Is Dwight Howard a skillful player?

[DPG21920]

I was having this argument with many people today. I said Dwight is a beast but he does not have great skill. He cannot shoot, his low post moves are not that developed or diverse and his defense is only good.

I said he relies only on athleticism, but he is still a force because his athleticism is off the charts. They said I was crazy and kind of mis-construed what I was saying, taking it as bashing him. What does everyone think?

[TDMVPDPOY]

hey 2pts is 2pts...doesnt matter how you gett hem whether its from dunks or putbacks....

howard is like shaq, relying on body physique and raw athleticism....needs hookshot/low post moves and extend range to maybe baseline

i still prefer guys like al jefferson who has L33T low post offense...but shit defense (which can be taught)

amare...his game has change alot since he added the jumper from 18ft

and then you got guys like bogut/omeka who are really good but not given the touches on offense to show what they can do, they are fukn under utilize on their teams IMO.

you slot either one of these guys next duncan? SPURS ARE FKN BACK biatches

[balli]

I'd agree that he's raw. Probably will be for a while. Obviously, his game isn't predicated on a developed, fundamental skill set. I wouldn't say that's the same as being unskilled. Athleticism is a skill. And his defense is better than "only good". He's the single most disruptive defensive force in the league. Help and post defense alike. His last five games he's averaging 23, 17, 4 blocks and less than 2 fouls in 40 minutes/night.

So I don't think it really matters what he's relying on, dude's straight up the best big in the game as of right now. Scary to think what'll happen if he develops a shot and maybe two solid post moves.

[DPG21920]

hey 2pts is 2pts...doesnt matter how you gett hem whether its from dunks or putbacks....

howard is like shaq, relying on body physique and raw athleticism....needs hookshot/low post moves and extend range to maybe baseline

i still prefer guys like al jefferson who has L33T low post offense...but shit defense (which can be taught)

amare...his game has change alot since he added the jumper from 18ft

and then you got guys like bogut/omeka who are really good but not given the touches on offense to show what they can do, they are fukn under utilize on their teams IMO.

you slot either one of these guys next duncan? SPURS ARE FKN BACK biatches

See the Shaq argument was brought up as well. I said that Shaq had more skill than Dwight, and just as good of athleticism. Shaq at least had hooks and some low post moves.

Dwight is disruptive on defense, but I do not think he is better than KG or Duncan as an overall defensive player.

[TDMVPDPOY]

I'd agree that he's raw. Probably will be for a while. Obviously, his game isn't predicated on a developed, fundamental skill set. I wouldn't say that's the same as being unskilled. Athleticism is a skill. And his defense is better than "only good". He's the single most disruptive defensive force in the league. Help and post defense alike. His last five games he's averaging 23, 17, 4 blocks and less than 2 fouls in 40 minutes/night.

So I don't think it really matters what he's relying on, dude's straight up the best big in the game as of right now. Scary to think what'll happen if he develops a shot and maybe two solid post moves.

blocks are overrated depending on how you got them....fkn if your camping in the lane and waiting thats fukn not defense...thats being an opportunists to statpadd.....you can have monster games but doesnt mean shit when the other player puts up above avgs and ur team doesnt win........camby for example.

[Bob Lanier]

Athleticism is a skill.
Athleticism is just about the opposite of a skill.

[Allanon]

Absolutely, DHo lacks alot of fundamental skills like shooting, dribbling, etc. He relies on power and athleticism to get his points.

But that's only fair, he'd be unstoppable if he were to develop a shot, some handles, some moves.

[DPG21920]

I'd agree that he's raw. Probably will be for a while. Obviously, his game isn't predicated on a developed, fundamental skill set. I wouldn't say that's the same as being unskilled. Athleticism is a skill. And his defense is better than "only good". He's the single most disruptive defensive force in the league. Help and post defense alike. His last five games he's averaging 23, 17, 4 blocks and less than 2 fouls in 40 minutes/night.

So I don't think it really matters what he's relying on, dude's straight up the best big in the game as of right now. Scary to think what'll happen if he develops a shot and maybe two solid post moves.

I do not think athleticism is a skill. If he had the same athleticism as Duncan, he would be no where near how good he is. He did not learn to be athletic, he worked hard to maximize what he was born with. If you put that kind of athleticism into Tim Duncan's body, Tim would be the best player ever. Once that athleticism goes, Dwight is done. Tim can seemingly play longer because he relies on skill.

