Abortions For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

[IcemanCometh]

Pro-choice progressives need to reframe the debate on abortion. The question of when life begins has become so murky that it works more for our foes than for us, and arguments about reproductive rights only convince those of us who already believe abortion must be legal.
Most Americans are uncomfortable with abortion, and as long as we permit the debate to stay on vague moralistic or constitutional grounds, we lose.

The weakness in the anti-choice position comes down to one question - who goes to jail? That's what we need to exploit.


Most Americans are uncomfortable with abortion, but they are even more uncomfortable with the idea of sending their wives, sisters, daughters, and doctors to prison or to Death Row.

And the anti-choice forces know this.

From Meet the Press, Oct. 17, with senatorial candidate Jim DeMint:

MR. RUSSERT: I accept that, and respect your views, but if you have a law which says all abortions should be banned, period, who should be prosecuted if they perform an abortion, the woman, the doctor, who?
REP. DeMINT: I think the lawmakers at the state level...
MR. RUSSERT: You want to be a lawmaker.
REP. DeMINT: I do want to be. But we need to...
MR. RUSSERT: You want to be a United States senator. What is your view?
REP. DeMINT: My view is we should protect all human life and that our laws should be set up to protect that life.
MR. RUSSERT: But who would be prosecuted?
REP. DeMINT: We'll just have to decide that. I mean...
MR. RUSSERT: What is your view?
REP. DeMINT: You know, I can't come up with all the laws as we're sitting right here, but the question is are we going to protect human life with our laws?

DeMint can't answer the question because he knows that as soon as he stops blabbering about a 'culture of life' and starts talking about putting women in prison, he loses the vote of every moderate out there.

This is a fatal weakness we can use against the Republican Party on this issue. But we need to be aggressive about challenging Republicans to define how abortion will be prosecuted and punished. Put them on the spot, and do not let them weasel out with nothingburger platitudes about 'life.'

And when they fail to define a position, we need to define one for them.

Here's one - if abortion is murder, then both the woman and doctor must be prosecuted. In our legal system, when two people commit murder, there's no precedent for prosecuting one but not the other. Further, if abortion is murder it can only be premeditated murder - it can't be negligent homicide, or in the heat of passion, or in self-defense. There are no mitigating factors. And in most states, premeditated murder is a capital crime making the woman and the doctor eligible for the death penalty.

We need to pin the anti-choice Republicans on their on rhetoric here - if abortion is murder, then you can't endorse lesser penalties or say one of the parties shouldn't be prosecuted. Murder is murder. Period.

Force the GOP and anti-choice forces to fight on this turf, and their support melts right away

Whats a gagortion? (http://dailykos.com/story/2004/11/8/141946/553)

[JoeChalupa]

Didn't the Supreme Court just refuse to look at Roe vs Wade?

I believe life begins at conception.

[Spurminator]

Good points.

[sbsquared]

From what I understand about the Pro-life movement they would like Roe v Wade to be overturned. That wouldn't outlaw abortion, it would just make it a state's issue, not a Federal one. So each state could enact its own laws and if they make abortion illegal, people could just travel to a state where it was legal.

I know pro-choice people will argue that it makes it harder for poor women because they don't have the funds to travel to another state - but I say - I believe every woman has a choice - the choice whether or not to have sex without contraceptives. If you choose to have sex without contraceptives, then you must live with the consequences of your choice!!!

[JoeChalupa]

It is also up to the man to cover his meat when he's in heat!
If he ain't' gonna wrap it, go home and whack it!
When in doubt, cover your spout!

[desflood]

"If you choose to have sex without contraceptives, then you must live with the consequences of your choice!" My God, I've been saying that for years, and all those idiots just laughed at me...

[MannyIsGod]

That used to be my line of thinking. But not so much anymore. I can't just call a zygote or even a small fetus a human being capable of life on it's own.

[Samurai Jane]

That used to be my line of thinking. But not so much anymore. I can't just call a zygote or even a small fetus a human being capable of life on it's own.

What are your criteria for determining what is a human being?

[travis2]

What are your criteria for determining what is a human being?

You beat me to it, Jenn...:)

Where's the magic line in the sand? What's that point where you can say "yesterday it was only a zygote, but today he/she is a human being"?

[MannyIsGod]

I would say that when it is able to survive on it's own without direct biological help from the mother. In otherwords, if it was born today, would it survive?

Can it survive outside of the mothers body?

It's not a dark line, it's a big gray area. But it's all I got at the moment.

[Spurminator]

Once the child is outside of the mother's body, there are other options for its survival. It can be adopted, for instance, by anyone willing to raise it.

Once we are able to easily and reliably remove an embryo/fetus from the mother's womb and somehow nurse it to full growth, then I think there will be precedent for banning abortions. Right now, however, you've got a perpetual battle between the mother's rights and the fetus' rights... and arguing which one's rights to prioritize is never clear cut.

