Ginobili: Where Does He Rank Among SG's?

[galvatron3000]

I Kobe is the best shooting guard in the league then tell me where does Manu rank and what doesn't he do that all the others do, including Kobe?

I'd like to get the assessments from everyone about this because I think he ranks very high because of the things he does and is capable of doing.

[timtonymanu]

i say it's a battle for the 3rd spot between him and T-Mac.

[angelbelow]

i think ginobili is 2a when fully healthy. wade is 2b. thats just my opinion.

[Frenchise player]

Ginobili is very different from the other good SG in the league.
He plays less minutes and doesn't have the ball as much because he has to share with Tim and Tp.

I would rank him third in pure ability behind Kobe and Wade but there are several other SG who mean more to their team: Roy, Johnson or Carter and Martin are guys who really carry their teams.

[mystargtr34]

1. Wade
2. Kobe
---------
3. Manu
4. Johnson
5. Roy

T Mac is injured too much, and he sux now days when hes not anyway.

I think Wade is better than Kobe, shoots a much better percentage, better playmaker and finisher at the rim.

[galvatron3000]

Yeah but what does he do that other don't and vice versa?

He's my assessment but not my ranking:

Manu can take you off the dribble
He creates offense for others
He can shoot the mid range and the 3 consistently
He can pass
He is a solid defender
Manu attacks the rim drawing fouls and shoots the free throw well
He's clutch
He is better the last 2 to 5 minutes of the game
He's fearless
He's a true competitor
He bring intangibles that stats don't show
He commands a double team or you'll pay

[galvatron3000]

well,Wade and Kobe are a litle more athletics and strong as Manu is.
I think that the Edge Kobe and Wade have over Manu.

ok, but what does their athleticism give them that Manu doesn't get from his?

[tav1]

Kobe
Wade
Ginobili

[mystargtr34]

I think Kobe and Wade obviously have physical gifts that Manu doesnt, which gives them a pretty sizeable advantage. Theyre both every bit as skilled as Manu aswell.

To me though Manu is number 3.

[endrity]

I am not saying he is better than Manu, but people tend to underrate Joe Johnson a lot. The guy has developed a lot since he left Phoenix.

[timtonymanu]

according to Van Gundy and Mark Jackson.

Van Gundy: Kobe, Wade, T-Mac
Jackson: Kobe, Wade, Roy

Jackson points out that he didn't pick Ginobili or T-Mac because they're a thing of the past and they're not healthy.

[mystargtr34]

T-Mac at number 3 is a joke. Who cares what he done when he was healthy, thats a guy thats never gonna get back to that 32-6-5 we saw in 2003 - his body is no onger capable of that.

Last week one of them had Manu at 3, they change every week.

[tav1]

the deference maker is that Kobe and Wade are AfroAmericans(and I mean it in a good way)while Manu is Spanish/Italian.
Black ppl are always more physical gifted tham the rest(white,spanish,Asians,Etc)

this is just a stupid, unnecessary distinction

[JamStone]

1. Kobe
2. Wade
3. T-Mac (if healthy)
4. Joe Johnson
5. Manu (if healthy)

If you argue for a fully healthy Manu, you do the same for T-Mac. I more of a fan of Manu than T-Mac, but T-Mac is the better player if both are healthy. People can argue about choking and winning in the playoffs, and I would agree to a certain extent. I'd say Manu is easily more of a winner than T-Mac. But, T-Mac is still the better player.

[galvatron3000]

I think Kobe and Wade obviously have physical gifts that Manu doesnt, which gives them a pretty sizeable advantage. Theyre both every bit as skilled as Manu aswell.

To me though Manu is number 3.

what advantage on the court are you referring too?

[JamStone]

Kobe
Brandon Roy
Rudy Fernandez
Nate McMillan
Martell Webster

[mystargtr34]

what advantage on the court are you referring too?

Stength, athleticism and durability

[tav1]

what?
saying that Black ppl are a better race physical wise is a racist statment?
Dude, I'm saying that they're better athlets tham anybody else in the world.WTF?
You ppl are too sensitive.

Why do you think I thought it was a racist statement? Strange.

[Warlord23]

T-Mac doesn't make the top 5 in my book. It's all coulda shoulda woulda with T-Mac. How does "if healthy" matter if you can't recall when he last had a fully healthy season.

That's like Kill Bill Pana talking about some great Greek guard who won't ever see the NBA. Nobody can prove or disprove that assertion. Same goes for T-Mac - he's almost never there when it matters.

Also, Manu > T-Mac. Even the clutchfans board admits it by and large

[Deimosfobos]

i say it's a battle for the 3rd spot between him and T-Mac.

T-Mac is a joke, a proven loser. Sure, he has the skills, but he brings teams down... Manu + Houston team - T-Mac = Real Championship contender.

I would honestly turn down T-mac even if we could get him for free, he is like a disease.

[InK]

what advantage on the court are you referring too?

Wdf do u think he can be reffering to? When they jump their feet are higher from the ground then Manu's, when they run their feet move faster then Manu's. Something like that.

[galvatron3000]

Stength, athleticism and durability


Again, what I am asking is with these advantages, how do they use them on the court to differ or elavate their game by doing what Manu can't. If they are more athletic, etc ,etc what are they doing that Manu ccan't or doesn't?

[galvatron3000]

Wdf do u think he can be reffering to? When they jump their feet are higher from the ground then Manu's, when they run their feet move faster then Manu's. Something like that.

So, they move faster and jump higher so what does that translate to them being better than Manu, do they get to the rim and Manu doesn't? How is this an advantage over Manu because if it's an advantage it must mean Manu can't or he can't consistently so is that a bit clearer cause I'm having a serious discussion not young boy talk

[mystargtr34]

1. Kobe
2. Wade
3. T-Mac (if healthy)
4. Joe Johnson
5. Manu (if healthy)

If you argue for a fully healthy Manu, you do the same for T-Mac. I more of a fan of Manu than T-Mac, but T-Mac is the better player if both are healthy. People can argue about choking and winning in the playoffs, and I would agree to a certain extent. I'd say Manu is easily more of a winner than T-Mac. But, T-Mac is still the better player.

First of all, i would say a prime T-Mac was better than Kobe AND Wade, he was right there with them. But that T-Mac is long gone, and his body is so broken i think its impossible, based on evidence since then from a 'healthy' T-Mac.

T-Mac's injuries are completely different to Manu. Manu had a one off injury, T-mac has had constant injuries for the past 4 seasons.

Mcgrady last 3 seasons

Games Played
47
71
66

FG %
.406
.431
.419



Manu last 3 seasons

Games played
65
74
76

FG%
.462
.464
.461

[Frenchise player]

You can't assume a healthy T mac because we haven't seen one in three seasons.
Manu was healthy last year and was dominating the league.


really?
So thell me,if Manu aint that important to SA why didnt we beat the Lakers in the WCFs last season when He got hurt?
Manu is as important to the Spurs as it is Wade to the Heats and Kobe to the Lakers.
The thing is that the spurs dont depend only on him,we still got TD and TP,but we need the 3 of them to make it happen.
No manu:No championships for the spurs,and the same goes for TD and TP,without any of them we got 0 chances.

Can you really assume that we would beat the Lakers with a healthy Manu?
I understand that you make the point that the Spurs won't win a championship without Manu and the same would apply to Kobe and Wade but no they don't have the same importance to each of their team.

Kobe and Wade are the first option in each of their teams (the same goes for Roy and Johnson), the Spurs are build around Duncan, he is the franchise player.
Manu is vital for the Spurs championship hopes but he is not in that category.

[InK]

That's like Kill Bill Pana talking about some great Greek guard who won't ever see the NBA. Nobody can prove or disprove that assertion. Same goes for T-Mac - he's almost never there when it matters.

On that note:
1.)Spanoulis ( styupid american fans only care about about jumping, passing, shooting, dunking, running, defense, offense, and know nothing about what basketball is really about. Me and V-span know, but u wouldnt understand, so i wont tell )
2.) Kobe
3.) Wade
4.) Roy
5.)Manu ( casue he might know as well)

[mystargtr34]

Again, what I am asking is with these advantages, how do they use them on the court to differ or elavate their game by doing what Manu can't. If they are more athletic, etc ,etc what are they doing that Manu ccan't or doesn't?

Finishing better at the rim, with contact.

Bein able to post up opposing guards.

[tav1]

So explain to me what this mean though: this is just a stupid, unnecessary distinction.

that it was a stupid (meaning not intelligent) and unnecessary (meaning not needed) distinction.

When you immediately protest with "I'm not a racist" when you haven't been accused of racism is a little like responding to a police officer's "hello" by saying "the bodies are not buried in the backyard."

You can have the last word.

[galvatron3000]

Finishing better at the rim, with contact.

Bein able to post up opposing guards.

Finally, now you getting to the meat. That's a clear advantage but I think Ginobili finishes at the rim strong when he attacks or atleast get the and 1 but he doesn't post up. Does Wade post up?

[InK]

that was racist and stupid, and an unnecessary distinction.
see the diference now?
You're actually offending ppl when you say that, I wasn't.
And that's my last word on this subjet.

Leave me out of you getting nailed minithread.

[galvatron3000]

can We Stick To The Topic

[m33p0]

There were certain nights last season when Manu was the best player on the planet.

[Deimosfobos]

There were certain nights last season when Manu was the best player on the planet.

Hope those nights return for the tittle run...

[galvatron3000]

Well in the final minutes of any game but especially an important one, I would take Ginobili or Kobe over most anyone to have the ball in their hands to create or shoot

[BlackBellamy]

Wdf do u think he can be reffering to? When they jump their feet are higher from the ground then Manu's, when they run their feet move faster then Manu's. Something like that.

No one is doubting you with your jumping statement. Running, however, I think you're a bit off base. The slashing and weaving in traffic on Manu's part is extremely fast and his sprints to contest open drives are at a young point guard's speed when he needs to be. Admittedly, he had lost a step while injured last year and somewhat in his early sea-legs play, but I mean, it's not like Kobe's running on a 20 year old's legs either. Let's give Manu his due. Still the list stands...
Kobe
Wade
Manu
Roy
T-Mac

[JamStone]

First of all, i would say a prime T-Mac was better than Kobe AND Wade, he was right there with them. But that T-Mac is long gone, and his body is so broken i think its impossible, based on evidence since then from a 'healthy' T-Mac.

