Joe the Welfare Queen...

[Nbadan]

...turns out ole Joe took someone else's hard earned money and stuck it in his pocket....


ZPzW2XELAfw

[xeromass]

Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry!

Whose idea was to make a political analyst out of a plumber? Fucking freakshow.

[sook]

please stop giving this buffoon airtime....


"I picked up Karl Marx's dictionary and read it today.."


:rollin

[baseline bum]

Joe the plumber got owned by Colmes? :lmao

[Oh, Gee!!]

scroll through the other videos. in one, joe admits to being on welfare.

[PixelPusher]

I can't believe 101A actually voted for this guy.

[DarrinS]

911 twoofers starting threads with "Queen" in the title. Who'da thunk it?

[johnsmith]

DAN, THE ELECTION IS OVER



SHUT THE FUCK UP!

[PixelPusher]

I can't believe 101A actually voted for this guy.
You know, on second thought, maybe it's downright poetic that you chose this guy as your symbolic protest vote. Self-deluded, ignorant, hypocritical...this guy really is the quintessential "True American".

[AntiChrist]

DAN, THE ELECTION IS OVER



SHUT THE FUCK UP!


He's just pissed about Prop 8.

[samikeyp]

Hey Joe...

14:56, 14:57, 14:58...

[johnsmith]

Hey Joe...

14:56, 14:57, 14:58...

It may be coming to an end nationally, but here at spurstalk.com, Dan and Boutons will make sure it keeps going, and going, and going, and going.

[samikeyp]

It may be coming to an end nationally, but here at spurstalk.com, Dan and Boutons will make sure it keeps going, and going, and going, and going.

Not if Joe goes away.

[johnsmith]

Not if Joe goes away.

They will make sure he doesn't go too far.


It's what keeps people like Dan going in life.

[boutons_]

dubya's culpability will last forever, and the disasters he's leaving Obama will last for years, as Obama warned, years, like even more than a 4-year term.

In case any of you right-wing dubya suckers forget (like you were changing TV channels), Iraq is destroyed, dubya broke it, he owns it.

[johnsmith]

dubya's culpability will last forever, and the disasters he's leaving Obama will last for years, as Obama warned, years, like even more than a 4-year term.

Iraq is destroyed, dubya broke it, he owns it even if he didn't fix it.

And that is totally relevant as it pertains to this thread................wait, my bad, it doesn't have anything to do with this thread.



Out of curiousity though, since dubya is culpable for well, forever as you put it, does that mean Clinton is culpable for starting the mortgage crisis..............forever?

[ClingingMars]

are you kidding me? why do democrats feel the need to attack Joe the Plumber? is it because he exposed Obama? this is pathetic.

-Mars

[johnsmith]

Nothing Boutons???????//


Coward.

[Bartleby]

Why did the GOP make such a total jackass their posterboy for the 08 election? Why do conservatives feel the need to defend him? Is it because they identify with him?

[TheProfessor]

are you kidding me? why do democrats feel the need to attack Joe the Plumber? is it because he exposed Obama? this is pathetic.

-Mars
Eh, Joe's a media whore that used McCain as much as McCain used him. He's fair game.

[ChumpDumper]

are you kidding me? why do democrats feel the need to attack Joe the Plumber?Easy, high profile target.

[ClingingFarts]

are you kidding me? why do democrats feel the need to attack Joe the Plumber? is it because he exposed Obama? this is pathetic.

-Mars

One might also ask why a stupid fucker like you signs every post.

-Farts

[samikeyp]

are you kidding me? why do democrats feel the need to attack Joe the Plumber? is it because he exposed Obama? this is pathetic.

-Mars
If you don't want to be criticized, stay off the air.

[baseline bum]

It's just ridiculously funny to see a guy on welfare complain about big government.

[Anti.Hero]

Look how the left tore into a simple man who asked one fucking question to the Great One's face.

Did the right do this to the sob story fools in Obama's infomercial?

The left is pathetic. They are what they bitch about.

[PixelPusher]

Look how the left tore into a simple man who asked one fucking question to the Great One's face.

Did the right do this to the sob story fools in Obama's infomercial?

The left is pathetic. They are what they bitch about.

A "simple man" doesn't mug for every camera, microphone and book agent. But what do you care; you're not really interested in a flesh and blood man named Samuel Wurzelbacher, you're all about the mythical, fictional character dubbed "Joe the Plumber".

[ChumpDumper]

Yeah, he's a simple man with an agent.

