2008-09 PER Standings

[Man Mountain]

1. Tony Parker, SAS - 39.41
2. LeBron James, CLE - 32
3. Chris Paul, NOR - 31.4
4. Amare Stoudemire, PHO - 31.14
5. Dwyane Wade, MIA - 30.09
6. Shannon Brown, CHA - 29.94
7. Carlos Boozer, UTH - 28.99
8. Joe Johnson, ATL - 28.85
9. Tim Duncan, SAS - 28.68
10. Dwight Howard, ORL - 28.26
11. Dirk Nowitzki, DAL - 26.15
12. Walter Herrmann, DET - 25.93
13. Nick Young, WAS - 25.87
14. Jose Calderon, TOR - 25.87
15. Kobe Bryant, LAL - 25.37
16. Tracy McGrady, HOU - 25.19
17. Chris Bosh, TOR - 24.86
18. Rudy Fernandez, POR - 24.55
19. Andrei Kirilenko, UTH - 24.13
20. Tayshaun Prince, DET - 23.74
21. Vince Carter, NJN - 23.6
22. George Hill, SAS - 23.51
23. Steve Nash, PHO - 23.36
24. Trevor Ariza, LAL - 23.36
25. Roger Mason, SAS - 23.21


:hat:hat:hat:hat:hat:hat:hat:hat:hat:hat

Parker is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out in front and 4 SPURS in the TOP 25.

Still early but note worthy I thought :)

[m33p0]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-081106
Hollinger still found a way to shoot down Parker.

Breaking Down Special Nights By Amare and Parker
Hollinger

By John Hollinger
ESPN.com
(Archive)

I watched nearly all the Suns' 113-103 victory over Indiana, in which Amare Stoudemire scored 49 points while missing only four shots, and while it was happening I was thinking that this might go down as the best performance all season. Within a matter of hours, however, it was debatable whether it was even the best performance of the night.

San Antonio's Tony Parker, who entered the game leading the league in PER, didn't appear intent on giving up his lead anytime soon. He pumped in 55 points and threw in 10 assists to help San Antonio get off the schneid with a 129-125 double-OT win in Minnesota capping a night where several star players blew up. In addition to Parker and Stoudemire, LeBron James (41 points, nine boards, six assists, four steals) and Dwyane Wade (29 points, and two blocks shy of a rare "five by five") also had impressive evenings.

So where do all these performances stand in relation to each other -- not to mention the other top performances of recent seasons?

Glad you asked. It turns out we have just such a tool for measuring a player's single game performance, and we'll be launching it in the coming weeks.

In the meantime, Wednesday's unusual outpouring of impressive individual efforts makes it a perfect time to offer a sneak preview. What I've done is modify my original game score formula -- a back-of-the-envelope means of evaluating a player's single-game performance -- to adjust for pace, leaving us with a more advanced metric that more closely mimics the PER formula while having the benefit of being far less complicated. I call it adjusted game score, or AGS.

Thanks to the wizardry of the crew back in Bristol, we have the AGS of every player in every game over the past seven seasons. Not surprisingly, the best AGS score of that period (dating to the start of the 2001-02 season) belongs to Kobe Bryant thanks to his 81-point explosion against Toronto on Jan. 22, 2006; for that effort he earned a 63.37. No other player has come within 10 points of that mark (see chart), though Bryant has occasionally come close -- he has three of the top four marks and five of the top 14. The only other player with more than one top-20 performance is James, with five, though his almost all rank lower than Bryant's.

Top AGS since 2001-02
Rank Player Date Pts. FG-FGA FT-FTA Reb Ast TO AGS
1, Kobe Bryant 1/22/06 81 28-46 18-20 6 2 3 63.37
2. Manu Ginobili 2/13/08 46 15-20 8-9 5 8 1 52.58
3. Kobe Bryant 4/15/07 50 18-25 11-13 8 3 1 50.91
4. Kobe Bryant 3/16/07 65 23-39 11-12 7 3 2 50.42
5. S. Abdur-Rahim 11/23/01 50 21-30 8-8 12 5 2 50.35
15. Amare Stoudemire 11/5/08 49 17-21 15-15 11 6 4 47.21
43. Tony Parker 11/5/08 55 22-36 9-10 7 10 4 43.63

OK, enough about the history -- where do Wednesday's efforts rank?

Let's start with Parker. In raw terms, his performance was amazing -- nobody had hit the milestones of 55 points and 10 assists since Michael Jordan did it 16 years ago, and he was three rebounds shy of a triple-double as well. Until Wednesday, only Bryant has managed to post a raw game score (the old formula) over 50; he did it in his 81-point game, of course, and again in his 65-point effort against Portland in March of 2007. Parker's 50.1 became the third.