[IcemanCometh]

I am pro-forced pregnancies.

[Clandestino]

i think a person should always have a right to their own body...

[JoeChalupa]

That used to be my line of thinking. But not so much anymore. I can't just call a zygote or even a small fetus a human being capable of life on it's own.

When it is a fetus that you've created your opinion may change.

[MannyIsGod]

When it is a fetus that you've created your opinion may change.

Really? I doubt it, but I suppose anything is possible.

I already think all abortions are horrible, but I also don't believe I want the government making decisions for me when it's not the governments choice.

A zygote isn't a human, and neither is an early first trimester fetus. Thats my opinion now, and I'm sure I'll hold it when I have children of my own.

However, I don't plan on ever putting myself in a position to have to choose whether or not to advocate an abortion in my own life.

[Spurminator]

When it's your daughter (or girlfriend) yours may change as well.

But emotional attachment is not very conducive to clear, logical thinking anyway.

[Samurai Jane]

Why don't you consider a zygote or first trimester fetus a human?

[JoeChalupa]

I can't remember right now but I believe there was going to be a show on PBS about early development in the womb.

I don't know about anybody else but when my wife was pregnant and I could see the small heart beat that was all it took for me.

And yes, it was a very emotional time and it does probably is not very conducive to clear, logical thinking but my heart didn't need it anyways.

I cherish the sonogram pictures of my children.

[Duff McCartney]

Where's the magic line in the sand? What's that point where you can say "yesterday it was only a zygote, but today he/she is a human being"?

The line is the womans vagina.

[MannyIsGod]

Because it can't survive on it's own if it was "born" then.

[Spurminator]

I propose that the beginning of "life" is irrelevant to the discussion of abortion, as far as its legality.

I've got a hypothetical...

Let's say that because of a new law, a woman is pulled over for failing to fasten her seat belt and is told that, as punishment, she is required to host a fetus until birth. The original mother had passed away shortly after conception, but doctors managed to save the fetus. However, the fetus needs a host mother (particularly one with this woman's rare blood type) or it will die. The new law requires that any woman caught speeding is required to be a host Mother.

Is this a fair law? These women KNOW what they're risking when they speed... and besides, they don't need to speed. They should be driving the speed limit.

Any thoughts?

[GoldToe]

8 weeks http://www.wprc.org/image/photos/08weeks2_208x213.jpg

The unborn child, called a fetus at this stage, is about half an inch long. The tiny person is protected by the amnionic sac, filled with fluid. Inside, the child swims and moves gracefully. The arms and legs have lengthened, and fingers can be seen. The toes will develop in the next few days. Brain waves can be measured.

Looks human to me.

[Guru of Nothing]

However, I don't plan on ever putting myself in a position to have to choose whether or not to advocate an abortion in my own life.

Manny, your sex life has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with abortion.

I know you know this, but it makes for interesting fodder to ponder why your intentions matter in the least when it comes arguing where to draw the line in the sand.

It's as if you are better than those who resort to abortion.

[NeoConIV]

I am pro-forced pregnancies.
Gasp! A forced pregnancy!! What could be worse than that!! Dear GOD!! What is this crazy world coming to!!!

Can you imagine? Murdering your unborn son or daughter not an option? What sicko ever thought that up?!


I mean, c'mon! I have sex and get pregnant and I HAVE to give birth to the little brat?! This is an OUTRAGE!!!

[Nbadan]

For most Republicans, the right to life ends at birth.

Perhaps no other wedge issue other than the gay-marriage issue has been abused more by the Republican leadership. Republicans know that over 60% of the population still strongly support the right to choice, so to come out and actively seek legislation that would infringe on this right would be cutting their own political necks. Instead the adminstration and some state legislators have taken the back-handed approach of helping to appoint Federal judges who are sympathetic toward anti-choice views. So when these crazy 'activist judges' start passing laws such as notification requirements or a State law recently proposed by one 'activist' Judge to show propective abortion recepients pictures of a actual abortion, the WH can just claim they can't be responsible for the actions of the judiciary. Yeah, right.

[MannyIsGod]

Manny, your sex life has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with abortion.

I know you know this, but it makes for interesting fodder to ponder why your intentions matter in the least when it comes arguing where to draw the line in the sand.

It's as if you are better than those who resort to abortion.


You did look at the Chalupa post above mine right?

Joe said I would feel differently in that situation, and I said I would never put myself in it. You can't see relevance?

And if they don't matter in the least why make an issue about them by replying with it quoted?

But, I do feel I am better than those who use abortion as birth control. You can, disagree, that is your opinion and this is mine.

[Nbadan]

More from the crazies (http://www.kbcitv.com/x5154.xml?ParentPageID=x5157&ContentID=x62624&Layout=KBCI.xsl&AdGroupID=x5154) who think that if only women knew that being pregnant means that you are on the road to having a baby of your very own, then you certainly would never consider getting an abortion.