Once again, Dwight is a beast and I am not knocking the guy, just trying to describe him with regards to other bigs.

[Bob Lanier]

As to the original question, yes. He has good hands, good footwork within 8 feet of the basket, a nice jumphook, is a decent passer, has good rebounding recognition and anticipation (which he has developed, as he has his shotblocking).

Now he definitely still lacks a lot: he's intimidating in the paint but not an outstanding team defender; he can't reliably score in the halfcourt offense if he can't overpower his man; and he's not a leader. But all but the last can be changed. It doesn't seem that he's lacking in work ethic.

He could really stand to bulk up his lower body, too.

[A Bomb]

I was having this argument with many people today. I said Dwight is a beast but he does not have great skill. He cannot shoot, his low post moves are not that developed or diverse and his defense is only good.

I said he relies only on athleticism, but he is still a force because his athleticism is off the charts. They said I was crazy and kind of mis-construed what I was saying, taking it as bashing him. What does everyone think?

Thankyou for saying this, he's just too powerful of a player to develop a finese game, if he tries to he'll hurt his game now. He has almost reach his potential. I feel Oden will be a Dwight type player because of his strength also.


Don't want to hijack your tread, but on the other hand, Bynum has the same explosiveness, with more length and also has a finesse game, since he hasn't developed dwightness strength yet. So wuold you agree Bynum will pass Dwight as teh top center by the end of the year??:toast

[TDMVPDPOY]

I do not think athleticism is a skill. If he had the same athleticism as Duncan, he would be no where near how good he is. He did not learn to be athletic, he worked hard to maximize what he was born with. If you put that kind of athleticism into Tim Duncan's body, Tim would be the best player ever. Once that athleticism goes, Dwight is done. Tim can seemingly play longer because he relies on skill.

Once again, Dwight is a beast and I am not knocking the guy, just trying to describe him with regards to other bigs.

i dont wish he had an injury on him....

but if you look at guys like duncan/amare who had knee injuries early in there careers....loss their athleticism, but developed other areas in their game...either extending range or concentrate on defense. dwight should learn a lesson or two just in case someshit happens down the road.

problem with amare? i dont think it has to do with porters system, more to the fact that they got another big in the key taking up space to roam inside. cause the suns still run the PNR inside with nash and amare.....but i must admit amare has a very consistent 18ft jumper.....he knows where his good shooting spots are....

[DPG21920]

I do not know about the end of the year, but for my money, Bynum right now looks like he will be the better player long-term. We will see if that translates to winning. Sometimes power like Dwight's is good enough to win.

[DPG21920]

As to the original question, yes. He has good hands, good footwork within 8 feet of the basket, a nice jumphook, is a decent passer, has good rebounding recognition and anticipation (which he has developed, as he has his shotblocking).

Now he definitely still lacks a lot: he's intimidating in the paint but not an outstanding team defender; he can't reliably score in the halfcourt offense if he can't overpower his man; and he's not a leader. But all but the last can be changed. It doesn't seem that he's lacking in work ethic.

He could really stand to bulk up his lower body, too.

I do not think he has shown consistent jumphook at all. He has decent foot work and is not that good of a passer, although I think that is the one area where he can improve his game and become much more effective. He is good at both rebound anticipation and he uses his body well. I just wonder how much more he can develop. I think if anything, it will be his basketball IQ growing that can help him the most.

[TDMVPDPOY]

I feel Oden will be a Dwight type player because of his strength also.

So wuold you agree Bynum will pass Dwight as teh top center by the end of the year??:toast

comparing bynum to howard is like comparing sabonis to shaq, do you prefer skillful player going to work to get his stats or do you prefer a guy who uses body and athleticism to abuse their opponents...

is ODEN shooting with his right hand or did he stay with the left hand? dunno wtf is wrong with him but his not living up to the no.1 pick

[DPG21920]

It is too early to tell on both Bynum and Oden, but Bynum has vastly outplayed Oden up until this point.

[Allanon]

The flipside of Dwight Howard would be Yao Ming. Yao has all the skills and fundamentals but he lacks power and athleticism. And not to hijack but I think Bynum's the middle ground between Yao and DHo. He has Yao's skills in a raw form and DHo's athleticism without the power.

