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View Full Version : Game Thoughts: Spurs vs. Knicks Nov. 11



timvp
11-12-2008, 01:11 AM
Welcome back, Spurs Basketball. It’s been awhile.

Keyed by their defensive effort, the San Antonio Spurs defeated the New York Knicks in the AT&T Center by a final score of 92-80. The win improves the Spurs record to 2-4 overall and 1-3 at home. With both Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili sidelined, any victory is a big victory.

While the Spurs got some good individual performances, the team defense is what brought home the win. Coming into the game, the Mike D’Antoni coached Knicks were averaging 102.5 points per game. The 80 points allowed by the Spurs not only held New York more than 22 points below their average, it was 18 fewer points than the best defensive effort all year by San Antonio.

Despite the loss, the Knicks look much improved from last season. D’Antoni’s offense fits well with his team’s personnel, with players like Jamal Crawford and Zach Randolph very capable of filling up the nets on any given night. Although the Knicks don’t have any lockdown defenders, that aspect doesn’t really matter with D’Antoni as coach.

For the Spurs, this was a pivotal win and a much needed performance. It may sound overstated but the team needed a W to get off on the right foot as they head into a difficult stretch without two of their three star players. Just as important, their defense showing life should bode well for the upcoming games and gives the Spurs a blueprint for how to win with a depleted roster.

Tim Duncan
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3173.jpg
36 minutes, 23 points, nine rebounds, seven assists, two blocks
11-for-17 from the field, 1-for-3 at the line

Although Tim Duncan has had better stat lines this season, this performance might have been his best so far. The major difference was his defensive intensity, which hadn’t been evident in the first five games. Even though he was constantly matched up against a smaller and quicker player, Duncan gave great effort in his individual defense, rotated very well and protected the rim. Offensively, Duncan was equally as valuable. He quarterbacked the offense from the low post and made great decisions when it came to knowing when to shoot and when to pass. Overall, this was just a vintage masterpiece that illustrates why Duncan is Duncan.
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Roger Mason, Jr.
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3628.jpg
38 minutes, ten points, seven rebounds, four assists, three steals
2-for-10 from the field, 0-for-2 on three-pointers, 6-for-7 at the line

Roger Mason, Jr. didn’t have a very good night shooting the basketball but he did everything else very well. Defensively he did a fine job, especially when it came to making the right rotation. He crashed the boards and helped scoop up a lot of the long misses by the Knicks. On the other end of the court, Mason didn’t get flustered even though he struggled during the first half. In the second half, he scored nine of his ten points and his play at point guard broke open the game in the beginning of the fourth quarter. Mason made a number of nice passes and smart decisions to help his teammates get open shots, even though Duncan was on the bench. It’s good to see that if Mason isn’t knocking down shots, he can still make an impact on a game.
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Ime Udoka
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3501.jpg
20 minutes, five points, six rebounds rebounds, two steals
2-for-10 from the field, 1-for-5 on three-pointers

Starting in place of Bruce Bowen, Ime Udoka got off to an ice cold start. He missed all eight of his field goal attempts in the first half and generally looked overanxious. Perhaps he was thinking too much about his added responsibilities but thankfully he bounced back and played better in the second half. It’ll be interesting to see if he keeps the starting job, although I suspect that Pop hasn’t set anything in stone. With Parker and Ginobili sidelined, inserting Udoka into the starting lineup makes sense because it gives the Spurs another offensive threat and a player that can help rebound.
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George Hill
http://www.iupuijags.com/images/2007/12/12/player_hill.jpg
31 minutes, 12 points, five rebounds
4-for-10 from the field, 1-for-1 on three-pointers, 3-for-4 at the line

Making his first NBA start, George Hill had more ups than downs. While he certainly didn’t play flawlessly, Hill brings an interesting set of skills to the table. Defensively, he can use his long arms to not only disrupt the player he’s guarding but to also play the passing lanes. When there’s a loose ball, Hill turns into a Doberman and seems to react faster than everyone else. He still has a lot of work to do on the defensive end, mostly in terms of knowing when and where to rotate, but he definitely has the physical tools to be a very good defender. On the offensive end against the Knicks, Hill was successful when he attacked. When he played passively he was single-handedly bogging down the offense, but he seemed to learn quickly and stayed aggressive for much of the second half. If he can continue to improve in his starting role, the Spurs may end up okay over the next few weeks.
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Fabricio Oberto
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3988.jpg
25 minutes, six points, nine rebounds, three assists
3-for-5 from the field, 0-for-3 at the line

It was great to see one of the complementary bigmen have a good game. Fabricio Oberto took advantage of the smaller Knicks lineups and used his size and craftiness to be successful. Rebounding was his main strength, as he crashed the boards repeatedly on both ends of the court. He also moved well without the ball on offense and found himself free around the rim. This was also the first game of the season where we saw the trademark chemistry between Duncan and Oberto on the offensive end. The Spurs could really use more games like this from Oberto and if he can continue to produce at this level, there’s no reason to believe he’ll lose his starting job at center.
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Bruce Bowen
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3167.jpg
28 minutes, 13 points, four rebounds
5-for-6 from the field, 3-for-3 on three-pointers

