How come George Hill was second in pulling down rebounds last night?

[MoSpur]

Are our bigs that pathetic that our PG pulls more rebounds than they do? Something has to be done about this? Orberto, Thomas, and Bonner need to start crashing the boards. Its a joke these guys are getting outrebounded by George Hill. If I were Pop I would call them out in team meetings and embarrass them by saying they are getting outrebounded by a PG.

[Solid D]

Hill's a ball-hawk...no surprise there. He first showed that effort to Spurs fans in Summer League. I wasn't so impressed with 5 rebounds, though. I was surprised with 8 assists in 20 minutes. Hill definitely lost his focus, though, once B-Davis D'ed up on him in the 4th quarter.

[MoSpur]

I'll give you that, but Fab played right around 14 minutes and had 0 rebounds. Thomas only had 2 rebounds in 15 minutes and Bonner had 4 rebounds in 17 miuntes. So in 36 minutes combined, our bigs had a total of 6 rebounds. So that long rebounds thing doesn't work for me in last nights game.

I understand in some games there are a lot of long rebounds, but that was not the case last night.

[ORION]

Bigs will bust their ass concentrating on blocking out their man and that opens the door for guards to pull boards. Plus Hill does crash the boards rather than work for the outlet pass

[TJastal]

Are our bigs that pathetic that our PG pulls more rebounds than they do? Something has to be done about this? Orberto, Thomas, and Bonner need to start crashing the boards. Its a joke these guys are getting outrebounded by George Hill. If I were Pop I would call them out in team meetings and embarrass them by saying they are getting outrebounded by a PG.

Just a FYI, something I've noticed - Hill with those lanky arms has a habit of stealing those defensive rebounds just as one of the spurs' big guys is about to grab it. :lol

I'd be more concerned if Hill was outrebounding them all on the offensive board, though I wouldn't be surprised if he is doing that too, he is very quick to the ball.

[mathbzh]

When Duncan, Kaman and Camby have 15, 13 and 9 rebounds there are not many rebonds available for the other bigs. Guards does not fight for the same rebounds.

I agree they should have had more rebounds but I don't think it is relevant to look at Hill numbers.

[Dex]

Hill's a ball-hawk...no surprise there.

He's just getting the rebounds he's supposed to get after people shoot shots.

[TJastal]

Hill's a ball-hawk...no surprise there. He first showed that effort to Spurs fans in Summer League. I wasn't so impressed with 5 rebounds, though. I was surprised with 8 assists in 20 minutes. Hill definitely lost his focus, though, once B-Davis D'ed up on him in the 4th quarter.

I thought Hill was getting frustrated with the refs too, people say the spurs are chronic floppers, but Baron Davis flopped not once, but twice and the gullible fuck-tard officials who you would think would be wise to this sort of thing by now fell for it both times.

Officials: Derrick Collins , Gary Zielinski , Eddie F. Rush - just made my shitty official list

[MoSpur]

I hear all of what you all are saying, but NO rebouns for Oberto??? C'mon. Two for Thomas. That is more than just Hill having a nose for the ball or having long arms.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Mason's done a fair amount of hustling for rebounds as well. That's probably the one aspect where a Hill/Mason back court is equal to Manu/Tony. Part of the issue is that it feels like the Spurs are both taking more jumpshots and forcing more jumpshots from their opponents. Their two best finishers are sidelined and Tim is locking down the paint like he did in his MVP years. That of course leads to more long rebounds for perimeter players to chase.

With that said, Oberto and Thomas need to step up their games. I'm confident that they can as the season wears on, but to be honest as long as someone with a Spurs jersey is pulling them down I don't care who it is.

[ORION]

I hear all of what you all are saying, but NO rebouns for Oberto??? C'mon. Two for Thomas. That is more than just Hill having a nose for the ball or having long arms.

When your older and cannot get up you have to start using your head. So you have to concentrate on blocking out and using your body. Kaman and Camby can still get up and there is no way Oberto and Thomas can pull down rebounds off the rim. Best thing to do is make sure your man doesn't get it and let a guard fly in

[SenorSpur]

Are our bigs that pathetic that our PG pulls more rebounds than they do? Something has to be done about this? Orberto, Thomas, and Bonner need to start crashing the boards. Its a joke these guys are getting outrebounded by George Hill. If I were Pop I would call them out in team meetings and embarrass them by saying they are getting outrebounded by a PG.