BOISE - Republican Representative Ann Rydalch wants the state to require doctors to show women pictures of a fetus before an abortion. But her legislation may not be supported by all of the state's anti-abortion groups.

Rydalch's bill also would force doctors to give women information about abortion alternatives, and tell them that abortion could increase the risk for breast cancer. The National Institutes of Health denies any link between abortion and breast cancer, however.

"Informed consent" is an anti-choice catchphrase that has absolutely nothing to do with the traditionally understanding of what information is--you know, the whole facts and truths stuff that the rest of us think of when we think of being "informed". Telling women that they are going to get breast cancer if they have an abortion is lies, not information. You might as well tell them that if they dare abort, god will curse them for life by making toads and snakes fly out of their mouths when they speak.

As for the pictures thing, I doubt the pictures that Rep. Rydalch wants to show of fetuses would be constrained to pictures of fetuses at the same point in the pregnancy that most women are aborting at. It just doesn't have the same impact to show a one-month fetus that doesn't resemble a human as it does to show an 8-month one.

These proposed laws that treat women like ignorant children that need to be scolded in order to get an abortion get sillier all the time. What next? A law stating that a woman has to sincerely promise never to fornicate again before she earns her Constitutional right to terminate her pregnancy?

Mousewords.blogspot (http://mousewords.blogspot.com/)

[NeoConIV]

Spare me the legalese Dan, abortion stops a beating heart, abortion is murder.

[NameDropper]

Maybe we should require all cigarette vendors to show pictures of a cancer filled lung before they sell a pack of smokes.
Liquor stores must shows a picture of a damaged liver.
Pharmacy workers must show pictures of STD's before they sell condoms or birth control devices.
Bakery's must show pictures of obese people before they can sell any donuts.

[IcemanCometh]

So neocon if abortion is muder what should the penalty be.

[NeoConIV]

Abortionist, woman having abortion, and anyone complicit in encouraging the murder, should be prosecuted for murder, since that's what it is, and should face the normal sentance for murder.

If we could phase in this proper and moral paradigm, and get out of our current tragically incorrect paradigm of legal murder, that would be a good thing.

STOP THE KILLING OF OUR MOST INNOCENT. STOP THE HOLOCAUST.

[NeoConIV]

And for the love of God, can you get rid of that work unfriendly sig of yours Ice?

It was funny the first time I saw it...the novelty has completely worn off...

[JoeChalupa]

I heard this morning on KTSA about a woman who got pregnant with her mate's sperm and they didn't even have intercourse..? I found that hard to swallow until I found out she didn't. That sucks!

The dude just found about it, 2 years after.

Has nothing to do with this topic..just found it odd.

[dcole50]

Abortionist, woman having abortion, and anyone complicit in encouraging the murder, should be prosecuted for murder, since that's what it is, and should face the normal sentance for murder.

If we could phase in this proper and moral paradigm, and get out of our current tragically incorrect paradigm of legal murder, that would be a good thing.

STOP THE KILLING OF OUR MOST INNOCENT. STOP THE HOLOCAUST.

even for situations involving rape? that is a case where i believe there should be an exception.

[Jekka]

I believe that partial-birth abortions are wrong, and to some degree, so are second trimester abortions (although I understand that in some cases women may have to wait that long to either the money together, etc) but really, I think that if you haven't had an abortion by the end of the first trimester then you need to just stick it out and have the baby - there's adoption if you don't feel that you have the means necessary to raise a child (this is coming from someone who is adopted - adoption does work, but I do not feel that it is a substitute for abortion). Abortion is a woman's choice, it's her body, but she does need to get her shit in gear if she plans on having one. The way partial birth abortions are performed are such that I can't see anyone wanting to have one unless their life is in danger.

When birth control becomes more accessible and acceptable (and sex education becomes adequate) for a greater percentage of the population then my views on the acceptability of abortion may change - but a woman should not be forced to go through a pregnancy and give birth to a child just because she decided to be sexually active. That's ridiculous. And don't get me started on how shitty a lot of fathers are for their children that they wouldn't let their women abort or wouldn't help pay for an abortion or just disappeared after getting them pregnant - and don't get me started on the stigma attached to female sexuality in a patriarchal society - because a lot of it comes down to that as well. If men were the ones that got pregnant, we wouldn't have to fight about whether or not it was okay to have abortions in most cases.

[travis2]

I believe that partial-birth abortions are wrong, and to some degree, so are second trimester abortions (although I understand that in some cases women may have to wait that long to either the money together, etc) but really, I think that if you haven't had an abortion by the end of the first trimester then you need to just stick it out and have the baby - there's adoption if you don't feel that you have the means necessary to raise a child (this is coming from someone who is adopted - adoption does work, but I do not feel that it is a substitute for abortion). Abortion is a woman's choice, it's her body, but she does need to get her shit in gear if she plans on having one. The way partial birth abortions are performed are such that I can't see anyone wanting to have one unless their life is in danger.

