On J.F.K.

[Nbadan]

Forget the Bush connections to the CIA and many people who happened to be at Daly Plaza, this video says all you need to know...


Mwt_xKs2hFE

[Galileo]

CIA employee George H. W. Bush was in Dallas, Texas, on November 22, 1963.

[Bigzax]

good shot Mr. president!

[johnsmith]

Fail

[IceColdBrewski]

I think you're gonna have to put more bait on the hook than that dan.

[doobs]

CIA employee George H. W. Bush was in Dallas, Texas, on November 22, 1963.

And I'm in Austin, Texas, on November 22, 2008.

[Twisted_Dawg]

Nixon was in Dallas the day and night before Kennedy was shot. And the French Intelligence Agency informed the US govt hours after Kennedy was shot that a well known French terrorist and assassin,Jean Souetre, was in Dallas. Strange how all these different players were in Dallas.

[ElNono]

I wasn't born yet in 1963... so I should definitely be ruled out...

[doobs]

I wasn't born yet in 1963... so I should definitely be ruled out...

That's what you would have us believe

[samikeyp]

Or Dealey Plaza maybe? :)

I was there...I saw the whole thing.


It was mob-trained Cubans!!


or was it Cuban-trained mobsters?

Anywho, I was there, I saw the whole thing and it was...

Um..hold on, someone's at the door. Hey, he looks official, he has a nice, shiny black Suburban. brb...

[Viva Las Espuelas]

excellent breakthrough in the case, dan.

[Wild Cobra]

CIA employee George H. W. Bush was in Dallas, Texas, on November 22, 1963.
How do you expect anyone to see you as credible when you keep stating the facts incorrectly? How can I believe he was there? Not by your word...

Former president Bush was the president of the Zapata Offshore Company. It was headquartered in Austin at the time of president Kennedy's assassination. He was not involved in the CIA until 1976, and for less than a year as the Director. Not your normal employee.

Was he in Dallas? Probably. I know not to trust your word however.

[Galileo]

How do you expect anyone to see you as credible when you keep stating the facts incorrectly? How can I believe he was there? Not by your word...

Former president Bush was the president of the Zapata Offshore Company. It was headquartered in Austin at the time of president Kennedy's assassination. He was not involved in the CIA until 1976, and for less than a year as the Director. Not your normal employee.

Was he in Dallas? Probably. I know not to trust your word however.

Please don't worry. I am not trying to convince you of anything. You are a lost cause. Put your trust in what the goverment tells you, instead. After all, we have a democracy.

[xrayzebra]

Forget the Bush connections to the CIA and many people who happened to be at Daly Plaza, this video says all you need to know...


Mwt_xKs2hFE

Hey dan where was Bush on 9-11, was he in New York. You need to
check. He may have helped shoot the ray gun at the towers. Oh,
I forgot it was a crap cannon, oh, heck. It was planted explosives in
building seven or North tower or South tower.

Dan you have me confused with all this inside information you give us.:lol

[Nbadan]

Need more damning evidence?

Amory Roberts and the Secret Service Standdown (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5770984395481454022)

[Nbadan]

Nixon was in Dallas the day and night before Kennedy was shot. And the French Intelligence Agency informed the US govt hours after Kennedy was shot that a well known French terrorist and assassin,Jean Souetre, was in Dallas. Strange how all these different players were in Dallas.

E. Howard Hunt and, perhaps, Gerald Ford, in deathbed confessions, claim LBJ was involved...


What Nixon apparently failed to tell Hess was that the major story from his meeting with reporters in Dallas was certain to fuel the anger of some Texans toward Kennedy. The headline in the Dallas Morning News on November 22 said: "Nixon Predicts JFK May Drop Johnson." Vice President Lyndon Johnson was, of course, a Texan.

On the morning after the assassination, Nixon convened a meeting of Republican leaders at his New York apartment. Those assembled were "already assessing how this event would affect or recreate the possibilities of Nixon running for president," according to Hess.

Boasting that he was the mastermind of a Mob/CIA plot to kill President Kennedy, Chicago godfather Sam Giancana told relatives he was in Dallas on Nov. 22, 1963 to supervise that plot. Giancana claimed that both "Richard Nixon and Lyndon Johnson knew about the whole damn thing"— adding that he had met with both future presidents in Dallas "immediately prior to the assassination."

Link (http://www.crimemagazine.com/03/richardnixon,1014.htm)

[Nbadan]

The Deathbed Confession of E. Howard Hunt...

fHZl91gN63g

[Nbadan]

They tried to blame LBJ...

b-L5xYwb2ls

[Nbadan]

Ruby's prison letter...

TUiZBmm9xUA

[Nbadan]

Oswald's midnight press conference..

yuudRsNewsM

[Nbadan]

Jack Ruby was at Parkland Hospital..

vNBJkbnNPcE

[Twisted_Dawg]

Oswald's midnight press conference..

yuudRsNewsM

Perhaps Oswald's most telling statement was when he was first hauled into the Dallas police station and he blurted at reporters, "I'm just a patsy in all this."

"IN ALL THIS" indicates this was a conspiracy.

"I'M JUST A PATSY..." Oswald knew he had been framed and set up to take the fall.

[Nbadan]

"I'M JUST A PATSY..." Oswald knew he had been framed and set up to take the fall.

No doubt...it was the modus operandi for assassinations....conspire to blame the lone nut who didn't have a clue what was really going on...

[tonylongoriafan]

unwar this thread

[Nbadan]

Lee Harvey Oswald immediately after being arrested at the Texas theater..

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/mugbig.jpg

[Twisted_Dawg]

Funny that the powers say he fired three shots from an old WWII rifle, then fired two shots from a handgun......but when given a chemical test to check his hands for gun powder residue, none was found indicating he had not fired a gun. And his prints were not found on the rifle after the FBI tested it, but a palm print of Oswald's mysteriously turned up o the rifle after the rifle returned to Dallas.

[DarrinS]

Nbadan and Galileo like to gargle each other's balls. There is not a conspiracy too wacky for them to fall for.


Truth of the matter is, Lee Harvey Oswald killed JFK.


DSBXW1-VGmM

[BradLohaus]

The US House Select Committee on Assassinations said in 1979 that Oswald was probably involved in a conspiracy to kill the president, but that it didn't involve any foreign government or US intelligence agency.

Now here is G. Robert Blakey, the chief council on that committee, in 2003:


I am no longer confident that the Central Intelligence Agency co-operated with the committee. My reasons follow:

The committee focused, among other things, on (1) Oswald, (2) in New Orleans, (3) in the months before he went to Dallas, and, in particular, (4) his attempt to infiltrate an anti-Castro group, the Directorio Revolucionario Estudiantil or DRE.

These were crucial issues in the Warren Commission's investigation; they were crucial issues in the committee's investigation. The Agency knew it full well in 1964; the Agency knew it full well in 1976-79. Outrageously, the Agency did not tell the Warren Commission or our committee that it had financial and other connections with the DRE, a group that Oswald had direct dealings with!

What contemporaneous reporting is or was in the Agency's DRE files? We will never know, for the Agency now says that no reporting is in the existing files. Are we to believe that its files were silent in 1964 or during our investigation?

I don't believe it for a minute. Money was involved; it had to be documented. Period. End of story. The files and the Agency agents connected to the DRE should have been made available to the commission and the committee. That the information in the files and the agents who could have supplemented it were not made available to the commission and the committee amounts to willful obstruction of justice.

Obviously, too, it did not identify the agent who was its contact with the DRE at the crucial time that Oswald was in contact with it: George Joannides.

During the relevant period, the committee's chief contact with the Agency on a day-to-day basis was Scott Breckinridge. (I put aside our point of contact with the office of chief counsel, Lyle Miller) We sent researchers to the Agency to request and read documents. The relationship between our young researchers, law students who came with me from Cornell, was anything but "happy." Nevertheless, we were getting and reviewing documents. Breckinridge, however, suggested that he create a new point of contact person who might "facilitate" the process of obtaining and reviewing materials. He introduced me to Joannides, who, he said, he had arranged to bring out of retirement to help us. He told me that he had experience in finding documents; he thought he would be of help to us.

I was not told of Joannides' background with the DRE, a focal point of the investigation. Had I known who he was, he would have been a witness who would have been interrogated under oath by the staff or by the committee. He would never have been acceptable as a point of contact with us to retrieve documents. In fact, I have now learned, as I note above, that Joannides was the point of contact between the Agency and DRE during the period Oswald was in contact with DRE.

