The Global War on Terror: 7 years later

[RobinsontoDuncan]

It has dawned on me over the course of the past few years that the September 11th attacks have been widely misunderstood by the vast majority of the world, with Americans being especially oblivious to the events of that day.

Terrorism is an endemic part of human society. Britain, Ireland, Spain, Russia, Germany, France, India, Pakistan, Latin America, the Middle East, and large swaths of Africa have all been dealing with the effects of terrorism for the majority of this past century. The United States has historically sought integration over marginalization (with the obvious caveat that some groups are integrated much faster than others) and litigation over violence. The fact that Americans have never experienced an organized and systematic terrorist campaign is primarily a product of the construction of American national identity and the way marginalized groups seek empowerment in American society.

The precise definition of a “nation” is the geographical area that encompasses an ethnic or cultural population. The United States does not have a monolithic ethnicity, and American nationalism is better understood as glorified statism. The cult of the enlightenment that our founding fathers developed between 1776 and 1789 is the ideological bond that informs the American conception of national identity, and this overarching ideology has manifested itself in the constitutionalism we know today. This unique brand of nationalism has created a culture in which state validation has far more psychological power than cultural validation, and it is the reason why ethnic, class, and social minorities have sought governmental recognition instead of societal recognition. This trend is exemplified by the civil rights movement, the feminist movement, and in contemporary society, the gay rights movement.

In most other societies, where national identities have no overarching connection with the framework of the state itself, marginalized groups are more likely to challenge the state or dominant cultural norms violently. This is because a society that lacks institutions like the Supreme Court or the Constitution, institutions that all segments of society are ideologically connected to, has more trouble producing centralized normative statements that effect genuine shifts in cultural attitudes.

On September 11th, 2001, terrorists from across the world organized to destroy the greatest symbol of American economic hegemony (aptly named the World Trade Center) and to partially destroy the greatest symbol of American military power, the Pentagon. In the 7 years since, not only has the US failed to destroy terrorism, but it has managed to cripple itself militarily through misguided wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Tools the government has sought in response to terrorism, such as the Patriot Act and the FISA amendment, have served to roll back the crux of American national identity, enlightenment idealism, and the American economy is on its knees. In the mean time images of American planes dropping cluster bombs on poor villages in Afghanistan, and American mercenaries blindly shooting up crowded market places in Iraq have given fresh generations of poor, desperate people in the Middle East many new reasons to hate America. None of them have to do with our “freedom.”

The reason Bush was able to convince everyone that terrorists were attacking us because they hated freedom is due to fear and parochial obliviousness, as this attitude is clearly not a rational or empirical evaluation. Bush does actually believe that Islamic terrorism is little more than freedom hating, but this is the product of a snap judgment made in a time of immense personal trauma, and it was shaped primarily by Bush’s limited understanding of the world in 2001 and his lack of intellectual curiosity. The real truth is, Islamic terrorists come from many of the most oppressive societies on earth. Actual political freedom is laughable in these parts of the world, and most of the world’s Muslims are more concerned with survival than tangible political rights. Whether or not we chose to admit it, the world system that we Americans benefit from is thought to come at the expense of these people. Even if you don’t think this is true, you ought to know that those poor Palestinian kids who grow up knowing little besides violence do believe it, and these days they have all the more reason to.


Americans will have to realize that terrorism cannot be defeated with bombs before we can get ourselves out of this mess. The Global War on Terror is not a war, it’s misguided military adventurism. I just hope a smarter America will be more rational the next time a major terrorist attack occurs, because we cannot afford a bigger mess than the one we have now.

[clambake]

characterizing every conflict as terrorism is a marketing tool.

what we did in ireland is the product of another people violently forcing their will upon us.

[DarkReign]

That was extremely well said.

:tu

[RobinsontoDuncan]

characterizing every conflict as terrorism is a marketing tool.

I strongly agree


what we did in ireland is the product of another people violently forcing their will upon us.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this. If by we you mean Americans, I'm not sure how we were involved.

If by we you mean Irish Catholics or Irish protestants, than I agree--both sides were being played by the British through their oldest, and most effective tool: divide and concur.


That was extremely well said.

:tu

Thanks.

For whatever reason my posts on these forums tend to be ignored, so I wouldn't be surprised if few people actually comment on this thread--but I feel like this is the kind of discussion we Americans need to have.

I was hoping that Obama would take the opportunity to originate this discussion at some point, but my misguided judgment that his hawkishness was merely a cover to induce the center to vote for him is proving false.

Perhaps the mere passing of time will suffice--Americans were scared after September 11th and they reacted in a way that reflected that blind fear. Now that we see that TERRORISM is in fact terrorism (little more than a momentary disruption in the cycle of real life) perhaps we will begin to react differently when new crises hits.

Living in the shadow of fear only envelops the world in violence. Learning to overcome fear is what allows us to create a better future. Mahatma Gandhi's greatest triumph was his ability to dismiss fear...Fear of the other, fear of violence, fear of death, and the fear of evil.

3 billion people live on $2 a day. If half the world is barely scrapping by, Americans need to ask themselves “What in the hell are we so scared of?”