In the last 550 Spurs regular games in which Bruce Bowen was available to play, Bruce Bowen started. Tonight against the Knicks, that streak ended. Bowen came off the bench in a move partly due to injury circumstance and partly due to poor play from Bowen in the team’s first five contests. No matter the reasoning, Bowen responded in a big way on Tuesday night. Coming into the game, he had ten points all season. Against the Knicks, he finished with 13 points and hit five of his six field goal attempts. More importantly, he looked spry defensively and his overall intensity was much higher than what we’ve seen so far in the 2008-09 campaign. Regardless of what role lies ahead for Bowen, it’s at least good to see that he’s capable of producing and having an impact off the bench.
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Michael Finley
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3023.jpg
20 minutes, 14 points, six rebounds, three turnovers
6-for-9 from the field, 2-for-2 on three-pointers

After connecting on only one of his last 22 shots, Michael Finley seemingly entered this game with a different philosophy. He came out driving to the basket on the offensive end and crashing the boards on the defensive end. Finley’s added effort helped him get going and he played a vital role in the win. He took smart shots and didn’t sulk even when he missed a couple. The Spurs will need Finley’s offense to survive this stretch, so it was good to see him find a way to contribute. While we can’t expect this type of performance every night from Finley, hopefully he figured out that being more active overall can help him get into the flow of the game.
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Anthony Tolliver
http://msn.foxsports.com/fe/img/NBA/Headshots/140x170/4371.jpg
20 minutes, five points, four rebounds
2-for-8 from the field, 1-for-6 on three-pointers

In his second NBA game, Anthony Tolliver once again showed some promise. On defense, Tolliver uses his quick feet to hustle around the court and cause as much havoc as possible. He’s not going to be a lockdown defender but his energy is invaluable, especially considering that the other bigman options are rather sedentary. Offensively, his shooting remains the big question mark. If he can hit his three-pointers, he has a career in this league. If he can’t, he won’t be able to survive. He knocked down his open three-pointers in summer league, now he has to translate some of that marksmanship to the big leagues. Against, the Knicks Tolliver had a nice backdoor play that ended in a dunk and he also kept a number of balls alive on the offensive glass. Even though it's early in his career, he seems to have a high basketball IQ and a good feel for the game.
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Jacque Vaughn
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3195.jpg
12 minutes, two rebounds, one assist
0-for-5 from the field

Elevated to the backup point guard position, Vaughn had a very rough outing. He forced a number of shots on the offensive end, even when he wasn’t open. Defensively, he gave good effort but the results were lacking. It’ll be interesting to see if Pop continues to use Vaughn as the backup point guard or if he’ll use Mason at both guard spots. In this one game sample, the latter appears to be the better idea.
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Kurt Thomas
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3012.jpg
nine minutes, four points
1-for-1 from the field, 2-for-2 from the line


Kurt Thomas didn’t play in the first half but played well during his stints in the third and fourth quarters. Though not pulling down a rebound is a bit worrisome, his post defense was improved and he even mixed in a jumper on the offensive end. Thomas still looks like he’s working himself into shape but this outing was a step in the right direction.
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Matt Bonner
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3748.jpg
28 seconds

Matt Bonner played all of 28 seconds. His time came at the end of the game when the victory was already in hand. That said, he almost fouled David Lee on a late basket even though Pop was screaming to not foul. If the whistle would have blown, we might have seen a Pop meltdown of epic proportions.
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Gregg Popovich
http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/topstory/sports/popovich_gregg030428.jpg

You have to give Pop major kudos for his coaching. First of all, it took quite a bit of chutzpah to bench Bowen. Even though Bowen hadn’t played well over the first five games, the Spurs have done a whole lot of winning with him at small forward. I’m glad that Pop decided to start Hill at point guard rather than going with go with Vaughn. Pop’s best bet right now is to give Hill a lot of minutes and a lot of responsibilities and hope that he can grow into the role quickly. Speaking of rookies, Pop going with Tolliver as the first bigman off the bench also seems like a winning move. On the whole, the Spurs needed a win and Pop pushed all the right buttons.
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Offense

Although the offense wasn’t anything to tape and keep in the archives, the Spurs seemed to figure things out as the game went along. They struggled mightily in the first half but then shot very well in the second half. San Antonio finished at 44.4% from the field, while making 8-of-19 three-pointers. The aspect going forward to keep an eye on is the aggressiveness level of the guards. If Hill and Mason are continually looking for their shots, the Spurs should be able to score enough points to keep games close. But if those two are passive, Duncan won’t be able to shoulder the whole burden by himself.

Defense

Finally. After a horrible defensive start to the season, the Spurs were much better on D tonight. It all starts with an improved intensity level and the cleaner rotations. Duncan and Bowen, specifically, looked much more alive on defense than we saw at any point in the first five games. For the game, the Knicks shot only 38% from the field. The Spurs also did a good job of closing out possessions and cleaning up the glass, as they posted a 52-30 rebounding advantage. Granted, the Knicks aren’t exactly a world class barometer, but this is the type of defense the Spurs need to play to win games in the next few weeks.