T-Mac's injuries are completely different to Manu. Manu had a one off injury, T-mac has had constant injuries for the past 4 seasons.

Mcgrady last 3 seasons

Games Played
47
71
66

FG %
.406
.431
.419



Manu last 3 seasons

Games played
65
74
76

FG%
.462
.464
.461

Your games played for Manu demonstrate the opposite of your argument. Manu hasn't had the extent of injuries T-Mac has had, but he's had his share, missing his share of games over three years. It's not like he's playing 80 games a season. And, that's even with Pop monitoring and regulating his minutes to avoid injury. I would agree that T-Mac is "more" injury prone than Manu, but that doesn't mean Manu is durable. He hasn't been either. And, it hasn't been just "one" off injury.

I'm a huge fan of Manu Ginobili. But, you just can't make the injury argument against T-Mac and not do the same for Manu.

[galvatron3000]

Your games played for Manu demonstrate the opposite of your argument. Manu hasn't had the extent of injuries T-Mac has had, but he's had his share, missing his share of games over three years. It's not like he's playing 80 games a season. And, that's even with Pop monitoring and regulating his minutes to avoid injury. I would agree that T-Mac is "more" injury prone than Manu, but that doesn't mean Manu is durable. He hasn't been either. And, it hasn't been just "one" off injury.

I'm a huge fan of Manu Ginobili. But, you just can't make the injury argument against T-Mac and not do the same for Manu.



74 and 76 are pretty good for an 82 game season. He's pretty durable not the most durable but better than T MAc. T MAc's body is damaged goods and you can make that assessment against Manu. Manu is there when it counts. Some of those games are probably Spurs taking pecautions too. The guy was on a run with playoffs and international play. Lot of games.

[mystargtr34]

Your games played for Manu demonstrate the opposite of your argument. Manu hasn't had the extent of injuries T-Mac has had, but he's had his share, missing his share of games over three years. It's not like he's playing 80 games a season. And, that's even with Pop monitoring and regulating his minutes to avoid injury. I would agree that T-Mac is "more" injury prone than Manu, but that doesn't mean Manu is durable. He hasn't been either. And, it hasn't been just "one" off injury.

I'm a huge fan of Manu Ginobili. But, you just can't make the injury argument against T-Mac and not do the same for Manu.

That Manu has played about 75 more games including playoffs over the last 3 years? Thats quite a telling number if you ask me.

[Solid D]

Manu is one of the best all-around basketball players, competitors, and winners of all time. He doesn't rank as high as Jordan but he does rank in the same circle with John Havlicek, one of my all-time favorite players.

In today's basketball class, Kobe Bryant and Dwyane Wade rank higher but after them, there aren't any players who have the over-all game as a playmaker guard (than Manu).

His flare, creativity and passing are in the Cousy, Maravich, Bird and Magic class. He's not just a modern-day great player. He's an all-time great player in the world.

[BlackBellamy]

That Manu has played about 75 more games including playoffs over the last 3 years? Thats quite a telling number if you ask me.

Seems hardly fair if you're including playoffs. Hey-Hey-Hey!

[InK]

The point Jam seemingly tried to make; If you got 2 players, both of them injured to some degree, deeming one healthy and the other not is unreasonable. Kinda seems like a no brainer.

I would take healthy manu over healthy tmac however, and an injured manu over injured tmac. Hell, id take injured manu over healthy tmac probably.

In "clutchfans" atm: "Is the 2008-09 season a make-or-break season for Tracy McGrady in Houston?" 85% of the fans there answering- yes.

[InK]

And durability questions are beeing asked more due to the limited minutes Manu plays then the few games per year that he misses, right?

[JamStone]

Interesting stat that reflex who stays healthier throw the season
Last three seasons
Manu: 214 reg season's games played
Kobe: 239 reg.season's games played
Wade: 177 reg.season's games played
T-mac: 184 reg.season's games played.

even though the media keeps saying how fragile Manu is, He's among the players in his possition(SG) with more reg.season's games played in the last 3 seasons.

Good call Mark Jackson and Co.

Is Man really among the players at his position with more regular season games played in the last 3 seasons.

2-guards that have played more regular season games than Ginobili in the combined three previous seasons:

DeShawn Stevenson, Mike Dunleavy, Jason Terry, Andre Iguodala, Vince Carter (yes, Vince Carter), Ben Gordon, Raja Bell, Stephen Jackson, Rip Hamilton, Joe Johnson, Allen Iverson.

Those are regular starting 2-guards or like Manu, 2-guards that play starter minutes (Ben Gordon). And, those are just the ones I looked up.

[JamStone]

I would take healthy manu over healthy tmac however, and an injured manu over injured tmac. Hell, id take injured manu over healthy tmac probably.



I would too, based on heart, selflessness, and will to win. But, not based on talent.

[BlackBellamy]

Is Man really among the players at his position with more regular season games played in the last 3 seasons.

2-guards that have played more regular season games than Ginobili in the combined three previous seasons:

DeShawn Stevenson, Mike Dunleavy, Jason Terry, Andre Iguodala, Vince Carter (yes, Vince Carter), Ben Gordon, Raja Bell, Stephen Jackson, Rip Hamilton, Joe Johnson, Allen Iverson.

Those are regular starting 2-guards or like Manu, 2-guards that play starter minutes (Ben Gordon). And, those are just the ones I looked up.

This is a little off point, but the beauty in Manu's game comes from alot of places. Really in taking into account his over-all relevancy one cannot look to his mpg or scoring average, it's his points per minute and shooting percentage (not to mention the defensive end). Of which he has all over T-mac. In fact, in playing less minutes I'd say it's a wash-out against all the players listed above, save maybe Rip. And that IS based on talent. One fan's opinion.

[Manufan909]

Manu is one of the best all-around basketball players, competitors, and winners of all time. He doesn't rank as high as Jordan but he does rank in the same circle with John Havlicek, one of my all-time favorite players.

In today's basketball class, Kobe Bryant and Dwyane Wade rank higher but after them, there aren't any players who have the over-all game as a playmaker guard (than Manu).

His flare, creativity and passing are in the Cousy, Maravich, Bird and Magic class. He's not just a modern-day great player. He's an all-time great player in the world.

That was so... beautiful."sniff sniff":toast

[peskypesky]

Kobe
Wade
Roy
Manu
Johnson
Allen

[HarlemHeat37]

1. Kobe Bryant
2. Dwyane Wade


3. Brandon Roy..leader of his team, has emerged as one of the more clutch players in the NBA, better defensively IMO..

4. Vince Carter..leader of a good team this season, even more durable than Manu(which is a key factor here), more consistent and has never had the chance to play with a coach of Pop's caliber or a player of Tim/Tony's caliber..

5. Joe Johnson..leader of a good team this season, young with significant upside, solid defensively..

6. Manu Ginobili

McGrady might be ahead of him when he's healthy, I'd have to see what he looks like later on in the season..

[m33p0]

Vince Carter way ahead of Manu? You do realize he's a quitter.

[Obstructed_View]

Manu does more with his talent than almost anyone I've ever seen. If health is not the question, I'd take him over anybody else for his will to win and his clutchness. Guys that sacrifice their bodies like Wade and Manu don't stay healthy or have long careers, but they're the guys you want on your team when it really matters.

[galvatron3000]

Manu does more with his talent than almost anyone I've ever seen. If health is not the question, I'd take him over anybody else for his will to win and his clutchness. Guys that sacrifice their bodies like Wade and Manu don't stay healthy or have long careers, but they're the guys you want on your team when it really matters.

TRUE, I AGREE

[HarlemHeat37]

Vince Carter way ahead of Manu? You do realize he's a quitter.

Vince Carter being a quitter is one of the biggest misconceptions in the NBA..it was created by the Toronto media and Raptor fans, and there's a real story to what actually happened, which I'll share at a later time, since I'm going to sleep right now..

I wouldn't put him "way ahead" of Manu..I don't think there's any separation from #3 to #7, I think you could make a legit argument for any of those guys I listed in any order..

[m33p0]

Winning attitude >>> Talent.

[Obstructed_View]

Vince Carter being a quitter is one of the biggest misconceptions in the NBA..it was created by the Toronto media and Raptor fans, and there's a real story to what actually happened, which I'll share at a later time, since I'm going to sleep right now.

I'm interested in hearing how it explains this:

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q228/GeneralPurpose/Spurstalk/VinceQuit-1.jpg

[Manufan909]

Manu does more with his talent than almost anyone I've ever seen. If health is not the question, I'd take him over anybody else for his will to win and his clutchness. Guys that sacrifice their bodies like Wade and Manu don't stay healthy or have long careers, but they're the guys you want on your team when it really matters.

I'd take Manu too because he's my favorite player of all time, but if I wasn't biased, I'd probably pick Kobe over him.

[DPG21920]

If you look at "clutch" stats, Manu is easily the number 3 player behind kobe and wade. Manu lead the league last year in almost all "clutch" statistical measures.

[Obstructed_View]

I'd take Manu too because he's my favorite player of all time, but if I wasn't biased, I'd probably pick Kobe over him.

Kobe's a talent, there's no doubt about it. As a second fiddle to Duncan, you can't go wrong with Kobe, Wade or Manu.

[TDfan2007]

1) Kobe (no need to explain anything here)
2) DWade (his improved defense added to his already amazing offensive talent gets him this spot)
3) Manu/Joe Johnson (argument can be made for either)
4 and on) who cares?

[roycrikside]

Manu is clearly number 3 here and there is more of an argument to be made for him to be Number 2 than there is for him to be 4th or lower. His postseason resume and overall career accomplishments trump all other NBA SGs except Kobe and Wade. Guys like Joe Johnson, Brandon Roy and T-Mac have no postseason accomplishments. In fact, I'm surprised nobody brought up AI. I'd probably rank him 4th right now.

[TDMVPDPOY]

johnson no way is better than manu

manu has owned his ass back in the days when he was a suns player....

