Religion: Yes? No? Why?

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

1. What do you believe?
2. Why do you believe it?

Let me say up front that I'm not looking to get into a debate on the existence or lack thereof of God/Jeusu/Allah/Whatever. I don't care about dueling Bible verses. I'm not seeking to question anyone's faith, debate their personal experiences, etc. I can't speak for others that might post in this thread, but I sincerely have no intent to challenge anyone's faith or lack of faith.

Since joining this board it's become obvious that there are very distinct camps on religion and faith. As someone who feels personally ambiguous on the topic, I'm always curious about why people with strong feelings one way or the other have those feelings and what happened to inspire them.

For those that don't mind sharing, I'd like to know if you believe in God, what brought you to this position? Family? A close friend? A personal moment where you felt the touch of a higher power? Some other experience?

Likewise, for those who don't believe, what has brought you to that camp? Is there anything that might change your position? How sure are you?

Again, I'm not looking to argue issues of faith. I'm just interested as to what has motivated and generated the faith of those in this particular message board community.

I personally do not have any concrete faith. I don't subscribe to any established dogma. My beliefs are derived from what makes sense to me. There have most certainly been times in my life that I have felt the sense of something greater, but I cannot say with certainty that it was a "burning bush" moment that led me to embrace one faith over the others, or to believe 100% that it wasn't all just imagination.

As such, I believe that my purpose/destiny/whatever is to be skeptical, but open to possibility until something happens otherwise to convince me. I feel a personal responsibility to be fair and charitable to others, but I don't necessarily believe that is the pull of an immortal soul over the lessons gathered from social interactions with those around me. I am, of course grateful for the ability to love others in my life and for the opportunity to be loved, but I'm not entirely certain where that sense of thankfulness for my good fortune is aimed. Likewise, when I've experienced tragedy I've felt a sense of resentment, but I'm not certain where that was aimed either.

I've encountered many people of faith, indeed they surround me in everyday life, but none of them have ever shared with me a belief or experience that felt at home in my head.

[baseline bum]

The lack of any kind of evidence for the existence of a god is the main thing that pushes me to atheism. The idea of the Christian god who watches our every move and listens to our every thought is craziness to me. The arrogance of man to claim we are formed in god's image is baffling, and it's far more likely that god has been created in man's image by our cultures. I find it extremely arrogant when Christians want to take credit for the system of morals that humans are born with, while ignoring the evidence that it comes from natural selection. Faith is in complete opposition to rational thought. "Just trust me, I'm right" is something no one in their right minds would believe from a used car salesman, but everyone's quick to suspend the disbelief for the guy in the collar who asks 10% of your income every Sunday when he says it. The idea of the soul, spirits, and the supernatural is also ridiculous to me, as any kind of information needs some physical manifestation. For me to believe in god, I would have to see it. To believe in a theistic god like the Christians, Jews, and Muslims do, I would have to see the god(s) perform an unquestioned miracle. Nothing else would do, with the ugly history religion has of exploiting and killing people. As for my certainty, I think the existence of god is pretty improbable. Maybe along the lines of my atheism with respect to Bertrand Russell's hypothetical teapot.

[Duff McCartney]

I guess I could call myself a believing non-believer. I would considering myself if this was the Divine Comedy and we were in hell, to fall somewhere in the first outer circle where the virtuous pagans live. I may never accept any religion but I still live my life with truth, peace, love, and reason like every religious doctrine says to.

I personally don't subscribe to any religion but I do find them to be fascinating as evidenced by my quotes in my signature. In fact my second signature is an example of why I know why religion has such a profound and fascinating effect on people.

I think if I was a religious person I could NEVER follow one doctrine or one religion. To me if there is a God, then he/she does not just appear to one group of people or in one way. He/she appears in many different ways to many different people and in my view all religions are correct. All religions at their core preach about love and peace of God, and that to me makes every religion genuine and true.

[DarrinS]

Believe in a creator (how could you not?), but don't believe in organized religion.

[Findog]

The Flying Spaghetti monster will rise again on the third day.

[CuckingFunt]

To start off with the meat and potatoes of the question, I am an atheist. Despite a strong affinity towards spirituality, I'm ultimately too skeptical and too science based to be anything but.

That being said, while I despise fundamentalism (at any level), I actually really like religion. I find it fascinating, and always have. If you look at all religions, from the "big three," to Native American/Greco-Roman multi-god religions, to tiny little tribal religions, etc., you'll see a common thread of a prehistoric peoples trying to make sense of a world whose various systems and relationships far exceed their comprehension. There's a sense of mystery there that I like. That very primitive naivety is something that, sappy as it may sound, I find quite beautiful.

We are no longer those primitive people, though, and that's where the disconnect begins for me. Science has explained a lot of this planet's complicated systems, and I'm in no hurry to discover the answers that have yet to be found -- I don't need that sense of completion. I'm okay with the idea that there are things I don't yet know and am, perhaps, not meant to know during my lifetime (the great afterlife question, for example). Furthermore, while I do consider myself to be spiritual, I've never been okay with the idea of picking one religion to believe in and excluding all others. Perhaps this would be different if I'd been raised in the church, but I wasn't. My parents specifically raised me with the intention of letting me make up my mind when the time was right. At age 30, however, the idea of letting my faith be determined by conscious choice seems silly to me -- I can't help but feeling that if one specific religion was meant for me, the faith would come naturally. The belief would be automatic and unavoidable. At this point, it hasn't been.

Ultimately, I pick and choose bits and pieces of various religions to adhere to, but I do so without calling those choices a belief. And I tend to do it situationally. For example, while I don't believe in heaven, I know that my grandmother did. So, when she passed, it gave/gives me comfort to imagine that she was right and that's where she is. But I don't literally believe it. Instead, I recognize that it is a coping device. Aditionally, I like the eastern idea of karma, so I use it as motivation to be a better person. Emphasis: I like the idea, I don't necessarily believe it. Same with the idea of reincarnation. I don't necesssarily believe that we come back over and over in different forms, but I like the idea of continued (endless?) learning and growth. I don't believe in prayer, or praying to a specific deity, but I like the idea of power in positive thought. And so on.

[balli]

After a lifetime of studying theology, agnosticism is the only religious theory that I can honestly say I subscribe to. I'm working on forming a very existential and philosophical view of Christianity, but wrestling with God can really be a bitch of a time.

If by odd chance anybody wants to spend hours and hours of their lives buffing up on Dostoevsky's Christianity, this link has a series of downloadable UC Berkeley lectures on The Brothers Karamazov. They're pretty heady, but fuck, life's good when you're learning.

http://webcast.berkeley.edu/course_details.php?seriesid=1906978306

[CuckingFunt]

NOTHING IS GREATER THAN MAN.

Ghey.

[LnGrrrR]

1. What do you believe?
2. Why do you believe it?


1) Nothing.
2) Why don't I believe in anything? Lack of proof, mainly. Lack of motivation as well.

I've already said what would convince me in another thread, but I'll share again. Jesus coming down in the middle of Times Square, being recorded by multiple different witnesses in a variety of formats, performing some miracles (breaking the laws of physics would be good ones), and then coming back to do it two or three more times.

I find that my proof for outrageous claims is itself outrageous.

[LnGrrrR]

Believe in a creator (how could you not?), but don't believe in organized religion.

Easy. The same way you don't believe in Santa.

[SnakeBoy]

morals that humans are born with

And what morals would those be?

[dg7md]

I think babies are born knowing how to walk, too!

[baseline bum]

And what morals would those be?

For example, working together in groups instead of killing each other. If you want to argue that comes from religion, then please show me the bibles that chimps use.

[kwhitegocubs]

I grew up in an astonishingly Catholic household (at least when with my father). He still has approximately 5 tall bookcases that espouse various aspects of Catholic dogma, Church history, apologetics, rebuttals to use against persons of other religions or Christian sects in order to convert them, etc...

So, as you can guess, I was once a very devout Catholic. I was the kid who excelled in CCD (Sunday School) and would answer other kids questions with robust and rigid theology. My morality WAS The Church's morality. My logic WAS The Church's logic.

