Hmmm...will Jeep survive the bailout?

[CosmicCowboy]

Reading the latest details, I started thinking that Jeep will probably not survive this round of consolidations/cutbacks...Chrysler will HAVE to merge with someone else and all the "bailout" money will hinge on fuel economy, alternative fuels, etc...Jeeps are "red state" vehicles and simply aren't politically correct in the current climate...Naturally GM will have to dump the Hummer brand...they are a symbol that liberals love to hate...It's gonna be very interesting to see what happens when Congress starts telling the big 3 what they have to build...

[BacktoBasics]

Jeep Wrangler has one of the highest resale values ever in the history of automobiles. I'd suspect they'd trim the line vs. selling it or deleting it.

[CosmicCowboy]

Lets see...what else? Corvettes? dead. Mustangs? gone. Performance cars? Toast.

Welcome to your new 2011 chevryslerford

http://www.evworld.com/guide_images/guide_buddy.jpg

[CosmicCowboy]

Jeep Wrangler has one of the highest resale values ever in the history of automobiles. I'd suspect they'd trim the line vs. selling it or deleting it.

Oh, no argument that it's a good product and very desirable in the eyes of the ordinary consumer, but the mandated CAFE standards that will be part of the deal will kill them.

[JoeChalupa]

The new Camaro should do very well and it isn't just liberals who hate the Hummer. I know many conservatives who would never buy one.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

http://www.hydrogencarsnow.com/images/Hummer/gm-h2h-hummer.jpg

[CosmicCowboy]

The new Camaro should do very well and it isn't just liberals who hate the Hummer. I know many conservatives who would never buy one.

Oh trust me, I would never buy a H2 or H3 Hummer. (although I have always lusted for an H1 LOL) At the same time, I don't HATE people that drive Hummers, I just think they made a bad choice in vehicles simply from a quality/practicality standpoint. I know some liberals though that literally HATE hummer drivers without ever even meeting them just BECAUSE they drive a Hummer.

[CuckingFunt]

Oh trust me, I would never buy a H2 or H3 Hummer. (although I have always lusted for an H1 LOL)

As a tree huggin' California liberal... ditto. :oops


At the same time, I don't HATE people that drive Hummers, I just think they made a bad choice in vehicles simply from a quality/practicality standpoint. I know some liberals though that literally HATE hummer drivers without ever even meeting them just BECAUSE they drive a Hummer.

I don't think anyone has claimed that liberalism negates judgmental ignorance.

[CavsSuperFan]

I can’t stand the H-2 because I don’t like RAP…(Or spinners)..

I also can’t stand the H-1 because they are just plain ridiculous for city driving…They are noisy and wider than a Suburban…

The Jeep Rubicon is a nice 4x4…I hope the Wrangler survives…

[HoratioCain]

http://www.listal.com/image/252826/600full-csi:-miami-screenshot.jpg

[Anti.Hero]

H2 is overhyped to the Nth degree by goofs who want others to think they are loaded.

H3 is underpowered but can be modded to be alright.


H1 Alpha and the older real Hummers (can be picked up used for ~25k) are the only ones worth saving up for.

I'd love to get a hold of a 4 door jeep one day. They get shit mileage, Jeep needs to at least have a V8/diesel option.

[BacktoBasics]

I'd love to get a hold of a 4 door jeep one day. They get shit mileage, Jeep needs to at least have a V8/diesel option.
I couldn't agree more. One of the oldest mods in the book is a 5.0 Ford 302 in an old CJ.

[CosmicCowboy]

I couldn't agree more. One of the oldest mods in the book is a 5.0 Ford 302 in an old CJ.

I had a 50's era Willy's with a Chevy 327 for years. It was a friggin hoot...It would smoke all 4 tires through 1st and 2nd and scratch 3rd when I romped on it...Just had to be careful not to twist the axles off...

Sold it when my son got his drivers license and started "looking" at my toy...he would have definitely killed himself in it...

[MannyIsGod]

CC, is the Hummer line making money for GM?

[CosmicCowboy]

CC, is the Hummer line making money for GM?

I know it WAS before gas prices spiked and then the credit crunch, but they have been shopping it to sell for almost a year with no takers...

NO auto maker is profitable right now.

[MannyIsGod]

So eliminating it has nothing to do with anything but being smart with money, correct? I mean, gas is low right now but I don't know anyone who expects it to stay there in the long term. I don't give a shit about anyone's ideology, but I don't want to see GM producing vehicles with negative profits. Thats just fucking ridiculous.

[Richard Cranium]

Is anyone in the market for a brand new vehicle right now?