[clambake]

very good open perspective.

i from belfast. the "troubles" were not the "real" problem.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

very good open perspective.

i from belfast. the "troubles" were not the "real" problem.

And after peace was established we found out what that problem was-- the perpetuation of inequality which was based on a blind hatred of one's neighbors.

This is how history can be a powerful tool of disorder. When we live our lives vicariously through those that have been wronged in the past we forget to make the world better for the innocent of the future.

When I hear the words "we must never forget it" in regard to the holocaust, I think the world learned the wrong lesson. We must forget the holocaust. We must forget all of it, the bigotry, the atrocity, the unimaginable evil of it all. We must forget it and make sure that we don't continue to live it.

The problem with remembering IT the way we do, is that we nostalgisize it. We problematize the atrocities of this world to such a degree that we find ourselves thinking that we would do anything to go back and "fix it." We have to "fix" the holocaust so we will do anything to make sure Israel is always absolved of any real guilt in the Palestinian concentration camps. We have to "fix" September 11th so we make sure to invade Afghanistan and Iraq.

How many times have you heard World War II and Hitler invoked as a justification for some irrational action today? When was the last time you heard someone compare the Sudanese government to the Third Reich? I bet that number (if there is one) pales in comparison to the number of times you have heard Saddam Hussein compared to Hitler.

[Anti.Hero]

Big government will do far more damage than any foreign terrorist could.

[MannyIsGod]

Big government will do far more damage than any foreign terrorist could.

I was afraid you'd miss this thread with your 1-3 sentence tibit of poorly placed information. You fit in perfectly in a soundbite driven nation.

[doobs]

:sleep

You wasted a lot of time writing that drivel. Time you could have spent fighting terrorists.

[DarkReign]

:sleep

You wasted a lot of time writing that drivel. Time you could have spent fighting terrorists.

I hope this post is heaped in sarcasm, otherwise...

[101A]

So, what should we have done?

Should we have hit Al Queda in Afghanistan? - cluster bombs in villages are an inevitable consequence of that, after all.

Iraq is another question, obviously - and EVEN Bush has admitted recently that over-estimating Saddam's WMD stockpiles is a great regret of his.

So, are you piling on Iraq, or are you debating EVEN the response in Afganistan? One of those positions is very debatable, the other doesn't fit within what you originally posted - because, ultimately, the "Global War on Terror" comes down to two military campaigns.

[BacktoBasics]

I was afraid you'd miss this thread with your 1-3 sentence tibit of poorly placed information. You fit in perfectly in a soundbite driven nation.Sadly you overlooked the fact that he made a good point...in one sentence. Talk about poorly placed information.

[MannyIsGod]

Sadly you overlooked the fact that he made a good point...in one sentence. Talk about poorly placed information.

Nuclear war will do far worse damage than big government.

I make great points. Score one for me.

[BacktoBasics]

Nuclear war will do far worse damage than big government.

I make great points. Score one for me.You've been doing so well lately with looking at the big picture. I've even thought of turning the page to a Manny B2B friendship and then you go right back down the narrow pipe of stupidity again.

[MannyIsGod]

The sun exploding will do far worse damage than nuclear war.

I can do this all day.

[BacktoBasics]

The sun exploding will do far worse damage than nuclear war.

I can do this all day.
Now that makes sense.

[MannyIsGod]

Of course it makes sense. Its an extremely good point. And anyone here who thinks Obama is going to successfully stop the Sun from exploding is out of their minds.

[BacktoBasics]

Of course it makes sense. Its an extremely good point. And anyone here who thinks Obama is going to successfully stop the Sun from exploding is out of their minds.He didn't say Obama he said "big government". Have or are we not seeing the bad side effects of large government right now.

[MannyIsGod]

I never said he said anything about Obama. What we're seeing today isn't as a result of "big" government. But what is really stupid is how big government had absolutely no place in thread. Its like me dropping into a Tpark dating thread and all of a sudden dropping a one line remark about how Tpark dying of AIDs would be worse then missing out on a BJ from a chick from A&M. And then after my remark when someone points out how retarded my post is you come in and post "Well Amy has a good point, and he made it in one sentence".

[MannyIsGod]

Thread hijack complete btw.

[BacktoBasics]

I never said he said anything about Obama. What we're seeing today isn't as a result of "big" government. But what is really stupid is how big government had absolutely no place in thread. Its like me dropping into a Tpark dating thread and all of a sudden dropping a one line remark about how Tpark dying of AIDs would be worse then missing out on a BJ from a chick from A&M. And then after my remark when someone points out how retarded my post is you come in and post "Well Amy has a good point, and he made it in one sentence".He pointed out the destructive nature of "big government" in a thread about the destructive nature or lack thereof with Terrorism and notions around it.

How is that not relevant.

[BacktoBasics]

Thread hijack complete btw.I know I'm enormously bored.

Good original post though. I liked what the man/women had to say.

[SnakeBoy]

The sun exploding will do far worse damage than nuclear war.

I can do this all day.

Well then what will do more damage than the sun exploding?

[spurster]

The real truth is, Islamic terrorists come from many of the most oppressive societies on earth. Actual political freedom is laughable in these parts of the world, and most of the world’s Muslims are more concerned with survival than tangible political rights. Whether or not we chose to admit it, the world system that we Americans benefit from is thought to come at the expense of these people.