[kace]

It would be very long to bring all the top qualities that manu has so i'll go with manu's weaknesses (i mean compared to some qualities of the very best SG in the league) :

1) injury prone
2) some bad choices and TO
3) not able to play back to the rim
4) lack of athleticism
5) could he be the first option of a contender team
6) only decent in one on one defense (few of the best SG are great at that)

every other things, i mean EVERY others things, he has them in his game. Every SG, even the very best, have also some weaknesses in their game. The only one more all-around than him is probably Kobe.

Manu is that good. and he also has some qualities (smartness, heart, poise, clutch, work ethic, humble but proud) that transcend a player's game, way over the pure basketball skills.

[TDMVPDPOY]

manu has that winning mentality, thats all he needs

which is a requirement when applying for a roster spot on the spurs

[timvp]

When healthy and playing his best, I probably take him over every other shooting guard in the league including Kobe and Wade. The trick is having him healthy and rolling come playoff time. Pop hasn't figured out how to have Manu peak in the playoffs since 2005 :depressed

[Obstructed_View]

When healthy and playing his best, I probably take him over every other shooting guard in the league including Kobe and Wade. The trick is having him healthy and rolling come playoff time. Pop hasn't figured out how to have Manu peak in the playoffs since 2005 :depressed

Manu was pretty damn good against Utah in '07. Nobody on the team was very good after ten days off, but Manu, again, was pretty good in the last quarter of game 4.

[timvp]

Manu was pretty damn good against Utah in '07. Nobody on the team was very good after ten days off, but Manu, again, was pretty good in the last quarter of game 4.No doubt Manu has had great playoff games since 2005. He's probably had his best individual playoff games since then. But 2005 is the only year where you could point to Manu's season and say it peaked in the playoffs.

[Obstructed_View]

No doubt Manu has had great playoff games since 2005. He's probably had his best individual playoff games since then. But 2005 is the only year where you could point to Manu's season and say it peaked in the playoffs.

Yeah I agree with that. I wonder how much of that has to do with Pop putting Manu back into the starting lineup in '05. After watching that Nuggets game, I have to say I missed seeing Manu as a starter.

[diego]

i think the main knock on manu is durability and strength. there are some boneheaded, overambitious plays here and again, but its more the exception than the norm.

manu rebounds and passes extremely well for a guard. How many times have you seen VC, Tmac, JJ, roy, wade, even kobe making those long, deep in the paint bullet passes manu habitually makes?

and what makes him better than carter/johnson/roy/tmac is exactly what makes him (and wade) injury prone- he plays hard, no-regard-for-my-body basketball.


as for the 1st option argument... no team with manu ginobili as the 1st option is going to win a championship. just like VC raps, Tmac's Magic, Johnsons hawks, etc. You need a team with several quality players to be on that level in the NBA; for that reason i have the respect I do for AI, for taking a "weak" team that far (there is another guy that plays with reckless abandon that makes him bigger than his body, and he is actually more durable than wade and manu)

[mystargtr34]

It would be very long to bring all the top qualities that manu has so i'll go with manu's weaknesses (i mean compared to some qualities of the very best SG in the league) :

1) injury prone
2) some bad choices and TO
3) not able to play back to the rim
4) lack of athleticism
5) could he be the first option of a contender team
6) only decent in one on one defense (few of the best SG are great at that)

every other things, i mean EVERY others things, he has them in his game. Every SG, even the very best, have also some weaknesses in their game. The only one more all-around than him is probably Kobe.

Manu is that good. and he also has some qualities (smartness, heart, poise, clutch, work ethic, humble but proud) that transcend a player's game, way over the pure basketball skills.

1) I wouldnt say hes injury prone. Thats a pretty strong word.
2) Wade leads the league in TO's, and has been near the top since he came into the league.
3) Thats one of the detriments of having a slight build, but he has agility that almost no other 6'6" guys have.
4) Manu is extremely athletic, very deceptive. Not Kobe or Wade like athleticism, but its definately a strong point of his game.
5) Probly not. Then again there are very few guys in the league who can call them selves legitimate leaders of a contending team.
6) Hes not the best 1-on-1 defender, but hes active and is a pretty good team defender.

[mystargtr34]

Manu's per-40 minute stats the last 2 seasons

06/07
24.1 PPG
.464%
6.3 RPG
5.1 APG

07/08
25.2 PPG
.464%
6.2 RPG
5.8 APG

This season

26.7 PPG
5.6 RPG
4.3 APG
.540%

Pretty damn impressive. In fact hes been around 20-6-5 since he came into the league. Obviously the knock on him has been his ability to play 40 minutes throughout an 82 game season, but last season he managed 31 per over 75 games.

Given also the Spurs yearly play at the slowest pace in the league, it makes putting up those sorts of numbers is amazing. Hes still way under rated.

You see the type of crazy fantasy stats players put up in run and gun systems like Phoenix and now New York - inflating your numbers like that is impossible in a slow pace.

[kace]

1) I wouldnt say hes injury prone. Thats a pretty strong word.
2) Wade leads the league in TO's, and has been near the top since he came into the league.
3) Thats one of the detriments of having a slight build, but he has agility that almost no other 6'6" guys have.
4) Manu is extremely athletic, very deceptive. Not Kobe or Wade like athleticism, but its definately a strong point of his game.
5) Probly not. Then again there are very few guys in the league who can call them selves legitimate leaders of a contending team.
6) Hes not the best 1-on-1 defender, but hes active and is a pretty good team defender.

of course, when i say lack of athleticism, it's compared to others like kobe or wade (it's what i said at the beginning of my post), which was exactly the point of the thread. but i agree that in manu's case, considering his skinny body, it's deceptive.

so, basically you agree with all the points ;)

[mystargtr34]

of course, when i say lack of athleticism, it's compared to others like kobe or wade (it's what i said at the beginning of my post), which was exactly the point of the thread. but i agree that in manu's case, considering his skinny body, it's deceptive.

so, basically you agree with all the points ;)

Pretty much, except 2 and 5.

[Manufan909]

Manu's per-40 minute stats the last 2 seasons
Given also the Spurs yearly play at the slowest pace in the league, it makes putting up those sorts of numbers is amazing. Hes still way under rated.

You see the type of crazy fantasy stats players put up in run and gun systems like Phoenix and now New York - inflating your numbers like that is impossible in a slow pace.

I'm not trying to call you a liar, but do they realy have the fewest possessions per 48 in the league? If so, god damn. And either way, that is a HUGE statisic. Makes guys like Leandro look almost as good as Manu because people put so much on ppg and shit. But across the board, the only thing Leandro has on Manu is top speed. Everything else he is worse, or drastically worse.

[mookie2001]

manu really blew it against the lakers last year, that dude played like garbage and shamed his entire country

he doesnt even believe in god

[JamStone]

When healthy and playing his best, I probably take him over every other shooting guard in the league including Kobe and Wade. The trick is having him healthy and rolling come playoff time. Pop hasn't figured out how to have Manu peak in the playoffs since 2005 :depressed

When Manu healthy and playing his best and Kobe healthy and playing his best, you still take Manu over Kobe?

Come on. I love Manu Ginobili, but if that's not slappy homerism, I don't know what is.

[BlackBellamy]

When Manu healthy and playing his best and Kobe healthy and playing his best, you still take Manu over Kobe?

Come on. I love Manu Ginobili, but if that's not slappy homerism, I don't know what is.

For the Spurs? I dunno. Kobe is a beast and the best out there for his position, still he has proven to be a sorry team mate in particular when the Lakes are in a losing stretch. I don't think he would ever come to S.A. or that L.A. will ever shop him out (unless you get Le James er sumfin') but to give credence to the argument... Manu has proven to be a winner that thrives just as much (if not more) on the loses as he does wins. He holds himself (sometimes needlessly) accountable for loses that could not just be chalked up to his play or lack of, he plays with something to prove and not for personal ego. Plus he comes relatively cheap, and has an undying devotion to this club. Needless to say Kobe is a living, playing legend of the sport, Manu is a great team mate. I'll take Manu, Kobe would be cancer here.

[DPG21920]

Is this really even a question? Kobe + Duncan would = more rings than anyone, especially now with how Kobe has matured.

[BlackBellamy]

manu really blew it against the lakers last year, that dude played like garbage and shamed his entire country

he doesnt even believe in god

^This is a joke, right?

[DPG21920]

If you look at "clutch" stats, Manu is easily the number 3 player behind kobe and wade. Manu lead the league last year in almost all "clutch" statistical measures.

This article echoes what I said:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AhxdsgqeoXCVpQkN3OkcVHu8vLYF?slug=ys-forbesnbaclutch120408&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

In the National Basketball Association, superstar status is given to those who elevate their play in a game’s closing minutes, when the outcome is still in doubt.

It’s often forgotten that Michael Jordan, Larry Bird and Bill Russell, all revered as all-time greats, missed more shots during their careers than they made. Their legacies are built largely on the reputation of carrying their team to victory in close and decisive games. Jordan led the Chicago Bulls to six titles, Bird brought home three championships for the Boston Celtics and Russell captured 10 titles for the Celtics.

Since the NBA now imposes a stiff penalty of one dollar for each dollar a team’s payroll exceeds the league’s tax threshold (amounting to roughly 61 percent of projected revenues, or $71 million this season), signing clutch performers to bargain deals provides valuable breathing room and is a priority for general managers who assemble team rosters. Clutch players can generate millions of dollars of profits for a team because of the extra cash playoff games generate from tickets, merchandise and advertising.

Click here for more teams
In Pictures: The best basketball players for the buck

Ten years ago, during the height of the Michael Jordan era, Chicago Bulls-emblazoned products accounted for close to 40 percent of NBA-licensed-product sales. So far this year the Bulls – which haven’t produced an all-star since Jordan – have accounted for just 3.8 percent of total sales, according to industry tracker SportsOneSource.

To determine the best clutch players for the buck, we compared player statistics to pay from last season. Our survey includes only players who averaged five or more points in the fourth quarter and hit at least 40 percent of their shots when it mattered most (during the last five minutes and in overtime, with neither team ahead by more than five points). These “clutch time” stats were compiled by 82games.com, an online leader in analyzing the NBA.