Drive to Survive

The Spurs don’t have much time to feel happy about themselves. They travel tonight to play the Milwaukee Bucks on the road tomorrow night. Defense, rebounding and offensive aggressiveness will be how the Spurs can sneak out of Milwaukee with a win. Although the Knicks game was a good victory in the Big One Era, the Spurs are far from out of the woods just yet.

Believe.

byrdman31
11-12-2008, 01:15 AM
awesome. great views thanks

angelbelow
11-12-2008, 01:16 AM
great read!

Obstructed_View
11-12-2008, 01:18 AM
Well done. :toast

SequSpur
11-12-2008, 01:18 AM
Excellent. Mason had a different release tonight from what I noticed. I picked up on that quickly.

Vaughn take was right on, I wish I could be so eloquent like you.

Bonner? :lmao

Udoka needs to find his 2007 playoff skills again.

Spurs need another big guy.

lefty
11-12-2008, 01:18 AM
In the last 550 Spurs regular games in which Bruce Bowen was available to play, Bruce Bowen started. Tonight against the Knicks, that streak ended. Bowen came off the bench in a move partly due to injury circumstance and partly due to poor play from Bowen in the team’s first five contests. No matter the reasoning, Bowen responded in a big way on Tuesday night. Coming into the game, he had ten points all season. Against the Knicks, he finished with 13 points and hit five of his six field goal attempts. More importantly, he looked spry defensively and his overall intensity was much higher than what we’ve seen so far in the 2008-09 campaign. Regardless of what role lies ahead for Bowen, it’s at least good to see that he’s capable of producing and having an impact off the bench.

That shows how competitive Bowen is

tp2021
11-12-2008, 01:21 AM
The dreaded Bucks lie ahead.

baseline bum, do you still think we need Starbury's offense more so than defense to win?

remingtonbo2001
11-12-2008, 01:24 AM
Fresh from the oven. Another great read.

duncan228
11-12-2008, 01:27 AM
Thanks for the wrap timvp.

Overall, this was just a vintage masterpiece that illustrates why Duncan is Duncan.

And he showed us again how he makes everyone around him better.
We can ride this storm out and be okay when Parker and Manu get back.

Believe...In Team Duncan.

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x282/duncan228/2008-2009/11-11-08pre2.jpg

lurker23
11-12-2008, 01:33 AM
:tu Good job, timvp.

Here are a couple additions from my end:

George Hill: There are generally two types of mistakes that rookies make: correctable mistakes, largely caused by being inexperienced or not yet fully comfortable in a certain team's system, or mistakes that look uncorrectable, made because the player either doesn't have the skills or the basketball IQ to make it at the highest level. Thankfully, Hill's mistakes largely appear to be from the first category. When Hill didn't make the right pass a couple of times in the Spurs offensive set, it looked to be because he hasn't fully grasped what the Spurs do on the pick-and-roll (for example). When this happened, Pop pulled him out of the game for 30 seconds to tell him how he should handle that play in the future, then promptly put him back in. Spurs fans should be very happy with Hill's play, and the fact that he has the potential to be much better with experience.

Bruce Bowen and Ime Udoka: The first question people always ask about Bruce Bowen is, "Has he lost a step?" For the last few years, the answer to that has been an emphatic "no!" This year, it's hard to tell so far. However, even if he has lost a step it doesn't mean he can't contribute significantly to this team. If age has finally caught up to the age-less wonder, then coming off of the bench is a good spot for him. It allows him to conserve his energy, harass players using his defense in short, effective bursts, and let the opposing team sleep on that deadly corner 3 even more. I fully support starting Ime for an extended period of time, especially if his shot goes down more than it did tonight (which it will). Ime brings a lot of stuff to the table that the Spurs need in the starting lineup while Manu is out. It can be re-evaluated when Ginobili returns, but until then, I believe the situation tonight was the best way to handle it.

Jacque Vaughn and Roger Mason: As far as the PG position behind George Hill goes, I support giving about equal minutes (at PG) to these two players. Vaughn is generally effective as a stop-gap, allowing Hill to rest, so long as he doesn't try to take long jumpshots as he did tonight. Mason, meanwhile, showed a good handle on the quarterback position in the Spurs offense. I'd break it up this way: Hill 30 minutes, Vaughn 9 minutes, Mason 9 minutes (with RMJ getting much more from the SG position, of course).

mVp
11-12-2008, 01:38 AM
Matt Bonner played all of 28 seconds. His time came at the end of the game when the victory was already in hand. That said, he almost fouled David Lee on a late basket even though Pop was screaming to not foul. If the whistle would have blown, we might have seen a Pop meltdown of epic proportions.

LOL

Nice recap, as usual.

YODA
11-12-2008, 02:05 AM
TIMVP...always a great recap, but a few questions.

1. Whats the deal with Kurt Thomas? injured? old? jsut playing bad? Think about it, tollliver who was out a few games comes in ahead of him and bonner. What gives??

2. I kinda think benching Bowen might have lit a fire under his but. I kinda like to see a little more scoring threats out there. Bowen beem passing up alot of opportunites to shoot and tonight he didnt. Was the GG due to the fire or just happpened?


