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View Full Version : Game Thoughts: Spurs vs. Pistons Dec. 2



timvp
12-03-2008, 05:54 AM
Looking to bounce back after a disappointing loss in Houston, the Spurs came back to San Antonio and instead added to the disappointment. The Detroit Pistons rallied from a 10-point third quarter deficit to post a decisive 89-77 victory.

The Pistons, who are still looking to reclaim their chemistry after trading for Allen Iverson earlier in the season, were very impressive down the stretch of the game. Rasheed Wallace was fired up, Allen Iverson was his usual disruptive self and Rodney Stuckey did his best Chauncey Billups imitation. Tayshaun Prince and Richard Hamilton were each extremely aggressive and continually found holes in San Antonio’s defense. The Pistons still have a ways to go to figure out how to play well as a unit but their win on Tuesday night was definitely a step in the right direction.

For the Spurs, it’s a frustrating point in the season. After the game, Pop called the team soft – a tactic he uses at least once a season. And while their lack of physicality was part of the problem, their stagnant offense was also a major culprit. Adding All-Stars Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili back into the equation would seemingly help the offense, but the All-Star duo is having a tough time figuring out how to fit back into the team concept. That issue is being compounded with everyone else on the team passively standing around waiting for Parker and Ginobili to figure it out.

Overall, it’s not shocking that the Spurs are going through an adjustment period, however the adjustments being this difficult to figure out is surprising. The cohesiveness on offense is nowhere to found and then the passive play is carried over to the other end of the court. The Spurs will figure it out eventually but it’s going to be ugly until that point.

Tim Duncan
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3173.jpg
40 minutes, 23 points, 13 rebounds, four turnovers
9-for-19 from the field, 5-for-6 at the line

Tim Duncan was fantastic in the first half. With the rest of the team in an offensive funk, Duncan literally carried the team. He scored 18 points in the first half on an array of post moves and jumpers. After getting off to a good start in the second half, he was held without a field goal for the last 19 minutes of the game. Detroit’s defense deserves props for stepping up their intensity in the paint, but the rest of the team wasn’t exactly helping Duncan out by standing around waiting for him to re-takeover the game. Defensively, Duncan was actually pretty effective – especially shutting off the paint in the halfcourt sets. Like everyone else, though, he could have played with more toughness in the paint on the defensive end.
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Manu Ginobili
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3380.jpg
28 minutes, 13 points, three rebounds, three assists
4-for-11 from the field, 2-for-6 on three-pointers, 3-for-4 at the line

Manu Ginobili had his second consecutive difficult outing. Like last game, Ginobili seems to be laboring a bit on his surgery repaired ankle. The aspect that really stands out is that Ginobili is having a tough time stopping as quickly as before. A lot of his offensive play is contingent upon him being able to stop on a dime to either shoot or change direction – and he’s just not able to do that right now. It’s not time to panic yet but that’s something to watch for as the season progresses. Against the Pistons, Ginobili had a few good moments offensively but a lot of the time the player movement and the ball movement stopped when he had the ball – especially when he played with the second unit. And while Ginobili has to adjust, it’s more of everyone else having to adjust to Ginobili. Players like George Hill and Roger Mason, Jr. can’t wait defer to Ginobili so much that they become non-factors.
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Tony Parker
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3527.jpg
36 minutes, 18 points, five assists, four rebounds, three turnovers
6-for-14 from the field, 6-for-8 at the line

It’d be easy to blame Tony Parker’s struggles on injury but he looks healthy enough to me. I don’t see a lack of explosion or a lack of speed. At the moment it appears that he’s just unsure of himself and out of rhythm. He’s trying to figure out when to attack and when to run plays for others … and he’s not having much success. Like Ginobili, Parker is having trouble figuring out his role when playing with the second unit. Defensively, he had some good moments against Iverson but also had other moments where he let AI push him around.
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Michael Finley
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3023.jpg
34 minutes, five points, three rebounds, two assists
2-for-8 from the field, 1-for-6 on three-pointers

Michael Finley had one of his worst games of the season. He missed a bunch of wide open shots offensively and had almost no energy on the defensive end. Whenever Prince would go around a screen, Finley would get hung up on the screen and give Prince a wide open jumper. Finley, who started at small forward once again, has to play with more effort defensively to keep his starting gig. On offense, Finley hasn’t figured out how to play next to Ginobili. Since Ginobili’s return, Finley is shooting 35.9% from the field and his points per minute statistic is way down. Finley has to find ways to contribute offensively when he doesn’t have a lot of plays called for him.
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Matt Bonner
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3748.jpg
25 minutes, five points, nine rebounds
2-for-8 from the field, 1-for-5 on three-pointers

Matt Bonner leapfrogged Fabricio Oberto to start at center. Bonner responded by having one of his worst shooting games of the season. I thought his shot selection was questionable a few times when he launched shots with Wallace running out on him. The good news is that Bonner did a fine job defensively and on the boards. He was one of the few Spurs players that was physical down low and it was great to see him rebounding the ball well. In his current stretch of good play, his rebounding numbers had started to drop as his shooting percentages rose.
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Roger Mason, Jr.
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3628.jpg
31 minutes, six points, two rebounds, five turnovers
2-for-6 from the field, 1-for-4 on three-pointers