I am not convinced of a lot of this. Do terrorists come from the most oppressive societies? I do not think OBL was much oppressed.

I do not think terrorists are fighting against oppression and for freedom. It seems they just want different groups to be oppressed.

Most of world's Muslims concerned with survival? It's not clear to me that this is the case or that Muslims are especially poor compared to other groups.

I think a lot of it is that Islam is going through (again?) an Enlightenment phase, which is opposed by many. People's sufferings are blamed on not being fundamental enough. To fix it, you need to force society to adhere to your version of Islam. The problem is that corrupt and inept governments are not offering appealing alternatives.

[DarrinS]

Question for the OP:


Why? Why did the hijackers do what they did on 911?


Your post is very verbose, but doesn't say much.

[DarrinS]

When we live our lives vicariously through the eyes of the innocent that have been wronged in the past we forget to make the world better for the innocent of the future.


Huh?




When I hear the words "we must never forget it" in regard to the holocaust, I think the world learned the wrong lesson. We must forget the holocaust. We must forget all of it, the bigotry, the atrocity, the unimaginable evil of it all. We must forget it and make sure that we don't continue to live it.



Wrong. The point is to be vigilant and not let it happen again.

[doobs]

I hope this post is heaped in sarcasm, otherwise...

I was joking about him fighting terrorists.

Pure drivel, though.

[BacktoBasics]

Huh?





He's saying and I could be wrong that by us acting on behalf of the innocent victims in the past we're cheating the innocent of the future out of a better more reformed life by continuing to propogate destruction in the name of terror.

Again I could be wrong.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

So, what should we have done?

Should we have hit Al Queda in Afghanistan? - cluster bombs in villages are an inevitable consequence of that, after all.

Iraq is another question, obviously - and EVEN Bush has admitted recently that over-estimating Saddam's WMD stockpiles is a great regret of his.

So, are you piling on Iraq, or are you debating EVEN the response in Afganistan? One of those positions is very debatable, the other doesn't fit within what you originally posted - because, ultimately, the "Global War on Terror" comes down to two military campaigns.

What we should have done was grieved.

What country did you want the US to invade after the Oklahoma City bombing?

How about the Atlanta Olympics?

We have been in Afghanistan for seven years, and in that time the Taliban has become more popular than before we got there, we have killed thousands of innocent people in our aerial bombing raids, left an uncountable number of unexploded ordinance around the country which have become de facto landminds, and lost hundreds of good soldiers along the way. None of this even begins to discuss the cost of being there.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, there are some horrible things that happen in this world, but sometimes its just better to stop and think before we jump to the conclusion that there is some great way to get revenge.

Look, the people that orchestrated September 11th they're all dead; they all died on the planes.

What exactly did we accomplish by over reacting the way we did? Yes I said it, we overreacted. Nothing that has happened in the past 7 years has brought any of the 3,000 innocent Americans that were killed that day back to life.

The trouble with terrorism is, you lose once you become afraid. In 2004 farmers in Nebraska cared more about Terrorism than any other issue. No self respecting terrorist would take the time to kill some nice guy on a tractor in Nebraska...what the hell is scary about that?

---------------------------------------------------------------
I'll tell you what though, I wouldn't mind staying in Afghanistan if they change a few things. It would cost half the money for the US to set up a legal licensing operation for the production of Afghani oppium (which happens to be the only cash crop that can be harvested in that country) as it does to do 10 bomber raids. This would help combat the world wide morphine shortage, and allow poor farmers to stop share cropping for the Taliban. The Taliban has been running a successful drug smuggling and sex trafficking ring since we got there.

Do that and get some of the mines we laid during the 80s out of the ground and I wouldn't mind, I have a feeling the Afghanis would appreciate it to.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

He's saying and I could be wrong that by us acting on behalf of the innocent victims in the past we're cheating the innocent of the future out of a better more reformed life by continuing to propogate destruction in the name of terror.

Again I could be wrong.

yeah you got it, maybe I shouldn't have used the word eyes--i could see why my statement could have been slightly confusing.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

I am not convinced of a lot of this. Do terrorists come from the most oppressive societies? I do not think OBL was much oppressed.

I do not think terrorists are fighting against oppression and for freedom. It seems they just want different groups to be oppressed.

Most of world's Muslims concerned with survival? It's not clear to me that this is the case or that Muslims are especially poor compared to other groups.

I think a lot of it is that Islam is going through (again?) an Enlightenment phase, which is opposed by many. People's sufferings are blamed on not being fundamental enough. To fix it, you need to force society to adhere to your version of Islam. The problem is that corrupt and inept governments are not offering appealing alternatives.

Yes, the vast majority of Muslims do live in oppressive societies. Some of them are more oppressed economically than politically, but if you were to take a look at the map of the most densely populated Muslim areas you will find poverty and oppression.

Just off hand, which of these countries would you like to live in?

Sudan
Pakistan
Somalia
Bangladesh
Afghanistan
Egypt
Libya
Lebanon
Indonesia
Nigeria
Syria
West Bank/Gaza
Algeria

[DarrinS]

What we should have done was grieved.