Dude is fair game.

[Anti.Hero]

Of course he is fair game. Everyone is fair game.

It's just pathetic how the left ripped into to this guy for asking obamamama a simple question.


Bitch about Patriot Act and then background check the fuck out of him. :toast

[ChumpDumper]

Nah, it was awesome. I like how he keeps coming back for more after getting owned.

He should post here.

[florige]

This guys is a freakin douche! He is one of those people who doesn't have a pot to piss in, but wants to sound like he knows wtf he is talking about. Dumbass is probably still an apprentice. I wish that guy Shep would had interviewed his dumbass.

[PixelPusher]

Of course he is fair game. Everyone is fair game.

It's just pathetic how the left ripped into to this guy for asking obamamama a simple question.


Bitch about Patriot Act and then background check the fuck out of him. :toast

Actually, he's been ripped for being a hypocritical shill who ignored the substance of Obama's very polite, civil answer.

It is only too perfect that you guys place this made-up myth on a pedestal to represent you.

[JohnnyMarzetti]

It may be coming to an end nationally, but here at spurstalk.com, Dan and Boutons will make sure it keeps going, and going, and going, and going.

The election may be over but the job of getting the Country back on track has just begun dumbass.

[TheMadHatter]

Joe the Plumber sums up the state of the Republican Party and the Conservative movement. They literally have no message or ideas worth a damn anymore. They are morally and intellectually bankrupt.

Joe the Plumber is their last pathetic attempt at appearing relevant to the common man. The bottom line is this, Joe DID ask Obama a legitimate question and Obama answered him in a civil manner. It turns out that Joe was lying the entire time, and he is actually in no position to own a small business or anything of the like thus making his "question" nothing more than a hit job attempt by the Republican party. To make matters worse this moron goes on every TV station he can saying that Obama would bring about the death of Israel. He knows nothing about what he speaks of and yet wants people out there to take him seriously. He absolutely deserves any and all shit he is getting flung his way. Anyone who would defend this moron IS a moron.

[MannyIsGod]

First of all, Joe the plumber needs to learn that democracy can mean you live in a socialist nation. I'm sick of people who can't even use the proper terminology because they have no idea what the hell they're talking about. Secondly, the dude should just stfu about taking other people's money considering he's been on fucking welfare. Thats absolutely inane. He paid into welfare? Is that a fucking joke? This guy is a joke and I can't wait till he disappears.

As for Anti Hero's use of the victim card here, its downright laughable. Joe has put himself in the national spotlight as a surrogate for McCain and as a figure for the conservative movement. Pointing out how ridiculous and uninformed his notions are is not pathetic by any means. If Joe continues to give interviews and speak out on subjects for which he has absolutely no authority on he should continue to expect to be shown for the fool he is.

Obama is against democracy. HA.

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

Obama was walking around the neighborhood with cameras. Joe came up and asked a legitimate question. He personalized the question when he should have parsed it in hypothetical terms. While not ideal, it's hardly criminal and, left alone, really wouldn't have been so bad.

Obama answered his question, not just in a civil manner, but in a very difficult one for a politician - he answered it honestly. He didn't backtrack on his policies. He didn't double-talk. He admitted that his policy would cause a few people to pay slightly higher taxes and that was something that had to happen for the benefit of the majority of a nation. Most Americans understand, that's something a leader does.

Had the exchange ended there, it would have been a mild footnote. But Fox News and Drudge decided to highlight this exchange as though it were somehow an embarrassment for Obama. They leaned on it so much that the McCain people - without vetting (they probably thought that surely Fox News would have looked into the guy) - decided to use Joe as a poster child, mentioning him 11 times. ELEVEN TIMES during a nationally televised debate.

The media then vetted the person who was so important to McCain's pitch that he mentioned him 11 times. Come to find out Joe is a bit of a fibber, a whore for anyone with a camera and not that bright on the issues. This is the media's job and they haven't been doing enough of it in the last 8 years.

Joe has chased everyone one of his 15 minutes of fame. He aligned himself with the campaign. You can't complain about being famous and then whore for the camera and shill. Well, you can, but it makes you look like a hypocrite and an idiot.

No one attacked Joe the Plumber for asking a question. They merely pointed out that his question was insincere and shouldn't have been used as a public platform by McCain. Everything following that Joe has brought onto himself. Which begs the question -- if Joe's problem was so common, why didn't a properly vetted person present it?