[Anti.Hero]

Plenty of people are considering there are great deals out there.

Why buy a used truck for 15k when you can get a decently loaded one for 19k.

Well, not plenty...but not everyone has a fucked up financial situation. Some are in paradise right now with the shitty economy.

[CosmicCowboy]

So eliminating it has nothing to do with anything but being smart with money, correct? I mean, gas is low right now but I don't know anyone who expects it to stay there in the long term. I don't give a shit about anyone's ideology, but I don't want to see GM producing vehicles with negative profits. Thats just fucking ridiculous.

It's not that there aren't people out there that WANT the product, It's the relatively easy financing that is gone. Maybe for good. They were shopping the Hummer unit because it DID have value and GM needed the cash. GMAC, which in the "good times" supplied a lot of income to GM is in the toilet along with all the other high flying financial firms.

[Richard Cranium]

Plenty of people are considering there are great deals out there.

Why buy a used truck for 15k when you can get a decently loaded one for 19k.

Well, not plenty...but not everyone has a fucked up financial situation. Some are in paradise right now with the shitty economy.

I'm not hurting and I'm loving these gas prices but the last 2 vehicles I've purchased have been used.

[MannyIsGod]

If it had great value it would have been sold but they've been shopping it for some time. And just because there are potential consumers for a product doesn't mean its a good investment. The most telling fact to me is that they've been shopping the brand for quite some time and no one bought it.

Its not like they can't go back to this supposed gold mine if things change but right now I see no reason for tax payers to finance this boondoggle of a brand to keep a few people happy.

[BacktoBasics]

The lack of profit has more to do with buying dealerships being bogged down with over inventory in the form of interest. Most dealerships don't pay cash for their inventory they pay interest to floor their models. When a unit sits the interest adds up and it becomes counterproductive. Since there is a massive log jam due the banks not lending the cost of production is out weighing the ability to get units floored.

Then introduce banks like GE finance who handle a very large portion of dealers flooring abilities. GE has suspended all flooring with the exception of a small few. So if you do run a lean and productive dealership you're having a helluva time getting inventory floored since the banks aren't floating the monies. Damned if you damned if you don't.

Hummer was hit harder than any of the trucks or large SUVs during the gas spike. It never did anywhere near what run of the mill trucks and SUVs did so it became expendable.

[CosmicCowboy]

LOL

Manny, who buys car brands?...Other car makers...they are ALL struggling. Thus, no takers at the price GM wanted for it...

You realize Toyota sales are down just as much as Fords and GM's right?

And you don't approve of a bailout if it includes brands you don't approve of, but support it if you like the brand? LOL...how very inconsistent...

My opinion is a little more clear cut. Fuck bailing them out. Let them go chapter 11 and let a bankruptcy judge sort them out...if they aren't viable, break em up and sell the parts off. If they can downsize and remain viable then do it. either way it's not our responsibility to "save" them.

[Bigzax]

hell with Jeep...who are you daisy duke?

[JoeChalupa]

LOL

Manny, who buys car brands?...Other car makers...they are ALL struggling. Thus, no takers at the price GM wanted for it...

You realize Toyota sales are down just as much as Fords and GM's right?

And you don't approve of a bailout if it includes brands you don't approve of, but support it if you like the brand? LOL...how very inconsistent...

My opinion is a little more clear cut. Fuck bailing them out. Let them go chapter 11 and let a bankruptcy judge sort them out...if they aren't viable, break em up and sell the parts off. If they can downsize and remain viable then do it. either way it's not our responsibility to "save" them.

Just curious...do you feel the same way about the bailout for the financial companies? or those who bought homes they could not afford? I know that some were duped into buying with an ARM but to me, and call me cold hearted, those who over bought because they wanted that big sq.footage need to suck it up and foreclose if need be. Why should those of us who bought our homes wisely have to pay for those who didn't?

[MannyIsGod]

LOL

Manny, who buys car brands?...Other car makers...they are ALL struggling. Thus, no takers at the price GM wanted for it...

You realize Toyota sales are down just as much as Fords and GM's right?



And yet Toyota isn't about to go out of business, is it? You act as if all of a sudden car markers are going to pass on a gold mine. No one is buying it because its not a brand anyone thinks can make money. I find it laughable that you're actually trying to say GM has any leverage to try to get a better price out of someone.




And you don't approve of a bailout if it includes brands you don't approve of, but support it if you like the brand? LOL...how very inconsistent...

My opinion is a little more clear cut. Fuck bailing them out. Let them go chapter 11 and let a bankruptcy judge sort them out...if they aren't viable, break em up and sell the parts off. If they can downsize and remain viable then do it. either way it's not our responsibility to "save" them.

