Official "Mavs Fans That Hated On Avery, Time To Own Up" Thread

[monosylab1k]

Avery was right. This was not a playoff team. This was (and is) a shitty basketball team with zero heart. I think maybe Avery was the thing pushing them to be as good as they were, and the team, lazy shits that they are, got tired of being pushed. Now they've got a coach pampering them, and they're responding with zero effort.

I'll be the first to admit it - I was 100% wrong about Avery.

[Matchman]

Avery was coaching the same way that Greg Popovich, Doc Rivers, Pat Railey, and Larry Brown were coaching: Defense first, controlled offense second. that is one of the most retarded firings in recent NBA history.

[monosylab1k]

Own up, Mavs fans. Avery was right, we all were wrong.

We should have known from the get-go that if we were siding with Cuban and Donnie, we were on the losing side of the issue.

[ShoogarBear]

Rick Carlisle, LOL.

[Trainwreck2100]

Avery taught D but his O sets left alot to be admired....................unless you like isos,

[monosylab1k]

Avery was coaching the same way that Greg Popovich, Doc Rivers, Pat Railey, and Larry Brown were coaching: Defense first, controlled offense second. that is one of the most retarded firings in recent NBA history.

At the time it really really seemed like Avery was choking the life out of the team.....turns out, he was squeezing what little life was left in a team with no heart.....and the lazy asses on the team resented him for getting the best out of him.

Cuban, with his man-crush for his players, sided with them.

[ShoogarBear]

Thats what you call maning up.

Maning up?

http://www.halloweencostumes4u.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000003/1210.jpg

[ShoogarBear]

Avery taught D but his O sets left alot to be admired....................unless you like isos,

Before they got Kidd, isos made the most sense.

After Kidd, they ran a lot fewer isos.

[Trainwreck2100]

I bet Avery is laughing his ass off. He did everything he could to prepare his team. They just didnt respond. The Mavs trashed his name so bad no one even offered him a job. Houston or Denver should calling Avery right now.

Nobody offered him a job cause he wouldn't take it, he gets a shitload of money for doing absolutely nothing. He makes more money staying at home then any team would offer him

[ShoogarBear]

Anyway, Dallas will get a lot better than they are now. But Avery was a pretty damn good coach.

[Tmac&Luther]

I bet Avery is laughing his ass off. He did everything he could to prepare his team. They just didnt respond. The Mavs trashed his name so bad no one even offered him a job. Houston or Denver should calling Avery right now.

Houston doesn't need a coach. :wtf

[Obstructed_View]

Avery was good, but he lost the team, and I think he sacrificed some of his identity just for a job. At some point he has to bear blame for that. Realilstically, there has to be some additional blame for an owner that's so accessible that players violate the chain of command to complain to him. After watching tonight's game, it's shocking how little heart this group seems to have.

[sribb43]

Avery wore out his welcome but the team has many more problems than just Avery, They want us to believe it was just Avery but it was alot deeper than that

[Tmac&Luther]

The problem in Dallas starts at the top..........Avery doesn't have any blame to take, because he constantly had a owner that underminded him, which made it impossible to get his players' respect.

I always laughed when ESPN would talk about how great of a owner Mark Cuban was and suck up to him, because I knew this day would come. I mean everything worked great with Nellie, because Mark couldn't fuck with Nellie.........Nellie is a proven HOF type coach.

Mark Cuban is the Jerry Jones of the NBA..........both owners can't stay out of their own way, both owners end up fucking up both of their teams in the long run, and it's absolutely amazing that both of these owners own teams in the same damn city.........what are the fucking odds of that? :lol

[monosylab1k]

Avery wore out his welcome but the team has many more problems than just Avery, They want us to believe it was just Avery but it was alot deeper than that

Did Avery wear out his welcome, or did his insistence on pushing the team to play their best cause the lazy players to resent him?

Just like it's alot easier to throw up a fadeaway than it is to take a beating going to the rim, it's alot easier to just say "this coach is an asshole, get rid of him" than it is to keep buying into his system.

[sribb43]

Did Avery wear out his welcome, or did his insistence on pushing the team to play their best cause the lazy players to resent him?

Just like it's alot easier to throw up a fadeaway than it is to take a beating going to the rim, it's alot easier to just say "this coach is an asshole, get rid of him" than it is to keep buying into his system.

Fuck it who cares this team was doomed with or without Avery and I dont see him as the kind of guy to run a team thats trying to rebuild with a bunch of young guys bc im sure he would bring back Kevin Willis and start him at center

[Tmac&Luther]

The hell they dont.

Yeah they don't........In Adelman's first season he only coached Houston to the second longest winning streak in NBA history without arguably their best player.

8 games into the season where we're 5-3 I'd say it's a little early to pull the plug. :rolleyes

I mean do you know how stupid Morey would look if he fired Adelman.....Morey would never get another GM job again and would be a complete laughing stock. :lol But hey I guess this is why you're posting on a board and not working in somebody's front office.

[monosylab1k]

Fuck it who cares this team was doomed with or without Avery and I dont see him as the kind of guy to run a team thats trying to rebuild with a bunch of young guys bc im sure he would bring back Kevin Willis and start him at center

I'd put alot more faith in Avery inspiring a team of youngsters than I would Rick Carlisle. If Avery was committed to rebuilding the team I bet he'd do a great job at it.

As pointed out many times already, the problem is Cuban. He'd rather die than admit he was wrong and blow this team up.

[Tmac&Luther]

Dont get your hopes high this year...:lol

Oh so every team that doesn't win this year needs to fire their coach huh. :lol

Your logic makes no damn sense, but I realize your lack of respect for Adelman's coaching goes back to the Sac/LA rivalry days......so honestly it doesn't bother me, just alot of hot air.

[dirk4mvp]

Oh so every team that doesn't win this year needs to fire their coach huh. :lol

Your logic makes no damn sense, but I realize your lack of respect for Adelman's coaching goes back to the Sac/LA rivalry days......so honestly it doesn't bother me, just alot of hot air.


What makes you think he's been a laker fan that long?

[dirk4mvp]

The Rockets have some tough mided players, and they need a tough minded coach... like Avery.

Yao and T-Back are two of the weakest minded star players in the league.

[dirk4mvp]

From what, a 7 point loss?

[monosylab1k]

From what, a 7 point loss?

Take away the first 5 minutes or so of the game, and it was a 26 point blowout.

[dirk4mvp]

:jack

[sribb43]

Take away the first 5 minutes or so of the game, and it was a 26 point blowout.

A positive from tonight.....The Mavs finally outscored a team in the 4th (21-20) and werent outplayed

Cant forget about Damp another monster game too bad it was wasted bc Dirk played like a pussy again

[Tmac&Luther]

What makes you think he's been a laker fan that long?

Every Laker fan I have ever met that has tried to talk crap about Adelman did so because of when he was a coach at Sac.

[mavsfan1000]

So since Carlisle sucks, that means Avery is good? I think they both are horrible in game coaches. Thus why they were available.

[Tmac&Luther]

I never said that. I think certain players respond to certain types of coaches... obviously! The Rockets have some tough mided players, and they need a tough minded coach... like Avery. You of all people should understand what Im talking about. That 22 game win streak didnt mean anything when they got to the playoffs did it?

All Im saying is if you got a great team, get a great coach. The Suns waited too long to realize that, now they hung themselves with Porter.

In the playoffs the court shrinks to a half court and they missed their big guy.

also since when did Avery become "a great coach"........last a checked the man blew a 3-1 Finals lead...and became the first head coach to lose to a 8th seeded team. Avery is a quality coach but he hasn't done anything to be thrown into the "great coach" catagory yet.....I'm fine with Adelman.

[z0sa]

The biggest mistake Avery ever made was changing the starting lineup before th GS series - should have stuck to their guns. It made him look weak and foolish and is the biggest reason he fell out of sync with his players.

[icem]

been saying it all along... avery coming in and cutting out that run and gun BS is what got that team to the next level.

the offense was fine IMO. then they had the starting lineup of terry, harris, howard, dirk, and damp or diop, that is 4 guys that can score in bunches all in different ways. they created tons of mismatch problems for just about every team in the league. it wasn't the offense, it was mental breakdowns that cost them IMO. and that is not avery's fault.

i think they were ready to make another run after their finals appearance but just happen to run into the one team that gave THEM tons of matchup problems and that was pretty much the end because they just didn't have any heart left and probably did need some kind of change, but trading harris was not it. firing avery wasn't either.

[jonnybravo]

Every Laker fan I have ever met that has tried to talk crap about Adelman did so because of when he was a coach at Sac.