3. Id like to get more input on tolliver. I didnt see whole game, but from what I saw, he hustles all the time and not scared to get physical.

4. LAstly, What rumors have u heard about spurs going after a big man if any at all? FACT or rumor?

You write what I think most times, but put it in words all can understand.

Manufan909
11-12-2008, 02:06 AM
Hey timvp, what do you think about Toll playing in the paint a bit more? I bet he would be more comfortable mixing it up closer to the rim. And I have to disagree about him needing to make 3's to be in the NBA, his all-around game is stellar, probably only second to Tim in the bigman rotation right now. I'd like to see what he has in his arsenal, besides dunks and treys.glad

Also, Hill is a godly defensive player, I love his energy, and length, which enables him to rebound, defend, and get steals more than any other current Spurs guard.

And I'm glad Ime and Mason proved they can both contribute even if they have an offnight offfensively.

Cloud786
11-12-2008, 02:18 AM
Hill's rebounding is absolutely sick. I love it!

Obstructed_View
11-12-2008, 02:37 AM
Hill's rebounding is absolutely sick. I love it!

I liked the steal at the end of the game, too. He had a block against Chalmers that was noteworthy. The best arms since Dave.

objective
11-12-2008, 02:40 AM
a couple more things re: Hill

1. I'd like to see the Spurs put in some lobs for Hill alley-oop dunks. At times during the past few games I've seen the openings either off cutting from Duncan or where he would have been open coming in from the corner. Tonight a lob from Duncan wasn't really open because Robinson kept on Hill but it's been there other nights.

2. In the postgame interview on FSN, Hill claimed that when he first saw Pop telling him to push the ball with the arm windmilling motion he was confused thinking it was the signal for a set play instead of pushing the ball. I couldn't tell if Hill was joking or not. If not, just shows how much better he can get once he learns the ins and outs if he was able to produce tonight still being as green as he is.

HarlemHeat37
11-12-2008, 02:41 AM
I think Kurt Thomas looked solid tonight..much more active defending in the post and moving around offensively..

Hill's only defensive flaws so far has been missing some rotations..once he gets used to our system, watch out..he's going to be a SCARY defender IMO..he's already been great at defending his own man..the ability is there..he just needs to rotate better..he also needs to follow his man for rebounding, because Nate Robinson got a few offensive boards where George should have been there..

Mason's shot looked off on a few attempts..his form wasn't there on a few..might be thinking about it too much with the added pressure and bigger role he's going to have in the next few weeks..

Tolliver can be a very solid contributor if he could actually make some shots..his defense isn't anything great, but he moves around much better than any of our other big men..he went after rebounds with intensity and plays with a lot of energy..NEEDS TO MAKE SOME SHOTS THOUGH..

my belief in this team lies with the fact that we have the best big man on the planet and the best coach in the NBA..2 legends..

Obstructed_View
11-12-2008, 02:46 AM
Mason's shot looked off on a few attempts..his form wasn't there on a few..might be thinking about it too much with the added pressure and bigger role he's going to have in the next few weeks.

When Mason's shot isn't going down for him, he needs to go back to that 20 footer from above the key that's been money for him. He hit one with about a minute to go in the third and it just seemed to switch him on for the rest of the game. He only made one other basket but he started doing damage from that point on.

HarlemHeat37
11-12-2008, 02:49 AM
agreed..I don't worry so much about Mason though, he's a streak shooter..he just needs to make 2 or 3 and he'll be fine the rest of the way..I just like seeing that he can contribute in other ways..I didn't like how he was passing up some shots though..2 of the shots he passed up turned into bad turnovers..

Obstructed_View
11-12-2008, 02:54 AM
Yeah, he really struggled until he made that jumper. If he doesn't make that shot, I don't know if he makes the nice assist to Bowen at the end of the quarter. His defense was so good that he didn't have to score a load of points, which could be a really good sign going forward as he gets more and more comfortable with his role.

milkyway21
11-12-2008, 02:56 AM
Matt Bonner played all of 28 seconds. His time came at the end of the game when the victory was already in hand. That said, he almost fouled David Lee on a late basket even though Pop was screaming to not foul. If the whistle would have blown, we might have seen a Pop meltdown of epic proportions.
:lol

I still want Bonner to work harder and improve his game ..

mattyc
11-12-2008, 03:01 AM
Good to see Hill go alright and settle a bit. The next few games should do him wonders.

Go Udoka.

Obstructed_View
11-12-2008, 03:01 AM
:lol

I still want Bonner to work harder and improve his game ..

So do I, but he came really close to fucking up the short amount of time he was given. He might not even get Copa time for the next couple of games.

Tully365
11-12-2008, 03:05 AM
Mason's game tonight reminded me of some of Hill's games this summer-- even with his shot not going down, he found ways to contribute: tonight Mason was 6-7 from the FT line, had 7 rebounds, 4 assists, and 3 steals. He also led the team in +/- with a +13. If in the future, Hill, Mason (or Manu), and Bowen are coming off the bench, the Spurs will have a much improved 2nd squad over last year, especially defensively.

