Obama wants help in auto industry, Bush wants Colombian Free Trade.

[cool hand]

WTF, This country is going to shit and Bush is still trying to help only his friends.......FUCKING ASSHOLE.

[Anti.Hero]

Even Obama said this was not the case.

Either way, Obama can go fuck himself until 1/21/09.

[SnakeBoy]

Obama wants to help the auto union not the auto industry. If he really wanted to help the industry he would be talking about busting the union.

[doobs]

I don't get you, man. Are you a libertarian or not? Do you like or dislike government involvement in the economy? What is it that you want, cool hand?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

The auto makers don't deserve a bailout. They produce a shitty product and they've let the UAW accelerate their labor costs out of control (and that is really the root of their financial problems).

When you factor in pay and benefits, Toyota pays their workers about $45/hr. For GM, it's $80 an hour. They need to bring their labor costs under control, not get a handout from the taxpayers.

Fuck Detroit and the Big 3, they need to get their shit in order on their own. Declare bankruptcy, dissolve the UAW, and the reorganize. That'd solve about 70% of their problems without anyone in this country giving them a dime.

[baseline bum]

When you factor in pay and benefits, Toyota pays their workers about $45/hr. For GM, it's $80 an hour.


source?

[Thunder Dan]

The auto makers don't deserve a bailout. They produce a shitty product and they've let the UAW accelerate their labor costs out of control (and that is really the root of their financial problems).

When you factor in pay and benefits, Toyota pays their workers about $45/hr. For GM, it's $80 an hour. They need to bring their labor costs under control, not get a handout from the taxpayers.

Fuck Detroit and the Big 3, they need to get their shit in order on their own. Declare bankruptcy, dissolve the UAW, and the reorganize. That'd solve about 70% of their problems without anyone in this country giving them a dime.

It's obvious you don't understand where that $80 an hour is going.

The Big 3 have the pensions of people in your community built into the price of their cars. The new UAW will not see those pensions, but just stopping paying those pensions that were grandfathered in is illegal unless they declare bankruptcy. Unlike Toyota and other foreign brands, GM, Ford and Chrysler are giving money to people that buy products or services you sell. You may not think you know someone that is involved with one of these companies, but I would bet anything that you do. Think of the hundreds of thousands of people that depend on those pensions for survival- you can't just abandon them without consequences

[Anti.Hero]

If he wants to help the auto industries, he'd tell the unions to go fuck themselves.

[Anti.Hero]

Obama will continue to strengthen the unions...

Secret ballot...ha!


And industries will continue to dry up...


People will continue to blame repubs/capitalism/whatever and never wise up.


Dependence is a bitch.

[Thunder Dan]

you are all way off on your hatred of unions as they stand today. It is the unions of yesterday that are running these companies to the ground.Most Unions of today are given 401ks like you and I are at the companies we work for- the problem is that the unions of yesterday were given full pensions, so GM and Ford are taking what would be profits, and giving them to people that are earning pensions.

Toyota doesn't have to deal with this which is why they are profitable. Gm and Ford don't stand a chance at being competitive until those pensions die off, or the pensioners accept buyouts.

Is it right that they receive pensions? probably giving the financial landscape back in the 70s-80s when that was the major form of retirement savings (i.e. there wasn't anything). Now, like everyone else, Autoworkers are not seeing that retirement is something people need to take care of on their own. What makes the auto industry stick out is a)they have so many workers, so thus so many people collecting pensions b)they are so big c)their companies and products have been around for over 100 years

[Thunder Dan]

But, unlike the banks- these companies didn't have total control over their demise. The banks offered credit to people that shouldn't be given credit- when housing prices dropped, these banks lost big time.

Now, auto companies in America were given a raw deal by the very country they strongly supported for over 100 years. I'll explain, but first if you are going to say things like "they make shitty cars" or "their cars suck" --save it,those are opinions and this isn't about that. Not to be a jerk but I know much more about this than you do because a) I grew up in a family that owned 3 car dealerships (including a foreign maker) and b) I have written 2 thesis papers in college so I have studied this subject immensely .


So back in the 70's Americans demanded large cars. Ford, GM and Chrysler offered them the best large cars and were thriving. They had a standard model of production in which they would hire Americans and sell those same cars back to Americans. The philosophy was to sell a product the workers that made it could afford to buy and everything was going great. In the late 70's there was a gas crisis and the Detroit auto companies were opened up to the fact that they needed to build smaller, more fuel efficient cars...which since they didn't ever foresee this crisis (nobody did), they were illprpared to switch a company that has been making one type of car for 70 years overnight into making a different one. ***this is where I start to have a problem with things** Japanese companies saw this as a way to gain more marketshare. Toyota at the time was making very cheap vehicles that nobody desired when they first appeared in the USA in the 80's. What they did though was lobby US Congress to quickly pass emission restrictions on automobiles. Yes, you are reading this correctly, a company from JAPAN paid to have laws passed in their favor in AMERICA. Toyota knew that they currently met those restrictions because they were the restrictions Japan placed on them in their own country. They knew the GM and Ford couldn't switch that fast and still put out a quality product (this is why cars of the early 80's all suck). Congress basically turned their back to the fact that GM,Ford and Chrysler were 3 of the top 10 employers in America. By doing this, they allowed Toyota to gain market share, and the American auto companies were left to struggle to catch up while they were paying pensions of hundreds of thousands of American citizens.

