Rebounding

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I know I am new to the board but just reading around a little bit I've seen some people scratch the surface but no full blown discussions about it, so I felt the need to start a forum because rebounding has obviously a major sub-plot to their season through 12 games. Here are some stats/analysis so we can fully understand the problem:

defensive rebounding: Though it doesn't seem like it, they are 4th in the league in defensive rebounding at 75.2% (as in they grab the defensive board 75.2% of the time after the opponent misses a shot). Granted they have not been a great defensive team 2nd chance points have not been a contributor to their bad defense, the other team is simply getting easier shots and thus missing less shots.

offensive rebounding: Here is the real rebounding problem, they are currently 30th (dead last) in the league at 20.8%, which has caused problems for them. Obviously, not being able to get consistent 2nd chance points every game puts a burden on their offense, but being horrible on the offensive boards severely compromises what's always been the league's best half break defense. They have never been a spectacular offensive rebounding team, but they've been good enough to keep the other team's guards honest and unable to sprint back up court, and so far this year that isn't the case. Call it dumb, but from what I've seen a team lacking in offensive boards causes their defense to suffer just as much as their offense. This is why the Suns have always been easy to run on, they annually rank bottom 5 in offensive rebounding. Here is my opinion as to what has been causing their offensive rebounding problem.

Obviously, missing your starting SG and PG shouldn't seem to affect rebounding, but look at some of the minute distribution so far this year:

Oberto: 19.4 MPG
Kurt Thomas: 14.5 MPG

So that's a combined 33.9 minutes per. Since those 2 are rarely on the court together, both of which are limited offensive players, Popovich needs one of them on the floor when Duncan is out for rebounding/defense, and Duncan plays 36.5 minutes per, I am going to assume that during those 11.5 minutes a game Duncan is out either Bonner/Tolliver is in so the floor with one of them to help the offense.

Basically, 26 out of 48 minutes a game they have an undersized lineup on the floor, which is limiting their offensive boards severely. Bonner and Tolliver are versatile offensive big men but not great rebounders.

(when figuring the minutes out I didn't factor in missed games)

So what does this mean? It means take it easy on the rebounding woes, I could be dead wrong about my hypothesis that Pop is needing to go to smaller shooter friendly lineups to make up for the lack of offense by sacrificing interior defense and rebounding, but I think until they're fully healthy and still have a problem on the offensive boards there really isn't a cause for concern.:bking

[wijayas]

I think SPurs Defense scheme is designed not to allow fastbreak opportunities. The moment the shot is up, most of the Spurs are already going back. So, offensive rebounding will suffer, by design.

It is the defensive rebounding that needs fixing, IMO.

[m33p0]

I think SPurs Defense scheme is designed not to allow fastbreak opportunities. The moment the shot is up, most of the Spurs are already going back. So, offensive rebounding will suffer, by design.

It is the defensive rebounding that needs fixing, IMO.
+1
offensive rebounding is not a problem. it's the consequence of the Spurs defensive scheme which Pop gladly sacrifices.

[MrChug]

I shudder to consider ANY negative statistical analysis during this period (being injured). If they are totals, you have to factor in the horrible performances and blowouts that it would be difficult for any team to avoid while top players are out.

I realize somebody pretty quick is going to post something stupid about "Manu and Tony were'nt our rebounders" :rolleyes. That's not how it works.

[ambchang]

I think Oberto has one of the worst rebounding / 40 min rates of anyone on the Spurs, regardless of position.

Having him on the floor helps with picks and interior passing, but his rebounding has been shockingly bad this year.

[rascal]

I think Oberto has one of the worst rebounding / 40 min rates of anyone on the Spurs, regardless of position.

Having him on the floor helps with picks and interior passing, but his rebounding has been shockingly bad this year.


Yeah, but he taps the ball out to other players the best.

[dbestpro]

A player that might be available in a trade and would give us the most bang for the buck towards rebounding is Jeff Foster. He plays as hard as Bowen and could guard the likes of a Stoudamire, Gasol or West. I think he would fit along Ducan well. He is in the last year of a 6 mil contract so a trade might be difficult.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I shudder to consider ANY negative statistical analysis during this period (being injured). If they are totals, you have to factor in the horrible performances and blowouts that it would be difficult for any team to avoid while top players are out.

I realize somebody pretty quick is going to post something stupid about "Manu and Tony were'nt our rebounders" :rolleyes. That's not how it works.

That's why I posted all of this, because I think people are viewing it as something that simple when it isn't at all. And for whoever said the offensive rebounding hasn't been a problem the defensive rebounding has, the stats don't lie. The Spurs are statistically a top 5 defensive rebounding team this year but the worst offensive rebounding team this year. I think their defense in general has been bad, their opponents are shooting 45% from the field, down right terrible compared to the Spurs we know.