Bynum's the best defender of the three. Howard's the best rebounder. Yao is probably the best scorer as he has the most options.

Right now I think DHo has surpassed Yao and Bynum is in waiting.

[Allanon]

comparing bynum to howard is like comparing sabonis to shaq, do you prefer skillful player going to work to get his stats or do you prefer a guy who uses body and athleticism to abuse their opponents...

is ODEN shooting with his right hand or did he stay with the left hand? dunno wtf is wrong with him but his not living up to the no.1 pick

That's a pretty good comparison. Saboner was a bad-ass in a finesse kind of way in his prime.

[DPG21920]

That's a pretty good comparison. Saboner was a bad-ass in a finesse kind of way in his prime.

Ya, but people kept bringing up Shaq as an example of Dwight, but when Shaq came into league he was muchhhhhhhhh more skilled in almost every area of the game.

[TDMVPDPOY]

I do not think he has shown consistent jumphook at all. He has decent foot work and is not that good of a passer, although I think that is the one area where he can improve his game and become much more effective. He is good at both rebound anticipation and he uses his body well. I just wonder how much more he can develop. I think if anything, it will be his basketball IQ growing that can help him the most.

guys who rely on athleticism will be exploited by skillful players in the long term, what happens when you put a skillful player who can shut you down on defense and then toy around with you on offense when ur offensive skillset is so limited relying on dunks only....

if you look back at the duncan v amare games....look at the scoresheet everyone will think amare dominates duncan makn him look stupid, but if you watch the games, its mainly from dunks, while you look at duncans game, he throws the whole book of offensive skills in his arsenal taking you to school....

d12 has the right mind set atm, all he needs to do is add to his offensive game, at leasts he didnt put the jump fade-away aka ewing hahahhaha

[TDMVPDPOY]

It is too early to tell on both Bynum and Oden, but Bynum has vastly outplayed Oden up until this point.

i still take 2-3yr nba experience over 2-3yr college experience.....cause theres a huge difference in learning curve imo....college you have time to learn, while nba if you dont improve dramatically, you will not survive in the nba....

[Allanon]

Ya, but people kept bringing up Shaq as an example of Dwight, but when Shaq came into league he was muchhhhhhhhh more skilled in almost every area of the game.

I agree. You don't really think of Shaq as being skilled but he really was. He had a whole range of drop-step moves, jump hooks, spin moves, 1 hand banks, etc. He was also a great passer, great court-vision, knew how to pass out of double-triple teams, etc.

[DPG21920]

Well it was just an debate I was having with some friends, and I wanted yalls take.

[A Bomb]

comparing bynum to howard is like comparing sabonis to shaq, do you prefer skillful player going to work to get his stats or do you prefer a guy who uses body and athleticism to abuse their opponents...

is ODEN shooting with his right hand or did he stay with the left hand? dunno wtf is wrong with him but his not living up to the no.1 pick



Sabonis in his prime could be argued that he was the greatest center of all time. He was suppose to be a 7-3 Larry bird with strength.

I think you're underestimating Bynums athleticism, because he's so long and the type of game he plays. Bynum had a 33' verticle coming out of college at 300lbs of babyfat, and his agility is not that far away from Dwights, as evidenced by his matchup against bosh, he completely shut him down. Bynum didn't even get into foul trouble either which is what's truly amazing at his size and age.

Oden is fine even if his only baskets come from dunks, defensively no one will come close to him and his defense alone should be well worth that number 1 pick.

[Bob Lanier]

I do not think he has shown consistent jumphook at all.
I didn't phrase that the way I should've. He has a very reliable jumphook from about 10 feet on the right block, which he usually sets up with a fake drop step.

But hell, Melvin Ely can score 80% of the time from his spot on the floor too. Obviously Howard has more to his game than Ely, but he doesn't have a diverse bag of tricks yet.


I do not know about the end of the year, but for my money, Bynum right now looks like he will be the better player long-term.
I agree with that.

[Allanon]

Great topic, probably one of the better debates I've seen here.

I'm off to bed, g'nite.

[A Bomb]

Ya, but people kept bringing up Shaq as an example of Dwight, but when Shaq came into league he was muchhhhhhhhh more skilled in almost every area of the game.

Shaq is 7-1 with freakish long arms and strength. Dwight is 6-10,6-11 tops.