I think ADelman is a solid coach.

One thing that hasn't revealed itself is his penchant for incessant whining. It was to such a degree in both in Portland and Sacramento that his player developed the EXACT same behaviour for crying (see D'antoni in Phoenix...identical phenomenon). Hell, I know Portland fans who called their own boy, "Cried" Drexler.

He seems MUCH more mellow in Houston these days which I think is a good thing.

[Findog]

This team needs to be broken up. It's not like the Mavs don't have talent. Not as much as LA, Boston, New Orleans, a healthy Houston or Utah, the class of the league. But it's a team that has enough on paper that you figure them to win at least 45 and make the playoffs.

That said, firing Avery was not a mistake. Part of the reason we're here is that he begged Cuban to make the trade for Kidd,and then quickly washed his hands of trying to make it work once he got here. I don't think Devin is ever going to be the stud that Deron or CP3 is, but he was a useful player, he was 11 years younger, and he had a reasonable contract. Those are not assets you give away. Avery did grind the team down, and that should and will cost a coach his job when he can't communicate effectively or impose his will on his team.

The main problem is that Dirk isn't effective right now and the talent around him has had its warranty expire. Stackhouse was a useful player in the 06 Finals run. Now he's got another 3 years of wear and tear on his legs and he's a bum. Diop never developed an offensive game. Dampier is the same as he ever was, a guy who frustrates you with his occasional moments of great play followed by long stretches of suckage. Josh has just completely fallen apart, a guy who was a legitimate #2 on a title-contending team to a #3 or #4 chucker on a mediocre team. I would definitely take an Al Harrington or a Mike Miller over Josh now, and there was a time where he was a legitimate 2-way stud. Jason Terry, like Stack, has had another 3 years on his legs. The team hasn't had a solid creator from the 2-guard spot since Michael Finley was waived. They got by at times with Adrian Griffin or going with a small-ball lineup of Devin and Jet, but with Josh's regression, Dirk doesn't have a second scoring threat to take the pressure and focus of defenses off of him. He's sucking right now, but he's in much the same situation Kobe was in during the post/Shaq, pre-Gasol era: keep him from going off and his teammates can't beat you. Kidd has actually been pretty good this year, but he's much more effective running up-tempo with other elite wings and forwards, as opposed to swinging the ball to the open man to brick a jumper with the Mavericks.

Had they been able to finish Miami off, they would've been the first really perimeter-oriented team since the Sonics or the Walt Frazier Knicks to win as mainly a jumpshooting team. I's amazing they got as far as they did in 06, but they had just enough rebounding, interior defense and points in the paint to make it to the Finals. But the way the team is put together now is just too much paper and not enough rocks or scissors.

Not only has the talent level and the athleticism of the team waned a bit, but it's clear that they were permanently affected by the twin traumas of Miami and Golden State. You can't put that all on Dirk, or all on Avery, or throw the rest of the supporting cast under the bus to protect Dirk or Avery. It's a collective thing, and the owner I think plays a role in that, in the sense that although he is financially and emotionally committed to winning, but he's a Jerry Jones/Steinbrenner-esque meddler. This is like a hit song that is still on heavy rotation but you're sick of it by now. The output on the court is less than the sum of the parts. I think every one of these guys would probably thrive in a new situation, or at least see their own levels of production increase. There's just a lot of bad psychology/emotion/chemisty/voodoo, whatever you want to call it, in Dallas. You can either pull a Florida Marlins and trade Dirk to tank for the next 2-3 years, or you can just send out every last bit of shit sans Dirk and see what you can get new to put alongside him. Personally, this thing is fucked either way, so I'd rather see Dirk, Kidd + to be determined. I only move Dirk if you can get your own Al Jefferson-type upcoming stud.

[Findog]

I mean, how hard is it to get a 2-guard that can attack the basket? We have Gerald Green now, but there's still about 25-30 guards in this league that are better than him. Perimeter players that can get 15-20 are a dime a dozen in this league, but there's only one Kobe, one CP3, one Paul Pierce, one LeBron, etc. Dallas hasn't had even a mediocre shooting guard since Finley left. The best option they ever had was in 06 when they had Adrian Griffin, who was basically the Trent Dilfer of shooting guards - don't fuck things up, stay the fuck out of the way. If we're going to keep Dirk, then let's get somebody who can play off of him. Kidd can't shoot.

[Findog]

Devin and Josh together played well off of Dirk. I'm not one of those revisionist "Oh, we would've eventually won a title with Dirk, Devin and Josh" delusional groupies, but that team was constructed better.

[dirk4mvp]

He doesnt get it. He found a bright spot in being up 19, go down by 16, and losing by 7.

Not to mention the TNT crew are laughing their asses off at the Mavs. They think the Warriors are better than the Mavs. But I dont expect a guy who was watching Dancing With the Stars voting for his teams owner to understand sports that much...:lol


Aw somebody's laughing at the Mavericks :cry

You've been a laker fan since the gasol trade, faggot.

[dirk4mvp]

He doesnt get it. He found a bright spot in being up 19, go down by 16, and losing by 7.

Not to mention the TNT crew are laughing their asses off at the Mavs. They think the Warriors are better than the Mavs. But I dont expect a guy who was watching Dancing With the Stars voting for his teams owner to understand sports that much...:lol


That ass still sore...:lol


I've posted my obvious bitterness over that game by deciding which nutritional foods to eat next.

[Tmac&Luther]

This team needs to be broken up. It's not like the Mavs don't have talent. Not as much as LA, Boston, New Orleans, a healthy Houston or Utah, the class of the league. But it's a team that has enough on paper that you figure them to win at least 45 and make the playoffs.

That said, firing Avery was not a mistake. Part of the reason we're here is that he begged Cuban to make the trade for Kidd,and then quickly washed his hands of trying to make it work once he got here. I don't think Devin is ever going to be the stud that Deron or CP3 is, but he was a useful player, he was 11 years younger, and he had a reasonable contract. Those are not assets you give away. Avery did grind the team down, and that should and will cost a coach his job when he can't communicate effectively or impose his will on his team.

The main problem is that Dirk isn't effective right now and the talent around him has had its warranty expire. Stackhouse was a useful player in the 06 Finals run. Now he's got another 3 years of wear and tear on his legs and he's a bum. Diop never developed an offensive game. Dampier is the same as he ever was, a guy who frustrates you with his occasional moments of great play followed by long stretches of suckage. Josh has just completely fallen apart, a guy who was a legitimate #2 on a title-contending team to a #3 or #4 chucker on a mediocre team. I would definitely take an Al Harrington or a Mike Miller over Josh now, and there was a time where he was a legitimate 2-way stud. Jason Terry, like Stack, has had another 3 years on his legs. The team hasn't had a solid creator from the 2-guard spot since Michael Finley was waived. They got by at times with Adrian Griffin or going with a small-ball lineup of Devin and Jet, but with Josh's regression, Dirk doesn't have a second scoring threat to take the pressure and focus of defenses off of him. He's sucking right now, but he's in much the same situation Kobe was in during the post/Shaq, pre-Gasol era: keep him from going off and his teammates can't beat you. Kidd has actually been pretty good this year, but he's much more effective running up-tempo with other elite wings and forwards, as opposed to swinging the ball to the open man to brick a jumper with the Mavericks.

Had they been able to finish Miami off, they would've been the first really perimeter-oriented team since the Sonics or the Walt Frazier Knicks to win as mainly a jumpshooting team. I's amazing they got as far as they did in 06, but they had just enough rebounding, interior defense and points in the paint to make it to the Finals. But the way the team is put together now is just too much paper and not enough rocks or scissors.

Not only has the talent level and the athleticism of the team waned a bit, but it's clear that they were permanently affected by the twin traumas of Miami and Golden State. You can't put that all on Dirk, or all on Avery, or throw the rest of the supporting cast under the bus to protect Dirk or Avery. It's a collective thing, and the owner I think plays a role in that, in the sense that although he is financially and emotionally committed to winning, but he's a Jerry Jones/Steinbrenner-esque meddler. This is like a hit song that is still on heavy rotation but you're sick of it by now. The output on the court is less than the sum of the parts. I think every one of these guys would probably thrive in a new situation, or at least see their own levels of production increase. There's just a lot of bad psychology/emotion/chemisty/voodoo, whatever you want to call it, in Dallas. You can either pull a Florida Marlins and trade Dirk to tank for the next 2-3 years, or you can just send out every last bit of shit sans Dirk and see what you can get new to put alongside him. Personally, this thing is fucked either way, so I'd rather see Dirk, Kidd + to be determined. I only move Dirk if you can get your own Al Jefferson-type upcoming stud.

