Cardinals acquire Khalil Greene from Padres

[T Park]

For two minor league relievers.

Seems a salary dump. IMO, great trade for the Cardinals.

This is a guy two years ago when healthy had 27 and 94 at Petco park which is a hitting nightmare for a ballpark.

Good trade Mo :tu

[Reggie Miller]

His line last year was worse than Ronny Cedeno's. He was hurt? I didn't know, and I kind of wondered why he had sucked so badly last year.

[T Park]

He was hurt on and off quite a bit and missed the last month of the season with a broken hand.

[K-State Spur]

He sucked last year when he was healthy.

His CAREER on-base percentage is only .304.

They better hope he approaches 30 HRs again, because he needs to put up those kind of power numbers just to be a league average offensive player overall.

[JamStone]

Good move by the Cards. I think his great season a few years ago might be more of an aberration than a good gauge of what he's capable of. The guy tries to be a home run hitter but he certainly doesn't have the look of one. Solid in the field, but offensively not great, even if he is healthy this year. But, he should be an upgrade over Cesar Izturis and Brendan Ryan.

[FromWayDowntown]

I've never been sold on Greene and find it interesting to read someone like Rob Neyer suggest that this is a good bargain pick-up for the Cards. I'll admit that Greene showed some power at times in a notoriously pitcher-friendly park like Petco. But he doesn't do much offensively if he doesn't hit for power -- he doesn't really drive in runs or get on base, and he doesn't steal bases when he does manage to get on -- and he's a pretty average fielder, too.

With all of that, he seems to be a pretty significant departure from the usual sort of player that LaRussa loves and I'd be shocked if LaRussa can make him into such a player at this point.

[MajorMike]

Regardless of his line, the obvious 'youth with potential' movement that the Cards have been on shows promise. Definite upgrade over last year. I had hoped that Renteria was going to resign with them but he decided on the Giants, instead. I like the move better than signing a re-tread SS, as that was one of our major holes. He just needs to get on base ahead of Phat Al or Ludwick. The Cards have made some pretty decent hitters out of nobodies, much the same as they do with pitchers.

[Reggie Miller]

I've never been sold on Greene and find it interesting to read someone like Rob Neyer suggest that this is a good bargain pick-up for the Cards. I'll admit that Greene showed some power at times in a notoriously pitcher-friendly park like Petco. But he doesn't do much offensively if he doesn't hit for power -- he doesn't really drive in runs or get on base, and he doesn't steal bases when he does manage to get on -- and he's a pretty average fielder, too.

With all of that, he seems to be a pretty significant departure from the usual sort of player that LaRussa loves and I'd be shocked if LaRussa can make him into such a player at this point.

The numbers don't lie.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/greenkh01.shtml


Last year, Greene stuck out 100 times in 105 games. He only walked 22 times (1 IBB). OPS+ was 64!

[MajorMike]

Longoria had 122 SO in 122 games and only 46 BB (4 IBB).

[Reggie Miller]

Longoria had 122 SO in 122 games and only 46 BB (4 IBB).

Longoria covered a variety of sins by having decent power:
27 HR, .531 SLG, and 125 OPS+.

In contrast, Greene wasn't hitting for power, either.
10 HR, .339 SLG, and 64 OPS+.


Also, Greene played in the weakest division in baseball, while Longoria played in the first or second strongest division.

[Reggie Miller]

Regardless of his line, the obvious 'youth with potential' movement that the Cards have been on shows promise. Definite upgrade over last year. I had hoped that Renteria was going to resign with them but he decided on the Giants, instead. I like the move better than signing a re-tread SS, as that was one of our major holes. He just needs to get on base ahead of Phat Al or Ludwick. The Cards have made some pretty decent hitters out of nobodies, much the same as they do with pitchers.

Renteria is a defensive liability at SS these days. Last year for Detroit he posted a 4.31 range factor (about average and a slight improvement over 2007 Atlanta). However, his 16 errors dropped his fielding percentage to .972, or five points under his mark from last year. He's in his decline phase, so I would consider him a better bet as a bench player or a 2B.

[AFBlue]

Longoria had 122 SO in 122 games and only 46 BB (4 IBB).

And Longoria was a rookie that spent less than two years in pro-ball before making his debut with the big club....goes to relative inexperience. He'll learn to hit/lay off the outside breaking stuff.

Greene, however, has been in the pros since 2004 and his plate discipline has never been good.

Bad comparison.

[AFBlue]

I will say this though, it fills a hole and they've got the money to risk it.

I don't peg Greene as a guy that will hit over 20HRs on a yearly basis, but he should be good enough to maintain at the position. Besides, when did teams start relying on the SS for major production?

[K-State Spur]

He just needs to get on base ahead of Phat Al or Ludwick.

Well, if that's what they signed him for, they're going to be terribly disappointed. Even when he's going good, he's one of the worst on-base guys in all baseball. When, he's not going good, well he is THE worst.