Yor are correct, sir. There is no way to get around this issue. It is the "elephant in the room". The lack of rebounding from the rest of the bigs is pathetic. It also puts even more pressure on Duncan to nab at least 10 or more in every game. The Spurs are fortunate that Hill and Mason are such good rebounders for their positions. Since rebounding is about heart and desire, think about what that tells us about Hill and Mason. More importantly, think about what that doesn't tell us about Oberto, KT and Bonner.

Now that the Spurs are finding themselves defensively, their efforts are often negated by allowing the opposition extra possessions by way of offensive rebounds. Some of the recent close games wouldn't be as close if the team could keep the opposition of the offensive glass.

[DROB4EVER]

This is why we need to upgrade the 5 spot and the 3 if possible. A good reason we are just 5-5

[MarCowMar]

It's true that outside of Timmy our bigs aren't very good rebounders. They can't jump and it's not unusual to see an opposing player jump over their back and pull in a board. I think Bonner is especially weak in this regard. When he's in there always seem to be scrums right under the basket after an opponent miss.

Aside from more aggressive boxing out I'm not sure there's much our bigs can do though. Splitter would have been huge in helping us address this.

We're fortunate that Hill and sometimes Mason and Udoka are pretty good at rebounding from other positions.

[z0sa]

Since rebounding is about heart and desire, think about what that tells us about Hill and Mason. More importantly, think about what that doesn't tell us about Oberto, KT and Bonner.

I honestly don't believe you should group Bonner in there. In 17:25 of PT, he got 4 boards - all defensive (and this is where we need them). On Sunday in 27mins he had 7. Bonner isn't the problem, its Oberto always trying to tap it out and Thomas just being a day late to boxing his man out.


I think Bonner is especially weak in this regard.

But you don't think Oberto's zero in 14mins or Kurt's two in 15 were a problem at all? If there's a scrum for a board, its because someone's fighting for it. You see Timmy fighting all game, difference is, he's among the best ever. Most don't have the physical gifts or presence on the boards Tim's got.

[T Park]

I hear all of what you all are saying, but NO rebouns for Oberto??? C'mon. Two for Thomas. That is more than just Hill having a nose for the ball or having long arms.

Oberto was a post defender most of the night and there were alot of long rebounds.

Sometimes it happens.

[MoSpur]

In 10 games, the Spurs have let their opponents grab more offensive rebounds than they have in eight of those games. Last night the Clippers had 14 offensive rebounds and the Spurs had five. Against the Kings, the Kings grabbed 10 offensive rebounds to the Spurs five. Against Houston, the Rockets had 14 offensive rebounds to our seven. Those are extra opportunities for the opponent to score.

Orion, I honestly trying to understand your point and its a good one, but when it comes to Oberto and Thomas, its unexcusable. They need to crash the boards. Plain and simple.

[ORION]

In 10 games, the Spurs have let their opponents grab more offensive rebounds than they have in eight of those games. Last night the Clippers had 14 offensive rebounds and the Spurs had five. Against the Kings, the Kings grabbed 10 offensive rebounds to the Spurs five. Against Houston, the Rockets had 14 offensive rebounds to our seven. Those are extra opportunities for the opponent to score.

Orion, I honestly trying to understand your point and its a good one, but when it comes to Oberto and Thomas, its unexcusable. They need to crash the boards. Plain and simple.

They are not athletic and its not easy to crash the boards if the guys your defending are much more athletic. They have to use their strengths and unfortunately jumping is not one of them. You can't have someone do something they are not capable of doing. They just have to get someone more athletic in the paint. Spurs bigs cannot jump

[honestfool84]

he was second in rebounding because duncan beat him and got more rebounds than him, thus he couldn't be first.

[MoSpur]

Tim isn't that athletic and his hops aren't all that, but yet he pulled down 15.

[z0sa]

Tim isn't that athletic and his hops aren't all that, but yet he pulled down 15.

Ben Wallace Pre-2007. Some have a knack for getting to the glass (I'd say Rodman too, but he was a freak of nature in conditioning).