I also know their defensive scheme is to get back on defense quickly, but the fact is offensive rebounds keep the other team honest, most NBA coaches are gonna know the Spurs are statistically the worst offensive rebounding team and tell their guards it's ok to cheat back up court once the shot goes up because they rarely have more than 1 offensive rebounding threat on the floor. It's easier to get back in time if the other team has to keep all their players there to get the board. But my big picture point is, Popovich has been forced to use smaller lineups, so the rebounding problem is in my opinion only temporary, and I think that this team can't be judged for ANY WEAKNESSES until it is healthy.

I am not saying it's a perfect team when healthy, I'm saying it's impossible to tell what weaknesses they'll have post all star break (when it really matters) based off of what weaknesses they have now. I can't believe I'm saying this to a bunch of Spurs fans but I figured you guys didn't panic so quickly but......HAVE FAITH!!!!

[MrChug]

A player that might be available in a trade and would give us the most bang for the buck towards rebounding is Jeff Foster. He plays as hard as Bowen and could guard the likes of a Stoudamire, Gasol or West. I think he would fit along Ducan well. He is in the last year of a 6 mil contract so a trade might be difficult.

I always actually thought the hard working trashcan type of underrated players would fit along well with Duncan. Mihm, Pryzbilla, Foster, David Lee, even the old "today's version" of Ben Wallace.

...wait, all except for Wallace they're white! WTF??

(countdown till Killbillpanocha calls me a racist :lol)

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Anderson Varejao is actually in the last year of his contract and didn't want to stay in Cleveland in the first place, once the "offer matched" trade restriction is off his contract the Spurs could go after him. Cleveland could be interested in Bonner/Tolliver since none of their bigs can shoot very well (except for big Z but he's a scrub), I have a strange hunch Pop is playing Bonner so much early on with the hopes of getting his trade value up.

[Dex]

I'm not sure when Pop became so enamored with the 'tap-out' concept, but I've noticed a tendency of all our bigmen, even those coming in, developing this habit. Tim and Thomas are about the only two who seem to go up for a rebound with two hands (Bonner when he's having a good night). I guess it does, in a sense, contribute to our smaller players being able to help rebound, but it seems like it's getting tipped out to opposing players just as often as our own, and has to be contributing to our offensive rebounding woes.

Get position. Box out. Grab the ball.

There is no tappy tap involved in those instructions.

[m33p0]

Anderson Varejao is actually in the last year of his contract and didn't want to stay in Cleveland in the first place, once the "offer matched" trade restriction is off his contract the Spurs could go after him. Cleveland could be interested in Bonner/Tolliver since none of their bigs can shoot very well (except for big Z but he's a scrub), I have a strange hunch Pop is playing Bonner so much early on with the hopes of getting his trade value up.
he'll be asking for way more than his worth.

[SenorSpur]

I think SPurs Defense scheme is designed not to allow fastbreak opportunities. The moment the shot is up, most of the Spurs are already going back. So, offensive rebounding will suffer, by design.

It is the defensive rebounding that needs fixing, IMO.

+2.

The Spurs have always been more concerned with transitional defense and limiting fastbareak opportunities than offensive rebounding. Which is partly how they've beaten the heck out of these gimmicky, break-neck offensive juggernaut teams like PHX, GS, over the years.

[exstatic]

I think SPurs Defense scheme is designed not to allow fastbreak opportunities. The moment the shot is up, most of the Spurs are already going back. So, offensive rebounding will suffer, by design.

It is the defensive rebounding that needs fixing, IMO.


+1
offensive rebounding is not a problem. it's the consequence of the Spurs defensive scheme which Pop gladly sacrifices.

+1 That's been the case for over a decade. It's part of their scheme. They work the offense to get the best shot possible (which they often do) but their first priority is to get back on D and stop easy buckets...make them face our half court D.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I'm not sure when Pop became so enamored with the 'tap-out' concept, but I've noticed a tendency of all our bigmen, even those coming in, developing this habit. Tim and Thomas are about the only two who seem to go up for a rebound with two hands (Bonner when he's having a good night). I guess it does, in a sense, contribute to our smaller players being able to help rebound, but it seems like it's getting tipped out to opposing players just as often as our own, and has to be contributing to our offensive rebounding woes.

Get position. Box out. Grab the ball.

There is no tappy tap involved in those instructions.

Pop likes players that tap out but can't fundamentally rebound? He should trade for Amare, all Amare ever does is tap out to the opposing player when there is nothing stopping him from just grabbing it with two hands. Gotta love the basketball IQ Amare has.... :bang

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

+2.