As I got older and my ability to consider evil all those whom my Church disagreed with waned, I was forced to question the merits of the Church's teaching. Gay people weren't evil, Atheists and Agnostics weren't unfettered epicurean perverts, and so on.

But I was unable to give up my religion, but instead gradually retreated from it. When I was in Yellowstone National Park, I was a youth minister for the non-denominational ACMNP (A Christian Ministry in the National Parks). I and several other persons my age would hold small church services at various ampitheatres and gathering places around the park.

I kept shedding layer after layer of dogma and teaching - seeing that its self-evident truth was increasingly not so. Pretty soon I was at the old Unitarian Universalist level, then Deism.

Now, I would pretty much consider myself a Hard Determinist Agnostic. I believe in the POSSIBILITY of prime-mover Deism, but likely nothing else.

That being said, I have always been very interested in ghost hunting and the paranormal (and continue to be), simply because it would give me some sort of shapeless hope of an afterlife. I love living to the extremity of my (poetically speaking) soul, and I am afraid of death to an astonishing degree.

I want to believe, but I cannot at this point.

[SnakeBoy]

Working together in groups is a moral?

Chimps are highly territorial. The males form groups to go kill neighboring groups. Is that a moral?

[baseline bum]

Working together in groups is a moral?

Chimps are highly territorial. The males form groups to go kill neighboring groups. Is that a moral?

Sounds like maybe they have found religion then.

[SnakeBoy]

Are solitary animals immoral?

Seriously, is anything moral or immoral from an athiest perspective?

[CuckingFunt]

Seriously, is anything moral or immoral from an athiest perspective?

Of course.

[lefty]

I don't believe in Bonner

[beefanus]

my queston is how can u actually say ur an athiest r u not blind to the fact the theory of evolusion contridicts the laws of the universe that have already been established and acredited (i can spell worth shit sorry)

[kwhitegocubs]

Please explain, O wise Beefanus! (Your name....oy)

[baseline bum]

my queston is how can u actually say ur an athiest r u not blind to the fact the theory of evolusion contridicts the laws of the universe that have already been established and acredited (i can spell worth shit sorry)

u cant argue worth shit either

[kwhitegocubs]

At least he said, "I CAN spell worth shit". He gives himself the benefit of the doubt and elevates his spelling to the value of manure.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

my queston is how can u actually say ur an athiest r u not blind to the fact the theory of evolusion contridicts the laws of the universe that have already been established and acredited (i can spell worth shit sorry)

dude doesn't believe in evolution and evolution doesn't seem to believe in him

[BradLohaus]

I believe in God because I have a hard time believing that a single atom existed forever somehow and then exploded into the universe we know today, or that an atom appeared out of the void somehow and then exploded and created the universe we know today.
Of course, an eternal God is impossible as well. So really, I don't see how anything can possibly exist. But here we are, so I go with what makes the most sense to me: a single, eternal and total intelligence that we will never be able to comprehend. And I'm a Methodist for the record.

[LnGrrrR]

I want to believe, but I cannot at this point.

You know, technically, if you don't believe you're already an atheist. Modern usage has tended to say that atheism = knows there's no god and agnostic = doesn't know, but doesn't believe, but that's not really accurate.

A is a prefix meaning 'without'. Theism = Belief, and Gnostic = Knowledge.

I am an agnostic atheist. I do not know if there is a god(s), but I do not believe in any. You can also be a gnostic theist (most religious people), agnostic theist (as bradlohaus seems to be) or gnostic atheist (think Richard Dawkins).

[Supergirl]

I am Jewish. I believe in G-d. I can't prove to you there is a G-d, and I don't believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible/Torah, but I believe there is a G-d. But I don't necessarily believe my G-d is different from the G-d lots of other people of different faiths believe in, we just come at it from different angles.

I am observantly Jewish, but not Orthodox. I belong to a Reform congregation, though Reform Judaism is not necessarily the branch that fits me best - maybe Reconstructionist is the answer to that.

I believe Israel should remain a Jewish state, but also a democracy, as it is currently. I also believe there should be a separate Palestinian state, but not until the leadership among the Palestinians separate themselves from the terrorist organizations in Gaza, Iran, Syria, Egypt, etc.

Philosophically, I find meaning and comfort in a wide variety of sources, inside Judaism and out to Eastern philosophers, Christian mystics, ancient Greeks, etc. But Judaism is where my home is, in part because that's where I was raised.

[fyatuk]

I always refuse to go into detail about my beliefs, but they key point is that there is a universal soul that all things contain a part of. Gods are manifestations of the will of that gods followers (facets of the universal soul).

I came to my set of beliefs after reading religious texts from several different religions (hindu, bhuddism, islam, christianity, several ancient religions) and discovering there are several consistent themes between them. My beliefs came from reconciling that with my christian upbringing.

[DarrinS]

Easy. The same way you don't believe in Santa.


Maybe if you get a large pile of steel, alloys, plastic, and rubber it will spontaneously form itself into an automobile.


This is what you'd have to believe if you think pools of carbon, water, etc. can spontaneously form a human being.

[DarrinS]

You'd also have to believe that you're quite lucky that you remember to breathe and keep your heart beating when you're asleep. It's also quite amazing luck that our cells know how to divide, pass on DNA, etc. What dumb luck, huh?

[JoeChalupa]

Yes, I believe in God and Jesus Christ.
Why? Because I choose to believe.

[I Love Me Some Me]

I am a Christian. I was born and raised in a pretty strict environment, and some pretty strict teachings. It was always "God said it, I believe it, that settles it" type of learning, with never any meat and potatoes behind it. Now, I certainly believe in the omnipotence of God, and if he says something, I should believe it. But, I also believe that a God who we believe to have intricately designed this world doesn't just say things because He's God, and He has the power to say and do whatever he wants. He says and does things because there are logistical, rational reasons behind them. As I've grown older, my hunger for knowledge has led me to search for those rational reasons. I've had luck finding some, and I am still struggling for others. I will never know all of His reasons, but I know that He has them, and I know they can be found (science has done as much).

People often reject Christianity, or religion in general, because of certain problems. But really, there is no neutral place to position yourself in philosophical space. There's nowhere you can turn in which you believe absolutely nothing and therefore don't take on some burden of proof about the position you hold. Everyone has to believe something. Even what appears to be a rejection of all beliefs is a belief. Everyone holds something to be true. Maybe your truth is that nothing else is true, but that is something you believe. Even agnostics and atheists have faith. Atheists believe there is no god (while not being able to prove as much) and agnostics believe that it is not possible to know things about God (while not being able to prove as much).

If you reject religion or Christianity, there is something else that you end up asserting by default. And if you're rejecting religion or Christianity because of it's problems (and it does have problems), then you are only embracing a different set of problems. Agnostics and atheists, especially, are never really forced to face the problems of what they believe, but those problems exist and if you want to challenge Christians (or other faiths) on their unknowns, then you should be willing to accept the challenge to answer your unknowns.

It's not a liability of a particular belief system to have unanswered questions. They all do. Christianity has unanswered questions (not as many as people think), and there are some that I struggle with. Not because of my lack of faith, but because of my aforementioned interest in knowledge and reason. Every world view has it's problems and unanswered questions.

But as I've searched for knowledge, the evidence has led me to believe even more in a single God, who created us and our universe with intricate design and care. It seems to me to be the more reasonable and rational explanation. If you take God out of the equation, then you are saying that everything comes from nothing, life comes from non-life, order comes from chaos, and natural law comes from randomness. And I'm not offering this as an argument for God's existence. I'm trying to put things in perspective when it comes to our belief systems. Some of the things you believe as an atheist or agnostic are just as extreme (if not more extreme) than the problems you think you're avoiding by rejecting the existence of God.

Now, it may be that everything came from nothing. It may be that life came from non-life. It may be that order came from chaos, and natural law came from randomness. But man...you sure do have to have a hell of a lot of faith to believe that kind of thing. It seems to be much more reasonable, given the evidence, that there is a God who is responsible for these things.

[101A]

I was born and raised as a devout Catholic; went to College, fell in love with and Married a Southern Baptist. At that point, I actually started reading and studying the Bible - something my Catholic upbringing DID NOT encourage.

