This issue with Spurs is not the Bigs!!

[MarHill]

I've been reading the posts lately and everybody thinks the big hole or weakness with the Spurs is the big that can block shots, rebound and defend people like Odom, David West..etc!

Actually, I'm looking at last season. Though they had troubles with those issues and defending those players..but I must write the bigger issue was with scoring.

They went through terrible droughts scoring and wound-up getting blown-out in several regular season games. The games at New Orleans, Utah, and the last Lakers regular season game come to mind.

While I agree, we could use another big to fill that hole. But, I have to differ with everybody else and write the bigger issue was scoring outside the Real Big Three and getting some athleticism in the second unit.

So the development of Hill and Mason are so important to me than getting another big (i.e. Ian or many of the numerous trade proposals presented by many on this forum). Because they can get own shot off the dribble (Mason) and get into the lane (Hill).

I felt when Manu when down in the WCF last year...it's exposed the Spurs' main weakness as scoring because outside of Tony Parker there was no one else that could create their own shot of the dribble and help get others better shots because of getting in the lane.

What does the rest of the forum think?

:lobt::lobt::lobt::lobt: :lobt:(It's Time for Number Five!!!!!)

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

So you're saying we need scoring, as in the Mason and Hill scoring we already have?

That doesn't make sense.

[MarHill]

Yes, Mason and Hill are providing scoring. But, I've read from many people in this forum that if we get a big to defend Odom, David West, or Bynum and the Spurs would have solved their main weakness.

Where scoring is the bigger issue than getting another big!

[Anti.Hero]

Hill and Mason will help

but one reason they hit so many scoring droughts is because the Spurs have no big outside of Duncan who can fucking post up.

You learn that shit in big man high school 101 but our bigs are wimps.



Thank goodness Hill can rebound.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Yes, Mason and Hill are providing scoring. But, I've read from many people in this forum that if we get a big to defend Odom, David West, or Bynum and the Spurs would have solved their main weakness.

Where scoring is the bigger issue than getting another big!

The defense leads to offense. A big man who can defend well side by side next to Duncan would be killer.

We're scoring enough as it is, and we don't have a 100% Manu or Parker at all.

[MarHill]

Hill and Mason will help

but one reason they hit so many scoring droughts is because the Spurs have no big outside of Duncan who can fucking post up.

You learn that shit in big man high school 101 but our bigs are wimps.



Thank goodness Hill can rebound.


Anti-Hero,

You are making my point! The Spurs have won titles with Nazr Muhammad and Elson at the center. Not Hall of Fame caliber there!!

The Spurs haven't had a big outside of TD that could post-up since David Robinson. Finding quality bigs like that is rare.

Yes...I would love to have another big (hopefully Ian will pan out)....but the bigger issue is scoring. And having Hill and Mason score like they have so far in the season is more important...because it can address those droughts they've had in the 2nd unit outside of Manu.

I believe this development will go further with Spurs than hoping for the next big to come their way.

[MarHill]

The defense leads to offense. A big man who can defend well side by side next to Duncan would be killer.

We're scoring enough as it is, and we don't have a 100% Manu or Parker at all.


Yes we are scoring now!!!!! I'm glad about that!

That's my point....because that will make the Spurs a more dangerous team later season if they can keep it up.

By scoring with the 2nd unit.....there isn't such drop-off from the 1st unit.

And we didn't have that last year. Only Finley was the guy who score 12-16 pts per game...but he was inconsistent. Now, with Mason, Hill, and Finley you can put pressure on the other team's defense because they have other scorers on the floor outside the Real Big 3.

This development is more important to me than getting another big!!!

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Yes we are scoring now!!!!! I'm glad about that!

That's my point....because that will make the Spurs a more dangerous team later season if they can keep it up.

By scoring with the 2nd unit.....there isn't such drop-off from the 1st unit.

And we didn't have that last year. Only Finley was the guy who score 12-16 pts per game...but he was inconsistent. Now, with Mason, Hill, and Finley you can put pressure on the other team's defense because they have other scorers on the floor outside the Real Big 3.

This development is more important to me than getting another big!!!

The development is happening. The other big hasn't happened yet. How is that not more important?

[ss1986v2]

i think you are talking about going into the season vs right now. going into the year, yes, additional scoring was probably the priority. but it looks like mason and hill are going to provide that.

so right now, thats not our biggest issue. its the front court quality/depth.

[Bender]

yeah, exactly.
MarHill was saying that scoring was a bigger problem than another big, and now apparantly that problem has been solved with Hill, Mason...

However, NOW our problem IS not having another productive big, so even though MarHill's problem (scoring) has been solved, our "big" problem remains.

so I don't see any problem here... :lol

[raspsa]

There can be no doubt that the Spurs are shallowest in the SF and C positions rekative to both Guard positions.. so any improvvement in those areas will be welcome.. my personal wish is tha Santa delivers the long sought after mythical long SF this X'mas.:lol:lol

[m33p0]

well, 2006-07 bench was very strong. Spurs had the best bench in the league. that very same bench went AWOL the following year.






... and you do need to score more than your opponent to win games.

[mystargtr34]

People forget that Nazr was actually a solid big. He was a hell of a rebounder and had size.