However, once we adjust for the two overtimes and the game's generally fast pace, Parker's effort loses some of its luster -- at least relative to other recent great performances. His AGS of 43.63 ranks 42nd, which is still impressive ... but not the night's best.

The more impressive performance belonged to Stoudemire. He didn't have quite as gaudy a point total, getting downgraded to 49 after scorers removed a field goal, but he was devastatingly efficient. Stoudemire piled up his points while missing just four shots from the floor and shooting a perfect 15-of-15 from the line, and he added 11 boards, six assists, five steals and two blocks. He became just the seventh player in the past two decades to have a 40-10-5-5 game, and the first in seven years.

Amare's raw game score isn't as strong as Parker's, but because he did all his damage in regulation his AGS of 47.21 ranks much higher. It places him 15th on the list and is easily the best of his career; his previous mark was the 29th-rated game when he rang up the Hawks for 43 in 2007.

To really put what both Parker and Stoudemire did in perspective, though, it's helpful to check out what Wade and James did. Both players played extremely well, and on any other night their performance would have been the lead story. But neither player's AGS cracked the top 200 of the past seven seasons.

There's a reason for that -- it takes an extremely strong game just to get at the back of the list once you're dealing with so many games. In an average year, we'd expect only seven games or so to crack the top 50.

The fact that two of them happened on one night is amazing, and even moreso this early in the season -- since offense tends to improve sharply as the season goes on, most of the top AGS marks come later in the season. Six of the top 11 AGS scores were in March or April; prior to Wednesday, only six October or November games were even in the top 50.

Anyway you slice it, both performances were incredibly impressive. Using AGS, however, shows us that Stoudemire's was the more dominating of the two.

[spursparker9]

parker for mvp and all nba 1st team

[boutons_]

What a night! Definitely The Obama Effect

[jiggy_55]

While we're talking about Hollingers stats, how about we look at Hollingers team stats too? http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats?sort=defeff&seasonType=2&league=nba&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba %2fhollinger%2fteamstats%3fsort%3ddefeff%26seasonT ype%3d2%26league%3dnba

This disgusts me.. Dead last in defensive eficiency.. Well, atleast we're in 2nd place in offensive efficiency at least..

[FromWayDowntown]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-081106
Hollinger still found a way to shoot down Parker.

I had the same thought when I read that column. I'm sure it's more imagined than real, but it does seem as though Hollinger goes out of his way to discount Spurs' accomplishments or to diminish their "chances."

[1Parker1]

Parker is also currently the NBA's top scoring leader. at 31 ppg I believe. :wow

Of course, I'm sure Kobe and Lebron will catch up eventually :lol

[1Parker1]

Oh and I agree, I definitely think Hollinger has something against the Spurs.

Most likely it's because it's the team that's consistently proven his bogus statisical system wrong. The fact that on paper sometimes, Spurs don't always look or appear to be the best team or have players with the best PER, etc, however, they continuously win. His system doesn't account for how the Spurs use the regular season as a tune up and how it's not really a determinant factor of how they'll do in the playoffs. How Duncan's stats may appear to be low but he turns it on when needed in the playoffs. Or how Ginobili may not put up the points or stats like a Lebron or Kobe, but his game has just as much an impact because he has qualities that cannot be quantified.

[timvp]

I had the same thought when I read that column. I'm sure it's more imagined than real, but it does seem as though Hollinger goes out of his way to discount Spurs' accomplishments or to diminish their "chances."To be fair, Hollinger has man-love for Manu most of the time. Manu is one of his PER babies.

Last year he went out of his way to discredit the Spurs because his formula said the Spurs were overrated. He's usually biased but biased in an attempt to always prove his numbers right.

[TMTTRIO]

To be fair, Hollinger has man-love for Manu most of the time. Manu is one of his PER babies.

I don't know about that. Wasn't he the one last year that kept saying that Manu was going to be on the decline before Manu ended up having one of his best years ever.

[timvp]

I don't know about that. Wasn't he the one last year that kept saying that Manu was going to be on the decline before Manu ended up having one of his best years ever.Yeah he put him on his All-Decline team due to his age but apologized to him by about the fifth game of the season and apologized repeatedly after that. Hollinger is probably the only mainstream basketball pundit who constantly claims Ginobili is a top 10-15 player in the NBA.

[mrspurs]

Just personal numbers. I know they are great to have but team comes first. And right now thats our team. Tony is the team. Timmys hands are full. Its Tonys call now. Last season Pop really let Tony go. And with Manu being hurt, you can tell right away he can do as he pleases. The other night when Pop yelled at Tony, for putting up that late 3. Tony put Pop back into his place. Then Pop rested him for this game. And its 55 points later. And a win.

[xellos88330]

I still think that TP did a better job than Amare. Amare is a friggin' PF/C. He did what he was supposed to do. TP is a point gaurd. Not gonna fill up the stat sheet as much as a big man.

