The Spurs Stability have caused the Suns & Mavs Instability and Inconsistency!

[MarHill]

As everyone knows this week, the Suns traded Boris Diaw & Raja Bell to the Bobcats for Jason Richardson and Jared Dudley.

Also, last year the Suns traded Shawn Marion for Shaq and the Mavs traded Devin Harris for Jason Kidd (I know there were other players were including in the deal...but those were the main principles of that trade).

So I decided to look at two stats in the last 5 years for each team to prove my point that stability and consistency has worked over instability and inconsistency.

I know you can make stats to look anyway you want in an arguement/debate...but I though these two were the most revealing.


Since 2003:

1) The Spurs have averaged 58 wins (that includes a 63 win season in 2005-2006).

2) The Mavs have averaged 57 wins (that includes a 60 win season in 2005-2006 and a 67 win season in 2006-2007).

3) The Suns have averaged 52 wins (that includes a 62 win season in 2004-2005 and a 61 win season in 2006-2007).
{Also, they did have a 29 win season in 2003-2004....that brought their average win total much lower than the Spurs and Mavs}

The other stat:

1) The Spurs have scored 95.4 points per game and only given up 88.4 points per game since 2003. Their point differential is +7 points per game.

2) The Mavs have scored 101.4 points per game and only given up 95.8 points per game since 2003. Their pont differential is +5.5 points per game.

3) The Suns have scored 106.6 points per game and only given up 102.3 points per game since 2003. Their point differential is +4.2 points per game.


I must admit when I looked at these numbers I thought the Mavs and Suns would have a bigger point differential becuase they were offensive-oriented than the Spurs. I was surprised.

What those stats tells me is that defense brings a lot of wins (including 3 championships since 2003) and the Spurs are more offensive-minded than I thought.

Lastly, the Spurs' success have caused the Mavs and Suns to drastically change their teams. Both the Mavs and Suns have made coaching changes and got rid of key players: Mavs-Harris, Nash, Finley Suns-Marion, Diaw, and Bell (I know that Joe Johnson signed with the Hawks as a FA.) and the Spurs have decided to keep their core (Tim, Tony, and Manu) and build their team around them.

I know that professional sports is the ultimate bottom line and a "what have you done for me lately" business! But, it shows if you have great talent and a good system and you stick with it....you can win a lot of games and compete for a championship each year that all I can ask for as fan of that team.


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:lobt::lobt::lobt::lobt::lobt:

[raspsa]

Its an open secret that both the Suns and Mavs have built their teams to try and get past the Spurs come playoff time. There's probably no greater compliment you can pay the Spurs.

[SequSpur]

Tim Duncan.

[SenorSpur]

Its an open secret that both the Suns and Mavs have built their teams to try and get past the Spurs come playoff time. There's probably no greater compliment you can pay the Spurs.

...all that and it still hasn't worked.

[thispego]

So I decided to look at two stats in the last 5 years for each team to prove my point that stability and consistency has worked over instability and inconsistency. groundbreaking research

[JMarkJohns]

I still maintain that the Spurs are lucky the Suns had a cheap-ass owner who sold off picks and ran off talent to save money and a stupid-ass coach who couldn't play more than seven players in a game if his life depended on it.

I think if either of these two situations is resolved, Suns find a way to win.

But then, that's also a testiment to the consistency and stability this thread is about, so tip of the cap...

[dirk4mvp]

...all that and it still hasn't worked.


Actually, it has. And if the Suns weren't boneheads, they probably win that series too.


Yeah I know, 4 rings and all that.

[m33p0]

had the mavs kept the finley-nash-dirk trio instead of immediately dismantling them, they could have won a title. same goes for that suns team of 06. but, no. their owners/coaching staffs wanted immediate results and got nowhere in return.

[dirk4mvp]

had the mavs kept the finley-nash-dirk trio instead of immediately dismantling them, they could have won a title. same goes for that suns team of 06. but, no. their owners/coaching staffs wanted immediate results and got nowhere in return.

Nope. Nash proved time and time again a team with him wasn't winning a title. If it wasn't Parker killing him, it was Bibby. And with the way they abused him, just imagine what Wade and B. Diddy, two guards who are much better than Parker and Bibby, would've done to Nash.

[michaelwcho]

It's not specifically the defense, but the point differential that's important.

[T Park]

Parker is right there with Baron Davis. Dwayne Wade is a shooting guard.