Anyway we attend a Methodist church - a "contemporary" service.

I, of course, went through a period in College, like just about everybody, when I was convinced I was smarter than everybody else, and, that, obviously, religion is simply the opiate of the masses. There is NO proof of a God, and his existence is just so very convenient for the powers that be!!!! My "scientific, analytical" mind couldn't accept such ridiculousness. Well, that Baptist I married was also a DOUBLE MAJOR is Chemistry and Biology - and carried a 3.8. She later got a PhD. in Biochemistry and is one of the authors of this (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v423/n6937/pubmed/nature01577.html).

Anyway, if SHE could be believe in God and HER science certainly trumps mine, well, we had to talk about it. Basically, it's like Lohaus explained it; it takes more faith, frankly, to believe that ALL of this is a big, happy accident, than to believe there is a hand and intelligence guiding it. As my wife explains it is SO COOL how this stuff works - and she does research at the level that she is the FIRST PERSON to know things when she discovers them (kind of cool in itself if you think about it).

Why Christianity? Well, obviously where I was raised, and who I hang with, and who raised me are the primary driving factors for that. But beyond that, I experience affirmations of my choice in subtle ways all the time. Most of you Atheists and Agnostics won't believe them, or will laugh at what I consider them but that's fine - they are for me. Also, for those who claim "All Religions are the Same" - you obviously have not actually studied the various religions and read their books. The message of Jesus Christ in the New Testament is far different from any of the other codes of behavior prescribed by the various religious books.

[spurster]

I am a confused Christian. I'm quite impressed by the witness and the history of the NT. The vengeful God of the OT turns me off though. I am mystified by theology. Why would God need our belief? Why would God give us free will and then punish us for using it?

[JoeChalupa]

I was raised and still am Catholic and I attended BIBLE STUDY on a regular basis.

[101A]

I was raised and still am Catholic and I attended BIBLE STUDY on a regular basis.

That's why I said "My Catholic" upbringing - should have made it more clear; I have met plenty of Catholics since who are well versed in the bible.

[JoeChalupa]

That's why I said "My Catholic" upbringing - should have made it more clear; I have met plenty of Catholics since who are well versed in the bible.

I concur. :tu

[angel_luv]

I live according to faith, not religion. In my experience, there is a huge difference.

Jesus Christ is the one and only Savior of the world.

God's Word- the Bible- is infallible. It is completely pure, holy, and eternally true.

My faith is constantly confirmed through the realities, consequences, and promises of the Bible proving in every circumstance to be absolutely true , not only in my life but also in the lives of people surrounding me and in the world.

[implacable44]

[QUOTE=MaryAnnKilledGinger;2894813]1. What do you believe?
2. Why do you believe it?

Let me say up front that I'm not looking to get into a debate on the existence or lack thereof of God/Jeusu/Allah/Whatever. I don't care about dueling Bible verses. I'm not seeking to question anyone's faith, debate their personal experiences, etc. I can't speak for others that might post in this thread, but I sincerely have no intent to challenge anyone's faith or lack of faith.

QUOTE]

1. I am Mormon - temple endowed and devout.
2. I grew up Mormon and that was my experience from birth. We had Family Home Evening - Church every Sunday and Mutual on Wednesday nights when I got older. When I was at Judson - everyone knew I was Mormon - I never have had a drop of alcohol in my life - no drugs, - no cigarettes - not even coffee or tea -- not a drop or a whiff. I didn't hook up with girls -- no sex. I did make-out - which translates to kissing and an occasional breast. But no genital contact. And for that I had to go see the Bishop. When I was 17, I remember a friend of mine gave me some anti-Mormon literature and I sat down with Howard Nicholas and asked him several questions. In all my 17 years I had never read the Book of Mormon -- I just went through the motions. I graduated Judson and instead of going to Texas Lutheran or Oklahoma State to play -- I chose to go to a small JC up in Rexburg because it was church sponsored and my sister's boyfriend was going. I went up to Rick and was on my own. I think I went to church 4 times while I was in Rexburg. Now - most mormons automatically go on missions for 2 years ( boys go at age 19 and girls at age 21)... I had no desire to go -I wanted to hoop. We were ranked #5 in the country and the football team was #3. Our locker rooms were adjacent and those dudes were always calling us girls etc... so we challenged them to a game of hoops / flag football / bowling contest.. First up was hoops - 2nd play of the game and I punched it on the LB Kevin Kempf and told him about it -- about 5 minutes later I got out on the break and went in for a leaning dunk over him again and he took my legs out and flipped me - broke my wrist. My girlfriend at the time was way into church so I spent time with her and went to church. I went home and decided I would go on a mission too. I had to read the Bible and The Book of Mormon before I would be allowed to go. I did. cover to cover. Wonderful books. I submitted my papers and 3 weeks later - I got the call to Vina del Mar Chile. I don't think I was fully converted when I left for my mission -- but during my mission I was converted through several different experiences and personal revelations. I went to every church I could while in CHile. Catholic, Jehovahs Witness, Methodist, Evangelical, Baptist, 7th Day adventist, Buddhist, etc.. I had talks with Atheists - church leaders from every religious organization - I read books. I prayed. I came home and transferred to the U to play ball there and the first class I enrolled in was World Religions. I took philosophy. At the end of the day for me -- I know what I feel. I know what I believe. Faith is funny because you can't prove it -- you can't prove it with science or the history of the church. You can't prove or disprove the existence of Diety with science - facts.. It is something you feel. And at the end of the day - when I die .. I am comfortable knowing that even if I was wrong in this life and Mormonism was not the way -- -that I lived according to what I believed and I was happy.

[baseline bum]

Maybe if you get a large pile of steel, alloys, plastic, and rubber it will spontaneously form itself into an automobile.


This is what you'd have to believe if you think pools of carbon, water, etc. can spontaneously form a human being.

I guess you were sleeping or jerking off in the bathroom when natural selection was taught in your biology class.

[101A]

I guess you were sleeping or jerking off in the bathroom when natural selection was taught in your biology class.

That's right.

Just wait a few billion years, and the large pile of steel, alloys, plastic, and rubber will select itself into an automobile, after it was first a submarine, then a boat, then a horse cart, etc....

[baseline bum]

That's right.

Just wait a few billion years, and the large pile of steel, alloys, plastic, and rubber will select itself into an automobile, after it was first a submarine, then a boat, then a horse cart, etc....

So does your wife also consider natural selection some extremely improbable process?

[baseline bum]

People often reject Christianity, or religion in general, because of certain problems. But really, there is no neutral place to position yourself in philosophical space. There's nowhere you can turn in which you believe absolutely nothing and therefore don't take on some burden of proof about the position you hold. Everyone has to believe something. Even what appears to be a rejection of all beliefs is a belief. Everyone holds something to be true. Maybe your truth is that nothing else is true, but that is something you believe. Even agnostics and atheists have faith. Atheists believe there is no god (while not being able to prove as much) and agnostics believe that it is not possible to know things about God (while not being able to prove as much).


This is ridiculous when believers try to bring atheists down to their level. Atheism isn't faith at all; it's rationalism. I hate when believers go to this kind of massively flawed logic that it's on the atheist to prove god's non-existence. You don't prove something is true by lack of counter-example, but theists are perfectly happy justifying their god by it. Most atheists do not have faith. Most atheists think god is unlikely as a rationalist will say about any other hypothesis supported by no evidence. The idea that my theory is correct because your contradictory theory is incomplete is nonsense.

[I Love Me Some Me]

This is ridiculous when believers try to bring atheists down to their level. Atheism isn't faith at all; it's rationalism. I hate when believers go to this kind of massively flawed logic that it's on the atheist to prove god's non-existence. You don't prove something is true by lack of counter-example, but theists are perfectly happy justifying their god by it. Most atheists do not have faith. Most atheists think god is unlikely as a rationalist will say about any other hypothesis supported by no evidence. The idea that my theory is correct because your contradictory theory is incomplete is nonsense.

Read. Comprehend. Then post.