The Spurs have always been more concerned with transitional defense and limiting fastbareak opportunities than offensive rebounding. Which is partly how they've beaten the heck out of these gimmicky, break-neck offensive juggernaut teams like PHX, GS, over the years.

I know they have, but Duncan and Oberto/Muhammed being able to get offensive rebounds keeps the opposition honest if you get what I'm saying. Ginobili is a also a very underrated defender and is one of the best at getting in the passing lane when the other team is on a fast break. Oberto is a mediocre defensive rebounder but a great offensive rebounder. The last two championship seasons the Spurs were middle of the pack in offensive rebounding but were able to step it up against teams like Phoenix that could lose games because of the other team's 2nd chance points, this year they are dead last in that department, the team dead last in offensive rebounds is never going to win a championship.

Duncan's defensive rebounding has slipped this year but that's due to the fact he's had such a burden offensively and on the interior defense that he hasn't had the ability or energy to be able to focus on positioning for the rebound, another thing that I think will get better once Manu and Tony come back. As good as Duncan is he can only do so many things at once, when he's guarding the other team's best low post offensive player his rebounds are going to slip a little. With that said he's still been a GREAT defensive rebounder so I really don't see a problem with him.

[m33p0]

still, it would be nice to have a bigman ball hound like Foster or Andy.

[tlongII]

The Spurs struggle to rebound because they lack size. It's pretty simple really.

[m33p0]

The Spurs struggle to rebound because they lack size. It's pretty simple really.
i present to you Thomas, Bonner, Tolliver, Oberto. all 6'10" and above. it's about desire not size.

[ploto]

Yeah, but he taps the ball out to other players the best.

If it is a controlled tap, score keepers count that as an offensive rebound for Oberto.

[boutons_]

Jason Kidd is only 6'3" and is superb rebounder for a PG.

As far as Pop's tactics allow, the entire team needs to help out with RB.

In baseball, it's "hit 'em where they ain't".

In basketball RB, it's "go get 'em where they are". Go to the RB, don't wait for it to fall in your hands.

[MrChug]

i present to you Thomas, Bonner, Tolliver, Oberto. all 6'10" and above. it's about desire not size.

To further your point I present Barkley, Boozer, Brand, Chuck Hayes (if he can stay out of foul trouble), Wes Unseld, Dennis Rodman, even Jason Kidd.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

tlong, here's what Shaq said to Oden after Saturday's game:


Hey Greg, TELL ME HOW MY ASS TASTES!!!!

[ploto]

offensive rebounding is not a problem. it's the consequence of the Spurs defensive scheme which Pop gladly sacrifices.

It has never been this bad--


they are currently 30th (dead last) in the league at 20.8%, which has caused problems for them.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

It's about boxing out fundamentals, natural rebounding instincts and focus. Rodman was only 6'7" and had a relatively thin frame, but his BBall IQ was off the charts (regular IQ not so much) and he could see a shot go off and know where he needed to be for the rebound.

[rascal]

The Spurs struggle to rebound because they lack size. It's pretty simple really.


Not only that but their big men outside of Duncan are not mobile or quick to get rebounds.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Not only that but their big men outside of Duncan are not mobile or quick to get rebounds.

Not really, their best rebounder other than Timmy (Kurt Thomas) isn't playing as much because Pop is forced to spread the floor more w/ Bonner and Tolliver since Mason, Hill, and Finley need more spacing than Parker or Manu to make plays.

[I Love Me Some Me]

It's not about getting more offensive rebounds, it's about giving up fewer offensive rebounds.

[rascal]

It's about boxing out fundamentals, natural rebounding instincts and focus. Rodman was only 6'7" and had a relatively thin frame, but his BBall IQ was off the charts (regular IQ not so much) and he could see a shot go off and know where he needed to be for the rebound.

Rodman didn't care about much else other then getting rebounds so all his focus was getting rebounds.

He would position himself when the shot went off with the highest probability to get a rebound.

He perfected the tap to himself which makes you play bigger because a one handed tap is easier to get higher on than a two handed rebound so he was able to out rebound taller players with the one handed tap to himself.

He would even fight his own teammates for a rebound to pad his rebound stats.

[mountainballer]

Spurs usually did have a small advantage in the rebounding rate.
usually something like +1-2 rebounds for more than a decade.
now they are down -3.5 rebounds. that's a scary number.
of course this causes a big part of our problems. and neither Tony nor Manu will cure this. KT and Fab are meanwhile to weak on the boards and even Tim doesn't rebound as dominant as he used to. even a pure rebounder like Reggie Evans would help us right now. (yes, I do know about all of what he can't do.)