[z0sa]

Parker is right there with Baron Davis. Dwayne Wade is a shooting guard.

it's not good to respond to someone who states the suns would've won any series against us. Time has clearly defined who the better team is 4 times since 2003, 3 of them on the way to a title.

[Tully365]

It just supports what Bill Russell, John Wooden, Pop, and a whole bunch of other proven winners have said all along: defense wins championships. The Spurs are built around an incredibly intelligent defensive-minded guy in Tim Duncan, who along with guys like DRob, Bowen, Horry, Ginobili, and now newcomers Hill and Mason, understand the primary importance of defense.

The Suns were built around Nash and Amare, both defensive liabilities, and the Mavs are built around Dirk, a big man who prefers to play like a perimeter guy.

[spursfan09]

it's not good to respond to someone who states the suns would've won any series against us. Time has clearly defined who the better team is 4 times since 2003, 3 of them on the way to a title.

The Spurs have owned that Franchise. There is no debate about it. 4 Times met in the playoffs, 4 chances to knock us out. Spurs have just been a little bit better everytime.

[JMarkJohns]

The Spurs have owned that Franchise. There is no debate about it. 4 Times met in the playoffs, 4 chances to knock us out. Spurs have just been a little bit better everytime.

Don't forget fortunate...

2003: series tied, 2-2, Marbury dislocates shoulder on Rose screen and is never the same. Suns drop the next two games.

2005: JJ breaks his face in the series before, shattering an orbital bone surrounding his eye, misses the first half of the series, then uncerimoniously returns and does little. The Suns were literally seven men deep that year so without JJ, the Suns were running a six-man rotation.

2007: Series tied, 2-2, Amare and Diaw are suspended because they can't control their reactions and the Suns assistant coaches can't do their job. Without two of their three best frontcourt players, the Suns lose the homefield advantage in game five, then fall in game six in San Antonio.

It's not excuses. Chances are the Suns would have won the first two series regardless, but context cannot be forgotten. In that third series, who knows. Those teams were damn near even on the court. Phoenix finally had the moxy to stand up to San Antonio, which was what they lacked in prevous attempts. Still, with D'Antoni as coach, I'm sure something could have happened to eliminate Phoenix even if those suspensions had not been assessed.

San Antonio is great. They are a model franchise that drafts well, signs well, plays well... they don't get rattled easily and they are well coached and play within the team's strengths.

Still, you can't just write off their fortune in the three series mentioned above.

[mrspurs]

That all changed last season. When Gasol went to the Lakers. The Lakers were the team, other teams started building to beat. The lakers have future youth on all positions of the court. What was once us is now the..................Lakers.

[spursfan09]

Don't forget fortunate...

2003: series tied, 2-2, Marbury dislocates shoulder on Rose screen and is never the same. Suns drop the next two games.

2005: JJ breaks his face in the series before, shattering an orbital bone surrounding his eye, misses the first half of the series, then uncerimoniously returns and does little. The Suns were literally seven men deep that year so without JJ, the Suns were running a six-man rotation.

2007: Series tied, 2-2, Amare and Diaw are suspended because they can't control their reactions and the Suns assistant coaches can't do their job. Without two of their three best frontcourt players, the Suns lose the homefield advantage in game five, then fall in game six in San Antonio.

It's not excuses. Chances are the Suns would have won the first two series regardless, but context cannot be forgotten. In that third series, who knows. Those teams were damn near even on the court. Phoenix finally had the moxy to stand up to San Antonio, which was what they lacked in prevous attempts. Still, with D'Antoni as coach, I'm sure something could have happened to eliminate Phoenix even if those suspensions had not been assessed.

San Antonio is great. They are a model franchise that drafts well, signs well, plays well... they don't get rattled easily and they are well coached and play within the team's strengths.

Still, you can't just write off their fortune in the three series mentioned above.

Chances are the Spurs or the Suns would have won the first two series? I think you mean Spurs? Anyways I can see your point that shit happens sometimes that go the negatively for you. Believe me as a Spur fan I see what you saying. Like against the Lakers if Fisher doesn't hit that shot in 04. or If Manu is not hurt last year and what not. But doesn't mean the Lakers don't own the Spurs.

[JMarkJohns]

Yeah, I meant Spurs win first two series regardless...