I specifically stated that I wasn't making an argument for the existence of God. I was simply pointing out that there are problems and unknowns in every belief system. Are there not unknowns to the atheist? Why is there no burden of proof on their belief system, when they clearly believe in things that are not supported by any evidence of any kind? When you tell me it's not God, then you have a burden of proof to explain how something comes from nothing, how life comes from non-life, how order comes from chaos, and how natural law comes from randomness. Proof...not theory...proof. You don't have it, but you choose to believe anyway.

It's impossible to not believe in anything. Impossible.

[baseline bum]

Read. Comprehend. Then post.

I specifically stated that I wasn't making an argument for the existence of God. I was simply pointing out that there are problems and unknowns in every belief system. Are there not unknowns to the atheist? Why is there no burden of proof on their belief system, when they clearly believe in things that are not supported by any evidence of any kind? When you tell me it's not God, then you have a burden of proof to explain how something comes from nothing, how life comes from non-life, how order comes from chaos, and how natural law comes from randomness. Proof...not theory...proof. You don't have it, but you choose to believe anyway.

It's impossible to not believe in anything. Impossible.

Everything you asked is addressed in my post above.

[101A]

So does your wife also consider natural selection some extremely improbable process?

No. Natural Selection; espoused by Darwin as a way for animals to evolve most certainly occurs.

However, what put the process in motion is where we probably disagree.

Taking the accumulation of raw parts as an example.

I can grant that they could evolve from a Submarine, to a Boat, to a Horse Cart, until they were eventually an automobile.

The problem I have, and you you cannot answer, is HOW they became a Submarine in the first place.

[baseline bum]

No. Natural Selection; espoused by Darwin as a way for animals to evolve most certainly occurs.

However, what put the process in motion is where we probably disagree.

Taking the accumulation of raw parts as an example.

I can grant that they could evolve from a Submarine, to a Boat, to a Horse Cart, until they were eventually an automobile.

The problem I have, and you you cannot answer, is HOW they became a Submarine in the first place.

You can't answer it either. Painting god in such broad strokes so that it is by definition the answer isn't very convincing.

[I Love Me Some Me]

Everything you asked is addressed in my post above.

No it is not.

How did something come from nothing?

How did life come from non-life?

You may not know the answer, but you believe that science will ultimately tell us that it was natural cause.

[ploto]

I have never had a problem with having vantage points of both of a spiritual and a rational nature. It has never been a conflict to me. I approach religion and faith in one context with an entirely different view through which I view mathematics, for example. I have never asked religion to be science, and I have never asked science to be religion. They are two entirely different things. I do not read a work of literature within the guidelines of the rules of geometry; moreover, I do not view the meaning of life within the confines of rigid scientific thought.

It just has never seemed like a conflict to me because I do not try to make one into another. It is why I have no problem with saying that things in the Bible are not scientifically accurate and that in no way shatters my faith because the Bible is not a science book. It is a spiritual book and I believe the spiritual truths within it. In the same way, I do not expect my Calculus book to teach me about a meaning in life above and beyond myself.

I also do not believe that religious people have a monopoly on the truth; that they alone have moral standing; or that anyone has the right answers. I am most suspicious of anyone who claims to have it all figured it out.

I also have faith in Christ, sometimes because of but quite often despite the behavior and words of those who act and speak in His name.

[101A]

This is ridiculous when believers try to bring atheists down to their level. Atheism isn't faith at all; it's rationalism. I hate when believers go to this kind of massively flawed logic that it's on the atheist to prove god's non-existence. You don't prove something is true by lack of counter-example, but theists are perfectly happy justifying their god by it. Most atheists do not have faith. Most atheists think god is unlikely as a rationalist will say about any other hypothesis supported by no evidence. The idea that my theory is correct because your contradictory theory is incomplete is nonsense.

That's not what he said.

He said your theory is JUST as incomplete as his.

[baseline bum]

No it is not.

How did something come from nothing?

How did life come from non-life?

You may not know the answer, but you believe that science will ultimately tell us that it was natural cause.

I do think science will come up with a better explanation, since it actually searches for one instead of saying it already knows the answer and it cannot change.

[I Love Me Some Me]

I do think science will come up with a better explanation, since it actually searches for one instead of saying it already knows the answer and it cannot change.

Think = believe. Congratulations, you do have beliefs.


By the way, I'd argue that I am more open minded than you are on the science thing.

I can follow science and let the evidence lead me to ANY conclusion. I've said it's possible that life comes from non-life, etc...and I'm willing to accept every possible explanation (including one that eliminates a creator).

You have already eliminated one possible answer from consideration.

[baseline bum]

Think = believe. Congratulations, you do have beliefs.


By the way, I'd argue that I am more open minded than you are on the science thing.

I can follow science and let the evidence lead me to ANY conclusion. I've said it's possible that life comes from non-life, etc...and I'm willing to accept every possible explanation (including one that eliminates a creator).

You have already eliminated one possible answer from consideration.

The scientific method is an ever changing process uses extreme skepticism with creating and updating theory to match physical evidence. To put it at the same level as belief in an unchanging book is crazy.

[I. Hustle]

I don’t like to get into these “discussions” but oh well, why not join in the fun right?
Growing up I had two extremes. For the first part of my life my father was a drug dealer and a pretty tough dude. We had guns, drugs and money all over the place in my house. When I was about 13 he decided to get his stuff together (my mom said she was taking off with me and my bro if not) and entered a church rehab program. I am 28 now (days from 29 in case you want to get me a gift) and he has been involved in the church ever since. To the point of opening his own and becoming a Pastor.
I do not consider myself “Christian” since I do not actively go to church and don’t believe that I behave like a true Christian but I do defend it a lot because of the change that I have seen my father go through. Who am I to say that he is wrong or right? All I know is that he cleaned himself up and in the process he has helped and continues to help people overcome their addictions and problems.
I don’t understand why atheist or non-believers feel the need to call Christians narrow minded or shallow for believing a certain way but then in turn call them stupid for not believing the way they do. Yes I know there are “bible thumpers” that shove their beliefs in your face but there are also non-believers that shove theirs beliefs too. Who cares what you believe as long as it makes you content? These people who say another group is stupid for believing the way they do to make themselves feel better are the real idiots.

[I. Hustle]

The love for his wife and children changed your dads life.:toast

Either way, my point was that he made a decision. The church was the route he decided to take in order to make that change.
It upsets me when people choose to slam Christians just because they don't believe the same way. My dad is one of the smartest men I know. Why hate on someone who believes what they want to? My dad believes that your life should be an open book and that people should see Christ in you without you shoving it down your throat. He helps people with their addictions as well as his community.
I may not be the church going boyscout but why slam people that are?

[angel_luv]

I am a Christian. I was born and raised in a pretty strict environment, and some pretty strict teachings. It was always "God said it, I believe it, that settles it" type of learning, with never any meat and potatoes behind it. Now, I certainly believe in the omnipotence of God, and if he says something, I should believe it. But, I also believe that a God who we believe to have intricately designed this world doesn't just say things because He's God, and He has the power to say and do whatever he wants. He says and does things because there are logistical, rational reasons behind them. As I've grown older, my hunger for knowledge has led me to search for those rational reasons. I've had luck finding some, and I am still struggling for others. I will never know all of His reasons, but I know that He has them, and I know they can be found (science has done as much).

People often reject Christianity, or religion in general, because of certain problems. But really, there is no neutral place to position yourself in philosophical space. There's nowhere you can turn in which you believe absolutely nothing and therefore don't take on some burden of proof about the position you hold. Everyone has to believe something. Even what appears to be a rejection of all beliefs is a belief. Everyone holds something to be true. Maybe your truth is that nothing else is true, but that is something you believe. Even agnostics and atheists have faith. Atheists believe there is no god (while not being able to prove as much) and agnostics believe that it is not possible to know things about God (while not being able to prove as much).

If you reject religion or Christianity, there is something else that you end up asserting by default. And if you're rejecting religion or Christianity because of it's problems (and it does have problems), then you are only embracing a different set of problems. Agnostics and atheists, especially, are never really forced to face the problems of what they believe, but those problems exist and if you want to challenge Christians (or other faiths) on their unknowns, then you should be willing to accept the challenge to answer your unknowns.