[Bob Lanier]

Bynum's the best defender of the three.
I disagree with this. Yao can't be matched up with small, face-up power forwards like Bynum and Howard sometimes can, nor will he block as many shots, but he's better overall at anchoring a team's defense. His positioning and understanding of angles is superb.

[A Bomb]

I luv you guys for finallly giving Bynum some props. The only reason I started to post here was, because so many people were bashing Bynum. Actually I got bashed more than Bynum for making a case for him.:lol

[TDMVPDPOY]

bynum shutting down bosh? NO.

bosh is like fukn kg....fukn stupid shooters, just force them to shoot instead of scoring in the low post for shitty % shots....if they have an off night? it be way fukn off that it looks like someone has shut them down, but in fact they shut themselves down cause of the limited offensive skill set they have by being a jumpshot bigmen. jump shooting bigman without lowpost moves are shit.....bosh has good range, but not efficient like dirk.....

[A Bomb]

I disagree with this. Yao can't be matched up with small, face-up power forwards like Bynum and Howard sometimes can, nor will he block as many shots, but he's better overall at anchoring a team's defense. His positioning and understanding of angles is superb.


With his lack of speed and conditioning he'll have major problems against pick and rolls and quicker players. I also feel players challenging Yao more than the other 2 also.

[A Bomb]

bynum shutting down bosh? NO.

bosh is like fukn kg....fukn stupid shooters, just force them to shoot instead of scoring in the low post for shitty % shots....if they have an off night? it be way fukn off that it looks like someone has shut them down, but in fact they shut themselves down cause of the limited offensive skill set they have by being a jumpshot bigmen. jump shooting bigman without lowpost moves are shit.....bosh has good range, but not efficient like dirk.....

If you watched the game, bynum shut Bosh down. Bosh couldn't drive against him, couldn't post him, towards the latter parts of the game bosh was shooting fadeaway jumpers from the top of the key. It wasn't as if Bosh was missing easy shots.

[TDMVPDPOY]

but i must admit out of all the players mention so far, non of them are on the same level as rasho nesterovic :D

[A Bomb]

but i must admit out of all the players mention so far, non of them are on the same level as rasho nesterovic :D


Actually his 18-20 footers were automatic against the Lakers the other day. Bynum shuts down Bosh, but he can't guard Rasho:lol

[m33p0]

but i must admit out of all the players mention so far, non of them are on the same level as rasho nesterovic :D
i agree. rasho has size, skill and strength. :hat

as for howard: he reminds me alot of daryl dawkins. all he does is dunk.

[TDMVPDPOY]

ppl are so fast to jump on the wagon calling oden a busts, but if you look at the hawks marvin williams.....what are your opinions? ppl didnt jump on the bust wagon for his first year cause he was still developing, but that did put a dent into the teams future of contending had they drafted a PG instead williams/cp3? And i still think MV is not all that imo.....

[A Bomb]

i agree. rasho has size, skill and strength. :hat

as for howard: he reminds me alot of daryl dawkins. all he does is dunk.

Howard is much better than the chocolate thunder, but no one could break backboards like him tho.:lol

[TDMVPDPOY]

another good comparison for howard is boozer.....

both players with huge bodies, dwight power athleticism, while BOOZER uses his body and layups and shots inside without rely on athleticism.....

[A Bomb]

ppl are so fast to jump on the wagon calling oden a busts, but if you look at the hawks marvin williams.....what are your opinions? ppl didnt jump on the bust wagon for his first year cause he was still developing, but that did put a dent into the teams future of contending had they drafted a PG instead williams/cp3? And i still think MV is not all that imo.....


Hell no Oden if far from a bust. His overall impact on the defensive/rebounding end for his team is tremendous with him in the lineup. I'll still take Oden over D12 right now as long as he's injury free. I don't care how many points he scores, he will change outcome of games just from his defensive/rebounding presence.

[JamStone]

If Dwight Howard didn't have much skill, he'd be more like Ben Wallace. While his skill set still needs work, it's not as limited as some might suggest. He does get by a lot on strength and athleticism, but he also uses coordination, timing, balance, reaction time, and footwork in concert with his strength, athleticism, and agility. There have been other basketball players with elite athleticism that weren't able to do the things Howard does or put up the numbers he does. He's not the most skillful big man in the game, but he is not as limited as some suggest in the skill department.