[The Truth #6]

His "AGS" score for Manu is 2nd on his all time list so he does give credit.

I'll agree that Parker had 2 OTs to get his points. On a game level, Parker's was probably a better performance considering how he kept us going with consistent clutch shots to finally get us a win. It was an impressive performance in the service of getting the team a win. Who cares how it's adjusted? People will remember Tony's game much more than what Hollinger says about it.

55 points. With his rings, and Finals MVP that's an extra feather in his cap when they look back at his career, especially when considering HOF consideration. I'm just saying.

[timaios]

Parker is also currently the NBA's top scoring leader. at 31 ppg I believe. :wow

Of course, I'm sure Kobe and Lebron will catch up eventually :lol

Tony Parker 2008-09

4 games
38.8 min
FG 53-94 56.4%
3pts 3-5 60.0%
FT 24-27 88.9% :wow
Reb 3.80
To 3.25
Ast 7.3
Pts 33.3


To be fair, Hollinger has man-love for Manu most of the time. Manu is one of his PER babies.

From a chat with John Hollinger just before the season begins.
http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=22751

Question from a guy : "Stats aside, which player do you most enjoy watching?"

John Hollinger: Manu has to be right near the top. The daring passes, the high-difficulty shots ... it's pretty cool. Josh Smith on his good days is up there too.

[Lake_show]

Who cares about PER? lol. Your team is a joke. 2 OT against MIN = FAIL.

[FromWayDowntown]

To be fair, Hollinger has man-love for Manu most of the time. Manu is one of his PER babies.

Last year he went out of his way to discredit the Spurs because his formula said the Spurs were overrated. He's usually biased but biased in an attempt to always prove his numbers right.

You're right. I suppose I still have the "if any team is going to come back from down 0-3, it's the 07-08 Suns" argument stuck in my craw.

[Phenomanul]

PER does not measure clutchness... If it did, Parker's effort would statistically standout even more...

What ever happened to "Nestle's Crunch Time" Stat??

[Phenomanul]

Oh and was that Manu's statline against Cleveland or the Timberwolves?

[m33p0]

Oh and was that Manu's statline against Cleveland or the Timberwolves?
probably t-wolves.

[BlackSwordsMan]

good parker's value is high we can trade him,bonner and finley for kobe

[Drom John]

Ginobli's game was against Cleveland. (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=280213005)

[Man Mountain]

point guards ..........

1 Tony Parker, SAS 32.82
2 Chris Paul, NOR 31.1
3 Devin Harris, NJN 24.94
4 Jason Terry, DAL 20.36
5 George Hill, SAS 20.07
6 Chauncey Billups, DEN 19.41
7 Mike Bibby, ATL 18.76
8 Jason Kidd, DAL 18.34
9 Rajon Rondo, BOS 18.33
10 Steve Nash, PHO 18.23
11 Jose Calderon, TOR 18.07
12 Baron Davis, LAC 18.06


rookies .......

1 Marreese Speights, PHI 21.38
2 George Hill, SAS 20.07
3 Anthony Morrow, GSW 18.54
4 Nicolas Batum, POR 18.48
5 Ryan Anderson, NJN 18.35
6 Derrick Rose, CHI 17.63
7 Greg Oden, POR 17.6
8 O.J. Mayo, MEM 17.56
9 Rudy Fernandez, POR 17.51
10 JaVale McGee, WAS 17.45



over all .............

1 Manu Ginobili, SAS 35.84
2 LeBron James, CLE 33.25
3 Tony Parker, SAS 32.82
4 Dwyane Wade, MIA 31.81
5 Chris Paul, NOR 31.1
6 Dwight Howard, ORL 28.38
7 Chris Bosh, TOR 26.12
8 Carlos Boozer, UTH 25.65
9 Tim Duncan, SAS 25.5
10 Devin Harris, NJN 24.94


11 Kobe Bryant, LAL 24.53 :lol:lol:lol:lol

[polandprzem]

U kiddin?

[stéphane]

Not surprising Manu has been fantastic so far for someone who is coming back from surgery. Missed seeing him play.

[Frenchise player]

This is not surprising at all, Manu was already leading those stats last year during a long periode of time.
It just means that both Ginobili and Parker are ultra effective during the minutes they are on the court.
But those numbers are deceiptive because so far Manu has played 3 games averaging more or less 20 minutes per game, and Lebron James has played every game averaging more than 35 minutes per game.

Overall, you can't really compare Lebron and Manu or Tony and Paul just based on this stat.

[Brazil]

This is not surprising at all, Manu was already leading those stats last year during a long periode of time.
It just means that both Ginobili and Parker are ultra effective during the minutes they are on the court.
But those numbers are deceiptive because so far Manu has played 3 games averaging more or less 20 minutes per game, and Lebron James has played every game averaging more than 35 minutes per game.