That the Agency would put a "material witness" in as a "filter" between the committee and its quests for documents was a flat out breach of the understanding the committee had with the Agency that it would co-operate with the investigation.

The committee's researchers immediately complained to me that Joannides was, in fact, not facilitating but obstructing our obtaining of documents. I contacted Breckinridge and Joannides. Their side of the story wrote off the complaints to the young age and attitude of the people.

They were certainly right about one question: the committee's researchers did not trust the Agency. Indeed, that is precisely why they were in their positions. We wanted to test the Agency's integrity. I wrote off the complaints. I was wrong; the researchers were right. I now believe the process lacked integrity precisely because of Joannides.

For these reasons, I no longer believe that we were able to conduct an appropriate investigation of the Agency and its relationship to Oswald. Anything that the Agency told us that incriminated, in some fashion, the Agency may well be reliable as far as it goes, but the truth could well be that it materially understates the matter.

What the Agency did not give us none but those involved in the Agency can know for sure. I do not believe any denial offered by the Agency on any point. The law has long followed the rule that if a person lies to you on one point, you may reject all of his testimony.

I now no longer believe anything the Agency told the committee any further than I can obtain substantial corroboration for it from outside the Agency for its veracity. We now know that the Agency withheld from the Warren Commission the CIA-Mafia plots to kill Castro. Had the commission known of the plots, it would have followed a different path in its investigation. The Agency unilaterally deprived the commission of a chance to obtain the full truth, which will now never be known.

Significantly, the Warren Commission's conclusion that the agencies of the government co-operated with it is, in retrospect, not the truth.

We also now know that the Agency set up a process that could only have been designed to frustrate the ability of the committee in 1976-79 to obtain any information that might adversely affect the Agency.

Many have told me that the culture of the Agency is one of prevarication and dissimulation and that you cannot trust it or its people. Period. End of story.

I am now in that camp.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/oswald/interviews/blakey.html#addendum

I wonder why the CIA just so happened to choose George Joannides to be that "facilitator" - the same guy who was the CIA's point of contact with the same anti-castro group that Oswald was involved with. They even brought Joannides out of retirement for this job. It's probably just a coincidence; a coincidence that Scott Breckinridge, the committee's main daily contact person in the CIA during these investigations, somehow forgot to mention to Blakey. What are the odds?

The CIA is one amazingly untrustworthy organization.

[Twisted_Dawg]

David Atlee Phillips, a former CIA handler who was thought to be Oswald's handler, was quoted years after the assassination that he thought "a roque element of American intelligience (CIA?)" shot Kennedy.

Then E. Howard Hunt on his deathbed intimated there was a conspiracy to kill Kennedy.

When two former high ranking CIA employees basically tell you Kennedy was murdered as part of a conspiracy, most likely from the intelligence community, isn't that enough proof?

[DarrinS]

David Atlee Phillips, a former CIA handler who was thought to be Oswald's handler, was quoted years after the assassination that he thought "a roque element of American intelligience (CIA?)" shot Kennedy.

Then E. Howard Hunt on his deathbed intimated there was a conspiracy to kill Kennedy.

When two former high ranking CIA employees basically tell you Kennedy was murdered as part of a conspiracy, most likely from the intelligence community, isn't that enough proof?



you people would do yourself a big favor by watching this video

DSBXW1-VGmM

[doobs]

I did it. I work for the government. Isn't that enough proof?

[BradLohaus]

I didn't hear anything in the video about the US House Select Committee on Assassinations; it does talk about Oswald being the lone gunman, that the mob had nothing to do with it, and the findings of the Warren Commission. In 2003 the chief council of the HSCA said, "Significantly, the Warren Commission's conclusion that the agencies of the government co-operated with it is, in retrospect, not the truth...We also now know that the Agency set up a process that could only have been designed to frustrate the ability of the committee in 1976-79 to obtain any information that might adversely affect the Agency."

Why did the CIA bring out of retirement George Joannides, the agent who had had contact with the same anti-Castro group as Oswald, and at the same time as Oswald, and put him in charge of "fascilitating" the research of the HSCA, and without telling anybody in the HSCA about Joannides's background? As Blakey said, Joannides should have been testifying, not working in the investigation. The HSCA's reserachers complained that Joannides was acting as a "filter", not a "fascilitator". What was he filtering? We'll never know, thanks to the CIA's obstructions. Did they go to all of this trouble just to make sure that nobody in the agency would look bad? Is it not natural to wonder just what the CIA was ultimately trying to hide?

Whatever the exact truth is, the CIA didn't look very interested in finding it. That agency has lied to the citizens of this country many times and it has engaged in terrible activities from the beginning. I don't know why anyone would trust anything that they are involved in, which very much includes these investigations into Oswald's activities before he assassinated JFK.

[Wild Cobra]

Nbadan and Galileo like to gargle each other's balls. There is not a conspiracy too wacky for them to fall for.


Truth of the matter is, Lee Harvey Oswald killed JFK.


DSBXW1-VGmM

Yep, it has been proven that he was able to do so. No question in my mind.

Just because most people cannot fire the rifle that good, doesn't mean it cannot be done!

[Galileo]

Nbadan and Galileo like to gargle each other's balls. There is not a conspiracy too wacky for them to fall for.


Truth of the matter is, Lee Harvey Oswald killed JFK.


DSBXW1-VGmM

Oswald never got a chance to cross-examine adverse witnesses against him during his trial by a jury of his peers. Oops, the jurors weren't his peers either.

[Nbadan]

Oswald never got a chance to cross-examine adverse witnesses against him during his trial by a jury of his peers. Oops, the jurors weren't his peers either.

Well, Darrin did say he was guilty, and Darrin does have a track record here....

[Nbadan]

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h52/Tiktaalik/OswaldFerrieCAP.jpg
After the Kennedy assassination, David Ferrie told investigators he never knew Lee Oswald. "I never heard David Ferrie mention Lee Harvey Oswald," said Layton Martens, a former C.A.P. Cadet and a close friend to Ferrie until Ferrie's death in 1967
Who Was Lee Harvey Oswald?
by Joan Mellen
Copyright 2008 Joan Mellen. All Rights Reserved.
(ed note: this essay first appeared on www.joanmellen.com )


This talk was delivered on October 5, 2008 at the Wecht Institute's Symposium: Making Sense of the Sixties

EXCERPT...

Drawing on what we know as certain, the Oswald who is recognizable to us was born in New Orleans, and seems rarely to have been deprived of the company of others. Certainly, he was not a loner in Dallas where he was offered the friendship of CIA asset and so-called oil geologist (he had no degree in the subject) George de Mohrenschildt. De Mohrenschildt reported to the Domestic Contact Service (00) in Dallas on Haitian matters, the existing record shows. The quintessential unreliable narrator, a year before his death, de Mohrenschildt targeted Haroldson Lafayette Hunt as the sponsor of the Kennedy assassination. Coincidentally, H. L. Hunt was unique among Texas oil men in being a lifelong antagonist of the CIA, as has been his son, Nelson Bunker Hunt. It was, perhaps, de Mohrenschildt’s final Agency assignment.

Nor was Oswald particularly solitary in New Orleans during the summer of 1963 where his presence was noted at anti-Castro training camps north of Lake Pontchartrain.

Almost from the moment of his arrival in New Orleans from Texas in April 1963, Oswald sought the acquaintance of CIA and FBI assets. He attempted to infiltrate anti-Castro groups. By the time he was arrested on Canal Street in August, he was so well acquainted with the FBI field office that he told the officer interviewing him, Lieutenant Francis Martello of New Orleans police intelligence, “Call the FBI. Tell them you have Lee Oswald in custody.” It was a moment that Martello neglected to describe to the Warren Commission which he held in utter contempt until the end of his life, as former police intelligence officer Robert Buras, working for the House Select Committee, and a long-time Martello acquaintance, told me.

Supporting the conclusion that the CIA was behind the Kennedy assassination is the fact that in New Orleans Oswald associated only with people with intelligence connections, beginning with Arnesto Rodriguez, an FBI informant with family members rooted in the CIA’s clandestine services. Rodriguez was one of FBI Special Agent Warren de Brueys’ informants. One day Oswald appeared at Rodriguez’s office at the International Trade Mart building at 124 Camp Street. He wanted to help the Cubans, Oswald said. He wanted to be part of the training camps. Rodriguez was suspicious. Who had sent Oswald to him? he wondered. How did Oswald know that there was “a training camp across the lake from us, north of Lake Pontchartrain?” It was top secret at the time, yet Oswald knew about it.