What country did you want the US to invade after the Oklahoma City bombing?

How about the Atlanta Olympics?

We have been in Afghanistan for seven years, and in that time the Taliban has become more popular than before we got there, we have killed thousands of innocent people in our aerial bombing raids, left an uncountable number of unexploded ordinance around the country which have become de facto landminds, and lost hundreds of good soldiers along the way. None of this even begins to discuss the cost of being there.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, there are some horrible things that happen in this world, but sometimes its just better to stop and think before we jump to the conclusion that there is some great way to get revenge.

Look, the people that orchestrated September 11th they're all dead; they all died on the planes.

What exactly did we accomplish by over reacting the way we did? Yes I said it, we overreacted. Nothing that has happened in the past 7 years has brought any of the 3,000 innocent Americans that were killed that day back to life.

The trouble with terrorism is, you lose once you become afraid. In 2004 farmers in Nebraska cared more about Terrorism than any other issue. No self respecting terrorist would take the time to kill some nice guy on a tractor in Nebraska...what the hell is scary about that?

---------------------------------------------------------------
I'll tell you what though, I wouldn't mind staying in Afghanistan if they change a few things. It would cost half the money for the US to set up a legal licensing operation for the production of Afghani oppium (which happens to be the only cash crop that can be harvested in that country) as it does to do 10 bomber raids. This would help combat the world wide morphine shortage, and allow poor farmers to stop share cropping for the Taliban. The Taliban has been running a successful drug smuggling and sex trafficking ring since we got there.

Do that and get some of the mines we laid during the 80s out of the ground and I wouldn't mind, I have a feeling the Afghanis would appreciate it to.



A short video for you.

l17LmCEp1QI

[Wild Cobra]

I've listened to Brigitte Gabriel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigitte_Gabriel) both on TV and inverviews on the radio. I have meant to buy her books sometime as well. She is an expert on the subject or terrorism. Here are some more available clips:

Y5T796B7mcA

VfUGjBPUMfI

-8fa9yKQeTY

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Apparently there are a lot of "experts" on terrorism these days. Didn't notice too many of them before September 11th, and I'm not really sure what one has to do to become an expert in terrorism anyway--perhaps take a class on molatov cocktails 101.

The people who are really experts at terrorism are the ones that deal with it criminally instead of militarily, collateral damage never helps an anti-terrorism effort.

And those videos of Ms. Gabrielle you posted are the perfect example of naivety on the part of our political structure.

There is no military solution to radical Islam. Radical Islam isn't all that radical anyway--it's not so much that these people are incredibly devote Muslims. The overwhelming majority of Muslims are poor and uneducated, and any education they do have would come in the form of religion. That means that most Muslims would believe in the kind of orthodoxy that scares the living daylights out of everyone.

Radical Islam is really just a violent backlash against a system of economic and political realities that make day to day living an incredible burden in most of the world. If people would stop listening to the religious rhetoric of these terrorists and start listening to political rhetoric--they are denouncing the west's opulence while the rest of the world suffers.

If your expert on terrorism ever met an actual terrorist, or ever set foot in you average middle eastern slum, she wouldn't pretend that we can stop it. If you want to know what the average terrorist looks like, think of a young looking boy, age 17-25, kind of skinny, probably a little quiet, and very poor.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

A short video for you.

l17LmCEp1QI

Yeah, a good point. Anyone here been to Europe in the past few years?

Well, if you thought Muslims in Europe got a raw deal before 9/11 and the new attitude that overt bigotry was socially acceptable, you should see the place now!

What do you think all that mess was about in Paris a few years ago? British Muslims are just like French Muslims, with one or two more token success stories.

These people can't get good jobs, they can't integrate into societies that make no secret of the fact that they don't want immigrants around, and they can't go back to a home country that doesn't have the slightest promise of economic opportunity available.

You wonder why they're bitter?

[spurster]

I am not convinced of a lot of this. Do terrorists come from the most oppressive societies? I do not think OBL was much oppressed.



Yes, the vast majority of Muslims do live in oppressive societies. Some of them are more oppressed economically than politically, but if you were to take a look at the map of the most densely populated Muslim areas you will find poverty and oppression.


I didn't quite get across what I was thinking. My impression from what I have heard and read is that many of these terrorists come from the more educated parts of their societies. Generally, more educated corresponds to less oppressed, not "most oppressed". Also, I'll repeat that these terrorists aren't interested in eliminating oppression, just oppressing the other guys as well as women and non-Muslims in general.

[doobs]

Poverty leads to terrorism . . . bullshit. There are a lot of poor countries in the world. Why is it that international terrorism seems to be significant issue only with the Muslimworld? That's the question.

We've overreacted and exacted vengeance . . . bullshit. Don't tell me the guys who attacked us all died on the planes on 9/11. Are you really that dense?

There are many reasons to use force: punishment/deterrence, national defense, prevention, preemption, and, yes, revenge. Don't you think that maybe--just maybe--we went in to Afghanistan to punish the Taliban for harboring Al Qaeda, thereby deterring other countries from doing the same. Maybe we went in to disrupt Al Qaeda's pending operations, thereby acting in national defense. Seriously, what are we supposed to do? Throw our hands up? Not be scared and hope for the best? Wouldn't it be irresponsible to do nothing?