When birth control becomes more accessible and acceptable (and sex education becomes adequate) for a greater percentage of the population then my views on the acceptability of abortion may change - but a woman should not be forced to go through a pregnancy and give birth to a child just because she decided to be sexually active. That's ridiculous. And don't get me started on how shitty a lot of fathers are for their children that they wouldn't let their women abort or wouldn't help pay for an abortion or just disappeared after getting them pregnant - and don't get me started on the stigma attached to female sexuality in a patriarchal society - because a lot of it comes down to that as well. If men were the ones that got pregnant, we wouldn't have to fight about whether or not it was okay to have abortions in most cases.

Well, then don't get me started about women who choose to be sexually active but expect to be able to put the male into indentured servitude if she chooses to have the child without his consent.

The myth of "choice" is that the pro-abortionists have no problem whatsoever forcing someone else to do something. Hypocrisy is a virtue, evidently.

[JoeChalupa]

Well, then don't get me started about women who choose to be sexually active but expect to be able to put the male into indentured servitude if she chooses to have the child without his consent.

The myth of "choice" is that the pro-abortionists have no problem whatsoever forcing someone else to do something. Hypocrisy is a virtue, evidently.

If a man has sex with a woman he is "consenting" that there is a chance she may get pregnant. If a man doesn't want to be placed in that situation then go home and beat it.

[Jekka]

Well, then don't get me started about women who choose to be sexually active but expect to be able to put the male into indentured servitude if she chooses to have the child without his consent.

The myth of "choice" is that the pro-abortionists have no problem whatsoever forcing someone else to do something. Hypocrisy is a virtue, evidently.

Hey, it was the man's choice to have sex in this scenario as well - don't lecture me on hypocrisy.

[travis2]

If a man has sex with a woman he is "consenting" that there is a chance she may get pregnant. If a man doesn't want to be placed in that situation then go home and beat it.

If a woman has sex with a man she is "consenting" that there is a chance she may get pregnant. If a woman doesn't want to be placed in that situation, then go home and use a vibrator.

[travis2]

Hey, it was the man's choice to have sex in this scenario as well - don't lecture me on hypocrisy.


You missed the point.

The responsibility is shared. Everyone always wants to talk about the woman's choice to have the child...but it's the man's responsibility to support it.

This is actually logical to you?

[NeoConIV]

I just don't know how one can rationalize and dance around the central fact that abortion is murder.

[travis2]

I just don't know how one can rationalize and dance around the central fact that abortion is murder.


Neo, I agree with you. I'm just trying to point out the logical inconsistency of the "choice" argument as currently presented.

[MannyIsGod]

Neo, it's not dancing around. A group of cells is not a human anymore than a culture of cells from the inside of your mouth is. I do not commit murder when I cut my hair, and I do not commit murder when I jack off.

[Jekka]

You missed the point.

The responsibility is shared. Everyone always wants to talk about the woman's choice to have the child...but it's the man's responsibility to support it.

This is actually logical to you?

You act like the woman gives birth, hands the child to the father and says, "Sayonara". It's a shared responsibility to support a child - what is this whole "man's responsibility" in bold about? Post-partum disappearance is not a frequently documented condition that I am aware of.

[NeoConIV]

Neo, it's not dancing around. A group of cells is not a human anymore than a culture of cells from the inside of your mouth is. I do not commit murder when I cut my hair, and I do not commit murder when I jack off.
Scientifically, that's utter nonsense, given the very basics of human reproduction.

[travis2]

You act like the woman gives birth, hands the child to the father and says, "Sayonara". It's a shared responsibility to support a child - what is this whole "man's responsibility" in bold about? Post-partum disappearance is not a frequently documented condition that I am aware of.

Scenario: A man and a woman engage in consensual sex.

If the woman wants the child, but not the man, she has the choice to keep it, and legally force the man to support it for the next 18 years.

If the man wants the child, but not the woman, she has the choice to abort it regardless of the wishes of the father.

The "pro-choice" movement accepts these two outcomes as logically consistent.

The "pro-choice" movement can be succinctly described using the following statement (by the woman): "My body is completely my own and I can do anything I wish with it. No one can force me to do anything. However, this choice only applies to me, not to you."


Jekka, the fact is, as I see it, when a man and a woman agree to have sex, and the woman gets pregnant, then both the man and the woman have a responsibility to that child. The points I brought up are an attempt to show just how logically and ethically inconsistent the "choice" arguments truly are. They are not an attempt by me to advocate fathers abandoning their children. Actually, it's an attempt by me to advocate both parents "growing up" and accepting responsibility for their joint actions.

[Spurminator]

Let's say that because of a new law, a woman is pulled over for failing to fasten her seat belt and is told that, as punishment, she is required to host a fetus until birth. The original mother had passed away shortly after conception, but doctors managed to save the fetus. However, the fetus needs a host mother (particularly one with this woman's rare blood type) or it will die. The new law requires that any woman caught speeding is required to be a host Mother.

