Suns trade turns out the lights by ludden

[ducks]

LOS ANGELES – Steve Nash looked around the Staples Center visitors’ locker room late Wednesday, past the empty stalls and missing nameplates. His best friend, Raja Bell, wasn’t walking through the door anymore. Nor was his old coach, Mike D’Antoni. Boris Diaw was gone. Shawn Marion had been in Miami for nearly 10 months.

Together, they had authored one of the greatest chapters in the Phoenix Suns’ history. They won games and filled arenas, and their success even spawned an entire book. Seven seconds or less. Run and fun. No NBA team had been more entertaining to watch in the past five years than those Suns, and they had celebrated some of their greatest moments in this building. A dramatic series-evening OT victory over the Los Angeles Lakers. A Game 5 win over the Clippers which helped push them into the Western Conference finals.

Good times, all of it, but also now little more than a memory. If those go-go-go Suns didn’t already know it, they do now: The party is over. Phoenix GM Steve Kerr tipped over the keg and turned off the stereo Wednesday, trading Bell, Diaw and rookie point guard Sean Singletary to the Charlotte Bobcats for swingman Jason Richardson and forward Jared Dudley.

“It’s tough to see all these changes,” Nash said, slowly searching for his words.

“But that’s the nature of the business these days. Teams change very quickly.”

Few ever have changed as quickly or dramatically as these Suns. Kerr took over as GM prior to the start of last season. In February, the Suns traded Marion to the Miami Heat for Shaquille O’Neal. D’Antoni, who bristled under Kerr’s suggestion that the Suns needed a greater defensive emphasis, left for New York at season’s end. Terry Porter arrived. Now Bell and Diaw depart.

“I guess I’m the longest guy on staff,” Amare Stoudemire joked before Wednesday’s loss to the Lakers.

The Suns’ latest move makes sense for more than one reason. Richardson is a versatile perimeter scorer, and the team needed someone besides Nash who can create offense. The Suns also stop paying Diaw, a 20-minute-a-night backup who never has performed consistently enough to justify the five-year, $45 million extension the team gave him. If Dudley lives up to his potential, Suns officials think he could become a regular contributor.

But perhaps just as importantly, trading Bell and Diaw sends a message that these Suns are moving forward under Kerr and his hand-picked coach. A favorite of D’Antoni, Diaw never found a home in Porter’s system. Bell had been a more vocal critic. He bristled early in the season when Porter chided him for his shot selection and questioned the decision to run more of a halfcourt-oriented offense. His body language on the court spoke even louder.

“Whenever you’re losing where you have a new system where you’re not comfortable, there’s always some dissatisfaction,” Porter said. “No doubt about it.”

Still, even when the Suns won this season, they looked like one of the league’s unhappiest teams, forever searching for their identity. The perimeter players wanted to run again. O’Neal wanted to keep getting touches. Stoudemire, who wasn’t sad to see D’Antoni go, started pining for his old coach’s offense. Suns owner Robert Sarver even took a page from one of his Corporate America handbooks and reportedly held a bonding session that had the players cutting out pictures and building collages.

“We’re getting two players who are excited to be here, and sometimes that energy can be uplifting to an entire team,” Kerr said by phone Wednesday.

Said another Suns source: “This should help our mental health.”

Nash, however, wasn’t completely ready to buy into that belief just yet. Not after learning of the trade when a friend text-messaged him as he was boarding the bus to the game. “I called Raja,” Nash said, “and he was already at the airport.”

Nash played against the Lakers like he was lost, missing his first eight shots. Afterward, he admitted to feeling “pretty flat emotionally.”paid over 200k to be ready but can not SAD

“He’s my best friend,” Nash said of Bell. “It’s tough. It hurts.

“I have a hard time committing to this as a business,” Nash added. “I take this personally, and I take my career home with me. I care about my teammates. When you lose two of your best friends, it’s hard.”

It’s important to note that Nash played a role in the Suns’ makeover. Marion’s insecurity had begun to grate on many in the locker room, and both Nash and D’Antoni enthusiastically pushed to get O’Neal. And when the Suns lost to the San Antonio Spurs in the first round of the playoffs, Stoudemire wasn’t the only player chafing about some of D’Antoni’s coaching decisions. Even Bell lamented the team’s inability to make adjustments in the series.

“Everyone was upset,” said one Sun.

More than anything, the Suns had tired of losing to the Spurs, and Nash was smart enough to say Wednesday he’ll welcome Richardson and Dudley “with open arms.”

The irony, of course, is that on the surface Richardson appears to be a better fit for D’Antoni’s up-tempo offense than the defense-wins-championships philosophy of Porter. Kerr and Porter both talked up Richardson’s potential as a defender, but that’s more wishful thinking than anecdotal evidence. And while it’s true Bell’s rugged defense has been overstated for a couple of seasons – in a recent TNT interview, he admitted to hoping to recapture some of the edge he’s lost – one West scout said: “I’d rather go against J-Rich than Bell.”

Still, even with Bell, the Suns weren’t guarding much this season. Porter, too, has since loosened his reins on the offense, encouraging the Suns to run when possible. Adding Richardson could further quicken their pace.

“Basically,” Nash said, “we’re doing everything we used to do.”

So it’s fair to question whether the Suns ever needed to remake themselves at all. Maybe Nash wonders himself.

“I hope this isn’t a situation where they’re just trying to blow us up,” he said. “I think we have a chance to still be a really good team.”

Suns officials aren’t ready to consider trading Stoudemire. Having already surrendered their unprotected 2010 draft pick to Oklahoma City, a complete teardown doesn’t make much sense.

But Kerr felt some type of shakeup was in order. Bell was unhappy. Diaw, too. So the Suns rolled the dice once more.

Nash lost his best friend, but doesn’t the party always end sometime?

[Reck]

Nash should bail on this declining Suns team.

It even sucks reading that article.I feel for Nash.

[Armando]

Damn reading that article is depressing.

[td4mvp21]

I feel bad for Nash. But no one else on that team. Amare and Shaq can suck it.

[ducks]

Nash should bail on this declining Suns team.

It even sucks reading that article.I feel for Nash.
again he is paid over 200k to play 48 minutes
I think I could hire someon eto get me emotinally ready to play 40 minutes

he also ran to suns instead of resigning with the mavs

he got what he wanted

[ducks]

trade makes more sence for suns

I would have traded amare instead of diaw though
diaw proved he could produce when amare was not playing

[ducks]

Nash should bail on this declining Suns team.

It even sucks reading that article.I feel for Nash.

that would be funny no point guard now

[Yorae]

Is the Sun setting in the near future? With all this unhappy players....

[ducks]

does nash know how many people who have no jobs would be happy to play on a team and get paid to instead of having no job in todays economy

[Yorae]

If Parker was traded, would Manu say the same....If Manu was traded, would Parker say the same....If JV was traded......will anyone miss him???

[Armando]

As much as I feel bad for Nash he is still getting paid alot of money. And is not like any of them stood up and said we want D'Antoni as our coach after the playoff series was over. If Bell and Diaw were unhappy why keep them there? So they can eat away at what little chemistry was there?

[ducks]

trading bell was smart if he was getting vocal
there is still alot of time for the suns to gel with their new system and players before the playoffs

[Armando]

does nash know how many people who have no jobs would be happy to play on a team and get paid to instead of having no job in todays economy



Exactly after all the NBA is a business. Look at Shaq a sure fire Hall of Famer who has been traded 2 times. Nash admitted basically to being flat when the team needed in a very winnable game despite not having Shaq or JRich.

[DDS4]

I guess if you can't beat'em, you try to emulate them (the Spurs).

[Armando]

I guess if you can't beat'em, you try to emulate them (the Spurs).



Look if Sarver had not lowballed Joe Johnson who knows if the Suns don't have a ring or two by now. That 04-05 team was really good. Trading QRich for KT was a good move but losing Johnson hurt.

[GSH]

Kerr should have stuck to shooting 3's and color commentary. They want to play a more deliberate game and focus on defense - so they get rid of two of their best defensive players, and bring in a guy who is best suited to their old run-and-gun offense? Makes perfect sense to me.

It doesn't matter how effective Richardson is in scoring points for them. It's totally contrary to their supposed strategy, and it's a sign of desperation. I think Kerr is in over his head. The article is right about the Suns being tired of losing to the Spurs - he just doesn't know what to do about it.

[spursparker9]

feel sad for nash.....

[ClingingMars]

I feel bad for Nash. I have a good friend of mine who works for Nike and knows Nash personally, and while I am a Spurs fan who despises the Suns, from what I've learned with talking to him is that Nash is a genuine nice guy. I feel like Nash needs to get the hell out of dodge before the writing is on the wall for his career.

