Game Thoughts: Spurs vs. Hawks Dec. 10

[timvp]

After the exhausting double-overtime affair against the Dallas Mavericks, would the San Antonio Spurs have much left in the tank the next night against the Atlanta Hawks? As it turned out, the tank was running dry. Thankfully, the Spurs had just enough to squeeze out a 95-89 victory.

In the decisive fourth quarter, Manu Ginobili scored 14 points in the final eight minutes to help the Spurs to the win. His biggest bucket of the game came with 32 seconds left in the contest when he made a vintage Ginobili layup to extend the lead to four points. Coming off of a Tim Duncan pick, Ginobili put a spin move on Al Horford and then converted at the rim.

As for the Hawks, I was impressed by their effort. Like the Spurs, they were playing a back-to-back and it was noticeable. However, whenever the Spurs the made a run to seemingly put the game away, Atlanta fought their way back into the contest. Joe Johnson and Flip Murray specifically played very well.

The Spurs have to be happy with the win. Even though it was ugly, the team could have easily succumbed to the late runs by the Hawks and blamed their tired legs. Instead, San Antonio gutted out a victory to extend their winning streak to four games and improve to 13-8 on the season.

Tim Duncan
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3173.jpg
35 minutes, 19 points, 11 rebounds
7-for-15 from the field, 5-for-8 at the line

Considering that Tim Duncan played 50 minutes the previous night, his effort against the Hawks was extremely impressive. He didn’t dominate the action but he made a number of key plays and while everyone else on the court looked tired at times, Duncan consistently hammered away at the rock. Offensively, he played pretty well but on defense was where he really shined. Duncan played very good post defense and his rotations were timely. He ended up playing 85 minutes on back-to-back nights and did so with a strong finish to the Hawks game to help the Spurs go 2-for-2.
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Manu Ginobili
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3380.jpg
28 minutes, 27 points, five rebounds, three assists, four turnovers
8-for-12 from the field, 5-for-7 on three-pointers, 6-for-6 at the line

Manu Ginobili’s burst at the end of the game was the main reason why the Spurs were able chalk up the W. While it was far from a perfect game for Ginobili, it was good to see him reclaim his shooting stroke. In the previous five games, he was shooting 32.3% from downtown on more than six attempts per game. Against the Hawks, Ginobili struggled a bit with turnovers and his defense was non-existent for stretches but his repeated big plays at the end of the game made up for any miscues. Coming off the bench for the first time in about two weeks, he ended up scoring 27 points in 28 minutes to prove once again that he’s the best in the league at seamlessly switching between starting and reserve roles.
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Tony Parker
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3527.jpg
26 minutes, six points, three assists, three turnovers
3-for-13 from the field

The last time Tony Parker played in a double-overtime contest, he ended up spraining his ankle in the next game and missing three weeks of action. This time, Parker rebounded from the second double-overtime game of the season by having his worst game of the season – by far. Not only did he look like he was moving in quicksand, his decision making was poor. Of his ten missed field goals, six of them were blocked. On defense, he was a step slow all night. Hopefully this ends up being as bad as Parker plays all season.
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Michael Finley
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3023.jpg
32 minutes, 15 points, two blocks
6-for-11 from the field, 1-for-4 on three-pointers

Outside of Ginobili and Duncan, Michael Finley came up the biggest in the fourth quarter. In a span of about three minutes in the final stanza, Finley had three consecutive field goals and then handed out an assist. Those eight points kept the Spurs afloat before he handed off the baton to Ginobili's heroics. Defensively, Finley did a fine job when matched up with Marvin Williams – holding the young Hawk to 1-of-6 shooting from the field. On the season, if you ignore the 1-for-22 slump he went through earlier in the season, Finley has a very respectable shooting percentage of 48.6%.
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Matt Bonner
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3748.jpg
27 minutes, nine points, 13 rebounds, two assists
4-for-8 from the field, 1-for-2 on three-pointers

Another night, another good game for Matt Bonner. Against the Hawks, Bonner again shot the ball well. However, it was his rebounding that really stood out. Bonner ended up with a season-high 13 rebounds in only 27 minutes of action. Seven of his rebounds were of the offensive variety. In addition to his rebounding, he once again played very good defense. Even though Josh Smith might have a slight athletic advantage, Bonner was able to stay in front of him and force him into tough shots. On the season, Bonner surprisingly enough has the best defensive stats on the team. For every 100 possessions he’s on the court, the opposition only scores 84.3 points. That’s far and away the best on the team – second best is Bruce Bowen at 89.
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Roger Mason, Jr.
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3628.jpg
26 minutes, ten points, six rebounds
4-for-9 from the field, 2-for-5 on three-pointers

Roger Mason, Jr. was back in the starting lineup and he had a quiet yet decent performance. He shot the ball well enough, did a good job on the glass and his defense was better than usual. Overall, Mason hasn’t been nearly as explosive in recent games. He hasn’t scored more than 12 points in any of the last six games. While a dip in minutes is part of the reason, the main problem is that he’s simply not getting the looks. With the way he has shot the ball this season, the rest of the team should definitely start looking his way more often.
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Bruce Bowen
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3167.jpg
24 minutes, two rebounds
0-for-1 from the field

Against Dallas, Bruce Bowen had pedestrian stats but he also had a big impact on the game. On this night, Bowen had pedestrian stats and a pedestrian impact. On offense, he missed his only shot attempt in his 24 minutes of play. On the other end, he gave good effort but was unable to be a difference maker. Coming off the bench, Bowen is going to have to be more of a fire extinguisher rather than his customary role as a stopper. Against the Hawks, he was unable to slow down Johnson much at all once he got rolling.
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George Hill
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/4488.jpg
22 minutes, seven points, five assists, three rebounds
2-for-5 from the field, 1-for-2 on three-pointers