Having said that, when the Spurs won with Rasho/Elson/Oberto/Nazz,

Shaq was in the East
Pau Gasol was a non factor in Memphis
Bynum wasnt in the league

[benefactor]

I don't really get your post. You are saying that developing another scorer behind the big three is a priority over getting a big but as Bottomtooth said, that is already happening and will continue to happen whether or not we bring another big in. But since the thread title states that bigs is not an issue with us, here are few fun facts.

Oberto - 3.1rpg
Thomas - 3.8rpg
Bonner - 3.4rpg

We have been outrebounded in 9 of our first 14 games.

We need another big.

[m33p0]

I don't really get your post. You are saying that developing another scorer behind the big three is a priority over getting a big but as Bottomtooth said, that is already happening and will continue to happen whether or not we bring another big in. But since the thread title states that bigs is not an issue with us, here are few fun facts.

Oberto - 3.1rpg
Thomas - 3.8rpg
Bonner - 3.4rpg

We have been outrebounded in 9 of our first 14 games.

We need a rebounding/shotblocking big.
to be more precise.

[benefactor]

to be more precise.
:toast

[MarHill]

Well, I'm sorry if I didn't make my thread clear to everyone. What I was trying to say is....that the biggest issue for the Spurs was scoring not getting another big.

I've read several posts in the forum(including one about Chris Kaman possibly coming to the Spurs) that getting a big is the number one issue over everything else. Well, I disagree.

The bigs beside TD and after David Robinson have been serviceable at best and the team still won championships.

I hope that makes my argument clearer. Sorry for the confusion!!

[mrspurs]

I've been reading the posts lately and everybody thinks the big hole or weakness with the Spurs is the big that can block shots, rebound and defend people like Odom, David West..etc!

Actually, I'm looking at last season. Though they had troubles with those issues and defending those players..but I must write the bigger issue was with scoring.

They went through terrible droughts scoring and wound-up getting blown-out in several regular season games. The games at New Orleans, Utah, and the last Lakers regular season game come to mind.

While I agree, we could use another big to fill that hole. But, I have to differ with everybody else and write the bigger issue was scoring outside the Real Big Three and getting some athleticism in the second unit.

So the development of Hill and Mason are so important to me than getting another big (i.e. Ian or many of the numerous trade proposals presented by many on this forum). Because they can get own shot off the dribble (Mason) and get into the lane (Hill).

I felt when Manu when down in the WCF last year...it's exposed the Spurs' main weakness as scoring because outside of Tony Parker there was no one else that could create their own shot of the dribble and help get others better shots because of getting in the lane.

What does the rest of the forum think?

:lobt::lobt::lobt::lobt: :lobt:(It's Time for Number Five!!!!!)

Thou you took the time to type alot of things that make sense. What your forgetting are the words that come straight from Timmy. We just couldnt make any stops. Have you forgot how easily teams made uncontested layups and ally-oops? Noone in here has. All teams go through periods when the ball just wont go in. The teams that continue to win like the Lakers and the Celtics did it by making stops. And all stops start under the paint. So, once again alot of nice typing. But your dead wrong.

[mrspurs]

People forget that Nazr was actually a solid big. He was a hell of a rebounder and had size.

Having said that, when the Spurs won with Rasho/Elson/Oberto/Nazz,

Shaq was in the East
Pau Gasol was a non factor in Memphis
Bynum wasnt in the league

This is exactly why we will get pounded in the paint. And mystartr34 hit it on the money. We were better with Elson and then they traded him for a shorter, slower, over the hill scrub Kurt. If you think we're gonna win a 7 game series from beyond the arc, while at the sametime not being able to make any stops in the paint. Just because we can outscore some of the worst teams in the NBA right now, doesnt mean the better teams are gonna let us score at will. Teams will let us try and win from beyond the arc. Thats been our Mojo since we cant find another big. And in the end, when the games begin to count. Timmy will be left out to hang by himself with this current roster. We just dont have the talent to compete in a 7 game series yet. But its still early. The FO must find a way to loose the worthless bigs they currently have. The west is filled with giants and we got Timmy and Roger and Hill as our bigs. :wow

[mrspurs]

Well, I'm sorry if I didn't make my thread clear to everyone. What I was trying to say is....that the biggest issue for the Spurs was scoring not getting another big.

I've read several posts in the forum(including one about Chris Kaman possibly coming to the Spurs) that getting a big is the number one issue over everything else. Well, I disagree.

The bigs beside TD and after David Robinson have been serviceable at best and the team still won championships.

I hope that makes my argument clearer. Sorry for the confusion!!

Once again your looking at the past. When we could get away with playing with sorry bigs next to Tim. Timmy showed us all last season just how bad he got outplayed in the POs. (he got owned by tyson,amare,gasol,shaq,west to name a few). He got doubled team everytime he touched the ball. And with Manu being hurt and not being able to penetrate, opponents left our guys open to shoot 3s all day. And with Timmy getting doubled it clogged the paint and kept TP from making those easy layups he's used to making. And your also looking at the teams we're beating right now. Those are NBA teams so a win is a win. But dont let these wins confuse you with the only real win(houston). Pop has done an outstanding job with what he has while guys were and are out. One game at a time. And heres another little something that might make sense. Most of the fans in here have been watching, playing basketball for many years. When the majority of them say we need another big. Guess what?

[MrChug]

What does the rest of the forum think?[/B]

I for one, think you yell too fuckin much. Tone it down. I didn't even read your post after all your "!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!". Get a grip. If your logic is undeniable, you don't need "!!!!!!". :nope

[mrspurs]

Yes we are scoring now!!!!! I'm glad about that!