-Mars

[GSH]

Amare Stoudamire has always had game. Last year, after losing to the Spurs in the playoffs, he actually talked about how the Suns players should learn from the Spurs and not make any excuses. He even mentioned the previous year, and how D'Antoni insisted that he (Stoudamire) and Diaw were headed to the scorer's table when they got suspended. He basically called D'Antoni out as a liar, and said that they won't ever get better as long as they are making excuses like that.

My respect for him went up about 10x after that interview, and I feel sorry for him in this, too. As good as he is, I think he could have been a lot better if he had a coach like Pop that could have actually taught him something about defense. Now he's in a half-assed system that talks defense, but obviously isn't committed to it. Plus he has loud-mouth Shaq there as the "star" big man. Any success the Suns have, Amare won't get credit. But if they get torched on D, he'll get stuck with the blame.

[gmanrulz]

Look if Sarver had not lowballed Joe Johnson who knows if the Suns don't have a ring or two by now. That 04-05 team was really good. Trading QRich for KT was a good move but losing Johnson hurt.

johnson got the max from atlanta...

[mojorizen7]

Why feel sorry for Nash?
Come on...
If Nash doesn't recognize that this trade is a good thing for "team" then fuck him(and i'm a Nash guy).
Personally i think Nash will be the next major piece that gets moved.
It seems that D'Antoni's lack of mental toughness has worn off unto most of his guys over the last few years.
I hope Nash can shake this "losing my best friend crap" off and realize he's still playing basketball for a contender.

[Spur-Addict]

again he is paid over 200k to play 48 minutes
I think I could hire someon eto get me emotinally ready to play 40 minutes

he also ran to suns instead of resigning with the mavs

he got what he wanted

He didn't run anywhere, the Mavs tried lowballing him, the Suns just gave him a real contract.

[#2!]

The Suns and Mavs just don't get it. Last year they see Boston getting Allen and KG, they see LA getting Gasol, and they see(eventually) these teams making it to the finals. So they try to emulate this, and no one can blame them for it. But they misunderstood what was important and successful about those situations.

Dallas gets Kidd, emulating Pau to LA, but what they missed was that LA made a deal in which they added a great player w/out giving up anything of importance to the team. Especially not the youngest member of their core.

Phoenix emulated Boston's big summer, but started it before the season ended last year(shaq) and finished it(presumably, hopefully) at the beginning of this season(richardson). Although they also gave up important players, I will admit that I noticed the malcontent/complacent players that Bell, Marion, and Diaw had become even with my limited exposure to the team. They're biggest mistake is this inability to choose a philosophy and stick with it. That's what boston did, they commited to the system, no questions.
If they could commit to a system, they could be dangerous, but that has to happen from the top down. Currently the GM, head coach, and the top 2 players(nash and amare) are not on the same page, and it doesn't appear that they are capable of pulling themselves together.

Sorry stevie, tough luck.

[The Truth #6]

does nash know how many people who have no jobs would be happy to play on a team and get paid to instead of having no job in todays economy

Your rationale seems a bit forced to me. You're implying that if he doesn't think the way you think he should act, then he's being a jerk. I think he's just having a natural reaction to the situation. He could be completely detached about the whole thing but I don't think that makes him a better person either.

[Tully365]

The Suns just don't know what they want. They had D'Antoni and a high octane offense, but not so much defense. They trade Marion, who is one of their best defenders, for Shaq, who can't run anymore. They lose in the playoffs again. Then they fire D'Antoni and hire Terry Porter, who emphasizes defense more than D'Antoni. Now they trade their best defender and their most versatile defender for another scorer, even though Amare has already complained that he isn't getting enough shots in the new system... although earlier in the season, Amare took shots at D'Antoni in the press as somehow responsible for the lack of defensive emphasis that has characterized the Suns for the past five years or so. This is a totally disorganized franchise. The whole problem started with the Suns thinking defense was less important than offense, and now they've come full circle back to the original problem... oh, well-- good news for the Spurs.

[baseline bum]

Stoudemire is so going to New York in 2010.

[kace]

let me know how many times we've heard people complaining of the system or the pace or the number of touches or a trade or anything in SA ?? even after a loss or elimination. that's the difference.

[raspsa]

It's a fine balancing act that Kerr and Porter are doing in Phoenix. They have to make sure Amare stays happy so he signs an extension while they tear down the last remnants of the team that MDA built. So much of Phoenix' hopes center around Amare.. too bad for them he's not a good foundation to build a championship francise upon. There's no questioning his talent, just his motivation and his maturity. I can't help but compare him with Timmy and Duncan is lightyears better in terms of being a leader and putting the team's welfare first. If Kerr really want to start with a clean slate, they should really consider swapping Amare in the near future.

[MI21]

Aww Nashy, it's ok you are not alone, it's hard without your best friend. Like me, you may never be the player you once were, but it's your heart that will hurt the most.

Sincerely,

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2351/2183831259_d27f6a3626.jpg?v=0

(Oddly enough, this is the second time I have got to use this picture in a few days)

[GSH]

It's a fine balancing act that Kerr and Porter are doing in Phoenix. They have to make sure Amare stays happy so he signs an extension while they tear down the last remnants of the team that MDA built. So much of Phoenix' hopes center around Amare.. too bad for them he's not a good foundation to build a championship francise upon. There's no questioning his talent, just his motivation and his maturity. I can't help but compare him with Timmy and Duncan is lightyears better in terms of being a leader and putting the team's welfare first. If Kerr really want to start with a clean slate, they should really consider swapping Amare in the near future.

No disputing that Tim is a once-in-a-generation player. But there is also no disputing that he benefitted by coming to a team with David Robinson as a mentor, and Pop as a coach. All Amare had was that whiny-assed D'Antoni and his showboat offensive scheme. Don't forget that a lot of these guys are just really tall boys when they come to the league. There is a reason why they lack maturity. Some grow up, some never do.

[Indazone]

Wow, Kerr basically blew up a championship contending team.

[Brazil]

Nash is on his way to go playing for the raptors.

[bigfan]

Nash is getting olde and cant play defense worth spit.

[mrspurs]

Whats all the crying about? The Suns just made themselves better. And they didnt wait until after the All-Star to start things up. Richardson can play in this league. I refuse to shoot down the Suns. This is a team built on doing one thing alone. Beating us in the POs. They're putting the pieces in order. All they need is gel time and this is a good 7 game series ball club.

[z0sa]

Whats all the crying about? The Suns just made themselves better. And they didnt wait until after the All-Star to start things up. Richardson can play in this league. I refuse to shoot down the Suns. This is a team built on doing one thing alone. Beating us in the POs. They're putting the pieces in order. All they need is gel time and this is a good 7 game series ball club.

No basketball acumen. This team's run and gun style would've beat us before a debilitated shaq and nash will. If you think Manu went off on the Suns before, just wait til its Grant Hill or JRich guarding him.

We have too many pieces that counter theirs. I would like to use last season's victory over the Suns as a prime example of why our big men are good enough for another run, especially with the emergence of Bonner. if Ian ever gets here the tides turn even more in our favor.

It ain't fantasy, it was just last season!

[ducks]

He didn't run anywhere, the Mavs tried lowballing him, the Suns just gave him a real contract.

cuban gave him a good offer
nash was getting up there in age

he ran

[exstatic]

Nash should bail on this declining Suns team.

It even sucks reading that article.I feel for Nash.

F Nash. He sounds more like a butt hurt baby than Franchise when Cuttino was traded from Orlando to Sacto. Hey Nash: if you had beaten SA once and won the ring, they wouldn't be tearing down the team. Stop whining, man up, and earn your huge paycheck, BITCH!!!

[exstatic]

Wow, Kerr basically blew up a championship pretending team.

FIFY. Phoenix was always a pretender.

[exstatic]

Aww Nashy, it's ok you are not alone, it's hard without your best friend. Like me, you may never be the player you once were, but it's your heart that will hurt the most.

Sincerely,

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2351/2183831259_d27f6a3626.jpg?v=0

(Oddly enough, this is the second time I have got to use this picture in a few days)

Someone REALLY needs to 'Shop Nash and Raja onto this pic....

[ducks]

http://f3.yahoofs.com/ymg/ept_sports_nba_experts__17/ept_sports_nba_experts-882581653-1228878265.jpg?ym5WMdADUyPamAAI

[Xylus]

The Suns looked wonderful offensively tonight, and pretty decent defensively in the 2nd half. We didn't have Shaq tonight because he's still tending to family matters (death of his great grandmother), and Dwight Howard had a field day against Robin Lopez in the 20 minutes that he played.

