What if the Yanks don't get, Sabbathia, Lowe, Burnett?

[ducks]

With no playoffs in 2008 and a new stadium opening in 2009, the New York Yankees are trying their hardest to make the three top free-agent starting pitchers extremely rich. But it takes two parties to finish a deal.

Imagine the horror in the Big Apple if the Yankees somehow struck out on CC Sabathia, A.J. Burnett and Derek Lowe.

That would be the ultimate low blow to the Yankees' self-esteem and would leave manager Joe Girardi wondering how he's going to fill the 200 innings he got from Mike Mussina, who is retiring. It might force general manager Brian Cashman to stop trying to get Andy Pettitte to take a pay cut. And it could happen.

It's easy to think of players as the ultimate mercenaries, but the highest offer doesn't guarantee a deal. Remember when the late Syd Thrift said he felt like he was offering "Confederate money" when free agents wouldn't come to Baltimore under any terms?

No one is suggesting the Yankees have slipped as badly as the Orioles under Peter Angelos, but it's not a slam dunk that they are going to be able to money-whip Sabathia, Burnett or Lowe.

The Yankees reportedly opened bidding with Sabathia at a record $140 million over six years, but it has become clear Sabathia wants to explore other options, especially any from his native California or in the National League (he loves to hit). The Los Angeles Angels, Los Angeles Dodgers and San Francisco Giants (Sabathia's hometown team) are expected to enter the bidding, making it even more unlikely he'll return to Milwaukee.

Source: Chicago Tribune

Related: Mike Mussina, Andy Pettitte, Derek Lowe, A.J. Burnett, CC Sabathia, Los Angeles Angels, Los Angeles Dodgers, New York Yankees, San Francisco Giants

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/rumors/post/What-if-the-Yanks-don-t-get-Sabbathia-Lowe-Bu;_ylt=AktCxasMJCe_eY93dKDj57Kpu7YF?urn=mlb,12519 3

[bostonguy]

Wont matter who the yanks get. The sox have them cursed and will for quite some time. That means losing in the ALDS assuming they can break Joe Torre's curse first.

[samikeyp]

Horror for who? I think it would be pretty funny!

[Thunder Dan]

I think it's funny that CC doesn't want to go to New York. The media and their fans think that every player in MLB wants to come play for the Yankees...what are they going to say when CC says "thanks, but no thanks"

[JamStone]

I don't know that it's so much CC not wanting to go to New York as much as it is CC wanting to be back in California and in the national league where he can hit. I think those two factors are priorities in CC's decision. I think it's a matter of him not being awed and overwhelmed that the Yankees want him, not necessarily him not wanting to go there. But, I could be wrong. A lot of players are like "OMG, the Yankees want me?!" CC knows he's good. And, he knows he's going to get paid wherever he goes. So, it's more of a matter with what other variables may come into play with his decision.

The Yankees should be able to get at least one of the top pitching free agents. You got to believe if they don't get CC, they'll get AJ Burnett or Lowe. It's not like they had a horrible record last year. With Chien Ming Wang back and one more decent starting pitcher, they'll be right in the mix for next year.

[Thunder Dan]

I think it's funny because when he wore a Yankees hat to a NBA game a couple years ago, people in New York just expected him to show up and play for the Yanks

http://ballsiest.com/sportsblog/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/cc-sabathia.jpg

[Reggie Miller]

If the Yankees miss out on the first tier guys, they may do a lot of teams some favors by eating some crap contracts or assuming some major risks. I could see them taking a guy like Marquis in trade if they became desperate enough.

My prediction: Sabathia and Lowe do not sign with New York. The Yankees end up bringing back Petitte and signing an albatross like Ben Sheets.

[JamStone]

I think it's funny because when he wore a Yankees hat to a NBA game a couple years ago, people in New York just expected him to show up and play for the Yanks

http://ballsiest.com/sportsblog/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/cc-sabathia.jpg


http://i469.photobucket.com/albums/rr53/kenoshax/moneytalks.gif

[ATRAIN]

Just heard on the news that Sabathia agreed with the yanks.

[Thunder Dan]

signing a big deal to pitch in New York is the kiss of death. Best of luck to him he is going to need it

[sribb43]

CC better pitch 35-0 including the postseason or he will get booed out of NY

[misterx91578]

Just heard on the news that Sabathia agreed with the yanks.