Since then, Toyota has become uber profitable (until the last 2 years) because of the marketshare they have gained back in the 80s. They skip out on paying tariffs by building assembly plants that hire the minimum number of employees needed. They don't have to pay the pensions of former workers (because there are not any). They have the best case scenario thanks to our own congress: they can create the same product as the competitors, but make more profit because they skip on paying things that benefit the American economy. They don't have to pay to help out schools. They don't help American families put food on their table. They don't employ hundreds thousands of Americans. They don't support the US Steel industry. They don't support the thousands of US companies that supply the US auto industry. And most importantly, they DO NOT BRING PROFITS TO AMERICA- they take American dollars back with them on a plane or a boat to their home country

Yet nobody at all feels any guilt going out and buying one.


I can shoot down every argument there is as to why foreign cars are better than American cars (keeping luxury brands out)

"They hold their value better" --because American companies offer their cars to fleets so there are more of them in circulation. You rent American cars, and most company cares are American cars. "Value" has nothing at all to do with quality- yet, foreign companies will use that as a claim.

"They are more fuel efficient" -- most people pay $4,000- $5,000 more for a foreign hybrid, than they would for an American fuel efficient car. You could buy a Chevy Malibu for about $5,000 less than a Toyota Prius, but the Prius offers better MPG. Does anyone ever think that $5,000 would give you GAS FOR FREE for over 3 years?!

"Better Quality" ---go hit the door of a toyota or a Honda....that "ting" you hear that sounds like a Pepsi can is that quality. Oh, and American companies have caught up AND surpassed foreign companies in most quality standards

[cool hand]

I don't get you, man. Are you a libertarian or not? Do you like or dislike government involvement in the economy? What is it that you want, cool hand?

ambiguity.

[BradLohaus]

Thunder Dan knows what he's talking about. Also throw in the fact that America's Marshall Plan for Japan was to let them slap large tariffs on American products while America let there's in with low tariffs. Wage differentials between American and Japanese workers during the early days of this were huge. Add that to everything ThunderDan said, and it's no surprise that the car industry is in its current shape. It took a while, but given that the deck was stacked against it, it was inevitable.

Globalization... It's FAAAAAAAANTASTC!:downspin:

[01.20.09]

Even Obama said this was not the case.

Either way, Obama can go fuck himself until 1/21/09.

And you can just plain fuck off.

[spurster]

Those Japanese car companies must have paid off Consumer Reports, too.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

source?

http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/ci_10957440


according to The Wall Street Journal in September of 2006, "on average, GM pays $81.18 an hour in wages and benefits to its U.S. hourly workers." Those increased costs, including the cost of health care, were passed along to consumers, adding $1,600 to the price of every vehicle GM produced. In February 2008, after General Motors offered buyouts to 74,000 employees, the Center for Automotive Research estimated the average wage, including benefits, for current GM workers had dropped to $78.21 an hour. New hires pulled down a paltry $26.65


So the only people who are going hooked up are those who have been there a long time.

Same article:


Contrast this with non-union Toyota, whose total hourly U.S. labor costs, with benefits, are about $48 per hour. Those lower labor costs mean Toyota enjoys a cost advantage over U.S. automakers of about $1,000 per vehicle. Is it any wonder that Toyota is outselling American automakers and from plants that have been built on U.S. soil? According to James Sherk of The Heritage Foundation, Japanese car companies provide their employees with good jobs at good wages: "The typical hourly employee at a Toyota, Honda or Nissan plant in America makes almost $100,000 a year in wages and benefits, before overtime."

ThunderDan - spare me. Again, Toyota's doing it for $40 less an hour when you factor all costs in. They have plants all around the U.S.

Howabout instead of the continued fucking handouts so the Demos lock up the union vote for the next four years we make bad business change their model?

If you use the Toyota baseline of $100K in benefits + salary, do the math on the UAW (and in particular GM folks).

Seriously, are you trying to tell me that some guy who puts together shitty cars deserves six figures worth of salary/benefits? Give me a fucking break.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

The Big 3 have the pensions of people in your community built into the price of their cars. The new UAW will not see those pensions, but just stopping paying those pensions that were grandfathered in is illegal unless they declare bankruptcy. Unlike Toyota and other foreign brands, GM, Ford and Chrysler are giving money to people that buy products or services you sell. You may not think you know someone that is involved with one of these companies, but I would bet anything that you do. Think of the hundreds of thousands of people that depend on those pensions for survival- you can't just abandon them without consequences

Fine, pay the pensions. Make the workers take a pay cut. When their product meets the marketplace expectations and they can compete with Toyota on quality, then they'll see their wages increase.

Yes, it sucks that some people will have their standard of living impacted by this, but why should that burden be placed on the American taxpayer to pay to make sure that doesn't happen?

And where does this stop? Fuck, Amex is asking for 30 billion despite posting dividends of 70 cents a share this quarter, and Paulsen's ready to give it to them. This is such a crock of shit.