Agree or disagree with what we've done, that's your right. But you can't just say that we've been looking for vengeance. It makes you sound like an asshole.

[DarkReign]

Poverty leads to terrorism . . . bullshit. There are a lot of poor countries in the world. Why is it that international terrorism seems to be significant issue only with the Muslimworld? That's the question.

Poverty, IMO, does lead to terrorism. Terrorism is not a solely Muslim problem, either.

The poor, jobless, uneducated and perople with no hope of having it any better do not always become religious zealots and terrorists.

But there is a portion of the Muslim faith that gives the millions of uneducated, jobless poor someone to blame and a war to wage in the name of their plight.

Someone used OBL as an example. Really...OBL. Dude lived the privelaged life. If he's so damn badass, why hasnt he strapped a dynamite vest on? Or hijacked a plane? Or whatever?

Because he isnt stupid. He isnt uneducated. He isnt jobless or poor. He has millions of potential recruits, dumb enough and desperate enough to do that shit for him.


We've overreacted and exacted vengeance . . . bullshit. Don't tell me the guys who attacked us all died on the planes on 9/11. Are you really that dense?

Agreed. But I dont think thats what he was saying.


There are many reasons to use force: punishment/deterrence, national defense, prevention, preemption, and, yes, revenge. Don't you think that maybe--just maybe--we went in to Afghanistan to punish the Taliban for harboring Al Qaeda, thereby deterring other countries from doing the same. Maybe we went in to disrupt Al Qaeda's pending operations, thereby acting in national defense. Seriously, what are we supposed to do? Throw our hands up? Not be scared and hope for the best? Wouldn't it be irresponsible to do nothing?

IMO, Afghanistan = Good response

Iraq = Worst response.

"Not be scared and hope for the best?" How about, not be chicken-shit suburbanites more afraid to fly than ever, changing our daily lives and capitulating to our government in attempt to make us safe from a marginal threat.

Were we attacked? Yes. What is the likelihood it will happen again? I dont know, but I'll be the pessimist and say "likely". Should I change my life or infringe my rights in an attempt to stave off said attack? Only if youre a fucking coward who is afraid of your own shadow.

9/11 was a tragedy, yes. It was horrible. But its not a reason to change anything for besides tighter airport security and increased border security. Going into Afghanistan is/was fine. Iraq was daddy-revenge, nothing more.


Agree or disagree with what we've done, that's your right. But you can't just say that we've been looking for vengeance. It makes you sound like an asshole.

And if the ever-changing definition of this "War on Terror" starts to spread into other nations, middle east or otherwise, what is it then?

Its either revenge or preventative war, an invention of Hitler.

Either way, its the wrong approach on every level of intelligence.

[RandomGuy]

In her first book Gabriel discusses her experiences as a Maronite Christian living in Lebanon during the civil war between Lebanese Christians and Muslims in the 1970s. She describes the story of her family and her childhood, hiding in a bomb shelter. She details her opinions that her country's inherent multicultural acceptance of all faiths and cultures including the then dominant Lebanese Christians, led to Lebanon's ruin by the continuous attacks from indigenous Muslims and immigrant Palestinians, determined to destroy the infidel (Christian) communities.

Hmm.

I will say that from everything I have seen, modern Arab culture in general tends to have a pretty strong racist streak.

One only has to look to the way they treat the immigrant workers in their countries to see this. Don't just look to their conditions, but look to any quotes from the natives "on the street" about the guest workers. Shameful on both counts.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

I didn't quite get across what I was thinking. My impression from what I have heard and read is that many of these terrorists come from the more educated parts of their societies. Generally, more educated corresponds to less oppressed, not "most oppressed". Also, I'll repeat that these terrorists aren't interested in eliminating oppression, just oppressing the other guys as well as women and non-Muslims in general.

Yes there are certainly educated terrorists out there. They usually aren't the type to blow themselves up though. I suppose if that's the image you have of terrorism, you had better ask yourself if there is anyway to wage a serious war against educated, intelligent, people that have such religious zealotry they are willing to kill themselves for their beliefs.

Just out of curiosity, did you know that educated Marxists used to use terrorism all around Europe for most of the past century in an attempt to change capitalism?

How about fascist terrorist, they exist too.

But if you seriously think that most terrorists are educated, you are sadly mistaken. Most acts of terrorism happen in far away countries, and you probably never hear about them. Do you know how many bombs go off every day in Kashmir? Quite a few.


We've overreacted and exacted vengeance . . . bullshit. Don't tell me the guys who attacked us all died on the planes on 9/11. Are you really that dense?

There are many reasons to use force: punishment/deterrence, national defense, prevention, preemption, and, yes, revenge. Don't you think that maybe--just maybe--we went in to Afghanistan to punish the Taliban for harboring Al Qaeda, thereby deterring other countries from doing the same. Maybe we went in to disrupt Al Qaeda's pending operations, thereby acting in national defense. Seriously, what are we supposed to do? Throw our hands up? Not be scared and hope for the best? Wouldn't it be irresponsible to do nothing?

Agree or disagree with what we've done, that's your right. But you can't just say that we've been looking for vengeance. It makes you sound like an asshole.