Is this a fair law? These women KNOW what they're risking when they speed... and besides, they don't need to speed. They should be driving the speed limit.

[Jekka]

I forgot to login.

[JoeChalupa]

You missed the point.

The responsibility is shared. Everyone always wants to talk about the woman's choice to have the child...but it's the man's responsibility to support it.

This is actually logical to you?

Any man who won't take responsibility for their child is no man in my book.

But I get your point.

[JoeChalupa]

I'm anti-abortion, pro-choice.


Where is Yonivore?

[MannyIsGod]

Scientifically, that's utter nonsense, given the very basics of human reproduction.

And there you have my feelings torwards your claiming the abortion of a zygote is murder.

[MannyIsGod]

Scenario: A man and a woman engage in consensual sex.

If the woman wants the child, but not the man, she has the choice to keep it, and legally force the man to support it for the next 18 years.


Actually, I used to think that too Travis. But it's now my understanding that a father can waive his rights to the child, a legal abortion persay, and not be liable for child support. I may be wrong, but that is what I understand now. I'm trying to find out online.



If the man wants the child, but not the woman, she has the choice to abort it regardless of the wishes of the father.


This is the most difficult aspect of it for me. I would want a say in any abortion scenario I was in, and legally I have none.

However, I can see where a woman shouldn't be forced by a father to carry a child to full term against her wishes.

It's a tough call, but I just can't find a way to justify making a woman carry an unwanted pregnancy to full term aginast her will.

[travis2]

Actually, I used to think that too Travis. But it's now my understanding that a father can waive his rights to the child, a legal abortion persay, and not be liable for child support. I may be wrong, but that is what I understand now. I'm trying to find out online.

My understanding is that is not correct. But if you find anything different, post it here.

That position is my second place position. A distant second place, but second place nonetheless. It is at least an ethically and logically consistent position.

[Shelly]

I think you can waive your rights but can reclaim them? Like in a case where a baby is given up for adoption but then the biological parents or parent change their mind? Not sure.

[Shelly]

I also want to add that I have a file close to 3 inches thick for garnishment of wages for all the dead beat dads that have worked for us over the years. Some of these guys have 2 or more children (There are many different kinds and some list how many dependents with ages, etc). Unfortunately, by the time I receive them, we have already laid them off as most of our ironworkers are hired out of the hall on an as needed per job basis.

I also have a lot for IRS dodgers, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms.

[NeoConIV]

And there you have my feelings torwards your claiming the abortion of a zygote is murder.
That zygote is human at it's earliest stage. Huuuumaaaan. It's LIFE. Not one of your sperm, like in you jack off reference. A sperm cell will not become a human. We all know that. Your arguement is rationalization, pure and simple. If you halt the natural process of life beginning at conception, it's murder.

[Jekka]

I think you can waive your rights but can reclaim them? Like in a case where a baby is given up for adoption but then the biological parents or parent change their mind? Not sure.

In any decision involving a child the decision you make is the one you need to stick with. I've read about cases where the birthparents change their minds, and that's not at all fair to the child, because in this country, court cases like that drag on for years, and it ruins a child's most important developmental stages. Mothers also have 48 hours after giving birth to change their minds without consequence, which is why in most cases the mother is kept in the hospital for that time - adopted children don't go straight to the adoptive parents - my sister and I were both adopted as newborns and my parents didn't receive us until I was 12 days old (only because my adoption was interstate) and my sister was 3 days old. They give you a cushion to prevent those cases.

[Samurai Jane]

This seems like a good time to dust off an old favorite..

http://www.vanderbilt.edu/SFL/dnirving_--_human_beginning.htm

[Bandit2981]

That zygote is human at it's earliest stage. Huuuumaaaan. It's LIFE. Not one of your sperm, like in you jack off reference. A sperm cell will not become a human. We all know that. Your arguement is rationalization, pure and simple. If you halt the natural process of life beginning at conception, it's murder.
a sperm cell WILL become human if it seeds an egg...a zygote will only become human if it has a womb to grow in. both wont produce anything by themselves, and need a second part to make the process happen. so, if you think killing a zygote is murder, then jacking off is murder as well

[NeoConIV]

This seems like a good time to dust off an old favorite..

http://www.vanderbilt.edu/SFL/dnirving_--_human_beginning.htm



Fact 3: As demonstrated above, scientifically there is absolutely no question whatsoever that the immediate product of fertilization is a newly existing human being. A human zygote is a human being. It is not a "potential" or a "possible" human being. It's an actual human being — with the potential to grow bigger and develop its capacities.
Yep.

[Shelly]

I knew there was a time period she could change her mind. Thanks for the info.

What about cases where the father didn't know about the baby and it's adopted? Wasn't there a court case where the father tried to get the baby after it was adopted?

