Pedroia? Really?

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

How fucking funny. I don't even think he was the MVP of the BoSox, let alone the entire AL.

Without looking, I'm going to guess that it's one of the worst statistical years of an AL MVP winner ever.

Quentin was flat out robbed.

[IronMexican]

BULL FUCKING SHIT! No way does this guy deserve it. Carlos Quentin, or Longoria were ahead of him, imo.

[dirk4mvp]

Good job, Pedroia.

[FromWayDowntown]

Without looking, I'm going to guess that it's one of the worst statistical years of an AL MVP winner ever.

That was my initial impression, too.

Quentin struck me as an excellent choice, as well, finishing 11th in RBI and 2nd in HR, 2nd in OPS, 4th in OBP, 2nd in SLG, 3rd in OPS+, 16th in runs scored, all while being a huge part of a division champion and despite missing 32 games. What hurt him, of course, was the fact that he only played 1 game in September; when he went out the ChiSox were tied for first with the Twins and that's basically the way things ended in October.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

That was my initial impression, too.

Quentin struck me as an excellent choice, as well, finishing 11th in RBI and 2nd in HR, 2nd in OPS, 4th in OBP, 2nd in SLG, 3rd in OPS+, 16th in runs scored, all while being a huge part of a division champion and despite missing 32 games. What hurt him, of course, was the fact that he only played 1 game in September; when he went out the ChiSox were tied for first with the Twins and that's basically the way things ended in October.

September was also the only month last year that the WS didn't finish with a .500 record.

He also led the WS in Runs, HRs, RBIs, OBP, SLG%, OPS etc. despite missing 32 games. Without Quentin, they're lucky to win 75 games.

And how does FRod end up with more MVP votes than Cliff Lee? If Pedroia wins it, then how does Brian Roberts not even garner a vote?

[FromWayDowntown]

September was also the only month last year that the WS didn't finish with a .500 record.

He also led the WS in Runs, HRs, RBIs, OBP, SLG%, OPS etc. despite missing 32 games. Without Quentin, they're lucky to win 75 games.

And how does FRod end up with more MVP votes than Cliff Lee? If Pedroia wins it, then how does Brian Roberts not even garner a vote?

Yeah, I'm not really making an argument against Quentin so much as trying to understand how he finished that far back in the voting. I think if Quentin had missed May and played in September -- all other things being equal -- he runs away with the award.

I can see the point on KRod getting more votes than Cliff Lee; I tend to think that closers are better MVP candidates than starters, as a general principle --closers are much more like everyday players -- but I don't think that pitchers are particularly well-taken as MVP candidates. With that said, KRod closed out more than 60% of his team's 100 wins, while Lee kept a bad team from being worse. Lee certainly has the Carlton argument while KRod has a bit of the Willie Hernandez from 1984 argument. Neither strikes me as particularly compelling, but I could see where voters would, by and large, deem KRod more valuable than Lee. Saves are among the more bogus stats in baseball and I'm at least relieved that KRod didn't walk away with an MVP for rolling up saves, particularly when more than half of his appearances (44 of 78) came with his team up or down by 2 or more runs.

The thing about Pedroia is that if he put up the same numbers in Arlington, Minneapolis, Toronto, or Seattle, there's no way he's getting that kind of MVP love. For crissakes, he might not have had the best season of any AL 2nd baseman; Roberts is a good example of that, but Ian Kinsler put up comparable if not better rate numbers and almost had better gross numbers than Pedroia, despite getting almost 150 fewer plate appearances than Pedroia did:

Kinsler: 319 BA;.375 OBP;.517 SLG; 134 OPS+, 102 R, 41 2b, 4 3b, 18 HR, 71 RBI, 26 SB, 583 PA

Pedroia: .326 BA; .376 OBP; .493 SLG; 122 OPS+, 118 R, 54 2b, 2 3b, 17 HR, 83 RBI, 20 SB, 726 PA

If he's not even the best second baseman in the league (the fielding difference strikes me as negligible at best -- Kinsler made 3 times as many errors, but made about 1 more play per game than Pedroia did), I'm not sure how he can be the league's MVP.

[BRHornet45]

well he plays for Boston .... that fact alone gets him at least 10 first place votes from the media already. at least they got the NL MVP right this year though.

[K-State Spur]

Easily the worst American League MVP since Munson in '76 - but at least Munson had a large effect on the game defensively.

However, in fairness, this was a year in which there was no clear cut candidate. But Quentin or Hamilton would have been better selections.

If you put Pedroia on ANY team that didn't make the playoffs, I don't think he puts any of them over the hump.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

If you put Pedroia on ANY team that isn't located in the northeast, then you could count his MVP votes on one hand.