J-Rich looked like he's going to fit in here just fine. We've always been a great offensive team, but J-Rich brings us three very important things that the Suns have been lacking lately:

1) Athleticism -- This guy can leap like no other
2) Excitement -- The crowd was louder tonight than they've been all season long. J-Rich had an alley-oop dunk that sent the crowd into a frenzy.
3) Energy -- He was all over the place in his 34 minutes.

I'm extremely excited about this trade after seeing him play with the guys tonight. The Suns look revitalized, beating a very good Orlando Magic team in a close game.

[lurker]

The Suns looked like they were actually having fun at times tonight. Haven't seen that in a while.

[JMarkJohns]

Bell was no longer the solution to the Suns defensive woes. He had been torched repeatedly and was no longer capable of playing big minutes, keeping pace - in a slowed style - or hitting perimeter shots consistently.

His loss of a step - or three - made him expendable. I hate to see him go, but he was no longer helping to right wrongs. He was now as much a wrong.

Richardson brings offensive skills from the wing that this Suns team hasn't had since Johnson packed up and moved to Atlanta. His athleticism will be a huge benefit.

I'm cautiously optimistic about this trade. It brings more than it gives up, regardless of whatever preconceived notions most had about the Suns. This team needed some offense. They were not getting it inside from Diaw or outside from Bell. If tonight is any indication of things to come, then I, like Xylus, think Richardson will answer the call for each, hopefull revitalizing Nash, Amare and the Suns running game in the process.

Now we get to see if Porter is worth a damn as a coach. He has more "running" peices now and does face a tough decision, but the right move is starting Lopez and moving Shaq to the bench.

Starters: Nash, Richardson, Barnes, Amare, Lopez
Bench: Dragic, Barbosa, Hill, Dudley, Shaq

Those rotations maximize each skillset and individual talent. Nash and Amare can resume their pic-n-roll and running ways without Shaq's plodding and low-post game disrupting their flow, and Shaq can no dominate the ball when in without it taking shots away from Amare. Hill can run point, taking pressure off Barbosa and Dragic and I think Dudley can actually come close to matching Diaw's production if given the minutes.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

While the Suns will always be our nemesis, from one poster to another, I wish you Suns fans (JMarkJohns and Xylus) the best of luck with this trade as I'm sure this season has been really frustrating. :tu

[SequSpur]

wgaf about the suns.. nba forum

[Xylus]

I don't think the Suns should start Lopez over Shaq, even though the Suns can probably execute the runing game a little more smoothly with Lopez on the floor. However, I hope Porter starts utilizing small-ball lineups against teams without really competent frontcourts.

Nash
Barbosa
J-Rich
Barnes
Amare

I think this lineup will run opposing teams into the ground after Shaq goes to the bench.

By the way, it's good to see you again, JMark. I haven't discussed Suns ball with you in months, it seems like.

[Xylus]

While the Suns will always be our nemesis, from one poster to another, I wish you Suns fans (JMarkJohns and Xylus) the best of luck with this trade as I'm sure this season has been really frustrating. :tu

:toast

Haven't talked to you in awhile, either, my friend. This season has been frustrating for both teams, but I think the Spurs have the mental fortitude to overcome any obstacle (including injuries). The Suns are mentally weaker and need a shot in the arm. Hopefully, J-Rich will be just what the doctor ordered.

[milkyway21]

Damn reading that article is depressing.

yeah, it is a sad article.

I feel sorry for Nash. He thought he found a new bond with his new friends in Phoenix after leaving Dallas friends Dirk/Fin, now as if he's alone again.


I wonder when is the time ShaQ asks for a trade or declare retirement? I don't think ShaQ is happy there too.

Sad. Like the day Malik left for NY.


:wakeup:

[Dingle Barry]

Stoudemire is so going to New York in 2010.

That'd be dumb of New York. They could do better by getting Oh My Bosh to go with LBJ and fuck shit up for a decade.

[Spur-Addict]

cuban gave him a good offer
nash was getting up there in age

he ran

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/low/other_sports/us_sport/3860879.stm

25 Million dollar low ball, following yet?

Not much of a run if you ask me. Where's the love Cuban, where's the love?

[Biernutz]

The story is so sad I feel like crying along with Steve. I would but I'm laughing my ass off on how PHX fan is screwed now. Look at the way Kerr blew up the Suns. Is he a double agent working for the Spurs? I just love it! :lmao

[Spur-Addict]

The story is so sad I feel like crying along with Steve. I would but I'm laughing my ass off on how PHX fan is screwed now. Look at the way Kerr blew up the Suns. Is he a double agent working for the Spurs? I just love it! :lmao

Walken is the man. :lol

[JMarkJohns]

I don't think the Suns should start Lopez over Shaq, even though the Suns can probably execute the runing game a little more smoothly with Lopez on the floor. However, I hope Porter starts utilizing small-ball lineups against teams without really competent frontcourts.

Nash
Barbosa
J-Rich
Barnes
Amare

I think this lineup will run opposing teams into the ground after Shaq goes to the bench.

By the way, it's good to see you again, JMark. I haven't discussed Suns ball with you in months, it seems like.

I just think if you're going to maximize the size you have with Amare and Shaq while at the same time maximizing the transition skills of Nash, Barbosa, Richardson, Barnes, Amare and Lopez, then having Shaq play 28 minutes a night off the bench is the only way to do it. He won't be slowing Nash down for more than a handful of minutes a night. He'll get a ton of low-post shots when Amare's out and won't take but two or three of Amare's touches when they play together. Hill will kill second-units.

I think it maximizes touches, skillsets and offensive efficiency.

And yes, it's great to be talking basketball again. I've done a bit here and there, but haven't done a whole lot lately.

Hopefully last night starts something. I love Barnes. I'd really like for them to resign him at year's end for two years or so...

[Bruno]

I quite put Phoenix and Houston in the same category. Both teams aren't that good right now but they are damn talented and have a huge upside.
When/if they find a way to reach that upside, that is to say finding an identity/chemistry and staying healthy, they will be really dangerous teams.

I definitively can see one or both of these teams being at the level of Celtics, Lakers and Cavs in April and Spurs' fans won't be laughing then.

[JMarkJohns]

I quite put Phoenix and Houston in the same category. Both teams aren't that good right now but they are damn talented and have a huge upside.
When/if they find a way to reach that upside, that is to say finding an identity/chemistry and staying healthy, they will be really dangerous teams.

I definitively can see one or both of these teams being at the level of Celtics, Lakers and Cavs in April and Spurs' fans won't be laughing then.

The Suns need a real backup PG and a relentless rebounder from the PF spot to make this happen.

Barbosa, Dudley, Amundson and a slew of 2nd-rounders coming their way are the bait.

Until that time, they'll either be mismatched skills-wise (Nash, Richardson, Hill, Amare and Shaq), a bit thin un front (Nash, Richardson, Barnes, Amare, Lopez) or small all over (Nash, Barbosa, Richardson, Barnes, Amare)...

They have potential, yes, but right now they are still flawed.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Nash apparently missed Bell a little too much against LA, he decided to go 2-12 from the field and do his best Bell impression. Bell had become a cancer, Kerr has made some bad decisions, but telling the team to play defense sure as hell is not one of them. The only reason Bell is in the NBA is because when he was on Philly and Utah his role was to play relentless defense regardless of how many shots he takes. For some reason he thinks now he can slack on defense because in his mind he's a potent offensive player, even though he is about to learn he is not a potent offensive player.

Nash for too long has been above criticism, and the problem is the local Phoenix media makes it so even players like Bell and aMarE are above criticism. When the best player on the team is a 2 time MVP and plays like Nash does, his teammates are basically sent the message, "As long as you score some points, someone else will play defense for you," which is the biggest contributor to the Suns' defensive woes, and also the biggest contributor to everyone on the team wanting to score. I'm not sure about this but based off of what I've read this season it seems like Nash is more concerned with having fun than winning a championship, which explains the way he plays.

If a team is gonna play defense at a championship level like the Spurs or Celtics, it starts with a commitment from the stars of the team and a system where the coach and the players hold each other accountable. They might have gotten rid of D'antoni, but there is still no accountability on that side of the ball.

Parker by no means is a lock down defender, but he fights through screens and plays D exactly the way his coach tells him to. Ray Allen is exactly the same way. If you're a young player like Barbosa and you see the guy on the team you've looked up to for years (Nash) not play a lick of defense, why would you want to play defense?