Scoring and shooting percentage carried the most weight in our formula, but we also accounted for assists, rebounds and blocks to get a more complete picture of player performance down the stretch of close games. Salaries were measured against those of players with similar years of experience in the league, since pay limits based on longevity are stipulated by the collective bargaining agreement between the league and Players’ Association.

The best bargain guard was San Antonio’s Manu Ginobili, who led the Spurs in fourth-quarter scoring last season with 5.2 points per game – a full point better than all-star teammates Tim Duncan and Tony Parker. Ginobili shot a league-high 57.4 percent from the field during the last five minutes of close games and was paid $9 million.

Third ranked among guards was Kobe Bryant, who lived up to his reputation as a money player last year, shooting 44.8 percent late in the fourth quarter. His downside: a $19.5 million salary that was 2.5 times the pay of other players who have been in the league for at least 10 years.

LeBron James’ performance in late-game situations proved so superior to other forwards that he ranks as the best bargain at the position, despite his $13 million paycheck last year. If James’ clutch time scoring were grossed up to 48 minutes (the length of a full game), he would have averaged 56 points – tops among those who played in at least 15 games that weren’t decided until the last five minutes.

Orlando’s Hedu Turkoglu ranked second among forwards, thanks to finishing seventh league-wide in fourth-quarter scoring, while earning 13 percent less pay than his peers. Turkoglu also hit two memorable game-winning shots last season, including a three-pointer that beat Boston, the eventual league champions, as time expired.

[mookie2001]

whats a joke? did he play well against the lakers?

[mookie2001]

he took his entire globalist shitty country down the toilet with him

[timvp]

When Manu healthy and playing his best and Kobe healthy and playing his best, you still take Manu over Kobe?

Come on. I love Manu Ginobili, but if that's not slappy homerism, I don't know what is.

Says the guy who thinks AI is as good as Billups :stirpot:

But seriously, Manu at his best can put up comparable per minute numbers to Kobe. Add in the fact that Kobe can be an emo douchebag when things aren't going right and the fact that he likely wouldn't be too willing to share the spotlight with the TD and TP, and I don't think it's too much of a leap. Kobe could very well be the best player in the league but he didn't exactly get along with the last dominant bigman he played with and him playing quasi-point guard would make TP a lot less useful.

Manu on the other hand isn't as good but he has no emo or douchebag qualities about him, doesn't care about the spotlight, can play with others and only cares about winning. He's not going to pull an emo "I'm not going to shoot because people are calling me a ballhog" or "she said yes" or anything like that. And Manu hasn't choked in his last two finals.

On the Spurs, I'll live with fewer minutes played and slightly worse production to not have to worry about all the side drama that Kobe comes with.

[Deimosfobos]

whats a joke? did he play well against the lakers?

Of course not, he was hurt, it showed, pop still played him, and the Spurs lost to a good Lakers team mainly because of that.
Still no reason for your stupid comments.


he took his entire globalist shitty country down the toilet with him

Wow...

[BlackBellamy]

whats a joke? did he play well against the lakers?

He was injured against the Lakers. Give instance how Manu has ever shamed Argentina. There is no shame in losing to the U.S. I am not trying to cause confrontation, I am just at a loss as to what you mean by your accusations.

[mVp]

Don't feed the troll guys.

[superbigtime]

he took his entire globalist shitty country down the toilet with him

So are both of your parents stupid, or did you just inherit it from just one of them?

[igruex]

It would be cool to have a Manu's sickest assists all together in a vid so that we could enlighten ignorants with just an url.

[JamStone]

Says the guy who thinks AI is as good as Billups :stirpot:

But seriously, Manu at his best can put up comparable per minute numbers to Kobe. Add in the fact that Kobe can be an emo douchebag when things aren't going right and the fact that he likely wouldn't be too willing to share the spotlight with the TD and TP, and I don't think it's too much of a leap. Kobe could very well be the best player in the league but he didn't exactly get along with the last dominant bigman he played with and him playing quasi-point guard would make TP a lot less useful.

Manu on the other hand isn't as good but he has no emo or douchebag qualities about him, doesn't care about the spotlight, can play with others and only cares about winning. He's not going to pull an emo "I'm not going to shoot because people are calling me a ballhog" or "she said yes" or anything like that. And Manu hasn't choked in his last two finals.

On the Spurs, I'll live with fewer minutes played and slightly worse production to not have to worry about all the side drama that Kobe comes with.

First of all, I think AI is better than Billups, based on individual talent. Billups has played great for the Nuggets, and I'm still a fan of his. But, for me, I thought he was on his steep decline. Apparently, I was wrong at least so far a dozen or so games after the trade. So more power to him, and because I've always thought he was a great character guy and a good person and leader, I'm happy for Chauncey. That doesn't mean I change my mind and think Billups is all of a sudden a better player than Iverson. He has made the transition to the Nuggets much better than Iverson to the Pistons, I'll grant you that. The true testament will come playoffs anyway. You and I both know that.

As for Manu and Kobe, if you were specifically talking about who fits better on the Spurs (which was not made clear) and as someone mentioned how it applies to the team financially, I "could" agree that Manu is the better fit for the Spurs. If you want to add whatever biased factor called the "emo douchebag" variable, fine. I won't argue with that. That doesn't necessarily mean that Manu is the better player, and that was what this thread was about.

And, I will submit that when Kobe is in a good situation and is surrounded by talent, he is the player you want to be on that team. He proved as much on Team USA over the summer at the Olympics, when he all but volunteered to take a backseat to LeBron and Wade and Carmelo offensively and to be the defensive stopper. Emo indeed. Douchebag of course. And, when that superstar cast was collectively shitting their pants that Spain was actually in the game towards the end, once again, Kobe was the one called to bail out the team. Emo douchebag though he is.

He took a backseat to Shaq for 5 years despite being the better closer and harder worker. Yes, he was selfish in 2004 against the Pistons when he tried to win the Finals MVP that ended up being the Lakers demise. Emo, egotistical, douchebag. Fine.

He's already proven last year and this year how he's changed from that.

See, I don't even fucking like Kobe Bryant the person. I agree he has been and probably still is frequently a douchebag and an egotistical emo. But, I'm not going to cloud my judgment on his talent. I take Kobe on my team over any other perimeter player in the game except for LeBron James. Come on. Manu? I fucking love how Manu plays the game and leaves it all on the court. The same reason why I love Allen Iverson, the basketball player. But, come on. I won't dare say a bad thing about Manu or his game. I'm a huge fan. But, I'm not going to say I'd take him over Kobe all things equal, both healthy and playing their best. That's just stupid.

[xtremesteven33]

Better player: Kobe by miles
Better teamplayer: Manu by miles

[peskypesky]

As much as I love Manu, ONLY a complete homer would pick Manu over Kobe.

[xtremesteven33]

As much as I love Manu, ONLY a complete homer would pick Manu over Kobe.



:tu

[mookie2001]

only the really great players will play when they know theyre injured and its obvious to everyone theyre playing like MUNG and hurting the team

[mookie2001]

ginobili is an inconsistant, fragile, past his prime player who has cost the spurs more than hes helped. he has thousands of fake fans who call themselves a church that worship some chode who doesnt even believe in god

parker is, was and will always be better and they hate that fact

[peskypesky]

only the really great players will play when they know theyre injured and its obvious to everyone theyre playing like MUNG and hurting the team

I hate to agree with you, but I do. Manu should have taken himself out of the games against LA when he couldn't play well.

My brother says Manu is responsible for the Spurs TWICE not getting to the Finals. First, in 2006 when he made the idiotic foul against Dirk that allowed Dallas to win. And last year, when he played like crap in more than one game against LA.

I think my bro is being a bit harsh, because without Manu, who's to say we would have even gotten to the conference finals in both those seasons, but Manu definitely has some serious black marks against him.

[mookie2001]

i bet your brother thinks the 2nd amendment grants us the right the bear arms too

listen to this guy rufus, he knows what hes talking about

[xtremesteven33]

I hate to agree with you, but I do. Manu should have taken himself out of the games against LA when he couldn't play well.

My brother says Manu is responsible for the Spurs TWICE not getting to the Finals. First, in 2006 when he made the idiotic foul against Dirk that allowed Dallas to win. And last year, when he played like crap in more than one game against LA.

I think my bro is being a bit harsh, because without Manu, who's to say we would have even gotten to the conference finals in both those seasons, but Manu definitely has some serious black marks against him.



you live and die with manus intensity.

[DPG21920]

Manu does have some of his own side drama (see all of the raging debates on him in here) TimVP, it is just different.

[timvp]

Manu does have some of his own side drama (see all of the raging debates on him in here) TimVP, it is just different.Fans discussing aspects about Manu does not equal side drama :lol

I'm talking about things that actually affect on-court play.

[DPG21920]

Fans discussing aspects about Manu does not equal side drama :lol

I'm talking about things that actually affect on-court play.

Him "playing when asked not to" and missing time on the court does affect that. It is off the court "drama" (to some) and it has effected his contract situation, so you would be silly to laugh at it.

[Deimosfobos]

Him "playing when asked not to" and missing time on the court does affect that. It is off the court "drama" (to some) and it has effected his contract situation, so you would be silly to laugh at it.

Manu is as drama-free as it gets for a baller of his quality/popularity, saying otherwise is stupidity.
He is a role model as a player and as a person.

[mookie2001]

He is a role model as a player and as a person
persons who dont believe in god...

[timvp]

First of all, I think AI is better than Billups, based on individual talent. Billups has played great for the Nuggets, and I'm still a fan of his. But, for me, I thought he was on his steep decline. Apparently, I was wrong at least so far a dozen or so games after the trade. So more power to him, and because I've always thought he was a great character guy and a good person and leader, I'm happy for Chauncey. That doesn't mean I change my mind and think Billups is all of a sudden a better player than Iverson. He has made the transition to the Nuggets much better than Iverson to the Pistons, I'll grant you that. The true testament will come playoffs anyway. You and I both know that.Billups > Iverson. I think that is pretty clear.

Iverson might be able to beat Billups in a game of one-on-one but in a team setting, there's no contest.