HarlemHeat37
11-12-2008, 03:19 AM
there's a HUGE difference between Tolliver and Bonner..

Bonner is actually a better shooter and they aren't much different defensively IMO..

Tolliver moves better and is a better rebounder, but that's not the difference..AT has a lot of balls, and he has no conscience..he'll take any shot, he'll go after any rebound, he plays with confidence..Bonner has no confidence and fears Popovich after every play..if Bonner had Tolliver's balls, he would be a serious asset to this team..it's too bad it's probably too late for him to develop that attitude..

timvp
11-12-2008, 03:27 AM
Pop pulled him out of the game for 30 seconds to tell him how he should handle that play in the future, then promptly put him back in. Spurs fans should be very happy with Hill's play, and the fact that he has the potential to be much better with experience.Yeah, I liked how Hill handled that situation. Pop pulled him out early in the third, got on him a little bit and then put him back in the game. Instead of playing scared or trying to not make mistakes, he responded by scoring seven points in the next one and a half minutes.

Pop can be extremely hard on point guards so if Hill responds positively to Pop, that'd be an extremely good thing to see going forward.

Good takes overall, lurker23.


1. Whats the deal with Kurt Thomas? injured? old? jsut playing bad? Think about it, tollliver who was out a few games comes in ahead of him and bonner. What gives??It's tough to tell. I'm hoping it's injury but it could simply be old age. He's exactly the age where Horry started breaking down, so that could really be overlooked. Thankfully KT finally had a halfway decent game so maybe there's a little bit left in the tank.


2. I kinda think benching Bowen might have lit a fire under his but. I kinda like to see a little more scoring threats out there. Bowen beem passing up alot of opportunites to shoot and tonight he didnt. Was the GG due to the fire or just happpened?That's a good question and one I was asking myself during the game. I came to the conclusion that the benching had to have some sort of an affect on Bowen. He seemed to be going through the motions to start the season but tonight he upped his intensity and for the first time this season he was one of the hardest working players on the floor.

I don't think Bowen was intentionally dogging it to start the season but age combined with knowing it's a long regular season seemed to take away some of his fire. It was good to see a bit of that fire back tonight.


3. Id like to get more input on tolliver. I didnt see whole game, but from what I saw, he hustles all the time and not scared to get physical.He's a unique player. He plays with a lot of energy but it doesn't seem to be reckless energy. Tolliver knows what he's doing on both ends.

Offensively, he looks like he's a good passer for his size, good at setting screens, good at moving without the ball and he's athletic enough to finish above the rim. But that said, his bread and butter is his three-point shot. He has struggled to make the threes in preseason and now into the regular season. Whether or not he's a longterm fit will depend on whether or not he becomes a good enough shooter.

On defense, he hustles and is quick enough to help out on the perimeter. He might be a player you can put on David West or Dirk Nowitzki ... we'll have to see how that plays out. I also want to see if he can guard bigger post players because that is something he has struggled with in the past.


4. LAstly, What rumors have u heard about spurs going after a big man if any at all? FACT or rumor?I'm sure they will consider McDyess and make a pitch. As far as trades for a bigman, I think they'll wait closer to the trade deadline. The Spurs need to figure out if Tolliver is actually a rotational big, if Mahinmi can help this year and if Oberto and/or Thomas can turn back the clock. If Tolliver fails, I'm guessing Bonner will be given his last shot. If Tolliver doesn't fail, Bonner has already seen his last shot.


Hey timvp, what do you think about Toll playing in the paint a bit more? I bet he would be more comfortable mixing it up closer to the rim.He doesn't really have the size to be a post player in the NBA. Even in college, he did most of his damage from about eight to 15 feet.

Usually smaller bigmen make up for their lack of size by being either extremely strong or very athletic. I wouldn't classify Tolliver as either right now. Perhaps that could be developed but it's not very likely.


And I have to disagree about him needing to make 3's to be in the NBA, his all-around game is stellar, probably only second to Tim in the bigman rotation right now. While I agree he has a surprisingly well rounded game, I do believe he has to hit that three-point shot to make it in the NBA. Like I said previously, he doesn't really have the tools to be an interior bigman. His ability to hit the three is what got him his contract with the Spurs and it'll be what determines his future, IMO.


I'd like to see the Spurs put in some lobs for Hill alley-oop dunks. At times during the past few games I've seen the openings either off cutting from Duncan or where he would have been open coming in from the corner. Tonight a lob from Duncan wasn't really open because Robinson kept on Hill but it's been there other nights. On a related note, I'd like to see Hill go up with more power when he's near the rim. I've seen tapes of him in college finish with thunderous dunks. So far with the Spurs, it seems like he's going the Tony Parker route of using body contortions and angle shots off the glass. He has the size, athleticism and speed to just go up and try to finish with authority.

Perhaps when Manu is healthy, that is something Hill can take from Manu's game. If Hill can take away his flip shots around the basket and replace with power, he could be a pretty damn good player on offense without needing much more grooming.

milkyway21
11-12-2008, 03:49 AM
So do I, but he came really close to fucking up the short amount of time he was given. He might not even get Copa time for the next couple of games.
he sometimes reminds me of Hedo. look at how he's improved his game & making name in the NBA and won an award..
if only he could be just 75% of that..

this is the time to prove himself. Ian Mahinmi might be with the team sooner than we expected and he'll end up DNP or..