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Tim isn't that athletic and his hops aren't all that, but yet he pulled down 15.

True, but his vertical is still probably more than Oberto and KT's combined.

*ETA: This was #6,000 for me

[T Park]

Agreed. We all know Bonner and Fab are not great rebounders anyways. but there are certain games when all rebounds happen be long and guards usually get them.

I wouldn't say Oberto is not "great"

I'd say hes a good to decent rebounder.

[MoSpur]

Sorry, but to be honest, no one on here is going to convince me that our two bigs that play beside Tim can't combine to grab more rebounds than our PG when they combined to play about 30 minutes. I think its pathetic that two centers in the NBA who played 30minutes in a game combined for 2 rebounds. 2 rebounds people.

[z0sa]

Sorry, but to be honest, no one on here is going to convince me that our two bigs that play beside Tim can't combine to grab more rebounds than our PG when they combined to play about 30 minutes. I think its pathetic that two centers in the NBA who played 30minutes in a game combined for 2 rebounds. 2 rebounds people.

Oberto vs. the Knicks:

3-5 FG/A for 6 points
0-3 FT/A
9 Reb (3 offensive)
3 AST
1 STL
1 TO

Oberto is an above average rebounder and defender for his athletic ability. He just had an offnight.

[jbspurs]

Are our bigs that pathetic that our PG pulls more rebounds than they do? Something has to be done about this? Orberto, Thomas, and Bonner need to start crashing the boards. Its a joke these guys are getting outrebounded by George Hill. If I were Pop I would call them out in team meetings and embarrass them by saying they are getting outrebounded by a PG.


What the bigs are doing is focus on blocked out and let the small guys get in and grab the rebound. Since they don't do much of fastbreaks, the strategy works better. On the offensive end it'll be different, bigs need to grab rebounds for second chance points.

[Whisky Dog]

Tim isn't that athletic and his hops aren't all that, but yet he pulled down 15.

Tim is a 7 footer with extremely long arms and some of the best hands on a big man the basketball world has ever seen.

KT and Oberto.... Simply aren't. They do need to step up their rebounding because this has been a pattern, not one isolated games. They both can and have done better and they need to pick it up.

What were the team rebounding #s last night? How many offensive boards allowed?

[MoSpur]

So far in 10 games Thomas avgs about 15 minutes a game and avgs 3.4 rebounds per game. Fab avgs around 20 minutes a game and avgs about 3.3 rebounds per game. That is not gonna cut. That is why the Spurs opponents are grabbing a lot of offensive rebounds, which creates second chance points.

[MoSpur]

Tim is a 7 footer with extremely long arms and some of the best hands on a big man the basketball world has ever seen.

KT and Oberto.... Simply aren't. They do need to step up their rebounding because this has been a pattern, not one isolated games. They both can and have done better and they need to pick it up.

What were the team rebounding #s last night? How many offensive boards allowed?


The Spurs had five offensive and the Clippers had 14 offensive rebounds.

[sprrs]

The Spurs had five offensive and the Clippers had 14 offensive rebounds.

It was sickening watching all the second chances the Clippers got. If they had actually managed to convert them they would have blown out the Spurs last night.

[SenorSpur]

They are not athletic and its not easy to crash the boards if the guys your defending are much more athletic. They have to use their strengths and unfortunately jumping is not one of them. You can't have someone do something they are not capable of doing. They just have to get someone more athletic in the paint. Spurs bigs cannot jump

At their positions, rebounding is a fundamental part of being a big man, at any level. Just because they're not athletic doesn't excuse them from the responsibility of rebounding. Rebounding has less to do with athleticism, and much more to do with heart, effort desire and mainly positioning. All a player has to do is seal off the opponent by putting his body in between that of the opponent and the basket. It's that simple. Furthermmore, a smart, seasoned NBA veteran would be somewhat familiar with how and where certain shots will carom off the rim, based on the type of shot taken.

Dennis Rodman was a tremendous athlete, with good jumping ability. However, he didn't rely on that jumping ability to become a rebounding phenom. Instead he did so by using these very, same techniques. KT was once a fine rebounder. He came into the NBA as one of only 3 men to ever lead the NCAA in both scoring and rebounding. He may be older, but the guy does know how to board.