[JamStone]

Josh Hamilton probably deserved more votes but Rangers were shitty. That's who I would have voted for because no one really stood out as the clear favorite in the AL.

Kevin Youkilis was the Red Sox MVP this year, imo. And, JD Drew carried that team for like a month and a half stretch.

[kwhitegocubs]

What about Morneau? He had 1 less RBI than Hamilton on a team that he and Mauer single-handedly carried to a Central Division tie. In fact, Mauer, because he plays the most important defensive position (and had a monster BA and OBP), would have been a good choice too.

That being said, look at Ryne Sandberg's MVP stats in 1984 and Pedroia this year:

Pedroia 2008
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS+ TB
157 653 118 213 54 2 17 83 20 1 50 52 .326 .376 .493 122 322
Sandberg 1984
156 636 114 200 36 19 19 84 32 7 52 101 .314 .367 .520 140 331

Both played 2nd, both won Gold Gloves. Sandberg had a .993 FP and Pedroia .992, though Sandberg had notably better range, both in comparison to the league and in raw chances per game.

I am a big Cubs fan (obviously) and when I saw Pedroia's stats I knew that they were very close, and upon checking, even closer than I would have guessed.

[K-State Spur]

Kevin Youkilis was the Red Sox MVP this year, imo.

Agreed.

[K-State Spur]

What about Morneau? He had 1 less RBI than Hamilton on a team that he and Mauer single-handedly carried to a Central Division tie. In fact, Mauer, because he plays the most important defensive position (and had a monster BA and OBP), would have been a good choice too.

That being said, look at Ryne Sandberg's MVP stats in 1984 and Pedroia this year:

Pedroia 2008
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS+ TB
157 653 118 213 54 2 17 83 20 1 50 52 .326 .376 .493 122 322
Sandberg 1984
156 636 114 200 36 19 19 84 32 7 52 101 .314 .367 .520 140 331

Both played 2nd, both won Gold Gloves. Sandberg had a .993 FP and Pedroia .992, though Sandberg had notably better range, both in comparison to the league and in raw chances per game.

I am a big Cubs fan (obviously) and when I saw Pedroia's stats I knew that they were very close, and upon checking, even closer than I would have guessed.

The overall numbers are fairly close, but remember that those numbers meant more in 1984 than they do today - with more offense around the league. The 140 to 122 OPS+ difference is pretty big. That means - in relation to the rest of the league - Sandberg was 18% better than Pedroia was in relation to his league.

In fact, Sandberg finished 3rd in the league in OPS that year (and carried a team that wasn't expected to contend to the playoffs). Pedroia didn't finish in the top 15 in the AL.

[v2freak]

Good job, Pedroia.

[kwhitegocubs]

Oh, no doubt. The OPS+ disparity (between Sandberg and Pedroia) is huge, and the gap in range is bigger than the similarity in FP. That being said, I believe he (Pedroia) was 1st in Runs Created and 2nd in Win Shares. Joe Mauer was 2nd and then 1st I believe.

Mauer was 1st in Win Probability added (one measure of clutch that is kinda fun), and Pedroia was 8th.

The more I think about it, because of the overwhelming influence of playing Catcher, I lean Mauer.

The MVP ballot actually lists "games played" as a factor for consideration, and I can't recall the last time a player playing as few games as Quentin won it, maybe a Catcher. Youkilis played only 145 games, so that might have hurt him too.

[K-State Spur]

yeah, i have to admit that i was very surprised he finished so well in win-shares.

his numbers are nothing to spit at, don't get me wrong, but it wouldn't seem that those numbers would put him above some of the other guys in the league in that category.

[NBA Junkie]

What about Morneau?

He was flat out terrible the final two weeks of the season and that may have been a deciding factor.

[sribb43]

If Kinsler would have played the whole season he would have outperformed Pedroia easily. I would have given it to Youkilis. He played 1b and also 3b at all-star levels when Mike Lowell was out...and how the hell did ibanez, aubrey huff, jason bartlett and ichiro get votes

[K-State Spur]

If Kinsler would have played the whole season he would have outperformed Pedroia easily. I would have given it to Youkilis. He played 1b and also 3b at all-star levels when Mike Lowell was out...and how the hell did ibanez, aubrey huff, jason bartlett and ichiro get votes

well, huff had a better offensive year than pedroia by a decent margin. and bartlett helps us stay with the theme of undeserving middle IFs.

[JamStone]

Madden even said something to the effect that his most important player this year was Jason Bartlett, and the Rays had a crazy turn around and went all the way to World Series. Some writer/s who heard Madden say that and took it and ran with it.