#2!
11-12-2008, 04:12 AM
Hill is a godly defensive player, I love his energy, and length, which enables him to rebound, defend, and get steals more than any other current Spurs guard.

Don't forget his blocking abilities. The stat sheet gave him one, but he had another that was called as a foul, but looked pretty clean to me.(against Robinson and Chandler i think)

Also, I love the versatility of this team when all of our pieces are healthy, especially when you realize how many combinations of great defenders you can come up with. Personally i think I'm most excited to see Hill and Manu playing the passing lanes on defense together, and having each other, as well as players like Tolliver and Ian, to take advantage on fast breaks. We could really have a team that Pop could do A LOT of things with.

johnnyblues
11-12-2008, 04:27 AM
tim, what are your thoughts on Farmer not included in the rotation last night? Even after Tolliver's bad shooting %?

AnotherArgie
11-12-2008, 04:50 AM
Millsap is as small as Tolliver, and only a little bit heavier. With AT's attitude I think (hope) he'll be able to have a career in the NBA.

benefactor
11-12-2008, 06:37 AM
Man it is good to see Spurs basketball again. After 5 games of a headless chicken routine they came out and won in the way that we have won 4 rings...on the defensive end.

I really like the mix of young players we have right now and the only hinderance they are faced with now is time. Almost all the plays where mistakes were made can be chalked up to inexperience. Mason, Hill and Tolliver are all great additions to this team and all three bring things to the table we have been needing. It was good to see Finley and Bowen step up as well and help shoulder some of the load. We will surely need more consistent play out of both of them to win the games we are supposed to win during this stretch.

Regardless of who we play in these first 25 games or so, every win is a good win, because they are probably some of the most important regular season wins so far in the Duncan era.

mrspurs
11-12-2008, 07:13 AM
Great read. And a win is a win. I had no clue the Knicks were so small. I knew they had Zach but after that I thought they had someone besides David Lee. No wonder our bigs had a field day out there. It would be nice to play the Knicks a few more times while manu and tony are out. I didnt get to watch most of the game. I didnt get there till halftime. But the first thing I noticed was how small the Knicks were. The second thing I noticed was we were taking advantage of it as well.

tav1
11-12-2008, 08:05 AM
On a related note, I'd like to see Hill go up with more power when he's near the rim. I've seen tapes of him in college finish with thunderous dunks. So far with the Spurs, it seems like he's going the Tony Parker route of using body contortions and angle shots off the glass. He has the size, athleticism and speed to just go up and try to finish with authority.

Perhaps when Manu is healthy, that is something Hill can take from Manu's game. If Hill can take away his flip shots around the basket and replace with power, he could be a pretty damn good player on offense without needing much more grooming.

I appreciate the Game Thoughts and lurker23 comments. Intelligent discussion like this is what makes this board so unique and such a treat.

Piggy-backing on your Hill comment, I often think the same thing about Ian Mahinmi. Every time I've watched him play I've thought he could and should dunk more often. He has a baseline spin move that he likes to finish with a reverser finesse lay up, using the rim as a shield. He should just dunk that sort of stuff. I too was struck with the same sentiment while watching Hill last night--finish with authority. If Hill and Mahinmi can be coached this way, it would add a new dynamic to the offense.

Someone made a smart suggestion above. They said that the Spurs would be wise to draw up a play or two for Hill that ended in an alley-oop. Great idea from a coaching standpoint too. In other words, the staff says to Hill, "This is how we want you finishing plays."

RuffnReadyOzStyle
11-12-2008, 08:08 AM
Thanks for the excellent rundown as usual, LJ. :tu

Pre-season we both talked a lot about our hopes for Mason and he is exceeding them. Dude can play. Shooter, slasher, good decision-maker, committed defender - consummate Spur. Hill looks like a player too. Now we just need Mahinmi to show something, to weather the next month without too much damage, and who knows, maybe it's a late-run year? Either way it's great to see the youth shining through. :)

Slippy
11-12-2008, 08:23 AM
Fabricio Oberto
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/ba...ayers/3988.jpg
25 minutes, six points, nine rebounds, three assists
3-for-5 from the field, 0-for-3 at the line

He also moved well without the ball on offense and found himself free around the rim. This was also the first game of the season where we saw the trademark chemistry between Duncan and Oberto on the offensive end. The Spurs could really use more games like this from Oberto and if he can continue to produce at this level, there’s no reason to believe he’ll lose his starting job at center.


The interaction between Timmy and Oberto was back in vogue last night. Just adds another dynamic to the spurs offense when Oberto presents himself down low. Not only does he give opposing defenses some-one else to worry about, he also puts himself in the best positions to score with a close in lay-up.

de Soto
11-12-2008, 08:41 AM
The Spurs won because they played the Knicks. The only reason IMO.

polandprzem
11-12-2008, 08:54 AM
I don't know if to be happy about that game or not.

spurs looked more like spurs this game mainly because Pop do not want to change nothing in his coaching. Whoever he have on the court he molds him into the system and the player must respond with his personal abilieties, but do what the system says.