That's my point....because that will make the Spurs a more dangerous team later season if they can keep it up.

By scoring with the 2nd unit.....there isn't such drop-off from the 1st unit.

And we didn't have that last year. Only Finley was the guy who score 12-16 pts per game...but he was inconsistent. Now, with Mason, Hill, and Finley you can put pressure on the other team's defense because they have other scorers on the floor outside the Real Big 3.

This development is more important to me than getting another big!!!

Maybe your in the FO, because thats how they think. And thats why the lakers sent us home easily. But your not and we will see soon when the spurs make that trade to get Timmy some real help. Unless of course Austin can part ways with Ian.:lmao

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Once again your looking at the past. When we could get away with playing with sorry bigs next to Tim. Timmy showed us all last season just how bad he got outplayed in the POs. (he got owned by tyson,amare,gasol,shaq,west to name a few). He got doubled team everytime he touched the ball. And with Manu being hurt and not being able to penetrate, opponents left our guys open to shoot 3s all day. And with Timmy getting doubled it clogged the paint and kept TP from making those easy layups he's used to making. And your also looking at the teams we're beating right now. Those are NBA teams so a win is a win. But dont let these wins confuse you with the only real win(houston). Pop has done an outstanding job with what he has while guys were and are out. One game at a time. And heres another little something that might make sense. Most of the fans in here have been watching, playing basketball for many years. When the majority of them say we need another big. Guess what?

Every team can use another quality big.The problem is that those bigs are very expensive and we cannot afford to get any of them. I suppose you can't point to a trade scenario for a serviceable big, can you? And those Vaughn+Bonner for Dwight Howard don't work.

We can't have all-stars on every position, that's the salary cap for, and we as Spurs fans should be happy the rules are like that, otherwise all stars would be in NY/LA/Chi and small market teams would get no one of quality.

Oberto and Kurt will do a decent job.

[InK]

This whole issue beeing brought up so often over the last two days has probably got to do less with the need for a big then with the uncertainty how will Parker/Manu/Hill/ Mason produce side by side.

[mbass]

Anti-Hero,

You are making my point! The Spurs have won titles with Nazr Muhammad and Elson at the center. Not Hall of Fame caliber there!!

The Spurs haven't had a big outside of TD that could post-up since David Robinson. Finding quality bigs like that is rare.

Yes...I would love to have another big (hopefully Ian will pan out)....but the bigger issue is scoring. And having Hill and Mason score like they have so far in the season is more important...because it can address those droughts they've had in the 2nd unit outside of Manu.

I believe this development will go further with Spurs than hoping for the next big to come their way.
----------------------
No - we NOW have Hill and Mason who can score. We still need a big next to Duncan.

[dbestpro]

Most of the posts in regards to the Spurs bigs are by knowledgeable fans. We are not looking to compete we are looking to win. We know that our bigs will have trouble with the more athletic inside teams that we will face in the playoffs. We are not looking for an allstar big. We are looking for an athletic big that can compensate for the lack of inside foot speed or quickness. This lack of inside quickness is the reason we suck wind on many defensive rebounds. Could it be Ian? He has a fair chance. If not, we still have this one weakness in our team.

After December 15 there will be trades by teams who have fell off the map and want to shed salary so better players (not looking for an allstar) can be had for lesser players. We have enough depth and some decent contracts that if Ian does not pan out that we will still be in the market for an athletic big.

[MarHill]

I for one, think you yell too fuckin much. Tone it down. I didn't even read your post after all your "!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!". Get a grip. If your logic is undeniable, you don't need "!!!!!!". :nope


First of all, I was not yelling at any one by using exclamation points. I always use them in my sentences.

I could see if i was typing in all UPPERCASE LETTERS. Then I would be yelling.

I was bringing up a different argument and that's fine for the ones who have responded to the thread and disagree with me. No problem!!

Excuse me!! :bang

[mrspurs]

Most of the posts in regards to the Spurs bigs are by knowledgeable fans. We are not looking to compete we are looking to win. We know that our bigs will have trouble with the more athletic inside teams that we will face in the playoffs. We are not looking for an allstar big. We are looking for an athletic big that can compensate for the lack of inside foot speed or quickness. This lack of inside quickness is the reason we suck wind on many defensive rebounds. Could it be Ian? He has a fair chance. If not, we still have this one weakness in our team.

After December 15 there will be trades by teams who have fell off the map and want to shed salary so better players (not looking for an allstar) can be had for lesser players. We have enough depth and some decent contracts that if Ian does not pan out that we will still be in the market for an athletic big.

Agreed, we dont need a big to build our future with. Just someone like Ian. I wonder if Ian knows he's the man holding the spurs future this season?

[MarHill]

Thou you took the time to type alot of things that make sense. What your forgetting are the words that come straight from Timmy. We just couldnt make any stops. Have you forgot how easily teams made uncontested layups and ally-oops? Noone in here has. All teams go through periods when the ball just wont go in. The teams that continue to win like the Lakers and the Celtics did it by making stops. And all stops start under the paint. So, once again alot of nice typing. But your dead wrong.


Okay, you make a good point about what Timmy said from his own mouth. But the defense has been top ten since 2003....so while other teams were making uncontested layups and ally-oops.....last year's bigger problem was scoring.

Perfect example...game 1 of the WCF. The Spurs had a 20 point lead in the second half and they end up losing the game (and I believe that was the game to decide that series.) Also, I believe they had a sizeable lead in game 5 of that series as well.