Roger Mason, Jr. is having a tough time adjusting to Parker and Ginobili getting more touches. As a result, he has been rushing shots and forcing the issue with drives down the lane. To his credit, he wouldn’t be getting many shots at all if he wasn’t playing with tons of aggression. Against the Pistons, Mason had a poor game. Defensively he was a step slow and offensively he hurt the team with his five turnovers. One area that Mason needs to work on is not letting players hack down on the ball when he’s driving the lane. Cradling the ball a la Parker and Ginobili would cut down on his turnover rate.
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Bruce Bowen
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3167.jpg
16 minutes, five points, three rebounds, two steals
2-for-3 from the field, 1-for-2 on three-pointers

Bruce Bowen didn’t have much to hang his head about after this game. He came off the bench and played his role well. Defensively, Bowen was a pest and was one of the few players on the team willing to go chest to chest against the Pistons. Bowen even chipped in with a couple of buckets on the offensive end. With Parker and Ginobili in the starting lineup, I’m not quite sure why Bowen hasn’t joined them. A player who doesn’t need the ball on offense and is willing to play tough defense seems like exactly what the starting lineup needs.
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Fabricio Oberto
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3988.jpg
14 minutes, two points, two rebounds
1-for-2 from the field

Fabricio Oberto’s lack of doing much of anything statistically finally cost him his starting job. I have to believe that rebounding was the biggest reason for the demotion and his one defensive rebound in 14 minutes against Detroit didn’t help his case. In the past, Oberto has struggled coming off the bench and if he does that this year, he could find himself totally out of the rotation. His passing is his strength right now but even he’s not a good enough passer to make up for a lack of rebound and a lack of scoring.
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George Hill
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/4488.jpg
Six minutes, two rebounds

George Hill was the definition of passiveness in his six minutes of action in the first half. On offense, he failed to do much of anything other than bring the ball up and pass it off. I can’t remember even one instance where he attacked. He let the Pistons pressure him to take the ball out of his hands and deferred completely to Ginobili when paired with him. Defensively, he wasn’t doing anything to negate his non-existent offensive play. All that said, I though Pop should have given him another shot in the second half. Giving him the Beno Treatment isn’t going to do anything to help him figure out how to play now that the cavalry has arrived. Hill has to realize that even if he’s on the court with David Robinson, George Gervin, Sean Elliott and James Silas he must play aggressively and act like he’s the best player on the floor. When he’s in attack mode, he’s a very good player. When he plays like Jacque Vaughn’s younger brother, he’s not.
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Jacque Vaughn
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3195.jpg
Six minutes, one assist

Jacque Vaughn wasn’t the answer on this night. I’m not sure why Pop went with him in the second half, especially when the offense was struggling enough without Vaughn on the court. Vaughn of course played hard but he was overmatched on both ends. With as much as Hill has shown, there’s really no reason to ever go with Vaughn. Heck, if Pop wants to bench Hill, I’d much prefer he go with Mason or Ginobili at point guard.
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Ime Udoka
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3501.jpg
Four minutes

Pop didn’t play Ime Udoka until eight and a half minutes to go in the game. The Pistons proceeded to score nine straight points. While it all wasn’t Udoka’s fault, he certainly didn’t do anything to help. His defense was again atrocious out on the perimeter and he didn’t help out on the boards. Pop put Udoka in a tough spot and not surprisingly Udoka failed to deliver.
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Gregg Popovich
http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/topstory/sports/popovich_gregg030428.jpg

Pop produced many questionable decisions against the Pistons. First of all, I’m far from sold on the starting lineup. If you are going to start Parker and Ginobili, I don’t understand why he selected Finley as the third perimeter player. Putting another player into the unit that needs touches and plays called for him doesn’t make much sense. Then playing Finley 34 minutes even when he wasn’t much of a help on either end made even less sense. Worst of all was Pop going with Vaughn over Hill. I don’t care if Hill is playing horribly, Vaughn is not the answer. Repeat: Vaughn. Is. Not. The. Answer. Oh and playing Bowen only 16 minutes when he was one of the few players producing was another head scratcher.
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Offense

The offense was difficult to watch. Stagnation was taken to a whole new level. The role players were waiting for the Big Three to produce, while the Big Three couldn’t figure out what they wanted to do. On top of that, Pop’s highly questionable rotation magnified the problems. For the game, the Spurs shot 39.4% from the field, hit only 6-of-24 three-pointers and only got to the line 19 times. They also had a season-high 17 turnovers to go with the same number of assists. Pop and the Big Three need to settle on an offensive game plan and the role players need to not be afraid to make things happen on their own.