[johnsmith]

The election may be over but the job of getting the Country back on track has just begun dumbass.

Thank you Captain Cliche. And we all know that they way to get the country back on track is to continue rehashing the same old garbage from the campaign over and over again.



Moron.

[boutons_]

"Joe The Plumber" will be one of the great, memorable, completely silly jokes of the 2008 campaign.

It was McNasty, not Obama, not the press, not the left, who robotically, stupidly repeated this guy's name in the debate, elevating him to false importance, thinking JTP was going to win McNasty some votes.

JTP is obviously trying to spin his instant celebrity into big bucks. Sure beats installing toilets.

Exit polls show that Obama won +10% in Joe's $40-$45K income range.

Can Joe afford a shirt a little upmarket from a tee-shirt for his national TV appearances? Or is this "plumber-wanna-be business casual"? :lol

Defending dubya as hero, defending JTP as a victim, loving pitbull bitch, is how trivial and irrelevant the right wing has become.

[101A]

It wasn't Joe the Plumber.

It wasn't even Obama's policies.

It was, simply the phrase "Spread the Wealth Around".

It offends the sensibilities of many people in this country. Other people feel it is appropriate. It is the single most divisive issue in politics and economics. Both sides feel the other side is being greedy on the issue (both are, btw). McCain got a little traction with it, while he had a campaign with ABSOLUTELY NO traction. He spotlighted the issue, but made too much of this single guy - which then gave the Dems a target. They fired. The media then gave the dude rope, and, well, he hasn't finished hanging himself with it (on the other hand, dude is probably gonna make more $$$ in these few months than he ever has before - not gonna shed any tears, or chastise him for taking the low-hanging fruit).

And, Pixel, wtf is your hangup with me? I've not posted in this thread; nothing. Sucker punch much?

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

It was, simply the phrase "Spread the Wealth Around".

It offends the sensibilities of many people in this country. Other people feel it is appropriate. It is the single most divisive issue in politics and economics.

Agreed, but I don't think anyone can deny that this issue got plenty of airplay in the days leading up to the election. This point was driven home in the media, in political ads, and by the candidates themselves. The case was made and the majority still clearly went with Obama.

Trying to imply now that everyone focused on Joe the Plumber and didn't get a chance to hear the "real arguement" and blaming it on the media is silly when the socialist label was over the news all day everyday.

The truth that makes Republicans upset and afraid is that the majority of Americans realize that a little socialism in their largely capitalist society might not be such a bad balance. It will keep the rabid capitalists from pushing too far. That the right tried to paint small social programs as broad-sweeping extreme socialism is where they failed to get any respect for their argument.

Truthfully, a well-organized right is something I would welcome greatly because I don't want the left pushing too far into the socialist cup. Here's hoping the right regoups and does their job.

[boutons_]

Raising taxes 35% to 39% on top brackets is socialism?

Leaving the rate at 35% is not socialism?

The socialism slime is a huge, extremely vague red herring, pure scare-mongering. The US is already a mixed capitalist/socialist system.

The capitalist/financial sector is badly broken through its own fault and the fault of conservatives destroying regulation, causing enormous, long-term pain in The Real Economy, whose "common wealth" is being redistributed to the financial/sector with no return to the The Real Economy.

[101A]

Agreed, but I don't think anyone can deny that this issue got plenty of airplay in the days leading up to the election. This point was driven home in the media, in political ads, and by the candidates themselves. The case was made and the majority still clearly went with Obama.

Trying to imply now that everyone focused on Joe the Plumber and didn't get a chance to hear the "real arguement" and blaming it on the media is silly when the socialist label was over the news all day everyday.

The truth that makes Republicans upset and afraid is that the majority of Americans realize that a little socialism in their largely capitalist society might not be such a bad balance. It will keep the rabid capitalists from pushing too far. That the right tried to paint small social programs as broad-sweeping extreme socialism is where they failed to get any respect for their argument.

Truthfully, a well-organized right is something I would welcome greatly because I don't want the left pushing too far into the socialist cup. Here's hoping the right regoups and does their job.

I don't disagree with anything you have said.

This country is pretty adept at self-correction.

My only fear is new entitlement programs that grow out of control.

Been meaning to post, btw, and this is a good place for it...I think Obama's ideas of tax credits are actually pretty shrewd. If they get out of control, it's a hell of a lot easier to modify tax code, than to change a new entitlement program. If we are going to do more wealth spreading; which apparently the country wants, better to do it this way, than LBJ's way, IMO.