The Spurs held the Lakers to 89 points in the game and I believe averaged about 93 points in that series. So the defense was there even though....they were some breakdowns. If there was more scoring from the bench outside the Real Big 3 then it could have been a different series.

That's why the development of Hill and Mason are more important to me than getting another big.....because their added scoring will be able to keep a lead or increase it when they are on the floor with other teams 2nd units.

:flag:

[mrspurs]

Notice how well this thread went. Everyone basically making comments without anyone having to copy and paste mickey mouse stats. (to defend their feelings). Cussing and making childish comments. And looks whos missing in this thread. Yeah you know who yall are. That should spell it out to ya. Be nice to have more interesting threads then those power posters who cant control their keyboards. Im always looking forward to threads like these. Chumps threads are helpful as well. Its nice to know where our center is playing and how hes playing.

[lotr1trekkie]

Mahimni WAS supposed to be that other BIG. Wait until he returns and let's see. Obviously Tim is the only BIG who can protect the rim. Horry could. If Mahimni can do only that he is a great asset come playoff time.

[MarHill]

This is exactly why we will get pounded in the paint. And mystartr34 hit it on the money. We were better with Elson and then they traded him for a shorter, slower, over the hill scrub Kurt. If you think we're gonna win a 7 game series from beyond the arc, while at the sametime not being able to make any stops in the paint. Just because we can outscore some of the worst teams in the NBA right now, doesnt mean the better teams are gonna let us score at will. Teams will let us try and win from beyond the arc. Thats been our Mojo since we cant find another big. And in the end, when the games begin to count. Timmy will be left out to hang by himself with this current roster. We just dont have the talent to compete in a 7 game series yet. But its still early. The FO must find a way to loose the worthless bigs they currently have. The west is filled with giants and we got Timmy and Roger and Hill as our bigs. :wow

Again, when Manu(except TP) when down we didn't have anyone that could create their own shot off the dribble and get better shots for others. That was the problem.

Now, with the development of Hill and Mason...who create their own shot off the dribble and get into the lane that adds another weapon or weapons when they are on the floor with Manu and Tony and for the second unit.

I disagree with you to say we don't have the talent to compete in a 7 game series with the Lakers and Celtics. The playoffs are about matchups and when you can't score in big stretches of playoff games that will you hurt more than just finding another serviceable big.

And the more firepower you have....better the team will be!!!

[Brazil]

I don't really get your post. You are saying that developing another scorer behind the big three is a priority over getting a big but as Bottomtooth said, that is already happening and will continue to happen whether or not we bring another big in. But since the thread title states that bigs is not an issue with us, here are few fun facts.

Oberto - 3.1rpg
Thomas - 3.8rpg
Bonner - 3.4rpg

We have been outrebounded in 9 of our first 14 games.

We need another big.

Thinking well with what we have, being outrebounded in 9 of our first 14 games is not so bad.

Anyway I think that we are going to have a good surprise of KT, he has made a good rebounding game against Menphis, the Diesel is beginning to warm.

[anakha]

Chumps threads are helpful as well. Its nice to know where our center is playing and how hes playing.


I dont need that chump(why he's on my ignore list) to tell me Ian wasnt ready.

:lmao

[Brazil]

Thinking well with what we have, being outrebounded in 9 of our first 14 games is not so bad.

Anyway I think that we are going to have a good surprise of KT, he has made a good rebounding game against Menphis, the Diesel is beginning to warm.

well Chicago of course but I take that as a good signal for the game against Menphis. :lol

[MarHill]

Notice how well this thread went. Everyone basically making comments without anyone having to copy and paste mickey mouse stats. (to defend their feelings). Cussing and making childish comments. And looks whos missing in this thread. Yeah you know who yall are. That should spell it out to ya. Be nice to have more interesting threads then those power posters who cant control their keyboards. Im always looking forward to threads like these. Chumps threads are helpful as well. Its nice to know where our center is playing and how hes playing.


Thanks Mr. Spurs!!!!!

I don't mind having a discussion (even if others think I'm wrong). I believe this is what a forum is all about.

Also, I don't have to cuss or call other people names if I think their wrong. That's childish and immature!! (oh by the way..I'm not yelling at you for using exclamation points at the end of my sentences! Sheesh!!!!)

Life is too short for that kind of stuff.

I'm all for a good discussion and a spirited debate especially about everyone's favorite NBA team here in South Texas!!

:flag:

[benefactor]

Notice how well this thread went. Everyone basically making comments without anyone having to copy and paste mickey mouse stats. (to defend their feelings). Cussing and making childish comments. And looks whos missing in this thread. Yeah you know who yall are. That should spell it out to ya. Be nice to have more interesting threads then those power posters who cant control their keyboards. Im always looking forward to threads like these. Chumps threads are helpful as well. Its nice to know where our center is playing and how hes playing.
I have noticed that you still have no idea where the "Enter" key is or how to properly construct sentences. Coupling those things with you just being plain annoying makes you almost unbearable.

To make it simple...you have no place calling out any posters here for any reason, for the plank is large in your own eye.

[Bruno]

I do agree with the thread starter. Scoring was a way bigger need for Spurs than another big.

If things don't change, Spurs will have 4 perimeter scorer (Ginobili, Parker, Mason and Hill), 2 good shooters (Finley and Bonner) and 1 post presence (Duncan). It's enough and Spurs don't really need scoring from the other players.