[TDMVPDPOY]

Hell no Oden if far from a bust. His overall impact on the defensive/rebounding end for his team is tremendous with him in the lineup. I'll still take Oden over D12 right now as long as he's injury free. I don't care how many points he scores, he will change outcome of games just from his defensive/rebounding presence.

then whattabout omeka who doing exactly that playing a defensive role only on the bobcats.....what you think of his progess so far? ppl look down on him so far when compared to d12

[A Bomb]

then whattabout omeka who doing exactly that playing a defensive role only on the bobcats.....what you think of his progess so far? ppl look down on him so far when compared to d12

Okafur is 6-9, Oden is a legit 7 footer. Take 3 inches off of every top bigman in the league and well you see what I'm getting at.

[Bob Lanier]

If Dwight Howard didn't have much skill, he'd be more like Ben Wallace.
http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20081130/capt.ad9cbb1044d64b31ae0c5d8c79a766b4.trail_blazer s_pistons_basketball_dtp107.jpg

If Ben Wallace could hold onto the ball, he could have scored 13 points a night with the Pistons without much of a problem.

But you're right; 13 isn't 21. Although I wouldn't oversell the "many other athletic players" argument; there are a lot of Stromile Swifts and Amir Johnsons with his agility, and a lot of Rasho Nesterovics and Kendrick Perkinses with his bulk, but few who have both.

It's hard to be a bad basketball player with those kinds of gifts. It's to Howard's credit that he's become more than not-bad, but he's not yet great.

[Bob Lanier]

Okafor's a pretty good defender, but he's short, slow-footed and clumsy.

[A Bomb]

If Dwight Howard didn't have much skill, he'd be more like Ben Wallace. While his skill set still needs work, it's not as limited as some might suggest. He does get by a lot on strength and athleticism, but he also uses coordination, timing, balance, reaction time, and footwork in concert with his strength, athleticism, and agility. There have been other basketball players with elite athleticism that weren't able to do the things Howard does or put up the numbers he does. He's not the most skillful big man in the game, but he is not as limited as some suggest in the skill department.

Ben Wallace is 6-6,6-7 :lol If he was 6-10 man oh man.

[wireonfire]

Bynum is not even as good a low post defender as Kwame. Jackson always started Kwame when playing the Rockets.

[mystargtr34]

If Dwight Howard didn't have much skill, he'd be more like Ben Wallace. While his skill set still needs work, it's not as limited as some might suggest. He does get by a lot on strength and athleticism, but he also uses coordination, timing, balance, reaction time, and footwork in concert with his strength, athleticism, and agility. There have been other basketball players with elite athleticism that weren't able to do the things Howard does or put up the numbers he does. He's not the most skillful big man in the game, but he is not as limited as some suggest in the skill department.

Beat me to it. Dwight has pretty good footwork, he gets position and almost always beats the defender to his spot, normally to the middle, and even throws in a lefty hook now and then. He has nice touch close to the basket too. Hes alot more skilled than people make him out to be here.

[HeyIt'sMe]

Ben Wallace is 6-6,6-7 :lol If he was 6-10 man oh man.

Wallace has zero coordination and the worst touch I've ever seen. If he was 6'10, he'd still be a terrible offensive player.

I also don't see Bynum getting to Howard's level, but that's a story for another time.

The guy is putting up 21.5/14.5/4.1 thus far this season. If Oden and Bynum ever even approach those all around numbers as the first option on their teams, Lakers and Blazers fans should be thrilled.

[Tmac&Luther]

hey 2pts is 2pts...doesnt matter how you gett hem whether its from dunks or putbacks....

It doesn't matter if 2pts is 2pts......the question was is he a skillful player.

There's god given talent and then there's skill. One you're born with and a skill is something that is "learned".

Dwight Howard has the "god given talent" is spades, he might be the most physically talented player in the league (right up there with LeBron), but he's not very "skilled" yet. He needs to work on his post game.....he's very underdeveloped in that department.

[Tmac&Luther]

Hes alot more skilled than people make him out to be here.

Which is why pretty much everytime he goes up against another quality big man that has the strength to keep him away from smashing range he doesn't do so well. Luckily for Howard though, there isn't alot of quality big men.....especially out east where he just can beast on people every night.

[JamStone]

Ben Wallace is 6-6,6-7 :lol If he was 6-10 man oh man.