[xellos88330]

Spurs bigs just cant jump high enough. They can establish decent position, but are always out jumped. I think Ian can stop at least that much.

[rascal]

the rebound weakness will kill the Spurs against the better teams in the league.

They are giving up way too many possessions and the better teams will take advantage of that.

The spurs better address this by trading for a good rebounder or this will kill the spurs in the playoffs.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

It's not about getting more offensive rebounds, it's about giving up fewer offensive rebounds.

Statistically they're a top 5 defensive rebounding team. When they are giving up 45% shooting their D is going to look bad regardless, Bowen is getting 22 minutes per compared to Finley getting 29 minutes per. Last year Bowen got 30 and Finley got 26 minutes per. We know why Finley has had to play more than Bowen, so we should understand why their defense is very un-Spurlike so far.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Spurs usually did have a small advantage in the rebounding rate.
usually something like +1-2 rebounds for more than a decade.
now they are down -3.5 rebounds. that's a scary number.
of course this causes a big part of our problems. and neither Tony nor Manu will cure this. KT and Fab are meanwhile to weak on the boards and even Tim doesn't rebound as dominant as he used to. even a pure rebounder like Reggie Evans would help us right now. (yes, I do know about all of what he can't do.)

C'mon dude, you seem like someone who's watched the Spurs enough to know it's not that simple. Manu and Parker might not directly make them a better rebounding team, but Popovich being able to use the offensively limited centers who focus all their energy on defense and rebounds because Parker and Manu don't need as much spacing to create sure does impact rebounding.

Even if you think that paragraph makes no sense, just wait it out, you know Pop is never gonna make a big change based off of how they look when 2 outa the big 3 are injured, might as well see what they look like once Parker and Manu come back.

[zepn]

Other teams have figured out they can make the Spurs pay for their emphasis on transition D by crashing hard on the boards.

[Tully365]

The injuries to Manu and Tony have grabbed the headlines, but the fact that Thomas and Oberto seem less than 100% healthy is just another reason why I feel pretty optimistic about this team's chances. With the two all stars returning to help raise the FG% of the offense (thus limiting the opponent's defensive rebounding opportunities), Mahinmi finally suiting up, and Thomas & Oberto getting healthy, I think the Spurs will greatly improve their rebounding situation. That said, I still wouldn't mind a mid-season trade or pick up-- preferably for someone over 6'9" with a little bit of muscle. But I do think that Pop is waiting to see what Mahinmi can do-- this will be key. If he can be a steady, reliable rotation big, capable of solid defense and 6 rebounds per 25 minutes or so, the Spurs will be in pretty good shape.

[SenorSpur]

The injuries to Manu and Tony have grabbed the headlines, but the fact that Thomas and Oberto seem less than 100% healthy is just another reason why I feel pretty optimistic about this team's chances. With the two all stars returning to help raise the FG% of the offense (thus limiting the opponent's defensive rebounding opportunities), Mahinmi finally suiting up, and Thomas & Oberto getting healthy, I think the Spurs will greatly improve their rebounding situation..
If the Spurs are to improve upon their paltry reboudning efficiency, Duncan MUST get a double-digits every night and Ian must fill in the void left by the under-achieving effort from KT and Oberto.


That said, I still wouldn't mind a mid-season trade or pick up-- preferably for someone over 6'9" with a little bit of muscle. But I do think that Pop is waiting to see what Mahinmi can do-- this will be key. If he can be a steady, reliable rotation big, capable of solid defense and 6 rebounds per 25 minutes or so, the Spurs will be in pretty good shape.
Me too.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Other teams have figured out they can make the Spurs pay for their emphasis on transition D by crashing hard on the boards.

Explain please I'm not following what you're saying.

[SenorSpur]

It's about boxing out fundamentals, natural rebounding instincts and focus. Rodman was only 6'7" and had a relatively thin frame, but his BBall IQ was off the charts (regular IQ not so much) and he could see a shot go off and know where he needed to be for the rebound.

You have hit on a point that I've harped on for weeks regarding this rebounding situation. It definitely IS about positioning, effort and desire - morseo than fabulous athleticism.

NBA history is filled with the names of many current and former players who, despite size and frame, worked to become fabulous rebounders because of those intangibles mentioned earlier. Among them:

Jason Kidd - 6'4"
Fat Lever - 6' 3"
Truck Robinson - 6'6"
Buck Williams - 6'7"
Charles Barkley - 6'4"
Michael Cage - 6'7"
Wes Unseld - 6'7"
Alvin Robertson - 6'4"
Oscar Robertson - 6'5"
Charles Oakley - 6"7"

That said, KT nd Oberto have no excuse for their poor rebounding efforts, other than perhaps, they're skills and reactions are in decline. If that's the case, I can accept that and Pop needs to look for other options If not, they must step and help Duncan negate the many 2nd chance opportunities that the Spurs are giving up to the opposition.