It's not a liability of a particular belief system to have unanswered questions. They all do. Christianity has unanswered questions (not as many as people think), and there are some that I struggle with. Not because of my lack of faith, but because of my aforementioned interest in knowledge and reason. Every world view has it's problems and unanswered questions.

But as I've searched for knowledge, the evidence has led me to believe even more in a single God, who created us and our universe with intricate design and care. It seems to me to be the more reasonable and rational explanation. If you take God out of the equation, then you are saying that everything comes from nothing, life comes from non-life, order comes from chaos, and natural law comes from randomness. And I'm not offering this as an argument for God's existence. I'm trying to put things in perspective when it comes to our belief systems. Some of the things you believe as an atheist or agnostic are just as extreme (if not more extreme) than the problems you think you're avoiding by rejecting the existence of God.

Now, it may be that everything came from nothing. It may be that life came from non-life. It may be that order came from chaos, and natural law came from randomness. But man...you sure do have to have a hell of a lot of faith to believe that kind of thing. It seems to be much more reasonable, given the evidence, that there is a God who is responsible for these things.




Why Christianity? Well, obviously where I was raised, and who I hang with, and who raised me are the primary driving factors for that. But beyond that, I experience affirmations of my choice in subtle ways all the time. Most of you Atheists and Agnostics won't believe them, or will laugh at what I consider them but that's fine - they are for me. Also, for those who claim "All Religions are the Same" - you obviously have not actually studied the various religions and read their books. The message of Jesus Christ in the New Testament is far different from any of the other codes of behavior prescribed by the various religious books.

Well stated. Thanks for posting. :)

[I Love Me Some Me]

The scientific method is an ever changing process uses extreme skepticism with creating and updating theory to match physical evidence. To put it at the same level as belief in an unchanging book is crazy.

When did I say science was the same as the Bible (which is what I assume you are referring to when you say "belief in an unchanging book)?

My last statement was that my faith allows me to be more open minded about the direction science takes us than atheism does. I can openly consider all possible options...atheists cannot. By definition, they are starting their research by eliminating a possible conclusion. I, on the other hand, have not eliminated any possible conclusion.


(BTW-perhaps the book hasn't changed because it's accurate.)

[JoeChalupa]

I understand that religion is a topic of discussion but, IMO, when it comes to faith you simply have it or you don't. Nothing anybody can ever post in here could change my faith. But I do enjoy reading the many views.
Carry on.

[baseline bum]

(BTW-perhaps the book hasn't changed because it's accurate.)

The book hasn't changed because it's accurate? :lmao

So we should put people to death for working on Saturday or for disobeying their parents?

[The Reckoning]

i'm catholic. i believe God is the intangible, mystical force that binds us all and is the solid foundation for the universe. i think its incredible that the universe is so stable and humans have survived extinction for so long, and how life came about from an amazingly complex chemical reaction, which has been able to sustain itself for so long. not without outside help, of course. why does water not freeze at a certain depth?

in my opinion, God established the sequence of thought (creation) and constructed our Cartesian Theaters, which allow us to think in our own terms and create our own ideas - like demigods.

i think God was never meant to be the now accepted judeo-christian God (big guy in the sky with the white beard), but that was most likely due to a severe misinterpretation of a book of intellectual writings attempting to describe the concept of God in a metaphorical sense. the Bible is pure genius, but only if you look behind the ink and really reflect on it besides just regurgitating metaphors. i dont think God sits on his mighty throne-cloud and instigates random miracles. we are God's throne, and God's miracles are shown through the goodwill and kind acts by the greatest miracle of all -- free will.

that said, i think 95% of athiests are so out of spite. most athiests cite their atheism due to not believing the misinterpreted metaphors of Christian doctrine. its as if the athiests are sucked into the same ignorance that many Christians are. there are a million different religions and interpretations out there, and if none of them fit, make one up.

The Grand Inquisitor is the shit. Dostoevsky nailed that chapter.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Man is the greatest thing in the universe. NOTHING IS GREATER THAN MAN. The idea that a man will fall to his knees and worship something that he cant prove exsists is perfect evidence that man has lost his mind... literally!!!

if ur prop 8 buddies read this, they'd blow a gasket

[Viva Las Espuelas]

atheists' dogma is awfully religious

[baseline bum]

atheists' dogma is awfully religious

Can you please ever make a post on this forum that can be taken as anything other than knee-jerk?

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Can you please ever make a post on this forum that can be taken as anything other than knee-jerk?
quality, not quantity.

[Spurminator]

I'm a Christian primarily because of my upbringing, but I have remained a Christian through experience and reflection. I am a naturally skeptical person and I very often find myself straying from my faith, only to be pulled back in by events in my life or revelations that, for me, reaffirm my belief in a Higher Power. I have been blessed in my life well beyond anything I have truly earned on my own. Whether I would come to attribute any of this to a Higher Power if I had been raised in a non-Christian home, I don't know. But I'm thankful for my upbringing.

I also believe that the greatest threat to Christianity is its followers, who wear the badge of Christianity while failing to be an example of Jesus Christ. I place myself into that group, because I know I have enormous shortcomings as a Christian. But it discourages me to see Christians devoted to causes rooted in hate, rather than love.

[JoeChalupa]

quality, not quantity.

I concur.

[ElNono]

1. What do you believe?

I don't believe there is a god. And I think religion is a social construct created by humans used as a tool in order to keep certain people in check. It worked a lot better when we didn't have the knowledge that we have today. And I think as we progress scientifically as a civilization, it's power will dwindle even more. I think as a civilization, we have come a long way discovering and scientifically explaining very, very complex systems. There's still a whole lot more to figure out, and some of the answers can only be built on top of more answers as we find them. I understand that advancing the sciences is a very long process. Our civilization might never finish it. But that doesn't bother me in the least. I'm happy that everyone, including you and me, through our own discoveries, can help.


2. Why do you believe it?

I grew up in a christian house. Parents took me to church every Sunday, and I had baptism, first communion and confirmation. As part of the process, I attended cathecism classes and learned what I needed to learn about the Bible. I always had the personal trait of being somewhat rebellious and like to question authority. At some point my own rational thinking and skepticism grew big enough to simply view things from outside religion, and try to make sense of them without assigning them to the supernatural. As years went by, and science kept on giving rational explanations to phenomena that was previously only attributable to the supernatural, that opinion got reinforced.

[I Love Me Some Me]

...science kept on giving rational explanations to phenomena that was previously only attributable to the supernatural, that opinion got reinforced.

Just curious...what, exactly?

[I Love Me Some Me]

The book hasn't changed because it's accurate? :lmao

So we should put people to death for working on Saturday or for disobeying their parents?

OT law v. NT covenant...another time, another thread. Besides, that was a flippant half-joke.


Feel free to address the meat of the post if you're so inclined:

My last statement was that my faith allows me to be more open minded about the direction science takes us than atheism does. I can openly consider all possible options...atheists cannot. By definition, they are starting their research by eliminating a possible conclusion. I, on the other hand, have not eliminated any possible conclusion.

[DarkReign]

This is an ooooold post when I first joined ST. The overall message still holds. My writing style was more or less crap at the time I wrote this because its actually older than when I posted it here at ST.


Posted many moons ago on another forum

I just happened upon this thread, so bear with me...

First off, I am agnostic (if this is an acceptable label for those who enjoy them).

All forms of mass religion are existential beliefs looking to someone/something else for answers/questions/guidance/etc.

It is my opinion that God is not outward, but very much inward.

I dont have the answers for everything (not even a damn shade close), and I would bet nor does any other human.

But, you know that feeling you get when you open that door for a complete stranger just as a simple gesture of good will? Or some form of the cliché "walking an old lady across the street"? Or for giving a little money to the “down on his luck” family member who just lost their job? Or the admiration you see in your child’s eyes and the aspiration to be an example worthy of his praise?

That is the power that binds. That is as close to a God as I will ever need. I dont believe in Christianity, Islam, Hindu, etc. Those are all human machinations created in a veiled attempt to capitulate the masses into subservience and conformity. Really, take a look at the timeline when organized religion came around. Look at the political landscape and the incessant war being waged by fellow countrymen.