With Parker struggling, George Hill was called upon to play a larger role. Although he was unspectacular, he had a solid performance. His passing was impressive and it seems like his court vision is improving as he adjusts to the point guard position. Defensively, he was active and he attacked the boards once again. Hill’s primary negative issues on the night were his stretches of passive play, although he’s getting better and better in that area. It was good to see him play the final seven and a half minutes of a close game and help the team come away with a victory.
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Fabricio Oberto
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3988.jpg
13 minutes, six rebounds
0-for-3 from the field

Although Fabricio Oberto had problems on the offensive end, his great showing on the boards more than made for his shortcomings. Oberto has now had four consecutive good rebounding games after starting the season with an anemic rebounding rate. As long as Oberto is rebounding the ball, he’s good enough in other areas to be a player in the rotation. Along with his rebounding, Oberto also blocked his second shot of the season.
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Kurt Thomas
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3012.jpg
Six minutes, two points
1-for-2 from the field

Considering that the Hawks have a small team that thrives on athleticism, it’s not a surprise that Kurt Thomas only played six minutes. In his time on the court, he didn’t make much of a mark. Going forward, it appears as if Thomas is locked into the role as the team’s fourth bigman. The only games he’ll likely get extended minutes are the ones in which the Spurs face a behemoth center.
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Ime Udoka
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3501.jpg
One minute

For the second straight game, Ime Udoka saw one minute of playing time. After securing a rebound and then throwing the ball away, he was quickly pulled from the game and never seen again.
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Gregg Popovich
http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/topstory/sports/popovich_gregg030428.jpg

Pop did a good job of putting his tired team in a position to win the game. Going with Hill over Parker was absolutely the right move. In fact, more of Hill and less of Parker probably would have been ever better. Pop going with Finley in the fourth quarter paid immediate dividends. I also liked the continuous plays for Ginobili that Pop called. The two questions I had on the night were regarding Bonner and Mason. First of all, what more does Bonner have to do to earn more minutes? Bonner sitting and watching the final ten minutes of the game was surprising. Secondly, why is he limiting Mason’s minutes? This was the fourth straight game with less than 30 minutes. More of Mason and less of Finley is probably good for each player and the team as a whole – both in the short term and the long term.
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Offense

Though the offense definitely struggled at times, the end result was a decent enough showing. On the game, the Spurs shot 44.3% from the field and connected on half of their 20 three-point attempts. Their 18 assists were a bit low as were their 22 free throw attempts, especially since eight of those attempts were a result of either intentional fouls or technicals. The worst stat was the team’s season-high 17 turnovers. Luckily, the Spurs saved their best quarter for last, scoring 33 points in the fourth.

Defense

Usually when you go to grade a defensive performance by the Spurs, the number you look at is the opponent’s field goal percentage. However, on this night, it was the rebounding that really stood out. The Spurs had a monstrous 52-27 advantage on the boards. That advantage helped overcome the 46.8% the Hawks shot from the floor and the fact that the transition defense was poor for much of the game, which allowed Atlanta to outscore the Spurs 25-6 on fast break points. The Spurs also deserve acknowledgment for holding the Hawks to only 14 free throw attempts and limiting the Hawks to 6-for-19 from beyond the arc. Coming into the game, the Hawks were third in the NBA in both three-pointers made and three-point percentage.

Drive to Five

After patting themselves on the back for sweeping a difficult back-to-back set, the Spurs head to Minnesota for a game against Kevin McHale and the Timberwolves on Friday night. Although the T’Wolves are riding a seven-game losing streak, they’ve played much better since the coaching change. Hopefully the Spurs come out with the appropriate fear and take care of business.

Believe.

[raspsa]

I'm impressed with Finley's performance this season. His off-season regimen is paying off and in particular his defense has been a notch above what we normally expect of him. As long as he continues playing at this level, he'll continue to get the minutes.

[anakha]

On the season, Bonner surprisingly enough has the best defensive stats on the team. For every 100 possessions he’s on the court, the opposition only scores 84.3 points.

Interesting.

[silk]

Can we safely say, now, that bonner streak of good games is not a fluke ?

He could be a key against L.A if we have to play them in important games, prying bynum away from the basket

What do you think is the rationale bout pop kind of limiting his minutes, while he seems to have almost boundless energy ?

I am somewhat surprised at the level finley's playing at, i thought udoka would have got the job, i just hope finley's age don't begin to show late in te season or in the post-season, kind of steve smith when he played decently in regular season and suddenly couldn't hit shit in may..But i don't want to jinx him ^^

[Brazil]

Can we safely say, now, that bonner streak of good games is not a fluke ?

I was posting the exact same question ! Is Bonner for real ?

[sonic21]

Another night, another good game for Matt Bonner

:tu

[silk]

the aspect of his game which astonishe me the most is his defense, he can stay in front of his man on the perimeter, but also, when opposed to rude big men a la Nene, hold his own ( I didn't get to watch the mavs game, but, i would have thought he would have been able to do a semi-decent job on dirk, i mean sort of like dampier or diop against Timmy)

Then, his teammates don't seem particularly suprised, i mean, on the court, they act sometimes as if bonner could do still better

I guess they have to be that way but still...in practice, bonner may have done very well for a good amount of time also

I also begin to think he could handle the pressure well, he seems to really have integrated the 'no-conscious' part when it come to shooting

[Bruno]

Nice read, thanks. :)

What I do like lately about Spurs is that bigmen start to play better. It's obvious for Bonner but it's also true for Oberto and Thomas even if they don't get that much playing time due to matchups.
A statical evidence of that is the rebounding number. At the start of the season Spurs bigmen outside of Duncan were awful at rebounding the ball and they are doing a great job lately.
In December (5 games played) , Bonner+Oberto+Thomas have grabbed 70 rebounds in 234min. It makes 14rpg in 46.8mpg.