That's funny a strictly remember a interview he did where he said he was strongly against the trade and wanted to keep Harris.

[TheMadHatter]

I just feel so bad for Maverick fans.

What Marc Cuban is doing is a disgrace to basketball. The Mavs are a rotting corpse, they have little to no developing young talent and a bunch of wornout veterans. The team has no identity or purpose, they are stuck in basketball purgatory. The writing was on the wall last season, any smart and reasonable owner would have recognized that and began the painful rebuilding process.

If Maverick fans have any sense or desire to see their team successful again they will realize that Marc Cuban is a cancer to their team. You cannot have an owner so intricately involved in the day-to-day affairs of the team. Look at the Lakers, Jerry Buss stays the fuck out of Phil Jackson's way.....in fact you only hear about him when he gets pulled over for DUI's or when he's fucking twenty year old strippers at the Playboy Mansion.

The team needs to be completely gutted. Keep Dirk, Damp, Terry, Gerald Green and jettison the rest of that hot garbage.

[mffl89]

Trading Devin Harris was the beginning of the bad times for Dallas. I admit that I wanted Avery out because of his lack of an offensive mind but then he did bring out the most in the team.

Dirk is starting to bug me with his suckage and lack of rebounding. Damp is showing more heart than Dirk.
I'm a fan of Mark Cuban but that's starting to grow thin too. Please get Lebron to Dallas.

[RsxPiimp]

i just love how some mavs fans were grilling AJ and defending the Kidd trade just a few weeks ago


now this

2-6

:lol

[angelbelow]

cubans got deep pockets but he doesnt have very good basketball knowledge.

[Tag]

Oh so every team that doesn't win this year needs to fire their coach huh. :lol

Your logic makes no damn sense, but I realize your lack of respect for Adelman's coaching goes back to the Sac/LA rivalry days......so honestly it doesn't bother me, just alot of hot air.

Way to lower your expectations. You're right, a mediocre coach for a mediocre team. It's not as if we're expecting the rockets to get out of the first round or anything :lol . I can already name 4 teams in the west that are better then you guys and will send you back with your tail between your legs. You're better off with Avery.

[Pero]

In the playoffs the court shrinks to a half court and they missed their big guy.

also since when did Avery become "a great coach"........last a checked the man blew a 3-1 Finals lead...and became the first head coach to lose to a 8th seeded team.

Uh, I don't think so. George Karl, and whoever the Knicks eliminated at least.

[Findog]

That's funny a strictly remember a interview he did where he said he was strongly against the trade and wanted to keep Harris.

Avery is a liar.

[Shank]

It was time to Avery to go. The team had tuned him out and by then, it was pretty much over. He's not a long-term, "legacy"-type coach like Popovich, Jackson or Sloane. Same thing happened in Phoenix - it was just time for D'Antoni to go. It wasn't going to work there.

[stretch]

lol, knee jerk fans

gotta love em!







fuck knee jerk fans.

[monosylab1k]

It was time to Avery to go. The team had tuned him out

So I'm guessing 8 games into this season, the team has tuned out Carlisle too.

Like I said before, was it Avery being overly controlling? Or was it the team, with their lazy, defeatist attitude, that decided they didn't want to be pushed anymore. That they'd rather be in their comfortable little world of jump shots and half-assing everything.

I'm thinking that the problem wasn't Avery, the problem is THE TEAM.

[monosylab1k]

lol, knee jerk fans

gotta love em!







fuck knee jerk fans.

fuck any fans who want to be blind to what a lackluster sack of shit the Mavericks are.

[monosylab1k]

Avery is a liar.

Avery absolutely lied about the Kidd/Harris trade. He absolutely got outcoached in the Miami and GS series. But I still have nobody that's answered this question - was Avery being overly harsh and a dictator, or was he trying to push the team like he always has, and the team simply quit and decided they didn't want Avery pushing them anymore?

Because the team has quit on Carlisle 8 games into this season, and he certainly hasn't acted like the Lil' Dictator that Avery was.

[sribb43]

lol, knee jerk fans

gotta love em!







fuck knee jerk fans.


I will always be a fan no matter what team they roll out there but to think this is 06-07 and this team will turn it around and roll off 37 wins in 40 games is ridiculous.

They arent a good team and a team that rely's on jumpshots and plays no D is doomed. Ever wonder why the mavs cant hold leads is bc the jumpers stop falling, the D is non-existent and team make there runs off that

[Shank]

So I'm guessing 8 games into this season, the team has tuned out Carlisle too.

Like I said before, was it Avery being overly controlling? Or was it the team, with their lazy, defeatist attitude, that decided they didn't want to be pushed anymore. That they'd rather be in their comfortable little world of jump shots and half-assing everything.

I'm thinking that the problem wasn't Avery, the problem is THE TEAM.

It's clearly both. And a lot of it had to do with what Dirk wanted. He wanted Avery gone and he obviously got his wish. When Dirk wants something, he tells Cuban and it's done. See: Avery firing.

But, hey, it's a bad group of guys. They hold onto this thinking that they can still rebuild some of the glory from the 2006 run. It's obvious that will never happen, yet they insist on bringing back the same-old rehashes. It's quite likely that they'd still be 2-6 right now, even with Avery coaching. We'd certainly never get to see Gerald Green play a lick if he were still here.

Though it's always been a "player's league", a lot of the blame goes to Donnie and Cuban for choosing these players. JJ Barea? Are you shitting me? Who gives that sort of money and commitment to a guy that a) can't get off the bench and b) would be on the streets if the Mavs didn't sign him. Bringing back Devean George, Stackhouse, not finding a decent 2-guard, investing money in centers that are afraid of the hoop, thinking Jason Terry is the solution, etc., etc., etc.

It's hard to say "blow it up", because a fire sale wouldn't help anything right now. Cuban is smart enough (I hope) to look at this as a business (which it obviously is) and one that ultimately effects his own pocket book. Instead of "blowing it up" outright, they need to make smart moves that will both help the team improve and keep butts in the seats of the AAC. If they just start shipping guys out for nothing, the entire franchise will go to shit in a hurry and Cuban will bleed cash from this investment. But they do need new blood, new excitement added to this roster. I would hope that Donnie is cranking away on something like this right now, but we all know he's just a lame fuckstick that talks a big game but never produces.

You keep Dirk (unless they're just blown away from something HUGE - ie, Bosh, Aldridge and a package, Beasley, etc.), Kidd (again - same situation), Green and Dampier (unless...) and work to shape up the rest. It's possible to change things almost overnight. Look at the Celtics. In a manner of months, they went from cellar-dwellars to the top of the heap. But the Mavs insist on building their team as though they were the Rangers, by building up their own sort of farm system and promoting from within. It's shit and it's obvious it doesn't work.

Fat Joe left Atlantic.

[Indazone]

Carlisle used to be a control freak in Indiana. He had the players against him there and he used to preach defense and JVG type basketball. Suprised to see him trying out D'Antoni style B-Ball. It won't last. Carlisle is going to go back to the old Carlisle within 3 games.

[monosylab1k]

It's clearly both. And a lot of it had to do with what Dirk wanted. He wanted Avery gone and he obviously got his wish. When Dirk wants something, he tells Cuban and it's done. See: Avery firing.

So how is Dirk calling the shots for the entire organization? He can't even call the shots among the guys on what is supposedly "his" team.

All I know is Avery said "this isn't a playoff team without serious retooling". It sounded like sour grapes at the time, but it turns out he was just telling it like it is.

Meanwhile Donnie, Mark, and Dirk said "we just need to get rid of Avery".

It's pretty obvious which side was right and which side was wrong here. And if Avery was committed to a rebuild, I'd have to believe his fire and passion would be much more valuable than Carlisle's style (whatever that is).

[bdictjames]

I've always been a fan of Avery the coach. That was what I thought; these players were too lazy to be pushed by Avery. It all starts from the top, and if I thought that Mark Cuban would be more supportive of Avery then we still would have a championship contending Mavs team. Just like Holt supports Pop, the front office should support each other.

And I do think that Avery was strongly against trading Harris away for Kidd, and he was right.

Hope the Mavs get him back, I cant stand him reading from cue cards acting all fake on ESPN.

[Findog]

Avery absolutely lied about the Kidd/Harris trade. He absolutely got outcoached in the Miami and GS series. But I still have nobody that's answered this question - was Avery being overly harsh and a dictator, or was he trying to push the team like he always has, and the team simply quit and decided they didn't want Avery pushing them anymore?