Overall, you can't really compare Lebron and Manu or Tony and Paul just based on this stat.

No but for once they show some love for the spurs.

[Kobayagi]

6. Shannon Brown, CHA - 29.94


Who?

[Tully365]

We already knew about the effectiveness the Big 3, but by any statistical measure-- PER, +/-, EFF per 48-- Hill has been a very successful player. If he was not the back up PG to an all-star, there would now be serious talk of him being a dark horse candidate for ROY.

[Frenchise player]

why not???it really gives you a great and diferent perspective of what players all around game is about while they're on the court.
at the end of the day the PER numbers dont lie;check this out:
Parker 3 NBA rings Paul 0
Ginobili 3 NBA rings Lebron 0

We can go beyond that and check the team's records in reg.season's games or playoffs.I'm sure Manu and Parker got better % of wins tham Paul and Lebron.
I really think PER gives a better perspective tham just PPG,RPG,APG

I know we are in spurs message board but comparing Tony and Manu this year with the two best players in the game since the beginning of the season is silly.

I don't say we can't compare them in terms of what they have accomplished in their carreer or even on a pure talent level because I do think it is closer than many nba fans would think, I am just making the point that these stats are deceiving because they lead to think Tony and Manu have outplayed those superstars this year which is clearly not the case.
These ranking are misleading because some of the players haven't played half of the minutes of the others.

[Ghjkll]

Well, to be fair, Tony and Manu are blessed to play alongside Tim Duncan... That´s a hell of a difference when you are comparing those two to Lebron/Paul. Tim in his absolut peak led a bunch of vets and young and inexperienced players to a title.
Of course they are all-star material, but not in the same page as those two, who are superstars and 1st options-type players.
Just my two cents.

[TDMVPDPOY]

ghill > manu + tp

[anakha]

ghill > manu + tp

I applaud your willingness to martyr yourself for both the Church of Manu and the Church of Tony. :lol

[ShoogarBear]

at the end of the day the PER numbers dont lie;check this out:
Parker 3 NBA rings Paul 0
Ginobili 3 NBA rings Lebron 0

Lifetime PER
LeBron James : 25.4
Chris Paul: 24.8
Manu Ginobili: 21.5
Tony Parker: 17.9

What is it exactly you are a Profesor of?

[tav1]

Lifetime PER
LeBron James : 25.4
Chris Paul: 24.8
Manu Ginobili: 21.5
Tony Parker: 17.9

What is it exactly you are a Profesor of?

I'm just taking a guess here, but perhaps spelling?

[barbacoataco]

Once again Hollinger's efforts are barely interesting and mostly BS. He bothers me more than any other analyst. The whole reason he spends so much time defending his statistical methods is that they are obviously flawed even at first glance.

[Man Mountain]

1 - LeBron James, CLE - 32.53
2 - Chris Paul, NOR - 30.14
3 - Dwyane Wade, MIA - 29
4 - Dwight Howard, ORL - 25.9
5 - Kobe Bryant, LAL - 25.09
6 - Carlos Boozer, UTH - 24.81
7 - Brandon Roy, POR - 24.48
8 - Tim Duncan, SAS - 24.27
9 - Devin Harris, NJN - 24.24
10 - Tony Parker, SAS - 23.58
11 - Shaquille O'Neal, PHO - 23.49
12 - Dirk Nowitzki, DAL - 23.41
13 - Chris Bosh, TOR - 23.35
14 - Al Jefferson, MIN - 22.78
15 - Yao Ming, HOU - 22.73
16 - Danny Granger, IND - 22.49
17 - Amare Stoudemire, PHO - 22.25
18 - Pau Gasol, LAL - 22.2
19 - Vince Carter, NJN - 21.94
20 - Manu Ginobili, SAS - 21.2



Two players top ten....three players top twenty? :wow

[timvp]

Parker's game isn't too PER-friendly so it's impressive that he's still in the top ten. Although I assume he'll start to slide down the list once Ginobili is ready to take on a bigger load. Speaking of Ginobili, it's impressive he's in the top 20 considering he's still working his way back.

[urunobili]

Parker's game isn't too PER-friendly so it's impressive that he's still in the top ten. Although I assume he'll start to slide down the list once Ginobili is ready to take on a bigger load. Speaking of Ginobili, it's impressive he's in the top 20 considering he's still working his way back.

the weird thing is that Manu on his first 3, 4 games was number 1 among Guards and international players and second overall... this shows that his funk is mentally and nothing else but that... if the three start falling in again he should start climbing and finish in his usual top 5 on PER

[smeagol]

Is PER really meaningfull?

[mathbzh]

Is PER really meaningfull?

As meaningfull as a stat can be I suppose.