[Samurai Jane]

a sperm cell WILL become human if it seeds an egg...a zygote will only become human if it has a womb to grow in. both wont produce anything by themselves, and need a second part to make the process happen. so, if you think killing a zygote is murder, then jacking off is murder as well

A sperm cell on it's own does not satisfy one of the criteria for biological life.. growth.

[Bandit2981]

a zygote on its own wont grow either without a womb...im with Joe on this one, i dont like abortions, but i feel its the mothers choice and she must live with either outcome of her decision for the rest of her life.

[Spurminator]

We just need to figure out a way to nurse a zygote to full health without the mother's womb. Then this whole argument can finally die.

[desflood]

I knew there was a time period she could change her mind. Thanks for the info.

What about cases where the father didn't know about the baby and it's adopted? Wasn't there a court case where the father tried to get the baby after it was adopted?
I believe that's actually happened several times. If a father doesn't know about the child and the mother puts it up for adoption, he never signed away his parental rights and can later apply for custody.

[Bandit2981]

We just need to figure out a way to nurse a zygote to full health without the mother's womb. Then this whole argument can finally die.
im all for research to let us be born from eggs like a bird :drunk

[Samurai Jane]

a zygote on its own wont grow either without a womb...im with Joe on this one, i dont like abortions, but i feel its the mothers choice and she must live with either outcome of her decision for the rest of her life.

And you don't grow without food.. that's a silly argument... A sperm needs additional genetic information to go anywhere and ceases to exist once it fertilizes an egg.


First, the human conceptus -- that which results from conception and begins as a zygote -- is the sexual product of human parents. Hence, insofar as having human causes, the conceptus is human.

Second, not only is the conceptus human insofar as being caused by humans, it is a unique human individual, just as each of us is. Resulting from the union of the female ovum (which contains 23 chromosomes) and the male sperm (which contains 23 chromosomes), the conceptus is a new -- although tiny -- individual. It has its own unique genetic code (with forty-six chromosomes), which is neither the mother's nor the father's. From this point until death, no new genetic information is needed to make the unborn entity a unique individual human. Her (or his) genetic make-up is established at conception, determining her unique individual physical characteristics -- gender, eye color, bone structure, hair color, skin color, susceptibility to certain diseases, etc. That is to say, at conception, the "genotype" -- the inherited characteristics of a unique human being -- is established and will remain in force for the entire life of this individual. Although sharing the same nature with all human beings, the unborn individual, like each one of us, is unlike any that has been conceived before and unlike any that will ever be conceived again. The only thing necessary for the growth and development of this human organism (as with the rest of us) is oxygen, food, and water, since this organism -- like the newborn, the infant, and the adolescent -- needs only to develop in accordance with her already-designed nature that is present at conception.

This is why French geneticist Jermoe L. LeJeune, while testifying before a Senate Subcommittee, asserted: "To accept the fact that after fertilization has taken place a new human has come into being is no longer a matter of taste or opinion. The human nature of the human being from conception to old age is not a metaphysical contention, it is plain experimental evidence." [2]

There is hence no doubt that the development of a unique individual human life begins at conception. It is vital that you -- the reader -- understand that you did not come from a zygote, you once were a zygote; you did not come from an embryo, you once were an embryo; you did not come from a fetus, you once were a fetus; you did not come from an adolescent, you once were an adolescent. Consequently, each one of us has experienced these various developmental stages of life. None of these stages, however, imparted to us our humanity.

[Spurminator]

im all for research to let us be born from eggs like a bird

I know plenty of women who would agree.

[Samurai Jane]

We just need to figure out a way to nurse a zygote to full health without the mother's womb. Then this whole argument can finally die.

No, that's treating the symptom and not the problem.. we need women and men to be more responsible for their own actions. If you can't have a baby, you don't want a baby, a baby would inconvenience you, then you take the necessary measures to keep from getting pregnant in the first place. Planned parenthood gives out free condoms and free birth control pills... there are ways. This has nothing to do with feminine sexuality and everything to do with just thinking ahead! I think something like 98% of abortions are performed as a measure of birth control.

[NeoConIV]

Where is Yonivore?
Someone needs to resurrect his ass.

[Bandit2981]

Planned parenthood gives out free condoms and free birth control pills
NOOOOOOOO a study was done and found Planned Parenthood condoms were the absolute worst on the market! make the trip to CVS or something :king

[NeoConIV]

No, that's treating the symptom and not the problem.. we need women and men to be more responsible for their own actions. If you can't have a baby, you don't want a baby, a baby would inconvenience you, then you take the necessary measures to keep from getting pregnant in the first place. Planned parenthood gives out free condoms and free birth control pills... there are ways. This has nothing to do with feminine sexuality and everything to do with just thinking ahead! I think something like 98% of abortions are performed as a measure of birth control.
Well said.