It was chaos. The power-brokers (usually warlords and land owners) were in a unique position to see opportunity. Patriotism comes in a distant second to faith. Based upon the rites of the pagans religion before them (ever wonder why Christmas is in December? It is a well known fact that Jesus was never born anywhere near that date, but the pagans already had a major holiday in that moon phase. In a highly effective recruiting tactic, Jesus was suddenly born in that same timeframe. Hmmm...), religion sprung from the deep down longing of the human spirit to believe in something greater than itself.

Obviously, there are exceptions to every rule. People claim they have no belief and I whole-heartedly believe them.

But, what I wont buy is that they feel no innate connection to their fellow man, and even some cases, a much stronger feeling to the Earth and animals.

Let the religious decide amongst themselves whose God is right or wrong.

I walk confidently thru my days knowing as a life-form, I share a bond with all forms of life that is stronger than any faith based, Bible-thumping nitwit could ever claim.

We are all born with a "feeling". A closeness that was/is separate from the rest of the animals because we seen ourselves as superior in some light. In ways, we are. But I will not lose my respect for the life that was, the life that is, and the life that will be.

We all control our own destinies, but in some small way we share our destiny. We arent some single-source creation of some higher being. We are the product of a system that extends well beyond some man-made heaven and hell.

I have always felt myself separate from the ideologies of those around me my whole life. I was never a classic-religious, "member of the flock", sheep looking for my sheppard skyward. Nor was I a nihilist objecting to any sort of common fabric that binds.

Then, after 15 years of close contemplation, I read a book called Hyperspace. A scientific study explaining the possibilities and impact of string theory. In that book, the authors' attempt to create an analogy that explains what a 4th dimensional being would look like to us ("us" being 3 dimensional beings). It provoked a stunning revelation for me.

The authors' basically said, and I completely paraphrase and will speak in the authors' voice for clarity:


"To understand what it is to even try and wrap the human brain around the appearance or even existence of a 4th dimensional being is impossible. To give humans a vague idea, picture a race of beings existing in 2 dimensions for a moment. Thats right, youre a stick figure on a sheet of paper, with stick buildings and other stick people who inhabit this sheet of paper. You have a society, religion, and economy. Now, imagine a human entering your world. How does a 3-D being enter a 2-D world, you ask? Easy, stick his finger thru the sheet of paper. The effect could be 2 fold. One, you destroy their world creating a rift in the fabric of their existence. Or two (and this is the accepted idea), you pass thru only revealing to those 2-D stick-people the portion of your physical body that sits on their plane of existence (ie the sheet of paper). You would only be perceived as a floating, shape-changing blob of very odd coloration and texture (the cross section of a human finger).


Now, with that analogy in mind and with the empathy you hold for those poor 2-D stick-people, try and imagine what a 4-D being would look like to us. The scientific response to any such hypothesis would of utter disregard. The cold, hard truth is no matter your imagination, no matter your dreams or how smart you are, it is impossible to have any concept of what said being would “look” like.

I could go on and on about what all of this meant to me and how profound the universe became with one chapter, but it would be pointless.

I have come to conclusion that there are 4 kinds of people (I hate labels, but they seem to give better perspective for those that need them):

a) Those that think they have it all figured out and seek no more introspection on the subject. They accept only the “faithful” and vilify the “unfaithful” as heathens. Their existential lives dedicated to the furthering of their agenda.(religious zealots)

b) Those that admit their shortcomings in the eyes of a societal God and seek endless introspection as to why. Their existential lives are spent in a small or large capacity to the furthering of their religious beliefs/affiliation. (religious people in general)

c) Those that adhere to no consensus standard but admit to the same feeling the religious people experience but do not hold it to any specific idols, and seek introspection on the basis of personal well-being and understanding of oneself. Their existential lives are spent in solitary refinement and only share their ideals when provoked. (agnostic or whatever label is placed upon them by those who don’t understand)

d) Those that have no care for the mysteries of life that science cannot explain and spend very little time concerned with introspection on the dynamic human/nature/life relationship. Their existential lives will either never develop or be hastened when confronted with death. (atheists)

By no means does one or the other make this person “bad” or criminally lenient. It just is. Those factors are completely dependant upon individual decisions.

Maybe you don’t fall into a category. I say good for you! Be different. Be harmonious and thoughtful. Experience this gift to its fullest and enjoy the time spent with the world and its beauty.

I am as close to “God” now than I have ever been. I find fulfillment not from a book or a building, I find it in life. I hope you do too.

[I. Hustle]

And I think as we progress scientifically as a civilization, it's power will dwindle even more. I think as a civilization, we have come a long way discovering and scientifically explaining very, very complex systems. There's still a whole lot more to figure out, and some of the answers can only be built on top of more answers as we find them. I understand that advancing the sciences is a very long process. Our civilization might never finish it. But that doesn't bother me in the least. I'm happy that everyone, including you and me, through our own discoveries, can help.





Not going to happen dude. It will never dwindle down. As long as we have natural disasters, death, life, etc. it will always be around.
I am not arguing for it or against it, just stating a fact.

[ElNono]

Just curious...what, exactly?

Too many to list... I'll give you one off the top of my head: creation of life was attributed to be restricted to the supernatural.

[I Love Me Some Me]

Too many to list... I'll give you one off the top of my head: creation of life was attributed to be restricted to the supernatural.

When has life from non-life been duplicated?

[smeagol]

I'm a Catholic. I was not born into a religious household. My mom is a Catholic too, but she does no practice, aside assiting to Church on Christmas day. She probably knows less about her religion than many atheist who post on tis board. My dad is an atheist . . a baseline bum kind of Atheist.

I went to Church as a child and recieved my First Communion. I never got Confirmed. I drifted away from Jesus in my late teens. I became and agnostic for the better part of my 20s until I started reading the Bible and other Christian books again (Chesterton, CS Lewis).

It was then when I started putting a lot of thought into religion and concluded, as many others have pointed out, that the proof there is a God is around us. I strongly believe there is no way we are the result of randomness taking place since the beginning of times. The Earth and all it's beauty (especially human kind) appears to be part of somebody's plan.

[JoeChalupa]

I'm a Catholic. I was not born into a religious household. My mom is a Catholic too, but she does no practice, aside assiting to Church on Christmas day. She probably knows less about her religion than many atheist who post on tis board. My dad is an atheist . . a baseline bum kind of Atheist.

I went to Church as a child and recieved my First Communion. I never got Confirmed. I drifted away from Jesus in my late teens. I became and agnostic for the better part of my 20s until I started reading the Bible and other Christian books again (Chesterton, CS Lewis).

It was then when I started putting a lot of thought into religion and concluded, as many others have pointed out, that the proof there is a God is around us. I strongly believe there is no way we are the result of randomness taking place since the beginning of times. The Earth and all it's beauty (especially human kind) appears to be part of somebody's plan.

I concur. I see God every single day.

[ElNono]

Not going to happen dude. It will never dwindle down. As long as we have natural disasters, death, life, etc. it will always be around.
I am not arguing for it or against it, just stating a fact.

You're proposing that we'll never be able to determine what causes those things, and stating that as a fact. I'll say it's an opinion, just as good as anyones'. Actually, I think we came a long way on one of those (life), and I think what precludes us to know more about disasters is the sheer amount of data we would need to have at hand to study them.

[ElNono]

When has life from non-life been duplicated?

In a lab, many many times. Google Abiogenesis.

[DarrinS]

I guess you were sleeping or jerking off in the bathroom when natural selection was taught in your biology class.

Why does a god or a "higher power" or whatever and evolution have to be mutually exclusive?


To me, the power or force or whatever that causes a chromosome to replicate is what I call "god".

For the record, I don't believe there's a man with a white beard sitting on a throne in the clouds.

[ElNono]

The Earth and all it's beauty (especially human kind) appears to be part of somebody's plan.

Your opinion is certainly welcome, and I'm not going to argue with you about it, but I think it's interesting what you posted above, because Earth didn't look anything like it looks like today many million years ago, before there was life in it.