Ichiro gets votes on name recognition.

Aubrey Huff had a hell of an offensive year, as did Raul Ibanez. Neither deserving of MVP votes, but there could have been worse choices.

[manufor3]

QUENTIN got robbed!

[kwhitegocubs]

Well, other than Barry Bonds in '03, who also played only 130 games, there has not ben a position-player MVP who played as few games as Quention receiving an MVP since George Brett in 1980. Bonds had a 231 OPS plus and Brett hit .390, so they so far exceeded the league that such a reward was more justified.

Quentin had a great year, but he also got injured at the worst possible time (at least in voters' eyes).

[sribb43]

Lol at Rangers DMN writer Evan Grant for leaving Pedroia completely off the MVP ballot...He got roasted by the fans in boston and even went on boston radio to defend himself only to look like even a bigger idiot. Here are some comments some Sox fans left on his atricle....

http://rangersblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2008/11/my-mvp-vote.html

[FromWayDowntown]

Lol at Rangers DMN writer Evan Grant for leaving Pedroia completely off the MVP ballot...He got roasted by the fans in boston and even went on boston radio to defend himself only to look like even a bigger idiot. Here are some comments some Sox fans left on his atricle....

http://rangersblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2008/11/my-mvp-vote.html

The comments are hilarious and pathetic at the same time.

You'd think there was nothing else going on in the City of Boston -- or that Pedroia had lost out on the MVP by one vote!

[T Park]

Bravo to Evan Grant.

[Reggie Miller]

I swear, it's like the BWAA is becoming more senile every freakin' year. Some of the ballots this year make me wish that you had to pass a competitive exam to vote. You had pitchers get votes for MVP, but not the Cy Young by the SAME voters. You had considerable votes for Sabathia and Ramirez for NL awards, even though they played half their seasons in the AL.

Longoria (AL ROY), Pujols (NL MVP), and Soto (NL ROY) were the correct outcomes. The rest were quite an indictment of the voters.

[FromWayDowntown]

Longoria (AL ROY), Pujols (NL MVP), and Soto (NL ROY) were the correct outcomes. The rest were quite an indictment of the voters.

I'm not sure it's quite that bad. Lincecum might not have been the prototypical Cy Young winner in the NL this year, but I can't really quarrel much with that result as being absurd or anything like that.

The Lee selection for AL Cy Young seems to me to be about the same thing. Lee's gross numbers were phenomenal -- all things considered -- and only Halladay really came close to those numbers. But I can see the choice of Lee as completely defenisble, given that he put up exceptional numbers on a pretty mediocre team (relatively speaking).

The Manager of the Year selections are also pretty hard to quarrel with, if you consider that to be a discussion-worthy award. Maddon absolutely deserved the AL Manager of the Year for his work with that young team in Tampa; Piniella's club was terrible in the post-season, but exceptional throughout the season.

I think it was generally a difficult year for awards because of the movement within the league and because the teams that were among the best in the game lacked players or pitchers who really and truly put up dominant numbers or made dramatic differences. Sabathia and Ramirez might truly have been the two most impactful players of 2008, but neither really warranted a post-season award given their half-seasons of true impact. In almost every category, the field was pretty watered down. For the most part, I think the choices (other than Pedroia) are solid and defensible, even if I might have voted differently.

[K-State Spur]

Longoria (AL ROY), Pujols (NL MVP), and Soto (NL ROY) were the correct outcomes. The rest were quite an indictment of the voters.

Lincecum & Lee were the right selections as well. Pedroia is really the only one I have a problem with. The gold gloves were crap - but does that even have meaning anymore?

[Reggie Miller]

I'm not sure it's quite that bad. Lincecum might not have been the prototypical Cy Young winner in the NL this year, but I can't really quarrel much with that result as being absurd or anything like that.

The Lee selection for AL Cy Young seems to me to be about the same thing. Lee's gross numbers were phenomenal -- all things considered -- and only Halladay really came close to those numbers. But I can see the choice of Lee as completely defenisble, given that he put up exceptional numbers on a pretty mediocre team (relatively speaking).

The Manager of the Year selections are also pretty hard to quarrel with, if you consider that to be a discussion-worthy award. Maddon absolutely deserved the AL Manager of the Year for his work with that young team in Tampa; Piniella's club was terrible in the post-season, but exceptional throughout the season.

I think it was generally a difficult year for awards because of the movement within the league and because the teams that were among the best in the game lacked players or pitchers who really and truly put up dominant numbers or made dramatic differences. Sabathia and Ramirez might truly have been the two most impactful players of 2008, but neither really warranted a post-season award given their half-seasons of true impact. In almost every category, the field was pretty watered down. For the most part, I think the choices (other than Pedroia) are solid and defensible, even if I might have voted differently.