As for Manu and Kobe, if you were specifically talking about who fits better on the Spurs (which was not made clear) and as someone mentioned how it applies to the team financially, I "could" agree that Manu is the better fit for the Spurs. Then you agree with me. :tu


And, I will submit that when Kobe is in a good situation and is surrounded by talent, he is the player you want to be on that team. He proved as much on Team USA over the summer at the Olympics, when he all but volunteered to take a backseat to LeBron and Wade and Carmelo offensively and to be the defensive stopper. Emo indeed. Douchebag of course. And, when that superstar cast was collectively shitting their pants that Spain was actually in the game towards the end, once again, Kobe was the one called to bail out the team. Emo douchebag though he is.Ah yes because Manu doesn't have any Olympic success :lmao


He took a backseat to Shaq for 5 years despite being the better closer and harder worker. He took a back seat because Shaq was by far the better player.


He's already proven last year and this year how he's changed from that.Sample size. We'll see how long it lasts. If the Lakers win the championship this year, which could definitely happen, all should be good in Kobe land. If they don't, I wouldn't example count on Kobe continuing to be this version of Kobe.


See, I don't even fucking like Kobe Bryant the person. I agree he has been and probably still is frequently a douchebag and an egotistical emo. But, I'm not going to cloud my judgment on his talent. I take Kobe on my team over any other perimeter player in the game except for LeBron James. Come on. Manu? I fucking love how Manu plays the game and leaves it all on the court. The same reason why I love Allen Iverson, the basketball player. But, come on. I won't dare say a bad thing about Manu or his game. I'm a huge fan. But, I'm not going to say I'd take him over Kobe all things equal, both healthy and playing their best. That's just stupid.Kobe is a damn good player. I've seen him curbstomp the Spurs enough to know this extremely well.

But as for a fit on the Spurs, I'd take Ginobili at his best. If I am looking for a player to put on a mediocre team, I'd go with Ginobili. See Argentina's National Team to see what Ginobili can do with mediocre talent. See the 2005-2007 Lakers to see what Kobe does with mediocre talent - on and off the court.

Now if I have a random good team and I get to pick either Kobe or Manu to add to the equation, more often than not I'd go with Kobe. Probably 80%+ of the time. It'd take a unique situation for me to pick Manu over Kobe. For example, I'd say Kobe is a better fit on teams like the Jazz, Pistons, Nuggets, Hawks, Magic, Blazers, Rockets and Dallas. But I'd say Manu is a better fit on teams like the Spurs, Hornets and Suns. Depends on the makeup of the team but I do agree that usually it'd be Kobe.

[timvp]

Him "playing when asked not to" and missing time on the court does affect that. It is off the court "drama" (to some) and it has effected his contract situation, so you would be silly to laugh at it.That wouldn't even register as a drop in the bucket compared to someone like Kobe ... who coincidentally also played injured in the Olympics.

[yagozev]

Just in time, for a Yahoo analysis on the topic, putting the salary in the ecuation. And the winner is... :hat

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AsfldcTaKBKHZKHvDApbAga8vLYF?slug=ys-forbesnbaclutch120408&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

[DPG21920]

Just in time, for a Yahoo analysis on the topic, putting the salary in the ecuation. And the winner is... :hat

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AsfldcTaKBKHZKHvDApbAga8vLYF?slug=ys-forbesnbaclutch120408&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

I already posted this.

[DPG21920]

That wouldn't even register as a drop in the bucket compared to someone like Kobe ... who coincidentally also played injured in the Olympics.

Notice how I put things in quotes? But you cannot say Manu is drama free, even if he is not on Kobe's level in that department. Kobe did not miss anytime and his team has the best record in the league.

[Deimosfobos]

persons who dont believe in god...

Yes... most of the world doesn't belive in your god or even a god at all, deal with it retard.

You seam to belive in a god, and that doesn't stop you from being a waste of a human life. If there is heaven and hell, I have news for you, you won't get on the first one...

[timvp]

Notice how I put things in quotes? But you cannot say Manu is drama free, even if he is not on Kobe's level in that department.Playing for your NT when ultimately being given permission doesn't really qualify as drama.


Kobe did not miss anytime and his team has the best record in the league.Check again :reading

[DPG21920]

Yes... most of the world doesn't belive in your god or even a god at all, deal with it retard.

You seam to belive in a god, and that doesn't stop you from being a waste of a human life. If there is heaven and hell, I have news for you, you won't get on the first one...

Quit defending everything. Is Manu a great player, yes. Is Manu unselfish, yes. Is he a great teammate/competitor, yes. Is he perfect, no. Anyone who says otherwise is ignorant. He created his own mini drama this year which lead to him missing games, losing out on a contract that could of already been finalized and many fans becoming pissed.

It is not just SpursTalk. He has spoken about it, Pop has spoken about it, fans have spoken about it, sports radio has spoken about it, journalist have wrote about its and television analyst have discussed it.

He has had no where near Kobe level drama, but he is not perfect. Great teammate and player though.

[mookie2001]

You seam to belive in a god, and that doesn't stop you from being a waste of a human life. If there is heaven and hell, I have news for you, you won't get on the first one...im only going to the english as a first language heaven

[DPG21920]

Playing for your NT when ultimately being given permission doesn't really qualify as drama.

Check again :reading


Quit defending everything. Is Manu a great player, yes. Is Manu unselfish, yes. Is he a great teammate/competitor, yes. Is he perfect, no. Anyone who says otherwise is ignorant. He created his own mini drama this year which lead to him missing games, losing out on a contract that could of already been finalized and many fans becoming pissed.

It is not just SpursTalk. He has spoken about it, Pop has spoken about it, fans have spoken about it, sports radio has spoken about it, journalist have wrote about its and television analyst have discussed it.

He has had no where near Kobe level drama, but he is not perfect. Great teammate and player though.

I did not say it was a catastrophe Timvp, but to act like no one (spurs fans and professionals) noticed or did not create some drama (Harvey said to trade him) is being dishonest.

Lakers record this year: 16-2. Kobe's games played: 18

[timvp]

I did not say it was a catastrophe Timvp, but to act like no one (spurs fans and professionals) noticed or did not create some drama (Harvey said to trade him) is being dishonest. Right now, there's no drama between Manu and his teammates or the coaches. That's the point.


Lakers record this year: 16-2. Kobe's games played: 18What's the Celtics record?

[JamStone]

timvp, what does Manu's Olympic success have to do with Kobe showing he's matured and was able to play a role in a team concept? In my entire post, I never put down Manu to prop up Kobe. I am a Manu Ginobili fan. To say Manu is better than Kobe is wrong. To want him on your team because he comes with less emotional and ego baggage is fine. Kobe has changed as a player. He'll never be as selfless as Manu. But, then again, Manu will never be as great as Kobe. Part of being one of the greatest players in the game involves wanting the moment, being selfish to a certain degree, wanting to be the guy. Manu doesn't have to do that all the time, nor does he want to. That's why he's not quite at the same level as Kobe. Manu is just as content being the third wheel as he is being the guy with the ball in his hands at the end of the game. Kobe doesn't have that mentality, and neither did other greats in the game.

You talk about small sample size with the examples of Kobe being a changed player, and then you say it's pretty clear that Billups > Iverson after 14 or 15 regular season games after the trade. Good one.


Now if I have a random good team and I get to pick either Kobe or Manu to add to the equation, more often than not I'd go with Kobe. Probably 80%+ of the time. It'd take a unique situation for me to pick Manu over Kobe. For example, I'd say Kobe is a better fit on teams like the Jazz, Pistons, Nuggets, Hawks, Magic, Blazers, Rockets and Dallas. But I'd say Manu is a better fit on teams like the Spurs, Hornets and Suns. Depends on the makeup of the team but I do agree that usually it'd be Kobe.

So, actually you more or less agreed with me. Good. 80% is still too low though. Probably 96.67% of the time, you choose Kobe over Manu.

[tomtom]

persons who dont believe in god...

You say that if being religious is synonymous with being a good person :nope

[DPG21920]

Right now, there's no drama between Manu and his teammates or the coaches. That's the point.

What's the Celtics record?

Right now there is no drama between Kobe and his teammates. We are talking about moments in time, not lingering problems.

What does the Celtics record have to do with you being wrong about Kobe missing time this year because of his drama? If you want to nitpick about me saying they have the best record in the league (they are tied in the loss column) then please go ahead and ignore the fact of my main point. Kobe's drama did not cause him to miss time this year, Manu's did.

[DPG21920]

There is no comparing Manu drama vs. Kobe drama with regards to scale, but he has had some drama. Still, he is a great teammate and competitor. At least his "drama" was done out of good will and intentions. Kobe, not so much.

[SmellyFeet]

Kobe
Wade
.
.
.
Manu.

[urunobili]

in 2005 Ginobili was the best 2 and arguably the best player in the world...

Nowadays three is VERY good rated... let's talk in March...

[HarlemHeat37]

Manu was never arguably the best SG or player in the world, come on now..I'm assuming you're talking about International play, which you could argue for, but from an NBA standpoint, he's never been anywhere near that..don't be a homer..

[TMTTRIO]

Manu hasn't caused any drama. If he wanted to he would whine and cry about having to come off the bench after all these years for Hedo, Brent, and Finley. Instead he just accepted it and continued to play without saying anything.

[sook]

As a rockets fan and my dislike for tmac's stupid injuries i can't take it in myself to say Ginobili is better...or that i would rather have him if you DISREGARD salary...

T-Mac can make a huge difference even when not shooting well...Ex:22 game win streak.

I love Ginobili but i can't say he's better than Johnson, Roy, or T-Mac. He is a

player that flourishes as a 6th man, and does good sometimes as a starter.

Most of the time he played off the Bench, not big minutes and not at the

leadership role. You can play the FG% game but its kind of hard to do when youdon't take into consideration outside factors, like if someone is the total

focal point of the opposing team's defense which I'm sure Manu has never sniffed.

Btw, don't take opinions from Clutchfans, they are all moody 12 yr olds, after a win they consider a player to be god, and after a loss they consider them

to be garbage.