Pilot David Ferrie was a CIA asset whom Oswald knew from his youth in the Civil Air Patrol and with whom he renewed his acquaintance that summer. They were joined in their travels by Clay Shaw, a CIA operative whose activities were charted by at least five CIA components. The sources who observed Oswald with Shaw and Ferrie in those hamlets north of Baton Rouge are unimpeachable, and include Dr. Frank Silva, the medical director of the East Louisiana State Hospital at Jackson where Oswald applied for a job.

Mary Ferrell (http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/Essay_-_Who_Was_Lee_Harvey_Oswald)

[Nbadan]

JAMES WILCOTT'S TESTIMONY

James B. Wilcott, a former CIA accountant, swore in a secret session of the House Select Committee on Assassinations that he was told by other CIA employees that Lee Harvey Oswald was paid by the CIA, and that money he himself had disbursed was for "Oswald or the Oswald project." The HSCA report indicated that other CIA employees discounted Wilcott's testimony, but none of their statements were included in the report. The document excerpted below was acquired by John Armstrong after his JFK Lancer NID97 presentation. Selected pages from the National Archives are presented graphically; the remainder, to preserve bandwidth, are excerpted typographically. A link to the complete text of Wilcott's testimony is provided near the bottom of this page.


EXECUTIVE SESSION
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY
WEDNESDAY, MARCH 22, 1978
House of Representatives,
John F. Kennedy Subcommittee
of the Select Committee on
Assassinations,
Washington, D.C.

<. . . . >

TESTIMONY OF JAMES B. WILCOTT, A FORMER EMPLOYEE
OF THE CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY:


Mr. Goldsmith. For the record, would you please state your name and address and occupation?

Mr. Wilcott. My name is James B. Wilcott. My address is 2761 Atlantic Street, in Concord, and my occupation is electronic technician.

< . . . . >

Mr. Goldsmith. And, Mr. Wilcott, is it true that you are a former employee with the CIA and that you are here today testifying voluntarily without a subpoena?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. During what years did you work for the CIA?

Mr. Wilcott. I worked from the years, May, of 1957 to, April, of 1966.

Mr. Goldsmith. And in what general capacity did you work with the CIA?

Mr. Wilcott. All in the finance--in accounting all of the time.

<. . . .>

Mr. Goldsmith. Drawing your attention to the period immediately after the assassination of President Kennedy, at that time, did you come across any information concerning Lee Harvey Oswald's relationship with the CIA?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, I did.

Mr. Goldsmith. And will you tell the Committee what that relationship was?

Mr. Wilcott. Well, it was my understanding that Lee Harvey Oswald was an employee of the agency and was an agent of the agency.

Mr. Goldsmith. What do you mean by the term "agent?"

Mr. Wilcott. That he was a regular employee, receiving a full-time salary for agent work for doing CIA operational work.

Mr. Goldsmith. How did this information concerning Oswald first come to your attention?

Mr. Wilcott. The first time I heard about Oswald being connected in any way with CIA was the day after the Kennedy assassination.

Mr. Goldsmith. And how did that come to your attention?

Mr. Wilcott. Well, I was on day duty for the station. It was a guard-type function at the station, which I worked for overtime. There was a lot of excitement going on at the station after the Kennedy assassination.

Towards the end of my tour of duty, I heard certain things about Oswald somehow being connected with the agency, and I didn't really believe this when I heard it, and I thought it was absurd. Then, as time went on, I began to hear more things in that line.

Mr. Goldsmith. I think we had better go over that one more time. When, exactly, was the very first time that you heard or came across information that Oswald was an agent?

Mr. Wilcott. I heard references to it the day after the assassination.

Mr. Goldsmith. And who made these references to Oswald being an agent of the CIA?

Mr. Wilcott. I can't remember the exact persons. There was talk about it going on at the station, and several months following at the station.

Mr. Goldsmith. How many people made this reference to Oswald being an agent of the CIA?

Mr. Wilcott. At least--there was at least six or seven people, specifically, who said that they either knew or believed Oswald to be an agent of the CIA.

Mr. Goldsmith. Was Jerry Fox one of the people that made this allegation?

Mr. Wilcott. To the best of my recollection, yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. And who is Jerry Fox?

Mr. Wilcott. Jerry Fox was a Case Officer for his branch, the Soviet Russia Branch, Station, who purchased information from the Soviets.

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Wilcott, did I ask you to prepare a list of CIA Case Officers working at the Station in 1963?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, you did.

<. . . .>

Mr. Goldsmith. At the time that this allegation first came to your attention, did you discuss it with anyone?

Mr. Wilcott. Oh, yes. I discussed it with my friends and the people that I was associating with socially.

Mr. Goldsmith. Who were your friends that you discussed this with?

Mr. Wilcott. George Breen, Ed Luck, and .

Mr. Goldsmith. Who was George Breen?

Mr. Wilcott. George Breen was a person in Registry, who was my closest friend while I was in .

Mr. Goldsmith. Was he a CIA employee?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, he was.

Mr. Goldsmith. And would he corroborate your observation that Oswald was an agent?

Mr. Wilcott. I don't know.

Mr. Goldsmith. At the time that this allegation first came to your attention, did you learn the name of Oswald's Case Officer at the CIA?

Mr. Wilcott. No.

Mr. Goldsmith. Were there any other times during your stay with the CIA at Station that you came across information that Oswald had been a CIA agent?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. When was that?

Mr. Wilcott. The specific incident was soon after the Kennedy assassination, where an agent, a Case Officer--I am sure it was a Case Officer--came up to my window to draw money, and he specifically said in the conversation that ensued, he specifically said, "Well, Jim, the money that I drew the last couple of weeks ago or so was money" either for the Oswald project or for Oswald.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you remember the name of this Case Officer?

Mr. Wilcott. No, I don't.

Mr Goldsmith. Do you remember when specifically this conversation took place?

Mr. Wilcott. Not specifically, only generally.

Mr. Goldsmith. How many months after the assassination was this?

Mr. Wilcott. I think it must have been two or three months after the assassination.

Mr. Goldsmith. And do you remember were this conversation took place?

Mr. Wilcott. It was right at my window, my disbursing cage window.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you discuss this information with anyone?

Mr. Wilcott. Oh, yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. With whom?

Mr. Wilcott. Certainly with George Breen, the circle of social friends that we had.

Mr. Goldsmith. How do you spell last name?

Mr. Wilcott. (spelling).

<. . . .>

Mr. Goldsmith. Did this Case Officer tell you what Oswald's cryptonym was?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, he mentioned the cryptonym specifically under which the money was drawn.

Mr. Goldsmith. And what did he tell you the cryptonym was?

Mr. Wilcott. I cannot remember.

Mr. Goldsmith. What was your response to this revelation as to what Oswald's cryptonym was? Did you write it down or do anything?

Mr. Wilcott. No; I think that I looked through my advance book--and I had a book where the advances on project were run, and I leafed through them, and I must have at least leafed through them to see if what he said was true.


Link (http://home.wi.rr.com/harveyandlee/Wilcott/Wilcott.htm)

The House Select Committee found evidence for conspiracy in the assassination of President Kennedy and recommended to the Justice Department that they re-open the investigation. The incoming Reagan Department of Justice didn't bother.

[Nbadan]

Buell Frazier drove Oswald to work on the day of the assassination....his testimony was central to the case against Oswald...

Oswald co-worker no longer silent about JFK assassination role


...Officials assumed that the package Oswald carried to work that morning was the Italian-made rifle he used to kill Kennedy.

Mr. Frazier still doesn't believe it.

When Oswald got in his car that morning, Mr. Frazier hardly noticed the bundle Oswald laid on the back seat.

"He told me he was taking some curtain rods for his room," Mr. Frazier said. "I didn't think much about it."

Mr. Frazier parked his car behind the depository building and revved his engine for a few moments, charging his low battery, and watched Oswald walk about 200 yards into the building with the package under his arm.

In his testimony before the Warren Commission, Mr. Frazier said the brown paper package Oswald carried that morning was too short to contain a rifle. Oswald cupped the package in his hand, he said, and it fit under his armpit.

In Washington, Mr. Frazier said, he was "pressured" to change his recollection. In the days afterward, he was badgered by the media, harassed by people who didn't understand his relationship to Oswald and even became fearful for his life.