Defense

The numbers look horrible for the defense and while the defense was definitely poor, a lot of the problems came off of turnovers. The Pistons seemingly had 14 steals and seemingly ran each one of those steals down the court for an easy basket. The transition defense could have been better but even the best transition defense can’t cover breakaway baskets off of steals. In the halfcourt, the Spurs played good defense at times but when the Pistons upped their intensity, the Spurs failed to match it. On the night, the Pistons shot 50% from the floor and 54.5% from beyond the three-point arc. Rebounding was again a bright spot for the Spurs as they outrebounded the Pistons 41-37.

Drive to Five

The Spurs are in a rough patch right now. There’s too much thinking going on and not nearly enough aggressiveness. Next up, the Spurs face a Denver Nuggets team that is playing great basketball at the moment. They’ve won their last three games by 59 points and handed the Spurs a ten-point defeat in San Antonio a few weeks ago. This isn’t the team you want to face when you are struggling, especially on the road, but a win here would really be a confidence builder and could possibly shake the Spurs out of this funk.

Believe.

NuGGeTs-FaN
12-03-2008, 06:38 AM
i'll be patient and let Enigma start the next game thread :lol

It will be a tough game coz the Spurs are still the Spurs. They have had a couple of big losses and they will be fired up.

mystargtr34
12-03-2008, 06:44 AM
Unfortunately these Spurs arent still those Spurs.

Yet to see that.

sonic21
12-03-2008, 07:05 AM
:tu thanks

sanman53
12-03-2008, 07:26 AM
Nice read. Seems like we are hearing every game of Finley 'this was the worst game of the season for Finley'. I just hope this trend doesn't continue for Fin.

Brazil
12-03-2008, 07:31 AM
Do we have an idea of what was the Pop plan during this game ? Why insisting playing Finley ? Why JV ? Why only few minutes for Bowen ? why ? why ?

CIA stuff ?

gingerwave
12-03-2008, 08:18 AM
Do we have an idea of what was the Pop plan during this game ?


Seems like he was trying to get away with one.

benefactor
12-03-2008, 09:07 AM
My thoughts can be summed up in two words...we sucked.

ManuTastic
12-03-2008, 09:16 AM
Strange lineups and substitutions last night, maybe best summed up by one comment: WTF was JV doing in there?

Then again, that's Pop. I can't even count how many November and December games he's virtually thrown away through the years by "experimenting" with his lineups. It's just something he does early in the season, and I've always hated it. :bang

Russ
12-03-2008, 09:18 AM
Paralysis by analysis. No one sure of their role -- too much deference now that they are each surrounded by such talent.

They just need to be more aggressive, less deferential and regain their edge.

Assuming egos stay out of the way, they should be better than ever once they work through this.

Right? :flag:

George Gervin's Afro
12-03-2008, 09:18 AM
What troubles me the most is that we are almost 25% through the season and we show no signs of immediate improvement. Let's be honest we haven't played the celtics, lakers, Hornets yet and we still at least 2 games with the Blazers, Nuggets, Rockets, so this notion that when we finally gell we can make a push is a stretch. By the time we 'gell' we may be fighting just to make the playoffs. It is disappointing to see Parker not trying to involve the news guys Mason in particular. Parker knows he's not in game shape so instead of trying to slowly intergrate himslef into the offense he dominates the ball and our offense is at a standstill. There were a couple of moments last night where mason was open yet parker took a 19ft jump shot. When m,anu came back he didn't force things rather he let them come to him. TP decides that he is going to dominate the ball like old times.

Solid D
12-03-2008, 09:20 AM
Thanks for the game thoughts, timvp.

As I watched this game, I kept getting the feeling that the Spurs felt a sense of entitlement. A false sense of entitlement. The Pistons' 2nd unit was extremely tough defensively and they totally discombobulated the flow. The Spurs did their share to stink it up but Stuckey, Afflalo, and Johnson were particularly impressive. Stuckey got away with lots bumps and knocking people off the ball but hey, it worked. Afflalo disrupted many a play, getting up into guys and blowing up side screen-roll plays. He dislodged or blocked the ball several times.

It would have been nice if Hill could have matched Stuckey's play but he didn't and Pop didn't give him a chance in the 2nd half to redeem himself.

I'm still not sure why Pop didn't play Kurt and why he skipped resting Timmy until the 2nd quarter. Kurt was superglued to the bench.

The Spurs shot the ball with no rhythm and it was basically a clankfest. Very similar look and feel to the Denver flush.

MoSpur
12-03-2008, 09:24 AM
I put a lot of the blame on Pop for this loss. The players are the ones who are suppose to go out and execute. However, the lineups Pop sent out there were very questionable.

Dex
12-03-2008, 10:39 AM
Repeat: Vaughn. Is. Not. The. Answer.

Thank god somebody else finally said it.

Yeah, I'm glad the guy was able to not screw up our 2007 championship, but beyond that Vaughn is a perennial disappointment.

Dex
12-03-2008, 10:43 AM
And this seems like one of the worst games Pop has coached in a while. From the starting lineup to the closing seconds, there was questionable decision after questionable decision.

I know he's got new toys to play with, but jeez....

Brazil
12-03-2008, 10:46 AM
I know he's got new toys to play with, but jeez....