[MI21]

Matt Bonner
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3748.jpg
27 minutes, nine points, 13 rebounds, two assists
4-for-8 from the field, 1-for-2 on three-pointers

Another night, another good game for Matt Bonner. Against the Hawks, Bonner again shot the ball well. However, it was his rebounding that really stood out. Bonner ended up with a season-high 13 rebounds in only 27 minutes of action. Seven of his rebounds were of the offensive variety. In addition to his rebounding, he once again played very good defense. Even though Josh Smith might have a slight athletic advantage, Bonner was able to stay in front of him and force him into tough shots. On the season, Bonner surprisingly enough has the best defensive stats on the team. For every 100 possessions he’s on the court, the opposition only scores 84.3 points. That’s far and away the best on the team – second best is Bruce Bowen at 89.
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:lol

[urunobili]

thanks timvp! i agree probably Tony should have been given the night off a little earlier

[timvp]

Can we safely say, now, that bonner streak of good games is not a fluke ?
I don't think quite yet. I'm interested in seeing what happens the next time he has a bad game. Will he bounce back and keep playing like the consciousless version of Bonner or will he go back to the version of Bonner that was so scared to make a mistake that he'd freeze up? More importantly, will Pop lose confidence in him the next time Bonner has a bad game? The sample size is still a bit too small to say that Bonner is for real. We'll have a better idea after 15 to 20 more games.

That said, we never really know a player's value until we see what they do in the playoffs. If Bonner goes Hedo in the playoffs, this good run will be long forgotten.

[MoSpur]

Can we safely say that Udoka might be part of a trade or trade rumor coming up in the near future?

[dougp]

Tim - do you think that we need to go exclusive Hill/Mason & Parker/Gino? Only reason I say that is because it seems like Tony & Manu are really only creating for themselves or Duncan - it then appears up to Duncan to involve Mason or Bonner. It's getting frustrating with some of the stupid shots Manu and Tony are taking when Mason and Bonner are on fire ...

[Indazone]

Spurs played well in this game. Atlanta is actually a pretty good team. Just not enough experience to get over the hump with all their young players.

[The Truth #6]

I agree that if Bonner goes Hedo in the playoffs then probably much will be forgotten of his good play so far.

However, I had thought Hedo didn't start to play well until mid January, where as Bonner has been playing well already for a while now into the season, and the expectations are probably lower for Bonner.

Also, if Bonner continues to play good position defense and rebound, a poor shooting might not be as big of a disaster as it was for Hedo. However, like you hinted at, will Bonner be able to maintain his composure if not all of his game is clicking at the same time?

[K-State Spur]

I'll take any win in the second half of a back-to-back vs. 2 teams with winning records.

Plus, I think the fact that that officials took the night off (not biased - they just didn't make any calls period) made the game look uglier than it needed to.

[z0sa]

Bruce Bowen

24 minutes, two rebounds
0-for-1 from the field

Against Dallas, Bruce Bowen had pedestrian stats but he also had a big impact on the game. On this night, Bowen had pedestrian stats and a pedestrian impact. On offense, he missed his only shot attempt in his 24 minutes of play. On the other end, he gave good effort but was unable to be a difference maker. Coming off the bench, Bowen is going to have to be more of a fire extinguisher rather than his customary role as a stopper. Against the Hawks, he was unable to slow down Johnson much at all once he got rolling.

This is the whole reason Pop needs to start him still. Bowen is good at never letting an opposing scorer get into rhythm through ball denial and his usual hound defense.

When they're already in a rhythm, the damage has been done, and even a guy like Bowen might have trouble icing em down.

[pad300]

I don't think quite yet. I'm interested in seeing what happens the next time he has a bad game. Will he bounce back and keep playing like the consciousless version of Bonner or will he go back to the version of Bonner that was so scared to make a mistake that he'd freeze up? More importantly, will Pop lose confidence in him the next time Bonner has a bad game? The sample size is still a bit too small to say that Bonner is for real. We'll have a better idea after 15 to 20 more games.

That said, we never really know a player's value until we see what they do in the playoffs. If Bonner goes Hedo in the playoffs, this good run will be long forgotten.

As a minor style note:

Conscious - what you lose when someone hits on the head with a baseball bat, or what TiMVP loses when he goes binge drinking with Sequ...

Conscience - What a ruthless assassin who shoots on sight of the net has none of...

I suspect you mean the second one when you write "consciousless version of Bonner" - either that or you've got some inside knowledge about this streak of good Bonner games....

[urunobili]

I agree that if Bonner goes Hedo in the playoffs then probably much will be forgotten of his good play so far.

However, I had thought Hedo didn't start to play well until mid January, where as Bonner has been playing well already for a while now into the season, and the expectations are probably lower for Bonner.

Also, if Bonner continues to play good position defense and rebound, a poor shooting might not be as big of a disaster as it was for Hedo. However, like you hinted at, will Bonner be able to maintain his composure if not all of his game is clicking at the same time?

if he is not going to choke Pop definitively needs to give him more 4th quarter minutes in close games for him to get used to it... :downspin:

[dbreiden83080]

Very impressive game for Tim with all those minutes logged the night before..