[DarrinS]

Your opinion is certainly welcome, and I'm not going to argue with you about it, but I think it's interesting what you posted above, because Earth didn't look anything like it looks like today many million years ago, before there was life in it.



That's when Earth was in its IDEAL state. Humans suck.


Sincerely,


The Environmentalist Movement

[fyatuk]

In a lab, many many times. Google Abiogenesis.

I was going to point out that at the very least we've managed simple proteins (IIRC) from inorganic material, which shows it's at least possible. That was back when I was in high school and I've made no effort to keep up to date.

[ElNono]

That's when Earth was in its IDEAL state. Humans suck.

Sincerely,
The Environmentalist Movement

:lol

[101A]

In a lab, many many times. Google Abiogenesis.

Link.

[101A]

I was going to point out that at the very least we've managed simple proteins (IIRC) from inorganic material, which shows it's at least possible. That was back when I was in high school and I've made no effort to keep up to date.

Organic material does not life make.

The instant I die, EVERY SINGLE thing necessary for life will be present and accounted for - but I won't be.

[I Love Me Some Me]

In a lab, many many times. Google Abiogenesis.

I'm familiar, as I am with the Miller–Urey experiments, which have proven to be less and less significant as time and further research goes on.

If this is all you need as evidence, you are pretty easy to please.

[I. Hustle]

You're proposing that we'll never be able to determine what causes those things, and stating that as a fact. I'll say it's an opinion, just as good as anyones'. Actually, I think we came a long way on one of those (life), and I think what precludes us to know more about disasters is the sheer amount of data we would need to have at hand to study them.

No I am proposing that as long as those things occur that there will always be people that believe in some type of celestial being. I am not saying that science won't come up with ideas as to why these things happen I am just saying that people are always going to be in awe of certain events and attribute them to a higher power.
As long as we have those people, religion will not go away and that is a fact.

[ElNono]

Link.

Abiogenesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_life)

[101A]

Abiogenesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_life)

Oh.

You mean the one that says this:



From organic molecules to protocells

The question "How do simple organic molecules form a protocell?" is largely unanswered but there are many hypotheses.

[ElNono]

I'm familiar, as I am with the Miller–Urey experiments, which have proven to be less and less significant as time and further research goes on.

If this is all you need as evidence, you are pretty easy to please.

That you don't give it the importance it deserves it's a different story altogether. It's a verifiable experiment that shows you can create organic elements from non-organic parts. This factually refutes one of the claims that life could not have come from non-life. If the basic ingredients of life can be created by non-life components, then we have the first stone of our building. Right now this experiment have triggered further theories on how those components have merged together into RNA/DNA. That combination has only been done in a lab these days, as we discussed with another forum member here, but I think as more research is done, we'll figure out exactly which one of the theories is correct.

[Phenomanul]

In a lab, many many times. Google Abiogenesis.

Not entirely true...

Man's explicit micro-management of such experiments invalidates the notion that the processes in question can occur naturally without his interference.

But given our previous discussion on that very element.... you and I will never see eye to eye on that one... In fact you skirted this particular point three times... choosing instead to suggest that it was possible that somewhere in our universe we would find planets with "man-made" chemicals/plastics. While 'possible', that notion is rather inplausible... I mean, it would be wishful thinking to suggest that chemicals created by man's own creative intellect - ones with no natural equivalent... can be duplicated by random acts of nature.

[ElNono]

Oh.

You mean the one that says this:



rom organic molecules to protocells

The question "How do simple organic molecules form a protocell?" is largely unanswered but there are many hypotheses.



We don't know how it happened without human intervention. Doesn't mean we don't know or have not built protocells from organic molecules.
You can ask Phenomanul right here in this very forum. Even if we don't agree on wether this could have been a natural occurrence or not, we certainly agree that we know how to do it.

[ElNono]

Not entirely true...

Man's explicit micro-management of such experiments invalidates the notion that the processes in question can occur naturally without his interference.

But given our previous discussion on that very element.... you and I will never see eye to eye on that one... In fact you skirted this particular point three times... choosing instead to suggest that it was possible that somewhere in our universe we would find planets with "man-made" chemicals/plastics. While 'possible', that notion is rather inplausible... I mean, it would be wishful thinking to suggest that chemicals created by man's own creative intellect - ones with no natural equivalent... can be duplicated by random acts of nature.

I know we don't agree. You probably could not naturally reproduce the Miller-Urey experiment in today's Earth. The reality is that the Earth didn't look like today million years ago. And that the importance of the Miller-Urey experiment is so great is because it fits with the description of what the Earth looked like way back when.

[baseline bum]

that said, i think 95% of athiests are so out of spite. most athiests cite their atheism due to not believing the misinterpreted metaphors of Christian doctrine. its as if the athiests are sucked into the same ignorance that many Christians are. there are a million different religions and interpretations out there, and if none of them fit, make one up.

This statement is a gross oversimplification. My disillusionment with religious institutes comes from spite at organized power grabs by people looking to push their dogma on everyone. If you consider it small-minded and hateful to have extreme quarrels with the religious right pushing their religion in kids' science classes, a place where people are supposed to learn skepticism and formation of theories based on hard evidence and not faith or feelings, then there's really nothing I can say to you. If you think I'm arrogant because I say the church is full of it when they profess to know the answers to all of the big questions, so be it. But religion has an incredibly checkered history, and it's not doing too well in the present when you have people like Bush saying he invaded Iraq because god told him to do it and you have muslim extremists killing so they can be sent to a martyr's paradise not unlike the one promised to every faithful Christian by the bible. Religion is big business, and preys on people's greatest hopes and fears to make money. There's Oral Roberts threatening to kill himself if his flock didn't donate $8 million. There's L Ron Hubbard writing a book to get tax-exempt status for his blackmail of Hollywood actors who reveal their biggest skeletons to his church at their weakest moments. There's that scumbag Hagee here who lives like a Persian king on the money he raises from the suckers who phone him in. Jim Bakker. Ted Haggard. The Taliban. George Bush. Osama Bin Laden. This is the face of religion. Religion is the abstraction of the idea of "believe me because I say so".

My atheism comes from the lack of evidence to support the existence of a god. Logic dictates that a valid argument can still be correctly used to reach any conclusion if it is based on a false premise. Technically, a valid argument can establish an arbitrary conclusion if an assumption going in is unsound. Hence, muslim extremists can easily argue that their suicide bombings are the most honorable actions they could ever do. Christians can convince themselves it is honorable to deny civil rights to gays because the book says they're sinners. Back on point, I cannot accept the idea of a supernatural god on the idea that physical evidence isn't needed for something entirely supernatural. It makes no sense to believe something that cannot be reasonably shown to be true, as this throws knowledge into chaos.

[Phenomanul]

Anyways, it's a matter of perspective....

Most will see in such experiments only what their world view allows them to see.

As interesting as this subject has always been for me, I don't have the time to discuss it on end (it makes me rather unproductive at work and at home)....

[ElNono]

Anyways, it's a matter of perspective....

Most will see in such experiments only what their world view allows them to see.

As interesting as this subject has always been for me, I don't have the time to discuss it on end (it makes me rather unproductive at work and at home)....

I know. We just have different views on this. Nothing wrong with that, and this thread is certainly not for that. :toast

[The Reckoning]

This statement is a gross oversimplification. My disillusionment with religious institutes comes from spite at organized power grabs by people looking to push their dogma on everyone.

it sounds like youre more of a nihilist. not all believers use religion as a weapon and to make money. the assholes do, and i think all people should speak out against them. thats where the word antichrist is born from - people who claim to be prophets and try to use religion in a profitable way. i cringe when i see infomercials trying to sell crosses. it really pisses me off. ive also had people tell me before that i was going to hell if i didnt convert to their beliefs :rolleyes. i just ignore them and move on. im not going to change my own opinion about a higher power if everyone else is pissing on the concept.