7 years 160

[Thunder Dan]

I heard it has a clause where CC can opt out of it after a year or 2

[Dr. Gonzo]

The Yankees will still suck this season. They still have shit for pitching and they have absolutely no chemistry what so ever.

[bostonguy]

:lmao:lmao:lmao at The Yankees throwing crazy money at CC. CC is good but he isnt that good. He will have his share of good and bad games this season. The Yanks will have a great o but the pitching will still suck. They are poised to finish 3rd in the division behind Tampa and boston

[Reggie Miller]

signing a big deal to pitch in New York is the kiss of death. Best of luck to him he is going to need it


Sure seems that way, doesn't it?

[JamStone]

Are you guys serious? Do you guys fail to remember that the Yankees number 1 pitcher, Chien Ming Wang, missed over half the season and the Yankees still only missed the playoffs by 6 games? Wang was 8-2 in 15 starts. If he just goes 7-7 in the other 18-20 starts he should have had, the Yankees are in the playoffs last year. The previous two seasons, Wang won 19 games each.

And, while CC might not be "that" good as it relates to how much they're paying him, he's still an improvement to the rotation. He's still a solid #1 guy and if you consider him the #2 guy after Wang, probably the best #2 pitcher in the AL.

As far as signing with the Yankees being the kiss of death, that's not completely true. Roger Clemens didn't have a perfect start to his Yankee career, but he still won two World Series rings and a Cy Young with the Yankees. And, Mike Mussina had a very good Yankee career, despite the ups and downs. It's not the easiest place to play, but it's not necessarily going to be the "kiss of death" for CC.

[Reggie Miller]

If the Yankees miss out on the first tier guys, they may do a lot of teams some favors by eating some crap contracts or assuming some major risks. I could see them taking a guy like Marquis in trade if they became desperate enough.

My prediction: Sabathia and Lowe do not sign with New York. The Yankees end up bringing back Petitte and signing an albatross like Ben Sheets.


So far, I have been batting 0.000. I still don't think they get Lowe and Burnett as well, however. Assuming that's true, I would think Petitte actually ends up coming back, after all.

[Mad_Hatter]

Are you guys serious? Do you guys fail to remember that the Yankees number 1 pitcher, Chien Ming Wang, missed over half the season and the Yankees still only missed the playoffs by 6 games? Wang was 8-2 in 15 starts. If he just goes 7-7 in the other 18-20 starts he should have had, the Yankees are in the playoffs last year. The previous two seasons, Wang won 19 games each.
depends what the record of the starters that filled in for Wang was... if it was 7-7 it would not have mattered. it would have to be like 2-12 to matter.

[Vinnie_Johnson]

signing a big deal to pitch in New York is the kiss of death. Best of luck to him he is going to need it

http://blog.nj.com/ledgerupdates_impact/2008/02/large_santan0229.jpg

Tell that to Santana he was pure money.

[Reggie Miller]

Are you guys serious? Do you guys fail to remember that the Yankees number 1 pitcher, Chien Ming Wang, missed over half the season and the Yankees still only missed the playoffs by 6 games? Wang was 8-2 in 15 starts. If he just goes 7-7 in the other 18-20 starts he should have had, the Yankees are in the playoffs last year. The previous two seasons, Wang won 19 games each.

And, while CC might not be "that" good as it relates to how much they're paying him, he's still an improvement to the rotation. He's still a solid #1 guy and if you consider him the #2 guy after Wang, probably the best #2 pitcher in the AL.

As far as signing with the Yankees being the kiss of death, that's not completely true. Roger Clemens didn't have a perfect start to his Yankee career, but he still won two World Series rings and a Cy Young with the Yankees. And, Mike Mussina had a very good Yankee career, despite the ups and downs. It's not the easiest place to play, but it's not necessarily going to be the "kiss of death" for CC.


The Yankees are losing Mussina and presumably Petitte. Their aging position players all aged another year. Sabathia alone isn't getting them over the hump.

[JamStone]

depends what the record of the starters that filled in for Wang was... if it was 7-7 it would not have mattered. it would have to be like 2-12 to matter.

That's a good point. A lot of things would have chanced if Wang remained healthy. Darrell Rasner basically picked up Chien Ming Wang's starts, and he went 5-10 in 20 games. The team went 8-12 in his starts. So, in order to make up the difference, Wang would have had to still be pitching great and go something like 11-4 in the 20 starts he missed with the bullpen picking up another 3 of those bullpen losses.