:lol exactly, he is like a kid in a toys R us the day before X-mas

xtremesteven33
12-03-2008, 11:34 AM
Parker
Mason
Bowen
Duncan
Thomas

would be the best starting lineup IMO.

Brazil
12-03-2008, 11:36 AM
Parker
Mason
Bowen
Duncan
Thomas

would be the best starting lineup IMO.

+1000000 !

2centsworth
12-03-2008, 12:11 PM
please God let me be wrong about Ginobilli's ankle.

T Park
12-03-2008, 12:12 PM
Thank god somebody else finally said it.

Yeah, I'm glad the guy was able to not screw up our 2007 championship, but beyond that Vaughn is a perennial disappointment.

Your kidding right?

Everyone has said that for the past couple years. Christ pay attention.

xtremesteven33
12-03-2008, 12:14 PM
please God let me be wrong about Ginobilli's ankle.



yea he looks a little bad.

kinda reminds me of how he played last year against the Lakers in the playoffs.

hopefully he just needs to get loose.

zepn
12-03-2008, 12:22 PM
Looked like Pop wanted to beat Detroit with offense for some reason. He started the (potentially) best scorer at each position:

Parker
Ginobili
Finley
Bonner
Duncan

I would go back to basics for a while (depending on matchups, of course) with:

Parker
Ginobili
Bowen
Duncan
Oberto

Hill
Mason
Finley
Bonner
Thomas

This gets the old Championship winning end-of-game crew back up to speed with each other and lets the Hill/Mason combo be aggressive instead of deferring to the big three.

SenorSpur
12-03-2008, 12:54 PM
Another good summary.

I, too, was puzzled at why Pop though JV would be the answer in the 2nd half. If Pop was upset about Hill being passive in his 6 minutes of action, he should've bench the entire team. Hill deserved another shot, as he's proven that he does respond well when challenged.

Dex
12-03-2008, 01:01 PM
Your kidding right?

Everyone has said that for the past couple years. Christ pay attention.

:lol

I'm still waiting for somebody to come to his defense for his 'consistency' and 'ability to lead the team'.

Yeah, his ability to consistently lead the team into the ground.

whottt
12-03-2008, 01:15 PM
Matt Bonner
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3748.jpg
25 minutes, five points, nine rebounds
2-for-8 from the field, 1-for-5 on three-pointers

Matt Bonner leapfrogged Fabricio Oberto to start at center. Bonner responded by having one of his worst shooting games of the season. I thought his shot selection was questionable a few times when he launched shots with Wallace running out on him. The good news is that Bonner did a fine job defensively and on the boards. He was one of the few Spurs players that was physical down low and it was great to see him rebounding the ball well. In his current stretch of good play, his rebounding numbers had started to drop as his shooting percentages rose.
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It's good to see you giving my boy Matt Bonner props...it looked to me like he was one of the best players on the court last night, inspite of his shooting.

And since Bonner is the type that will beat himself up over missing shots and likely go into a funk over it...him missing those shots is not as big of a negative as him continuing to take them is a positive.



George Hill
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/4488.jpg
Six minutes, two rebounds

George Hill was the definition of passiveness in his six minutes of action in the first half. On offense, he failed to do much of anything other than bring the ball up and pass it off. I can’t remember even one instance where he attacked. He let the Pistons pressure him to take the ball out of his hands and deferred completely to Ginobili when paired with him. Defensively, he wasn’t doing anything to negate his non-existent offensive play. All that said, I though Pop should have given him another shot in the second half. Giving him the Beno Treatment isn’t going to do anything to help him figure out how to play now that the cavalry has arrived. Hill has to realize that even if he’s on the court with David Robinson, George Gervin, Sean Elliott and James Silas he must play aggressively and act like he’s the best player on the floor. When he’s in attack mode, he’s a very good player. When he plays like Jacque Vaughn’s younger brother, he’s not.
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Massivw fail...after all these years timvp still attempts to excuse Pop's military style attitude conditioning as justified because of poor play on the part of the player...6 minutes isn't enough to do anything.

I've seen Duncan flat out stink his first 6 minutes and be completely passive, probably 300 times in his career...he doesn't get that hook like many others do.

George Hill was passive yes, in extremely limited playing time...George Hill did not get minutes to find out if he would have continued being passive...Pop did not let him.

He was no more passive than hundreds of other players are at times during every NBA game day...Pop just wants an attack dog. Acting like the quick hook was justified because of horrendous play, and not Pop's controlling style, is hilarious...as it always has been.

SenorSpur
12-03-2008, 01:19 PM
Pop is into rookie hazing.

benefactor
12-03-2008, 01:21 PM
Pop is into rookie hazing.
Hopefully George's will is stronger than Beno's....

Ed Helicopter Jones
12-03-2008, 01:42 PM
My usual kudos to Mr. Timvp on his game comments. :tu


I totally agree that Bowen should be in the starting lineup when Tony and Manu are both out there. Finley playing 34 minutes is a waste.....5 points and no defense. Bowen, even if he's not scoring, is going to negate several points by the opposition, space the floor and help Tony and Manu do their thing.