This post was far too long, but a lot of people are calling the Suns contenders now after J-Rich's debut against Orlando, but this team is not a title contender until Nash, aMarE and Richardson take as much pride on defense and work as hard at defense as Manu Parker and Duncan or KG Ray and Pierce. Being good at offense doesn't mean a player gets to be bad at defense contrary to what aMarE believes.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

F Nash. He sounds more like a butt hurt baby than Franchise when Cuttino was traded from Orlando to Sacto. Hey Nash: if you had beaten SA once and won the ring, they wouldn't be tearing down the team. Stop whining, man up, and earn your huge paycheck, BITCH!!!

I actually agree. That's EXACTLY what it sounds like, it's actually worse because the Suns got better with this trade, trading Mobley hurt Orlando. If Nash and Bell wanted to remain on the same team, they would care about defense. Bell being considered a lockdown defender is very similar to Kobe, whereas both cases are purely based off reputation, neither one gives an effort on D anymore, the only difference is Kobe can still be a decent defender without intensity because of athleticism, unless Bell is hustling and playing defense like it's his last game, his lack of talent makes him a defensive liability. Bell being a good defender is a complete myth. When the star on a team doesn't play D it rubs off on everyone.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Now we get to see if Porter is worth a damn as a coach. He has more "running" peices now and does face a tough decision, but the right move is starting Lopez and moving Shaq to the bench.

Starters: Nash, Richardson, Barnes, Amare, Lopez
Bench: Dragic, Barbosa, Hill, Dudley, Shaq


Lopez shouldn't even be in the NBA, that was a wasted pick by Kerr. Every time the Suns get a new crappy player, the media makes something up about him that is not true. When they got Skinner it was like they got Bill Russell because of the "great defense" he plays. When they got Barnes, he could play "Marion-like defense" (that's an exact quote). When they got Banks, it was because of his great shooting.

The Lopez thing I find hilarious, particularly because Kerr got so many people to buy into it. Because Lopez is white, everyone assumed his game was extremely polished for a rookie and he was a very intelligent player. Kerr's plan worked to perfection, draft a big white guy, make sure the sports writers you have wrapped around your fingers write a few articles about his "NBA ready rebounding and defense," and the fans will find it brilliant.

Lopez is 7 feet tall and played in the smallest conference in the NCAA, the Pac-10. He averaged a grand 5 rebounds per game in college. I'm curious Jmarks, why should he start?

[JMarkJohns]

According to confirmed reports, Bell requested the trade because he was upset he was rebuffed when he asked for a two-year extension this offseason.

I liked what Bell brought, but his defense had slipped to the point where it was almost as bad as anyone's, his shot had become very eratic, and if he was becoming a distraction in the locker room, then honoring his request was the best thing for the Suns, no matter the surprise it brought upon Nash.

Besides, if Bell requested it, then obviously he didn't think very highly of sticking around with Nash.

[JMarkJohns]

Lopez shouldn't even be in the NBA, that was a wasted pick by Kerr. Every time the Suns get a new crappy player, the media makes something up about him that is not true. When they got Skinner it was like they got Bill Russell because of the "great defense" he plays. When they got Barnes, he could play "Marion-like defense" (that's an exact quote). When they got Banks, it was because of his great shooting.

Me thinks the lady doth protest too much!

I follow the Suns and I never heard anybody compare Skinner to Russell - or even a player like Chandler or Dalembert, for that matter - or Barnes to Marion defensively. D'Antoni gushed over Banks, 'tis true, but because of his size and athleticism, not because of his shot.

As for Robin, I'll explain why he belongs in the NBA...



The Lopez thing I find hilarious, particularly because Kerr got so many people to buy into it. Because Lopez is white, everyone assumed his game was extremely polished for a rookie and he was a very intelligent player. Kerr's plan worked to perfection, draft a big white guy, make sure the sports writers you have wrapped around your fingers write a few articles about his "NBA ready rebounding and defense," and the fans will find it brilliant.

What the hell are you talking about? Because he's white? How about because when his brother was suspended for the first half of last season, Robin averaged 13 points, 7 rebounds and 3 blocks in around 25 minutes a night.

Nobody thought he was polished. Of the two brothers, Robin was always the lesser offensively skilled. However, he was also the one who hustled and attempted to play defense. He's energetic, is very quick and athletic for a big man and works hard.

If a team has a shot to draft a legit 7-footer who's athletic, quick and hustles, then why shouldn't they given what will follow?



Lopez is 7 feet tall and played in the smallest conference in the NCAA, the Pac-10. He averaged a grand 5 rebounds per game in college. I'm curious Jmarks, why should he start?

There's obviously no talking to you. Played in the smallest conference in the NCAA? in case you hadn't noticed - which you obviously haven't - he and his brother went up against 2007 lottery pick 6-11, 215 Spencer Hawes and 6-8, 240 Jon Brockman at Washington, against 2008 lottery pick 6-9, 245 Kevin Love and 6-9, 220 Mbah A Moute at UCLA, 6-9, against 230 Ryan Anderson and 6-11, 225 DeVon Hardin at California, 6-10, against 240 Taj Gibson at USC, 6-9, against 235 Jordan Hill at UA, 6-10, against 235 Eric Boetang and 6-9, 230 Jeff Pendergraph at ASU.

The Pac-10 for the better part of two years may have been the tallest and most talented with regards to frontcourt players in the NCAA. In the last two drafts, it has produced three lottery picks from three different schools, two more first-round selections, two more second-round selections and by this next draft, will likely produce another two first-rounders in Gibson and Hill and another second that Robin played against in Pendergraph.

That means in this two years at Stanford, Robin will have faced off against his brother, 2008 top-10 pick, everyday in practice, against two other lottery picks, four other 1st-rounders and another three to four second-rounders.

Considering his competition night-in, night-out, and his shared spotlight with his brother, I think stats of 11 points, 6 rebounds and 2 blocks is pretty solid for a sophomore.

As to why he should start, if it's not obvious that his athleticism and hustle upfront complements Nash's transition game and Amare's defensive weaknesses, then you don't know much about basketball.

Let's see, a slow, plodding Shaq that bogs down the middle, can't hit a shot outside the key and is slow to react on defense in an up-tempo style of offensive ball or a quick and defensive 7-foot athlete who not only can block shots and rebound well enough, but can hit a 10-foot jumper.

Whether or not you think it's in the Suns best interests to start Lopez over Shaq is an argument I'd consider and may actually be right, but to dismiss Lopez because of a flawed idea of who he is, the conference he played in and the team that drafted him is just silly.

EDIT: In the three games he's received big minutes this season, Lopez is averaging 11 points, 5 rebounds and 2 blocks a game. That's in an average of 27 minutes a game.

That's pretty damn solid for a rookie.

He's been inconsistent, true, but his minutes have been inconsistent. Going forward he needs a bigger role and he needs it alongside Amare and Nash to maximize his defense and athleticism in transition.

[JMarkJohns]

Spencer Hawes: 15 ppg, 6 rpg
Jon Brockman: 14 ppg, 10 rpg

Kevin Love: 18 ppg, 10 rpg
Luc Richard Mbah A Moute: 9 ppg, 8 rpg

Ryan Anderson: 18 ppg, 9 rpg
DeVon Hardin: 10 ppg, 8 rpg

Taj Gibson: 13 ppg, 9 rpg

Jordan Hill: 14 ppg, 8 rpg

Jeff Pendergraph: 12 ppg, 8 rpg

These are the averages from opposing frontcourts the Lopez twins went up against for the one or two seasons they were at Stanford.

[superbigtime]

I don't feel bad for nash. Not one bit. He's playing basketball in Phoenix, Arizona in front of rabid fans who adore him and is earning millions of dollars. Aww, he wost his best fwend; poor wittle ting. What a whiney little bitch.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

The Suns were 1-2 in those three 3 games, so starting him obviously didn't help the Suns as a team, the win coming against the OKC Thunder. In that game, the Suns were outscored by 8 in the 25 minutes he played. In those three games, the other team averaged 12 offensive boards, which doesn't surprise me considering most teams would when the opposing center only averages 2.8 defensive rebounds per 36 minutes.

You say rebound "well enough", what exactly is "well enough"? Per 36 minutes, so PT isn't a factor here, Nash averages more defensive rebounds than Robin, is that well enough? Do championship teams normally start a center who averages 2.8 rebounds per 36 minutes?

Btw, all those players you mentioned are shorter than Robin and are considered undersized centers. Jay Bilas said multiple times last year the Pac-10 was the smallest conference, and that's specifically because they had 6'8" 6'9" guys playing center.

Compliments Amare's defensive weaknesses? WTF are you talking about? Amare's defensive weaknesses are defensive rebounding, always being out of position, and not being big enough to keep strong players out of the paint, so how exactly does Robin compliment his weaknesses? Ask Andrew Bynum or Dwight Howard how easy it is to get in the paint against him, he averages 5 fouls per 36 minutes so obviously he's out of position rather often, and I already explained his pitiful defensive rebounding.