Obviously, it would/could have also had a domino type effect on their bullpen if Wang were able to pitch long innings in his starts to save the bullpen for the next day's games. And, also, if Wang remained healthy, Rasner could have picked up the slack when Ian Kennedy and Phil Hughes were taken out of the rotation. Quite a few things could have and would have changed had Wang remained healthy.

[JamStone]

The Yankees are losing Mussina and presumably Petitte. Their aging position players all aged another year. Sabathia alone isn't getting them over the hump.

Not Sabathia alone, but Sabathia with a healthy Chien Ming Wang and Joba Chamberlain knowing from spring training that he'll be a starting pitcher the entire year is a very good step forward. If they can convince Pettitte to return at their price, they'll be sitting in a very good position even in the tough AL East.

And, not that you're speaking specifically in comparison to Boston, but I'll make this point anyway. Aren't the signs of decline evident in players like David Ortiz and Mike Lowell and Jason Varitek? And, even with some of the youth injected in the Red Sox line-up, that line-up is simply not as daunting as it was when Ortiz and Lowell were still unbelievable at the plate as well as Manny's bat being in the line-up.

[misterx91578]

A.J. Burnett might be joining CC

[Reggie Miller]

Not Sabathia alone, but Sabathia with a healthy Chien Ming Wang and Joba Chamberlain knowing from spring training that he'll be a starting pitcher the entire year is a very good step forward. If they can convince Pettitte to return at their price, they'll be sitting in a very good position even in the tough AL East.

And, not that you're speaking specifically in comparison to Boston, but I'll make this point anyway. Aren't the signs of decline evident in players like David Ortiz and Mike Lowell and Jason Varitek? And, even with some of the youth injected in the Red Sox line-up, that line-up is simply not as daunting as it was when Ortiz and Lowell were still unbelievable at the plate as well as Manny's bat being in the line-up.

I wasn't thinking of Boston so much as Tampa. Your point is still VERY valid, however. IMHO, Vartiek is done. He has been declining behind the plate for three years, and now his hitting has gone in the tank. Also, removing Ramirez has really removed the "pucker factor."

What worries me about Sabathia is his conditioning, He's the kind of guy that may not be able to work/rehab his way back from a major injury. I honestly think the Yankees would be better of with Peavy and Lowe than Sabathia and Burnett, considering the cost-benefit analysis.

[AFBlue]

A.J. Burnett might be joining CC

Yeah, that's just sick.

I'm pulling for Atlanta to come out on top in the Burnett sweepstakes for two reasons...

1. I like the Rays and would like to see them continue to have success against the big-spending Yankees

2. I live near Atlanta and don't want to continue to hear about Braves suckage. They NEED Burnett....Yankees are just being greedy now.

[JamStone]

So yeah.

The better question is: what if the Yankees get both CC and Burnett?

[misterx91578]

So yeah.

The better question is: what if the Yankees get both CC and Burnett?
Free agent A.J. Burnett is apparently headed to the Yankees http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3765754

[King]

AJ Burnett Signing = Carl Pavano Signing

[JamStone]

AJ Burnett is going to get into an accident, hurt himself, and lie to the Yankees about it?

I don't understand why some people just assume shit won't work out. It's not like the Yankees care if they blow money away on players. They can afford it. Burnett might not be the greatest pick-up ever, and he might not be worth the money he's going to get, but at best, he'll be the third guy in the rotation. That's at best. He might be the fourth or fifth starter in the rotation. If he's only what he's been the last four seasons, he'll do fine as the fourth starter. Pavano was a disaster for the Yankees, but primarily because of Pavano lying about his car accident and rib injury. That as much as anything was where all the shit went wrong with Pavano.

Wang, Sabathia, Chamberlain, Burnett, and either Pettitte, Hughes, or someone unexpected is a very fine staff.

[JamStone]

What worries me about Sabathia is his conditioning, He's the kind of guy that may not be able to work/rehab his way back from a major injury. I honestly think the Yankees would be better of with Peavy and Lowe than Sabathia and Burnett, considering the cost-benefit analysis.

Fair enough. Although I've argued this with other people about Sabathia already, but CC has been fat basically his entire major league career. His weight doesn't affect his pitching, and up until now, it hasn't affected his health in terms of being injury prone. That's not to say he can't or won't be injured. But, it is to say that you can't just expect him to get injured because of his weight. It hasn't been proven to be a factor so far in his career.

