Automakers struggle to survive past mistakes

[ducks]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081109/ap_on_bi_ge/autos_what_happened;_ylt=AlnFo3gQXh_3k3_OVK_SBjwGw _IE

they make the mistake and expect you the tax payer to bail their stupid mistakes.


because it might save a few jobs

[cool hand]

here's one mistake. after everyone has a car, who else do you sell to....?? these guys bank on the fact that people want to trade in their cars on a whim.......well, stop that and you bring the industry to its knees.....let them fail.......maybe they will start selling a car at more decent price.

[cool hand]

wtf, are reid and pelosi crying about.....they are on the take.

I thought democraps didn't want to help big coorporations.

[byrontx]

The impact of the auto industry is huge. Even the local car dealerships pump a lot more money into the local economy than one might think. It is ironic that the auto manufacturers who always lay a lot of money on the Republicans (to avoid higher CAFE standards among other things) are looking to the Democrats to save their ass. Actually, had they gone with higher CAFE standards it would be saving their ass right now.

The Chinese, like Chery Motors, would be smart to pick up a brand for its instant distribution chain but it would most likely mean losing high-paying manufacturing jobs here in the US.

I would like to see us help this industry, with strings attached. Their claim that the market determines product mantra is proven wrong. The market changed and they were incapable of providing product in a timely fashion that would meet the new needs of consumers. Breathing space has to be coupled to developing and moving to greener technologies.

[spurster]

After they fire all their stupid high-level execs, maybe it would be useful to consider helping them. Now I see lots of stupid commercials doing incredibly stupid things with high-powered pickups that maybe 1% of us need. If they want help, they need to change too.

[byrontx]

In the US the "Make the rich richer/Trickle-Down economics/exorbitant-pay-for-execs" philosophy is driving the US into the ground. It has destroyed the financial sector and it is taking the auto industry, too. Among the execs of the big three auto manufacturers was a complete lack of long-range planning; relying on marketing gimmicks and cheap money to move bloated, inefficient autos. Heads should roll.

Republicans will attempt to pin the blame on unions or worker quality but the problems occurred at the top. The workers that will feel the pain had little to do with the problems that are bringing the companies down.

http://www.beggarscanbechoosers.com/2008/11/despite-gms-staggering-losses-ceo-still.html

Although Japanese CEO pay is not publicly disclosed, it is estimated to be only a fraction of what U.S. automaker CEOs make. For example, the estimated pay of Toyota's CEO in 2005 was under $1 million.

In fact, in recent years, U.S. CEOs have made vastly more than what their counterparts make in other nations. For example, in 2005, a typical Japanese executive made 11 times what a typical Japanese worker earned. In the U.S., the average CEO pulled down a staggering 475 times what the typical American worker earned.

[ducks]

these auto people could have made cars with better gas mil for decades and choice not to

[TDMVPDPOY]

same shit is happening in australia atm, bailout for failures :(

why not just give every workn family 15k to go out buy a car, than reimburst car companys who take risky investments...yeh a v8 is very fuel economy...gtfo.

[baseline bum]

How about instead of giving money to these douchebags in Detroit, we help fund a forward-thinking automaker like Tesla that actually has some ideas for the future? Our nation would be so screwed without Silicon Valley innovation.

[Cry Havoc]

http://www.popsci.com/bown/2008/product/2009-nissan-gt-r

That's how you build a car.

[Extra Stout]

Here we go, creating American Leyland and just delaying the inevitable by throwing good money after bad.

The Detroit management culture is irretrievably toxic. Force them all into Chapter 11 so they can restructure whatever is salvageable, and then broker a sale to Japanese automakers. That is the only hope to save the workers' jobs.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

wtf, are reid and pelosi crying about.....they are on the take.

I thought democraps didn't want to help big coorporations.

They don't care about the companies. They care about the unions and their Democratic party support.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

In the US the "Make the rich richer/Trickle-Down economics/exorbitant-pay-for-execs" philosophy is driving the US into the ground. It has destroyed the financial sector and it is taking the auto industry, too. Among the execs of the big three auto manufacturers was a complete lack of long-range planning; relying on marketing gimmicks and cheap money to move bloated, inefficient autos. Heads should roll.

Republicans will attempt to pin the blame on unions or worker quality but the problems occurred at the top. The workers that will feel the pain had little to do with the problems that are bringing the companies down.

http://www.beggarscanbechoosers.com/2008/11/despite-gms-staggering-losses-ceo-still.html

Although Japanese CEO pay is not publicly disclosed, it is estimated to be only a fraction of what U.S. automaker CEOs make. For example, the estimated pay of Toyota's CEO in 2005 was under $1 million.