[jlpittsley]

As a team, the Spurs have poor lateral speed and they take a lot of long shots. Bowen is still not at full speed, Thomas really looks slow, Mason, Ime, Finely and even Hill are not very fast side to side. Our guards do not have quick feet. Rebounds that do not go to the calculated areas are often missed by backcourt of the Spurs.

If anything is near Duncan, he gets it. I find this to be his must understated talent. But, if he's not there then we have trouble.

Overall, I think it's a combination of Pop wanting them to get back to prevent the fast break, the high percentage of 3-pointers, and slow feet.

[zepn]

Explain please I'm not following what you're saying.

Other teams know the Spurs will only make half-assed attempts at rebounds because Pop will chew them out if they don't get back on transition D. So they instead concentrate on rebounds (which the Spurs are not working hard at) instead of fast-breaks (which the Spurs are working very hard at stopping).

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

last year, per 36 minutes Oberto averaged 9.4 boards, Thomas averaged 9.5 boards, and Timmy averaged 12 boards.

This year, per 36 minutes, Oberto is averaging 6.1 boards, Thomas is averaging 8.8 boards, and Timmy is averaging 9.9 boards.

So I guess I could be wrong about Oberto, Duncan is averaging 2 less boards a game because of the added burden on him in other areas if the game, once the other stars come back he can focus on getting boards like he normally does. Thomas is averaging 0.7 boards a game less, but I've followed him since he was traded to the Suns, and he always starts the season slow, it takes 20 or so games before he gets in basketball shape and gets his legs back.

So maybe Oberto has lost something with age or maybe he's still injured, but Horry was an underrated loss as far as rebounding goes, and his body falling apart last season was a contributor to why they fell short. A guy who could get on the offensive glass like him while being able to space the floor on offense is hard for any team to replace. Those 2-3 put back dunks a game he was known for got the other teams attention.

PS- Manu is a great rebounder as far as guards go, so don't ignore him.

[mathbzh]

You have hit on a point that I've harped on for weeks regarding this rebounding situation. It definitely IS about positioning, effort and desire - morseo than fabulous athleticism.


This is why I am afraid Ian will not be the answer.
He can probably help us catching an offensive rebound here an there thanks to his athleticism. But I don't think his positioning will be good enough to help us securing our defensive rebounds.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Other teams know the Spurs will only make half-assed attempts at rebounds because Pop will chew them out if they don't get back on transition D. So they instead concentrate on rebounds (which the Spurs are not working hard at) instead of fast-breaks (which the Spurs are working very hard at).

Which is the objective, isn't it? Isn't getting teams to throw away the easy fast break points and focus on defensive rebounding the whole point of Pop's defensive system?


What I'm saying is the lack of offensive rebounding from the Spurs other than Duncan means the other team's guards can worry less about defensive rebounding and can cheat back up court and get more easy points.


They've never been a team known for offensive boards, but they've been good enough at offensive rebounding to punish teams like the Suns and now the Knicks who were told by D'antoni to sprint back up court and leave rebounding responsibility to guys like Marion who weren't as efficient in the playoffs.

[zepn]

Which is the objective, isn't it? Isn't getting teams to throw away the easy fast break points and focus on defensive rebounding the whole point of Pop's defensive system?


What I'm saying is the lack of offensive rebounding from the Spurs other than Duncan means the other team's guards can worry less about defensive rebounding and can cheat back up court and get more easy points.


They've never been a team known for offensive boards, but they've been good enough at offensive rebounding to punish teams like the Suns and now the Knicks who were told by D'antoni to sprint back up court and leave rebounding responsibility to guys like Marion who weren't as efficient in the playoffs.

It's a trade-off. What you gain on one you lose on the other. The worst thing opposing teams could do is give up easy rebounds in an attempt to go against one of the Spurs strengths.

By contrast the Spurs should (and do, to an extent) concentrate more on rebounds against teams with weak fast-break capabilities.

[Tully365]

PS- Manu is a great rebounder as far as guards go, so don't ignore him.

It's very possible that Hill will also be a very good rebounder, especially when paired with Parker-- this will allow him to him to crash the boards much more, not being the point guard responsible for staying back & preventing fast break opportunities. As a 2 guard in college, Hill averaged 6.8 rpg in his final season.

[The Truth #6]

There's hope for the young guys, as in we don't know if they're good rebounders or not. After several years in the league I don't recall many players all of a sudden becoming much better rebounders.