[101A]

Raising taxes 35% to 39% on top brackets is socialism?

Leaving the rate at 35% is not socialism?

The socialism slime is a huge, extremely vague red herring, pure scare-mongering. The US is already a mixed capitalist/socialist system.

The capitalist/financial sector is badly broken through its own fault and the fault of conservatives destroying regulation, causing enormous, long-term pain in The Real Economy, whose "common wealth" is being redistributed to the financial/sector with no return to the The Real Economy.

I've actually laughed openly about this very fact.

39% = Marxist.

35.5% = Greedy imperial capitilist

Hell, the two tax platforms EASILY could have come from two camps of a single politician's advisors! They are so similar, it's stupid. BOTH sides were guilty of overreaching rhetoric.

[Spurminator]

Let. It. Die.

Look, Joe certainly hasn't earned any sympathy but he's not scheduling his own interviews. His celebrity has been a national embarrassment and a poor reflection on a lot of people besides him. Can we please forget about it?

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

Look, Joe certainly hasn't earned any sympathy but he's not scheduling his own interviews.

Have I missed the appearances where the press is breaking into his house and forcing him on camera? Most of the time I see him there's a studio backdrop behind him. That pretty much has to be scheduled.

[clambake]

This guys is a freakin douche! He is one of those people who doesn't have a pot to piss in, but wants to sound like he knows wtf he is talking about. Dumbass is probably still an apprentice. I wish that guy Shep would had interviewed his dumbass.

he did interview him, and ripped him a new one. :lol

shep thinks he's crazy, and not "fun" crazy. shep thinks he's mental.

[Spurminator]

Have I missed the appearances where the press is breaking into his house and forcing him on camera? Most of the time I see him there's a studio backdrop behind him. That pretty much has to be scheduled.

What I'm saying is he's not calling up cable stations asking to be interviewed.

[clambake]

What I'm saying is he's not calling up cable stations asking to be interviewed.

thats what the agent is for.

[Spurminator]

Didn't know about the agent. Shows how much I've been paying attention to him. But it doesn't surprise me, since I'm sure publishers are clammoring for a Joe the Plumber memoir.

Either way, the stations still have to give him air time, and for that to happen, people have to care what he has to say. He's a dumbass, but no more than several million other people in this country.

When is Tito the Builder's next appearance?

[clambake]

Either way, the stations still have to give him air time, and for that to happen, people have to care what he has to say. He's a dumbass

fox brings him on to bitch slap. he has no safe haven.

he's too stupid to recognize that.

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

Either way, the stations still have to give him air time, and for that to happen, people have to care what he has to say. He's a dumbass, but no more than several million other people in this country.

I could be wrong, but other than just after the third debate when McCain made him relevant, I haven't seen him on any network other than Fox, except when he was used as a prop at a rally. But I don't know what the statistics are on his network appearances.

The only people keeping this guy relevant, really, are those slanted toward the right. The rest of us are just laughing about him. He'll be a cultural footnote in a few months.

[florige]

he did interview him, and ripped him a new one. :lol

shep thinks he's crazy, and not "fun" crazy. shep thinks he's mental.



I have to youtube that then. That jerk just annoys the hell out of me. What he is doing/done is almost the equilvalant of me walking into a Porsche dealership wasting the salesman's time for 4 hours only for him to find out that there is no way in hell I can afford ANY car at the place.

[Spurminator]

fox brings him on to bitch slap.

Why?

[clambake]

Why?

fox is pandering now. they don't want to be the minority, and newscorp is about to have a massive layoff.

[florige]

Why?


Fox has been doing that to everybody it seems as of late. They drilled Nader the other day...:lol

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

Fox has been doing that to everybody it seems as of late. They drilled Nader the other day...:lol

Nader drilled himself.

[Spurminator]

I could be wrong, but other than just after the third debate when McCain made him relevant, I haven't seen him on any network other than Fox, except when he was used as a prop at a rally. But I don't know what the statistics are on his network appearances.

The only people keeping this guy relevant, really, are those slanted toward the right. The rest of us are just laughing about him. He'll be a cultural footnote in a few months.

I recall several networks showing up at his house in the early days. It's when he started offering up some of his more ridiculous opinions.

He's an unremarkable dunce who has become (depending on who you are) an example of the hypocracy and limited perspective of the Right, or an example of how the "Left Wing Media" will go out of its way to tear down anyone who does not share their ideology.