I'm far from sure that Spurs needs another shot blocker. To me, linking shot blocking with being a good interior defender is almost as stupid as linking steal with being a good perimeter defender.
Most shot blockers are good at that because they leave their man to defend the rim. Given that the big next to Duncan will defend on the best opposite big, I rather see him sticking with him than trying to block everything. Letting players like Gasol or Garnett wide open isn't a that good idea.

When you look at the rebounding, you had to split the defensive and the offensive side.
Spurs were last year the best defensive rebounding team of the NBA history (at least the recent one). Despite Duncan having his worst rebounding season and Spurs bigs not rebounding well, Spurs are the second best defensive rebounding team in the league this year.
On the other hand, Spurs are the worst offensive rebounding team in the league. While if Thomas and Oberto did a better job at rebounding the ball, Spurs would be better at that you had to understand that Spurs have chosen to be a bad offensive rebounding team. Perimeter players are focused on transition defense and a player like Bonner, who stays on the perimeter to stretch the defense, can't be a good offensive rebounder.

Oberto and Thomas have been quite bad this year, but if they are back at last year level, Spurs will be fine except against mobile bigs. If Mahinmi can play OK defense against mobile bigs (He doesn't need to be an all star), Spurs bigs will be fine and a trade won't be needed. The situation isn't as bad as people think.

[Galileo]

I agree with the substance of this post.

Mahimni has the athleticism of an elite big, plus he is being trained by the best; Tim Duncan and CIA Pop.

When we get Ian Mahimni in there, we will have six great scoring options (TD, TP, Manu, Hill, Mason, Ian), and two elite big men. I see the next three NBA titles coming our way.

We will kick the crap out of New York, Lebron, and Bosh in the 2011 finals!

[mrspurs]

I do agree with the thread starter. Scoring was a way bigger need for Spurs than another big.

If things don't change, Spurs will have 4 perimeter scorer (Ginobili, Parker, Mason and Hill), 2 good shooters (Finley and Bonner) and 1 post presence (Duncan). It's enough and Spurs don't really need scoring from the other players.

I'm far from sure that Spurs needs another shot blocker. To me, linking shot blocking with being a good interior defender is almost as stupid as linking steal with being a good perimeter defender.
Most shot blockers are good at that because they leave their man to defend the rim. Given that the big next to Duncan will defend on the best opposite big, I rather see him sticking with him than trying to block everything. Letting players like Gasol or Garnett wide open isn't a that good idea.

When you look at the rebounding, you had to split the defensive and the offensive side.
Spurs were last year the best defensive rebounding team of the NBA history (at least the recent one). Despite Duncan having his worst rebounding season and Spurs bigs not rebounding well, Spurs are the second best defensive rebounding team in the league this year.
On the other hand, Spurs are the worst offensive rebounding team in the league. While if Thomas and Oberto did a better job at rebounding the ball, Spurs would be better at that you had to understand that Spurs have chosen to be a bad offensive rebounding team. Perimeter players are focused on transition defense and a player like Bonner, who stays on the perimeter to stretch the defense, can't be a good offensive rebounder.

Oberto and Thomas have been quite bad this year, but if they are back at last year level, Spurs will be fine except against mobile bigs. If Mahinmi can play OK defense against mobile bigs (He doesn't need to be an all star), Spurs bigs will be fine and a trade won't be needed. The situation isn't as bad as people think.

My guess is that Pop has been so into getting Hill and Roger blending into the system that Pop hasnt begun to make a role for a center yet. I dont like Fab or Kurt (as basketball players), but they both were playing better last season then this one. But look at their minutes and you can see how inconsistent the minutes are. Im guessing when Ian gets back, then Pop will be able to make some kind of role for our center position. Cos I just dont see a center out there playing. We're playing with 2 PFs and one is normally behind the arc. It will be nice when that change comes to play. It would be a waste of talent to not try and find someone who can play next to Tim. Not away from Tim. And Im not gonna say its still early anymore. Next year is around the corner.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

We've got Hill and Mason, and are in the process of adding Manu and Tony back.

Scoring isn't the problem, it's the lack of production at the 3 and especially the 5 spot.

Our rebounding and interior defense are our biggest issues and will continue to be until our bigs either step up or we make a trade. Oh, and we don't know jack about what Ian's going to be capable of, lol at people already counting on him to contribute anything other than a couple of fouls a game at this point.

[Spurminator]

No matter how many scorers we have, we're going to have scoring droughts in the Playoffs. During these droughts, it will be important to make it difficult for the other team to score, and it's hard to do that when you're giving up a lot of offensive rebounds.

I don't think there's a right or wrong answer to which is more important. We needed another scorer to reduce the frequency of our scoring droughts and we needed someone who can help Duncan on the glass and in the paint. Right now it looks like we've improved in one of those areas.

[MrChug]

First of all, I was not yelling at any one by using exclamation points. I always use them in my sentences.

I could see if i was typing in all UPPERCASE LETTERS. Then I would be yelling.

I was bringing up a different argument and that's fine for the ones who have responded to the thread and disagree with me. No problem!!

Excuse me!! :bang

This place doesn't allow you to use all caps so try again.

...anyways, you probably make some sense (maybe not) but I'm not sticking around to figure it out.