His testimony was important because investigators had proved that Oswald bought the rifle used in the JFK slaying and had found a matching palm print on the stock, but they had no proof that he had it with him that day.

Ms. Randle, who was also a leading witness, said recently that when she and Mr. Frazier testified before the Warren Commission, "they tried to get us to say that package was much longer than we recalled, but that wasn't true."

The commission kept pushing, Mr. Frazier said. Could it be that he was traumatized by the horror of what happened or embarrassed that he hadn't been more observant?

"I know what I saw," he said, "and I've never changed one bit."

Size dispute

Hundreds of conspiracy theories have spawned thousands of books and articles since the tragedy, but the official investigation concluded that Oswald shot Kennedy from the Texas School Book Depository and acted alone.

The Warren Commission cited eyewitnesses to the president's shooting and the later assault of Officer J.D. Tippit and knew that Oswald had bought the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle for $12.95 from a Chicago mail-order house.

A brown paper sack with an Oswald palm and fingerprint on it was found close to the sixth-floor window where Oswald sat perched in wait that day.

Oswald's claim that he was carrying curtain rods for his room carried little weight with investigators because no curtain rods were ever found in the depository, and Oswald's room on Beckley Street in Oak Cliff already had curtains.

In a book he's writing, Mr. Frazier describes how he and his sister assembled packages with wrapping paper for hours, trying to show Warren Commission lawyers the size of the package Oswald carried that day.

In its report, released in the fall of 1964, the commission said:

"The Warren Commission has weighed the visual recollection of Frazier and Mrs. Randle against the evidence here presented ... and has concluded that Frazier and Randle are mistaken as to the length of the bag."

The FBI lab reported that the disassembled rifle stock measured just under 35 inches long, and the homemade bag measured 38 inches.

"I wasn't surprised," Mr. Frazier said. "They seemed to have a prearranged agenda when they questioned Linnie and me. Our refusal to agree with their agenda simply caused them to state that we were mistaken."

Their testimony fostered early public doubt about the commission's investigation.

President Gerald Ford, who in 1963-64 was a Michigan congressman and a Warren Commission member, told reporters in Dallas in early 1964 that he thought Mr. Frazier had been mistaken.

"I don't believe for a moment that he was consciously lying," Mr. Ford said then. "This is a fine young man – I've talked to him – who recalls seeing an object a certain size. But if Oswald was carrying curtain rods, as Mr. Frazier claimed he told him, I am a bit confused as to what happened to them."

Mr. Ford told a Dallas Morning News reporter that day: "I have never believed Mr. Frazier was involved in anything more than being a good neighbor, a good friend. I don't think he even knew Oswald very well."

Actually, Mr. Frazier said, "I didn't know his last name until that day. We all just knew him as Lee. I thought that was his last name."

Dallas News (http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/yahoolatestnews/stories/111608dnentfrazierjfk.3d76e89.html?npc)

[Nbadan]

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h52/Tiktaalik/oswaldimpersonator-1.jpg
The CIA told the Warren Commission that they had photos of Lee Harvey Oswald at the Cuban embassy.

This is the fellow in their photos, a guy who apparently caused a commotion about his intentions to head to the Soviet Union:

Oswald, the CIA and Mexico City

By John Newman, Ph.D.
Copyright ©1999 by John Newman.
All Rights Reserved.

I. The Rosetta Stone


The Assassination Records Review Board finished its search more than a year ago—a search for records relating to the murder of a president thirty-six years ago. Surprisingly, the passage of time has not managed to erode or cover over all of the important evidence. On the contrary, the work of the Review Board has uncovered important new leads in the case. I will leave medical and ballistic forensics to others. I will confine myself to document forensics, an area for which the work of the board had been nothing less than spectacular. More specifically, I will confine myself to the documentary record concerning Lee Harvey Oswald’s 1963 visit to Mexico City.

In 1978, the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) completed its work, including a report on Oswald’s activities in Mexico written by Eddie Lopez and Dan Hardway. Our first glimpses of their report began shortly after the 1993 passage of the JFK Records Act. Not even all the redactions of those early versions could hide the seminal discoveries in that work. While Lopez couched his words in careful language, he suggested that Oswald might have been impersonated while he was in Mexico City just weeks before the assassination. Lopez was more forthright when I interviewed him about this in 1995. Armed with more CIA documents and the first Russian commentary (Nechiporenko’s book, Passport to Assassination), I went further in my own Oswald and the CIA (Carroll & Graf: 1995) in advancing the argument that Oswald was impersonated in the Mexican capitol. Specifically, someone pretending to be Oswald made a series of telephone calls between 28 September and 1 October, allegedly to and from the Cuban and Soviet consulates in Mexico City.

I concluded then, that, based on the content of the CIA Mexico City telephone transcripts alone, the speaker purporting to be Oswald was probably an impostor. I will not repeat my lengthy discussion here, other than to summarize it in this way: the speaker’s words were incongruous with the experiences we can be reasonably certain Oswald underwent. For reasons still obscure, the CIA has lied consistently for these past several decades about the tapes from which those transcripts were made. The Agency concocted the story that the tapes were routinely destroyed before the assassination. It is perhaps true that some tapes were destroyed before the assassination. But Lopez uncovered FBI documents containing detailed accounts of how two of the tapes were listened to after the assassination by FBI agents familiar with Oswald’s voice.

More evidence would come in time. Shortly after the passage of the JFK Records Act, the public gained access to a telephone transcript the day after the assassination in which FBI Director Hoover informs President Johnson that it is not Oswald’s voice on the tapes. The Review Board diligently followed these leads and settled the matter when they found CIA documents in which the Agency itself explicitly states that some of the tapes were reviewed after the assassination. The CIA’s continued silence on the matter of the tapes stands, like a giant beacon, pointing the way forward to the investigator. The impersonation of Oswald in Mexico by someone who drew attention to an Oswald connection to a KGB assassination officer may prove to be the Rosetta stone of this case.

Before going further, I once again pay tribute to Peter Dale Scott, who wrote of these matters as early as 1995, advancing his "Phase I-Phase II hypothesis" on largely deaf ears. I will not repeat his lengthy discussion here, other than to summarize it in this way: In Phase I, immediately after the assassination, previously planted evidence of a Cuban/Kremlin plot surfaced in Oswald’s files; this, in turn, precipitated Phase II, in which a lone-nut cover-up was erected to prevent a nuclear war.

In Oswald and the CIA, I deliberately steered clear of the conspiracy-anti-conspiracy vortex in order to set out some of the facts concerning Oswald’s pre-assassination files. Since then, the cumulative weight of the evidence uncovered by the Review Board has led me to the conclusion that the Oswald impersonation can best be explained in terms of a plot to murder the president. I remain open to other interpretations and fresh analyses by fellow researchers, and I understand that new evidence could corroborate or undermine this hypothesis. What follows is a first stab at explaining, in a short and simple way, how those plotting the president’s murder may have left their fingerprints in the files.

CONTINUED... (http://www.ctka.net/pr999-osciamex.html)

[ChumpDumper]

Just tell us who did it.

[Nbadan]

Who benefited most from the assassination?


The publisher of this, Ford's final book and who helped author the text, does believe there was a conspiracy and that Ford knew even more than he told his publisher and the world. Ford admits here for the first time that the CIA "did" destroy pertinent documents, covering up the investigation of the assassination. Ford shares many other breath-taking admissions with the reader in this, his final book, written three years prior to his own death.


I seem to remember a clip of the author on cable news stating that Ford told him, while on his deathbed, that LBJ was involved in the conspiracy. Personally, I think Ford might have said this to draw attention away from Nixon.

Another interesting excerpt from the book:



"I completely replaced cabinet and staff. You may recognize some of my appointees:
George H.W. Bush - Director, CIA
Richard Cheney - Chief of Staff
Donald Rumsfeld - Secretary of Defense
Alan Greenspan - Chairman, Council of Economic Advisors"

Link (http://flatsigned.com/JFK-FORD2.shtml)

[doobs]

Who benefited most from the assassination?


It's like what Lenin said . . .

(I am the Walrus)

[ChumpDumper]

So Ford's publisher killed JFK.

[Nbadan]

The DEATH of DOROTHY KILGALLEN
A Key Chapter from "Justice For JFK"
by Robert D. Morningstar


On November 8, 1965, Dorothy Kilgallen, was found dead in her apartment shortly after returning from Dallas where she had interviewed Jack Ruby and had conducted her own investigation of the JFK murder during several trips to cover the Ruby trial.