[Deimosfobos]

im only going to the english as a first language heaven

You wish you could speak/write more than 1 language retard... o wait, you don't. You are happy leaving in your trailer park, and you don't plan to go anywhere.
And believing in a god doesn't make you any better, just proves that people are what they do, not what they believe.

[Deimosfobos]

As a rockets fan and my dislike for tmac's stupid injuries i can't take it in myself to say Ginobili is better...or that i would rather have him if you DISREGARD salary...

T-Mac can make a huge difference even when not shooting well...Ex:22 game win streak.

I love Ginobili but i can't say he's better than Johnson, Roy, or T-Mac. He is a

player that flourishes as a 6th man, and does good sometimes as a starter.

Most of the time he played off the Bench, not big minutes and not at the

leadership role. You can play the FG% game but its kind of hard to do when youdon't take into consideration outside factors, like if someone is the total

focal point of the opposing team's defense which I'm sure Manu has never sniffed.

Btw, don't take opinions from Clutchfans, they are all moody 12 yr olds, after a win they consider a player to be god, and after a loss they consider them

to be garbage.

Houston has a great team, yet they will fail yet again, like past years. I honestly believe is because you have T-Mac, who is a drain for that team in every way possible.
This will never happen, but I would bet my left nut that Manu would make Houston a better team, not because he is more naturally skillled, but because he always make his teams better by doing what ever it takes to win.

At the end of the day, we have no way of proving what we think may happen. So all we can do is argue.

[DPG21920]

Manu is better than T-Mac in almost every area of the game, especially mentally.

[mookie2001]

You wish you could speak/write more than 1 language retard... o wait, you don't. You are happy leaving in your trailer park, and you don't plan to go anywhereROFL
posting in english isnt very impressive when someone can read one of your posts and tell you cant speak or write english worth shit

que lastima

[galvatron3000]

Billups > Iverson. I think that is pretty clear.

Iverson might be able to beat Billups in a game of one-on-one but in a team setting, there's no contest.

Then you agree with me. :tu

Ah yes because Manu doesn't have any Olympic success :lmao

He took a back seat because Shaq was by far the better player.

Sample size. We'll see how long it lasts. If the Lakers win the championship this year, which could definitely happen, all should be good in Kobe land. If they don't, I wouldn't example count on Kobe continuing to be this version of Kobe.

Kobe is a damn good player. I've seen him curbstomp the Spurs enough to know this extremely well.

But as for a fit on the Spurs, I'd take Ginobili at his best. If I am looking for a player to put on a mediocre team, I'd go with Ginobili. See Argentina's National Team to see what Ginobili can do with mediocre talent. See the 2005-2007 Lakers to see what Kobe does with mediocre talent - on and off the court.

Now if I have a random good team and I get to pick either Kobe or Manu to add to the equation, more often than not I'd go with Kobe. Probably 80%+ of the time. It'd take a unique situation for me to pick Manu over Kobe. For example, I'd say Kobe is a better fit on teams like the Jazz, Pistons, Nuggets, Hawks, Magic, Blazers, Rockets and Dallas. But I'd say Manu is a better fit on teams like the Spurs, Hornets and Suns. Depends on the makeup of the team but I do agree that usually it'd be Kobe.



Revisit the Spurs versus Lakers regular season game 2003-2004 season when Tim and Tony were both injured, no David Robinson and you see what Manu can do with a medicore team, the LAkers had Shaq, Karl, Gary and Kobe and he crushed them all.

[sook]

Manu is better than T-Mac in almost every area of the game, especially mentally.

Ask every GM in the league who they would rather have and 90% of tehm would say Mcgrady, he just makes him teammates better.

[mookie2001]

at least esmegmol knows how to type english, shit he sold out his country and became a globalist but the man sure can type english well

[mookie2001]

Revisit the Spurs versus Lakers regular season game 2003-2004 season when Tim and Tony were both injured, no David Robinson and you see what Manu can do with a medicore team, the LAkers had Shaq, Karl, Gary and Kobe and he crushed them all.

yeah we didnt even have robinson!
that was a huge win, fuck you gary payton!

[mystargtr34]

Manu and T-Mac shouldnt be a debate anymore. T-Mac WAS great, until he can prove hes healthy and can t back to an All-Star level, which is where Manu has been since 2004, hes just an above average player.

If you want stats, Manu beats any other 2 guard other than Wade and Kobe in production. Now that Kobe has deep talent around him like Manu has always had, his numbers have taken a hit too.

The question with Manu was whether he could be that lead guy or put up the same numbers with all the attention on him. He put up consecutive 37 point games playing without Tony and Duncan and beat two of the leagues best teams. Thats a small sample size, but who cares, he hasnt had to play that role, and wont likely have to play that role in the NBA, which is perfect for the Spurs.

I wont even bother getting in to accomplishments, winning and clutchness.

[galvatron3000]

yeah we didnt even have robinson!
that was a huge win, fuck you gary payton!

we lost that game:wow

[mystargtr34]

Ask every GM in the league who they would rather have and 90% of tehm would say Mcgrady, he just makes him teammates better.

Manu doesnt? I would say Manu and T-Mac are both better passers than Kobe, and Manu is every bit the passer T-Mac is.

Whats this GM survey your talking about? I would say right now, 100% of GM's would take Manu over T-mac. Every single one.

[Anti.Hero]

LOL, no doubt he is better than TMac.

[DPG21920]

Just throwing out random statistics does not mean anything. Look at every statistical measure and look at intangibles and look at accolades. Manu dominates T-Mac.

[Deimosfobos]

ROFL
posting in english isnt very impressive when someone can read one of your posts and tell you cant speak or write english worth shit

que lastima

It's not supposed to be impressive at all retard, speaking several languages is a common skill among normal people, witch you clearly aren't.
Aren't you supposed to be reading the bible? Ohh... wait... you believe in god, yet you probably know shit about your own religion as you clearly show with your moronic replays.

[galvatron3000]

I've never really consider T Mac a SG but I guess that's his position, I always thought he was a Sf. He's more a point forward/guard that shooting guard. He doesn't attack as much as he should and I give Manu the nod there because he attacks the rim and gets to the line. McGrady has the size, length and skill to do more but his mentality is or has softened, Manu is and has been tough minded since coming into the league. He was never afraid to attack Shaq, took his hits and keep attacking the big guy. He helped DETHRONE the LAKERS, (contrary to popular belief it was the 2003 Spurs and not the 2004 Pistons).

[underdawg]

Manu doesnt? I would say Manu and T-Mac are both better passers than Kobe, and Manu is every bit the passer T-Mac is.

Whats this GM survey your talking about? I would say right now, 100% of GM's would take Manu over T-mac. Every single one.

How many times was T-Mac traded?

[mystargtr34]

Once.

[mookie2001]

It's not supposed to be impressive at all retard, speaking several languages is a common skill among normal people, witch you clearly aren't.
Aren't you supposed to be reading the bible? Ohh... wait... you believe in god, yet you probably know shit about your own religion as you clearly show with your moronic replays.yeah your write, emmigrants whom leaf there own countrie four another often speech more than won languages, and usually they cant speek one worth shit and its hilarrious

[Frenchise player]

At his peak T Mac was a top five player in the league something I am not sure Manu ever was in his carreer but since he came to Houston he has steadily declined and his body seems way more broken down.

[underdawg]

Once.

found it

Jun 29, 2004: Orlando Magic traded Tracy McGrady, Juwan Howard, Tyronn Lue and Reece Gaines to the Houston Rockets for Steve Francis, Cuttino Mobley and Kelvin Cato.
Aug 3, 2000: Toronto Raptors traded Tracy McGrady to the Orlando Magic for a future 1st round selection.
Jun 25, 1997: Drafted by the Toronto Raptors in the 1st round (9th overall) in 1997.

[underdawg]

this is also interesting - think a GM would prefer this over Manu's injury?

Nov 26, 2008: Sore left knee, day-to-day.
Apr 11, 2008: Missed 1 game (sore left shoulder).
Apr 9, 2008: Sore left shoulder, day-to-day.
Feb 1, 2008: Missed 1 game (day-to-day).
Jan 29, 2008: Flu, day-to-day.
Jan 19, 2008: Missed 11 games (left knee injury).
Dec 31, 2007: Left knee injury, sidelined indefinitely.
Dec 22, 2007: Missed 1 game (left knee injury).
Dec 20, 2007: Left knee injury, day-to-day.
Nov 21, 2007: Missed 2 games (right elbow tendinitis).
Nov 15, 2007: Right elbow tendinitis, day-to-day.
Apr 21, 2007: Missed the last game of the regular season (rest).
Apr 18, 2007: Rest, day-to-day.
Feb 28, 2007: Missed 1 game (flu).
Feb 26, 2007: Flu, day-to-day.
Jan 20, 2007: Missed 1 game (sore back).
Jan 17, 2007: Sore back, inactive list.
Dec 26, 2006: Missed 7 games (back spasms).
Dec 12, 2006: Back spasms, sidelined indefinitely.
Apr 19, 2006: Missed the last 20 games of the regular season (back spasms).
Mar 12, 2006: Back spasms, day-to-day.
Mar 8, 2006: Missed 1 game (back injury).
Mar 7, 2006: Back injury, day-to-day.
Feb 26, 2006: Missed 1 game (personal reasons).
Feb 24, 2006: Personal reasons, day-to-day.
Jan 20, 2006: Missed 5 games (back spasms).
Jan 10, 2006: Back spasms, day-to-day.
Nov 29, 2005: Missed 5 games (back injury).
Nov 20, 2005: Back injury, day-to-day.
Nov 12, 2005: Missed 3 games (back injury).
Nov 5, 2005: Back injury, day-to-day.
Apr 23, 2005: Missed the last game of the regular season (back spasms).
Apr 20, 2005: Back spasms, day-to-day.
Jan 26, 2005: Missed 1 game (personal reasons).
Jan 24, 2005: Personal reasons, day-to-day.
Nov 15, 2004: Missed 2 games (hip injury).
Nov 11, 2004: Hip injury, day-to-day.
Nov 1, 2004: Signed by the Houston Rockets to a multi-year contract extension.
Apr 14, 2004: Missed the last 9 games of the regular season (left patella tendinitis).
Mar 31, 2004: Left patella tendinitis, injured list.
Mar 26, 2004: Knee injury, day-to-day.
Mar 24, 2004: Missed 2 games (personal reasons).
Mar 20, 2004: Personal reasons, day-to-day.
Feb 8, 2004: Missed 2 games (back spasms).
Feb 4, 2004: Back spasms, day-to-day.
Feb 3, 2004: Missed 1 game (personal reasons).
Jan 31, 2004: Personal reasons, day-to-day.
Nov 26, 2003: Missed 1 game (flu).
Nov 24, 2003: Flu, day-to-day.
Nov 14, 2003: Missed 0 games (sprained left ankle).
Nov 13, 2003: Foot injury, day-to-day.
Jan 29, 2003: Missed 1 game (personal reasons).
Jan 26, 2003: Personal reasons, day-to-day.
Dec 25, 2002: Missed 2 games (back injury).
Dec 20, 2002: Back injury, day-to-day.
Dec 6, 2002: Missed 1 game (sprained left ankle).
Dec 4, 2002: Sprained left ankle, day-to-day.
Nov 27, 2002: Missed 1 game (back spasms).
Nov 24, 2002: Back spasms, day-to-day.
Apr 20, 2002: Missed the last game of the regular season (strained lower back).
Apr 17, 2002: Strained lower back, day-to-day.
Mar 26, 2002: Missed 1 game (back injury).
Mar 23, 2002: Back injury, day-to-day.
Feb 26, 2002: Missed 1 game (sore right foot).
Feb 24, 2002: Sore right foot, day-to-day.
Jan 5, 2002: Fined $5,000 by the NBA for his actions on Jan 4 against the New Jersey Nets.
Dec 26, 2001: Missed 3 games (strained lower back).
Dec 19, 2001: Strained lower back, day-to-day.