I'm not sure I like having a second unit that isn't powered by the Manu. I still think we're stronger with Manu coming off the bench.

I'm hoping Mahinmi can get into the rotation at some point. If Tim had a big body in the paint with him defensively I think the team will be a lot better. We have no intimidator in the lane to team with Duncan. Even if Mahinmi's offensive game consists of him doing no more than cheating off double teams for open gimmes around the basket, his youthfulness on the defensive end and rebounding could be welcome. We won't compete for a championship starting Matt Bonner, in spite of his better play as of late. Work in Mahinmi as a starter, use Bonner as a backup, and relegate Oberto and Thomas to backing up TD.

Bender
12-03-2008, 01:47 PM
In the pregame show, Pop said something about Mahinmi hurting his "other" ankle. Is this something new, or the same thing we've been waiting on since preseason...?

Is the guy so fragile he can't ever play an NBA game?

Spurs Brazil
12-03-2008, 02:06 PM
Great recao timvp

I think there are 3 things Pop must do

1 - Start Bowen over Finley.
2 - Ime and Oberto to the doghouse. Ime is playing S.Smith defense and Oberto can play D and miss everything near the rim.
3 - Play Hill. No more JV

#2!
12-03-2008, 03:40 PM
It is disappointing to see Parker not trying to involve the news guys Mason in particular. Parker knows he's not in game shape so instead of trying to slowly intergrate himslef into the offense he dominates the ball and our offense is at a standstill. There were a couple of moments last night where mason was open yet parker took a 19ft jump shot. When m,anu came back he didn't force things rather he let them come to him. TP decides that he is going to dominate the ball like old times.

I agree that tony needs to learn how to play with mason, and mason needs to figure out what his role will be now that he's not trying to replace our scoring duo. However, its ridiculous to say that manu hasn't been doing the exact same thing with mason and hill. You don't score 12 points in 11 minutes by being a team player.

Don't get me wrong I love the aggression, but Tony and Manu have major adjustments to make, much larger than most (including timvp) are giving them credit for. They are going from a team where they ARE the offense, to a team where there are new competent role players(hill, mason) and where former black holes have become somewhat reliable(finley, bonner). Its going to take time, and honestly there may not be a better way to adjust each players game, as well as break down any ego that could hurt our team oriented game plan, than throwing out random lineups and varying guy's minutes from game to game.

Of course this should happen less and less as the season goes on, but I believe there is good to be borne out from these tough losses with seemingly nonsense gameplans.
In Pop We Trust

YODA
12-03-2008, 03:52 PM
Ive pretty much love to READ TIMVP. Most times always writting what Im thinking.

Today, I have a problem with Bonners assessment. Take a closer look at those rotations and physicality in the lane when it was needed. I could be wrong, but Im seeing something else.

Manufan909
12-03-2008, 05:07 PM
Ive pretty much love to READ TIMVP. Most times always writting what Im thinking.

Today, I have a problem with Bonners assessment. Take a closer look at those rotations and physicality in the lane when it was needed. I could be wrong, but Im seeing something else.

Care to actually elaborate what you saw? That might help.

I also wish Hill had more than 6 measly minutes to prove himself. Finley had 34minutes to do jack shit, why cant Hill get 15? And KT had no time to do anything, yet Fab continually playing like ass gets time. Also, this hat on Bonner needs to step if he actually produces and plays smart. Not only did he hustle like always, but he actually played good D and snagged alot of rebounds.

And with Manu starting, WTF!?!?!? He needs to be energy off the bench with Hill. And Bruce needs to start again now, I'd like to see TP, Mason, Bruce, Tim, and Bonner/KT with Hill, Manu, Finley, KT/Bonner, and Fab to back them up. Fab and Fin shouldn't get another start til they play solid for A WHOLE WEEK. And JV should never be activiated again, I've already said there's 4 solid PGs right now, I cant believe Pop hasn't noticed.

timvp
12-03-2008, 05:52 PM
What troubles me the most is that we are almost 25% through the season and we show no signs of immediate improvement. That's an odd take. The Spurs showed plenty of improvement earlier in the season. This latest problem is all of two games old. It's not like the Spurs have been in their current struggling state the whole season.


It is disappointing to see Parker not trying to involve the news guys Mason in particular. Parker knows he's not in game shape so instead of trying to slowly intergrate himslef into the offense he dominates the ball and our offense is at a standstill. There were a couple of moments last night where mason was open yet parker took a 19ft jump shot. When m,anu came back he didn't force things rather he let them come to him. TP decides that he is going to dominate the ball like old times.This makes me wonder if you watched the game. The only times Mason got any type of quality shot was when Parker was in the game. When Mason was out there with any other combination, he was frozen out. Parker played pretty poorly but you are off base with this criticism.

And then saying Manu let things come to him? He and TP had the same exact problems. In fact, Hill not doing anything in the first half can be directly connected to Manu dominating the ball so much when he was paired with Hill. Manu at times took over point guard duties from Hill and was constantly calling for the ball. Hill deferred but Manu was helping him defer by taking so much of the ball handling duties.