And, while I agree with the "cost-benefit analysis" part of your argument, it's not like the Yankees are worried about that. They spend what they have to and what they want to to get the players they want. It's almost as if there is no cost-benefit analysis when it comes to their personnel decision making. If a big contract doesn't work out, it doesn't affect them as it relates to throwing more money elsewhere on other players they target. So, I would hesitate to make an argument against the Yankees as it pertains to how bad, big contracts might affect them financially. They technically don't affect them other than actually paying out those contracts out.

[Reggie Miller]

Fair enough. Although I've argued this with other people about Sabathia already, but CC has been fat basically his entire major league career. His weight doesn't affect his pitching, and up until now, it hasn't affected his health in terms of being injury prone. That's not to say he can't or won't be injured. But, it is to say that you can't just expect him to get injured because of his weight. It hasn't been proven to be a factor so far in his career.

And, while I agree with the "cost-benefit analysis" part of your argument, it's not like the Yankees are worried about that. They spend what they have to and what they want to to get the players they want. It's almost as if there is no cost-benefit analysis when it comes to their personnel decision making. If a big contract doesn't work out, it doesn't affect them as it relates to throwing more money elsewhere on other players they target. So, I would hesitate to make an argument against the Yankees as it pertains to how bad, big contracts might affect them financially. They technically don't affect them other than actually paying out those contracts out.


I only question his ability to rebound from major injury for three reasons:

1) As you mention, there is no precedent;
2) Seriously, he is heavy enough that it is an obstacle to recovering from injury; and
3) The Brewers used and abused him like a rented car.

I'm not saying he is injury prone; I'm saying I question his ability to rebound from injury. More specifically, there is a good chance he will miss some significant time next year. There is also a chance he will fulfill his entire contract without missing more than 10 starts. Which has better odds?

You are certainly 100% correct in that the Yankees can afford to do this and the Burnett deal, both from a baseball and purely financial standpoint.

[Reggie Miller]

AJ Burnett is going to get into an accident, hurt himself, and lie to the Yankees about it?

I don't understand why some people just assume shit won't work out. It's not like the Yankees care if they blow money away on players. They can afford it. Burnett might not be the greatest pick-up ever, and he might not be worth the money he's going to get, but at best, he'll be the third guy in the rotation. That's at best. He might be the fourth or fifth starter in the rotation. If he's only what he's been the last four seasons, he'll do fine as the fourth starter. Pavano was a disaster for the Yankees, but primarily because of Pavano lying about his car accident and rib injury. That as much as anything was where all the shit went wrong with Pavano.

Wang, Sabathia, Chamberlain, Burnett, and either Pettitte, Hughes, or someone unexpected is a very fine staff.


Because it aggravates a lot of people that their team has zero chance due to baseball economics. Pittsburgh and Kansas City could have Branch Rickey, Connie Mack, Billy Beane, and Dallas Green in their front offices, and I don't think it would make much difference. For every Tampa and Minneapolis, there are at least an equal number of small market teams that have zero chance at success from year to year.

Am I in favor of wholesale change? Maybe. I'm not sure. Still, I'm pretty sure this is the source of a lot of the scrutiny of the Yankees' moves.

On a purely personal level, I wish Sabathia the best, particularly because Milwaukee abused the hell out of his arm.

[ducks]

I wish sabathia his worse season ever

[King]

AJ Burnett is going to get into an accident, hurt himself, and lie to the Yankees about it?

I don't understand why some people just assume shit won't work out. It's not like the Yankees care if they blow money away on players. They can afford it. Burnett might not be the greatest pick-up ever, and he might not be worth the money he's going to get, but at best, he'll be the third guy in the rotation. That's at best. He might be the fourth or fifth starter in the rotation. If he's only what he's been the last four seasons, he'll do fine as the fourth starter. Pavano was a disaster for the Yankees, but primarily because of Pavano lying about his car accident and rib injury. That as much as anything was where all the shit went wrong with Pavano.

Wang, Sabathia, Chamberlain, Burnett, and either Pettitte, Hughes, or someone unexpected is a very fine staff.

I couldn't care less if it works out for them. I'm not a Yanks fan, nor a hater. I'm saying it'll probably turn out like the Pavano signing, because a bunch of money was thrown at a guy (after a career year) -- and there's a good chance he'll be on the DL a lot, given his history.