[romad_20]

Scoring was the problem last year. Our defense was fine against the Lakers but as soon as they got rolling and we couldn't keep up, the energy was gone. A lot of that had to do with Manu being hurt. If Tony and Manu are both healthy that's not as big of a problem. The addition of Hill and Mason's scoring will help us avoid those 5-7 min droughts.

As far as rebounding and defending, we absolutely need help, but Hill is quite capable as a rebounding guard and Manu isn't half bad either when he's healthy. The bigger concern is someone who can defend Pau and other bigs that have quickness going to the basket. If Ian can do that, then I think this roster is pretty good and has just as good chance as any other in the west.

Bottom line, we still have 2-3 months before we see what this team will really be.

[galvatron3000]

I've been reading the posts lately and everybody thinks the big hole or weakness with the Spurs is the big that can block shots, rebound and defend people like Odom, David West..etc!

Actually, I'm looking at last season. Though they had troubles with those issues and defending those players..but I must write the bigger issue was with scoring.

They went through terrible droughts scoring and wound-up getting blown-out in several regular season games. The games at New Orleans, Utah, and the last Lakers regular season game come to mind.

While I agree, we could use another big to fill that hole. But, I have to differ with everybody else and write the bigger issue was scoring outside the Real Big Three and getting some athleticism in the second unit.

So the development of Hill and Mason are so important to me than getting another big (i.e. Ian or many of the numerous trade proposals presented by many on this forum). Because they can get own shot off the dribble (Mason) and get into the lane (Hill).

I felt when Manu when down in the WCF last year...it's exposed the Spurs' main weakness as scoring because outside of Tony Parker there was no one else that could create their own shot of the dribble and help get others better shots because of getting in the lane.

What does the rest of the forum think?

:lobt::lobt::lobt::lobt: :lobt:(It's Time for Number Five!!!!!)




Here's the thing that you fail to mention in disregarding rebounds, if a team is killing the glass as the Lakers did against the Spurs in the playoffs then you can score all day long but the Lakers got so many more opportunities (without Bynum) because of missed rebounds, freakish rebounds and just plain hustle rebounds on the part of the Lakers that it was over. The Spurs' defense without rebounding is null and void. Anyone who plays defense and has a calling card of defense and doesn't get their rebound is not who they say they are. Defense ends with rebounds or a possession. Not before but after. Of course the Spurs needed scoring but that problem became more glaring when Ginobili was injured and no one could help on the glass. Rebounding is the missing ingredient that has to be addressed right now, scoring should be okay with the new additions, hopefully but rebounding puts the team in more of a hole because you expend some much energy on the d side of the ball and to not come up with a rebound over and over again after forcing misses and bad shots is a morality drain. Tweak the offense to get more movement so when guys who created (Manu/Parker) are hurt you can still get easy baskets for everyone but not rebounding is a player talent issue.

[xtremesteven33]

In the words of Pat Riley:

"No rebounds, No championships"

[Bruno]

Here's the thing that you failed to mention in disregarding rebounds, if a team is killing the glass as the Lakers did against the Spurs in the playoffs then you can score all day long the Lakers got so many more opportunities (without Bynum) because of missed rebounds, freakish rebounds and just plain hustle rebounds on the part of the Lakers that it was over. The Spurs' defense without rebounding is null and void. Anyone who plays defense and has a calling card of defense and doesn't get their rebound is not who they say they are. Defense ends with rebounds or a possession. Not before but after.

Spurs did a great job at limiting Lakers offensive rebounds. They did a better job than Utah, Denver or boston.

The idea that Spurs suck at limiting opponents offensive rebounds is plain wrong. I don't know why so much people think it.

[galvatron3000]

Spurs did a great job at limiting Lakers offensive rebounds. They did a better job than Utah, Denver or boston.

The idea that Spurs suck at limiting opponents offensive rebounds is plain wrong. I don't know why so much people think it.

because I watched them murder them when it counted, I don't know the numbers but when they played the seem to get timely rebounds over and over again. sometimes numbers lie so I can't account for the stats but watching Gasol and those guys continue to own the glass was something I complained about throughout that series

[Bruno]

because I watched them murder them when it counted, I don't know the numbers but when they played the seem to get timely rebounds over and over again. sometimes numbers lie so I can't account for the stats but watching Gasol and those guys continue to own the glass was something I complained about throughout that series

Numbers > your feeling.

[galvatron3000]

I just looked at the numbers from the Lakers series and the Lakers murdered us on the glass, especially the offensive glass, I wasn't talking about my feeling I was talking about what I saw as I qualified, I didn't know the numbers but I was surely aware of what I saw. For the record the Spurs have been getting beat on the glass all season which is a very real issue that will haunt them in the playoffs

[galvatron3000]

the problem last season was two fold, scoring and rebounds. The Spurs tried to address scoring with the signing of Mason and I (feel) believe they thought Ian would help on the glass this year

[romad_20]

the problem last season was two fold, scoring and rebounds. The Spurs tried to address scoring with the signing of Mason and I (feel) believe they thought Ian would help on the glass this year


I can agree with this, but I do think Hill and Mason bring us more rebounding from the guard position than we had last year, and much more hustle from the second unit that will help with those rebounding numbers.

[tav1]

We've got Hill and Mason, and are in the process of adding Manu and Tony back.

Scoring isn't the problem, it's the lack of production at the 3 and especially the 5 spot.