[Duff McCartney]

This statement is a gross oversimplification. My disillusionment with religious institutes comes from spite at organized power grabs by people looking to push their dogma on everyone. If you consider it small-minded and hateful to have extreme quarrels with the religious right pushing their religion in kids' science classes, a place where people are supposed to learn skepticism and formation of theories based on hard evidence and not faith or feelings, then there's really nothing I can say to you. If you think I'm arrogant because I say the church is full of it when they profess to know the answers to all of the big questions, so be it. But religion has an incredibly checkered history, and it's not doing too well in the present when you have people like Bush saying he invaded Iraq because god told him to do it and you have muslim extremists killing so they can be sent to a martyr's paradise not unlike the one promised to every faithful Christian by the bible. Religion is big business, and preys on people's greatest hopes and fears to make money. There's Oral Roberts threatening to kill himself if his flock didn't donate $8 million. There's L Ron Hubbard writing a book to get tax-exempt status for his blackmail of Hollywood actors who reveal their biggest skeletons to his church at their weakest moments. There's that scumbag Hagee here who lives like a Persian king on the money he raises from the suckers who phone him in. Jim Bakker. Ted Haggard. The Taliban. George Bush. Osama Bin Laden. This is the face of religion. Religion is the abstraction of the idea of "believe me because I say so".

My atheism comes from the lack of evidence to support the existence of a god. Logic dictates that a valid argument can still be correctly used to reach any conclusion if it is based on a false premise. Technically, a valid argument can establish an arbitrary conclusion if an assumption going in is unsound. Hence, muslim extremists can easily argue that their suicide bombings are the most honorable actions they could ever do. Christians can convince themselves it is honorable to deny civil rights to gays because the book says they're sinners. Back on point, I cannot accept the idea of a supernatural god on the idea that physical evidence isn't needed for something entirely supernatural. It makes no sense to believe something that cannot be reasonably shown to be true, as this throws knowledge into chaos.

Well said...I'm pretty much the same way. But on the other hand...I fully understand why some people are religious. There are passages in every scripture that do speak to some innermost feelings of people. But I put them on the same level as hearing a really good song with really strong lyrics. To me the same feelings I would feel reading a passage in Psalms is the same feeling I get hearing Don't Let Me Down by The Beatles.

P.S. You forgot to include Meir Kahane in your list of religious nuts.

[ElNono]

No I am proposing that as long as those things occur that there will always be people that believe in some type of celestial being. I am not saying that science won't come up with ideas as to why these things happen I am just saying that people are always going to be in awe of certain events and attribute them to a higher power.
As long as we have those people, religion will not go away and that is a fact.

Well, I do agree that certain people are way too attached to their religious beliefs. I also think it helps some of that people in a good way. Psychology has taken a portion of that clientèle away. And I'm sure as generations go by, and we become more knowledgeable in social behavior, we'll see the power of religion as a social tool dwindle. Obviously, this is just my opinion.

[samikeyp]

God, somewhat, Religion, no.

I don't like being told how to believe or who to believe in.

[LnGrrrR]

Maybe if you get a large pile of steel, alloys, plastic, and rubber it will spontaneously form itself into an automobile.


This is what you'd have to believe if you think pools of carbon, water, etc. can spontaneously form a human being.

Yet God can spontaneously create himself? A being with the power to know all, do all, and yet he cares about us intricately?

[LnGrrrR]

You'd also have to believe that you're quite lucky that you remember to breathe and keep your heart beating when you're asleep. It's also quite amazing luck that our cells know how to divide, pass on DNA, etc. What dumb luck, huh?

What are the odds that I would wake up this morning, go get a sip of orange juice, yawn, get dressed, and drive to work in exactly 17 minutes and 12 seconds? Probably astronomical. You'll need a better argument than 'odds'.

[LnGrrrR]

People often reject Christianity, or religion in general, because of certain problems. But really, there is no neutral place to position yourself in philosophical space. There's nowhere you can turn in which you believe absolutely nothing and therefore don't take on some burden of proof about the position you hold. Everyone has to believe something. Even what appears to be a rejection of all beliefs is a belief. Everyone holds something to be true. Maybe your truth is that nothing else is true, but that is something you believe. Even agnostics and atheists have faith. Atheists believe there is no god (while not being able to prove as much) and agnostics believe that it is not possible to know things about God (while not being able to prove as much).


There are different meanings to the word 'belief'. I 'believe' there is no God, like I 'believe' that gravity will continue to work tomorrow. Some beliefs are based on fact, some are based on experience, and some on neither.

[smeagol]

Your opinion is certainly welcome, and I'm not going to argue with you about it, but I think it's interesting what you posted above, because Earth didn't look anything like it looks like today many million years ago, before there was life in it.

Your statement does not contradict mine, that there is a plan and a Planner.

[I Love Me Some Me]

There are different meanings to the word 'belief'. I 'believe' there is no God, like I 'believe' that gravity will continue to work tomorrow. Some beliefs are based on fact, some are based on experience, and some on neither.

I would say that if it is based on fact, it is no longer a belief but rather is now knowledge.

If it is not based on proven fact, it is a belief.

i.e. -

I know that gravity will continue to work...I believe the earth was created by natual causes.

[LnGrrrR]

I would say that if it is based on fact, it is no longer a belief but rather is now knowledge.

If it is not based on proven fact, it is a belief.

i.e. -

I know that gravity will continue to work...I believe the earth was created by natual causes.

Technically, it's the THEORY of gravity.

You could say it is a FACT that gravity exists, but you do not know for sure that gravity will continue to work as it does tomorrow. You believe it will, based on the fact that it has continued to exist for quite a long time.

Beliefs can be based on facts, as well. For instance, before the election, I BELIEVED Obama would win, due to the results of certain polls, which are FACTS.

[I Love Me Some Me]

Technically, it's the THEORY of gravity.

You could say it is a FACT that gravity exists, but you do not know for sure that gravity will continue to work as it does tomorrow. You believe it will, based on the fact that it has continued to exist for quite a long time.

Beliefs can be based on facts, as well. For instance, before the election, I BELIEVED Obama would win, due to the results of certain polls, which are FACTS.

Yes, but you did not KNOW that Obama would win. Your belief was based on good evidence, but you did not have knowledge that he was going to win. The polls were evidence that led us to believe he would win, but they did not provide us with the knowledge that he had won before the election even took place.

:lol

this is kinda funny. :rollin

[baseline bum]

it sounds like youre more of a nihilist.

I would never consider myself a nihilist. As I know it, a nihilist thinks there is no order to the world, no sense of justice, and no reason that anyone would be born with one. Nihilism seems more consistent with the religious side that claims altruism is a learned behavior rather than something naturally selected.

[baseline bum]

Yet God can spontaneously create himself? A being with the power to know all, do all, and yet he cares about us intricately?

It sound like you're making Dawkins' argument, that a god created from no order is like jumping a sheer cliff on the side of a mountain in one bound as opposed to any intelligent life being a slow progression like a hike up the side of the mountain.

[LnGrrrR]

Yes, but you did not KNOW that Obama would win. Your belief was based on good evidence, but you did not have knowledge that he was going to win. The polls were evidence that led us to believe he would win, but they did not provide us with the knowledge that he had won before the election even took place.

:lol

this is kinda funny. :rollin

And my lack of evidence for any god explains my lack of belief for any god. While there obviously IS some evidence (Bible, testimony), it does not pass the 'sniff' test for me. It does for others obviously. :)

[byrontx]

Why does everyone assume that God, or in the case of an agnostic-maybe god, has to be perfect.

I think our god could be a fuck-up. Maybe the big bang was was an Oh Shit moment. Maybe the reason the world is pretty screwed up-babies born with cancer and stuff like that is because our god just did not get it right. As gods-in-training are we getting a terrible education or, having seen how badly god messed up are we like an alcoholics teetotaler son, going to be determined to get it right when its our turn?

Oh well, you see a pretty sunset and you think, "he/she does get some things right-maybe there's some hope for 'em."

Now if he/she could just get us an athletic big.

[ElNono]

Your statement does not contradict mine, that there is a plan and a Planner.

Correct. I'm also not against the idea that there's a plan or a planner. Certainly a possibility. Except that I'm against the idea that whoever that planner or planners might be are a supernatural entity.