[de Soto]

Tony Parker's trend since his return is extremely disconcerting. He's not the same player he was before his injury. Parker has exhibited similar traits earlier in his career. I think he's not the mentally toughest player around. Luckily playoffs are far ahead of us.

[Quasar]

what more does Bonner have to do to earn more minutes? Bonner sitting and watching the final ten minutes of the game was surprising.

I got the impression from the video post game interview that Pop still doesn't like (or trust) Matt Bonner very much.

When asked about Bonner's great performance and rebounds, his body language was not very just encouraging - he just said something about Bonner making the most of his minutes... and then that was it. No encouraging words for him on how he's been working hard, how Pop's glad that he's shot himself out of the funk... nothing.

Compare that with what Pop says about Finley, Hill, or even Beno - Pop once said Beno was the best passer on the team when Beno was pretty much a bench rider!

[Brazil]

Tony Parker's trend since his return is extremely disconcerting. He's not the same player he was before his injury. Parker has exhibited similar traits earlier in his career. I think he's not the mentally toughest player around. Luckily playoffs are far ahead of us.
??
Can you explain ? I don't get your point ?

[The Truth #6]

I got the impression from the video post game interview that Pop still doesn't like (or trust) Matt Bonner very much.

When asked about Bonner's great performance and rebounds, his body language was not very just encouraging - he just said something about Bonner making the most of his minutes... and then that was it. No encouraging words for him on how he's been working hard, how Pop's glad that he's shot himself out of the funk... nothing.

Compare that with what Pop says about Finley, Hill, or even Beno - Pop once said Beno was the best passer on the team when Beno was pretty much a bench rider!

I hope that's not the case and it's more like Pop is not trying to make Bonner conscious of the good run he is having.

But for the most part I think it's difficult to try and psychoanalyze Pop's ticks and shrugs. I don't think even Kyra Sedgewick could find out what's really going on inside his head.

[xtremesteven33]

I got the impression from the video post game interview that Pop still doesn't like (or trust) Matt Bonner very much.

When asked about Bonner's great performance and rebounds, his body language was not very just encouraging - he just said something about Bonner making the most of his minutes... and then that was it. No encouraging words for him on how he's been working hard, how Pop's glad that he's shot himself out of the funk... nothing.



I agree. Ive been saying that i still dont think Pop is fully trustworthy in Bonner for a set starting lineup. I dont trust him fully either. I think the lineup will eventually go back with Oberto starting. Thats his spot in the playoffs cause he can work the best with the Big 3.

But dont count Bonner out! I can see him playing a HUGE role if he continues to play well. Coming off the bench, if he continues to hustle for rebounds and knock down shots hell be one of our biggest assets. I just dont see him as a lock for starting position.

[spursfaninla]

so far, it looks to me that pop is putting fin ahead of mason and hill in the wings rotation because fin can play the 3 and score.

Mason and Hill do not seem to play as well when they don't get 30+ minutes, at least not yet. It seems that with either parker or manu on the floor with them, they tend not to shoot enough.

Hopefully pop figures out how to get the most from these two; so far, the team has been trying to integrate manu and parker and is worrying about the 2nd pair later, but in the long term we will be better if we figure out how to get them minutes.

[DPG21920]

TimVP? How can you say Fin deserves less minutes and Roger more? I mean, Fin is playing better defense than Roger imo and he hit those huge shots (3 in a row) and dished and assist when the game was on the line?

[SpursFanFirst]

First of all, what more does Bonner have to do to earn more minutes?



I'm interested in seeing what happens the next time he has a bad game. Will he bounce back and keep playing like the consciousless version of Bonner or will he go back to the version of Bonner that was so scared to make a mistake that he'd freeze up? The sample size is still a bit too small to say that Bonner is for real. We'll have a better idea after 15 to 20 more games.

Perhaps THIS is the answer to your question.
Maybe Pop is waiting for that other shoe to drop (a down game) to see how Bonner handles it before rewarding him with more play time.

[z0sa]

The reason Pop is not giving bonner all the credit in the world is

1) He feels like a douche for benching so long

2) He's afraid too much praise will result in Bonner becoming "conscious" again

Interms of minutes, it's still early.

[MoSpur]

He's showcasing Bonner to trade him away for a real center

[SpursIndonesia]

??
Can you explain ? I don't get your point ?

I'm a Parker HATER, waah, waah. :rolleyes

[whottt]

I never had a doubt Bonner could put up numbers if given minutes...in fact I spent most of last season arguing just that with a certain segment of ST Posters.

What I doubted then...what I still kind of wonder about, is Bonner's ability to perform under pressure.

Flat out...this guy in previous seasons has completely lost it offensively when it was any kind of a pressure situation.

What I've been excited about this season is that Bonner has been performing well in those situations...

Can he continue that?

Can he do it in big games, especially the playoffs?

That jump he has to make is mental one...

[Brazil]

I'm a Parker HATER, waah, waah. :rolleyes

never said that dude, I just don't understand your point

[Obstructed_View]

Thanks for the notes, LJ. I sprained my ankle and haven't been doing anything the last few days, so I'm way behind.

I missed the first half of the Dallas game and Dish Network's local channels took a crap with a few seconds left in regulation, but I noticed a little wrinkle the Spurs seem to have added: It looks like they're sending one guy at the offensive glass while everyone else gets back on D, and it seems to be paying dividends. Anyone else noticing that in other games?