The precedent just makes me uncomfortable. Man confronts political candidate and the conversation is broadcast nationally. Man becomes symbol and hero of political candidate's opponent. Man becomes celebrity by virtue of being mentioned repeatedly in Presidential Debate and on campaign trail. Man embraces newfound celebrity (as many people would). Man's personal life becomes part of the public conversation.

Frankly, the only thing Joe the Plumber did differently than millions of other people in this country is challenge a Presidential Candidate's tax policy. His surge to national celebrity was not his doing. Does anyone doubt that even if he had refused to talk to reporters outside of his home, there would have still been digging into his past?

Clearly (and fortunately), this particular person doesn't seem to care or realize what a joke he's become, and doesn't have the capacity for personal shame that would drive a lot of people into seclusion after such a ride. Of course, he's also getting a lot of mixed signals from different people hoping to capitalize on him. Still, the probing into his personal life (his income, his real name, his welfare status, etc.) is not directly tied to his willingness to vocalize his jackassery to the media, IMO.

I don't care about Joe as an individual, but I do care that our tabloid perspective on life makes us feel entitled to dissect people like him. Who will be next?

[florige]

Nader drilled himself.


True.:lol I'm just used to watching Katie Couric and Brian Williams thrown out softball questions to the people they interview. I'm not used to seeing reporters drill people no matter what they might say...

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

I recall several networks showing up at his house in the early days. It's when he started offering up some of his more ridiculous opinions.
Yeah, but the early days were a vetting process of a guy the McCain campaign was touting. The media had an obligation here. Think about the cries of liberal media bias that would have been lobbed out if Joe the Plumber had been ignored as a dunce. As it turns out they were denounced for vetting him, but that is actually what they're for. It's just been so long since the media has done their jobs that people forget what it looks like.


The precedent just makes me uncomfortable. The only precedent is that the McCain camp put so much emphasis on him without vetting him. The practice of singling out people who become icons of a certain kind of politics is common and often unfortunate. Just as Rasputin.


Frankly, the only thing Joe the Plumber did differently than millions of other people in this country is challenge a Presidential Candidate's tax policy. His surge to national celebrity was not his doing. Does anyone doubt that even if he had refused to talk to reporters outside of his home, there would have still been digging into his past?
Obama had like 10,000 cameras on him when Joe issued his challenge. Painting the guy like a shy little violet now is a bit much. Plenty of people asked Obama questions on camera while he was campaigning. The McCain camp didn't make celebrities out of all of them. Fox and Drudge highlighted the Joe issue and McCain bit on it. As for refusing to talk to reporters, it seems to be working out okay for B on her face girl. She's not all over Fox News.


Still, the probing into his personal life (his income, his real name, his welfare status, etc.) is not directly tied to his willingness to vocalize his jackassery to the media, IMO.

I don't care about Joe as an individual, but I do care that our tabloid perspective on life makes us feel entitled to dissect people like him. Who will be next?
Making sure the next person thinks twice before asking a deciving question to a political figure is exactly why this was important. Had Joe's question not been personal it wouldn't have had half the impact. "Your plan might in theory cost someone money" is not the same as "Your plan will cost me money and prevent me from establishing my own business." Hundreds, if not thousands of people had already asked Obama the theorhetical question. What made Joe's challenge unique was his supposed personal angle and that's why Fox, Drudge, and McCain jumped on him as a "living, breathing example" of people who would be victims of Obama's tax plan. That fact that it was all based on a lie is valid to explore.

Vetting a person held up as an example by a major political figure is basic media responsibility 101. Otherwise what is to discourage having campaigns hire actors to pretend to be "men on the street" to sabotage the other side and get soundbites?

[clambake]

it is an unimaginable amount of incompetance from the right.

he needs to be scorched.

[Spurminator]

Yeah, but the early days were a vetting process of a guy the McCain campaign was touting. The media had an obligation here. Think about the cries of liberal media bias that would have been lobbed out if Joe the Plumber had been ignored as a dunce. As it turns out they were denounced for vetting him, but that is actually what they're for. It's just been so long since the media has done their jobs that people forget what it looks like.

Vetting him as an individual misses the point. Joe was held up by the McCain campaign as a symbol of how Obama's tax plan would affect small business owners. A truly responsible media would explore Obama's tax plan as it relates to small business owners and analyze whether such a plan truly crushes the American Dream. But the American audience would become bored with that kind of analysis, preferring tabloid journalism instead. Through all of the digging into whether Joe actually made what he said he made, or whether he was actually who he said he was, the average American viewer heard nothing about whether Obama's plan would actually hurt Joe the Plumber and to what extent.