Saying Lopez compliments Amare defensively would be like saying Mehmet Okur compliments Dirk defensively. They both have horrid lower body strength and need someone like Shaq to guard the Duncans, Howards and Al Jeffersons of the league.

I didn't mean the Skinner Russell thing literally, my point is that Steve Kerr's little puppet crew tooted Kerr's horn repeatedly for picking up a "hard nosed defender" in Skinner, and a Suns writer, Paul Coro, specifically called Barnes defense "Marion-like". That's an exact quote. They also described Robin Lopez as NBA ready and a great rebounder, which even though you think someone who averages 2.8 defensive rebounds per 36 is a great rebounder, he is not.

[Biggems]

What a wonderful article....it made me smile. I am so glad our Spurs had a major part in the demise and dismantling of that team. I do not feel sorry for them or their fans. I do not feel sorry for any of the players.....Win or go home. Win or get fired. Win or get traded. Then failed to win and now they have to endure the business side of things. It is the nature of the beast. Meanwhile, my Spurs are still a happy little family, surrounded by happy little OBrien's......even though we did lose Barry, but he is right down the road.

GO SPURS GO

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

"He's been inconsistent, true, but his minutes have been inconsistent. Going forward he needs a bigger role and he needs it alongside Amare and Nash to maximize his defense and athleticism in transition."


Have you watched a Suns game when Lopez was starting next to Amare? Remember that New Orleans game beginning of the month? That game where Chandler and West combined to go 11 for 18 from the field with 10 combined offensive rebounds and 17 combine free throw attempts. Is that your definition of two players that compliment each other on defense? They are both the exact same defender, Robin needed Brook to be a good defender, and Amare needs Shaq to be a good defender. Neither one of them has fundamental defense or rebounding skills, they both get rebounds because of height and burst. Height and athleticism are only two of many elements a dominant rebounder has. Marion is 6'7" and he rebounds way better than either one.

[JMarkJohns]

The Suns were 1-2 in those three 3 games, so starting him obviously didn't help the Suns as a team, the win coming against the OKC Thunder. In that game, the Suns were outscored by 8 in the 25 minutes he played. In those three games, the other team averaged 12 offensive boards, which doesn't surprise me considering most teams would when the opposing center only averages 2.8 defensive rebounds per 36 minutes.

He's a rookie who's had limited NBA experience. I'll take him going forward just fine. He's green, but he has shown potential, works hard and is athletic. I am pretty confident footwork, positioning and strength will come and each will benefit Lopez in every current area of weakness.



You say rebound "well enough", what exactly is "well enough"? Per 36 minutes, so PT isn't a factor here, Nash averages more defensive rebounds than Robin, is that well enough? Do championship teams normally start a center who averages 2.8 rebounds per 36 minutes?

You're really going overboard. Nobody is claiming championship. Also HE'S A ROOKIE... Also, if you watch him play, sometimes I attempts to tip the ball to an open teammate rather than grab the rebound, which doesn't count as a rebound for him, but for the person who comes away with the rebound.

Going forward, Lopez is a player who needs more minutes and what he brings is maximized alongside Nash, in an uptempo style, and alongside Amare.



Btw, all those players you mentioned are shorter than Robin and are considered undersized centers. Jay Bilas said multiple times last year the Pac-10 was the smallest conference, and that's specifically because they had 6'8" 6'9" guys playing center.

Very few college teams start 6-11 or taller players. Seldom does a conference have more than two or three in starting roles at a time.

I'll take the Pac-10 big men in college vs. any conference.


Compliments Amare's defensive weaknesses? WTF are you talking about? Amare's defensive weaknesses are defensive rebounding, always being out of position, and not being big enough to keep strong players out of the paint, so how exactly does Robin compliment his weaknesses? Ask Andrew Bynum or Dwight Howard how easy it is to get in the paint against him, he averages 5 fouls per 36 minutes so obviously he's out of position rather often, and I already explained his pitiful defensive rebounding.

His weakside blocked shots help combat Amare's poor positioning and reaction time. He's also a true 7-footer with quickness and long arms that can alter shots. Yeah, he's thin. Sure, he needs to add some weight. Yes, he needs coaching up. But he's a 20 year old rookie. The Suns aren't going to play Howard but one more time, and they'll have Shaq going forward to play bigger minutes when necessary.

But he's not going to remain an inconsistent rookie forever. Not with his hustle, his hard work and his ability. He needs roughly 20 minutes a night consistently from now on. Whether that's off the bench, failing to utilize his athleticism alongside his most athletic teammates, or starting with them, whatever. But he's made a positive impact.


Saying Lopez compliments Amare defensively would be like saying Mehmet Okur compliments Dirk defensively. They both have horrid lower body strength and need someone like Shaq to guard the Duncans, Howards and Al Jeffersons of the league.

Twenty Year Old Rookie... Give him minutes, give him time and I bet he improves. I'm not expecting All-Star, but he's tall, quick and athletic enough to average 6-7 points, 5-6 rebounds and 2 blocks in 20 minutes a night if used right. I'll take that.



I didn't mean the Skinner Russell thing literally, my point is that Steve Kerr's little puppet crew tooted Kerr's horn repeatedly for picking up a "hard nosed defender" in Skinner, and a Suns writer, Paul Coro, specifically called Barnes defense "Marion-like". That's an exact quote. They also described Robin Lopez as NBA ready and a great rebounder, which even though you think someone who averages 2.8 defensive rebounds per 36 is a great rebounder, he is not.

Skinner was a solid pick up and had D'Antoni played him more, he'd have contributed more. D'Antoni doesn't know how to use offensively challenged players.

Coro is a tool. Everyone who writes for the Arizona Republic is a tool. If Coro in-fact said such, then you're justified in your claims of media bias, but nto for wactually caring to reporters who most Suns fans ignore :p

Barnes is tough. I like what he brings. He's agressive, rebounds well for his size, doesn't take crap and his the ability to create his own offense and hit the open three. He's benefitte the Suns more than Marion did last season by playing hard and not bitching about being underpaid/underappreciated based on what he produces.

As for your closing remarks on Lopez... You really shouldn't complain when pro-Suns media is prone to hyperbole when your anti-Suns self is exaggerating my words.

Never did I even infer Lopez was a great rebounder. I never even said he was a good rebounder. I said he was a good enough rebounder that he could justify starting based on what else he brings to an athletic starting lineup.

Against most every NBA team, I expect Lopez to work out just fine in his 20 minutes or so a night. Sure, he'll struggle, and yes, he may be incapable of defending the Howard's and Ming's of the league for long stretches, but he's a solid prospect who hustles, works hard and has good defensive timing to alter/block shots, especially on help defense.

With Amare as the PF, help defense and quicker reaction times is a nice complement. Shaq doesn't really bring either.

[JMarkJohns]

"He's been inconsistent, true, but his minutes have been inconsistent. Going forward he needs a bigger role and he needs it alongside Amare and Nash to maximize his defense and athleticism in transition."


Have you watched a Suns game when Lopez was starting next to Amare? Remember that New Orleans game beginning of the month? That game where Chandler and West combined to go 11 for 18 from the field with 10 combined offensive rebounds and 17 combine free throw attempts. Is that your definition of two players that compliment each other on defense? They are both the exact same defender, Robin needed Brook to be a good defender, and Amare needs Shaq to be a good defender. Neither one of them has fundamental defense or rebounding skills, they both get rebounds because of height and burst. Height and athleticism are only two of many elements a dominant rebounder has. Marion is 6'7" and he rebounds way better than either one.

You really have a hard on for bashing Lopez. He's a freakin' rookie... a young one at that who barely plays. Of course when you thrust him in against All-Star/Olympic frontcourts he'll struggle. To expect otherwise is foolish. However, he isn't going to learn and improve sitting on the bench while Shaq bogs down the Suns in a mismatched lineup.

Robin, not Brook, was the better defender.

I'm not saying there aren't times when it will be a benefit to the Suns to start or play Amare and Shaq more than Amare and Lopez, but while he has his issues, Robin isn't the lost cause you portray him to be.

Every player needs time with his teammates, to develop chemistry, gain know-how of their tendencies and develop proper reactions to them.

You're basing your opinions on a flawed notion of him in college and in his limited and very inconsistent playing time thus far.