[Manu20]

Well at least he is first in the Prime-time bargains for SG's.

http://www.forbes.com/2008/12/03/basketball-player-bargains-biz-sports-nba08-cz_ps_1203bargains_slide_2.html?partner=yahoosport s

[Deimosfobos]

yeah your write, emmigrants whom leaf there own countrie four another often speech more than won languages, and usually they cant speek one worth shit and its hilarrious

Any of those emigrants surely has more brain cells than you ever had, and i'm not even mentioning skills, witch i'm sure you lack any. You are probably the fat, trailer trash, redneck, retard image USA sells to the world.

And when I talk about emigrants in third person is not an accident, aside being to USA, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, Spain, England, France, Italy and Sudafrica as a tourist, I never emigrated anywhere, 30 and counting on the same country I was born. Not that being an emigrant has anything wrong with it, you come from a family of emigrants, way before your family start fucking each other... unless you are a native american, witch I highly doubt.

And i'm done responding to you, since I'm also being a retard for feeding a troll.

[mookie2001]

im a fat native american witch

[mystargtr34]

found it

Jun 29, 2004: Orlando Magic traded Tracy McGrady, Juwan Howard, Tyronn Lue and Reece Gaines to the Houston Rockets for Steve Francis, Cuttino Mobley and Kelvin Cato.
Aug 3, 2000: Toronto Raptors traded Tracy McGrady to the Orlando Magic for a future 1st round selection.
Jun 25, 1997: Drafted by the Toronto Raptors in the 1st round (9th overall) in 1997.

I was wrong sorry i thought he signed as a Free Agent with Orlando.

[TMTTRIO]

You got to stop and think that Manu's been the third option on this team too (behind Tim and Tony). He has shown though that he can take over games without Tim or Tony. I just don't think he could do it consistantly like the others. It would be interesting to see how the Rockets would do with Manu on that team instead. I know he would at least be great playing with Scola.

[sook]

all i'm trying to say is Health would be the only reason anyone would take Manu over Mcgrady as much as i don't like him.

It is true that Manu has an excellent attitude though, one of an extremely hard worker.


Not trying to sound rude by the least bit when i say this but spurs fans have the tendency to over rate Manu extremely. I read numerious posts where you guys claimed he was the best player in the league at one point and some would take him over Kobe. Jamstone seems to understand the point im getting at

[mystargtr34]

all i'm trying to say is Health would be the only reason anyone would take Manu over Mcgrady as much as i don't like him.

It is true that Manu has an excellent attitude though, one of an extremely hard worker.

I would take a healthy Manu over a healthy T-Mac today. I think a healthy T-Mac is only 75% of the player he was in his prime, hes had so many back and knee problems so i doubt his explosion would be close to what it once was.

In his prime, T-Mac was top 5.

[InK]

Guess we just love Manu to much for our own good then. Cause id hate to see that trade happening, Roy and Johnson, i could handle that , but bringing a semi absent .400 guy, noes to that.

[amy020]

Manu is far better than Tmac as he is a better shooter,better denfender,better passer and most important better clutch player.

[diego]

... Part of being one of the greatest players in the game involves wanting the moment, being selfish to a certain degree, wanting to be the guy. Manu doesn't have to do that all the time, nor does he want to. That's why he's not quite at the same level as Kobe. Manu is just as content being the third wheel as he is being the guy with the ball in his hands at the end of the game. Kobe doesn't have that mentality, and neither did other greats in the game.
...

I dont really care for the kobe v manu argument, i think kobe's advantages outweigh manu's. and its true that manu doesnt have to carry the same load for the spurs as kobe does for the lakers. but to say that manu is content to let others play and doesnt want the ball in his hands when he has been the spurs closer for the past 4 years is just BS. statistics and hardware show it. just because manu is coachable doesnt mean he isnt every bit as competitive.

[jemanuel]

Sorry, But He's No 1 For Me. Well, Just Imagine This, Spurs Didn't Win Against The Lakers Because Manu's Not 100% Healthy And Suffering An Ankle Injury Whereas Kobe (most No 1 Pick) Is. Case Closed!!!

Manu4life

[Man In Black]

I think the principal argument here is that Manu's skills, knowledge and game flow positive whether he is a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd option. See that's the difference here. Those other great 2's would NEVER let their games be subjugated. They like to be the man and will complain if they aren't. Manu likes to be the man too, but recognizes that his best attribute is that he does that when it's needed or asked. Not because he feels he's entitled too. For me, Manu is simply the best 2 in the world on this team. Kobe has better skills, Wade has better athleticism but neither one of those guys could ever accept a bench role except in case of coming after an injury.

[m33p0]

manu ranks third amongst shooting guards behind kobe and wade and numero uno in crunch time which means he is the guy you want to make plays for you to win games.




end of discussion.

[Darkwaters]

Wade drives me nuts. Hes a great player, but he is the recepient of so many preferential calls. It's just unreal. Just ask Mavs fans.

[ILoveOranges]

Wade drives me nuts. Hes a great player, but he is the recepient of so many preferential calls. It's just unreal. Just ask Mavs fans.

I'll second that.

[peskypesky]

Even though I am a big Manu fan, I really hate that fans use Manu's per min stats make him one of the best 2guards in the league. Manu CANNOT play 40 minutes a game for 75+ games a year. He simply cannot do what Kobe has done or doing.

Per min stats are nice to look at, but that doesn't mean he is on par with Kobe and Wade.

Maybe it's just me...

You're right. You can't just look at per min stats to compare two players. As much as we Spurs fans would like to do that, it's not valid, because the total production on the court is what determines a player's true value.

If player A averages 1pt per minute and plays 40 minutes, he's more valuable than a player who averages 2 pts per minute but plays only 12 minute per game. It's simple math.
1x40=40
2x12=24

40>24

As good as Manu is, he's not close to Kobe. He may be equal to TMac now, or at least close.

[peskypesky]

For me, Manu is simply the best 2 in the world on this team. Kobe has better skills, Wade has better athleticism but neither one of those guys could ever accept a bench role except in case of coming after an injury.

You're out of your mind. If Spurs had Wade at the 2, they would absolutely slay the rest of the league.

[mystargtr34]

You're right. You can't just look at per min stats to compare two players. As much as we Spurs fans would like to do that, it's not valid, because the total production on the court is what determines a player's true value.

If player A averages 1pt per minute and plays 40 minutes, he's more valuable than a player who averages 2 pts per minute but plays only 12 minute per game. It's simple math.
1x40=40
2x12=24

40>24

As good as Manu is, he's not close to Kobe. He may be equal to TMac now, or at least close.

Keep it in perspective. Extrapolating for a guy playing 1 minute is not the same as extrapolating for a guy playing 31 MPG like Manu did last season. Manu played 31 and Kobe played what, 36? Is that too much of a difference to compare their per 40 minute numbers.

Manu doesnt play 40 minutes because the coaching staff chooses to keep him fresh for the playoffs. Its not like he comes out of games asking for a breather because hes spent after 8 minutes a quarter, or because he will automatically break down after 60 games if he plays 40 MPG. Whether Manu could play 75 games a season playing 40 MPG can be argued all day long, what i do know is he can play near that level when the playoffs role around, and that he doesnt need to play 40 minutes a night for the Spurs to be competitve.

Look at Kobe now, playing less than 34 minutes a night. Thats the way it is when a team has other weapons, a player isnt required to do as much when his team mates are just as capable as they are. Again, whether Manu could be a number 1 option for an entire season playin 40 a night can be argued forever, we dont know.

[jemanuel]

Keep it in perspective. Extrapolating for a guy playing 1 minute is not the same as extrapolating for a guy playing 31 MPG like Manu did last season. Manu played 31 and Kobe played what, 36? Is that too much of a difference to compare their per 40 minute numbers.

Manu doesnt play 40 minutes because the coaching staff chooses to keep him fresh for the playoffs. Its not like he comes out of games asking for a breather because hes spent after 8 minutes a quarter, or because he will automatically break down after 60 games if he plays 40 MPG. Whether Manu could play 75 games a season playing 40 MPG can be argued all day long, what i do know is he can play near that level when the playoffs role around, and that he doesnt need to play 40 minutes a night for the Spurs to be competitve.