[xtremesteven33]

He's showcasing Bonner to trade him away for a real center



We can keep bonner and still trade and or sign for a real center

[timvp]

Tim - do you think that we need to go exclusive Hill/Mason & Parker/Gino? Only reason I say that is because it seems like Tony & Manu are really only creating for themselves or Duncan - it then appears up to Duncan to involve Mason or Bonner. It's getting frustrating with some of the stupid shots Manu and Tony are taking when Mason and Bonner are on fire ...They don't have to go that far but you're right in that the chemistry isn't there for all the guard combos. Specifically Ginobili and Hill have a lot of kinks to work out. When paired together, Ginobili is a bit overaggressive and Hill becomes passive. Hill should defer somewhat but not as much as he's deferring at the moment.

Parker and Ginobili has been a really good combo. +/- wise it's the most productive duo on the team . . .

[timvp]

As a minor style note:

Conscious - what you lose when someone hits on the head with a baseball bat, or what TiMVP loses when he goes binge drinking with Sequ...

Conscience - What a ruthless assassin who shoots on sight of the net has none of...

I suspect you mean the second one when you write "consciousless version of Bonner" - either that or you've got some inside knowledge about this streak of good Bonner games....I'm pretty sure conscious is the word I'm looking for. Meaning Bonner is playing like he has shut down his brain function and is instead playing like a zombie.

:smokin

[urunobili]

What I doubted then...what I still kind of wonder about, is Bonner's ability to perform under pressure.

Never thought you thought he is a choker...


Flat out...this guy in previous seasons has completely lost it offensively when it was any kind of a pressure situation. He missed a game winning shot if i remember well... couldn;t agree more...


What I've been excited about this season is that Bonner has been performing well in those situations...

the first 6,7 games he was as horrid as it gets... it wasn't until he got his starting gig that he upped his level dramatically... around Manu's return he was starting to get better...


Can he continue that? until Pop puts him in those situations we won;t know...


Can he do it in big games, especially the playoffs? a better question is... will he do better than Scola then?


That jump he has to make is mental one...a question 4 ya on this... what could it be done to help on that matter?

[timvp]

Tony Parker's trend since his return is extremely disconcerting. He's not the same player he was before his injury. Parker has exhibited similar traits earlier in his career. I think he's not the mentally toughest player around. Luckily playoffs are far ahead of us.In the previous three games, he was averaging 22.6 points and 8.7 assists on 50% shooting. Sounds like you are overreacting. He had a bad game but it's a little to be pulling out the mentally weak card.


I got the impression from the video post game interview that Pop still doesn't like (or trust) Matt Bonner very much.Tough to say. Pop's history is that he benched Bonner at the drop of the hat. But this is a different version than Bonner.

With as well as Bonner is playing, the best thing to do is to probably ignore it and hope he keeps it up :lol


TimVP? How can you say Fin deserves less minutes and Roger more? I mean, Fin is playing better defense than Roger imo and he hit those huge shots (3 in a row) and dished and assist when the game was on the line?I'm talking about on the whole. The Spurs will lean on Mason a whole lot more than Finley come playoff time. Finley has already proven he's not capable of shouldering a load in the postseason. Hopefully Mason can. The Spurs need Mason to be the fourth scorer to win a championship this season. On the other hand, whatever Finley does or doesn't provide is a bonus. If Finley doesn't play in the playoffs, the Spurs could still hypothetically win the championship. But they can't do it without Mason.


The reason Pop is not giving bonner all the credit in the world is

1) He feels like a douche for benching so longHa. If Bonner would have played consciousless earlier on in his Spurs career, he probably could have carved out a lot more minutes. Even earlier this season Bonner was thinking way too much and being hypercritical of himself.

Somehow a switch flipped in that Houston game and he's played damn well since. Bonner's improvement has been one of the most impressive "light going on" moments I've seen from a professional athlete. It's like he woke up one day and suddenly figured out how he needed to play to be successful.


I never had a doubt Bonner could put up numbers if given minutes:jack How many times over the years have you bashed me for supporting the acquisition of Bonner? Triple digits?

[whottt]

Never thought you thought he is a choker...

He missed a game winning shot if i remember well... couldn;t agree more...


Up till this season he's been worse than that...up till this season if the game was even close he couldn't hit the basket....even if it wasn't a particularly meaningful game.






until Pop puts him in those situations we won;t know...

He's done well in them this season...




a better question is... will he do better than Scola then?

:lmao I have the same problem with Scola...that's one of the main things I don't like about him.




a question 4 ya on this... what could it be done to help on that matter?

Nothing really...it's usually something players either have or don't have, not always, but usually. I don't really think there's anything anyone else can do to fix it.

IMO...generally hustle type players are not clutch...my theory is because since they always play hard when the pressure rises they play too hard. Pretty much all players have a tendency to try too hard in those situations but the hustle guys really overdo it.

Whereas guys that don't try hard seemingly most of the time, like oh, Robert Horry for instance, seem to put out just the right amount of effort in those situations.

Just seems to me that the guys with the swagger or the low key guys, almost always turn out to be the clutch ones.

[whottt]

:jack How many times over the years have you bashed me for supporting the acquisition of Bonner? Triple digits?


That's because he was choking his ass off.


Dude...I spent all last season saying Bonner could put similar numbers to Scola if given minutes.

What I didn't like about him is the way he couldn't hit the side of a barn if Bobcats were within 5 points in the first quarter....yet had an @40% 3PT %.

[timvp]

That's because he was choking his ass off. Fair enough. Thankfully this emotionless version of Bonner doesn't seem so adverse to pressure. In fact, his coming out party included two late threes to help beat Houston. Those were literally the first two clutch shots I've seen him hit in a Spurs uniform.


Dude...I spent all last season saying Bonner could put similar numbers to Scola if given minutes. I remember that ... although that was more out of your hate for Scola than any support for Bonner.