Give the kid a break and let him develop.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Judging by statistics, the lineup of Lopez-Amare-Hill-Richardson-Nash would grab the defensive rebound 65.6% of the time. That team would get abused on the offensive glass. Being able to guard Tim Duncan and keep him off the glass is 10x more important than being able to block shots. Blocks are the most overrated defensive statistic of all time, a team blocking more shots than another team DOES NOT mean they are a better defensive team. If blocking shots and playing help defense was important, the Spurs would have one of the worst defenses in basketball.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

The Suns are 2-3 in the games he starts, and one of the two came against the OKC Thunder where they surrendered 15 offensive rebounds and won by only 1 point, the other win was last night when a Howard injury saved them. Sounds like a recipe for success.

[JMarkJohns]

When your perimeter defense is nonexistent, then having a shotblocker is very important. Having an athlete step in and alter shots can trickle down and actually cause opponants to hesitate driving the lane. I'm not saying Lopez is that type of shot blocker, but when given the minutes, he's proven a very solid one.

You're right that Shaq benefits the Suns vs. specific teams, but vs. others I think Lopez helps in ways Shaq can't. I was screaming at the TV for Porter to play Lopez in the fourth last night. It was a layup line almost all quarter. At least try it.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

And I knew he would struggle against Howard, but struggling and not grabbing 1 defensive rebound in 20 minutes at center are two completely different things. The Robin Lopez Kerr told us he was drafting is not a player who needs a lot of experience to start playing better defense, but then again his role on defense at Stanford was completely different than his defensive role on the Suns, another brilliant player evaluation by Kerr.

[JMarkJohns]

The Suns are 2-3 in the games he starts, and one of the two came against the OKC Thunder where they surrendered 15 offensive rebounds and won by only 1 point, the other win was last night when a Howard injury saved them. Sounds like a recipe for success.

The Suns built a bigger lead when Howard was in then what they won by. Howard's departure hurt the Suns. They may not have won had he stayed in, but they had figured out how to do their best against him and had outscored the Magic by nearly 20 points from the second quarter on when Howard left. From that point on, the Suns were outscored.

You can't not play a player, insert him at random and expect him to just get it and play at a high level. He needs minutes. He needs consistency. He needs to play with a specific rotation to learn their ins and outs.

I don't understand why you hold a rookie to such a high standard. It's almost pathetic how much you seemingly despise the kid.

Play him consistently with the same players and let a chemistry develop. He's not a lost cause. He'll improve.

[JMarkJohns]

And I knew he would struggle against Howard, but struggling and not grabbing 1 defensive rebound in 20 minutes at center are two completely different things. The Robin Lopez Kerr told us he was drafting is not a player who needs a lot of experience to start playing better defense, but then again his role on defense at Stanford was completely different than his defensive role on the Suns, another brilliant player evaluation by Kerr.

And because Lopez was able to body-up Howard, Amare grabbed 14 rebounds, way more than his average. Seriously, there's impact that can't be seen through stats alone.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

When your perimeter defense is nonexistent, then having a shotblocker is very important. Having an athlete step in and alter shots can trickle down and actually cause opponants to hesitate driving the lane. I'm not saying Lopez is that type of shot blocker, but when given the minutes, he's proven a very solid one.

You're right that Shaq benefits the Suns vs. specific teams, but vs. others I think Lopez helps in ways Shaq can't. I was screaming at the TV for Porter to play Lopez in the fourth last night. It was a layup line almost all quarter. At least try it.


Having bad perimeter defense is not a problem you can hide. You need to be able to limit dribble penetration with your PG, SG and SF. If shot blocking is your most effective way of getting a stop, then you're not a contender. Teams like Boston and SA worry about opposing field percentage and defensive rebounding. Those are the only two things a good defense should focus on.

Shaq is the Suns best defensive rebounder, i don't know why you think defensive rebounding is so unimportant, but by saying Lopez should start over Shaq you're saying lets give the opposing team 10+ offensive rebounds, a career night from either their PF/C, and in exchange Lopez might be able to block a few shots that Shaq would not have been able to.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

And because Lopez was able to body-up Howard, Amare grabbed 14 rebounds, way more than his average. Seriously, there's impact that can't be seen through stats alone.

OK, Shaq would be able to body Howard up a lot more effectively than Lopez, and Lopez only saw a healthy Howard for half the game. If Howard is able to finish the game, Suns lose easily. He also didn't really "body up" Howard, Howard was on pace for a gigantic night before his injury. 7 rebounds at half time.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

The Suns built a bigger lead when Howard was in then what they won by. Howard's departure hurt the Suns. They may not have won had he stayed in, but they had figured out how to do their best against him and had outscored the Magic by nearly 20 points from the second quarter on when Howard left. From that point on, the Suns were outscored.

You can't not play a player, insert him at random and expect him to just get it and play at a high level. He needs minutes. He needs consistency. He needs to play with a specific rotation to learn their ins and outs.

I don't understand why you hold a rookie to such a high standard. It's almost pathetic how much you seemingly despise the kid.

Play him consistently with the same players and let a chemistry develop. He's not a lost cause. He'll improve.

His role on this team was supposed to be the role of a Maxiell or a Millsap, he does not need minutes or consistency to grab rebounds and hustle, that's the whole point of a hustle player, you don't need to give them minutes to get production, they are supposed to give 110% in whatever time you give them. I don't know how I'm holding him to high standards, I'm not saying he should drop 20 a night, I'm saying he should be able to do what Millsap or Maxiell did their rookie year since Kerr used a top 15 pick on him mainly because he was the most "NBA ready" player available.

[JMarkJohns]

OK, Shaq would be able to body Howard up a lot more effectively than Lopez, and Lopez only saw a healthy Howard for half the game. If Howard is able to finish the game, Suns lose easily. He also didn't really "body up" Howard, Howard was on pace for a gigantic night before his injury. 7 rebounds at half time.


I don't think rebounding is unimportant. I know it's very important. However, I also know the strengths of this team. Shaq is a square peg to the Nash/Richardson/Barnes/Amare hole. Lopez fits better with that unit. If given time, he could really develop nicely running alongside Amare and Nash.

Since you like to break down statisics to a per-40 average, Dwight typically averages 15.5 per 40 minutes. Last night, vs. this inferior rebounding unit of Lopez and Amare, he was on pace to average just 12.5 per.

You really like to speak in absolutes where no absolute was a guarantee. Howard actually had a -15 differential on the evening and the Suns were up, despite his monstrous numbers to that point, when he left.

We are both right on a few things. You are correct that Shaq is the better option vs. bigger teams or when half-court offense would be of more benefit. I am correct in saying that if they choose to run, and wish to do so with the biggest lineup possible, then Lopez, not Shaq is the best fit.

However, your claims of Lopez's suckdom are grossly overstated. You completely dismiss a player who's been given very little time to prove himself this season, but has done well at times when he has been given the chance.

It may not be an easy learning process, and I'm not saying to play him 40 minutes a night, but in their running lineups, Lopez for 20 is better than Shaq for 20. he won't get in the way, he won't slow things down, he won't take shots... He'll play hard, he'll body-up, he'll tip rebounds to spark transition opportunites and he'll play good help defense.

Shaq coming off the bench would dominate just about every second unit in the League.

1. Nash, Richardson, Barnes, Amare, Lopez
- Maximizes transition skills and athleticism without giving up on defense and rebounding.

2. Nash, Barbosa, Richardson, Barnes, Amare
- Maxmizes transition skills and athleticism, but gives up defense and rebounding.

3. Nash, Richardson, Hill, Barnes, Amare
- Gets a lot out of their transition skills and athleticism, keeps a semblence of perimeter defense through Hill's smarts and Barnes and Richardson's athleticism, but is vulnerable on the boards, still

4. Nash, Richardson, Barnes, Amare, Shaq
- Limits the teams ability to maximize its transition skills. Does spread the floor for Shaq, better, though. Some defense, good rebounding.

5. Nash, Richardson, Hill, Amare, Shaq
- Limits the team's ability to maximize its transition skills, limits the ability to spread the floor. Slightly better defense and rebounding.

Those are the realistic starting lineup options. The two best are #1, #3 and #4... However, if you want to play to the greatest number of strengths, then it has to be #1.

It doesn't have to be for long stretches, but for roughly 8-to-10 minutes a half, I think it would be a great idea to get the most out of the transition potential.

[JMarkJohns]

His role on this team was supposed to be the role of a Maxiell or a Millsap, he does not need minutes or consistency to grab rebounds and hustle, that's the whole point of a hustle player, you don't need to give them minutes to get production, they are supposed to give 110% in whatever time you give them. I don't know how I'm holding him to high standards, I'm not saying he should drop 20 a night, I'm saying he should be able to do what Millsap or Maxiell did their rookie year since Kerr used a top 15 pick on him mainly because he was the most "NBA ready" player available.