Because the team has quit on Carlisle 8 games into this season, and he certainly hasn't acted like the Lil' Dictator that Avery was.

Avery lost the confidence of the team because of how he coached in the Miami/GS series. He banished Del Harris to the luxury suites because he was the Coach of the Year and had the best winning % or whatever for somebody after only 200 games and he didn't need his training wheels anymore. This team has problems way beyond Avery but he coached himself out of a job here.

[Findog]

And I do think that Avery was strongly against trading Harris away for Kidd, and he was right.


What you think is not factually correct. He gave up on Harris early last season and begged Cuban to get him Kidd. He began backing away from that stance during the period of limbo when the trade initially fell apart and it wasn't clear whether or not it would go through. Avery was the main engine behind the acquisition of Kidd.

[monosylab1k]

And I do think that Avery was strongly against trading Harris away for Kidd, and he was right.

You are wrong here. Avery was completely in favor of getting Harris out of town. Avery made a lot of true statements after getting fired, but his stance on the Kidd/Harris trade is a flat out lie. He absolutely wanted Harris traded.

[monosylab1k]

Avery lost the confidence of the team because of how he coached in the Miami/GS series. He banished Del Harris to the luxury suites because he was the Coach of the Year and had the best winning % or whatever for somebody after only 200 games and he didn't need his training wheels anymore. This team has problems way beyond Avery but he coached himself out of a job here.

So he has a big ego....so does Phil Jackson, so does Pat Riley, so does Nellie.

The problem is that the players didn't want Avery telling them what to do anymore, and they had an open channel to whine to Cuban about it. Cuban, who would rather be buddies with his players than their boss, defended them and unfairly cast all the blame at Avery's feet.

[Findog]

So he has a big ego....so does Phil Jackson, so does Pat Riley, so does Nellie.

His ego isn't why he's gone.


The problem is that the players didn't want Avery telling them what to do anymore, and they had an open channel to whine to Cuban about it. Cuban, who would rather be buddies with his players than their boss, defended them and unfairly cast all the blame at Avery's feet.


It would be unfair to lay everything at Avery's feet. It would also be unfair to say that he was a saint and should've remained the coach. His relationship with Cuban was over, he poisoned the well with his players. I don't have a problem with a coach that is a taskmaster, but the guy was a freaking dictator. You don't have to call a play from the bench ON EVERY SINGLE POSSESSION when your point guard is Jason Kidd. Kidd is not the guy he was in his prime, but he knows how to fucking run a play and manage a game. He doesn't need Avery to hold his hand like he's in a youth rec league at the YMCA and this is the first time he's ever played basketball.

This team needed a major overhaul and it should've happened, but it should be Carlisle or whomever presiding over that new roster, not Avery.

[Shank]

This team needed a major overhaul and it should've happened, but it should be Carlisle or whomever presiding over that new roster, not Avery.

Right on. It was a situation where Cuban/Donnie said, "Hey, welcome to the team. These are the guys you'll be coaching. We chose them for you. Now go." Most of the time, doesn't a coach have some say in the guys he'd like to work with? Instead, they dished him off on a pile of crap. Carlisle is a good coach. He'd be 7-0 with that Lakers roster, too. In the NFL, you can get by if you have a better coach than you do players (Patriots, Dolphins, Titans), but in the NBA if you don't have the superstars, you don't have shit.

[monosylab1k]

His relationship with Cuban was over, he poisoned the well with his players. I don't have a problem with a coach that is a taskmaster, but the guy was a freaking dictator. You don't have to call a play from the bench ON EVERY SINGLE POSSESSION when your point guard is Jason Kidd. Kidd is not the guy he was in his prime, but he knows how to fucking run a play and manage a game. He doesn't need Avery to hold his hand like he's in a youth rec league at the YMCA and this is the first time he's ever played basketball.

This team needed a major overhaul and it should've happened, but it should be Carlisle or whomever presiding over that new roster, not Avery.

Cuban has a history of throwing his coaches under the bus, so let's not use Avery's relationship against Cuban as some sort of black mark on his resume. If anything, it speaks to any good character he may have that he stands up against Cuban.

And as far as "poisoning the well" with his players, I don't see it. Not with the way these guys started this season. This team is full of lazy, pissy little whiny fucks, and Avery was doing everything he could to motivate them. They didn't like it, so they cried to Cuban about how Avery was being too mean. So Cuban, wanting desperately to be their buddy, fires Avery and brings a cupcake in to "coach" them.

[monosylab1k]

Most of the time, doesn't a coach have some say in the guys he'd like to work with?

I'd say Carlisle had some of that input. Wasn't he the one that poo-poo'd the Howard for Artest deal? That worked out well.

Just like Cuban and Donnie and the entire team, Rick talks a good game ("I want a few assholes") but when he had a chance to get one of the biggest ballbusting assholes in the NBA, he pussed out like this entire organization does time after time.

[Shank]

I'd say Carlisle had some of that input. Wasn't he the one that poo-poo'd the Howard for Artest deal? That worked out well.

Just like Cuban and Donnie and the entire team, Rick talks a good game ("I want a few assholes") but when he had a chance to get one of the biggest ballbusting assholes in the NBA, he pussed out like this entire organization does time after time.

That may be one instance. But then - who's to say that they were really in it to begin with? Was this before or after Josh's anthem incident? After the bad playoff run, the slumping 2nd half of the season, the partying and the potsmoking - Josh's stock was probably at it's lowest ever. It's likely the Kings didn't want what the Mavs were offering.

But where was Carlisle's input on JJ Barea, Devean George, Desagana Diop? He didn't have any because he was the new guy coming in and Mark/Donnie (NKOTB?) made those poor decisions for him. I guarantee that, if the shackles are taken off, Rick would haul some asses out of Dallas and make some major moves.

[Findog]

Cuban has a history of throwing his coaches under the bus, so let's not use Avery's relationship against Cuban as some sort of black mark on his resume. If anything, it speaks to any good character he may have that he stands up against Cuban.

Cuban's an asshole, so is Avery, and so is Nellie. Nellie quit on the team because his mancrush went to Phoenix and he didn't have the heart to coach this roster anymore. I'm amused by this revisionist history of yours.


And as far as "poisoning the well" with his players, I don't see it. Not with the way these guys started this season. This team is full of lazy, pissy little whiny fucks, and Avery was doing everything he could to motivate them. They didn't like it, so they cried to Cuban about how Avery was being too mean. So Cuban, wanting desperately to be their buddy, fires Avery and brings a cupcake in to "coach" them.

I think they're like any group of players, they'd continue to buy what Avery was selling if they had any confidence in him. Jerry Sloan and Pop can ride their players, but Avery can't...not when he clenched his buttcheeks and slowed it down versus Miami when they should've run on the Heat, or when he decided to change the lineup of his 67-win team to "match up better" with the Warriors.

The team is just not very good. Stack and Terry are older, whereas Josh is the ultimate frontrunner, since he only plays hard when things are going well. Damp and Diop would be fine if their combined salary was $7 million a year, not $15.

[monosylab1k]

Cuban's an asshole, so is Avery, and so is Nellie. Nellie quit on the team because his mancrush went to Phoenix and he didn't have the heart to coach this roster anymore. I'm amused by this revisionist history of yours.

Where's the revisionist history? I said Cuban has a history of clashing with his coaches and throwing them under the bus. Please point me to where I've revised history here.

[monosylab1k]

I think they're like any group of players, they'd continue to buy what Avery was selling if they had any confidence in him. Jerry Sloan and Pop can ride their players, but Avery can't...not when he clenched his buttcheeks and slowed it down versus Miami when they should've run on the Heat, or when he decided to change the lineup of his 67-win team to "match up better" with the Warriors.

The team is just not very good. Stack and Terry are older, whereas Josh is the ultimate frontrunner, since he only plays hard when things are going well. Damp and Diop would be fine if their combined salary was $7 million a year, not $15.

I just enjoy how when things went bad in the past, it was because the team had no confidence in Avery.....but this season now that Avery's gone, it's because "they just aren't that good".

Avery got outcoached in GS and Miami...but didn't you guys just get done telling me how it's a "players league"? So where were the players to step up? Dirk played like shit for half the Miami series and the entire GS series, but excuses keep getting made for him.

You guys seriously need to lay off the Cuban Kool-Aid. Just cuz Marky Mark tells you that Avery was the biggest prick alive and destroyed the team doesn't make it so. Did Avery have his faults and make his mistakes? Absolutely. But judging by the response of this team post-Avery, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that Avery wasn't the problem, and we may have fired one of the best coaches in the league just because he hurt Dirk's feelings.