It has nothing to do with the brands I like and everything to do with the brands that make money. You have no case to make for the continuation of the Hummer brand because its simply not making money but instead of attributing the possible caveat of a bailout to sound fiscal reasoning you try to make it into an ideological battle. You may want to pick your fights a little bit better than that CC because no amount of wishing for cheap gas is going to make it happen. Even the prices we have right now are a dramatic increase from the gas prices we saw during the height of the SUV craze and I don't know anyone who expects them to stay this low for an extended period of time.

I think you know all of that damn well but you didn't want to let it get in the way of your wah wah the lefties are taking away my big toys bitchfest.

Carry on.

[CosmicCowboy]

I think this whole "bailout" thing is just extending the pain. We have lived in an unrealistic credit bubble economy for the last 20 years. Just let it shake out. We shouldn't have given the banks a fucking dime. Would there be a lot of short term pain till the economy re-allocated resources and re-stabilized? Yep, but we could have taken a few of those trillions of dollars they are giving away and spent it on the "little" people that got hurt in the process and get them in a situation where they can realistically live within their means.

[JoeChalupa]

I think this whole "bailout" thing is just extending the pain. We have lived in an unrealistic credit bubble economy for the last 20 years. Just let it shake out. We shouldn't have given the banks a fucking dime. Would there be a lot of short term pain till the economy re-allocated resources and re-stabilized? Yep, but we could have taken a few of those trillions of dollars they are giving away and spent it on the "little" people that got hurt in the process and get them in a situation where they can realistically live within their means.

But they should never have put themselves in that situation by buying what they realistically could not afford.
I wouldn't have liked to see so many jobs lost but it is what it is sometimes.

[MannyIsGod]

Yeah, lets go ahead and cut off that arm because its broken. Another one will grow back in its place or in the least our other arm will pick up the slack.

3 million jobs. 3,000,000.

The bailout is smaller than what it would cost this country to lose 3 million jobs within a year from this one industry. There are different ways to solve problems and inevitably they will solve themselves but I don't understand the desire to let things hit rock bottom if you can try to get to

And in any event, this thread wasn't about the bailout and its merits but rather how the damn lefties were getting rid of the car brands that they don't like.

[BacktoBasics]

Just curious...do you feel the same way about the bailout for the financial companies? or those who bought homes they could not afford? I know that some were duped into buying with an ARM but to me, and call me cold hearted, those who over bought because they wanted that big sq.footage need to suck it up and foreclose if need be. Why should those of us who bought our homes wisely have to pay for those who didn't?Without getting into something I'm not in total understanding of the bad home loans were just a portion of the mortgage crisis. This crisis was compounded by the people basically betting one way or the other with insured bets at only a portion of the cost.

Extra Stout made a nice post about this in the Political Forum


Well, as these markets became deregulated, Wall Street came up with ever more complex financial instruments for packaging together securities and derivatives. Take the subprime mortgages, for example, which were the bad loans given to bad credit risks where the bank was counting on a foreclosure so it could get the house back after it had appreciated in price (except the price collapsed instead). These are very risky loans, and if you were to assemble a security based upon them, a buyer would demand a very high interest rate on it, since it is a "junk bond," so the issuer of those mortgages would not get paid much for selling off a bunch of bad mortgages. But what these firms did is set up a complex hierarchy of securities based upon these bad mortgages. The first set would be like "preferred stock," that is, if anything happened, whoever held them would be first in line to get paid. Then the second set would pay off, then the third set, and so forth. The trick is that the first set would get a very high bond rating, like AA/AAA, so those firms could package up bad loans, basically launder them into high-grade bonds, and get a very high price for them.

The problem was that once real estate prices fell, all those bonds, regardless of rating, were utterly worthless.

And since they were high-rated bonds, big banks and pension funds had snapped them up, and were left holding the bag.

[BacktoBasics]

Yeah, lets go ahead and cut off that arm because its broken. Another one will grow back in its place or in the least our other arm will pick up the slack.

3 million jobs. 3,000,000.

The bailout is smaller than what it would cost this country to lose 3 million jobs within a year from this one industry. There are different ways to solve problems and inevitably they will solve themselves but I don't understand the desire to let things hit rock bottom if you can try to get to

And in any event, this thread wasn't about the bailout and its merits but rather how the damn lefties were getting rid of the car brands that they don't like.At least they demanded they go back and actually forumale a good plan for the use of the money instead of just handing it out freely. I feel better now about bailing them out than I did a month ago.