Wrong. He needs to learn spots on the floor. He needs to discover how to play with certain lineups and vs. specific oppositions.

Also, you are not giving credit to his tap-backs to wings. His rebounding is skewed because of that. Probably by two or three a game.

And your boy Maxiell averaged just 4 defensive rebounds and 7 total in his rookie year. Lopez is at 3 defensive and 6 total.

Hardly enough of a difference to write off the kid the way you have.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Saying Shaq slows down their unit is completely false. By your thought process, the Lakers should have started Kurt Rambis over Kareem because Kareem can't run. Fast breaks don't need all 5 players, and in order to get a fast break opportunity you need to have gotten the defensive rebound. I also don't care what Howard did, he was injured half the time he stayed in the game, the 1st quarter was the only indication of when they played a healthy Howard.

"he won't slow things down, he won't take shots... He'll play hard, he'll body-up, he'll tip rebounds to spark transition opportunites and he'll play good help defense."

Shaq being slow doesn't mean it makes the other 4 players slow, and I don't get where you get the idea Lopez is such a speedster. If anything Lopez will slow them down because they need to rebound by committee when Lopez is at center because he can't be relied on to get the rebound himself.

I find it funny you say he'll body up, if he was able to body up he wouldn't be such an inefficient rebounder. This tip rebound concept you seem to be getting an erection over is dumb. Tipping rebounds doesn't initiate fast breaks, when someone is forced to tip a rebound to a teammate it's because they weren't in position to secure the rebound them self. Also tipped rebounds go to the opposing team half the time. Shaq can get the rebound and make the outlet pass, Lopez can do neither. Mike D'antoni even said the Suns became a better fast break team with Shaq because he can initiate fast breaks.

What the hell is good "help defense"? He's 7 feet tall and he can block someone who's 6'6"? Cool, Shaq can do that as well, Shaq can control the paint and not give up offensive rebounds left and right.

Just because a team runs an up tempo offense, doesn't mean they can't have a legit center on the floor. Getting the stop should be a sure thing before the fast break is initiated, if a team is sacrificing defensive rebounds to get a few more fast break chances, they need to adjust.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Wrong. He needs to learn spots on the floor. He needs to discover how to play with certain lineups and vs. specific oppositions.

Also, you are not giving credit to his tap-backs to wings. His rebounding is skewed because of that. Probably by two or three a game.

And your boy Maxiell averaged just 4 defensive rebounds and 7 total in his rookie year. Lopez is at 3 defensive and 6 total.

Hardly enough of a difference to write off the kid the way you have.

I'm not giving credit to his tap backs to wings and I find it incredibly retarded that you think tapping a rebound out because you weren't in position to get it yourself is the same thing as getting a rebound.

And you just walked into a trap with the Maxiell comparison. Maxiell played in 26 games and averaged 6 minutes a game among those games, so it's not like people were saying start Maxiell, he was for the most part a bench warmer, just like Robin should be until he adds strength.

[Spurs Brazil]

Report: Bell Asked For Trade

Dec 13, 2008 3:42 PM EST
Phoenix guard Raja Bell asked for a trade two weeks ago, according to a KTAR-AM report that was confirmed by two team sources.

"I wish them the best of luck. That part of my life is over," Bell said when reached for comment on Friday.

It has also been revealed that Bell had inquired about an extension this summer with two years left on his deal.

http://basketball.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/55972/20081213/report_bell_asked_for_trade/

[JMarkJohns]

It's painfully obvious that no common ground is going to be reached. I no longer care since I doubt Porter will attempt my rotations, content to allow a plodding Shaq disrupt the fastbreak potential of the first string athletes, content to allow Shaq to clog the lane and steal touches from Nash, Richardson and Amare and keep them out of their element.

It's nice to see a Suns fan passionate about the team, even if its in his criticism of a 20-year old prospect.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

It's not my criticism of a 20 year old, I'm not saying cut him or trade him, I'm saying do with him what the Spurs did with Oberto, who was almost 30 when he was a rookie, and turn him into an NBA player who can use something other than height to get rebounds. Oberto got little to no PT his rookie year, the next year, he was the starter on a title team.

I also think you're buying into this clogging the lane thing too much, Shaq is slowing the team down and clogging the lane because Porter should have been starting Hill and they didn't have a legit 2-guard, fortunately I said they didn't since they have one now. Barnes has been great when he is playing the right role, but Shaq was killing the offense only when Barnes and Bell were starting and the defense could clog the lane on Shaq and rotate on those two without worrying about penetration.

Look at the games when both and Hill and Shaq start and you'll see how much better the turnovers and offense is, they are undefeated when both of them start by the way.

Just look at last year, Shaq was extremely impressive when the Suns had a healthy Grant Hill, when Hill's body fell apart in the playoffs, SA had no problem stopping him. Trust me when I say this you will see a different Shaq now that J-Rich and Hill are starting. Shaq actually creates space with the right personnel on the floor.

[JMarkJohns]

Shaq and Hill are halfcourt players whle Nash, Amare and Richardson are fullcourt. Hill can play both, but not for long stretches and hopefully not for many minutes due to his fragile nature.

I hope you're right. I'm not saying the Suns can't get better starting Hill and Shaq. But to me, skills fit better with the lineups I proposed. Nash, Richardson, Barnes, Amare Lopez with Dragic (or a vet PG), Barbosa, Hill, Dudley and Shaq off the bench. Hill can run point, taking pressure off Dragic and Barbosa and Shaq can dominate. Barbosa is a bit out of place, but he's a good spot-up shooter, so he can spread the floor. Dudley can hit from outside as well.

I'm not saying these should be played excludively, but they should be given a shot and played for large stretches at a time. Each unit complements the other, in my opinion, without placing limitations, skills-wise or physical upon the others of differing skillset.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I think Barnes is best suited as an off the bench player, he's got the toughness and length the be a Posey type player, question is does he have the discipline and intelligence.

I know you said they need Robin's help defense, but the truth is they aren't legit contenders until Nash Richardson and Amare all commit to defense and take pride in it. I know Nash will never be Chris Paul, but there is no reason he can't fight through screens better or be more disciplined. Just because he isn't a big guy doesn't mean he gets to roam around and play defense like a 5 year old with A.D.H.D., Jason Williams did his job on defense when he was on Miami in 2006 and he's just as physically ungifted as Nash is.

The problem is they don't know how to play good defense. They seem to think they can hold the opposing team to 0 sometimes. Their goal should be forcing the other team to take a low percentage shot, but the way they play defense they try too hard to block the shot or force the turnover. You need to scout the other team and create a plan as to what limits the offense, and the Suns simply don't do that.

When you're playing the Hornets, you need to either let Chris Paul score or let Chris Paul pass, the Suns think they can stop both, and consequently Chris Paul does both. That's an example.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

It's painfully obvious that no common ground is going to be reached. I no longer care since I doubt Porter will attempt my rotations, content to allow a plodding Shaq disrupt the fastbreak potential of the first string athletes, content to allow Shaq to clog the lane and steal touches from Nash, Richardson and Amare and keep them out of their element.

It's nice to see a Suns fan passionate about the team, even if its in his criticism of a 20-year old prospect.

Shaq doesn't disrupt fast break opportunities, he didn't last year when they had a more definitive defensive strategy. What disrupts fast break opportunities is being unable to get defensive rebounds AND being unable to force turnovers. When the Suns had Marion last year, they got fast break chances by forcing turnovers, getting steals and blocks, and having a guy who can suck down lose balls (awkward). After they got Shaq, D'antoni told Shaq and Amare to guard their man, get the defensive rebound and only play help D if it didn't compromise the ability to get the rebound, even if it meant conceding a basket. Shaq is one of the most dangerous outlet passing big men contrary to what you may think and can initiate fast breaks as well as anyone. This strategy limited 2nd chance points from the other team and initiated fast breaks, but the other team's FG% went way up. It was a trade off, just like Popovich trades the ability to defend Amare for the ability to completely shut down three point shooters.

The fast break chances are down this year because even though you may think Porter is a good defensive coach, he has them playing help defense when they don't have proper athleticism and energy from their PF and C, which means they try to force turnovers but can't, and in addition give up more offensive boards. If you think Lopez is gonna solve this problem you're kidding yourself. If you aren't forcing turnovers and you aren't getting defensive rebounds, you're not gonna get fast break chances. It's that simple. Shaq has nothing to do with it. It's not like playing a small lineup that sucks at rebounding means fast break opportunities just happen.

[kcplayboi_26]

Suns will be alright just watch and see what happens. Obviously its gonna take time for everything to click, id rather have them play like this then feburary

[K-State Spur]

Saying Shaq slows down their unit is completely false.