What I didn't like about him is the way he couldn't hit the side of a barn if Bobcats were within 5 points in the first quarter....yet had an @40% 3PT %.Eh, he couldn't shoot last year even when there wasn't pressure. He shot like 33% ... which isn't close to good enough for him to remain in the lineup.

This year he's 55% from the field and 51% on threes. That has to come down but the good news is that in his rookie season he shot 53.3% from the floor so it's not like this is a total fluke with no precedence.

[whottt]

This year he's 55% from the field and 51% on threes. That has to come down but the good news is that in his rookie season he shot 53.3% from the floor so it's not like this is a total fluke with no precedence.


That's just my point...his career 3 PCT is pretty nice. I believe it's right at 40%...or it was prior to last season. So what that tells me is that he shoots just fine when he's getting blown out on a lottery team in Toronto...not so good when the games actually mean something. IOW...he's got the ability to hit at a high pct, but fails to do so when the games mean something...

That is choking defined.


And I disagree that my support for Bonner was entirely out of hate for Scola....I legitimately thought Bonner could put up numbers if given minutes. In fact the whole point of that comparision was to point out that Bonner's European numbers were actually superior to Scola's. Yeah Scola played in a better league but you know...the difference isn't as great as it is between Europe and the NBA.

I had the same primary problem with both Scola and Bonner...choking.

Biggest difference between them...Bonner is underrated while Scola is overrated.

If anything...I overestimated Scola by saying he and Bonner had about the same amount of athletic ability...Bonner's actually got more than Scola and I didn't realize that.

[timvp]

That's just my point...his career 3 PCT is pretty nice. I believe it's right at 40%...or it was prior to last season. So what that tells me is that he shoots just fine when he's getting blown out on a lottery team in Toronto...not so good when the games actually mean something. IOW...he's got the ability to hit at a high pct, but fails to do so when the games mean something...

That is choking defined.


And I disagree that my support for Bonner was entirely out of hate for Scola....I legitimately thought Bonner could put up numbers if given minutes. In fact the whole point of that comparision was to point out that Bonner's European numbers were actually superior to Scola's. Yeah Scola played in a better league but you know...the difference isn't as great as it is between Europe and the NBA.

I had the same primary problem with both Scola and Bonner...choking.

Biggest difference between them...Bonner is underrated while Scola is overrated.

If anything...I overestimated Scola by saying he and Bonner had about the same amount of athletic ability...Bonner's actually got more than Scola and I didn't realize that.So by the end of the playoffs do you think Bonner will be seen by Spurs fans as a key piece to the future or a choker who got on a hot regular season streak?

Call it now.

:stirpot:

[DannyT]

i think bonner is not in our rotation after feb.


there will be a mid season trade

[SpursIndonesia]

never said that dude, I just don't understand your point

You misunderstand me, i just say that guy you've questioned on is pretty typical Parker Hater in my book -and since i've been a member of Spurs boards since 2001, right since Tony's rookie year, i must say i can tell one when i see it. ;)

[DPG21920]

I guess we just disagree with how important Finley is, especially if he is actively defending. I think Mason is a player that will be off some nights and Finley is just as capable of being better than Mason on most nights imo. I certainly trust Finley's shot more than Mason's in a big moment as of now.

I do not think we could win a chip with Fin alone, but I disagree that we could win one without him

[z0sa]

Ha. If Bonner would have played consciousless earlier on in his Spurs career, he probably could have carved out a lot more minutes. Even earlier this season Bonner was thinking way too much and being hypercritical of himself.

Don't get me wrong here, I've been in Pop's camp on every issue generally. But I don't think this one falls on Bonner, instead overlapping deeply into coaching territory. Bonner has not played this confidently yet in a Spurs uni, but a big reason is how much pressure Pop was putting on him to perform. I personally believe Pop was just using him in spot minutes to supplement Horry's "rigorous" regular season and never gave a damn if he lived or died out there.


Somehow a switch flipped in that Houston game and he's played damn well since. Bonner's improvement has been one of the most impressive "light going on" moments I've seen from a professional athlete. It's like he woke up one day and suddenly figured out how he needed to play to be successful.

I agree, but I think the HOU game was a lightswitch for both Pop AND Bonner. I think Bonner finally coming in and playing a huge part in that come from behind win did wonders for his confidence. At the same time this was happening, Pop noticed his solid defense and rotations, observed Bonner's shooting ability in a real game time situation where it was needed, as well as his energy on rebounding, and his confidence in Bonner went high.

Pop's doghouse tactics are what kept Bonner tentative in the first place is what I'm getting at. He's always had these abilities, and he's always hustled. It was just consistent playing time to let things click. I must say, I'm very excited with what he's bringing to the table, and how's he proven alot of naysayers wrong over this stretch of games. I'm hoping he keeps it up for a long while to come. :tu

[whottt]

So by the end of the playoffs do you think Bonner will be seen by Spurs fans as a key piece to the future or a choker who got on a hot regular season streak?

Call it now.

:stirpot:


I don't think he's on a regular season hot streak. He can put up these numbers consistently if he gets minutes. He can probably put up even better numbers if he continues to get minutes...he puts out the effort and has the skill set to do so. He's got a nice shot and he's strong as an Ox...and while he may be slow, he's faster than guys like Kurt Thomas or Scola IMO.

Without a doubt Bonner tries too hard when he comes off the bench, like many players do...he does better starting.

The past Spur that immediately springs to mind as a guy who couldn't play off the bench but did well as a starter was Hedo...that does not bode well for Bonner.

It's too early to call whether or not he'll hit shots in big games as a starter.