There should never be a scenario where any of the bigs, on this roster, end the game with "0" rebounds, when involved in at least 10-20 minutes of action. That is absolutely inexcusable.

[SenorSpur]

So far in 10 games Thomas avgs about 15 minutes a game and avgs 3.4 rebounds per game. Fab avgs around 20 minutes a game and avgs about 3.3 rebounds per game. That is not gonna cut. That is why the Spurs opponents are grabbing a lot of offensive rebounds, which creates second chance points.

Those numbers should be insulting to each of them as professional players. Each of these guys should be up around 5 rebounds per game. They simply have to give better, more consistent effort. Hell, Stephen Jackson is averaging 5 rebs per game.

[Tully365]

Oberto always seems to play better when he's on the floor with Manu, so I'm hoping that's part of it. But I have to say, he does look especially sluggish in the early going here.

None of the Spur bigs outside of Duncan are getting consistent minutes, so it's natural that their overall numbers aren't too impressive, but Thomas's rebound per 48 min of 10.8 is still somewhat respectable, putting him currently just behind Nick Collison and David Lee, and just ahead of Rasho, Amare, and Bonner. Oberto is way down compared to last year. The good news is that Hill and Mason are both rebounding very well, which could possibly explain at least a little bit of the change, and Pop is going with more smaller line ups, resulting in better rebounding numbers for guards. I sure do hope Mahinmi is here by december.

[PerforatedNeckline]

i'm hoping that Ian will help us out in this regard as long as he plays well enough in other areas to warrant time on the floor.

[easjer]

I get what you are saying, but I'm with SFIE. So long as the Spurs player is grabbing them, I don't care who it is.

I care when the effort isn't there and the other teams are really getting them. I think Ian will help in that regard. But again, whomever can have them - just get them.

[ORION]

At their positions, rebounding is a fundamental part of being a big man, at any level. Just because they're not athletic doesn't excuse them from the responsibility of rebounding. Rebounding has less to do with athleticism, and much more to do with heart, effort desire and mainly positioning. All a player has to do is seal off the opponent by putting his body in between that of the opponent and the basket. It's that simple. Furthermmore, a smart, seasoned NBA veteran would be somewhat familiar with how and where certain shots will carom off the rim, based on the type of shot taken.

Dennis Rodman was a tremendous athlete, with good jumping ability. However, he didn't rely on that jumping ability to become a rebounding phenom. Instead he did so by using these very, same techniques. KT was once a fine rebounder. He came into the NBA as one of only 3 men to ever lead the NCAA in both scoring and rebounding. He may be older, but the guy does know how to board.

There should never be a scenario where any of the bigs, on this roster, end the game with "0" rebounds, when involved in at least 10-20 minutes of action. That is absolutely inexcusable.

We are talking as to why Hill got more rebounds and I agree they do need to work harder on the glass. Going up against Kaman and Camby is difficult for anyone especially is your are not athletic. I wouldn't say Thomas was ever a fine rebounder and Rodman did use his jumping ability to pull rebounds. He would try and tip the ball to himself which would require multiple jumps. You don't see anyone in the league do that because no one wants to give the effort.
I totally agree that there is not reason they shouldn't try harder to get more boards but sometimes you have to use your head. Ability will only get you so far

[z0sa]

We are talking as to why Hill got more rebounds and I agree they do need to work harder on the glass. Going up against Kaman and Camby is difficult for anyone especially is your are not athletic. I wouldn't say Thomas was ever a fine rebounder and Rodman did use his jumping ability to pull rebounds. He would try and tip the ball to himself which would require multiple jumps. You don't see anyone in the league do that because no one wants to give the effort.
I totally agree that there is not reason they shouldn't try harder to get more boards but sometimes you have to use your head. Ability will only get you so far

:huh

He's averaged 7.4 per contest his career. Rebounding has never been a problem for him when motivated.

[MoSpur]

I agree with you Orion, but the thread was mainly a shot at our Centers. I love that George Hill is grabbing that many boards. I'm disappointed our bigs aren't.

[ORION]

:huh

He's averaged 7.4 per contest his career. Rebounding has never been a problem for him when motivated.

do you consider 7.4 fine ? I'd say he is average. I consider Duncan a fine rebounder.