Not really. You are correct that he doesn't necessarily prevent fast breaks, but he does clog up the offense in a couple of ways.

First, his very presence still commands double teams, which gives you an advantage in the halfcourt, which means that (once the fast break has been prevented) you want to wait for him to get set before initiating the offense.

Second, he clogs the lane offensively which slows down penetration.

So, in a way, you're both right. He can lead to more fast breaks and slow down the offense at the same time.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Suns will be alright just watch and see what happens. Obviously its gonna take time for everything to click, id rather have them play like this then feburary

I know they'll be alright, I'm saying they aren't gonna contend unless Nash and Amare stop worrying able how much "fun" they're having and worry more about what it takes to win. Getting a steal or a block is "fun", limiting ball movement and forcing the other team to hurry because of time left on the shot clock isn't "fun" but it's championship basketball.

[lurker]

Report: Bell Asked For Trade

Dec 13, 2008 3:42 PM EST
Phoenix guard Raja Bell asked for a trade two weeks ago, according to a KTAR-AM report that was confirmed by two team sources.

"I wish them the best of luck. That part of my life is over," Bell said when reached for comment on Friday.

It has also been revealed that Bell had inquired about an extension this summer with two years left on his deal.

http://basketball.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/55972/20081213/report_bell_asked_for_trade/
If Raja asked for a trade, I wonder why he didn't tell Nash. Kinda shitty to just let him be blindsided about it.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Not really. You are correct that he doesn't necessarily prevent fast breaks, but he does clog up the offense in a couple of ways.

First, his very presence still commands double teams, which gives you an advantage in the halfcourt, which means that (once the fast break has been prevented) you want to wait for him to get set before initiating the offense.

Second, he clogs the lane offensively which slows down penetration.

So, in a way, you're both right. He can lead to more fast breaks and slow down the offense at the same time.

Exactly. If they aren't able to score quickly, Shaq is the perfect insurance policy to initiate the half court offense.

He doesn't slow down penetration, the reason so many people say that is because before they got J-Rich and when Porter inexplicably started Barnes over Hill, they were a horrible team at half court penetration. The Suns are undefeated this year when both Hill and Shaq start, go check that if you don't believe me. Shaq clogs the lane when he's the only half court threat on the floor. Look at how amazing he's been when Hill starts and Shaq has someone who can deliver him an entry pass at the proper spot and angle and has a penetrator in Hill who can draw defenders away from Shaq. When Wade was out early last year Miami had the same problem because teams could just pack it in on Shaq.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

If Raja asked for a trade, I wonder why he didn't tell Nash. Kinda shitty to just let him be blindsided about it.

He probably did tell Nash, Nash just likes to whine about everything and make himself look like the victim. I went from idolizing this guy to losing all the respect I've had for him because of this season. This concept he has where he thinks just because he's good at offense doesn't mean he has to play intelligent or energetic defense is frustrating. If Tim Duncan thought this way the Spurs wouldn't have won a single ring.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

The players who clog the lane are guys like Erica Dampier and Robin Lopez, or extremely big players who rebound horribly for their size and have no offensive skill other than wide open interior shots.

[kcplayboi_26]

I know they'll be alright, I'm saying they aren't gonna contend unless Nash and Amare stop worrying able how much "fun" they're having and worry more about what it takes to win. Getting a steal or a block is "fun", limiting ball movement and forcing the other team to hurry because of time left on the shot clock isn't "fun" but it's championship basketball.

thats tru

[K-State Spur]

He doesn't slow down penetration, the reason so many people say that is because before they got J-Rich and when Porter inexplicably started Barnes over Hill, they were a horrible team at half court penetration.

By definition, a big man who does most of his work in the paint will slow penetration. It's not Shaq's fault specifically - but his presence keeps the opponent's best interior defender in the general vicinity of the rim. That's why it's so important to the Spurs that Duncan has a reliable mid-range game, it forces the opponents to respect him out to 15-17 feet away from the rim, leaving room for Parker and Ginobili to penetrate.

That doesn't mean that the Suns still can't get to the rim with Shaq in the game (Kobe and Wade did) - it's just more difficult than in the floor were spread with shooters. Of course, you can argue that Shaq more than makes up for that in other areas.

[lurker]

He probably did tell Nash, Nash just likes to whine about everything and make himself look like the victim. I went from idolizing this guy to losing all the respect I've had for him because of this season. This concept he has where he thinks just because he's good at offense doesn't mean he has to play intelligent or energetic defense is frustrating. If Tim Duncan thought this way the Spurs wouldn't have won a single ring.I don't think Steve "likes to whine." He's usually the one that tries to stay positive. It's just getting harder to do that now with this team. He seemed genuinely upset and surprised by the trade to me.


As for the defense issue, it's hard to play energetic defense when your energy is sucked dry on offense. Steve has talked before about wishing he had more energy left so that he could improve his defense. If the Suns had been able to find a back-up that wasn't useless, he wouldn't be so exhausted all the time.

[ploto]

“I have a hard time committing to this as a business,” Nash added. “I take this personally, and I take my career home with me. I care about my teammates. When you lose two of your best friends, it’s hard.”
One thing people may not know about Steve is that he has always been big on players spending time together personally and away from basketball. He believes that if all you ever do is get to know these guys basketball-wise that you miss half of what it means to have an NBA career. He cares about these men and that is nice.

[ducks]

I don't think Steve "likes to whine." He's usually the one that tries to stay positive. It's just getting harder to do that now with this team. He seemed genuinely upset and surprised by the trade to me.


As for the defense issue, it's hard to play energetic defense when your energy is sucked dry on offense. Steve has talked before about wishing he had more energy left so that he could improve his defense. If the Suns had been able to find a back-up that wasn't useless, he wouldn't be so exhausted all the time. bell asked for the trade
if bell wanted out nash should have shut his mouth up about him geting traded

or did he think he could get porter fired and make bell happy again

[Bob Lanier]

What the hell is good "help defense"?

:lmao

[howbouthemspurs]

fuck the suns..... right in the ear.

[Armando]

The Suns will be alright. Is still December plenty of time to get thier act together. Personally I think they should drop the bad Spurs imitation and go back to running.

[Spurtacus]

9 elite teams in the West. This trade might make the Suns the odd man out.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I don't think Steve "likes to whine." He's usually the one that tries to stay positive. It's just getting harder to do that now with this team. He seemed genuinely upset and surprised by the trade to me.


As for the defense issue, it's hard to play energetic defense when your energy is sucked dry on offense. Steve has talked before about wishing he had more energy left so that he could improve his defense. If the Suns had been able to find a back-up that wasn't useless, he wouldn't be so exhausted all the time.

The energy argument doesn't fly. Dwayne Wade is relied on just as much offensively and plays at a great defensive level. I'm not saying Nash needs to be Gary Payton, I'm saying he needs to make the right decision on whether to go over or under the screen and not gamble so much going for the steal. Even D'antoni was extremely frustrated with his discipline on defense guarding players such as Morris Peterson and Derek Fisher, two players that take little to no energy to guard.

[peskypesky]

Damn reading that article is depressing.

Right? And I hate the Suns. But this article makes me feel sad for them. Well, for Nash.

[Spurs Brazil]

Nash: 'I Feel Like I've Been Traded'

Steve Nash is one of three carryovers from the Suns' team from two years back, and according to the Arizona Republic Nash cannot help but feel as though he has been traded.

"I feel like I've been traded," Nash said, chuckling. "I feel like I'm on a different team because everything's changed so much around here. We have a lot of differences now after quite a bit of stability but change can really be positive. Amidst that recent chaos could come strong order. We're all optimistic but it's a strange point with Mike coming and all the changes."

The Suns coach from last season, Mike D'Antoni, will visit Phoenix tonight for the first time as an opposition coach with the New York Knicks.

http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/55997/20081215/nash_i_feel_like_ive_been_traded/

[I Love Me Some Me]

Nash: 'I Feel Like I've Been Traded'

Steve Nash is one of three carryovers from the Suns' team from two years back, and according to the Arizona Republic Nash cannot help but feel as though he has been traded.

"I feel like I've been traded," Nash said, chuckling. "I feel like I'm on a different team because everything's changed so much around here. We have a lot of differences now after quite a bit of stability but change can really be positive. Amidst that recent chaos could come strong order. We're all optimistic but it's a strange point with Mike coming and all the changes."

The Suns coach from last season, Mike D'Antoni, will visit Phoenix tonight for the first time as an opposition coach with the New York Knicks.

http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/55997/20081215/nash_i_feel_like_ive_been_traded/

Uhh...hello Steve? YOU are supposed to be the stability.