Sounding like an asshole is always a risk when it comes to telling the truth, but yes, that is exactly what happened. Americans woke up on September 12, 2001 and they were angry. They ran to their local Wal Mart, got some flag paraphernalia, and waited for the government to tell them who to hate.

I think the problem here is that people don't realize what Afghanistan was. It was a failed state, it's government (if you consider the Taliban an actual government) wasn't recognized by any other state.

Do you think Al Qaeda is a monolithic entity? Some master fortress where terrorists are trained and secret meetings are held about how to destroy the western world? Of course you don't, and neither does anyone else. But Al Qaeda is a nice word to focus on, it's a nice visual image of something to fight.

Do you think the US invading Afghanistan is going to stop a failed state like Somalia from harboring terrorists? Maybe, but I think the problem is these places don't have the type of mechanisms in place to stop or arrest terrorists against their own government.


IMO, Afghanistan = Good response

Iraq = Worst response.

Afghanistan was a mission constructed to fail. I'm not saying the world should have let poor Afghani's suffer, but there's no point in waging a war there. If simple steps are taken to improve the quality of life for average people, peace and order will begin to take shape organically, and terrorist camps will move elsewhere.


Were we attacked? Yes. What is the likelihood it will happen again? I dont know, but I'll be the pessimist and say "likely". Should I change my life or infringe my rights in an attempt to stave off said attack? Only if youre a fucking coward who is afraid of your own shadow.

9/11 was a tragedy, yes. It was horrible. But its not a reason to change anything for besides tighter airport security and increased border security. Going into Afghanistan is/was fine. Iraq was daddy-revenge, nothing more.

I can tell you there will most certainly be another terrorist attack. Will there ever be one as big as September 11th? Well that was a fairly spectacular event in terms of world history, so there is no way to know the answer to that question.

But you have the right attitude here. Terrorists can only be in one place at one time. They have to chose symbols that have strong meaning to be effective. The best response is always to recognize the symbolic nature of terrorism and reject the emotional response terrorists are seeking to provoke.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Hmm.

I will say that from everything I have seen, modern Arab culture in general tends to have a pretty strong racist streak.

One only has to look to the way they treat the immigrant workers in their countries to see this. Don't just look to their conditions, but look to any quotes from the natives "on the street" about the guest workers. Shameful on both counts.

Yes and this woman is clearly an example of a person who has an ax to grind against a community she feels wronged her. I'm not passing judgement on her, but she is a merely a journalist with some personal experiences that shape her outlook on an entire region and population.

Arabs can be fairly racist. Darfur is a potent example.

Arabs also took more slaves from African than Europeans, unfortunately few of those 13 million people appear to have survived.

I think this comes from their status as a venerated people within the Muslim community, it seems to have shaped a psychological superiority complex of vast proportions. But, it could also be a result of years of oppression by the Turks, who are also fairly racist.

But hell, how much of the world isn't racist?

[DarrinS]

Yeah, a good point. Anyone here been to Europe in the past few years?

Well, if you thought Muslims in Europe got a raw deal before 9/11 and the new attitude that overt bigotry was socially acceptable, you should see the place now!

What do you think all that mess was about in Paris a few years ago? British Muslims are just like French Muslims, with one or two more token success stories.

These people can't get good jobs, they can't integrate into societies that make no secret of the fact that they don't want immigrants around, and they can't go back to a home country that doesn't have the slightest promise of economic opportunity available.

You wonder why they're bitter?



You keep saying over and over again that terrorists are motivated because they are "oppressed" or they are somehow disenfranshised (<--- a favorite term of liberals). Don't you realize that a lot of terrorists are highly educated engineers, doctors, etc.?

THEY ARE MOTIVATED BY A TWISTED VERSION OF ISLAM!!!

Get that through your progressive little head.

Mohammed Atta studied engineering and architecture. His father was a lawyer.

Ziad Jarrah was from a wealthy family. He was studying aerospace engineering in Hamburg where he met Atta.

The men who bombed London were physicians!



Is there something you're not understanding?

[RobinsontoDuncan]

For every name you can recite of an educated terrorist i can provide 50 poor, helpless people.

I think the point you're missing is that the people you hate so much are only able to do what they do because they feed on feelings of helplessness. There may be anomalies along the way, but there are always individual reasons for resorting to violence.

Stop thinking about the guy the CIA tells you is a terrorist overlord and start thinking about the guy that blows himself up.

Osama bin Laden or Mohammad Atta or whomever else you care to mention, these people are nothing more than high ranking members of an organized crime family. They are incapable of causing any trouble on their own, because they are not willing to risk their own lives to do so.

[Yonivore]

For every name you can recite of an educated terrorist i can provide 50 poor, helpless people.
Organized by educated terrorists.

[DarrinS]

For every name you can recite of an educated terrorist i can provide 50 poor, helpless people.

I think the point you're missing is that the people you hate so much are only able to do what they do because they feed on feelings of helplessness. There may be anomalies along the way, but there are always individual reasons for resorting to violence.

Stop thinking about the guy the CIA tells you is a terrorist overlord and start thinking about the guy that blows himself up.