Halladay had a better year than Lee by every measure except ERA and wins, and they were exceptionally close in those two categories. Halladay pitched more innings, had more Ks, and posted a lower WHIP. "Indictment of the voters" is probably a little strong here, however. I do get caught up in my own rhetoric at times.

The main problem with the AL Cy Young voting was the horrible inconsistency of it all. Some people are still clearly voting for the pitcher with the most wins, period. The voting also lacked internal consistency. Halladay should have finished a very close second, but it wasn't even in the same galaxy. You had voters giving K-Rod AL MVP votes, but no AL Cy Young votes. (Huh?)

Linceum certainly wasn't the clear-cut winner, either. You could make decent arguments for Santana (even with missing time), Webb, Haren, Hamels, Billingsley, and even Dempster. Again, it's not the outcome I mind so much as the process. Linceum ran away with it, while Brad Lidge received more votes than Dempster, Hamels, Haren, and Billingsley combined. Again, no real internal logic there.

Maddon certainly deserved AL MOY, and that was an oversight on my part. (I just forgot about the award entirely.) Piniella doesn't deserve as much credit for the Cubs' success, in my honest opinion. This has nothing to do with the postseason, but how he managed certain resources during the regular season. His handling of the bullpen and the Fukudome situation were very poor. Piniella is a good, possibly even a great manager, but he deserved the award last year, not this one. His real achievements of turning the team around and changing the institutional culture all happened last year. This year, he had the best horses, period. I would have given Manuel the NL MOY award, even before the postseason began.

The Gold Gloves, as always, were total crap.

[FromWayDowntown]

Halladay had a better year than Lee by every measure except ERA and wins, and they were exceptionally close in those two categories. Halladay pitched more innings, had more Ks, and posted a lower WHIP. "Indictment of the voters" is probably a little strong here, however. I do get caught up in my own rhetoric at times.

The main problem with the AL Cy Young voting was the horrible inconsistency of it all. Some people are still clearly voting for the pitcher with the most wins, period. The voting also lacked internal consistency. Halladay should have finished a very close second, but it wasn't even in the same galaxy. You had voters giving K-Rod AL MVP votes, but no AL Cy Young votes. (Huh?)

Linceum certainly wasn't the clear-cut winner, either. You could make decent arguments for Santana (even with missing time), Webb, Haren, Hamels, Billingsley, and even Dempster. Again, it's not the outcome I mind so much as the process. Linceum ran away with it, while Brad Lidge received more votes than Dempster, Hamels, Haren, and Billingsley combined. Again, no real internal logic there.

Maddon certainly deserved AL MOY, and that was an oversight on my part. (I just forgot about the award entirely.) Piniella doesn't deserve as much credit for the Cubs' success, in my honest opinion. This has nothing to do with the postseason, but how he managed certain resources during the regular season. His handling of the bullpen and the Fukudome situation were very poor. Piniella is a good, possibly even a great manager, but he deserved the award last year, not this one. His real achievements of turning the team around and changing the institutional culture all happened last year. This year, he had the best horses, period. I would have given Manuel the NL MOY award, even before the postseason began.

The Gold Gloves, as always, were total crap.

A lot to discuss there, but I think the one thing that I can comment upon immediately is the seeming inconsistency in voting for KRod for MVP and not Cy Young. Certainly, there are historical precedents for giving Cy Young votes to relievers, but more and more the conventional wisdom seems to be that closer-types are more like everyday players than starting pitchers and that closers should be more readily considered for the MVP than the Cy Young Award. I'm not saying that I agree with that, I can -- to some extent at least -- see the logic behind a decision to give a closer an MVP vote without giving him a Cy Young vote in the same year.

And I agree that the Gold Gloves are, by and large, nonsense.

[Reggie Miller]

A lot to discuss there, but I think the one thing that I can comment upon immediately is the seeming inconsistency in voting for KRod for MVP and not Cy Young. Certainly, there are historical precedents for giving Cy Young votes to relievers, but more and more the conventional wisdom seems to be that closer-types are more like everyday players than starting pitchers and that closers should be more readily considered for the MVP than the Cy Young Award. I'm not saying that I agree with that, I can -- to some extent at least -- see the logic behind a decision to give a closer an MVP vote without giving him a Cy Young vote in the same year.

And I agree that the Gold Gloves are, by and large, nonsense.



There is definitely an argument to be made along those lines. The entire idea that a reliever pitching less than 100 innings per season could EVER be the most valuable player in an entire league is the real logical gaffe there.