Another whole sinister and sickening situation is how abortionists get hooked on the $$$ from performing abortions, and how this taints the so-called "objective family planning". It's scary when an abortion clinic has a bottom line too. Think about unborn Johnny, whose mother is truly on the fence about keeping or aborting, and the mother goes to clinic who is behind on bills. Gotta keep the lights on Johnny, sorry bout that. We're gonna have to go ahead coerce mommy to get the abortion so we can get paid. Better luck next time buddy.

Ooops. Oh yeah, there is no phuqqing next time.

[Spurminator]

That's fine and good, Jane, but you can't criminalize sexual irresponsibility.

Once the pregnancy happens, the woman has two choices: abortion, or 9 months of pregnancy. Those on the anti-abortion side want to force 9 months of pregnancy on someone who does not want the pregnancy, all because she had sex.

If we are able to surgically remove a zygote or fetus and still raise it to health, we protect the rights of both the baby and the mother. As it is right now, somebody's rights have to be prioritized, and the difference of opinion lies in whose rights to prioritize.

[NeoConIV]

But Spurm, the entire crux of my arguement rests on abortion = murder. When it comes right down to it, I couldn't care less about any other arguement for abortion. If abortion is murder, and I most certainly believe it is, that trumps everything else. Period. End of discussion.

[JoeChalupa]

Is Bush guilty of "murder" for the deaths in Iraq?

[Bandit2981]

Neo, are you against all abortions no matter what, or do you approve of abortions in certain cases like rape, incest, medical health of the mother, etc..?

[Spurminator]

Your belief that abortion is murder is based on your moral/religious/philosophical beliefs, none of which have any place in law.

Is killing a burglar out of self defense murder as well?

[NeoConIV]

Is Bush guilty of "murder" for the deaths in Iraq?
Murder cannot be a result of armed conflict, as in Iraq. If a soldier shoots down an unarmed Iraqi, then that's murder, in simplest terms. Would you agree or no?

[Jekka]

I believe that's actually happened several times. If a father doesn't know about the child and the mother puts it up for adoption, he never signed away his parental rights and can later apply for custody.

While it is shitty that the mother told the father that there was a baby ... at the same time you have to wonder about where the father was throughout the entire pregnancy.

Depends also on how late he applies for custody - in the case of a newborn adoption, the child will grow up thinking whoever raised him or her are the real parents unless told otherwise - getting into a custody battle where the child doesn't know what's going or who the parents really are, being told different things ... the father in that case needs to know when to back away for the sake of the child. I'm also personally against open adoptions as well ... not smart to do that, although nowadays, most of them are - which sucks for the adoptive parents.

[Jekka]

NOOOOOOOO a study was done and found Planned Parenthood condoms were the absolute worst on the market! make the trip to CVS or something :king

No kidding - and I've had friends that have had problems with their birth control pills as well. They use a generic brand, and according to the FDA, in the US generic brands have to be 86% as effective as the name brand to be put on the market - and birth control pills are not something you want to be 86% effective.

[Samurai Jane]

No kidding - and I've had friends that have had problems with their birth control pills as well. They use a generic brand, and according to the FDA, in the US generic brands have to be 86% as effective as the name brand to be put on the market - and birth control pills are not something you want to be 86% effective.

When I went there, they gave me name brand and I never had any problems. *shrug* Anyway, my point is, there are ways of prevention. I haven't done any research, but it just occured to me... I wonder what the statistics are for those that had accidental pregnancies due to the contraceptives failing compared to those that were just plain lazy...

[Shelly]

I'm sure a lot of women don't know that you're supposed to take the pill around the same time every day. Doctors never tell you that. I guess they assume one reads the too small print insert.

[NeoConIV]

Neo, are you against all abortions no matter what, or do you approve of abortions in certain cases like rape, incest, medical health of the mother, etc..?
It interesting you mention this. I'm reluctant to bring this up, but it's all too relevant. My sister in law was kidnapped and raped 2002. Her husband and two others were murdered during the same incident. The whole ordeal was inconceivably heinous. At the hospital, after SAPD literally saved her life from the captor, who was about to kill her before they intercepted him with my sis in law, they took a pregnancy test and it was negative. They gave her a morning after pill just to be sure. Now, had she been pregnant, and they gave her the pill and she agreed to it, that, by definition is murder. Circumstances don't change facts. I can't change that, no one can. The unborn don't get to choose their parents. A person that was conceived most unfortunately by a rapist, is basically screwed if the mother wants an abortion. So in the situation of conception through rape, I believe that no matter how excruciatingly difficult carrying the baby of a rapist might be, it's still the right choice. Aborting is still the wrong choice. But OF COURSE, I understand the mother's point of view. And to that end, I would be for a stipulation saying that the unborn conceived by rapists could be terminated. Not that it wouldn't still be murder, it would, but maybe there should be a stipulation that removes legal constraints in that extreme situation. But then of course you would have women crying rape left and right and that would surely make a gigantic mess of everything. False accusations to couch an abortion...I shudder at the thought.