In fact, in recent years, U.S. CEOs have made vastly more than what their counterparts make in other nations. For example, in 2005, a typical Japanese executive made 11 times what a typical Japanese worker earned. In the U.S., the average CEO pulled down a staggering 475 times what the typical American worker earned.


The company management and the union management all suck.

It's cute that libtards pretend there's nothing wrong with unions.... except a lot of this bailout is to pay the exorbitant pension packages that the unions have negotiated with the companies in the past.

* Build a better (more fuel efficent and safe) vehicle

* Get rid of the worker unions

Then maybe some money can be thrown their way.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081109/ap_on_bi_ge/autos_what_happened;_ylt=AlnFo3gQXh_3k3_OVK_SBjwGw _IE

they make the mistake and expect you the tax payer to bail their stupid mistakes.


because it might save a few jobs

Just following the Wall Street playbook. That, and they've already met with Reid and Pelosi (and you can bet your ass it happened before the elections) and got a guarantee that for their support they would endorse The Messiah.

[boutons_]

help the auto industry, but with tons of strings attached.

As Gore's 5-point plan calls for, the key strings are help but with the target being plugins and hybrids, not more 2.5 ton SUVs.

No help for auto industry until they accept a new CAFE, with higher MPG and with a much sooner target date. Europe is already there, so there is no technical barrier.

[exstatic]

Detroit hasn't been competitive in the car arena in probably 20 years. They've been relying on higher margins for heavy trucks and SUVs, and doing nothing about improving their cars. Now, the trucks and SUVs are basically radioactive. Game over. They're so fucking broken, I don't think they're worth saving.

[ElNono]

They don't care about the companies. They care about the unions and their Democratic party support.

Just like Bush cares about the golden parachutes of AIG, Goldman Sachs, etc?
I rather bailout a million workers than a hundred execs... That said, there has to be strings attached, starting with building more efficient cars.

[Nbadan]

blaming the Unions is stupid...it's not like union members decide what kinda cars the company should produce...the Japanese Government supported their car companies RandD for years until they build better cars, we need to do the same...

[cherylsteele]

You can put the blame on a lot of people.
The unions seemed to have created some of the problems with their salary, benefits, etc. demands in past contract negotiations. Long ago unions were needed and totally vital, they seem outdated now.

Like some have already said management didn't concentrate on the big picture, and never tried to improve their products, quality, fuel efficiency, etc. Now they are paying for it, and the US economy will end up hurting because of it.

If we put money behind a new car that uses abundant alternative fuel, we would not have alot of the mess we are in. You can look to the Toyota plant here in town. They built only trucks and as the gas prices rose sales declined, and now they close the plant for a few months, at least they are still paying the workers. why don't they built the Corolla and the Tundra at the plant? Even though gas prices are low, don't bet on it being that way forever.

Why can't we make a concerted effort to develop a car that will reduce greatly our dependence on foreign oil? Like we did in the 60's to land on the moon by the end of the decade, make a similar effort in car production.

Oil companies have been price gouging for years. I'll bet they have lobbyist in Washington that suppressed such ideas for years, like the GM EV1. This may not have been a perfect car, but I'll bet if they had kept on manufacturing it, the technology would improve and it would have been a completely viable option.

Drill for oil in new areas is a short term answer only, we need to find an energy source to move away from oil as much as possible.

[Nbadan]

The unions seemed to have created some of the problems with their salary, benefits, etc. demands in past contract negotiations. Long ago unions were needed and totally vital, they seem outdated now.

Maybe in the auto industry in the mid-eastern states, you might have a point, but here in Texas if you don't have a union supported job or your not in a highly sought after technical field, it's hard to make a living wage even with both members of a couple working....and unions have very limited power in Texas...

[cool hand]

we are getting into labor v. management territory like in the late 1800's and early 1900's. I suspect the next thing we will see is labor rights............in 3..........2........1.

[xeromass]

Fucked up part:

GM and Ford both have a successful European division (Opel/Vauxhall & Ford Europe), so there is almost no need for development if you want a more fuel efficient models. Especially if you would go the diesel way. Retool a factory or two and there you are.

[DarkReign]

First and formemost, I am against the American taxpayer bailing any company out. No exceptions.