The reasons behind the injury are irrelevant - but Pavano missed a lot of time after signing a huge contract. And Burnett has really done nothing in his career to make people believe he won't miss time. Even after signing a big contract.

Similar in that a lot of money is going to be invested in a pitcher who will probably be watching games from the dugout.

[lefty]

Great, the Blue Jays star pitcher is gone :pctoss

[JamStone]

I only question his ability to rebound from major injury for three reasons:

1) As you mention, there is no precedent;
2) Seriously, he is heavy enough that it is an obstacle to recovering from injury; and
3) The Brewers used and abused him like a rented car.

I'm not saying he is injury prone; I'm saying I question his ability to rebound from injury. More specifically, there is a good chance he will miss some significant time next year. There is also a chance he will fulfill his entire contract without missing more than 10 starts. Which has better odds?

A "good chance?" I guess I'd like to know what your definition of a "good chance" is. I don't think there's a "good chance" that CC will miss significant time next year.

Yes, he pitched over 250 innings last year. Did you know CC pitched over 250 innings the year before that in 2007? Didn't affect him injury wise last season. Of course, the counter argument is, "well, that's two years of over 250 innings per season, so he's bound to get injured this year." That could be the case. Again, not saying he can't get injured. But, seriously, I can't say it's a "good chance" of happening. He hasn't pitched less than 28 starts in a season. He's always pitching at least 180-220 innings a season. As fat and out of shape as he is, it hasn't affected his durability, health, and pitching. Sure, he "could" get injured. Any player "could" get injured. CC has proven he's no more susceptible simply because of his weight or his workload.



On a purely personal level, I wish Sabathia the best, particularly because Milwaukee abused the hell out of his arm.

Again, he pitched the same amount innings with the Indians the year before. And, it's not like CC didn't want to work on 3 games rest when they asked it of him. He was a gamer. And, he wanted the ball. Didn't complain. Never hesitated to pitch when called upon.

[bostonguy]

Maybe they will finally break the Boston curse of 2004 and win a damn playoff series with this lineup. Then again that could be pushing it. :lmao:lmao:lmao

[Reggie Miller]

A "good chance?" I guess I'd like to know what your definition of a "good chance" is. I don't think there's a "good chance" that CC will miss significant time next year.

Yes, he pitched over 250 innings last year. Did you know CC pitched over 250 innings the year before that in 2007? Didn't affect him injury wise last season. Of course, the counter argument is, "well, that's two years of over 250 innings per season, so he's bound to get injured this year." That could be the case. Again, not saying he can't get injured. But, seriously, I can't say it's a "good chance" of happening. He hasn't pitched less than 28 starts in a season. He's always pitching at least 180-220 innings a season. As fat and out of shape as he is, it hasn't affected his durability, health, and pitching. Sure, he "could" get injured. Any player "could" get injured. CC has proven he's no more susceptible simply because of his weight or his workload.




Again, he pitched the same amount innings with the Indians the year before. And, it's not like CC didn't want to work on 3 games rest when they asked it of him. He was a gamer. And, he wanted the ball. Didn't complain. Never hesitated to pitch when called upon.


You're saying the glass is half-full; I'm saying it's half-empty.

From a National League perspective, Yost (and later Sveum) used and abused Sabathia. Since he is somewhat competent at the plate and the Milwaukee bullpen was incompetent, Sabathia pitched a lot more innings that most NL managers would have had him pitch. (Hope that made sense.) Most of his complete games were totally unnecessary (blowouts). I was aware of 2007, but my point was this year added another 250 inning season, as well as another year of chronological age.

I understand that innings and/or pitches alone don't kill arms. It's the actual damage done to the muscles and connective tissues. Sabathia has too many factors against him: getting older, previous "good luck," and two intense seasons with a lot of consecutive innings.

You also seem to misunderstand my point about his weight. His weight hasn't made him injury prone: that's a fact. I'm saying that his weight compromises his ability to recover from a major injury (particularly any fracture to his legs). That's also a fact. Assuming all other factors are equal (such as 6"0", same body type, etc.), a 300 lb. man is not as likely to fully recover from a fracture to the legs as a 200 lb. man. As the age of the patient increases, the disparity becomes greater.

I would also cheerfully admit that a fracture of the femur in baseball is better classified as a "freak accident" and not a "pitching injury." In that sense, I was thinking of ACL, hamstring, and shoulder problems.