But as it is, I think the Cards just view him as a one year stop gap (his contract's up after this season) that they'll hit at the bottom of the order. And if he rebounds to have a solid year where they want to re-sign him - then that's a nice problem to have.

I have my doubts that he'll actually prove to be an upgrade over Izturis - but I can understand the thinking.

[K-State Spur]

Longoria had 122 SO in 122 games and only 46 BB (4 IBB).

That actually translates to 60 walks over a season & he had a .343 OBP - that's not great, but it's not terrible.

There is also reason to believe that Longoria will greatly improve on that as he was a good on-base guy in the minors: .402 in A+ in 2006; .403 in AA in 2007, .398 in AAA in 2007.

[MajorMike]

Point is you can't select a random stat to show how poor someone was and not let it be applied to someone else in the same manner.

[K-State Spur]

Point is you can't select a random stat to show how poor someone was and not let it be applied to someone else in the same manner.

I'll agree with you on strikeouts. But Longoria's walk rate was mediocre and he's just a rookie with a good track record for that stat in the minors. Greene has proven over the course of his career that he's terrible at getting a free pass.

[Fabbs]

Agree TPark, this is a great trade and it would not surprise me to see Greens bat revitalized in St Louis. Padres are a loser organization all the way. Owner was and is a greedy lying sack of crap who assembled the World Series team for the sole purpose of scamming the public for a taxpayer paid stadium. He got it.

KState you are too focused on stats. Look up what Willie Williams did for the Pads vs becoming a Cardinal.

For the love of.....see what the Cards did with Jeff Weaver before and after.:downspin::toast:toast:toast

Cards are a first class organization.

[djohn14]

Oh yeah?...Well the Braves got Javier Vasquez!

[MajorMike]

I'll agree with you on strikeouts. But Longoria's walk rate was mediocre and he's just a rookie with a good track record for that stat in the minors. Greene has proven over the course of his career that he's terrible at getting a free pass.

Actually, discounting last year, when he was injured, Greene has fairly decent line for a career. He don't walk much, yeah yeah I get it. He strikes out 1 per game, I get it. I also get that every year but last year he had over 100 hits (and he was less than 20 short last year missing 60 games). He has a career OPS of 95 which is better than Eckstein (88) & Izturis (67), plus one behind Renteria, Drew and Furcal (96).

In your quick haste as a scrubs fan (enjoying that 100-year anniversary?) to continually bash all that is St. Louis, you continually miss the point (please read slowly):
He
is
no
all
star
but
he
is
an
upgrade

[K-State Spur]

In your quick haste as a scrubs fan (enjoying that 100-year anniversary?) to continually bash all that is St. Louis, you continually miss the point (please read slowly):
He
is
no
all
star
but
he
is
an
upgrade



But as it is, I think the Cards just view him as a one year stop gap (his contract's up after this season) that they'll hit at the bottom of the order. And if he rebounds to have a solid year where they want to re-sign him - then that's a nice problem to have.

Don't bother to read my entire post or anything like that.

By the way, you don't have to read too many of my posts on this board to know that I'm an O's fan (yes, yes, more pathetic than the Cubs) - and don't give a scheiss about the northsiders.

That's right, it's possible (just possible) that someone can analyze a Cardinal move and not see it as the end-all-be-all without being a Cubs fan.

[Reggie Miller]

Point is you can't select a random stat to show how poor someone was and not let it be applied to someone else in the same manner.

I posted his Ks, BBs, and OPS+

How is that a (as in singular) statistic? Combined, that shows no hitting for average, no hitting for power, and no ability to get on base.

Not everything the almighty Cardinals do is brilliant.

EDIT: To be fair, the SS FA market is about the worst in recent memory. If the UZR fielding metrics are for real, then Cabrera is probably the best player available, not Furcal.

[MajorMike]

Except Cabrera turned us down when Edgar left and Furcal is on the downswing when the Cards have been deciding to go young.

[T Park]

Its still a good trade.

This kid is two years removed from a 30 homer 100 RBI year.

Hes a damn good defensive fielder as well.

He will bat in the 6th or 7th spot and just be looked upon to drive in Pujols, Ludwick, and Glaus.

[Reggie Miller]

Its still a good trade.

This kid is two years removed from a 30 homer 100 RBI year.

Hes a damn good defensive fielder as well.

He will bat in the 6th or 7th spot and just be looked upon to drive in Pujols, Ludwick, and Glaus.


For a team that acknowledged it had a PED problem due to the proximity to steroids in Tijuana. Since that season, Greene has shown no real likelihood of duplicating that feat. Hmm, I wonder why?

There are guys who have been entirely out of baseball two years after posting numbers like that.

It's only a good trade because the alternatives were worse. It wasn't a good trade in an absolute sense.

[T Park]

For a team that acknowledged it had a PED problem due to the proximity to steroids in Tijuana. Since that season, Greene has shown no real likelihood of duplicating that feat. Hmm, I wonder why?

There are guys who have been entirely out of baseball two years after posting numbers like that.

It's only a good trade because the alternatives were worse. It wasn't a good trade in an absolute sense.