[Findog]

Where's the revisionist history? I said Cuban has a history of clashing with his coaches and throwing them under the bus. Please point me to where I've revised history here.

He has TWO former head coaches. One that quit on the team, the other had the team quit on him. It's just as much the coach's fault as it is Cuban's that it didn't work out. You're going with an either/or approach when it comes to the blame game. It's a collective failure.

[Findog]

I just enjoy how when things went bad in the past, it was because the team had no confidence in Avery.....but this season now that Avery's gone, it's because "they just aren't that good".

To take one example, look at Stackhouse. He sucks now, but he certainly didn't during his first three years. He got old. What player left from 06 is playing at above the same level?




You guys seriously need to lay off the Cuban Kool-Aid. Just cuz Marky Mark tells you that Avery was the biggest prick alive and destroyed the team doesn't make it so.

Did I say Avery "destroyed the team?"



But judging by the response of this team post-Avery, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that Avery wasn't the problem, and we may have fired one of the best coaches in the league just because he hurt Dirk's feelings.


Avery was a problem, but he wasn't the only one. I don't see the contradiction. I'm glad Avery is gone, and at the same time, if I were the owner of another team, I would seriously consider hiring him.

[monosylab1k]

He has TWO former head coaches. One that quit on the team, the other had the team quit on him. It's just as much the coach's fault as it is Cuban's that it didn't work out. You're going with an either/or approach when it comes to the blame game. It's a collective failure.

Cuban & Nellie's relationship fell apart well before Nellie quit. Let's not forget how Cuban demanded that Dirk risk his career and play against the Spurs and Nellie stood up to him over it.

The difference between then and now is that when Cuban made shitty decisions, he had a guy with the balls to tell him to fuck off. Avery had that attitude, but at that point Cuban had propped Dirk up to such a high status that it neutered Avery of what power he did have.

Now that Cuban has nobody to stand up to him and he's surrounded by nothing but a bunch of dickless Yes Men, we're seeing just how quickly this thing is going down the shithole.

[SynicFan]

2 and 6.
its ONLY 8 games...
Jump into the Trinity, why dont you...

No, not every trade works out for the best...
but Cuban will make a trade to better the team...

write.that.down

[Shank]

You guys seriously need to lay off the Cuban Kool-Aid. Just cuz Marky Mark tells you that Avery was the biggest prick alive and destroyed the team doesn't make it so. Did Avery have his faults and make his mistakes? Absolutely. But judging by the response of this team post-Avery, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that Avery wasn't the problem, and we may have fired one of the best coaches in the league just because he hurt Dirk's feelings.

But if Avery was so great, why wasn't his name ever so much as mentioned for some of the other job vacancies around the league? And don't bring up the Cuban-payroll thing. If Avery was as wanted as everyone wants to believe, he would at least taken the time to meet with other franchises to discuss the possibilities. As it stood, the phone never rang. Instead, he opened a car dealership, hung out with the Spurs and decided to mushmouth his way around ESPN.

I liked the guy, so I'll put that out there. I really appreciated his time in Dallas. He did great things for this franchise and laid it all out. But he wasn't perfect, as we can all now see. It was just a situation where his effectiveness had worn off and it was time for him to go. It happens. Avery gets paid (twice) to sit at ESPN and make fun of his former team.

But answer this - who would you rather have right now? Avery or Dirk? It was one or the other. This season couldn't have gotten underway with both still in Dallas.

[Shank]

2 and 6.
its ONLY 8 games...
Jump into the Trinity, why dont you...

No, not every trade works out for the best...
but Cuban will make a trade to better the team...

write.that.down

I'd like to think that's true. Hell, the entire fanbase wishes for such. But there's not much in the past to give any indication that he'll make the right decisions for the future. Something has to fall in his lap for him to do something.

[Findog]

Cuban & Nellie's relationship fell apart well before Nellie quit. Let's not forget how Cuban demanded that Dirk risk his career and play against the Spurs and Nellie stood up to him over it.

Let's also not forget the fact that Nellie spent 50 games into the 04-05 season holding his dick and not bothering to coach the team, then Avery took over and they took off.

Cuban is proving himself to be another Jerry Jones or George Steinbrenner, but I'm not hopping aboard the "It was a tragic mistake to fire Avery" bandwagon

[Shank]

This is good, though. Nice, healthy conversation. I feel like we're bonding.

[Findog]

But answer this - who would you rather have right now? Avery or Dirk? It was one or the other. This season couldn't have gotten underway with both still in Dallas.

I'd rather have Dirk, easily, but I'll say this: He looks tired and ragged. He even seems thinner than he normally does. That might be attributable to his obligations to the German Olympic team.

[monosylab1k]

But answer this - who would you rather have right now? Avery or Dirk? It was one or the other. This season couldn't have gotten underway with both still in Dallas.

At the time I would have said Dirk. Now I say Avery. This team obviously needs to be blown up anyways, and I'd rather have a coach with passion to inspire a brand new team than a washed up Tonto in desperate need of a Lone Ranger to take the lead for him.

[Shank]

I'd rather have Dirk, easily, but I'll say this: He looks tired and ragged. He even seems thinner than he normally does. That might be attributable to his obligations to the German Olympic team.

He's starting to openly whine on the court. I saw it again last night when they put Singleton in for Dampier. The shoulders slumping, the half-ass play, the humming and sighing when talking to the media. He doesn't have it right now.

[SynicFan]

Avery is good to bring STRUCTURE to a team...

but not to manipulate X's and O's

[Shank]

I'd rather have Dirk, easily, but I'll say this: He looks tired and ragged. He even seems thinner than he normally does. That might be attributable to his obligations to the German Olympic team.

Eh, maybe on the German thing. Other guys played for their respective countries and seem to be doing just fine.

[Findog]

He's starting to openly whine on the court. I saw it again last night when they put Singleton in for Dampier. The shoulders slumping, the half-ass play, the humming and sighing when talking to the media. He doesn't have it right now.

Yeah, I think he's extremely frustrated. Something has to change, either a change of scenery for him or new teammates.

[Findog]

Eh, maybe on the German thing. Other guys played for their respective countries and seem to be doing just fine.

Well, he's not "Dirk" right now, for whatever reason.

[monosylab1k]

But if Avery was so great, why wasn't his name ever so much as mentioned for some of the other job vacancies around the league? And don't bring up the Cuban-payroll thing. If Avery was as wanted as everyone wants to believe, he would at least taken the time to meet with other franchises to discuss the possibilities. As it stood, the phone never rang. Instead, he opened a car dealership, hung out with the Spurs and decided to mushmouth his way around ESPN.

There's no doubt Avery, with his ego and personality, doesn't have a lot of friends around the league. It's still laughable when Spurs fans insist that he and Tim Duncan are BFF's.

But it doesn't make him a bad coach. And I'm not saying they made a huge mistake by firing him. I think in hindsight it was a mistake, yes, and he certainly had his faults....but after his firing he made the point that the team wasn't as good as their record indicated for 2 years straight (correct), and that the team wasn't a playoff team as currently constructed (also correct). That, along with the way the team is playing now, leads me to believe that Avery wasn't even 1/100th of the problem that Dirk/Cuban/Donnie made him out to be.

[Findog]

Hell, Cuban wouldnt even give up Dirk for Kobe. .

Neither would Jerry Buss give up Kobe for Dirk. That trade was never on the table. And Dirk isn't soft. He's playing like shit right now, but that doesn't make him soft.

[Findog]

Wow, you know things are bad when Tony Cubes stops blogging about youtube and hedge funds long enough for this:

http://blogmaverick.com/2008/11/14/i-hate-to-lose/


No question the start of the season has been a struggle for the Mavs and all of our fans. I guess the good news is that hopefully we are getting the bad part of the season out of the way at the beginning rather than during the end of the year, as we have the last several years.

I hate to lose, and we are going to do everything we can to get everyone on the same page so we can finish games the same way we have been starting them.

Thanks to all Mavs fans for hanging in there with us. I hate to lose games as much as you do, but the season is just starting. We have gone through struggles before, and Im sure we will go through them again. As will every team.

What seperates the Mavs from other teams is that we have great fans who have stuck with us through our entire history. My committement as always, is that Im going to make sure we do everything we possibly can to set things in the right direction.

MFFL

[Ghazi]

why you guys feed the trolls (mono, lakaluva)

Anywho, I wonder what's going on w/ Dirk right now. Is he pulling a Vince carter? :(

age? Olympic related fatigue? I dunno.

I'm not gonna knee jerk . If we lose to Orlando tonight, I'll be on the knee jerk bandwagon though.