She had revealed secret transcripts of Ruby's testimony in her column. Kilgallen had met with Ruby. She had learned of a meeting three weeks before the assassination at Ruby's "Carousel", the Dallas underworld's merry-go-round where the "Big D" mobsters wheeled around.

(snip)

Lee Israel, author of "Kilgallen", reports that that Ruby, himself a TV fan of Dorothy Kilgallen, had taken a liking to her during the trial. According to Israel, he respected her more than any other reporter. She had gained his confidence and had several conversations with him in the courtroom. She was given a five minute session alone with Ruby. Some writers have stretched this to a half-hour, others deny it.

Regardless, it is a fact that when Dorothy returned to New York, she told friends that she had discovered that Ruby and the slain Officer J.D. Tippit had been friends. They had been seen together in Ruby's Carousel Club at a meeting 2 weeks before the assassination in the company of Bernard Weissman, who had placed the "JFK-Wanted for Treason" newspaper ad in Dallas newspapers on November 22nd, 1963. Studying the Warren Commission Report, Killgallen deduced that the meeting had also been reported to Chief Justice Warren AND that the identity of "the fourth man",which she had been unable to ascertain, had been reported to Warren as "a rich Texas oil man", as Earl Warren described him in the official transcript.

She told Israel that she had discovered something that was going to break the whole JFK assassination mystery wide open. She told the same story to her next door neighbor, her hairdresser, her agent, her publisher, and the producer and host of "Nightlife".

(snip)

On Sunday November 8, Dorothy Kilgallen was found dead, sitting fully dressed, upright in bed, early in the morning. The New York City Police investigated and the coroner found that Dorothy Kilgallen had died from ingestion of a lethal combination of alchohol and barbituates. All her notes and the article on which she had been working to "blow the JFK assassination wide open" also disappeared.

Link (http://www.jfkresearch.com/morningstar/killgallen.htm)

[johnsmith]

So Ford's publisher killed JFK.

:lmao

[Galileo]

Just tell us who did it.

Here's video of two shooters, one of whom fired the fatal shot:

Evidence of Revision (1 of 5) : The Assassinations of Kennedy and Oswald
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=666048701355447870&ei=RGssSYevLYaq-AHe4tC_BQ&q=evidence+of+revision+part+1+jfk&hl=en

One shooter is shown at the 18 minute mark, the other after the 19 minute mark.

[johnsmith]

I have a question for Galileo and Dan,

Has anything involving the United States Government ever just been the truth? Have they ever once told us the truth about a single monumental event in United States History?

If so, which one(s)?

[ChumpDumper]

Here's video of two shooters, one of whom fired the fatal shot:

Evidence of Revision (1 of 5) : The Assassinations of Kennedy and Oswald
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=666048701355447870&ei=RGssSYevLYaq-AHe4tC_BQ&q=evidence+of+revision+part+1+jfk&hl=en

One shooter is shown at the 18 minute mark, the other after the 19 minute mark.:lol

[Galileo]

I have a question for Galileo and Dan,

Has anything involving the United States Government ever just been the truth? Have they ever once told us the truth about a single monumental event in United States History?

If so, which one(s)?

James Madison told the truth about the War of 1812. Grover Cleveland told the truth when he issued his veto statements. Congressman Ron Paul tells the truth about everything.

[johnsmith]

James Madison told the truth about the War of 1812. Grover Cleveland told the truth when he issued his veto statements. Congressman Ron Paul tells the truth about everything.

Madison greatly exaggerated the severity in which the British Navy was capturing American vessels.


Cleveland was drunk and his advisors issued those statements.


See, anyone can just come up with shit by making up stories.

[Galileo]

Madison greatly exaggerated the severity in which the British Navy was capturing American vessels.




Can you cite any evidence for this outrageous comment, cross-referenced with Madison's War Message?

[BradLohaus]

Operation Northwoods has to be mentioned in any discussion of the JFK assassination. There are a number of places to read it, including the National Archives, but here’s a link to site where you can view each of the 15 pages separately and clearly:

http://www.smeggys.co.uk/operation_northwoods.php

Wikipedia has a summary; here’s some of it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods



Operation Northwoods, or Northwoods, was a false flag conspiracy plan, proposed within the United States government in 1962. The plan called for CIA or other operatives to kill innocent people and commit acts of terrorism in U.S. cities to create public support for a war against Castro-led Cuba. One plan was to "develop a Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington".

This operation is especially notable in that it included plans for hijackings and bombings followed by the use of phony evidence that would blame the terrorist acts on a foreign government, namely Cuba.

The plan states, "The desired resultant from the execution of this plan would be to place the United States in the apparent position of suffering defensible grievances from a rash and irresponsible government of Cuba and to develop an international image of a Cuban threat to peace in the Western Hemisphere."

Operation Northwoods was drafted by the Joint Chiefs of Staff and signed by then-Chairman Lyman Lemnitzer, and sent to the Secretary of Defense.
Several other proposals were listed, including the real or simulated actions against various U.S military and civilian targets. Operation Northwoods was part of the U.S. government's Cuban Project (Operation Mongoose) anti-Castro initiative. It was never officially accepted or executed.

Origins and public release
The main proposal was presented in a document entitled "Justification for US Military Intervention in Cuba (TS)," a collection of draft memoranda written by the Department of Defense (DoD) and the Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS) representative to the Caribbean Survey Group.[1] (The parenthetical "TS" in the title of the document is an initialism for "Top Secret.") The document was presented by the Joint Chiefs of Staff to Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara on March 13 as a preliminary submission for planning purposes. The Joint Chiefs of Staff recommended that both the covert and overt aspects of any such operation be assigned to them.

The previously secret document was originally made public on November 18, 1997, by the John F. Kennedy Assassination Records Review Board,[2] a U.S. federal agency overseeing the release of government records related to John F. Kennedy's assassination.[3][4][5][6][7] A total 1521 pages of once-secret military records covering 1962 to 1964 were concomitantly declassified by said Review Board.

"Appendix to Enclosure A" and "Annex to Appendix to Enclosure A" of the Northwoods document were first published online by the National Security Archive on November 6, 1998 in a joint venture with CNN as part of CNN's 1998 Cold War television documentary series[8][9]—specifically, as a documentation supplement to "Episode 10: Cuba," which aired on November 29, 1998.[10][11] "Annex to Appendix to Enclosure A" is the section of the document which contains the proposals to stage terrorist attacks.
The Northwoods document was published online in a more complete form (i.e., including cover memoranda) by the National Security Archive on April 30, 2001.[12]

James Bamford Summary
Journalist James Bamford summarized Operation Northwoods in his April 24, 2001 book Body of Secrets:
"Operation Northwoods, which had the written approval of the Chairman and every member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, called for innocent people to be shot on American streets; for boats carrying refugees fleeing Cuba to be sunk on the high seas; for a wave of violent terrorism to be launched in Washington, D.C., Miami, and elsewhere. People would be framed for bombings they did not commit; planes would be hijacked. Using phony evidence, all of it would be blamed on Castro, thus giving Lemnitzer and his cabal the excuse, as well as the public and international backing, they needed to launch their war."[13

Related Operation Mongoose proposals
In addition to Operation Northwoods, under the Operation Mongoose program the U.S. Department of Defense had a number of similar proposals to be taken against the Cuban regime of Fidel Castro.

Twelve of these proposals come from a February 2, 1962 memorandum entitled "Possible Actions to Provoke, Harass or Disrupt Cuba," written by Brig. Gen. William H. Craig and submitted to Brig. Gen. Edward Lansdale, the commander of the Operation Mongoose project.[14][5][6][7]

The memorandum outlines Operation Bingo, a plan to, in its words, "create an incident which has the appearance of an attack on U.S. facilities (GMO) in Cuba, thus providing an excuse for use of U.S. military might to overthrow the current government of Cuba."

It also includes Operation Dirty Trick, a plot to blame Castro if the 1962 Mercury manned space flight carrying John Glenn crashed, saying

"The objective is to provide irrevocable proof that, should the MERCURY manned orbit flight fail, the fault lies with the Communists et al Cuba [sic]." It continues, "This to be accomplished by manufacturing various pieces of evidence which would prove electronic interference on the part of the Cubans."