[ORION]

I agree with you Orion, but the thread was mainly a shot at our Centers. I love that George Hill is grabbing that many boards. I'm disappointed our bigs aren't.

Its like Mark trying to out rebound me ......that should sum it up right there

[z0sa]

do you consider 7.4 fine ? I'd say he is average. I consider Duncan a fine rebounder.

Duncan is a GREAT rebounder, among the best ever.

Seven and a half boards per game isn't stellar, but it is definitely "fine."

[MoSpur]

Its like Mark trying to out rebound me ......that should sum it up right there


:lmao

Hey, Mark has two bad knees. Remember? :rolleyes

[ORION]

Duncan is a GREAT rebounder, among the best ever.

Seven and a half boards per game isn't stellar, but it is definitely "fine."

No Dwight Howard is a GREAT rebounder

[ORION]

:lmao

Hey, Mark has two bad knees. Remember? :rolleyes

You mean 2 bad ovaries

[z0sa]

No Dwight Howard is a GREAT rebounder

What are you saying 'no' to? Tim not being a great rebounder?

:lmao

BTW, Kurt Thomas just last season averaged 8.8 in only 25.3mins with Seattle. His numbers went down to 5 a contest here, but he also averaged 8 less minutes.

[ORION]

What are you saying 'no' to? Tim not being a great rebounder?

:lmao

BTW, Kurt Thomas just last season averaged 8.8 in only 25.3mins with Seattle. His numbers went down to 5 a contest here, but he also averaged 8 less minutes.

Well Tim can be great but is there anything greater than great because that's what Howard would be. I like Thomas but he is an average rebounder.

[ORION]

BTW, Kurt Thomas just last season averaged 8.8 in only 25.3mins with Seattle. His numbers went down to 5 a contest here, but he also averaged 8 less minutes.

oh and who else did he have to compete with for rebounds Nick Collison ?

[MoSpur]

You mean 2 bad ovaries


:rollin

[z0sa]

oh and who else did he have to compete with for rebounds Nick Collison ?

Nick Collison averages 7 a contest for his career.

[ORION]

Ok Thomas is a good rebounder

[z0sa]

I'm just curious how you average nearly 9 boards a game period in the NBA, especially in 25mins, and not be considered an above average rebounder. And that was only last season.

He needs to step up his game is all.

[MoSpur]

All I know is that both Thomas and Fab need to step up their rebounding and quit relying on Tim to do all the rebounding.

[Fingaroll44]

sometimes it's just a matter of long rebounds. that's all.

and long arms too

[SenorSpur]

Ok Thomas is a good rebounder

...which is why HE has no excuse for his poor rebounding effort. None of the bigs do.

Earlier I gave an obvious example of Rodman, as a player that utilized his smarts, technique and positioning, moreso than athleticism. I'll give you a less obvious example - former Washington Bullets center, Wes Unseld. Unseld was hardly athletic. In fact, he was about as gravity-challenged as any center in NBA history - not to mention being short, at 6'7". Yet the guy averaged 14 rebs per game over 13 years! Charles Barkley averaged 11.5 over his 16-yr career - and he was no more than 6'4".

Again, I say that rebounding is about positioning, heart, effort and desire, moreso than fabulous athleticism. It sure helps, but smart players can get by without it.

On another note, ever since D-Rob retired, I've always wanted Duncan to have another player on the backline to help him patrol the paint. That ideal player for me is Marcus Camby, who still rebounds and blocks shots, at an alarming rate for a player in his early 30's.

[The Truth #6]

Basically Kurt Thomas is going to have to step it up and hopefully Ian will be able to contribute, especially on the offensive glass.

[MoSpur]

Good post Senor

[Tully365]

...which is why HE has no excuse for his poor rebounding effort. None of the bigs do.

Earlier I gave an obvious example of Rodman, as a player that utilized his smarts, technique and positioning, moreso than athleticism. I'll give you a less obvious example - former Washington Bullets center, Wes Unseld. Unseld was hardly athletic. In fact, he was about as gravity-challenged as any center in NBA history - not to mention being short, at 6'7". Yet the guy averaged 14 rebs per game over 13 years! Charles Barkley averaged 11.5 over his 16-yr career.