So in a nutshell, no matter what the circumstances, terminating a life is, and will always be terminating a life. You can't sugar coat, dress up, or pretend abortion is something different from what it really is. It's denying a conceived person a right to life. I am for preserving that right as far as humanly possible. If a mother has the courage to take a baby to term with the father a rapist, if the mother decides to carry through with an abortion which would put her life in danger, I have boundless respect for those mothers. If they decided to abort in those situations, I do understand, but mourn the loss of the buggers who never got a shot.

[NeoConIV]

I wonder how many unborn babies have met Mr Forcep, Mr. Saline solution, or Mr Vaccum while we've been having this discussion?

[Jekka]

I'm sure a lot of women don't know that you're supposed to take the pill around the same time every day. Doctors never tell you that. I guess they assume one reads the too small print insert.

I doubt most people actually read the inserts on the prescription medicine they are taking - although, with cycline and tricycline birth control pills, such as Ortho Tricycline, etc, it is suggested that you take them the same time everyday as a routine more than anything, because the insert also tells you that if you miss a day you just take the next pill whenever you remember and if you miss two days take the two missed doses and continue as usual - so the time table is flexible if you just remember to take one every day, it's not that hard. Progesterone birth control pills on the other hand you really do have to take everyday at the same time because the hormones aren't quite as potent - it's just as effective, but you can't slack on it at all.

But for women who can't remember to take the pill, there's also the new patch thing - and if insurance companies would fucking step up and cover more things like depo-provera shots it would also help since those are either once a month or once every three months depending on what kind you're using.

Insurance companies are notorious for bad coverage of birth control and other preventative medicine though - and what really ticks me off are the companies that will cover Viagra and not birth control. They'll pay for the guy to get it up but they won't pay if he knocks her up.

On that note, another case for the right to an abortion is the fact that most insurance companies will not cover prenatal care.

[Jekka]

When I went there, they gave me name brand and I never had any problems. *shrug* Anyway, my point is, there are ways of prevention. I haven't done any research, but it just occured to me... I wonder what the statistics are for those that had accidental pregnancies due to the contraceptives failing compared to those that were just plain lazy...

My friend's sister was on a different recently - she got pregnant while on it and was taking it as directed - when she went to her OB/GYN the doctor said that in the past couple weeks she had had three or four other cases of this happening while on that same medication. Maybe it was a bad batch ... I don't know. But there is a lot of laziness when it comes to contraceptives failing - and miseducation.

[MannyIsGod]

Look, if we're going to get on the whole sexual responsiblity soapbox here....

THEN I WANT SOME OF YOU ALL COMPLAINING ABOUT EDUCATION BEING OFFERED IN SCHOOLS RIGHT NOW

Enough of the abstinence only bullshit and lets actually get the facts out to the kids. I don't like abortion one bit. NOT ONE DAMN BIT. But it's not murder.

I think you could do a lot to curb pregnancies by full educating people on proper biology and give up the stupid farse of supposed innocence.

[JoeChalupa]

Only abstinence is 100% fool proof.

[MannyIsGod]

Thats a great line Joe. Let's teach them that ALONG with other forms of sex education.

[NameDropper]

Rumor has that the problems with OTHER forms of sex education is not one is 100% safe against STD's or pregnancy. Shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out which is the best choice.

[Shelly]

Jekka--I was on the patch for 2 years for that very reason--I'm a terrible pill taker, but i switched back to the pill for reason I won't make public..:lol

My insurance only knocked a few bucks off the patch, it was still around $35. The pill is only $20 for me. Don't know why it's different.

I never understood why most insurance companies won't pay for birth control, yet they will pay for a birth. When my kids were born 12 and 9 years ago, the bill was between $3-5K. Of course, my kids were born in San Francisco so I'm sure my hospital rates were higher.

[MannyIsGod]

not really Shelly. It's really expensive here too.

And yeah, we shoudl definetly put all of our eggs in one basket Name. Because teaching children about abstinence means none of them will ever have sex.

[Spurminator]

There's a reason the Baby Boom occurred right after one of the most socially (and sexually) conservative times in our history.

[desflood]

I read a couple of months ago in the Washington Times that the percentage of births to unwed, teenage mothers has gone down in the last few years... among those that were taught abstinence. The percentage rate remained the same for those who received regular prevention-based sex ed classes. I'll try to find that link tomorrow.

[Guru of Nothing]

It's all about convenience.

Next time something does not go your way, recognize that somebody with a little more pull imposed their will upon you solely because it was convenient - whether it involve abortion, tuition, or a 1% pay-raise.

It's ALWAYS about someone else's convenience.

[Shelly]

Terrible! (http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1108509013203&call_pageid=970599119419)

[JohnnyMarzetti]

http://www.whitehouse.org/initiatives/posters/images/tn-choose-life.jpg