The only precedent is that the McCain camp put so much emphasis on him without vetting him. The practice of singling out people who become icons of a certain kind of politics is common and often unfortunate. Just as Rasputin.

Agreed.



Obama had like 10,000 cameras on him when Joe issued his challenge.

I only saw one camera angle on the video that made its way around the internet.


Painting the guy like a shy little violet now is a bit much. Plenty of people asked Obama questions on camera while he was campaigning. The McCain camp didn't make celebrities out of all of them. Fox and Drudge highlighted the Joe issue and McCain bit on it.

I'm not painting him as shy but it's irrelevant. The video made rounds because Obama said "Spreading the Wealth." If he had been caught on tape making that statement to Patricia the Bashful Seamstress, she would have been the one getting mentioned 22 times in a Presidential Debate.



Making sure the next person thinks twice before asking a deciving question to a political figure is exactly why this was important. Had Joe's question not been personal it wouldn't have had half the impact. "Your plan might in theory cost someone money" is not the same as "Your plan will cost me money and prevent me from establishing my own business." Hundreds, if not thousands of people had already asked Obama the theorhetical question. What made Joe's challenge unique was his supposed personal angle and that's why Fox, Drudge, and McCain jumped on him as a "living, breathing example" of people who would be victims of Obama's tax plan. That fact that it was all based on a lie is valid to explore.

Again, Joe's challenge was only unique because it caused Obama to answer in a way that could be construed as advocating socialism. That's all.


Vetting a person held up as an example by a major political figure is basic media responsibility 101. Otherwise what is to discourage having campaigns hire actors to pretend to be "men on the street" to sabotage the other side and get soundbites?

I disagree completely with the idea that private citizens should be vetted for talking to political candidates. I'd rather candidates run the risk of answering questions from actors than citizens' personal lives be subject to probing for political exploitation. That's a bit too Big Brother for my tastes.

[PixelPusher]

And, Pixel, wtf is your hangup with me? I've not posted in this thread; nothing. Sucker punch much?

Yeah, in retrospect it was a sucker punch. My apologies.

It's more of a hangup with the martyrdom bestowed upon the mythical being known as "Joe the Plumber". This is the stuff shadows in Plato's cave are made of. It drags yet another issue into the "sacred belief" weeds.

[Joe the plumber]

Hey, do as I say not as I've done.

[MannyIsGod]

Hey, do as I say not as I've done.

:lol

[ClingingMars]

One might also ask why a stupid fucker like you signs every post.

-Farts

one might ask why a stupid fucker like you feels the need to troll me.

-Mars

[ClingingMars]

Actually, he's been ripped for being a hypocritical shill who ignored the substance of Obama's very polite, civil answer.

"spreading the wealth is good for everyone?"

ahahahahahahahahah

substance? more like SOCIALISM.

-Mars

[MannyIsGod]

One might also ask why a stupid fucker like you signs every post.

-Farts

:lmao

:tu

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

Vetting him as an individual misses the point.
Vetting him as an individual happened because he presented himself as an example. Had he simply posed a theoretical question I don't think he'd have gotten much attention and he wouldn't have been vetted, but I have no alternate reality crystal ball to prove that. I know that by holding himself up as an example, he invited scrutiny. He tried to ambush and it backfired. He'd actually have been able to deliver the punchline and run if not for McCain.


Joe was held up by the McCain campaign as a symbol of how Obama's tax plan would affect small business owners.
Exactly. An example he did not meet. If Obama's tax plan is going to affect small business owners so badly, where are the scores of them that should be lining up to say so?


A truly responsible media would explore Obama's tax plan as it relates to small business owners and analyze whether such a plan truly crushes the American Dream.
You are confusing the role of the media with that of the opposition party and expert analysts.


Through all of the digging into whether Joe actually made what he said he made, or whether he was actually who he said he was, the average American viewer heard nothing about whether Obama's plan would actually hurt Joe the Plumber and to what extent.
Joe the Plumber will be getting a tax cut under Obama's plan. All the McCain camp had to do was find people who actually would be hurt by Obama's tax plan and put them in a room with Joe the Plumber and some cameras. If there were so many of these people, then they should have been easy for Republicans to find. The truth is that this theorhetical borderline of people that are going to be hurt by Obama's plan really don't exist in any significant numbers and if they do, they are dwarfed by those who will benefit.