We could see it in taking Hill out of the game for a few seconds just tri tell him what to do next time. It reminded me Tony Parker few years back.
Also Tim was where he was almost all his career and swings doing what the swings were doing when Tim is in his position. All those cuts to the basket in the baseline ... those Tim passes when he was doubled which lead to an open shooter on a three. Knicks were quick t rotate the first man so the spurs used an extra pass.
In one of those Bowen executed and looked into Knicks bench to gave them a look I'm here, I'm still here

Bowen responded to the situation - he was even trying drive to the basket - amazing.

All in all we saw more agression and spurs looked like they would be in some kind of a mission. We are not seeing sleepwalking spurs team. We can't afford that now. Finley had a good game and he even was able to dun the ball! driving to the basket.
We need more guys who can slash to the basket.

As of the bigman - Oberto showed why he is in the S5, his IQ is great in a way where to be and what to do. :tu
Tolliver - he tried to be everywhere and he looked like he was not a part of a system. He created havoc. Good that he did not disruped the offense. he was very helpfull in that matter in a way that the spurs were not as predictable which could kill them.

I'm waiting for that left head of Hill to be 100%

1Parker1
11-12-2008, 09:00 AM
Good to know the Spurs can still count on good ol Mike D'Antoni to help them get some much needed W's. :lol

Bender
11-12-2008, 09:10 AM
I knew bowen didn't start last night, but it didn't click until this morning that it was his first non-start as a Spur.

I liked mason running point more than hill, but I know hill is still learning.

That Mason/Tolliver backdoor was beautiful.

Finley must have had a bowl of Wheaties before the game...

At the very end when Bonner was all over Lee pointlessly, I thought the refs just decided to forget about the whistle...

The Truth #6
11-12-2008, 09:16 AM
What I noticed with Tolliver, and what puts him miles ahead of Bonner, is that he seems to at least get a basic if not strong grasp of the defensive system.

Tolliver often helps on the pick and roll at the top and then crashes back into the lane to recover. Bonner never seemed to have gotten that part down in the same way.

I'm not saying Tolliver is a great player but as other players have commented (DeMarr Johnson) you don't have to be the best defender to succeed in Pop's system. You just have to be at the right place at the right time and Tolliver has shown he can do that both physically and mentally.

Bonner's mistakes most often are on defense. They both usually throw up bricks but at least Tolliver can continue to contribute. Bonner exists with the success or failure of his shot and when it doesn't go down he seems even more without a purpose.

On another note, I wanted to see Farmer get a chance but Finley was playing well for his role and I don't think Farmer could have done better, especially when Finley took it to the basket and posted up a few times. It feels odd to give Finley positive comments but last night he did deserve it.

tav1
11-12-2008, 09:30 AM
What I noticed with Tolliver, and what puts him miles ahead of Bonner, is that he seems to at least get a basic if not strong grasp of the defensive system.

Tolliver often helps on the pick and roll at the top and then crashes back into the lane to recover. Bonner never seemed to have gotten that part down in the same way.

I'm not saying Tolliver is a great player but as other players have commented (DeMarr Johnson) you don't have to be the best defender to succeed in Pop's system. You just have to be at the right place at the right time and Tolliver has shown he can do that both physically and mentally.

Bonner's mistakes most often are on defense. They both usually throw up bricks but at least Tolliver can continue to contribute. Bonner exists with the success or failure of his shot and when it doesn't go down he seems even more without a purpose.

On another note, I wanted to see Farmer get a chance but Finley was playing well for his role and I don't think Farmer could have done better, especially when Finley took it to the basket and posted up a few times. It feels odd to give Finley positive comments but last night he did deserve it.

Tolliver's aggressive show on the screen and roll was great to see. Sometimes he was almost too aggressive, but did a good job recovering and seems to have a good sense of the court.

Too bad for him, despite an inexplicable rep, I don't think he can shoot.

George Gervin's Afro
11-12-2008, 09:32 AM
We finally won a home game! Yeah baby!

MoSpur
11-12-2008, 09:56 AM
I give major props to Finley for stepping up and Bruce Bowen as well.

Manu-of-steel
11-12-2008, 10:18 AM
thanx for the great post timvp. the game showed some progress in the way hill and tolliver played. i hope mahinmi can contribute to the team once he returns. we'll need his height to guard bigs like bynum and gasol, amare, et al. if his defense provews adequate, plus the return of manu and tony, i'm excited about our chances this season. go spurs go!

The Truth #6
11-12-2008, 10:30 AM
Tolliver's aggressive show on the screen and roll was great to see. Sometimes he was almost too aggressive, but did a good job recovering and seems to have a good sense of the court.

Too bad for him, despite an inexplicable rep, I don't think he can shoot.

Sasha "the Machine" supposedly hit everything in practice for a full year before it finally translated onto the court. I suppose it's possible he just needs to get comfortable, though in some ways he seems too comfortable with his hair trigger. For some reason, Pop must give bench players the green light to just let it rip. Beno, Bonner, and Tolliver all had/have this trait, and all with little success.