So, who I think needs to step it up is Kurt Thomas. Oberto or Bonner have never been great rebounders, and Bonner is actually doing at least average, which is probably one of the big reasons he's been getting more playing time. Kurt has always been a good rebounder so for him to fall off like this is disappointing. He might already be in early retirement mode with that new contract. It's hard to say.

[m33p0]

What I'm saying is the lack of offensive rebounding from the Spurs other than Duncan means the other team's guards can worry less about defensive rebounding and can cheat back up court and get more easy points.

the Spurs in recent years has been able to negate that through effective offensive execution leading to less rebounds to contest on the offensive end. it is when they don't execute and just start jacking up shots or when the shots don't fall when this glaring weakness on the offensive glass rears its ugly head.

defense and offensive execution... these has been the staple of the Spurs' championships.

[Spur-Addict]

It's about boxing out fundamentals, natural rebounding instincts and focus. Rodman was only 6'7" and had a relatively thin frame, but his BBall IQ was off the charts (regular IQ not so much) and he could see a shot go off and know where he needed to be for the rebound.

Athleticism has some say in this as well. Physical dexterity is an issue on the frontline, that has to change a bit.

[timvp]

Quality thread. Nice work, DUNCANownsKOBE.

First of all, I never spend a second caring about the offensive rebounding numbers for the Spurs. Part of Pop's defensive philosophy is to be the best transition defensive team in basketball. That means sacrificing offensive rebounds. I've actually seen Pop get mad at players for grabbing an offensive rebound and scoring. If you aren't in the immediate basket area when a shot goes up, you're supposed to get back on defense. That's just part of Spurs Basketball.

Plus, once Ginobili and Parker get back, the offensive rebounds will come. Right now, Duncan is playing further away from the basket than usual because he has to be an offensive threat at all times. Once Ginobili and Parker return, Duncan can go back to keeping one eye on the offensive rebound. And once he's in there scrapping, it'll be easier for the other bigs to fight with him down low.

The defensive rebounding numbers on a whole don't look too bad, especially if you look at the defensive rebounding percentage. But it's been a noticeable drop off from last season since the Spurs last year were far and away the best defensive rebounding team in the league. And it wasn't even close. An average NBA team would have extremely happy to be rebounding like the Spurs are right now but I don't blame Spurs fans for worrying about the defensive boards after last season when the Spurs almost never lost a game due to rebounding.

And I have to disagree with the notion that having Bonner on the court hurts rebounding. Bonner is actually a pretty good rebounder, especially when it comes to offensive rebounding. IIRC, he led the Spurs in offensive rebounds per minute in his first year with the Spurs and is posting good numbers in that category this year as well. He's not a great defensive rebounder historically but he's done a good job as of late. This season, the Spurs are better rebounding wise when Bonner is on the court compared to when he's off the court.

Overall, yes rebounding is a bit of a concern but I expect it to get better. Duncan will rebound better once he doesn't have as much of a scoring burden and Oberto can't help but to rebound better. Thomas will likely also get better rebounding wise as the season goes along and hopefully Bonner can continue rebounding like he has over the last five games. And while Manu isn't a great rebounder, he's very good at pulling down contested defensive rebounds.

In another month or two, we should have a good idea if rebounding is a problem. I don't expect it to be but if it is, trading for a rebounder or replacing Ahearn with a rebounder could become a necessity.

[tp2021]

In another month or two, we should have a good idea if rebounding is a problem. I don't expect it to be but if it is, trading for a rebounder or replacing Ahearn with a rebounder could become a necessity.Having a fluid 15th spot is a good thing.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Ya TIMVP I agree with basically everything you said, I did look at the numbers and Bonner is a better rebounder than I thought. And Yes I guess compared to other Spurs teams their defensive rebounding has gotten worse, I didn't think from that perspective, remember every time the Suns grab a defensive rebound it's a case of "even a blind squirrel can find an acorn".


Just so you know the overall point of the thread was to show the over simplifiers how even though they're both guards Manu and Parker being out affects rebounding in a lot of indirect ways, and that as someone who's followed KT for years I know how painful it is to watch him in November and early December, he obviously doesn't have a great off season program where he stays in shape which is something I don't think Pop cared to change since KT knows his body better than anyone else at his age.

[silk]

I also think it's a great thread and I really appreciate your posts DuncanownsKobe

I mean, this is what i like about spurstalk, we get to see point of view from other teams fans ( LA, Pistons, even some mavs one...) and from all the posters, with Timvp, their takes are often the most interesting ones, reversely, the takes from some spurs fans ( i won't give names..) are not that insightful ( I include myself in the pack ^^ )

This is also why some forums with only blind fans of their own teams are so boring ( i think of some suns "cultist" forums..)