Both TP and Manu are trying to figure out who to re-fit themselves back into the team. Neither one is doing a better job than the other one right now. If I had to pick one, I'd say the team is responding better to TP's suckage than Manu's suckage right now. TP was a +15 on the night before the fourth quarter, while Manu was a -10. A 25 point swing in close game is pretty massive.

nbachamps2008
12-03-2008, 06:00 PM
could it get any worse for detroit and spurs?

timvp
12-03-2008, 06:00 PM
It's good to see you giving my boy Matt Bonner props:lol



Massivw fail...after all these years timvp still attempts to excuse Pop's military style attitude conditioning as justified because of poor play on the part of the player...6 minutes isn't enough to do anything.

I've seen Duncan flat out stink his first 6 minutes and be completely passive, probably 300 times in his career...he doesn't get that hook like many others do.

George Hill was passive yes, in extremely limited playing time...George Hill did not get minutes to find out if he would have continued being passive...Pop did not let him.

He was no more passive than hundreds of other players are at times during every NBA game day...Pop just wants an attack dog. Acting like the quick hook was justified because of horrendous play, and not Pop's controlling style, is hilarious...as it always has been.Somebody didn't read the whole thread.

Yes, Hill was amazingly passive. But if you read the thread, you'll see where I say Pop's biggest mistake was not going back to Hill.

RIF before Rant. ©

timvp
12-03-2008, 06:08 PM
As I watched this game, I kept getting the feeling that the Spurs felt a sense of entitlement. A false sense of entitlement. Yeah, there was definitely a little bit of arrogance at play. The game in a nutshell could be described by that one play where Manu threw a lazy pass to TP and TP lazily waited for the ball to get to him .... and it was stolen.


I'm still not sure why Pop didn't play Kurt and why he skipped resting Timmy until the 2nd quarter. Kurt was superglued to the bench.I wondered this two but after looking at the lineups the Pistons were playing while Duncan sat, I can understand what Pop was thinking. The lineups consisted of a lot of small ball or two mobile bigs. I don't think KT can guard Rasheed, Maxiell or Amir at this point in his career ... especially when the Spurs were already getting beat up and down the court.

Maybe fighting speed with muscle could have worked, then again we all know that Pop is a counter puncher.

z0sa
12-03-2008, 06:13 PM
Ive pretty much love to READ TIMVP. Most times always writting what Im thinking.

Today, I have a problem with Bonners assessment. Take a closer look at those rotations and physicality in the lane when it was needed. I could be wrong, but Im seeing something else.

You are. Can't we all just get past the Bonner hate? The guy is never going to be a consistent 20 point scorer, or average 3 blocks a game. But his man defense has been impressive, and as PT continues, his rotations (already pretty damn good) are going to be perfect.

Additionally, some wonderful reads these game thoughts are. Thanks Timvp :tu

kace
12-03-2008, 06:20 PM
ok, tony and manu could do better than that last game, no doubt about it. but i still think, especially for tony, that they let a lot the ball out of their hands. they tried to force some plays after having seen, and Pop with them, like everyone who really saw the game, that mason, hill, fin, oberto, bonner, udoka, JV and bruce wouldn't do anything on offense.

and some of you need to understand that when tony or anyone else who lead the play is exchanging signs with Pop, it's not a kind of game : Pop runs the show and chose who take the shot and how many shots he takes. Stop acting like if the player, whoever he is, chose the style of basketball the spurs play. for me, tony, nor manu, surely didn't shoot too much, but what is sure is that Pop tell them if he want them to attack or to pass.

Manufan909
12-03-2008, 09:07 PM
ok, tony and manu could do better than that last game, no doubt about it. but i still think, especially for tony, that they let a lot the ball out of their hands. they tried to force some plays after having seen, and Pop with them, like everyone who really saw the game, that mason, hill, fin, oberto, bonner, udoka, JV and bruce wouldn't do anything on offense.

and some of you need to understand that when tony or anyone else who lead the play is exchanging signs with Pop, it's not a kind of game : Pop runs the show and chose who take the shot and how many shots he takes. Stop acting like if the player, whoever he is, chose the style of basketball the spurs play. for me, tony, nor manu, surely didn't shoot too much, but what is sure is that Pop tell them if he want them to attack or to pass.

Wow, you just caused my bullshit meter to fucking break off. You really think it wasn''t TP or Manu's fault that they both balhogged? Really? It never occurred to you that Hill and Mason took over their duties, and now no one really knows how to play together? And Hill was most definitely deferring too much, he should've drive are called for a play for himself at least once. But having a guy like Manu on the court could make any rookie/role player defer.

He should take some hints from Bonner, just get open and shoot it. He gave himself no chance to get into a rhythm.

HarlemHeat37
12-03-2008, 09:49 PM
nice thoughts timvp..

the only thing I disagree on is Parker's defense..I thought it was horrible..he switched late every time and had too many late rotations, and didn't contest a number of AI's shots in the 1st quarter..he gave him way too much room and Iverson made us pay..