Again, I say that rebounding is about positioning, heart, effort and desire, moreso than fabulous athleticism. It sure helps, but smart players can get by without it.

On another note, ever since D-Rob retired, I've always wanted Duncan to have another player on the backline to help him patrol the paint. That ideal player for me is Marcus Camby, who still rebounds and blocks shots, at an alarming rate for a player in his early 30's.

You are wise, Senor...

[manufor3]

When Duncan, Kaman and Camby have 15, 13 and 9 rebounds there are not many rebonds available for the other bigs. Guards does not fight for the same rebounds.

I agree they should have had more rebounds but I don't think it is relevant to look at Hill numbers.

Guards does not fight for the same rebounds.
nice english

[timvp]

Here's a look at each of the bigs rebounding number with this year compared to last year and the percentage drop in production:

Fabricio Oberto 6.6 10.4 -36.5%
Kurt Thomas 9.0 12.8 -29.7%
Tim Duncan 10.7 13.3 -19.9%
Matt Bonner 8.7 9.0 -3.3%

Rebounding is down across the board. Oberto is the biggest culprit. 6.6 rebounds per 40 minutes will simply not get it done as a big in the NBA. Thomas and Duncan are both down pretty significantly.

Bonner isn't down as much but 8.7 is low for an NBA big. His percent drop is helped because he didn't rebound well last year either. He needs to get that up to around 10 or at least where it was his first year with the Spurs.

[homer]

Are our bigs that pathetic that our PG pulls more rebounds than they do? Something has to be done about this? Orberto, Thomas, and Bonner need to start crashing the boards. Its a joke these guys are getting outrebounded by George Hill. If I were Pop I would call them out in team meetings and embarrass them by saying they are getting outrebounded by a PG.

Shaq only had one rebound in Phoenix vs Utah game last night. :lol It happens.

[duncan228]

Here's a look at each of the bigs rebounding number with this year compared to last year and the percentage drop in production:

Tim Duncan 10.7 13.3 -19.9%


What are your thoughts for Duncan's decline? (Sorry if you've answered this somewhere that I missed).

[mrspurs]

Well Mo I think its pretty easy to say. On most nights our bigs are gonna get out rebounded by the other point guards as well. Ill never be happy until both Fab and Kurt are off the team. And it would be even nicer if they got kicked or traded while Timmy is still here. It would be nice to see another Real big play next to Tim this season.

[MoSpur]

I bet Tim also would like a real Big to play next to. Its sad to say, but Rasho was the last real center Tim played next to.

[SpurSupremacist]

I'm as critical as they come, but they've just won 3 in a row with these scrubs getting a bunch of playing time. Cut them some slack, eh? And for what it's worth, the player I've seen get boarded on the most this year has been Duncan. Hurts me to say it. But shit, he's still playing really well, and they're winning... who cares. A W is a W. Once they start losing games, then I'll be right there talking shit on them with you.

[SenorSpur]

I'm as critical as they come, but they've just won 3 in a row with these scrubs getting a bunch of playing time. Cut them some slack, eh? And for what it's worth, the player I've seen get boarded on the most this year has been Duncan. Hurts me to say it. But shit, he's still playing really well, and they're winning... who cares. A W is a W. Once they start losing games, then I'll be right there talking shit on them with you.

No one is disparging the accomplishment of winning 3 games in a row. Just because the team is on a winning streak, doesn't mean everything is perfect either. There's no question that rebounding is down. That is a fact and has nothing to do with Manu or TPs injuries. Any average Spurs fan, who is watching the game, can see that. The supporting cast of bigmen MUST pickup their effort if the Spurs are to their track of success.

Another thing, last time I checked, it's the same bigs that were playing last season (sans Horry). Again, which makes the dropoff inexcusable. We're all hopeful that Ian will provide much-needed relief. Until then, all the bigs need to collectively "step up" their effort and help Duncan.

[Tully365]

. Once they start losing games, then I'll be right there talking shit on them with you.

:lmao Spoken like a true fan.

[MoSpur]

I'm as critical as they come, but they've just won 3 in a row with these scrubs getting a bunch of playing time. Cut them some slack, eh? And for what it's worth, the player I've seen get boarded on the most this year has been Duncan. Hurts me to say it. But shit, he's still playing really well, and they're winning... who cares. A W is a W. Once they start losing games, then I'll be right there talking shit on them with you.