Even after General Lemnitzer lost his job as the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the Joint Chiefs of Staff still planned false-flag pretext operations at least into 1963. A different U.S. Department of Defense policy paper created in 1963 discussed a plan to make it appear that Cuba had attacked a member of the Organization of American States (OAS) so that the United States could retaliate. The U.S. Department of Defense document says of one of the scenarios,

"A contrived 'Cuban' attack on an OAS member could be set up, and the attacked state could be urged to take measures of self-defense and request assistance from the U.S. and OAS."

The plan expresses confidence that by this action

"the U.S. could almost certainly obtain the necessary two-thirds support among OAS members for collective action against Cuba."[15][13]

Included in the nations the Joint Chiefs suggested as targets for covert attacks were Jamaica and Trinidad-Tobago. Since both were members of the British Commonwealth, the Joint Chiefs hoped that by secretly attacking them and then falsely blaming Cuba, the United States could incite the people of the United Kingdom into supporting a war against Castro.[13] As the U.S. Department of Defense report noted,

"Any of the contrived situations described above are inherently, extremely risky in our democratic system in which security can be maintained, after the fact, with very great difficulty. If the decision should be made to set up a contrived situation it should be one in which participation by U.S. personnel is limited only to the most highly trusted covert personnel. This suggests the infeasibility of the use of military units for any aspect of the contrived situation."[13]

The U.S. Department of Defense report even suggested covertly paying a person in the Castro government to attack the United States:

"The only area remaining for consideration then would be to bribe one of Castro's subordinate commanders to initiate an attack on [the U.S. Navy base at] Guantanamo."[13]

Reaction
It has been reported that John F. Kennedy personally rejected the Northwoods proposal, but no official record of this exists. The proposal was sent for approval to the Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara, but was not implemented. President Kennedy removed General Lemnitzer as Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff shortly afterward, although he became Supreme Allied Commander of NATO in January 1963.

The continuing push against the Cuban government by internal elements of the U.S. military and intelligence community (the failed Bay of Pigs Invasion, the Cuban Project, etc.) prompted President John F. Kennedy to attempt to rein in burgeoning hardline anti-Communist sentiment that was intent on proactive, aggressive action against communist movements around the globe. After the Bay of Pigs, John F. Kennedy fired then CIA director Allen W. Dulles, Deputy Director Charles P. Cabell, as well as Deputy Director Richard Bissell, and turned his attention towards Vietnam.

Kennedy also took steps to bring discipline to the CIA's Cold War and paramilitary operations by drafting a National Security Action Memorandum (NSAM) which called for the shift of Cold War operations to the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the U.S. Department of Defense as well as a major change in the role of the CIA to exclusively deal in intelligence gathering.

Although it was never executed, it remains a fact that the Joint Chiefs of Staff were willing use the CIA to kill 10s, perhaps 100s, of innocent people, including American citizens, to start a war with Cuba over false pretenses. That should scare the hell out of everyone.

The reason that they were willing to consider such extreme actions is because they felt that such lying and killing may be necessary to win the Cold War. Similar actions were taken in Iran in 1953 with Operation Ajax and in Chile in 1973 when Pinochet set up a military dictatorship with help from the CIA. Let’s not forget what Henry Kissinger said about the second incident:


The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves"

JFK was a popular president; he was going to be re-elected in 1964. He was also planning on withdrawing from Vietnam; Robert McNamara and LBJ are both on record saying that. They were also both opposed to it, along with the Joint Chiefs. We all know about the Domino Theory and the fears about all of Asia eventually falling to Communism. If the issue of Communism was too important for Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves in 1973, then the issue of Communism was too important for the American voters to decide for themselves in 1964.

The Joint Chiefs and the CIA were perfectly willing to overthrow elected leaders and set up dictatorships in foreign countries to win the Cold War. The were even willing to draw up a plan to kill innocent Americans in false flag attacks in Miami or Washington, D.C. to start a war with Cuba, if they felt it necessary; it’s an admitted fact!

Killing one man in Dallas, even if he is the president, is less drastic than what we know the Joint Chiefs and the CIA did and were willing to do.

[ChumpDumper]

You guys are all over the map.

Do you have a JFK conspiracy org chart scrawled on your living room wall in crayon?

[BradLohaus]

You guys are all over the map.

Do you have a JFK conspiracy org chart scrawled on your living room wall in crayon?

I don't think I'm all over the map; the Joint Chiefs, through a very small faction of the CIA, hired a hitman to kill one man because they believed that it was in the national security interests of the USA. This was a less complicated operation than the other operations that the CIA carried out in multiple foreign countries during the Cold War. In fact, the Joint Chiefs in the early 60s were willing to consider killing far more than one American citizen, if necessary, to defeat the communist threat as they perceived it.

I would like to hear your take, and that of anyone else, on Operation Northwoods and the related plans of the Joint Chiefs and the CIA that I referenced in my previous post.

[Wild Cobra]

Operation Northwoods has to be mentioned in any discussion of the JFK assassination. There are a number of places to read it, including the National Archives, but here’s a link to site where you can view each of the 15 pages separately and clearly:

http://www.smeggys.co.uk/operation_northwoods.php

Wikipedia has a summary; here’s some of it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

Although it was never executed, it remains a fact that the Joint Chiefs of Staff were willing use the CIA to kill 10s, perhaps 100s, of innocent people, including American citizens, to start a war with Cuba over false pretenses. That should scare the hell out of everyone.

That is not my understanding of the operation. There were no casualties expected. Not what I heard in the past. Even the wiki entry seems revised.

Do you know, was there new evidence since 1997, or is someone mixing the documents op? I haven't gone over the supplied link yet, but I will when I have time.

My understanding is the operation was proposed by one general, and instantly dismissed by Kennedy when proposed, and that he was dealt with in some administrative manner too.

[Wild Cobra]

I would like to hear your take, and that of anyone else, on Operation Northwoods and the related plans of the Joint Chiefs and the CIA that I referenced in my previous post.

Purhaps an Operation Northwood, or better yet, Operation Mongoose thread would be good?

I have this take. It is the job of the president's top generals to bring him ideas. Even for contigencies that hopefully never need to be executed. However, when the plans are a direct thread to the citizens to be protected, they are flat out wrong.

P.S.

I supported directly the JCS for six years.

[Galileo]

[QUOTE=BradLohaus;2925196]

Although it was never executed, it remains a fact that the Joint Chiefs of Staff were willing use the CIA to kill 10s, perhaps 100s, of innocent people, including American citizens, to start a war with Cuba over false pretenses. That should scare the hell out of everyone.

[QUOTE]

Anyone worth his legal salt knows that it doesn't matter if a conspiracy is executed. The conspiracy itself is the crime.

[ChumpDumper]

I don't think I'm all over the map; the Joint Chiefs, through a very small faction of the CIA, hired a hitman to kill one man because they believed that it was in the national security interests of the USA. This was a less complicated operation than the other operations that the CIA carried out in multiple foreign countries during the Cold War. In fact, the Joint Chiefs in the early 60s were willing to consider killing far more than one American citizen, if necessary, to defeat the communist threat as they perceived it.

I would like to hear your take, and that of anyone else, on Operation Northwoods and the related plans of the Joint Chiefs and the CIA that I referenced in my previous post.Your take is that the JCS assassinated JFK so they could invade countries that they ended up not invading.

Is that it?

[Nbadan]

Your take is that the JCS assassinated JFK so they could invade countries that they ended up not invading.

Is that it?

Each of these theories has it's weaknesses for instance, the CIA, ....hmmmmmmmmmmmm.... so the agency that was too weak to execute a successful invasion of Cuba took down a sitting U.S. President and nobody who actually participated in the plot has ever talked, plus, the CIA is 'patriot city', they bleed Red, White and Blue and none have ever talked about how the plot to overthrow the country was planned and executed......hmmmmmmmmmmmm..........the Mafia, I mean, they hated Kennedy, especially Robert..........but how could the Mafia plan such a sophisticated operation, I mean, If we are too believe the conspiracy theorists then everything from the missing SS agent that was supposed to be riding with Kennedy on the back of the limo, to the shoddy prep done for his security, including the open windows, to the placement of the 'magic bullet' on Kennedy's bed as he was being wheeled in for an autopsy, the whipping down of the limo ruining forensic evidence, to evidence that the front wound in Kennedy's neck was really a trac done at Parkland to help Kennedy breath and the back wound that the 'magic bullet' caused actually did not penetrate kennedy's back....that Connelly was still holding onto his hat when he was supposedly shot in the arm by the magic bullet...that Kennedy appears to be holding onto his neck and likely already shot before he cleared the trees for a clear Oswald shot....that there could have been 4,5,6,6+ shots actually fired ...that Kennedy's body actually flew in the cockpit of Airforce 2 (LBJ's plane) and had already been autopsied, brain fragments removed and staples holding the head together...that all the Mafioso's and no fewer than 3 future sitting President had visited Dallas within days of Kennedy's visit, or, in the case of Ford and Bush41, were an active part of the conspiracy....