I only saw one camera angle on the video that made its way around the internet. Meh, I don't have any proof one way or the other, but I find it hard to believe Obama was walking around with only 1 camera.


I'm not painting him as shy but it's irrelevant. The video made rounds because Obama said "Spreading the Wealth." If he had been caught on tape making that statement to Patricia the Bashful Seamstress, she would have been the one getting mentioned 22 times in a Presidential Debate.
America heard the soundbite over and over and over. Republicans had every chance in the world to attack this whole "spread the wealth" angle. In the end, voters decided they'd rather a few people get slightly screwed in favor of the majority getting tax breaks. Joe has been revealed as a fraud, but his being a fraud did not stop Republicans from making their argument. That they couldn't sell their side is not the media's fault.


Again, Joe's challenge was only unique because it caused Obama to answer in a way that could be construed as advocating socialism. That's all.
Lots of people had posed that same question. What made Joe's challenge unique was that it personalized a theorhetical question. And the element that made it unique was revealed to be untrue.


I disagree completely with the idea that private citizens should be vetted for talking to political candidates.
He was not vetted for talking to Obama. He was not vetted for asking a question. He was vetted for holding himself up as an example. Actually he wasn't even vetted for that - he got away with it. He was vetted because McCain held him up as an example. A theorhetical question doesn't care who asks it - there is no credibility issue. A personal question requires credibility.

"Your plan might cost some people their businesses."
This is a simple theorhetical statement that requires only third party proof and thus the credibilty of the person stating the question is less important that the proof offered in its favor.

"Your plan will cost me my business."
This person is offering themselves as proof and their credibility is directly linked to the validity of their statement.


I'd rather candidates run the risk of answering questions from actors than citizens' personal lives be subject to probing for political exploitation. That's a bit too Big Brother for my tastes.
Big brother invaded for no reason and made it a crime. Joe invited attention by putting himself out there and, for all that he's been called on, he has not been criminalized. Your "anyone can publiclly make any claim and never be investigated by the media" point of view makes me cringe, but I suppose there are different sides to every coin.

[Spurminator]

I'm going to refrain from doing another sentence-by-sentence response. Suffice it to say, a lot of your position sounds like "Spying is okay if you're not doing anything illegal." I don't feel that you invite media digging into your personal life by asking a personal question of a political candidate when cameras are around but I suppose that's just a fundamental disagreement we have. And Joe most certainly was not the only person to ask how Obama's Presidency would affect his personal business. It's just that the others were fortunate enough that Obama did not utter "spread the wealth" on camera as a response to their questions.

[clambake]

if joe were sincere, he wouldn't have lied about his personal position.

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

I'm going to refrain from doing another sentence-by-sentence response. Suffice it to say, a lot of your position sounds like "Spying is okay if you're not doing anything illegal." I don't feel that you invite media digging into your personal life by asking a personal question of a political candidate when cameras are around but I suppose that's just a fundamental disagreement we have.

Dude. Spying is illegal. Had anyone spied on Joe, this guy would be bilking a lawsuit as fast as he could. Spying is wire-tapping on someone's phone without their knowledge without a warrant. All the information, to the best of my knowledge, presented to the public about Joe was obtained through public records AFTER he was brought to the public's attention by the guy he was supporting.

And, yes, I believe there are consequences for actions. I believe that if I hold myself up as an example of something I should be held to task for it. Free speech means free from criminal consequences, not social ones.

[Spurminator]

Dude. Spying is illegal. Had anyone spied on Joe, this guy would be bilking a lawsuit as fast as he could. Spying is wire-tapping on someone's phone without their knowledge without a warrant. All the information, to the best of my knowledge, presented to the public about Joe was obtained through public records AFTER he was brought to the public's attention by the guy he was supporting.

I'm aware of what spying is, and I know it's illegal. When someone says "Being spied on is okay if you're not doing anything illegal," they're speaking from the perspective that it should be made legal.

Anyway, I'm not suggesting any of the media's actions here infringed on any of Joe's 1st Amendment rights or should be made illegal. But I think it all fits within the same moral umbrella.

My main point is that the whole thing is a poor reflection on society and our media.

[clambake]

My main point is that the whole thing is a poor reflection on society and our media.

joe invited the media to his party. joe took the initial step. joe should have been honest. joe deserves what he gets.

