State of the Spurs PF and C depth

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

There are several threads that hint at this but none that address it head on. We all know doubt is being raised about the Spur's big men and how they cannot guard certain players. The reason New Orleans looked like the better team last year was because of David West and the fact the Spurs sorely lacked athleticism at the PF spot that would have made things hard for him. The argument can certainly be made that if not for his back injury the Hornets win that series. Against the Spurs Odom had a good series because he either had a lot more size or a lot more speed than any Spur defender. Granted Odom did blow in certain games because he's a choker, it was still a problem. Most people forget the absence of a PF quick and athletic enough to comfortably defend out of the paint was why Dirk went wild on them in 2006. God knows the Suns fans who are sick of being associated with whiners and Spurs fans have heard enough about the bullet the Spurs dodged in 2007 against the Suns in game 5, but I believe the bigger bullet they dodged was Dallas in the WCF because they lost to G-State. Odom West and Dirk are all players who Malik Rose would have defended....unfortunately he isn't on the Spurs anymore.
That is their problem on defense, offensively, athletic guys like that get offensive boards. Granted Popovich sacrifices offensive glass in order to get back on D, they are still dead last in offensive glass. Certainly not a category where a championship team needs to be great, but not something a championship team can be dead last in. Having an athletic PF who might not be the biggest guy in the world but has good instincts like Rose can help with the offensive glass and make them a middle of the pack offensive rebounding team rather than a dead last offensive rebounding team.



They also lack a better all around center in addition to a Malik Rose. Again, in 2007 and 2005 having a great all around center wasn't as important because their competition was weaker and didn't have very versatile big men, but that's not the case against a team with Bynum Gasol and Odom. This one really IMO isn't as important as the other thing, because Duncan would play C more with a PF as described about. Someone here (I forget who) said, of the 4 big men they need, they have good stud big man (Duncan) and a good 4th big man who isn't very versatile but can contribute when in (Kurt Thomas). I think KT is a good 3rd big man and cans start next to Duncan. I made this thread so people can suggest what the defensive rotation they would like to see is and what players they want SA trading for. Here's my suggestion:

Go after Ty Thomas. The Bulls seem like they want him out, and he seems like someone who can flourish under Pop. After that give Mahinmi a chance and distribute the minutes like so:

KT: 20
TD: 34
Ty Thomas: 22
Mahinmi: 15

With 5 minutes in there for Finley when they want to play small ball.

[I. Hustle]

What is with all these long ass posts to tell us stuff we either already know or don't care about?







Too much reading

[DROB4EVER]

There Thomas is no better than our Thomas. This guy is not a basket ball player! He is dumb as dirt, turnover prone, cant shoot, cant handle the ball, barely 6-9 and skinny as a rail.

He blocks shot but is very foul prone and is not a shot changer that will lower fg% in the paint.

Our bigs suck. Tim is getting pushed around like he is a rookie, his D has been avg and he is not been dominate. Ian must be made of glass, the dude twisted his ankle months ago and has still not played for us. He too can foul at an alarming pace. Oberto and Thomas just plain suck....not NBA players at all! Bonner gives it all hes got, but lets face it he cant defend anyone and is a below avg offensive player.

Even if Ian turns out to be another Hill which I hope, we need another big to spell him and Tim. I can see Ian playing more than 25mpg unless the NBA allows him to have 20 fouls pr game. Tim needs to stay at 32 mpg to be effective 35 max, and we are giving up way to many shots in the paint that need an eraser to help out on D.

The FO has made some good calls but Williams from NJ is out there and would help us greatly, for them not to attempt to get him or Ronny T from GS is awfulllll!

[Kori Ellis]

What is with all these long ass posts to tell us stuff we either already know or don't care about?







Too much reading

Then just move on and scroll.

[Manufan909]

Then just move on and scroll.

Ellis strikes again!!!

[tonylongoriafan]

seriously...cliffnotes

[mountainballer]

today there was a story that in 2007 the Spurs have made Amir Johnson an offer. (experts wondered why the Pistons re signed him to a 3 years 11 million contract, despite he only played a combined 11 games for them in his 2 seasons in Detroit. now we know). if Johnson had signed, they very likely wouldn't have signed Ian.
Johnson gives a good idea of what type of player they were after. so TT isn't an absurd idea.
on the other hand, 2006 they tried to get a huge space eater in person of Przybilla. take this two and we get an idea of the shape of our big rotation in Pops plans.
I don't see any chance to get TT, even if the Bulls want to get rid of him. we will never get him for the assets we have, the Bulls will want at least a potential lottery 1st rounder for him.
a better bet might be Sean Williams, who looks like the odd man out in NJ.