Look at Kobe now, playing less than 34 minutes a night. Thats the way it is when a team has other weapons, a player isnt required to do as much when his team mates are just as capable as they are. Again, whether Manu could be a number 1 option for an entire season playin 40 a night can be argued forever, we dont know.


i'm riding with you
:toast

[L.I.T]

I thought the idea that Manu would be just as effective playing 40 minutes as he is playing 30 minutes was put to rest last year. The consensus seemed to be that he was worn out by the playoffs after Pop had to play him heavy minutes in January and February.

But, at least the argument that he could put up outstanding numbers @ 36 minutes per game was answered in February 08: 24.3 points, 5.7 rebounds and 6.5 assists over 11 games is pretty good.

[kaji157]

I thought the idea that Manu would be just as effective playing 40 minutes as he is playing 30 minutes was put to rest last year. The consensus seemed to be that he was worn out by the playoffs after Pop had to play him heavy minutes in January and February.

But, at least the argument that he could put up outstanding numbers @ 36 minutes per game was answered in February 08: 24.3 points, 5.7 rebounds and 6.5 assists over 11 games is pretty good.

During that time last year when duncan was out and Parker was playing awfull he carried the team for a while scoring multiple 30+ points without TD.

I think one of those games was the dallas maverics, who tried everything and could not defend manu.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

wow... Manu love in this thread running rampant...

[Ginobilirules]

too many things to mention as to why Manu is 2nd best only behind kobe, but very close behind kobe too. let's just say that Manu does things that wade could never do, and manu is much tougher physically, true story. also: Manu is a major reason why the spurs have 3 of the 4 rings they have. manu doesn't get the degree of already earned credit simply because he's from a latin american co. no really"' it's fact. but the facts don't lie all you gotta do is watch when Manu dominates without warning" on any given night. many black fans are in denial to give manu the credit and admit the he's second best and also does the exact things that kobe does, with the same results and domination, except score 50 points in a game, but he's had nights where he's had 48, vs pho 46 last yr when he smoked" lebroom"" james in our win at cle 112-105 among others. Manu has is a made superstar"" and is the most unstoppable guard in the league hands down.

[byrdman31]

GIIIIIIIINOOOOOOOOBIIILIIIIIIi, this guy is great player, great to watch. i wouldnt put him at the top, but hes in there.. still think kobe, wade, are better, but thats because the system they are in. MANU is a beast with us and plays his role perfect here

[HarlemHeat37]

are some of you really biased enough to see Manu is anywhere near Kobe and Wade?..

so if we had a combination of Duncan-Kobe-Parker..we wouldn't be repeating every year?..

[Brazil]

Kobe>Wade>Manu>T-Mac

[kaji157]

T-Mac is out of the ecuation, if he played in any other team without yao he won´t even be mentioned.

[Dex]

T-Mac is out of the ecuation, if he played in any other team without yao he won´t even be mentioned.

TMac was arguably more impressive when he played for the Magic and commanded all the shots. He's had to defer ever since going to Houston, and it's gone downhill since.

I still rate Ginobili Top 3.

Kobe
Wade
Ginobili
T-Mac
Johnson

Wade hasn't necessarily been an example of good health, so I think the same argument goes for him, Manu, and Tracy.

To me, McGrady and Johnson both lose points for wasting talent. McGrady has to be the most talented player in the league to never see the second round, and for all of his ability, JJ hasn't been able to doing anything that matters since he left Phoenix.

Ginobili doesn't put up the same numbers as Johnson, and is probably not as talented as McGrady, but he's a proven winner. He's fearless, he's clutch, and he's made it happen on the big stage before. Wade and Kobe are the only other two who can say that AND put up better numbers.

I'd rather go somebody who is gonna win games than somebody who is gonna fill stats any day.

[rascal]

Manu is clearly number 3 here and there is more of an argument to be made for him to be Number 2 than there is for him to be 4th or lower. His postseason resume and overall career accomplishments trump all other NBA SGs except Kobe and Wade. Guys like Joe Johnson, Brandon Roy and T-Mac have no postseason accomplishments. In fact, I'm surprised nobody brought up AI. I'd probably rank him 4th right now.

Thats the problem when evaluating which players are better. Team success or lack of should not come into play. The players should be compared solely on their individual stats and play and not on what their teams did.

The comparisons get clouded when team success is taken into account because then it introduces the players teammates into the analysis.

[DaBears]

MANU ranks in top 5 in current active players, and among league history top 25.
His worth is not statistics but in heart & passion! That my friends is hard to come by.

[Ginobilirules]

hey" harlemheat"" you need your head examined, get real dude"" serious MANU OWNS WADE FOR SURE, GET OUT OF YOUR DENIAL:"" wade is turnover prone, ballhog, and has to score to help the heat win and even when he gtes 25 or more they often lose, where as Manu can get 25, or 30 and doesn't have to go off each night for the spurs to win, also; manu is smarter than wade"' and is two notches higher in talent, As well as manu dominates wade "' when head to head, it's the overall player of manu NOT JUST OVER RATED STATS"" SERIOUS SO GET OPEN YOUR EYES"". you must be a fake uneducated spurs fan, not real fan and not knowledgeable about b-ball either.

[HarlemHeat37]

I'm not gonna actually waste my time arguing with facts and logic in regards to your horrible post..

[rascal]

hey" harlemheat"" you need your head examined, get real dude"" serious MANU OWNS WADE FOR SURE, GET OUT OF YOUR DENIAL:"" wade is turnover prone, ballhog, and has to score to help the heat win and even when he gtes 25 or more they often lose, where as Manu can get 25, or 30 and doesn't have to go off each night for the spurs to win, also; manu is smarter than wade"' and is two notches higher in talent, As well as manu dominates wade "' when head to head, it's the overall player of manu NOT JUST OVER RATED STATS"" SERIOUS SO GET OPEN YOUR EYES"". you must be a fake uneducated spurs fan, not real fan and not knowledgeable about b-ball either.


You either not very smart or not yet out of grammer school.

[smeagol]

You are either not very smart or are not yet out of grammer school.


Oh . . . the irony . . .

[MarHill]

The only other shooting guards I would take over Manu is Kobe and Wade! And it's really close

Manu's intangibles and his ultra competitiveness and ability to make plays when he's not shooting well are second to none in basketball.

He is definitely the X-Factor for the Spurs!!!

[galvatron3000]

I'd take Manu over Wade because I think Manu is a better shooter and passer. Wade is probabyl stronger but that doesn't come into play because I've never seen Wade post up anyone, not saying he hasn't I just don't recall seeing. Both can get to the basket so that's null. Manu has the height advangtage so you can exploit that when shooting over other. Manu has the better 3 point shot. Manu will make the play for his teammates, Wade will too so that's null. Wade will score more points consistently because that's his role, Manu doesn't have to but when called upon he carry the burden well so to me that's null, debatable but null to ME.

The only advantage I give Kobe is his ability to post up using his height and strength.

Manu is top 5 SG no question but I'm sure if given some thought he's top 10-15 of the stars in the league and stats never really tell what Manu's value is all Spurs fans no this and opponents do too.

[Dartherus]

It's very difficult to have great stats in a winning team, sepacially in a very collective and defensive one like the Spurs.

Check Pierce when Boston was crap or Garnett for in Minnessota instance, they had huge stats in crappy teams, now both had their stats lowered in a winning team...as far as I remember, Pierce is scoring around 18 ppg in 37 mpg, Manu scores more in less minutes....so, that's the point, stats on crappy teams are not as worthy as the ones gotten in winning teams.

[Double-Up]

TMac was arguably more impressive when he played for the Magic and commanded all the shots. He's had to defer ever since going to Houston, and it's gone downhill since.

I still rate Ginobili Top 3.

Kobe
Wade
Ginobili
T-Mac
Johnson

Wade hasn't necessarily been an example of good health, so I think the same argument goes for him, Manu, and Tracy.

To me, McGrady and Johnson both lose points for wasting talent. McGrady has to be the most talented player in the league to never see the second round, and for all of his ability, JJ hasn't been able to doing anything that matters since he left Phoenix.

Ginobili doesn't put up the same numbers as Johnson, and is probably not as talented as McGrady, but he's a proven winner. He's fearless, he's clutch, and he's made it happen on the big stage before. Wade and Kobe are the only other two who can say that AND put up better numbers.

I'd rather go somebody who is gonna win games than somebody who is gonna fill stats any day.

I think T-Mac even now is more talented than Ginobil, but talent means mothing unless you use it properly so you gotta take Manu over him everytime. Kobe, Wade, Manu, Johnson, T-Mac, Roy, Allen are my top 7.

[Ginobilirules]

i'm not gonna waste my intellect or time on mr rascal"" there and idiots like you who don't know your head, from your ass"" let alone what the real facts are: anybody with true b-ball knowledge knows that Manu is better than wade in every facet of the game, anytime you've won titles on each level of competion, and are one the most important factors, not too mention many times the first option, on any given night like manu is, plus three titles is more than one"" DUH"" here's your sign, idiot'" and you can't fix stupid," your denial of these facts is PATHETIC"" and you are a boggus spurs, fan, let alone nba fan. i'm speaking from an nba standpoint of overall best"" not overblown, ballhogging stats"". think what you want in your little brain, but what i've told is{ facts,} not opinions. Manu doesn't make the stupid mistakes wade does with being TO PRONE, not too mention wade gets shutdown, on defense many times, by my very spurs, MANU DOESN'T GET SHUTDOWN'' he passes the ball and finds the open player, when he's caught in tight traffic, never forcing the issue like wade often does. also, MANU dominates in ways wade could only dream of, don't get me wrong, dwayne is a very good player , but Ginobili has already proven to be a superstar GREAT"" player, tremendous"" not just very good, like wade. Manu is currently a cpl notches better as an overall player easy to see that too"" unless you're blind, like you guys that are denial about admitting this fact. it has to do overall talent, smarts, toughness, and icewater"" in the vains killer instinct, Manu has that and is right behind only kobe by a slim margin in this area, taking your heart out." wade forces the issue, thinks he's a hero"' when he's not on the level that both kobe and Manu are. checkout youtube the video titled: [Manu Ginobili/Kobe Bryant]do the exact same things with the same results, wade isn't quite near that level yet. sorry truth hurts"" rascal, harlem, and others who are blinded by these facts, not opinions.