I am just pointing out the Spurs rebounding issues. I find it hard to believe that Fab grabs zero rebounds in about 15 minutes and Thomas only two.

[Solid D]

The decline is reflected more in the offensive rebounding for the Spurs and their opponents. The Spurs are averaging close to the same numbers in defensive rebounds, but they are almost 2 offensive rebounds/game fewer than last season. Their opponents are 1 offensive reb./game higher than last season but I think Andrew Bogut is responsible for some of that skew with 7 ORBs in that loss. He almost single-handedly beat the Spurs with 2nd chances. Przybilla and Fernandez had 4 apiece in the Blazers' squeeker and Kaman and Camby almost did the same last night. Those 2nd chance points from ORBs have made the difference in a 5-5 record and a 7-3 record. At least the Spurs have cut down on the opponents' transition scoring the past 5 games. Defensively, much better allowing 105 ppg in the first 5 games and 81 ppg in the last 5 games.

2007-08.....OR...DR...Total
Spurs........9.4 31.9 41.3
Opponents 9.5 30.8 40.3

2008-09.....OR...DR...Total
Spurs........ 7.7 31.2 38.9
Opponents 10.6 32.1 42.7

[mrspurs]

So far Pop hasnt really given Fab or Kurt the amount of minutes a starter would get. They seem to be splitting up the game inbetween them. Pop throws in AT and Bonner from time to time and depends on 3 point shooting. It all has todo with Manu and now TP. Thou, sometimes I dont like some of the moves Pop makes. He is trying to win with what he has. And right now Fab and Kurt dont seem to be part of that mixture of winning games. Yes they are on the court. But neither one is playing like last season. They just dont seem to have a role for a Center with this current roster. Kinda looks like they play about 15-20 mins per game. But they're only there to make sure we have 5 guys on the court. It will be nice if and when Ian comes back so that the FO can start working on that area. They seem to have Manu and TPs area running on the right track. All thats left imo is putting the bigs into their places and blending in their minutes.

[SenorSpur]

Well Mo I think its pretty easy to say. On most nights our bigs are gonna get out rebounded by the other point guards as well. Ill never be happy until both Fab and Kurt are off the team. And it would be even nicer if they got kicked or traded while Timmy is still here. It would be nice to see another Real big play next to Tim this season.

MrSpurs, you've said something publically that will admit to thinking about privately. The diminished production we're getting out of the tandem of KT and Fab is putting an extreme burden on Tim. This comes at a time where he's already playing a lot of minutes and virtually carrying the offense, backline defense and rebounding. This shouldn't be the case.

I've often watched and wondered how great it would be if there was another above-average, veteran, big to play alongside Tim, like a Marcus Camby. I know, keep dreamin', right. Diminished production from key rotation players is a burden to the superstar players on this team. KT and Fab, at this point in their careers, can't contribute enough in a way to offset Duncan. If this is as good as it gets from KT and Fab and they're production does not improve, then they really shouldn't have a place on the team. Of course, we know the reality is that contractual situations dictate otherwise. Unfortunately, they're gonna be here.

[Solid D]

So far Pop hasnt really given Fab or Kurt the amount of minutes a starter would get. They seem to be splitting up the game inbetween them. Pop throws in AT and Bonner from time to time and depends on 3 point shooting. It all has todo with Manu and now TP. Thou, sometimes I dont like some of the moves Pop makes. He is trying to win with what he has. And right now Fab and Kurt dont seem to be part of that mixture of winning games. Yes they are on the court. But neither one is playing like last season. They just dont seem to have a role for a Center with this current roster. Kinda looks like they play about 15-20 mins per game. But they're only there to make sure we have 5 guys on the court. It will be nice if and when Ian comes back so that the FO can start working on that area. They seem to have Manu and TPs area running on the right track. All thats left imo is putting the bigs into their places and blending in their minutes.

It may not seem like Fab and Kurt have a role if you look at their numbers.... but they do have a role:

Play team defense, rebound, and set lots of screens...ball screens, back screens, down screens, cross screens, you get the idea. That's how the shooters get space. The only part of their role they are not fulfilling well is rebounding. However, the Spurs DO have a role for a Center besides Tim.

