wrongs, in my eyes, are unforgivable and deserve retribution.

[21_Blessings]

You clearly mention hating Shaq, never clearly proving a context of the person and not the player, and in doing so - by admitting you hated, then loved, then hated Shaq depending on which team he played for - provided some quotes that made you look like one of the fake Laker fans Shaq criticized. You were critical of this criticism, thus the irony.

The real irony in the quote is that Shaq said in the first place. But in reality, don't give a fuck what a hypocritical Suns fan thinks. Especially one that feels the need to justify his fandom, so he can feel validated in that his fandom is superior to that of all those 'fake' Laker fans despite the fact he defined himself exactly the same way.


I failed to read your mind. You failed to find humor in a humorous bunch of sentences. Everything fell apart from there. Each got lost in mocking the other to the point the original point got lost and when things finally returned, nobody, and I'm guessing this includes both of us, cared any longer.

You failed in the sense you ended putting words into my mouth pretending to actually understand how I felt based on a one sentence. Regardless, you talked yourself into a hypocritical circle and are now reduced to using 'we got lost' card when it was really just you that went off on a tangent.

[JMarkJohns]

The real irony in the quote is that Shaq said in the first place. But in reality, don't give a fuck what a hypocritical Suns fan thinks. Especially one that feels the need to justify his fandom, so he can feel validated in that his fandom is superior to that of all those 'fake' Laker fans despite the fact he defined himself exactly the same way.

You failed in the sense you ended putting words into my mouth pretending to actually understand how I felt based on a one sentence. Regardless, you talked yourself into a hypocritical circle and are now reduced to using 'we got lost' card when it was really just you that went off on a tangent.

You think what you want to think. Now you're the one running around in circles to justify your reactions by belittling me as a hypocrite when you have yet to prove such.

I guess we're both two clueless peas in one effed up thread.

[21_Blessings]

You think what you want to think. Now you're the one running around in circles to justify your reactions by belittling me as a hypocrite when you have yet to prove such.

I have as much proof of you being a hypocrite as you have in calling me me one or implying I'm fake. You used one sentence and refused to comprehend my clarification, as I did with your original Sarver statement which you then back tracked and clarified.

Let me know when you want to start discussing hoops though.

[JMarkJohns]

I have as much proof of you being a hypocrite as you have in calling me me one or implying I'm fake. You used one sentence and refused to comprehend my clarification, as I did with your original Sarver statement which you then back tracked and clarified.

Let me know when you want to start discussing hoops though.

I've already admitted to taking things too far from my original point/intent, to point out the hilarity of that those two sentences. I said I was confused, but hellbent on winning the argument, getting so engrossed in putdowns that I completely misread what you were saying, then failed to care about the subsequent clarifications.

I won't apologize, because it being a message board, these things happen. However, I will admit I wrongly assumed based on two sentences and then took things too far when things got personal.

I don't expect an apology, either, but since I've extended an objective hand post-clarification, reciprocity would be great. If not, it's not like you're the first poster I've put off, nor will you be the last.

But hey... whatever, right?

[fedrik]

Thats really too good.