Our rebounding and interior defense are our biggest issues and will continue to be until our bigs either step up or we make a trade. Oh, and we don't know jack about what Ian's going to be capable of, lol at people already counting on him to contribute anything other than a couple of fouls a game at this point.

Leaving all profundity aside, I agree with the cliched notion that the Spurs need to *add* another decent big and a wing. If they were to add a wing with an offensive game (capable of scoring 6-10 points every night) they'd be one of the best offensive teams in the league.

I respect Bruno's as much or more than anyone on this forum, but I have to disagree with him about the shot blocker. IMO, the defense would be greatly improved with a natural shot blocker.

This is all a bit greedy, though. From where I sit the Spurs look like they're one of the best 5 team in the league right now. Health is needed, but if Mahinmi can give them 6 and 6, they'll probably be looking up at only the Celtics and Lakers.

[galvatron3000]

The thing with me is upon watching the team last season in the playoffs they looked old to me when it came to the glass. Now when I say old I'm not talking as most the media and expert have been the past 5 years or so but it just seemed (to me) that the Spurs weren't quick to the ball coming off the rim. That's te only area we seemed to be slow in. That's just my assessment (feelings or beliefs) based on what I saw. I've never seen a young team a la Portland, etc win a title. I never bought the argument abot us being old but at some point you need youth to carry the 2nd unit if for nothing more than that regular season and spot minutes throughout the playoffs. The Spurs have a good group at the moment but rebounds should be addressed and Pop knows that.

[m33p0]

just need a rebounding/shotblocking big. Spurs have enough scorers to win games. the backcourt is certainly capable of winning ballgames on their own already.

[GSH]

1. When either Oberto/Thomas are on the floor at the same time as Bowen, the Spurs are playing 3-on-5 ball on the offensive end. That's a hell of a hill to climb.
2.Neither of those guys boxes out worth a damn, and both play like they are wearing ankle weights - which means we give up way too many second chance points. That's also a big hill to climb every night.
3.Neither Oberto nor Thomas get to the free throw line, unless the other team trips and falls on top of them. That leaves teams free to collapse on Duncan, and use all their fouls beating him to death.

We need a big that is young enough to crash the boards aggressively, and to do at least one other thing well - defend/block, take the ball to the hole strong, or hit an occasional mid-range jumper. The problem is that we aren't going to land another superstar big, and most of the realistic possibilities aren't any better than Oberto or Thomas.

I still think Camby would be enough to make this team a serious contender this year, but there just is no realistic way of making that happen. I wish there were some way we could talk Sacramento out of Spencer Hawes. (I wonder if they would take Finley straight-up?) Seriously - I don't know what we could offer, but I think he's about the best bargain-big out there. I'm sure the Kings think so too.

[MarHill]

These last two games are proving my point. The Spurs scored 84 points in Houston and 77 points tonight. In both games they outrebounded their opponents. 39-34 in the Houston game (8 offensive rebounds to 3) and 41-37 in tonight's game (9 offensive rebounds to 6).

The issue is still scoring and when they don't hit their three pointers....it becomes a bigger problem.

I'm not worried about getting another big....I want more scoring!!!!

[thOOdee]

Those two problems are ONE IN THE SAME! WE NEED A BIG WHO CAN SCORE! Having a badass big not only helps on the defensive end, but it allows for more OPEN SHOTS, EASY PENETRATION, AND ADDED ASSISTS FOR THE GUARDS WE ALREADY HAVE!.. I have been promoting a big from the get go. and i know i know, WE DONT HAVE THE MONEY OR SPACE..YADA YADA. But our front office has had awhile to get another big to pair up with duncan since d-rob. Its hard to believe teams like boston. lakers, rockets can have big THREES along with BIGS THAT ACTUALLY PRODUCE. I will be very disapointed if shit don't get done before the end of the year, IF NOT WE BETTER GET AN ALL-STAR COMING 2010(BOSH! and ill be happy with boozer too i guess)

[Anti.Hero]

Keep relying on jump shots because no bigs can fucking post up.

A 6'10" who can create his own offense 4 feet from the basket. What a novel idea.

[SenorSpur]

The thing with me is upon watching the team last season in the playoffs they looked old to me when it came to the glass. Now when I say old I'm not talking as most the media and expert have been the past 5 years or so but it just seemed (to me) that the Spurs weren't quick to the ball coming off the rim. That's te only area we seemed to be slow in. That's just my assessment (feelings or beliefs) based on what I saw. I've never seen a young team a la Portland, etc win a title. I never bought the argument abot us being old but at some point you need youth to carry the 2nd unit if for nothing more than that regular season and spot minutes throughout the playoffs. The Spurs have a good group at the moment but rebounds should be addressed and Pop knows that.

Agree. This was clearly borne out during the series with the Hornets and Fakers. Whether it be loose balls, rebounds, or defensive rotations, the Spurs were routinely outquicked and outhustled by these opponents. IT definitely caught up with them against the Fakers. Over the offseason, the Spurs added a couple of young players, but they're never going to develop on the fly, unless they get consistent court time.

Detroit provided a shining example of how to rebuild on the fly. Their bench has been developing for over a year now. Providing significant practice and playing time, as a unit. Now guys like Stuckey, Johnson,, Maxiell and Afflalo are all significant contributors on a nightly basis. They provide that extra jolt needed to disrupt opponents and change game tempo. It's beautiful to watch.

To your point, it'd be nice if the Spurs bench crew could develop to a point where they can provide the same jolt. I know Hill and Manu can, but there isn't a lot of extra "jolt" among the remaining bench players on the roster.