Clutch is an entirely different animal...plus there are different types of clutchness. I have to withold jugement and actually see him in some big games before making that judgement..for now I'll say he's probably still a choker based on what I've seen from him in his career and his style of play.


Plus...there is more than one type of clutch IMO.

For example:


Manu for instance...I'd say overall Manu is clutch...yet the idea of Manu spotting up for 3 for a game winner is not one I'm absolutely happy with. I'd actually rather see Duncan or Parker taking that shot. Manu simply tries too hard sometimes.

Yet Manu is the type of guy that will explode for an entire fourth quarter in a championship game...moreso than Duncan or Parker IMO....he's also likely the guy to make a winning play when everything breaks down. But spotting up for 3? Uhuh...I don't like Manu taking that shot.

Parker is definitely a guy I am comfortable with taking a last shot...he's done it for his entire career. Parker has always had a knack for hitting buzzer beaters since he was a rookie...he's just got it. He tends to really step up in OT games as well.


Robert Horry OTOH might explode..or he might do nothing and then hit the big shot...that's because Robert Horry was a master of all forms of clutch. Robert Horry had such a low energy level that he only had a normal energy level in situations that gave everyone else a cardiac arrest, and he was confident, and wanted to win. That's what made him Horry.

Duncan is similar to Horry...although I don't like Duncan at the FT line in a clutch situation. There's not a situation I didn't like Horry in when it came to clutch.

David Robinson was different from all these guys..Davi Robinson was neither clutch or unclutch...David simply might do something, or he might not. He did tend to have a tendency for making clutch defensive plays..but offensively he was probably the hardest player to catergorize as clutch or choker that I have ever seen. It's because he was neither.

Brent Barry was similar to Horry although I think he was much more likely to hit a big shot than expode.

Jack: If you gave Jack an open 3 it was money. Jack may be one of the best open 3 shooters I have ever seen.

Kerr: Kerr was like Jack, almost exactly like him. Difference is, no one left him open.

Elie: Elie was a last second type guy...but he was even more of a make it hurt guy. He might go 2-9 from 3 in a big game...but you can be sure those 2 were going to be back breakers that ripped the heart out of the other team.


To take this a step further...

Rasho probably not many people would consider Rasho clutch...but you know, when Rasho took shots in the fourth quarters of big games...especially late, they had a habit of going in. He was never going to give you a big game...but IMO, when he took shots he made them. I realize probably no one shares that opinion. Rasho is the embodiment of a low energy guy without a swagger that performs will in that sort of situation because the adrenaline gives him a normal energy level.




Scola is still different...Scola is the type that will tear it up for the first 3 quarters of a big game and then choke ass in the 4th...and he's not a last second shot guy either.

Scola is a lot like Michael Finley...good enough to trick you into putting him on the court when he doesn't need to be there. I really don't like these types of player...because you can't trust them.

Your boy AJ, if AJ had a clear path to the basket he'd do ok in clutch situations, I saw him have some good 4th quarters in his career when he was allowed to drive...but anything involving him shooting the ball was a disaster. Yes I know he hit that one shot...but I am talking about the other 1000 games of his career.

Bonner I just don't know about Bonner...right now he's definitely not one of the guys I want to see taking the last shot of a game with plenty of time to think about it...but I've never seen him in a truly make or break situation...until I see that I just can't make the call. I don't know that he's capable of a big game in that situation either...

Basically from, what I have seen so far, Bonner has the potential to be one of the most unclutch players I have ever seen....but I haven't seen enough of him to make the call yet...and he is showing improvement.

[timvp]

^ Interesting post :tu

What do you think of Mason? He plays with an Horry-esque calmness about him. He seems to be that type of low energy player who you claim is clutch. Plus he seems to have swagger.

But from your previous posts it doesn't appear as if you like him for some reason . . . .

[Manufan909]

It's funny when everyone is bitching about Bonner not getting enough minutes when he played almost half an hour. Just goes to show you how far he's come. We all used to dread Bonner starting, now I dread Fab getting back in the starting lineup, because I seriuosly doubt he'll have earned it, and Bonner won't have done anything to lose it, Pop will just wake up one day and realize he is starting Matt. Hope Matt can keep on this role, when he plays like Horry(without the shot blocking or clutchness), he is the missing piece of the puzzle.

Now the Spurs just need Ian for athleticism and shot blocking and they're good. I really hope Pop can get away from small ball once Ian is back, there isn't enough minutes for 4 bigs as is, and the way KT and Fab are playing, I don't want them out of the rotation if it can be helped.

[Manufan909]

^ Interesting post :tu

What do you think of Mason? He plays with an Horry-esque calmness about him. He seems to be that type of low energy player who you claim is clutch. Plus he seems to have swagger.

But from your previous posts it doesn't appear as if you like him for some reason . . . .

Hey timvp, this isn't related to the post I quoted, but whatever. Out of the next 7 games, how many have a big center/PF that Pop would need more of KT for?

[timvp]

Hey timvp, this isn't related to the post I quoted, but whatever. Out of the next 7 games, how many have a big center/PF that Pop would need more of KT for?Actually none. The closest would be Sacramento but their bigs play on the perimeter. KT probably won't get extended time until Christmas in Phoenix.

[DPG21920]

Timberwolves - Al Jefferson/Craig Smith
Orlando - Dwight
Toronto - Oneal
Sac - Spencer Hawes, Sheldon Williams and Brad

[024]

bonner's trade value will never be this high again. i highly doubt he has the mentality to be part of the lineup that finishes games and therefore he will not be part of the playoff rotation. trade him if he can't demonstrate that he can close out games. pop hasn't given him the chance maybe because he already knows bonner doesn't have the mentality to make clutch plays.