Pop coached one of the worst games I've seen from him..he's easily the best coach in the NBA IMO, but he obviously has his flaws..Bowen not playing more should have been #1..he played great, and you would think Pop would trust him after all these years..Kurt should have played..Oberto couldn't guard anybody neither, but at least Kurt has been making shots and rebounding lately..that one was questionable..Pop's love affair with Finley continues..

I thought we played horrible transition defense and couldn't defend picks..our guys didn't come out on way too many occasions..

we still need some serious work with chemistry..we have 2 other options to score for the first time in a while, so it'll take a little time for Manu and TP to adjust..

Sean Cagney
12-04-2008, 01:14 AM
Pop is into rookie hazing.

Yes he is, but he is also into playing old bums who do notta like Vaughn alot of mins for some reason..... So it's a gift and a curse.

kaji157
12-04-2008, 02:03 AM
I think quite the mess is Pop´s fault, the Ginobili treatment may lead to players tthinking that no matter what they do, if no one produces off the bench, in time, one of them will be a starter again. The team has no feel on who is the man on court or who are the men out there. The rooks cannot learn anything if the system changes every night.

Pop is intelligent, i think the next game we will see The Return of th Champions, Parker-Ginobili-Bowen-Duncan-Oberto and Hill-Mason-Udoka/Finley-Bonner-KT will have to learn how to contribute and produce OFF THE BENCH until they show they are worth starting, and not backwards as it seems on the Spurs. I know they all have produced as starters, but if they want to remain a spur you have to produce off the bench, because no matter who starts, you are never going to get more touches than the Big3.

kaji157
12-04-2008, 02:04 AM
Yes he is, but he is also into playing old bums who do notta like Vaughn alot of mins for some reason..... So it's a gift and a curse.
and Finley... god i hate when he is in more than 20 mins.

superbigtime
12-04-2008, 02:10 AM
Care to actually elaborate what you saw? That might help.

I also wish Hill had more than 6 measly minutes to prove himself. Finley had 34minutes to do jack shit, why cant Hill get 15? And KT had no time to do anything, yet Fab continually playing like ass gets time. Also, this hat on Bonner needs to step if he actually produces and plays smart. Not only did he hustle like always, but he actually played good D and snagged alot of rebounds.

And with Manu starting, WTF!?!?!? He needs to be energy off the bench with Hill. And Bruce needs to start again now, I'd like to see TP, Mason, Bruce, Tim, and Bonner/KT with Hill, Manu, Finley, KT/Bonner, and Fab to back them up. Fab and Fin shouldn't get another start til they play solid for A WHOLE WEEK. And JV should never be activiated again, I've already said there's 4 solid PGs right now, I cant believe Pop hasn't noticed.

How dare you question God Pop?

Manufan909
12-04-2008, 02:17 AM
How dare you question God Pop?

:lol

I know it's all in his Greatness' plan, I'm just too small to understand.

Blackjack
12-04-2008, 02:40 AM
Nice write-up timvp.:toast

Can't say there's much I don't agree with.

The melt-down was disturbing to say the least, but the benching of Hill is what got to me the most after the game. These are the type of games Hill needs to be playing in to advance the learning curve. I said it after the game in another thread, but Pop has got to give him the playing time, and Manu/Mason/Parker, need to defer a little to give him genuine opportunities to sink or swim running the team. Yes, he was passive offensively (and defensively after picking up 2 quick fouls) and I'd like him to wave off whoever is trying to take the ball from him as soon as he gets over half-court, but it's hard to expect that from a rookie. The vets need to give him some rope if they expect him to contribute down the stretch.


Maybe fighting speed with muscle could have worked, then again we all know that Pop is a counter puncher.

This is the brilliance and flaw of Pop's philosophy. (This is a little off the subject, but since you brought it up)

The team he's built into a champion, are in the mold of a Winky Wright. They're defensive minded, tactically sound, play the percentages, and generally win on points. Of course, they're also respected by people in the know, (if not feared by fans and opponents alike) but they're also not appreciated by the average fan.

When it comes to selling tickets and driving interest, those qualities don't resinate with the average fan. Another draw-back of counter-punchers is that they can have a hard time coming back if the opponent comes out aggressive and steals early rounds/build big leads. But the biggest negative to me in being a counter-puncher, is relying on the judges scorecard. When you keep a game or fight close enough? You're allowing factors outside the ring or court to decide the outcome. Often times leaving you to feel that you could of/should of done more, the better man didn't win, or just flat-out cheated.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with being the "Winky Wright" of the N.B.A., (you can't argue with the success) but I wonder if that hasn't become part of the psyche of Spur fans when the team fails to win the championship. Sure, all fans have the coulda-woulda-shoulda/if only after a close playoff loss, but it seems to be more prevalent in fans of counter-punchers. Usually feeling that an outside factor was let to decide the bout.