Dwight Howard is really only 6-9, yet he dominates a lot of legit or close to actual 7-footers.

If Ben Wallace was a legit 6-9 or 6-10, he still wouldn't have been close to the offensive force Dwight Howard is. Ben Wallace has very poor hand-eye coordination as it applies to an offensive skill set. He has trouble holding onto the ball even though he has average size hands, not tiny hands like Kwame Brown. Ben doesn't have any kind of footwork on the offensive end. He looks clumsy with the ball. Howard is probably about 2 inches taller than Ben Wallace, but then again, Ben Wallace has extraordinarily long arms for his height.

If Ben Wallace was 6-9 or 6-10, he might have been able to average 10 ppg. That's still a far cry from the 20 or so ppg that Dwight is able to score on a nightly basis. Added height for Ben Wallace would have actually helped his defense more than his offense, and his defense didn't need much help anyway.

[JamStone]

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20081130/capt.ad9cbb1044d64b31ae0c5d8c79a766b4.trail_blazer s_pistons_basketball_dtp107.jpg

If Ben Wallace could hold onto the ball, he could have scored 13 points a night with the Pistons without much of a problem.

But you're right; 13 isn't 21. Although I wouldn't oversell the "many other athletic players" argument; there are a lot of Stromile Swifts and Amir Johnsons with his agility, and a lot of Rasho Nesterovics and Kendrick Perkinses with his bulk, but few who have both.

It's hard to be a bad basketball player with those kinds of gifts. It's to Howard's credit that he's become more than not-bad, but he's not yet great.

"Not a bad basketball player" or just a "good basketball player" is one thing when a player possesses those gifts. Dwight Howard is not just "not a bad basketball player." He's dominant. Stromile Swift is a great example and I almost used him. He obviously doesn't have the bulk and strength, but his athleticism is very comparable. And, look at Emeka Okafor. He's able to dominate defensively with his size and strength and above average athleticism (not elite, but above average), but he is closer to Ben Wallace than D12 on offense. DeSagana Diop, size, strength, and athleticism are all elite. Where is that kid Mohamed Saer Sene who had an unbelievable size, strength, athleticism combination a few drafts ago? Look at Ronny Turiaf who has above average athleticism and strength and he's a role player. I grant you that Dwight Howard has world class elite level athleticism and strength, so it's hard to find a spot on comparison. But, even with that, to be able to put up 20+ points takes more than just those things. Cuz, shit, if it's just about size and strength and athleticism, some NBA teams needed to sign the Undertaker from the WWE years ago.

[MI21]

Howard has some skills alright. In the obvious skills such as shooting, dribbling, passing and so on he needs work, but he has some of the small, yet very important parts of the game down.

He has incredible timing on blocked shots, which is a great skill for a bigman to have. He gets his blocks without sacrificing rebounding position because if he goes for it, he usually gets it. He has fantastic hands on both ends. Another underated part of any bigmans game. He can use his left hand around the hoop very well, probably better than his right hand. His power move left in the post for the baby left hook is actually very effective. He has pretty good footwork as well, doesn't travel when using spins or on quick steps to the hoop. Obviously his power game and athleticism is still a skill, and we all know about that.

The guy has skill, he just has no range at all and probably the worst thing, absolutely no handles. If he had handles like Amare Stoudamire, he would average 25 a game even with his limited post moves and little range. Fix the passing out of double teams and dribbling, and all of a sudden the lack of post moves will not matter.

[SpursDynasty]

I was having this argument with many people today. I said Dwight is a beast but he does not have great skill. He cannot shoot, his low post moves are not that developed or diverse and his defense is only good.

I said he relies only on athleticism, but he is still a force because his athleticism is off the charts. They said I was crazy and kind of mis-construed what I was saying, taking it as bashing him. What does everyone think?


Dwight Howard is probably among the least skilled in the league. I'd take Matt Bonner and Jacque Vaughn on my team before Dwight Howard.

[DPG21920]

Dwight Howard is probably among the least skilled in the league. I'd take Matt Bonner and Jacque Vaughn on my team before Dwight Howard.

That is just dumb, and that was not the point of the thread. I would take Dwight over most. It was just the differing definitions of skill. Jamstone and some others think certain things are skills where as I see it differently. But to deny the impact Dwight has is just silly.