[Manufan909]

Thanks both of yous guys.:toast

Too bad for KT, he's a good specialist to have, but for the next 2 weeks his return to form will be stunted.

[DPG21920]

KT can guard Al Jefferson down low for a while, same with JO and and spot time with Dwight Howard and I would not be surprised to see him get more minutes in those games than he normally gets (especially if Oberto is not playing well or bonner)

[whottt]

^ Interesting post :tu

What do you think of Mason? He plays with an Horry-esque calmness about him. He seems to be that type of low energy player who you claim is clutch. Plus he seems to have swagger.

But from your previous posts it doesn't appear as if you like him for some reason . . . .


I just don't know enough about him. I could see him being from the Jack or Kerr school of if you leave him open he will kill you...he's got better handles than Jack and more ability than Kerr...but he does seem to need to be open to hit his 3's. You'd think Barry would have belonged in this group but he really didn't...Barry wasn't always that good when he was left open, and he tended to shoot better under pressure. The problem was he didn't like to shoot under pressure...but he usually made them when he did. Even the people that ripped Barry, at a subconcious level felt similar...Barry was a guy you always wanted to see shooting it, and that's not true of a lot of players.

I think the guy with the most potential out of the new guys to be a clutch shooter is Ime Udoka...problem is he isn't likely to get on the court. But I've seen enough from him to know that he can surprise you and step out from being scrub to really stick a dagger...he's very similar to Horry and Elie in that way. A scrub with a sting....

I am unsure about Hill as well...right now I'm gonna say he's shown the potential to be an uberclutch guy that can do anything...he's got the right energy level for it, and he's got a freak body and skills to go with it. I am really excited about George Hill...

[timvp]

Finley is just as capable of being better than Mason on most nights imo.:wow :smchode:


Timberwolves - Al Jefferson/Craig Smith
Orlando - Dwight
Toronto - Oneal
Sac - Spencer Hawes, Sheldon Williams and BradThe key to KT playing substantial minutes is the other team has to have two post threats. None of those combos above = two post threats.

[dougp]

Whott, pay attention to recent games - Manu seems to be 100% when open for a 3pt. It's hilarious hearing my wife go COVER YOUR DAMN MAN when Manu comes off a screen and is left open for like 2 seconds to set himself and pops it.

[xtremesteven33]

It sucks that Mason is being so turnover prone as of late. Hopefully its a lack of chemistry with his teammates, but from what i see it looks like a lack of ballhandling skills cause it looks like he gets ripped pretty easy and gets pick pocketed with some passes he tries to make.

[DPG21920]

Jermaine Oneal and Bosh don't qualify?
Jefferson and Craig Smith when playing together do not qualify?


You do not think that Finley is capable on any given night of out performing Mason? Mason has been good, but right now Fins defense > Masons defense and shots fallen has been up and down for both (so have bad shot selection.)

[timvp]

Jermaine Oneal and Bosh don't qualify?Bosh is more of a perimeter player and O'Neal isn't the same postup threat he used to be.

Oh and Benchednani isn't a interior threat either . . .



Jefferson and Craig Smith when playing together do not qualify?Smith is like 6'5. I haven't seen KT used specifically to guard someone shorter than him.



You do not think that Finley is capable on any given night of out performing Mason? Any given night is different than "most nights" like you said in the post I quoted. Sure Finley can sometimes be Kobe reincarnate some nights. But ask me to pick one of Finley or Mason on any given night and I'll pick Mason no questions asked.

And the defense advantage isn't as notable as you are making it out to be. Finley's defense looks good partly because he was so horrible the last few years on that end of the court. Mason is new and learning at a pretty fast pace.

[DPG21920]

Bosh is more of a perimeter player and O'Neal isn't the same postup threat he used to be.

Oh and Benchednani isn't a interior threat either . . .

Ya, but they usually have someone down low, so you need a perimeter big and a down low big to defend. And by the way, the resident SpursTalker from Toronto said that Bargs is having a really good year, so /that discussion so far.



Smith is like 6'5. I haven't seen KT used specifically to guard someone shorter than him.

Craig smith is 6'7 and he ways 250lbs. He mostly goes down low.


Any given night is different than "most nights" like you said in the post I quoted. Sure Finley can sometimes be Kobe reincarnate some nights. But ask me to pick one of Finley or Mason on any given night and I'll pick Mason no questions asked.

And the defense advantage isn't as notable as you are making it out to be. Finley's defense looks good partly because he was so horrible the last few years on that end of the court. Mason is new and learning at a pretty fast pace.

I clearly said that Fin has a chance to outplay Mason most nights, which is true. That means on most nights that Fin on any given night can outplay Mason because Mason has not established an overall consistency to his game. The reason I said most instead of all, was bc I was acknowledging that Mason is the better player now.

You are doing a huge discredit to Finley by saying he is only good by not sucking on defense. His defense is good compared to many this year.

[DPG21920]

Kurt more run than usual tonight against the Wolves and Finley outplayed Mason again tonight.

[Manufan909]

Yeah, like Mason had equal time to prove himself. I will agree that Fin did better tonight. But the arguement is more that Fin will get more time no matter what. I hope Mason and Hill can avg 28 min this year.

[DPG21920]

Don't act like Mason has not been given time to prove himself. He gets his chances and Finley is playing better ball right now and Pop should go with him. Fact remains, Mason alone is not good enough. Finley alone is not good enough. Spurs need both in order to be successful.

This is not a knock on Mason, it is a defense of Finley.