Osama bin Laden or Mohammad Atta or whomever else you care to mention, these people are nothing more than high ranking members of an organized crime family. They are incapable of causing any trouble on their own, because they are not willing to risk their own lives to do so.



I accept your challenge. I named two educated terrorists that "martyred" themselves on 911. You now have to name 100 "oppressed" terrorists.

[MannyIsGod]

Considering Terrorists implemented one of the most oppressive regimes I've seen in Afghanistan, I wouldn't necessarily call them freedom fighters.

[DarrinS]

Considering Terrorists implemented one of the most oppressive regimes I've seen in Afghanistan, I wouldn't necessarily call them freedom fighters.


It's oppressive in our eyes. To them, it's the "correct" way to live.

[MannyIsGod]

Yeah I'm pretty sure the muslim women living under the Taliban thought it was oppressive as well. Just saying.

[Yonivore]

Yeah I'm pretty sure the muslim women living under the Taliban thought it was oppressive as well. Just saying.
And there's a whole buttload of oppressed Muslim women terrorists.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

I accept your challenge. I named two educated terrorists that "martyred" themselves on 911. You now have to name 100 "oppressed" terrorists.

There were 121 suicide bombings in Israel between 2001-03. Based on the median education and income levels in the Palestinian refugee camps, I feel comfortable in concluding these people most likely thought of themselves as oppressed.

This site lists the number of attacks in Israel.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/aksagraph.html


Considering Terrorists implemented one of the most oppressive regimes I've seen in Afghanistan, I wouldn't necessarily call them freedom fighters.

Neither would I. Terrorism is a nonsensical act and it is best understood in terms of backlash. The act of blowing up a building doesn't actually accomplish anything, but it is a powerful expression of anger and frustration that reaches a large audience.

When it comes to the Taliban, you can contextualize them in a number of ways, but they were never terrorists. The Taliban was either trained by the Pakistani ISI (the organization that I believe is hiding Osama bin Laden. I also wouldn't be surprised to learn they had a big hand in 9/11) in order to stabilize Afghanistan or an organic response to the chaotic rule of the Mujaheddin warlords left over from the Soviet invasion.

Originally they even enjoyed some popularity based on the stability they brought to Afghanistan.



Honestly I think people are missing the Forrest for the trees here.

It doesn't matter if you think terrorists are oppressed or not. What you have to understand is that terrorists think they are.

That's the whole point of terrorism. Even or own domestic terrorists think like that, the militia movement and Timothy Mcvay, whatever the name of that Appalachian anarchist group that was responsible for Atlanta, etc.

I mean these people don't actually think they're going to come to power based on blowing up a subway station. They know that's not going to actually destroy society. It's delivering a message.

[Yonivore]

There were 121 suicide bombings in Israel between 2001-03...
All recruited by wealthy terrorist leaders such as those that run Hamas and Fatah and the PLO.

Sorry, just because the wealthy and educated terrorist are able to dupe useful idiots into doing their bidding doesn't prove your point.

[DarrinS]

Honestly I think people are missing the Forrest for the trees here.


Agreed. You are a good example.




It doesn't matter if you think terrorists are oppressed or not. What you have to understand is that terrorists think they are.


They don't target Judeo-Christian societies because of some perceived "oppression", they target them because people from these societies are infidels, the "great satan". If they wanted to attack "oppressors", they'd be attacking the leaders of their own countries. Did you know what the entire Arab world has a GDP less than that of Spain? Think about that.

[ChumpDumper]

Guys like Zawahiri started out trying to overthrow the government of their own countries; he was held for involvement in the Sadat assassination.

[DarrinS]

Guys like Zawahiri started out trying to overthrow the government of their own countries; he was held for involvement in the Sadat assassination.



You think it had anything to do with Sadat's Sinai treaty with Israel?

[Cant_Be_Faded]

You can kill a man.
You can kill an army.

But you cant
kill
terror

[Yonivore]

You can kill a man.
You can kill an army.

But you cant
kill
terror

So, of course, you have a solution.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

You think it had anything to do with Sadat's Sinai treaty with Israel?

Maybe. Or maybe he hated his government because it functions the same way most governments function in the Middle East--by protecting the extreme concentration of oil money in the hands of a few elite families.

If you think most of these governments treat their people well, you'd be surprised to hear about some of the exploitation that goes on internally in those countries.

I think it would be naive to believe there is no fault to be found with regard to US oil companies, but the level of responsibility is hard to really guess.

Unfortunately, a lot of people in the Arab world think it is mainly the fault of US oil companies, and so they distrust and hate America.

A lot of terrorists have tried to disrupt their local governments, the Muslim Brotherhood has been trying to dissolve the Egyptian state for years, but the state doesn't mind blatantly cracking down on them, and the war on terror seems to have supercharged what was already a system sponsoring the liberal application of torture.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I'm a neocon! War on terror! I'm a neocon! War on terror! Why did my country elect Obama again?

[ChumpDumper]

You think it had anything to do with Sadat's Sinai treaty with Israel?That certainly didn't help, but Zawahiri had been a member of radical Islamic groups bent on overthrowing the Egyptian government since the mid 1960s.

Pick up The Looming Tower by Lawrence Wright. It should be required reading now.