:lmao

So whys Adrian Gonzalez still hitting well?

Green had an off year then got hurt in July.


Talk about reaching to hate on a Cardinal.

[Reggie Miller]

:lmao

So whys Adrian Gonzalez still hitting well?

Green had an off year then got hurt in July.


Talk about reaching to hate on a Cardinal.


Talk about deluding yourself because your team picks a guy up...

First off, Greene HAS NEVER HAD a 30 HR, 100 RBI season. Nice try to prop up your rose-tinted worldview with complete bullshit. 27 HR and 97 RBI was close, but no cigar. Even then, Greene's 2007 season was an anomaly.

Again, a one year power anomaly probably indicates either:
1) An inexplicable, random anomaly; or
2) PED use, since discontinued.
Couple this with being on one of the teams to acknowledge that it had a serious PED problem. I hope for his sake he didn't take steroids in 2007.

I apologize. Clearly, Greene will be the greatest St. Louis SS since Ozzie Smith. All hail the conquering whitey!

[K-State Spur]

For a team that acknowledged it had a PED problem due to the proximity to steroids in Tijuana. Since that season, Greene has shown no real likelihood of duplicating that feat. Hmm, I wonder why?

There are guys who have been entirely out of baseball two years after posting numbers like that.

It's only a good trade because the alternatives were worse. It wasn't a good trade in an absolute sense.

it's possible, but there were anomalous power surges before the PED era as well. davey johnson hit 43 HRs in 1973, his next highest was 18.

so it's not really fair to just make that blanket assumption. greene did post some nice doubles totals in his first 2 season, and (historically) young guys who hit doubles often develop some level of power later.

Personally, I think the Cards will get 15ish HRs with an OPS around .680-.700. If they feel that's an upgrade over Izturis - more power to them. With the drop-off in defense (even if it's not substantial) - I'm not so sure. (and if they hit him in front of Pujols, Albert will set a career low for RBIs.)

For $5 million more than Izturis is making this year - I wouldn't have done it. But Greene does have the higher ceiling of the two, no doubt about that.

[Reggie Miller]

it's possible, but there were anomalous power surges before the PED era as well. davey johnson hit 43 HRs in 1973, his next highest was 18.

so it's not really fair to just make that blanket assumption. greene did post some nice doubles totals in his first 2 season, and (historically) young guys who hit doubles often develop some level of power later.

Personally, I think the Cards will get 15ish HRs with an OPS around .680-.700. If they feel that's an upgrade over Izturis - more power to them. With the drop-off in defense (even if it's not substantial) - I'm not so sure. (and if they hit him in front of Pujols, Albert will set a career low for RBIs.)

For $5 million more than Izturis is making this year - I wouldn't have done it. But Greene does have the higher ceiling of the two, no doubt about that.

A couple of quick points.

As I pointed out above, there are random power surges. I hope for his own sake and health that Greene never took PEDs.

My point was quite simple. It may be more realistic to think that Greene will never duplicate his 2007 season, rather than thinking 2008 was some sort of total aberration...

Like I said, it may not have been a bad deal in light of what was available, but signing Greene doesn't exacty equate to more wins in 2009.

[T Park]

it's possible, but there were anomalous power surges before the PED era as well. davey johnson hit 43 HRs in 1973, his next highest was 18.

so it's not really fair to just make that blanket assumption. greene did post some nice doubles totals in his first 2 season, and (historically) young guys who hit doubles often develop some level of power later.

Personally, I think the Cards will get 15ish HRs with an OPS around .680-.700. If they feel that's an upgrade over Izturis - more power to them. With the drop-off in defense (even if it's not substantial) - I'm not so sure. (and if they hit him in front of Pujols, Albert will set a career low for RBIs.)

For $5 million more than Izturis is making this year - I wouldn't have done it. But Greene does have the higher ceiling of the two, no doubt about that.

Izturis couldn't hit his way out of a damn paper bag.

Green will hit in the 6th or 7th spot, the top two spots is reserved for Rasmus and either Kennedy or Schumacher.

Green's defense also won't be a significant drop either, hes a damn good defensive shortstop.

So it was a no brainer getting this guy for free practically, Green I think will have a fresh start, and if he busts his but, he will get a new contract for about a year or two till Tyler Green is ready to come up

[K-State Spur]

Izturis couldn't hit his way out of a damn paper bag...
So it was a no brainer getting this guy for free practically, Green I think will have a fresh start, and if he busts his but, he will get a new contract for about a year or two till Tyler Green is ready to come up

He was better than Greene last year.

And you're not getting him for free - you (not personally) are paying him $9 million. His contract is why the Pads were looking to give him away.

[Reggie Miller]

He was better than Greene last year.

And you're not getting him for free - you (not personally) are paying him $9 million His contract is why the Pads were looking to give him away.

DING-DING!

K-State advances to the bonus round.

TOPICS (Your choice): Why Abreu isn't worth offering arbitration; OR
Why Peavy will eventually be traded to the Cubs.