[benefactor]

These last two games are proving my point. The Spurs scored 84 points in Houston and 77 points tonight. In both games they outrebounded their opponents. 39-34 in the Houston game (8 offensive rebounds to 3) and 41-37 in tonight's game (9 offensive rebounds to 6).

The issue is still scoring and when they don't hit their three pointers....it becomes a bigger problem.

I'm not worried about getting another big....I want more scoring!!!!
Your stats don't tell the whole tale. Did you see what happened when Duncan went to the bench last night? Detroit went on a huge scoring run...mostly at the rim. Outrebounding another team matters little when you cannot protect the paint...unless you are expecting Duncan to play 40+ minutes every single night. You can talk about the last two games all you want. The fact of the matter is that for the SEASON we are still second to last in blocks per game and offensive rebounds per game. Defense was more the issue than scoring.

But to hell with it. Lets just bring in a bunch of shooters and call ourselves the Sacramento Suns.

[mountainballer]

we just need better bigs. end of story.
if they are improving the frontcourt offense, great. if they improve defense, great as well. whatever area they improve doesn't matter, because there is room for improvement in all aspects of the game. currently there are IMO 2 free spots in our big rotation between Tim and whoever is the #4 (Matt, Fab, KT). neither of our current bigs is good enough to fill the role of the #2 or #3.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Offensively, they have no issue. They are not built to be a team that averages 110 PPG, the current roster provides them with the offense capable of doing its job on this team the way it's built. Their issue is defense, plain and simple. In 2005 and 2007, they didn't have a David West or Llamar Odom they had to guard, they had Amare Stoudemire but letting Amare score his points and stopping the Richardsons, Bells, Barbosas and Marions was more important because the Suns are uncomfortable when not firing on all cylinders offensively.

Before that they had Malik Rose who guarded guys like Odom and West extremely well. This is a problem they almost addressed last year via Josh Smith but that fell apart, and they'll probably go after a guy like Smith again. Don't mean to rub it in, but Scola provides that defense they are lacking. Oberto does look pretty useless these days. I'm wondering what they'll do at this point after seeing the way Sheed beat them by stepping out and making one of their unathletic big men follow him and play out of position I think Pop might start wondering if their big men aren't athletic enough to play defense against guys like West and Odom.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

we just need better bigs. end of story.
if they are improving the frontcourt offense, great. if they improve defense, great as well. whatever area they improve doesn't matter, because there is room for improvement in all aspects of the game. currently there are IMO 2 free spots in our big rotation between Tim and whoever is the #4 (Matt, Fab, KT). neither of our current bigs is good enough to fill the role of the #2 or #3.

You're probably right the one weakness to Duncan's game is lack of athleticism, David Robinson covered that up to say the least and they really didn't need great athleticism out of their big men against Denver Phoenix Utah or Cleveland in 2007.

[sam1617]

We need another big, we have no one with any athleticism at the PF or C position. Timmy is stupendous, and Fab, KT, and Bonner fill their roles, but we still don't have any big that can come from the weak side and block shots, or dominate the boards. Ian may fill that roll, if he does, great, but if he doesn't we are still going to struggle against the Gasol's, Odom's, and Wests of the league. Besides, if we can get an athletic big who gets offensive boards, then we will not be as terribly effected during our scoring droughts, since, hopefully, those 2nd chances would score.

[DROB4EVER]

These last two games are proving my point. The Spurs scored 84 points in Houston and 77 points tonight. In both games they outrebounded their opponents. 39-34 in the Houston game (8 offensive rebounds to 3) and 41-37 in tonight's game (9 offensive rebounds to 6).

The issue is still scoring and when they don't hit their three pointers....it becomes a bigger problem.

I'm not worried about getting another big....I want more scoring!!!!

Look at the opp FG% that is the issue, and our lack of offensive rebounds is alarming. Good teams are shooting 52-55% against us, in years we won the champion ship temas shot low 40s.

Have all the scoring you want, ask the lakers you play no defense and you dont win. If scoring was what won Championships we wouldnt have any and La and Pnx Denver would be powerhouses!

[mountainballer]

remember, summer 2006 the Spurs offered Przybilla the whole MLE, before they went after a million other big FAs and finally ended with Butler and Elson.
this days Przybilla would look good in our rotation. just saying.

[tlongII]

remember, summer 2006 the Spurs offered Przybilla the whole MLE, before they went after a million other big FAs and finally ended with Butler and Elson.
this days Przybilla would look good in our rotation. just saying.

Man, I'm soooo glad Przybilla turned that down!

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Przybilla = joke of an NBA player. His post defense is almost as overrated as Bell's perimeter defense, which says a lot since Bell being voted on the first all defensive team last year still baffles me to this day.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Look at the opp FG% that is the issue, and our lack of offensive rebounds is alarming. Good teams are shooting 52-55% against us, in years we won the champion ship temas shot low 40s.

Have all the scoring you want, ask the lakers you play no defense and you dont win. If scoring was what won Championships we wouldnt have any and La and Pnx Denver would be powerhouses!

Hey we are (or were I guess) powerhouses in the regular season :bang


And opposing FG% is the problem, opposing FG% and defensive rebounding % are the two things the Spurs live and die by.

[manufor3]

scoring is not important. if we scored 60 points a game and won everyone id be happy. what we need is a big