I wonder sometimes if Pop is correct to let his players just shoot if they're open and not worry about the results, or if offense is more of a mystery to him and he prefers to focus on coaching defense. I realize that our offense has become much more complicated over the years but I never get the same sense of players struggling to grasp the System when it comes to offense as it does to defense. I realize that jump shooting is a huge part of offense for all teams, but it always seems to be a huge issue with us over the years. I'm sure I'm wrong on this but that's what it seems at times.

timaios
11-12-2008, 11:03 AM
I think Mason was a little lost with his shot because Tony was not in the game.
He needs to adapt to that new situation.

George Hill was great but he's not yet a point guard (1 assist). It will take time... and he has the time (the positive thing about Tony and Manu injuries).
About Hill not dunking, remember : his left thumb is injured. I don't think Pop wants to watch the kid dunk now. Maybe in 3 or 4 games.

I like the energy of Tolliver but why only 3-pointers ??? Why no 15 or 17ft ?

Matt Bonner 13s vs Miami...
Matt Bonner 28s vs New York...
Matt is wasting his career on the Spurs, he needs to go... For him and for the Spurs ! He could be a very good player in another system.

Great awakening of the old guys !
With Michael Finley : all is good or all is bad. Tonight he was really good.
Bruce Bowen with great efforts and scoring.
Oberto, Thomas...
Old cars need to warm up. :p:

And Tim is definitely a great player, he is doing everything on the court.

Good focus of the team, good defense, good game.

Brazil
11-12-2008, 11:20 AM
Great read as usual, thanks timvp I didn't see the second half so it was good to have your feedback.

Of what I've seen of the first half my highlights are :
- Bonner 0 MIN ! I hope he will continue like that on the bench
- I've liked the Oberto performance : good effort overall, good selection of shots and almost 10 reb, the performance of Tim is also linked to the good support he received from Oberto
- To win we need a very good Bowen on the defensive side, tonight cherry on the cake he has helped the offense
- Mason can help the team even with a very poor FG%
- We have also won because Tim has compensated the TP lack of assits
- and finally props to Hill for the good job

Fingaroll44
11-12-2008, 11:33 AM
I The best arms since Dave.

Hell yea, i noticed that when he was @ the FT line. Not only are his arms long and strong his shoulders are unusually WIDE. That should serve him well when taking bumps in traffic and trying to get a shot off.

Fingaroll44
11-12-2008, 11:38 AM
I saw the post-game interview w/ Hill too. I dont think he was joking when he said he was trying to think which play is the one where Pop makes the windmill motion w/ his arm. As we all know its not an actual play but Pop's sign language for push the ball upcourt aggressively.

I think he was sincerely confused and thought to himself, "which play is that?". He said himself he is still easing his way into everything. We haven't seen the best of him yet because he is still thinking too much on the court. When he just starts playing freely i believe it will be a joy to watch.

Ed Helicopter Jones
11-12-2008, 11:45 AM
Nice analysis! :tu



I was happy the Spurs won. I know I said I thought the Spurs would go something like 6-9 without Parker and Ginobili...but in reality I wasn't sure when I'd see the next Spurs win. This game last night gave me hope, however, that the crew we have can hold down the fort until the big 2 return.

We're such a work in process right now that I'm guessing by May this team will have a totally different dynamic to it than it did to open the season. If the Spurs can pull this season together and finish strong it will be a true testament to Pop's coaching ability.

Fingaroll44
11-12-2008, 11:45 AM
So do I, but he came really close to fucking up the short amount of time he was given.

LOL..I know. We were playing good defense, in comes Bonner and they get a layup right away. I was like wow.

CubanMustGo
11-12-2008, 11:46 AM
Great take as always, timvp. Thanks.

That said, we need a better picture of coach than "Pop Smirks". If you want to keep the unbearded look, here's one that seems appropriate.

http://www.nba.com/media/finals2007/popovich_300_070613.jpg

polandprzem
11-12-2008, 11:47 AM
http://www.hakubi.us/lakers/hack-a-shaq/popovich

polandprzem
11-12-2008, 11:48 AM
http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2008/writers/ian_thomsen/02/12/spurs.popovich/p1.pop.jpg

Fingaroll44
11-12-2008, 11:54 AM
Great read. And a win is a win. I had no clue the Knicks were so small. I knew they had Zach but after that I thought they had someone besides David Lee. No wonder our bigs had a field day out there. It would be nice to play the Knicks a few more times while manu and tony are out. I didnt get to watch most of the game. I didnt get there till halftime. But the first thing I noticed was how small the Knicks were. The second thing I noticed was we were taking advantage of it as well.

Yea we were killing them in the post. Even Finley got in on the act and posted up his guy w/ a jump hook.

Spurs Brazil
11-12-2008, 02:22 PM
Great read timvp

I hope Pop goes with Mason as a backup PG

JV is playing terrible

Obstructed_View
11-12-2008, 03:08 PM
LOL..I know. We were playing good defense, in comes Bonner and they get a layup right away. I was like wow.

Oberto tried pretty hard to make the game interesting in the last couple of minutes; I think he left for the locker room a little too soon.