Just enjoy the f'n games. Titles are hard to come by... 2006 was a lucky year for us even though the refs did us dirty.

Superduperstar theory... Titles come in bunches and usually with one of the SUPER SUPER Good players... Michael Jordan, Tim Duncan, Shaq... Sorry Dirk isn't as good as those players jeez.

Boston 08 and Detroit 04 are ensamble anomalies. Dallas 06 should've been one too, but ugh.

[Shank]

Blah, blah, blah...blogging. Quit blogging and fucking fix something.

[Findog]

why you guys feed the trolls (mono, lakaluva)

Anywho, I wonder what's going on w/ Dirk right now. Is he pulling a Vince carter? :(

age? Olympic related fatigue? I dunno.



If you go to the db.com boards, the prevailing theories are being physically and emotionally spent, in a good (Germany/Olympics) and a bad way (last three playoff exits), to something physical (he doesn't run the floor well and isn't getting much lift off of his left leg). Dirk is the type to play through injuries and not complain (Golden State series, coming back so soon from the high ankle sprain last year). But, yeah, he's "soft." Also, I think you're gonna see this with the guys who came into the league at 19, but Dirk has played 31,000 minutes in his NBA career. Jerry Stackhouse, who is several years older, has played 30,000. There's a lot of miles on those tires.

[monosylab1k]

why you guys feed the trolls (mono, lakaluva)

Anywho, I wonder what's going on w/ Dirk right now. Is he pulling a Vince carter? :(

age? Olympic related fatigue? I dunno.

I'm not gonna knee jerk . If we lose to Orlando tonight, I'll be on the knee jerk bandwagon though.

Just enjoy the f'n games. Titles are hard to come by... 2006 was a lucky year for us even though the refs did us dirty.

Superduperstar theory... Titles come in bunches and usually with one of the SUPER SUPER Good players... Michael Jordan, Tim Duncan, Shaq... Sorry Dirk isn't as good as those players jeez.

Boston 08 and Detroit 04 are ensamble anomalies. Dallas 06 should've been one too, but ugh.

I'm glad you're content with mediocrity. I'm not.

[Ghazi]

I'm not content with it... I'm vexed by what's going on right now.

But, it HAPPENS... we WERE near the top of the Western conference for so many years... it's approaching the time where we like EVERY other franchise have to start rebuilding. Look at the Jazz, Hornets, Celtics right now... 3 of the top teams in the NBA, were lottery teams just 3 years ago.

I'm sure you wouldn't be so upset about the NOW if we had taken care of business in 2006... but what's done is done, just gotta live with it.

What can we do at this point anyway? You got any ideas about turning around this mediocrity?

I for one think we can be a good team if we can click on all cylinders. It just seems like we're incapable of doing so... if Dirk has a good game, Howard/Damp/whoever will have a bad game. When Damp has a good game, Howard/Damp have a bad game. We need 3-4 players playing well at the same time but seem incapable of getting that kind of production. The last game where this happened was April 2008 v Golden State with Dirk, Kidd, Howard, and Terry having excellent games.

[monosylab1k]

What can we do at this point anyway? You got any ideas about turning around this mediocrity?

I've been saying to blow the team up for over a year now. Turns out I was right.


I for one think we can be a good team if we can click on all cylinders.

No team clicks on all cylinders all the time. Not even the Lakers. The good teams find ways to win even when they're not clicking on all cylinders. The bad teams quit like the Mavericks.

[Findog]

Dirk just needs to have sex with his sister and all will be fine. C'mon, has he not had the same career trajectory?

http://www.sensesofcinema.com/images/06/38/royal_tenenbaums2.jpg

[Ghazi]

I've been saying to blow the team up for over a year now. Turns out I was right.



No team clicks on all cylinders all the time. Not even the Lakers. The good teams find ways to win even when they're not clicking on all cylinders. The bad teams quit like the Mavericks.


Over a year now? "Over a year ago" we were coming off a 67 win season. I don't care if you get ousted in the first round, you do NOT blow up a 67 win team. You're closer to the Finals than you are to the lottery (we were than), so why ASSURE yourselves of the lottery by blowing the team up?

Revisionist history IMHO.

And that is true. The Lakers are better than us and one reason is Kobe can have a bad game and they can still win. If Dirk has a bad game, we're a bad team.

[monosylab1k]

Over a year now? "Over a year ago" we were coming off a 67 win season. I don't care if you get ousted in the first round, you do NOT blow up a 67 win team. You're closer to the Finals than you are to the lottery (we were than), so why ASSURE yourselves of the lottery by blowing the team up?

Revisionist history IMHO.

Ask any Mavs fan here. I was calling for it.

I couldn't give a fuck how many games they won....they were a first round flameout that showed very little heart and even less resiliency....the team showed all the tell-tale signs of a group that would never win a title back then.

And actual history shows that I was right about that. The 67 win first round losers are now a shitty team regardless. Should have been blown up back then.

[MWILL]

If Avery was a "good coach" can anyone please explain why he's
NOT coaching right now!

The last time I checked, (weather he agreed with the Kidd trade or not) Avery helped make this roster.

The only thing I agreed with is that these players are soft and that they need to make a trade for now, or for the future.

[Findog]

Avery's getting paid $12 million to sit on his ass for the next three years. He forfeits that if he gets a new coaching gig in that timeframe. He can make millions either way doing the stressful coaching thing, or sitting on his ass. I'm sure at some point he'll get the coaching bug again and forfeit the rest of what Cuban owes him, but I would be sitting at home too if I were him.

[MWILL]

2 and 6.
its ONLY 8 games...
Jump into the Trinity, why dont you...

No, not every trade works out for the best...
but Cuban will make a trade to better the team...

write.that.down


I agree with u on your last comment I strongly believe Cuban will make some kind of a trade.

After seeing these first 8 games, someone needs 2 go. They are doing the same stupid shit to lose games.

People are jumping off bridges because they have seen this for the past 2 post seasons and these first 8 games.

[sribb43]

http://blogmaverick.com/2008/11/14/i-hate-to-lose/


I Hate to Lose

Nov 14th 2008 10:48AM

No question the start of the season has been a struggle for the Mavs and all of our fans. I guess the good news is that hopefully we are getting the bad part of the season out of the way at the beginning rather than during the end of the year, as we have the last several years.

I hate to lose, and we are going to do everything we can to get everyone on the same page so we can finish games the same way we have been starting them.

Thanks to all Mavs fans for hanging in there with us. I hate to lose games as much as you do, but the season is just starting. We have gone through struggles before, and Im sure we will go through them again. As will every team.

What seperates the Mavs from other teams is that we have great fans who have stuck with us through our entire history. My committement as always, is that Im going to make sure we do everything we possibly can to set things in the right direction.

MFFL

[MWILL]

Avery's getting paid $12 million to sit on his ass for the next three years. He forfeits that if he gets a new coaching gig in that timeframe. He can make millions either way doing the stressful coaching thing, or sitting on his ass. I'm sure at some point he'll get the coaching bug again and forfeit the rest of what Cuban owes him, but I would be sitting at home too if I were him.


I understand that, but he had a interview with the Bulls during the offseason. And the Bulls declined because of his history with PG's. Steve Kerr GM and ex-teammate wouldn't give Avery the time of day. And here's the big one, coach Pop does not want Avery near his players.

There's something going on behind the scenes with Avery that we as fans don't know about.

[sribb43]

Vinny Del Negro > Avery :lmao

[Findog]

I understand that, but he had a interview with the Bulls during the offseason. And the Bulls declined because of his history with PG's. Steve Kerr GM and ex-teammate wouldn't give Avery the time of day. And here's the big one, coach Pop does not want Avery near his players.

There's something going on behind the scenes with Avery that we as fans don't know about.

Avery's a good coach, but he let his early success with the Mavs go to his head. Wouldn't let his assistants have any input, he had all the answers, etc...He'll be a great coach when he gets his ego in check.

[Ghazi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XW--IGAfeas


song for mavs fans at times like these :)

[MWILL]

Avery's a good coach, but he let his early success with the Mavs go to his head. Wouldn't let his assistants have any input, he had all the answers, etc...He'll be a great coach when he gets his ego in check.


Good point about how Avery treats his coaches. I forgot 2 mention that.

As far as his ego goes, I don't see that changing any time soon.

[dirk4mvp]

Hey at least Tony Kornheiser gave a 16% chance of turning it around on PTI!