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

I'm aware of what spying is, and I know it's illegal. When someone says "Being spied on is okay if you're not doing anything illegal," they're speaking from the perspective that it should be made legal.

I don't see that anyone has made that case. I don't believe anyone has the right to spy on anyone for any reason, regardless of what comes from it. That guy who hacked Palin's email? 100% wrong. Media vetting of public figures is not spying, and whether for better or worse, McCain and Joe made Joe a public figure.

Yeah, I think tabloid journalism sucks and I'm sure Lady Diana would agree with us. But there is a valid use for vetting. Joe the Plumber is simply a case of the media doing its job. It only looks bullying because the guy is so spectacularly bad at everything.

[Spurminator]

I don't see that anyone has made that case. I don't believe anyone has the right to spy on anyone for any reason, regardless of what comes from it.

Some people do.


Yeah, I think tabloid journalism sucks and I'm sure Lady Diana would agree with us. But there is a valid use for vetting. Joe the Plumber is simply a case of the media doing its job. It only looks bullying because the guy is so spectacularly bad at everything.

Well, again, I think our idea of media responsibility is fundamentally different but I respect yours. To me, Joe's legitimacy as a personification of the overtaxed small business owner was always irrelevant. On a national scale, in terms of what really mattered to this country when deciding who to elect for President, what truly mattered was how small business owners would be affected by an Obama tax plan.

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

Some people do.
Some people also believe that blood sausage tastes good, but none are in this thread ;-)


Well, again, I think our idea of media responsibility is fundamentally different but I respect yours. To me, Joe's legitimacy as a personification of the overtaxed small business owner was always irrelevant. On a national scale, in terms of what really mattered to this country when deciding who to elect for President, what truly mattered was how small business owners would be affected by an Obama tax plan.
I'm happy to agree to disagree. I just think the responsibility to make the case for these alleged small business owners was the responsibility of the opposing party.

I'm self-employed and I had to research for myself what the different tax plans would mean for me. Bottom line, I'm still getting screwed, but Obama's plan screws me slightly less ;-)

[101A]

joe invited the media to his party. joe took the initial step. joe should have been honest. joe deserves what he gets.

If you ask a question of a candidate, YOU are open to absolute and total media scrutiny; to be "vetted" in the public domain?

You think that might have a chilling effect?

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

If you ask a question of a candidate, YOU are open to absolute and total media scrutiny; to be "vetted" in the public domain?

You think that might have a chilling effect?
:bang

[clambake]

If you ask a question of a candidate, YOU are open to absolute and total media scrutiny; to be "vetted" in the public domain?

You think that might have a chilling effect?

:lol i get what your saying, but it was his dishonesty that bit him.

that, and his continued dishonesty about the effects of obama's tax policy.

how can he say "me" and understand how it will affect him? he turned it into a personal attack on him, and he's no where close to the character he's trying to play.

you and i both know it will have little to no effect on us, you and me.

[velik_m]

Some people also believe that blood sausage tastes good, but none are in this thread ;-)

They do taste good.

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

They do taste good.
Great, now the blood sausage contingent is here. :p:

[baseline bum]

They do taste good.

You should be put to death for eating blood; it is written in the book.

[Nbadan]

This ass-hat just keeps on giving...


Joe the Plumber is plumb perturbed that Ohio officials ran background checks on him after John McCain mentioned him in a presidential debate - and he's out for revenge.

Joe Wurzelbacher thinks Democrats were partly behind the checks so he's thinking about a new career, giving up his wrenches, valves and PVC pipe to keep an eye on politicians, presumably Barack Obama and other Democrats.

Joe told Newsmax.com he could "better serve my fellow man by working with a new watchdog group I'm coming up with." That group can be found at SecureOurDream.com.

He said the group "essentially will hold politicians accountable and make them remember that they actually got into this business to serve their fellow man, and not themselves."

Link (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2008/11/05/2008-11-05_joe_the_plumber_eyes_new_career_as_gover.html)

Joe is on his 20th minute of his 15 minutes of fame..

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

This ass-hat just keeps on giving...

Link (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2008/11/05/2008-11-05_joe_the_plumber_eyes_new_career_as_gover.html)

Joe is on his 20th minute of his 15 minutes of fame..

I hope the state officials are being investigated for this if it's true. It's that kind of ridiculousness that gives crackpots like this guy legitimacy.

[xeromass]

He said the group "essentially will hold politicians accountable"

Apparently he really wants the promised tax raise.:lmao