[DarrinS]

That certainly didn't help, but Zawahiri had been a member of radical Islamic groups bent on overthrowing the Egyptian government since the mid 1960s.

Pick up The Looming Tower by Lawrence Wright. It should be required reading now.


I'll pick up a copy.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

That certainly didn't help, but Zawahiri had been a member of radical Islamic groups bent on overthrowing the Egyptian government since the mid 1960s.

Pick up The Looming Tower by Lawrence Wright. It should be required reading now.

Between finishing your Masters in Girderology and reading every known scientific publication on the strength of girders I never would imagine you'd have time to read something else.

[DarrinS]

Actually the more I think about this issue, the more I just don't care what motivates terrorists.


If someone invades my home and is hell bent on doing harm to my family, I don't care if they had a bad childhood, they're crazed on meth, or they're religious psychopaths, they are going to meet their maker. I might even through in a few water boardings for good measure.

[Yonivore]

Actually the more I think about this issue, the more I just don't care what motivates terrorists.


If someone invades my home and is hell bent on doing harm to my family, I don't care if they had a bad childhood, they're crazed on meth, or they're religious psychopaths, they are going to meet their maker. I might even through in a few water boardings for good measure.
:toast :tu

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Landslide Victory!

[ChumpDumper]

Between finishing your Masters in Girderology and reading every known scientific publication on the strength of girders I never would imagine you'd have time to read something else.I never would imagine you read anything resembling a book.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I only read spurstalk

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Actually the more I think about this issue, the more I just don't care what motivates terrorists.


If someone invades my home and is hell bent on doing harm to my family, I don't care if they had a bad childhood, they're crazed on meth, or they're religious psychopaths, they are going to meet their maker. I might even through in a few water boardings for good measure.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

nvmnd, I was just trying to quote myself for extra stout's thread

[LnGrrrR]

Actually the more I think about this issue, the more I just don't care what motivates terrorists.


If someone invades my home and is hell bent on doing harm to my family, I don't care if they had a bad childhood, they're crazed on meth, or they're religious psychopaths, they are going to meet their maker. I might even through in a few water boardings for good measure.

And the moment anyone invades your home, feel free to do so. Of course, that doesn't have much to do with what we're talking about here, or the fact that some innocent people may be mixed in with the terrorists at GTMO.

[Winehole23]

And the moment anyone invades your home, feel free to do so. Of course, that doesn't have much to do with what we're talking about here, or the fact that some innocent people may be mixed in with the terrorists at GTMO.May be? Hell, what about the Uighurs? Their classification as unlawful combatants was thrown out, but that was after we had already "softened them up" for Chinese interrogators at Gitmo.

[LnGrrrR]

May be? Hell, what about the Uighurs? Their classification as unlawful combatants was thrown out, but that was after we had already "softened them up" for Chinese interrogators at Gitmo.

Yes, but you have to remember who we're talking to here Winehole. We have to take baby steps.

[FreeMason]

What's coming out of Mexico will be the next big thing.

Be it 20 million new Demoncat voters that will solidify a one party system or the ruthless crime slowly creeping out from the border.

[SnakeBoy]

If someone invades my home and is hell bent on doing harm to my family, I don't care if they had a bad childhood, they're crazed on meth, or they're religious psychopaths, they are going to meet their maker.

Isn't this Al Qaeda's position?

Oh wait, I'm sorry I forgot they only hate us because we're free.

[Winehole23]

What's coming out of Mexico will be the next big thing.

Be it 20 million new Demoncat voters that will solidify a one party system or the ruthless crime slowly creeping out from the border.Those 20 millions will have to get citizenship first.

Also, if you're worried about the crime creeping across the border, why not stop the flow of guns from here? Or better yet, wreck the business model of the drug cartels by legalizing (and taxing) their commodities, and America's super-sized drug demand.

[RandomGuy]

Actually the more I think about this issue, the more I just don't care what motivates terrorists.

If you understand what motivates them, you can prevent them from recruiting new ones.

This is roughly analogous to not caring how cancer is spread and simply operating to remove tumors when the pop up.

Preventing new tumors and knowing about the mechanics of how and why they form in the first place lets you avoid cancer in the first place.

Understanding their motivation is actually more important than killing them. I don't mean this in a touchy feely way, because I don't empathize with them and still think they are scumbags, but ...


Know your enemy and know yourself and you can fight a hundred battles without disaster.

[RandomGuy]

What's coming out of Mexico will be the next big thing.

Be it 20 million new Demoncat voters that will solidify a one party system or the ruthless crime slowly creeping out from the border.

The Latino vote will not be as monolithic as you seem to think.

[Winehole23]

The Latino vote will not be as monolithic as you seem to think.First of all, they're predominantly RC, though charismatic protestantism is growing by leaps and bounds among Hispanics. Hispanics are values voters (i.e., generally pro-life), and wholehearted participants in the family values cult, though their version is culturally much different than ours.

GOP will make some inroads, if they stop talking like FreeMason.

[TheGreatYacht]

How The US Is "Fighting Terrorism" In At Least 76 Nations Around The World - A Lie? Or A Failure?

https://youtu.be/uOgIjkdgvKc