[CosmicCowboy]

I think you know all of that damn well but you didn't want to let it get in the way of your wah wah the lefties are taking away my big toys bitchfest.

:lmao

Manny, I could give a shit about hummers.

What I DON"T like is the politicians in Washington spending MY money to bail out companies and spending MY money to further their political philosophy.

Your premise is that the auto companies are in trouble because they didn't build what you think they should have built...

I say they are in trouble for a variety of reasons and a bankruptcy court may be the logical place to resolve it.

[MannyIsGod]

:lmao

Manny, I could give a shit about hummers.

What I DON"T like is the politicians in Washington spending MY money to bail out companies and spending MY money to further their political philosophy.

Your premise is that the auto companies are in trouble because they didn't build what you think they should have built...

I say they are in trouble for a variety of reasons and a bankruptcy court may be the logical place to resolve it.

Man - if you're going to make up what I think at least throw some space aliens and clowns in. Thanks

[Viva Las Espuelas]

hmm. someone missed feeding time.

[BacktoBasics]

Even in a tough economy if the banks hadn't shut their doors on lending the auto industry would have been down but no where near out.

This is all a byproduct of the lending world. There is no shortage of buyers. I'm tired of them parading out the some old "no ones buying" garbage.

[JoeChalupa]

Without getting into something I'm not in total understanding of the bad home loans were just a portion of the mortgage crisis. This crisis was compounded by the people basically betting one way or the other with insured bets at only a portion of the cost.

Extra Stout made a nice post about this in the Political Forum

Yup, I read that post but I still don't like the fact that those of us who bought homes wisely are having to bail out those who didn't.

[BacktoBasics]

Yup, I read that post but I still don't like the fact that those of us who bought homes wisely are having to bail out those who didn't.
The morons who willingly bought into bad deals probably make up less than 15% of the entire scope of the problem. I used to think that figure was higher...more along your line of thought but the more I understand whats happening the more that % dwindles.

[CosmicCowboy]

Yup, I read that post but I still don't like the fact that those of us who bought homes wisely are having to bail out those who didn't.

It's not just mortgage bailouts. The US government has committed to 7.7 TRILLION of either direct investment or loan guarantees for the same companies that created this mess to start with.

Thats about $50,000 for every single taxpayer in the United States.

That is absolutely criminal.

[BacktoBasics]

It's not just mortgage bailouts. The US government has committed to 7.7 TRILLION of either direct investment or loan guarantees for the same companies that created this mess to start with.

Thats about $50,000 for every single taxpayer in the United States.

That is absolutely criminal.See he said it better than I did.

[tlongII]

Personally I like my FJ...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v513/tlongII/fjcruiser.jpg

[BacktoBasics]

Personally I like my FJ...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v513/tlongII/fjcruiser.jpg

Look at me look at me I have an FJ how manly and important of me to have an FJ. Look everyone look at my FJ pictures watch how my FJ sips water on a hot summer day....

:vomit:

[tlongII]

Yah I'm a RICHER BABY!

[CuckingFunt]

watch how my FJ sips water on a hot summer day....

Watch out for bad gas.

[tlongII]

Watch out for bad gas.

I've had bad gas a number of times. I don't think anybody was in the car with me though.

[Bigzax]

does that ride reel in the lucy liu's tlong!?

[tlongII]

does that ride reel in the lucy liu's tlong!?

Made In Japan BABY!

[JoeChalupa]

I like my 1996 Saturn!!!

[JoeChalupa]

It's not just mortgage bailouts. The US government has committed to 7.7 TRILLION of either direct investment or loan guarantees for the same companies that created this mess to start with.

Thats about $50,000 for every single taxpayer in the United States.

That is absolutely criminal.

I knew that already but I don't give a damn if the % is 1%. They need to foreclose if they can't pay.

[BacktoBasics]

I knew that already but I don't give a damn if the % is 1%. They need to foreclose if they can't pay.The point is that your good money isn't going to cover a mistake made by stupid people getting into stupid loans its going to cover a mistake made by everyone trying to get rich quick. The problem lies more in all the variables before and after the singular bad choice an average joe makes. Basically blame the problem and the grabbing hands not the victim because the people who got bad loans knowingly aren't the real catalyts in all of this. Its like blaming the gas attendant for pumping your car full of bad gas just because he knew it was bad gas. He's not the problem the people who put the gas there and allowed others to profit off it are.

[Sportcamper]

The best way out of this mess is to find a way to get rich people to spend money again…

Congress should implement Gas Vouchers for Suburban owners…Huge tax write offs for Cadillac purchases, 45k Government tax free money for people buying 400k homes…It is the only fair thing to do…