[JamStone]

Go after Tyrus Thomas with what? Just because a team might appear to not want a player on their roster, it doesn't automatically mean they'll just give that player away. What can the Spurs offer to get him? And, please no more of this Jacque Vaughn and Matt Bonner or Ime Udoka bullshit. Yes, I know, likely invariably someone will post it anyway.

[tomtom]

Thomas has pretty much nothing but athletic ability.

[Tully365]

Reading your objective assessment of the Spurs, I'm surprised they've been able to win any games at all, never mind actual championships. It appears the Suns have gotten in your eyes and you ain't seeing too clearly.

[galvatron3000]

What is with all these long ass posts to tell us stuff we either already know or don't care about?







Too much reading


:lmao


now back to the topic.

[ElNono]

Tyrus Thomas doesn't know how to play the game. He can jump high though...

[jjktkk]

There are several threads that hint at this but none that address it head on. We all know doubt is being raised about the Spur's big men and how they cannot guard certain players. The reason New Orleans looked like the better team last year was because of David West and the fact the Spurs sorely lacked athleticism at the PF spot that would have made things hard for him. The argument can certainly be made that if not for his back injury the Hornets win that series. Against the Spurs Odom had a good series because he either had a lot more size or a lot more speed than any Spur defender. Granted Odom did blow in certain games because he's a choker, it was still a problem. Most people forget the absence of a PF quick and athletic enough to comfortably defend out of the paint was why Dirk went wild on them in 2006. God knows the Suns fans who are sick of being associated with whiners and Spurs fans have heard enough about the bullet the Spurs dodged in 2007 against the Suns in game 5, but I believe the bigger bullet they dodged was Dallas in the WCF because they lost to G-State. Odom West and Dirk are all players who Malik Rose would have defended....unfortunately he isn't on the Spurs anymore.
That is their problem on defense, offensively, athletic guys like that get offensive boards. Granted Popovich sacrifices offensive glass in order to get back on D, they are still dead last in offensive glass. Certainly not a category where a championship team needs to be great, but not something a championship team can be dead last in. Having an athletic PF who might not be the biggest guy in the world but has good instincts like Rose can help with the offensive glass and make them a middle of the pack offensive rebounding team rather than a dead last offensive rebounding team.



They also lack a better all around center in addition to a Malik Rose. Again, in 2007 and 2005 having a great all around center wasn't as important because their competition was weaker and didn't have very versatile big men, but that's not the case against a team with Bynum Gasol and Odom. This one really IMO isn't as important as the other thing, because Duncan would play C more with a PF as described about. Someone here (I forget who) said, of the 4 big men they need, they have good stud big man (Duncan) and a good 4th big man who isn't very versatile but can contribute when in (Kurt Thomas). I think KT is a good 3rd big man and cans start next to Duncan. I made this thread so people can suggest what the defensive rotation they would like to see is and what players they want SA trading for. Here's my suggestion:

Go after Ty Thomas. The Bulls seem like they want him out, and he seems like someone who can flourish under Pop. After that give Mahinmi a chance and distribute the minutes like so:

KT: 20
TD: 34
Ty Thomas: 22
Mahinmi: 15

With 5 minutes in there for Finley when they want to play small ball.

The Spurs have tried to find a athletic big, to go along with Duncan. They don't grow on trees. As far as Tyrus Thomas being available, the Bulls want at least a high 1st round pick. Well the Spurs do not possess one. And doesn't that bother you or make you stop and think: Why does Chicago want to get rid of a young, athletic, big man? Because Thomas hasn't matured into a reliable player. Hes a bit of a knucklehead. He has no offensive skills besides dunking and putbacks. This is Thomas's 3rd year in the league and he still hasn't improved from his rookie year. Now if you could get em on the cheap(pipedream), then you might have something.

[m33p0]

outside of duncan, there really isn't any front court depth. dammit. :depressed

[Ocotillo]

Isn't James Gist going to fill that Malik Rose type of role you are describing.

Of course, he isn't coming this year.

Oberto and Thomas are not crap and don't deserve all the hate they are getting. Give Bonner a couple of bad games and he will be getting tossed under the bus again as well.

I like the point that these guys are good 4th or 3rd big men. What we are missing is the second big man, the guy to start next to Duncan. I'd like to see an athletic defender that grabs some boards and gets his points with put backs.

I have said it before, Mahinmi is suppose to be the guy but I my patience is beginning to thin with the fear that he is a china doll.

Other second big men we could have are Luis Scola and we know what happened there.

Splitter also likely would have been a great fit but he is a moot point.

So, if none of Scola, Splitter or Mahinim pan out, we are stuck with Thomas, Oberto and Bonner and maybe a D-league call up and we should be entertaining but I don't think it will be enough to get us over the LOB hump.

What is so frustrating with losing Scola and Splitter and Mahinmi breaking at the sign of contact is the backcourt is so exciting this year.