....could the Mafia pull all that plus more off? Could the CIA, weakened by agency deficits and rebuked by Kennedy after the Bay of Pigs incident have pulled this off? The Masons? The Secret Service? The anti-Castro crowd? Space Aliens?....


....this is where we have to not be so care free about generalizing.....Why does it have to be the CIA, why did it have to be the Mafia? Why did it have to be the JCS?...Why couldn't it have been just a few really rich guys with a lot of power and reach?

[BradLohaus]

Your take is that the JCS assassinated JFK so they could invade countries that they ended up not invading.

Is that it?

I was talking about Vietnam, not Cuba. I brought up Northwoods to point out some plans that the JCS and the CIA had for dealing with Cuba shortly before JFK was killed to show that they were certainly capable of killing the president over the possibility of a JFK led American withdrawal from Vietnam during his 2nd term if they felt that it was absolutely necessary, and if they were certain enough that he intended to do that.

Given what was said about the importance of stopping the spread of communism in Asia in the early 60s, and that JFK didn’t want to get into a war in Vietnam (unlike LBJ), then either the JCS/CIA carried out an Operation Northwoods type of attack on one person, or they just got really lucky that Oswald decided to kill the man who was going to stand in the way of their plans for the next 5 years.



My understanding is the operation was proposed by one general, and instantly dismissed by Kennedy when proposed, and that he was dealt with in some administrative manner too.

It was the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Lyman Lemnizter was the Chairman at the time, and JFK removed him from that position a few months later and he became the Supreme Allied Commander of NATO. And yes, the wiki page is much longer than the last time I saw it about a year ago.


There were no casualties expected. Not what I heard in the past.

Almost all of the plans involved no casualties. But not all of them:



Commence large scale United States military operations.
3. A "Remember the Maine" incident could be arranged in several forms:
a. We could blow up a US ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba.
b. We could blow up a drone (unmanned) vessel anywhere in the Cuban waters. We could arrange to cause such incident in the vicinity of Havana or Santiago as a spectacular result of Cuban attack from the air or sea, or both. The presence of Cuban planes or ships merely investigating the intent of the vessel could be fairly compelling evidence that the ship was taken under attack. The nearness to Havana or Santiago would add credibility especially to those people that might have heard the blast or have seen the fire. The US could follow up with an air/sea rescue operation covered by US fighters to "evacuate" remaining members of the non-existent crew. Casualty lists in US newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation.
4. We could develop a Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington.The terror campaign could be pointed at refugees seeking haven in the United States. We could sink a boatload of Cubans enroute to Florida (real or simulated). We could foster attempts on lives of Cuban refugees in the United States even to the extent of wounding in instances to be widely publicized. Exploding a few plastic bombs in carefully chosen spots, the arrest of Cuban agents and the release of prepared documents substantiating Cuban involvement, also would be helpful in projecting the idea of an irresponsible government.


8. It is possible to create an incident which will demonstrate convincingly that a Cuban aircraft has attacked and shot down a chartered civil airliner enroute from the United States to Jamaica, Guatemala, Panama or Venezuela. The destination would be chosen only to cause the flight plan route to cross Cuba. The passengers could be a group of college students off on a holiday or any grouping of persons with a common interest to support chartering a non-scheduled flight.

Nothing fake about that sentence, obviously, since it would be impossible to fake the deaths of a plane full of American college students. It wouldn't take the public long to ask why nobody can seem to find any of the dead students' families.

[Wild Cobra]

I was talking about Vietnam, not Cuba. I brought up Northwoods to point out some plans that the JCS and the CIA had for dealing with Cuba shortly before JFK was killed to show that they were certainly capable of killing the president over the possibility of a JFK led American withdrawal from Vietnam during his 2nd term if they felt that it was absolutely necessary, and if they were certain enough that he intended to do that.

Given what was said about the importance of stopping the spread of communism in Asia in the early 60s, and that JFK didn’t want to get into a war in Vietnam (unlike LBJ), then either the JCS/CIA carried out an Operation Northwoods type of attack on one person, or they just got really lucky that Oswald decided to kill the man who was going to stand in the way of their plans for the next 5 years.

I've heard this before, and I don't believe it happened that way. I do believe Oswald was the sole man involve.



It was the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Lyman Lemnizter was the Chairman at the time, and JFK removed him from that position a few months later and he became the Supreme Allied Commander of NATO. And yes, the wiki page is much longer than the last time I saw it about a year ago.

Fine, I did some research, but I didn't do a real complete job at the time. I don't even think I used Wiki the few years ago I researched it. The material I remember only named a general, who’s name I didn't remember either.

I know better than to use wiki as a sole source. Someone else made an accusation in essence that I trust wiki. That person is a fool. I respect you too much to say that to you, but I will if you wish to make that same accusation about me as well. Many pages have disclaimers of sorts, but can be wrong even without them. I’ve pointed that out in a thread here before along with pointing out something wrong on a wiki page too.

[Wild Cobra]

Almost all of the plans involved no casualties. But not all of them:


8. It is possible to create an incident which will demonstrate convincingly that a Cuban aircraft has attacked and shot down a chartered civil airliner enroute from the United States to Jamaica, Guatemala, Panama or Venezuela. The destination would be chosen only to cause the flight plan route to cross Cuba. The passengers could be a group of college students off on a holiday or any grouping of persons with a common interest to support chartering a non-scheduled flight.

Nothing fake about that sentence, obviously, since it would be impossible to fake the deaths of a plane full of American college students. It wouldn't take the public long to ask why nobody can seem to find any of the dead students' families.

Problem is, you didn't read it carefully. No deaths were planned. The civilians would be transferred to a duplicate, the original wired as a drone, and destroyed.

At the time, it would be easy to have fake passengers. The plane would sink without any easy means of recovery. Alias names.

Again, read the next part carefully:


a. An aircraft at Eglin AFB would be painted and numbered as an exact duplicate for a civil registered aircraft belonging to a CIA proprietary organization in the Miami area. At a designated time the duplicate would be substituted for the actual civil aircraft and would be loaded with the selected passengers, all boarded under carefully prepared aliases. The actual registered aircraft would be converted to a drone.

b. Take off times of the drone aircraft and the actual aircraft will be scheduled to allow a rendezvous south of Florida. From the rendezvous point the passenger-carrying aircraft will descend to minimum altitude and go directly into an auxiliary field at Eglin AFB where arrangements will have been made to evacuate the passengers and return the aircraft to its original status. The drone aircraft meanwhile will continue to fly the filed flight plan. When over Cuba the drone will being transmitting on the international distress frequency a "MAY DAY" message stating he is under attack by Cuban MIG aircraft. The transmission will be interrupted by destruction of the aircraft which will be triggered by radio signal. This will allow ICAO radio stations in the Western Hemisphere to tell the US what has happened to the aircraft instead of the US trying to "sell" the incident.

Please Brad, your better than most the others here. Don't buy into the hatred and propaganda.

[BradLohaus]

At the time, it would be easy to have fake passengers. The plane would sink without any easy means of recovery. Alias names.

I considered all of that, but I don't think that part of the plan applied to the college students. Again, there is zero chance of that working because fake college students don't have real families to be interviewed by the media. The lie would be quickly exposed. Well, I take that back. I guess you could enroll a bunch of young CIA agents in a school using fake names then have them all get on the plane, and then disappear for awhile. I'll grant you this, but damn, this people are shady.

But there's still the part of the plan that talks about terror attacks in Washington and Miami, and the part about sinking a boatload of Cubans ("real or simulated"). The JCS considered killing innocent people in a false flag terror attack shortly before JFK was killed; that can't be disputed, and that was really my entire point.


Don't buy into the hatred and propaganda.

I don't know what you mean. I'm particularly confused by the hatred part.

And I certainly don't just trust wiki; a page is only as good as its references. But when a page references the very document that the page is about, and you can just click on a link and read it, then I just read the document.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

JFK had an unprecedented change of heart towards the soviets and was more than willing to begin serious peace talks with nikita....i dont know or care about who the human being was that put the bullet into his head but its obvious fat cat businessmen of the M/I Complex had him killed.