[Obstructed_View]

I understand that, but he had a interview with the Bulls during the offseason. And the Bulls declined because of his history with PG's.
Wrong. Paxson postponed the interview with AJ because he wanted to try to get Mike D'Antoni, and then D'Antoni took the Knicks job and then AJ's agent didn't return Paxson's calls. I can't imagine why. :)


Steve Kerr GM and ex-teammate wouldn't give Avery the time of day.
There are tons of news reports on this site about how AJ and Kerr didn't like each other. Steve wasn't ever going to give AJ and interview, and it has nothing to do with his success as a coach.


And here's the big one, coach Pop does not want Avery near his players.
Which is why AJ spent time at camp in October and Pop said that he loved having him around.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/spurs/Spurs_Notebook_Little_General_surveys_camp.html


There's something going on behind the scenes with Avery that we as fans don't know about.

There's quite a bit going on in plain view that you as a fan don't seem to know about.

[MWILL]

Wrong. Paxson postponed the interview with AJ because he wanted to try to get Mike D'Antoni, and then D'Antoni took the Knicks job and then AJ's agent didn't return Paxson's calls. I can't imagine why.

That's true, but they didn't want Avery as the head coach because of how he treats his PG's. Can u imagine Avery with another ROOKIE PG! I can't.

Ask Devin Harris if he enjoyed Avery as a coach?

There are tons of news reports on this site about how AJ and Kerr didn't like each other. Steve wasn't ever going to give AJ and interview, and it has nothing to do with his success as a coach.

Did u ever stop to think why? Plus Avery's coaching style is predictable and he doesn't listen 2 his assistants.



Which is why AJ spent time at camp in October and Pop said that he loved having him around.

What the hell did u expect him to say in public.



There's quite a bit going on in plain view that you as a fan don't seem to know about.

Ditto to u.

[ShoogarBear]

Carlisle used to be a control freak in Indiana. He had the players against him there and he used to preach defense and JVG type basketball. Suprised to see him trying out D'Antoni style B-Ball. It won't last. Carlisle is going to go back to the old Carlisle within 3 games.

I don't know about "within 3 games", but I agree, the old Carlisle will probably have to come back. And the old Carlisle is not a hell of a lot different than Avery. Except even more controlling on offense.

That was why I was hysterical with laughter at the thought that Rick Carlisle would be the Agent of Change.

The Mavs are not as bad as they are playing now, and they will almost certainly start playing well enough to at least get Mav Fan down from the ledge.

Yeah, Avery had done all he could and it was time for him to move on. But he wasn't the problem.

The real revisionist history is people wishing they had Nelson back. Nellie had Dirk AND Nash AND Fin in his prime, and couldn't come close to doing what Avery did.

[Obstructed_View]

BTW, when is the official "Mavs Fans That Hated On Devin Harris, Time To Own Up" thread scheduled?

[Findog]

BTW, when is the official "Mavs Fans That Hated On Devin Harris, Time To Own Up" thread scheduled?

:lol

If you care, go look through the archives, I was screaming to anybody that would listen not to make that deal.

[sribb43]

Marquis Daniels line tonight....

17 points 10 rebs 3 assists

Quis for the season

15pts 6 reb 3 assists


but wait we would rather have Croshere and Anthony Johnson on this team

[ShoogarBear]

Yes, Daniels has been a nice pickup for the ole Fantasy team this year.

[monosylab1k]

Best part of the game tonight was how Jason Terry made Jameer Nelson look like Jason Terry circa 2005.

[Obstructed_View]

:lol

If you care, go look through the archives, I was screaming to anybody that would listen not to make that deal.


Please Donnie, don't trade for Kidd. Let's take our lumps and get Devin healthy.


The only issue I have with the trade is that it should've been done last summer or the coming offseason, instead of at the trading deadline.

[Findog]

If you were going to make the move at all, you do it in the offseason. That's all I was saying.

[Obstructed_View]

If you were going to make the move at all, you do it in the offseason. That's all I was saying.

I know, I'm just having some fun. You know you can't stay mad at Mark Cuban ;)

[peskypesky]

Avery was right. This was not a playoff team. This was (and is) a shitty basketball team with zero heart. I think maybe Avery was the thing pushing them to be as good as they were, and the team, lazy shits that they are, got tired of being pushed. Now they've got a coach pampering them, and they're responding with zero effort.

I'll be the first to admit it - I was 100% wrong about Avery.

:toast

Not many people around here have big enough balls to admit it when they're wrong.

I personally thought both the Kidd trade and the axing of Avery were blunders from the start. I think what the Mavs needed was pretty much what the Spurs have needed: a good center

But then again, that could be said about most of the teams in the league these days.

Sometimes, the coach IS the problem. Being a New Yorker, I know of what I'm speaking. Isaiah was a complete zero.

[Findog]

I know, I'm just having some fun. You know you can't stay mad at Mark Cuban ;)

He's a tender lover. :bang

[Obstructed_View]

That's true, but they didn't want Avery as the head coach because of how he treats his PG's. Can u imagine Avery with another ROOKIE PG! I can't.
There's no report of that anywhere outside your imagination. It just didn't happen. The Bulls pushed off AJ because they wanted D'Antoni and it bit them in the ass. Period. If you have information that none of the newspapers or television stations have, now's the time for the scoop.


Did u ever stop to think why?
Kerr didn't like AJ from when they played together. There was a power struggle and personality clashes. Teammates don't always like each other. It doesn't mean they aren't capable of doing their jobs. It certainly didn't have anything to do with AJ's qualifications as a coach any more than it has to do with Kerr's qualifications as a GM.


Plus Avery's coaching style is predictable and he doesn't listen 2 his assistants.
That's clearly your opinion. For facts, look at AJ's winning percentage. By the way, who has control over the hiring and firing of assistant coaches in Dallas? I don't think AJ made any changes when he took over Nellie's job. There were about a dozen assistant coaches at one point; one would be hard pressed to listen to all of them.


What the hell did u expect him to say in public.
Since nobody shows up at Spurs training camp without Pop's consent, how do you think AJ ended up there? Surely you aren't suggesting that AJ just barged in and Pop just went along with it. :lol

[ElNono]

AJ is not in the Spurs bench because the Spurs wouldn't pay him anywhere near what Cuban is paying him. Not to mention it would look like a step backwards for a guy that was a head coach, and coach of the year, to go back to the assistant role.
Furthermore, with every passing Dallas game where the players suck bollocks, I think the perception of Avery grows more positive. He'll get another shot at coaching sooner or later.

[Obstructed_View]

He's a tender lover. :bang

You probably wouldn't believe how hard that post made me laugh. Just caught me by surprise, I guess.

[Obstructed_View]

AJ is not in the Spurs bench because the Spurs wouldn't pay him anywhere near what Cuban is paying him. Not to mention it would look like a step backwards for a guy that was a head coach, and coach of the year, to go back to the assistant role.
Furthermore, with every passing Dallas game where the players suck bollocks, I think the perception of Avery grows more positive. He'll get another shot at coaching sooner or later.

I can hardly imagine Pop doing anything but telling AJ he'd be stupid not to take a cushy TV job until he deposits his last paycheck from the Mavs. It's not outside the realm of possibility that Pop will be ready to hang it up about that same time.

[MWILL]

Avery is not getting a head coaching job anytime soon (well, maybe 5 yrs from now)

The Triangle Of Trust
Avery Broke It, May Be Stabbing His Own Back
By Mike Fisher -- DB.com




Our story with David Lord on the “trust issue’’ (and how Avery broke it) is, with all due humility, dead-on, as it relates to the Mavs’ thinking on new head coach Rick Carlisle.

“He’s a quality person,’’ a Mavs staffer says. “He’s not perfect. But he’s not a back-stabber.’’

Hmmm. Wonder what that means? Do we need to say more?

OK. We will.

Showing incredible believe-it-or-not foresight, Mark Cuban and Avery Johnson talked this week about how they could part ways and avoid the mudslinging that continues to dirty the Cuban-Nellie breakup. We’ll paraphrase the conversation here: Cuban told Avery he’d give him his monster severance check ($12 mil-plus) but that he anticipated not having to pay it because Avery would get a new job, thus voiding the severance.

The conditions both agreed on, designed to help Avery keep his rep and to help Cuban keep his money: No parting shots. No under-the-bus throwing. No backstabbing. No lawsuits. Donnie – still enduring the agony of the acrimony between his dad and his boss, was part of the “Triangle of Trust’’ agreement as well.

“The idea,’’ says a Mavs source, “was that Avery could walk away saving face (while) letting the world think what they were going to think anyway, that it was all (the fault of) ‘that crazy Cuban.’ ‘Crazy Cuban’ is fine with Mark. He will take that bullet.