The Auto Industry employs 3+ million people. They go under and you have kicked the unemployment rate up a couple % points overnight.

If GM declares bankruptcy, both the companies I work for are dead. I wouldnt cry too much and I still hold to my principle that no company should be bailed out.

Problem is you have precedent set with the banking/insurance industry, so Washington cant pick and choose who to bail out, especially when 3 million American jobs are on the line.

So, this just brings me full circle on how much I hate bailouts. It was, is and always will be a slippery slope. Any time a large corporation sees red, we the taxpayer are now going to be there every time to bail them out.

Worst part of this...it will be justified in the eyes of the people because there are 3 million jobs at stake.

Problem is, the first thing these companies will do is close 12-15 American plants to move that work overseas.

So basically we are bailing out companies that already have their bags packed. We're going to give them $150 Billion so they can employ Jose in Mexico and HaBeeb in India. Or worse, they take their production to China (who also just passed a bailout-stimulus package for their tanking economy).

[101A]

First and formemost, I am against the American taxpayer bailing any company out. No exceptions.

The Auto Industry employs 3+ million people. They go under and you have kicked the unemployment rate up a couple % points overnight.

If GM declares bankruptcy, both the companies I work for are dead. I wouldnt cry too much and I still hold to my principle that no company should be bailed out.

Problem is you have precedent set with the banking/insurance industry, so Washington cant pick and choose who to bail out, especially when 3 million American jobs are on the line.

So, this just brings me full circle on how much I hate bailouts. It was, is and always will be a slippery slope. Any time a large corporation sees red, we the taxpayer are now going to be there every time to bail them out.

Worst part of this...it will be justified in the eyes of the people because there are 3 million jobs at stake.

Problem is, the first thing these companies will do is close 12-15 American plants to move that work overseas.

So basically we are bailing out companies that already have their bags packed. We're going to give them $150 Billion so they can employ Jose in Mexico and HaBeeb in India. Or worse, they take their production to China (who also just passed a bailout-stimulus package for their tanking economy).

Why does G.M. have to move plants overseas?

I have two vehicles: Honda and Nissan; BOTH built right here in the U.S. of A.

[DarkReign]

Why does G.M. have to move plants overseas?

I think youre being rhetorical. Some will say its because of the Unions, which just isnt true at all.

If it were, they wouldnt have plants in Canada. Canada has wages set for every position in the country, including auto workers....and they make a helluva lot more than Mexicans/Chinese/Koreans.

They'll move their production because they ultimately see the writing on the wall. How is it Japanese companies can make money hand over fist year-in and year-out by exporting their products, while the domestic competition can not?

Simple.

Americans arent buying American. The vehicles produced by GM/Ford/Chrysler have a stigma attached to them. Most Americans I know of dont think the way we in Michigan/Ohio do. For example, when I was a kid, if you drove a foreign car, that car stays in the street...you dont park it in my father's driveway. Or my neighbors, or any of my friends houses.

Obviously, thats because they were all auto industry dependent, and it wasnt Honda/Toyota/Nissan paying their bills (nor mine even today).

Here is the thing about the auto industry...

It isnt the Union's fault. Sure, they certainly deserve much criticism for protecting the idiot drunks from being fired, while Sam the Hard Working Shlub has to cover for the less-than-diploma retards he works next to. And when janitors make $27 an hour, thats a problem....a big one.

It isnt even the pay-scale of the Executives thats to blame. I dont care what Japan pays their executives by comparison....we dont live in fucking Japan. Here in America, the country over no matter the company, if youre an executive in a large corporation, you pull down millions. Period.


I have two vehicles: Honda and Nissan; BOTH built right here in the U.S. of A.

That is true, they do assemble a good portion of their cars here in the states.

But riddle me this, who are their suppliers? Who designs their equipment? Who builds their equipment (machinery) for their lines? Who makes all the widgets and whats-its that go to their American assembly lines? Who produces the necessary 150,000+ planetary gears needed a year for their entire Ultima/Accord/Scion transmission lines?

Not Americans. Those are mostly imported. I said mostly, not all. But at least 80% of Honda/Nissan/Toyota's parts and equipment suppliers are from foreign sources (mostly Japan, they have restrictions on the means of production, in that X% of the vehicle must be produced domestically...they never said assembled).