[Rogue]

outside of duncan, there really isn't any front court depth. dammit. :depressed
That's why we still regret for the trade that sent scola to Houston. :bang

[SpurSupremacist]

but Williams from NJ is out there and would help us greatly, for them not to attempt to get him or Ronny T from GS is awfulllll!

I've wanted Sean Williams for awhile, but I've watched him play a couple of times this season and his attitude has gotten really, really terrible. If people don't want Marbury... well... Marbury is a saint compared to this guy.

I wonder if they'd be willing to part with Yi because of the logjam at PF. If we have any 1st round picks left that we didn't spend on 38-year-old players, we should throw them into the mix for him. His jumper is wet. He's very fast and athletic, too. He's a pretty bad defender, though.

[TDMVPDPOY]

hey wattabout that russian dude we drafted or got from the hawks a few years back? hows his progessing or a fkn bust?

im not talkin about javtokas

[m33p0]

That's why we still regret for the trade that sent scola to Houston. :bang
blame the dollar. or euro. pick your side. pick both. and give splitter the middle finger.

[mountainballer]

looking at our assets and also looking at the history of the Spurs moves, we should look at the more realistic options. we won't get a young lottery pick on a rookie contract, even if this player isn't exactly shattering the earth.

a typical Spurs move could be Joe Smith. very unlikely that he is in the Thunders long term plans, his contract is expiring anyhow. a package of players plus some 2nd rounders (Gist rights?) might get it done. (Thunder might even have some use for Fab or Matt). Fab+Ime+2nd rounder? not that Smith would be a huge upgrade, but a small upgrade for sure.
more attractive would be a trade for another OKC player, Nick Collison, who I think would be a great fit, but who struggles this season. the Thunder might think about dumping his contract. the problem is, if they put him on the market, they will get better offers. (Bulls reportedly were interested this summer). but it is still worth a call IMO.

[TJastal]

The guy I'd love to see play more is Tolliver, he has some potential to grow, all he has to do is become a little more selective with his shot making, but he's shown he can be a great passer and also a solid all around player.

Is he good enough to start alongside Duncan? That remains to be seen, but I think he has the potential to be that type of player.

Bonner is a good player too when he's playing confidently, but his ceiling is lower, I think the best role for him at this point will be as a backup.

[mrspurs]

The Spurs bigman suck period. They play like girls(fab) and are to old and small(kurt). And its not our job to find their replacements. Its the FOs job. And theyve done a poor job of finding bigs. And its the biggest reason why we got thrown out of the POs last season. Biggest reason why we may barely make the POs this season. And if we go into the POs with these bigs. We will be thrown out quite quickly this season. And the NBA knows it.

[SenorSpur]

The Spurs bigman suck period. They play like girls(fab) and are to old and small(kurt). And its not our job to find their replacements. Its the FOs job. And theyve done a poor job of finding bigs. And its the biggest reason why we got thrown out of the POs last season. Biggest reason why we may barely make the POs this season. And if we go into the POs with these bigs. We will be thrown out quite quickly this season. And the NBA knows it.

Besides Duncan, there is no one else on the frontline that strikes any fear in the hearts of opponents. The only big that has even come close to playing a supporting role is Bonner. He's doing the best he can with streaky shooting, pure hustle and energy. He just doesn't have many tools in his tool box. Who would've thought last year that Bonner would've surpassed both KT and Fab in the rotation.

Ian's injury has probably been the biggest disappointment o the team, thus far. It's painful to watch Duncan having to virtually carry the load on both ends with very little frontline support. At his age, he needs more relief, not more responsibility. This was very apparent during last year's playoffs.

[Dex]

Go after Tyrus Thomas with what? Just because a team might appear to not want a player on their roster, it doesn't automatically mean they'll just give that player away. What can the Spurs offer to get him? And, please no more of this Jacque Vaughn and Matt Bonner or Ime Udoka bullshit. Yes, I know, likely invariably someone will post it anyway.

Will you consider if we include all three? :bike:

We'll throw in Blake Ahearn, too.

[dbestpro]

The guy I'd love to see play more is Tolliver, he has some potential to grow, all he has to do is become a little more selective with his shot making, but he's shown he can be a great passer and also a solid all around player.

Is he good enough to start alongside Duncan? That remains to be seen, but I think he has the potential to be that type of player.

Bonner is a good player too when he's playing confidently, but his ceiling is lower, I think the best role for him at this point will be as a backup.

Looks like you got your wish. Tolliver is going to get a bunch more playing time,.............. in Austin.

[Bruno]

Thee are some basic points to look at when you consider trades :

First, lateral moves. If Spurs do a trade that impacts them, it can't be a lateral move. The new player should be able to help more Spurs than what Spurs currently have that is to say he must be good and fits well with the team. And despite what some people thinks, every single NBA big isn't better than Oberto, Thomas or Bonner.