The source continues: “Cuban’s done his part. He hasn’t said a negative word. Donnie’s done his part, though he probably shouldn’t have even bothered mentioning that thing about ‘unanimous (decisions).’

“Meanwhile, look what Avery did.’’

We are told that Donnie is “quite upset’’ that Avery left town with some final jabs at Dirk Nowitzki and Jason Kidd.

From one locker-room confidante: “He turned on Kidd a while back. Not a big surprise. But why go after Dirk? How stupid is that? What did Dirk ever do wrong to Avery?’’

From one front-office confidante: “It’s not just the (backstabbing.) It’s the lying. It’s going to end up hurting Avery.’’

Hurting him how? As Avery Johnson searches for his next job, he will talk of his 194-70 record, he will talk of his religious faith, and he will say “I am a man of honesty and integrity.’’

And he will be fibbing. The potential employer won’t know he’s fibbing if he calls Cuban or Donnie; they plan to keep their promise – Donnie because he’s endured enough broken-relationship crap, Cuban because of the $12 mil.

But, says one Mavs staffer who is a ways down the totem pole: “We all know the truth. I hope (Avery’s next potential employer) doesn’t call me. I won’t know quite what to say.’’



102pm may 3 2008

[MWILL]

Funny story about Avery. Maybe you know about it, maybe not.

There's more stories like this at Dallasbasketball.com

http://www.dallasbasketball.com/fullArchiveColumn.php?id=832


Full-Frontal Avery
A Naked Truth About Teams' Disinterest
By Mike Fisher -- DB.com



Is Suns GM Steve Kerr’s slap-of-omission of Avery Johnson an accident, a slip of the tongue, a brain-cramping oversight?

Or is Kerr’s view fueled by his first-hand knowledge of one of the NBA’s worst-kept secrets -- a tale lowlighted by bantam-rooster ego, harsh locker-room words, and finally, Naked Greco-Roman Wrestling -- that could be a small part urban legend and a large part of The Lil’ General’s unfortunate legacy?

Quote from Kerr on Phoenix’ ongoing coaching search: “I'm in charge of hiring the right person. … What's interesting is that there are no obvious candidates now. It's not like there are really prominent former head coaches out there.’’

No "right persons''? "No obvious candidates''? No "prominent former head coaches out there''?

Yessir, that is interesting.





We were long ago tipped to one of the reasons Kerr might have that view of Avery as a coach non grata: Steve Nash has a voice in that organization, just as Dirk Nowitzki has a voice in Dallas. Nash and Nowitzki are best friends who listen to each others’ voices. So when Nash is pitching in by doing his due diligence on coaching candidates, and he calls Dirk to find out what went down in Dallas. … well, you get the picture.

And then there are X’s-and-O’s issues, and matters of “fit.’’

But there might be another reason.

According to the lore (and it seems most people inside the NBA know it, and chuckle about it), the year was 2000. Avery Johnson was a season removed from his finest moment, hitting that game-winning shot to help the Robinson/Duncan Spurs to a title. He will always get credit for being a vocal and inspirational leader of that team, but. …

“This is MY team! This is MY team!’’ Avery squawked as he marched through the visitors’ locker room in Cleveland wearing nothing but a towel and too much pride. “This is MY team!’’

He wasn’t really saying it to anyone. No one was really listening. It was, maybe, like Denzel Washington’s crooked cop at the end of “Training Day,’’ a defeated Alonzo Harris theatrically howling at the neighborhood that had finally endured enough of his sociopathic bullying.

“Okay. Alright. I'm putting cases on all you b****s. Huh. You think you can do this s***... You think you can do this to me? You m************s will be playing basketball in Pelican Bay when I get finished with you. SHU program, n****s. 23-hour lockdown. I'm the man up in this piece. You'll never see the light of... who the f*** do you think you're f***** with? I'm the police, I run s*** around here. You just live here. Yeah, that's right, you better walk away. Go on and walk away... 'cause I'm gonna' burn this m*********** down. King Kong ain't got s*** on me. That's right, that's right. … I'm winning anyway, I'm winning... I'm winning any m*********** way. I can't lose. Yeah, you can shoot me, but you can't kill me.’’

Now, imagine that in your ear. Only in a Cajun-flavored squeak.

“This is MY team! This is MY team!’’

Some would argue that Avery was simply flexing a familiar muscle, that using his emotion and his voice in that manner was commonplace and acceptable – certainly acceptable to coach Gregg Popovich, who’d anointed Avery as the admittedly effective surrogate eyes and ears (and mouth) of his roster.

Others say Avery kind of snapped, maybe responding to the realization that making that shot in the NBA Finals game was his pinnacle as a player, and that there was no place to go but down.

Whatever the motivation, a certain group – and by that we mean most of the Spurs players in that locker room that night in Cleveland not named David Robinson – had grown tired of Avery’s chest-thumping, ghetto-preaching, ego-pumping pin-and-needling, “This-Is-MY-Team’’ing form of leadership.

Next thing you know, Malik Rose dogpiled Avery Johnson. They fought. In the locker room. Naked.

Avery was fighting to represent himself. Malik pretty much represented everybody else.

“At the end, they all wanted him out of there,’’ says one NBA lifer who counts himself as a friend of Avery’s. “He grated on them. Bad. It was a matter of time before somebody finally shut him up.’’

Robinson eventually interceded and broke up the brawl. Popovich interceded in his own way, too, later explaining that the disheveled room was the result of his anger.

But it was all Avery. Avery being Avery. The Avery who got one measly scholarship offer, grudgingly accepted it, and twice led the NCAA in assists for Southern. The Avery who wasn’t drafted by the NBA, was frequently rejected by the NBA, and still, three decades later, is a champion as a player and a coach with an incredible .735 regular-season winning percentage.

But he’s also a coach without a job, a leader without a team, a voice without a stage.

What's going on here? Is Avery Johnson destined to be under the curse of Alonzo Harris? You know, coaching basketball in Pelican Bay?

Avery Johnson deserves a tremendous amount of credit for building himself into an NBA force. He would not be in a position to collect $4 million-a-year paychecks (from Mark Cuban or elsewhere,coaching or not) without his feistiness, his combativeness, his ego. But it’s that Michael Irvin philosophy all over again: “A man’s greatest strength is also his greatest weakness.’’

There are two sides to every story, and in this one, Avery’s strength is one side. Avery’s weakness is the other. We're not saying this tale necessarily paints Avery in a newly horrid light, especially considering that, again, NBA insiders have long known the details of the brawl; we will opine that we don't have to portray Avery negatively inasmuch as he continues to make public statements that do a befuddlingly complete job of that all by himself. So much so, in fact, that even the needy Bulls seem to have somehow misplaced his phone number.

Still, having considered both sides of the story and both sides of the man, aware only of Avery's faith-based "Aspire Higher'' reputation, would understandable ask: how does he not qualify to the Phoenix Suns as a “right person,’’ an “obvious candidate,’’ a “prominent former head coach’’?

Well, you know who else was on that team, and in that room, listening to “The Lil’ General’s’’ Cajun cajoling, watching Avery play both sides of management and roster, hearing Avery harshly critique teammates, and then that night in Cleveland, observing as Avery cracked up just a little bit, the pressure getting to him and manifesting itself in Avery being administered a naked-on-the-floor locker-room beatdown?

The future general manager of the Phoenix Suns, Steve Kerr, was on that team. And in that room.

558pm may 17 2008

[MWILL]

You guys have a good nite. :sleep

[AC#21_TD ERA]

Originally posted by AC#21_TD ERA

Let me put this into perspective for you Mavs fans. Avery was the best chance you had of winning a championship. His record speaks for itself. Avery knew what win’s championships and he tried to implement that style into the Mavs but he had the wrong cattle. Dallas was more of a threat to win it with Avery than without. Now that Avery is gone your championship window is closed.

You can bring Carlisle, give the floor to the washed up Jason Kidd and play that regular season style Basketball all you want. But when it comes to the post season and it turns into a half court game you need to have the mental toughness to grind it out, defend and get stops.

That’s what Avery tried to bring in but he had a so called franchise player in Dirk that was letting him down, Dirk can’t take the game by the scruff of the neck, Dirk is too soft to make the Mavs a fierce defensive team. He isn’t the player to build around unless you want to win the regular season.

We all know what win’s championships but obviously Dirk and the Mavs don’t. The Mavs got rid of the wrong guy and as a Spurs fan I love it because you’re no longer a threat. When you continuously fall short in the post season you’ll eventually realize that Avery wasn’t the problem it was Dirk and Cuban. You don’t’ know what you’ve got until it’s gone.

:hat