So thats where the difference between the Small 3 and the rest of the world. The assembly plants in the States account for only a fraction of what goes into making a vehicle. They are more or less marketing tools for Toyota/Honda/Nissan to say "Look, we make in America!" when in actuality that car's design was fostered in Japan, it was prototyped in Japan, the supplier chain was established in Japan, the suspension system was designed and fabricated and given a production schedule in Japan (mostly by NHK), the transmissions were designed, prototyped and built in Japan (by NHK again) and all the various components are sent on crate barges to be assembled in states like Tennessee, Kentucky, et all.

For one reason, the Southern states are traditionally right-to-work states. Meaning, they can be unionized, but that doesnt protect them the same way it does in the MidWest. I am a big proponent of Michigan becoming a right to work state, but it will never happen (actually, if GM goes under, it will)

Another reason is the cost of living in those states is low compared to the traditional auto MidWest. Michigan is an expensive place to live in comparison to how much you make. Therefore, prospective companies looking to open a plant consider that they can pay a guy $14 an hour in Tennessee and he's happy as clam with that earning wage, where the same guy in Michigan will be asking for a raise every 6 months because $14 dollars an hour never buys you a house here (well, it might start to) and you'll be living in an apartment for the rest of your career.

Ultimately, GM employs about 80,000 Americans (maybe less, dont skewer me) and they plan on cutting that number very, very soon.

But the number of Americans who depend on the auto industry as suppliers of one thing or another numbers about 3 million.

I'd be surprised if Toyota's entire dependent, American workforce numbered 30,000. Much less for Nissan or Honda.

The only thing Nissan/Honda/Toyota depend on America for is to buy their cars. Beyond that incredibly important point, we are not very useful to them.

GM/Ford/Chrysler will move their supplier chains outside America....theyve already started doing it. My company designs a lot of equipment for Ford and GM, and they are all being installed in Korea, Mexico, France and Germany. I think the last line to be installed in America was in Syracuse, New York and Sharonville, Indiana.

We shipped 36 different lines/machines in 2008. 4 went to American plants, the other 32 went somewhere else. Canada (3), Mexico (3), Japan (3), France (8), Germany (8) and Korea (8) (or there abouts, its our sister company, not the one I work for).

They'll take the taxpayers money and then move their entire operations of producing vehicles to foreign countries. They'll use the same marketing model the Japanese use the world over...produce the vehicles somewhere else than your target market, but assemble some in the target market.

Only Toyota/Honda/Nissan arent getting bailouts from the American taxpayer, which is why I think this entire farce is a crime against America, but no one cares. Short-term idiots and their prognostications about the future.

[baseline bum]

So basically we are bailing out companies that already have their bags packed. We're going to give them $150 Billion so they can employ Jose in Mexico and HaBeeb in India. Or worse, they take their production to China (who also just passed a bailout-stimulus package for their tanking economy).

Ford already has a plant in China. I would much rather let all three go under than give them any help whatsoever, as if they survive, they will all be in China in 20 years anyway. The current corporate culture mirrors the current American culture of being out for self and fuck everyone else. Those jobs are already gone; it's just a matter of when.

[boutons_]

Please tell me again how the financial sector collapse and planetary economic contraction is all ACORN's fault, poor people's fault, F&F's fault? :lol

[DarkReign]

Ford already has a plant in China. I would much rather let all three go under than give them any help whatsoever, as if they survive, they will all be in China in 20 years anyway. The current corporate culture mirrors the current American culture of being out for self and fuck everyone else. Those jobs are already gone; it's just a matter of when.


Bang on analysis. Ford has more than one plant in China, actually. General Motors has a few if not more.

China is a strange place to produce anything though. That could be an entire thread unto itself.

Long and short of it, the Chinese government does not allow importation of cars. The government also chooses an operating partner for you.

Example: GM wants to open a plant in China. Government chooses the site and chooses an "operating partner" for GM. Lets say they chose ChangFeng. GM must build and support the plant at its cost. ChangFeng owns 50% of everything inside the plant and outside without ever having invested a dollar. Fucked up, yeah? It gets worse. Every dealership, every car loan, every car sold, every everything....ChangFeng gets 50% without ever having to actually do anything.

But GM is willing to do this because China has 9 million new drivers a year.

The government and ChangFeng are very plain about the relationship. They tell GM, we are allowing you inside our borders to learn from you, we plan on being your direct competitors in time. They have a government official and a ChangFeng representative in every area of operation (paid for by GM). From the executive board room to the hourly worker seminars.

Oh, and the 50% of everything deal never stops. You start to lose money or feel that you cant sustain the operation any longer, we'll be more than happy to excercise our 50% stake and takeover for you.

Have a nice day.