(Then again, I'm probably just rationalizing how spoiled and entitled we've become as Spur fans over the last decade:lol)

roycrikside
12-04-2008, 04:49 AM
I respectfully disagree with TimVP. I don't think Manu ballhogged too much. 11 shot attempts in 28 mins is hardly ballhogging for him. In fact, there were stretches here and there where he never touched the ball for six, seven possessions at a time. He played like seven minutes in the 3rd quarter and took one shot.

He didn't have a very good game, for sure, but ballhogging was not the problem. What was the problem is that right now he has very little chemistry with Tony, having not played with him since last year and none at all with George Hill or Roger Mason. The point guard on the roster he seems most comfortable with right now is Vaughn because JV is programmed to get the ball to Manu and get the fuck out of the way.

I think it will take two or three weeks for Manu to get back to 100% because he has had no training camp and no preseason, so he's trying to play his way back to health. It will take time, but I see some encouraging signs. Early in the 4th quarter it looked like he was about to try a monster flush from a decent distance away from the rim, but he got fouled on the takeoff so the crowd never got a chance to get energized. Still, the fact that Manu thought he could dunk it from where he took off shows me that he's getting pretty healthy.

He'll figure out how to play with Roger soon enough because Mason is a veteran. Hill, I'm not so sure about. He's not really a catch and shoot guy, so his game doesn't mesh too well with Manu's I don't think. As for the chemistry issues with Tony... well Tony's gonna be Tony.

anakha
12-04-2008, 06:33 AM
He'll figure out how to play with Roger soon enough because Mason is a veteran. Hill, I'm not so sure about. He's not really a catch and shoot guy, so his game doesn't mesh too well with Manu's I don't think. As for the chemistry issues with Tony... well Tony's gonna be Tony.

Real subtle, there. :lol

wildchild
12-04-2008, 10:26 AM
I think quite the mess is Pop´s fault, the Ginobili treatment may lead to players tthinking that no matter what they do, if no one produces off the bench, in time, one of them will be a starter again. The team has no feel on who is the man on court or who are the men out there. The rooks cannot learn anything if the system changes every night.

Pop is intelligent, i think the next game we will see The Return of th Champions, Parker-Ginobili-Bowen-Duncan-Oberto and Hill-Mason-Udoka/Finley-Bonner-KT will have to learn how to contribute and produce OFF THE BENCH until they show they are worth starting, and not backwards as it seems on the Spurs. I know they all have produced as starters, but if they want to remain a spur you have to produce off the bench, because no matter who starts, you are never going to get more touches than the Big3.

I don't think so...Pop doesn't change the starting lineup so early. Tonight we'll see more Parker Ginobili Finley Bonner Duncan.
I've said before about Bowen.
The Spurs need at least a good perimetral defender in the starting lineup. With Manu as starter I prefer Bowen over Finley.
Maybe Oberto on Bonner but only if Oberto can prove to be more effective when he's on the court with Manu. I appreciate Bonners rebounds, however his wrong selection and low IQ bsk, scare me.
On other hands, I hope Mase and Hill find their place in the team.

superbigtime
12-04-2008, 12:12 PM
Parker-Ginobili-Bowen-Duncan-Oberto and Hill-Mason-Udoka/Finley-Bonner-KT will have to learn how to contribute and produce OFF THE BENCH until they show they are worth starting.

Exactly what does Mason have to do to prove that he is worthy of starting??? One so-so game against Houston and he gets sent to the bench after pretty much being better than expected as a starter?? Mason should be starting with TD and Tony. Manu shouldn't be starting at this point if at all.

Allanon
12-04-2008, 12:19 PM
The passive play of Hill and his lack of a second chance was puzzling. I am wondering if he was in Pop's doghouse BEFORE the game. Perhaps Pop said something Hill didn't like before the game and Hill came out distracted or purposely passive. Then Pop said, "Alright, if you're gonna be like that, here, have some Beno time."

Really seemed odd that Hill didn't get ANY PT later on.

mrspurs
12-04-2008, 12:37 PM
In the end it was easy layup after easy layup. And while Timmy tried to stop them layups his man was outside torching him from outside. This game is just like most of last seasons games after they brought in Kurt Thomas. Before Kurt we had some sort of inside defense. Now we have nada. I dont expect Kurt to come back sometime this season and make contributions. Pretty dang simple. We make our 3s we have a chance to win. We dont make our 3s we're probably gonna lose. Its a heartbreak to watch other teams make layups and dunks. Buts that been the mojo around here lately. And with this roster it will continue tobe that way. Excellent read although its basically the same ole same ole. Like I said you could probably just copy and paste every game with our bigs. And I aint being rude.

#2!
12-04-2008, 03:53 PM
every time i see Allanon's sig with tim in a Laker's jersey I die a little inside.

Obstructed_View
12-04-2008, 07:03 PM
every time i see Allanon's sig with tim in a Laker's jersey I die a little inside.

:wtf

Allanon
12-04-2008, 11:06 PM
every time i see Allanon's sig with tim in a Laker's jersey I die a little inside.

Nah, man, he'll never be a Laker, I just like Duncan, would have been cool if he was a Laker.