I'm from France, 5 or 6 years ago, i got struck by the play of TD, then the more I dig, the more I follow the spurs, the more they seem "special" for me, from the role players, the way the front office often do his job, and even the forums/fans... I mean i'm kind of an objective and neutral fan ( if such a monster exist ), I don't like the spurs because they are in my town, or for other reasons, but only for the beauty of the way they approach and play the game and when i'll see mediocrity on this team, i will quit it with no remorse to find back "it" again, maybe in a totally different thing ( before it was french soccer national team, with zidane and deschamps... which had that "specialness")

That's quite a long, boring, and narcissist disgression, sorry for it and for my english

[BlackBellamy]

I also think it's a great thread and I really appreciate your posts DuncanownsKobe

I mean, this is what i like about spurstalk, we get to see point of view from other teams fans ( LA, Pistons, even some mavs one...) and from all the posters, with Timvp, their takes are often the most interesting ones, reversely, the takes from some spurs fans ( i won't give names..) are not that insightful ( I include myself in the pack ^^ )

This is also why some forums with only blind fans of their own teams are so boring ( i think of some suns "cultist" forums..)

I'm from France, 5 or 6 years ago, i got struck by the play of TD, then the more I dig, the more I follow the spurs, the more they seem "special" for me, from the role players, the way the front office often do his job, and even the forums/fans... I mean i'm kind of an objective and neutral fan ( if such a monster exist ), I don't like the spurs because they are in my town, or for other reasons, but only for the beauty of the way they approach and play the game and when i'll see mediocrity on this team, i will quit it with no remorse to find back "it" again, maybe in a totally different thing ( before it was french soccer national team, with zidane and deschamps... which had that "specialness")

That's quite a long, boring, and narcissist disgression, sorry for it and for my english


Sorry for your english? Good god man, have you read through the majority of posts on this site? Compared to a good 90 percent of folks on this board (American born most likely) your english is impeccable.

[silk]

Thanks bellamy, I tend to be somewhat of a perfectionnist with language, I think a spurs philosophical view would be a good contibution ( one time, i will make a french book about it, there could be an unexpected success, you got warned here the first lol )

I really liked the anecdotes about Duncan psychology piece study published, or ginobili readin' an history book on his way to Denver..Pop and the geopolitics, (malik rose and stoician sport philosophy) spurs and cultur is also one of the spurs facette

Too bad it's not even the second or the third more popular one on the forum ( that would be the trade x, and the tony vs manu debates, the first one being game thoughts )

[Manufan909]

Thanks bellamy, I tend to be somewhat of a perfectionnist with language, I think a spurs philosophical view would be a good contibution ( one time, i will make a french book about it, there could be an unexpected success, you got warned here the first lol )

I really liked the anecdotes about Duncan psychology piece study published, or ginobili readin' an history book on his way to Denver..Pop and the geopolitics, spurs and cultur is also one of the spurs facette

Too bad it's not even the second or the third more popular one on the forum ( that would be the trade x, and the tony vs manu debates, the first one being game thoughts )

Your english>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ducks' and sequ's english together

[silk]

Your english>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ducks' and sequ's english together


Even if it is not that great (or difficult) of an achievement, it's still a pleasure to be somewhat recognized in some ways

[Manufan909]

True. And ducks represents a negative there, so it is somewhat of a gimme.:lmao

[duncan228]

...I really liked the anecdotes about Duncan psychology piece study published...

Are you talking about the piece Duncan wrote on himself, "The Psychoanalysis of Tim Duncan", or the chapter in the psychology book he co-authored?

[silk]

Are you talking about the piece Duncan wrote on himself, "The Psychoanalysis of Tim Duncan", or the chapter in the psychology book he co-authored?

The chapter in the psychology book that i would love to read...but not so easy to put an hand on it in france, US psychology is , alas, not very appreciated here

The psychoanalysis on Tim duncan if you had a link to some extract, i would be grateful

[duncan228]

The chapter in the psychology book that i would love to read...but not so easy to put an hand on it in france, US psychology is , alas, not very appreciated here

It's pretty cool that you know about it, I don't run into many people that do. You can find it online, like Amazon. It's pricey, but you can usually find a used copy cheaper.


The psychoanalysis on Tim duncan if you had a link to some extract, i would be grateful

A ST link to Duncan's Psychoanalysis:

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2764263&postcount=17

[raspsa]

Getting high leapers won't improve rebounding necessarily.. was it Bill Russell who said that 90% of rebounds are below the rim? Positioning, quickness, teamwork and desire are the keys and any deficiencies in this area are sure to be correected by Pop in the coming weeks and months. Still, I'm looking forward to Ian's contributions.