[SenorSpur]

It may not seem like Fab and Kurt have a role if you look at their numbers.... but they do have a role:

Play team defense, rebound, and set lots of screens...ball screens, back screens, down screens, cross screens, you get the idea. That's how the shooters get space. The only part of their role they are not fulfilling well is rebounding. However, the Spurs DO have a role for a Center besides Tim.

Those intangibles are very important - even though they don't show up in the box score. That said, I would still argue that rebounding (especially on the defensive end) is just as important. The Spurs are giving the opposition way to many 2nd chance points and extra possessions.

[timvp]

The decline is reflected more in the offensive rebounding for the Spurs and their opponents. The Spurs are averaging close to the same numbers in defensive rebounds, but they are almost 2 offensive rebounds/game fewer than last season. Their opponents are 1 offensive reb./game higher than last season but I think Andrew Bogut is responsible for some of that skew with 7 ORBs in that loss. He almost single-handedly beat the Spurs with 2nd chances. Przybilla and Fernandez had 4 apiece in the Blazers' squeeker and Kaman and Camby almost did the same last night. Those 2nd chance points from ORBs have made the difference in a 5-5 record and a 7-3 record. At least the Spurs have cut down on the opponents' transition scoring the past 5 games. Defensively, much better allowing 105 ppg in the first 5 games and 81 ppg in the last 5 games.

2007-08.....OR...DR...Total
Spurs........9.4 31.9 41.3
Opponents 9.5 30.8 40.3

2008-09.....OR...DR...Total
Spurs........ 7.7 31.2 38.9
Opponents 10.6 32.1 42.7
Very good thoughts :tu

Looking individually, it appears as if any shortcomings on the defensive glass are due largely to the drop in production from Oberto and Duncan.

Defensive rebounds per 40 minutes this season v last season and percentage difference
Oberto - 4.3 v 6.8 -36.8%
Duncan - 7.7 v 9.8 -21.4%
Thomas - 7.1 v 7.7 -7.8%
Bonner - 7 v 6.4 +9.4

The good news, as you pointed out, is that the overall rebounding problem isn't as dire as it appears at first glance. Offensive rebounding has never been an important aspect of the Spurs' attack and should rise as the season progresses due to variance alone.

To answer duncan228's question, I think a lot of Duncan's rebounding "problems" can be attributed to the fact that he's garnering a lot more attention right now. When he's continually posting up offensively, it's more difficult to grab offensive rebounds. Usually when TP or Manu is creating off the dribble, Duncan can get into position to fight for offensive rebounds.

Even on the defensive end, teams know where Duncan is at all times and they are putting a body on him to keep him off the boards. Once the other bigs pick up the slack rebounding wise and TP and Manu return to quicken the overall pace of games, more defensive rebounding opportunities will arise for Duncan.

Plus, the slippage from Duncan can also be explained somewhat by considering that he has to put in extra effort into so many other areas of the game so he can't pay as much attention to grabbing rebounds as normal. The good news is I don't see any physical reason causing the dip in rebounding.

[Solid D]

If Pop gets a wild hair and decides to implement the new-rage Dribble Drive motion offense for the majority of his sets, then Fab and KT would have minimal roles. Otherwise, there is still a need for screen-setter types.

timvp, I think that Timmy is doing what he can to defend the paint and maybe forsaking rebounding position, in doing so. Also, the Spurs seem to be more concerned about not giving up points in transition, so they are getting back - perhaps even a bit prematurely right now. Just a thought.

[duncan228]

Thanks for the perspective timvp. Your logic always helps things look clearer.

[timvp]

Just a little update on the rebounding issues. After Oberto's performance last night, he's grabbing less defensive rebounds per minute than Mason, Hill and Bowen.

When Bowen is outrebounding the starting center, that's cause for alarm . . .

[MoSpur]

Just a little update on the rebounding issues. After Oberto's performance last night, he's grabbing less defensive rebounds per minute than Mason, Hill and Bowen.

When Bowen is outrebounding the starting center, that's cause for alarm . . .

Wow. I didn't even notice this. Bowen is probably the worst at grabbing boards. So if he is doing a better job than our starting center, there is a problem.