[Wild Cobra]

The lie would be quickly exposed.
No it wouldn't. Not in 60's era media. Do you remember the 60's?

[DarrinS]

More forensic analysis points toward lone gunman from 6th floor of book depository.

Discovery Channel's "Inside the Target Car" (http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/jfk-inside-the-target-car-grassy-knoll-field-test.html)

The grassy knoll shot would not only have given JFK wounds that were different than those observed at autopsy, it would've killed the first lady.


Sorry tin-foil hat wearers.

:lmao

[DarrinS]

Modern forensic testing shows that there was only one shooter, just like the Warren Commission.


mODFnl8e83M

[Nbadan]

Modern forensic testing shows that there was only one shooter, just like the Warren Commission.


mODFnl8e83M

Two words - Clear Channel

[ChumpDumper]

What about Clear Channel?

[Nbadan]

than those observed at autopsy

...if the conspiracies are true, these guys just assassinated a Prez., but they can't fake an autopsy report? .....the Discovery Channel crap had so many holes but they tried to treat that shit as marginally scientific....read up a little....

[Nbadan]

These new clear-channel like "documentaries" from Discovery have buried virtually all the witnesses and now try to prove the faked evidence held by the government is valid. A doctor standing a couple of feet away from JFK's head says the back of JFK's head had a massive wound, that's good enough for me, but when you have sixteen hospital personnel saying the autopsy photos do not match the wounds they saw in Dallas, that is overwhelming.

Trying to recreate the splatter seen in the faked Zapruder film, trying to recreate wounds in the faked autopsy photos and X-rays....... Guys like Gary Mack will do anything to keep the public from figuring out what now is a pretty transparent lie....

Mack once wrote:

"As for Oswald knowing Ruby, there is NO credible evidence whatsoever they were acquainted."

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspir...966a462eacea353

Witnesses answer the question as to whether or not Jack Ruby and Lee Harvey Oswald knew each other:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcVM_UbBIyI

[Wild Cobra]

Two words - Clear Channel

LOL... When will you ever stop your uninformed punditry?

Clear channel is for profit. Not political bias. They have mostly conservative radio because that's the biggest demand.

They are the ones that own KPOJ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KPOJ), a liberal station that plays Air America (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_America_Radio) in my area. From wiki:


The station is noteworthy because it was the first Air America affiliate to be owned by Clear Channel Communications. Its schedule, which also features non-Air America syndicated host Ed Schultz, has served as a template for progressive talk stations nationwide. KPOJ was the first station to call its format "Progressive Talk", a tag that is often used.

If I'm reading that right, Clear Channel dubbed the turn "Progressive Talk!"

[DarrinS]

Trying to recreate the splatter seen in the faked Zapruder film

:lmao


Yeah, Abraham Zapruder did that video on his 1963 Macintosh. :lmao


You know why tin-foil hat wearers like Nbadan and Galileo believe in moonbat conspiracy theories?


They just can't fathom that a loser like Oswald could, by himself, take down the most powerful man in the free world. They can't fathom that 19 terrorists could board planes with box cutters and guide planes into 3 buildings. They probably don't believe that 10 armed "militants" just terrorized a city of more than 13 million people for 3 days.

[ChumpDumper]

What does Clear Channel have to do with the Discovery Channel again?

[Galileo]

There is an eyewitness who saw the shooters behind the picket fence. He is a deaf-mute man, and brother of a policeman, who got to the overpass 45 minutes before the shootings. Since he is deaf-mute, he is very observent, and not distracted by sounds.

This witness alone would acquit Oswald. People are convicted or acquitted all the time in court based on one good eyewitness.

[doobs]

There is an eyewitness who saw the shooters behind the picket fence. He is a deaf-mute man, and brother of a policeman, who got to the overpass 45 minutes before the shootings. Since he is deaf-mute, he is very observent, and not distracted by sounds.

This witness alone would acquit Oswald. People are convicted or acquitted all the time in court based on one good eyewitness.

For a moment I thought you were joking.

[Galileo]

For a moment I thought you were joking.

I'm not joking. You can look it up. Oliver Stone interviewed the man for the bonus features when the JFK DVD came out about 10 years ago (he is not in the movie, but he is documented in the new 2008 book 'JFK and the Unspeakable). I don't know if he is still alive today.

[DarrinS]

There is an eyewitness who saw the shooters behind the picket fence. He is a deaf-mute man, and brother of a policeman, who got to the overpass 45 minutes before the shootings. Since he is deaf-mute, he is very observent, and not distracted by sounds.

This witness alone would acquit Oswald. People are convicted or acquitted all the time in court based on one good eyewitness.


translation


blah blah blah, blah blah blah-blah-blah, blah blah-blah blah blah.

Blah blah blah-blah blah, blah blah blah, blah-blah blah-blah blah, blah.

[Yonivore]

I didn't hear anything in the video about the US House Select Committee on Assassinations; it does talk about Oswald being the lone gunman, that the mob had nothing to do with it, and the findings of the Warren Commission. In 2003 the chief council of the HSCA said, "Significantly, the Warren Commission's conclusion that the agencies of the government co-operated with it is, in retrospect, not the truth...We also now know that the Agency set up a process that could only have been designed to frustrate the ability of the committee in 1976-79 to obtain any information that might adversely affect the Agency."

Why did the CIA bring out of retirement George Joannides, the agent who had had contact with the same anti-Castro group as Oswald, and at the same time as Oswald, and put him in charge of "fascilitating" the research of the HSCA, and without telling anybody in the HSCA about Joannides's background? As Blakey said, Joannides should have been testifying, not working in the investigation. The HSCA's reserachers complained that Joannides was acting as a "filter", not a "fascilitator". What was he filtering? We'll never know, thanks to the CIA's obstructions. Did they go to all of this trouble just to make sure that nobody in the agency would look bad? Is it not natural to wonder just what the CIA was ultimately trying to hide?

Whatever the exact truth is, the CIA didn't look very interested in finding it. That agency has lied to the citizens of this country many times and it has engaged in terrible activities from the beginning. I don't know why anyone would trust anything that they are involved in, which very much includes these investigations into Oswald's activities before he assassinated JFK.
Is this the same CIA that couldn't keep rendition and secret prisons secret?

The same administration that can't keep NSA intelligence programs secret?

Yeah, I'm buying your theory.

[DarkReign]

Yeah, I'm buying your theory.

We're all very surprised, you regular skeptic, you.

"I like pancakes, but hate eggs.

Everyone who likes pancakes is my friend, whomever likes eggs is my enemy."

Yoni, in a nutshell.

[Yonivore]

We're all very surprised, you regular skeptic, you.

"I like pancakes, but hate eggs.

Everyone who likes pancakes is my friend, whomever likes eggs is my enemy."

Yoni, in a nutshell.

I use eggs in my pancakes. You?

[Nbadan]

What does Clear Channel have to do with the Discovery Channel again?

....most of their programme is fantasy land for one...

[Nbadan]

Is this the same CIA that couldn't keep rendition and secret prisons secret?

The same administration that can't keep NSA intelligence programs secret?

Yeah, I'm buying your theory.

On the other-hand we have been able to keep things like stealth technology and other things secret...

[Yonivore]

On the other-hand we have been able to keep things like stealth technology and other things secret...
Really? Never indefinitely.

[IceColdBrewski]

....most of their programme is fantasy land for one...


How bout the National Geographic channel then? They had a good special a couple of weeks ago where they used forensic science to show that each of the bullet wounds that JFK received were from a person shooting a rifle from the school book depository. They were able to reach the conclusion based on the direction of the entrance/exit wounds and blood splatters. If shots had come from the grassy knoll, JFK would have received different types of wounds, reacted differently to being shot, and would have actually had his head blown completely off.

[Nbadan]

How bout the National Geographic channel then? They had a good special a couple of weeks ago where they used forensic science to show that each of the bullet wounds that JFK received were from a person shooting a rifle from the school book depository. They were able to reach the conclusion based on the direction of the entrance/exit wounds and blood splatters. If shots had come from the grassy knoll, JFK would have received different types of wounds, reacted differently to being shot, and would have actually had his head blown completely off.

Did they interview the Doctors at Parkland hospital?


JhWJowvbtxs

[Galileo]

Is this the same CIA that couldn't keep rendition and secret prisons secret?

The same administration that can't keep NSA intelligence programs secret?

Yeah, I'm buying your theory.

The same group that kept the evil Manhattan Project secret.