[silk]

It's pretty cool that you know about it, I don't run into many people that do. You can find it online, like Amazon. It's pricey, but you can usually find a used copy cheaper.



A ST link to Duncan's Psychoanalysis:

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2764263&postcount=17


Thanks I collect as many informations as possible on some spurs players, especially Duncan, the best part of his game, for me, the one that struck me the most, is the attention he give to each of his moves, or lay-ups, as if each one have to be perfect ( meanwhile, the great krishnamurti once said attention was the path to genius), from this we can deduce how his famous quote " striving for perfection" is not just a good word, but how he really apply it

I try to do the same in my work, but i'm more manu-like on this aspect lol

[mathbzh]

Getting high leapers won't improve rebounding necessarily.. was it Bill Russell who said that 90% of rebounds are below the rim?

He said that during the 2007 PO


Rebounding: It’s Not All About Height

By averaging 25 points and 14 rebounds against the Warriors thus far, Carlos Boozer, who is 6-9, has been receiving a lot of national attention for his play, particularly for doing what he’s done as a perceived “undersized” frontcourt player. In my opinion, though, once you get past 6-9, it doesn’t make any difference what size you are, you can play with anybody. Like I was telling some people last week, when I was in college, with a running jump I could touch the top of the backboard because I was one of the world’s best high jumpers. But most rebounds are taken below the height of the rim. So if I jump up and touch the top of the backboard, there are no rebounds up there. In fact, when I was at my best, if I had to outjump somebody to get a rebound, that was the last line of defense. In other words, I was under duress. I hoped to never let it get to that where I had to outjump a guy. Rebounding is positioning and timing. That is why Bill Laimbeer and Paul Silas were both quite good at rebounding even though neither one could jump very high.

[ceperez]

Anderson Varejao is actually in the last year of his contract and didn't want to stay in Cleveland in the first place, once the "offer matched" trade restriction is off his contract the Spurs could go after him. Cleveland could be interested in Bonner/Tolliver since none of their bigs can shoot very well (except for big Z but he's a scrub), I have a strange hunch Pop is playing Bonner so much early on with the hopes of getting his trade value up.

Same here. Let's hope a Bonner plus Vaughn trade can lead to a decent big man.

[mrspurs]

Yeah, but he taps the ball out to other players the best.

Thats how they play in the WNBA.

[mrspurs]

Same here. Let's hope a Bonner plus Vaughn trade can lead to a decent big man.

Thats are only hope if we plan on making a serious run at another championship. I dont think Ian is the man, but he's the only one on the roster who can make that difference. Then again he does us no good in austin. After Timmy there is noone thats gonna be able to play with Shaq and Amare. Bynum and Gasol. Yao and Scolla. Tyson and West. Greg and Aldrige. Okur and Boozer. Heck even Nene and Martin. (and thats just the west) Those teams also have pretty dang good 1s 2s and 3s. Bonner and Jacque would be a nice trade for someone whos got alot of bigs. Like the blazers. If Greg could play without getting hurt we might be able to trade for Channing. We could even send them Fab or Kurt as a thank you for helping us out.

[m33p0]

Same here. Let's hope a Bonner plus Vaughn trade can lead to a decent big man.
hmm... i don't know.... Pop has always been cautious about bringing in a new guy in the middle of the season especially if it involves trading away someone who is familiar with the system. it has to be more than just a decent big, as in quality-role-player big.

for those who will use kurt thomas, elson never really grasped the Spurs system.

[mrspurs]

A player that might be available in a trade and would give us the most bang for the buck towards rebounding is Jeff Foster. He plays as hard as Bowen and could guard the likes of a Stoudamire, Gasol or West. I think he would fit along Ducan well. He is in the last year of a 6 mil contract so a trade might be difficult.

Even Foster is an upgrade over Fab and Kurt. Then again it doesnt take much.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

hmm... i don't know.... Pop has always been cautious about bringing in a new guy in the middle of the season especially if it involves trading away someone who is familiar with the system. it has to be more than just a decent big, as in quality-role-player big.

for those who will use kurt thomas, elson never really grasped the Spurs system.

What about Nazr Mouhammed for Malik Rose? Rose was having a bad year but he knew their system just as good as the next guy. Mouhammed was a BEAST for them in 2005 but they sure coulda used Rose again Dirk in 2006. My point is the if Pop thinks they need to add a big since LA has 3 serviceable bigs, he'll do it. I still think KT has plenty left in the tank.

[Man In Black]

The only stat Pop really cares about is... Opp FG % Allowed.
Do a study on that one, that would be of more interest to me :)