Second, keeping it realistic. Other teams won't make gifts to Spurs. Spurs don't have tons of good trading assets.

Third, the 2010 plan. If you trade for a player with a post 2010 contract, this player should be worth the capspace he will take in 2010.


When you consider these three factors, it's damn hard for Spurs to do a trade for a big. Available players with a short term contracts will result in a lateral move. Available players with a long term contract are too marginal to eat some 2010 cap space. Right now, I haven't read a poster on ST with a trade proposal that is both realistic and good for Spurs. Nick Collison is maybe the most interesting idea in this thread but he will eat too much capspace in 2010.

[#2!]

Well I've got nothing new to offer as far as this season goes, but I think that next preseason we will be seeing Tolliver and James Gist battling it out for the "Malik" spot, much like we saw Farmer and Salim fighting over the newly invented "Eddie House" role...

except hopefully it'll actually amount to something in the season

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Reading your objective assessment of the Spurs, I'm surprised they've been able to win any games at all, never mind actual championships. It appears the Suns have gotten in your eyes and you ain't seeing too clearly.

Like I said the Malik player wasn't needed in 2005 or 2007, and Popovich probably knew that in 2005 and know Nazr would do a lot more against the Suns than Malik, but in 2006 I think they kill the Mavs with Malik and in 2008 with a healthy Manu and a Malik type player they probably beat LA. If the Suns had clouded my view, I would tell you the Spurs don't have an overrated power forward who whines about not taking enough shots and says he is as good as Dwight Howard but doesn't rebound or play defense, and that every team needs that kind of cancer in their locker room (if you ever need that player though I think the Suns' "fan" base be more than down with Duncan 4 Amare :lmao)


My beginning post was probably a little (ok it was really really) redundant, but I just thought having a guy like Malik or Scola was something that was getting talked about more and more and could use it's own thread.


In regards to Ty Thomas, I have no idea what Chicago wants for him, if they do want a 1st round pick for him then HELL NO should any team trade for him. There is a short list of players who fit the need and have a contract short and cheap enough, but if anyone can find that player it's RC or Pop.

[dbestpro]

He's 32 years old, has a career average of 8 ppg and 7 rpg per while averaging 20 mpg.
He's physical can score on the block and opposing big men hate playing against him as he is an enforcer type. He has a 79% career FT average and is currently healthy, 6-8 and 260 lbs and can be had as a free agent. Would you want him? Would you consider him? Oh yeah, his name is Danny Fortson.

[xtremesteven33]

Ive been saying it for awhile now. Mourning and Mutombo are still FA's and my guess is they look to give valuable minutes for strictly defense and rebounding.

Both want to play for a contender and both are more than capable defenders for playing 15-20 minutes a night.

we have the money to offer them and the playing time.

[Spur-Addict]

Ive been saying it for awhile now. Mourning and Mutombo are still FA's and my guess is they look to give valuable minutes for strictly defense and rebounding.

Both want to play for a contender and both are more than capable defenders for playing 15-20 minutes a night.

we have the money to offer them and the playing time.

I wouldn't mind Mourning at all. I really don't need to list the reasons for it. They are pretty obvious.

[superbigtime]

Brad Miller is disgruntled in Sacramento. The team is turning to Spencer Hawes and is taking more of his minutes. His contract expires after next year. He can pass, defend, shoot, and play hard and mean. He would be a great compliment to Tim. Sacramento is struggling and just may be stupid enough to take JV for his great working history with Beno, Kurt Thomas as an upgrade to Kenny Thomas, and Bonner for some improved shooting for their team. Add a pick or some dough and get it done.

[mrspurs]

I wouldn't mind Mourning at all. I really don't need to list the reasons for it. They are pretty obvious.

Id have to agree, I used to think guys like Mutumbo, Camby and Mourning got to much credit for just staying inside standing there waiting for someone to come and block they're shots.(Drob had the full game back in the days). And now I look at our clubs big who stay inside and do nada. Poor rebounders, poor shotblockers, and poor scorers. Mourning wouldnt be as easy to drive in and dunk on like Fab or Kurt. Last season in the POs defending Timmy was basically 2 7fters raising their hands. And that was more then enough to deter Timmys shot. And it kept most of the other bigs guarding Tim out of foul trouble as well. The only thing is this. Like the Celtics did with PJ Brown, bringing him in towards the end of the season. I dont think our Spurs can wait that long. We need the help right now. And Im not sure these bigs we're talking about are ready to play right now. Someone said it earlier, in a few words or more. This may be the bigs we're stuck with. There might not be any other bigs who would come in and help right now better then Fab and Kurt. Unless we let go of one of our Big 3. Either way, Ill be there. Just wish I could get into Hockey like Basketball.