[exstatic]

The Suns biggest goof was keeping Marion and shipping out JJ after the 2005 series. If they'd have done the opposite, they could have afforded some of those draft picks with the difference between Marion's salary and even a MAX deal for JJ, and have a nucleus of two twenty-somethings (Amare, JJ) and one thirty-something (Nash), and they probably wouldn't be tearing down the team now.

[JMarkJohns]

The Suns biggest goof was keeping Marion and shipping out JJ after the 2005 series. If they'd have done the opposite, they could have afforded some of those draft picks with the difference between Marion's salary and even a MAX deal for JJ, and have a nucleus of two twenty-somethings (Amare, JJ) and one thirty-something (Nash), and they probably wouldn't be tearing down the team now.

Agreed.

[dirk4mvp]

Parker is right there with Baron Davis. Dwayne Wade is a shooting guard.

No, he's not.

So what, if Wade's a 2. The Mavs threw every guard they had at him. Nash would've got his turn, and abused.

[PURO SAN ANTO 210!]

To Bad For Them Sorry Ass Sun's N Mav's!!!!!!!

Go Spurs Go!!!!!!

[justanotherspursfan]

2007: Series tied, 2-2, Amare and Diaw are suspended because they can't control their reactions and the Suns assistant coaches can't do their job. Without two of their three best frontcourt players, the Suns lose the homefield advantage in game five, then fall in game six in San Antonio.
While many of your points are well-taken, I interpret this to mean that the Spurs are lucky because they're better coached and seek out players who are more coachable.

Yeah, it was unfortunate for the Suns that the incident happened at that exact time, but (1) the Spurs are better coached and less likely to do something stupid like that (2) the Spurs try harder to seek out players who aren't going to do something stupid, and (3) if someone on the Spurs had done something like that, you can bet your ass that Popovich would never in a million years have tolerated his team playing the victim, and would have told everyone to get their shit together and win the series no matter who was out and for what reason.

Like I said, it's unfortunate that it happened right then, but the Suns put themselves at greater risk for something happening, and it just happened to come home to roost at the worst possible time.

[m33p0]

2007: Series tied, 2-2, Amare and Diaw are suspended because they can't control their reactions and the Suns assistant coaches can't do their job. Without two of their three best frontcourt players, the Suns lose the homefield advantage in game five, then fall in game six in San Antonio.

Tim Duncan stole HCA when he had a monster Game 1 in Phoenix.

[wijayas]

I still maintain that the Spurs are lucky the Suns had a cheap-ass owner who sold off picks and ran off talent to save money and a stupid-ass coach who couldn't play more than seven players in a game if his life depended on it.

I think if either of these two situations is resolved, Suns find a way to win.

But then, that's also a testiment to the consistency and stability this thread is about, so tip of the cap...

By signing Shaq, Suns' owner may not be a cheap-ass.

Your sig is great. Your additional sig shaylaren is even better!:king

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I still maintain that the Spurs are lucky the Suns had a cheap-ass owner who sold off picks and ran off talent to save money and a stupid-ass coach who couldn't play more than seven players in a game if his life depended on it.

I think if either of these two situations is resolved, Suns find a way to win.

But then, that's also a testiment to the consistency and stability this thread is about, so tip of the cap...

The 7 player rotation was not the reason they lost, Amare Stoodamire being an idiot was the reason they lost.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Nope. Nash proved time and time again a team with him wasn't winning a title. If it wasn't Parker killing him, it was Bibby. And with the way they abused him, just imagine what Wade and B. Diddy, two guards who are much better than Parker and Bibby, would've done to Nash.

What the fuck is B Diddy?

[mystargtr34]

No, he's not.

So what, if Wade's a 2. The Mavs threw every guard they had at him. Nash would've got his turn, and abused.

Parker > Davis

Thats been the case since about 2005.

One guy shoots 40% for 20 PPG and plays about 60 games a year

The other guy shoots 50%+ for 20 PPG and is a Finals MVP

[mystargtr34]

Wade > Parker obviously.

[JMarkJohns]

Tim Duncan stole HCA when he had a monster Game 1 in Phoenix.

And Phoenix stole it back with the game four win in San Antonio. Series tied at 2-2, Phoenix hosts two of three if series goes that far. It didn't.

[dirk4mvp]

What the fuck is B Diddy?

What Spurfan called Baron Davis during the Mavs/Warriors series a few years back.

[m33p0]

And Phoenix stole it back with the game four win in San Antonio. Series tied at 2-2, Phoenix hosts two of three if series goes that far. It didn't.
good point.

[jag]

No, he's not.



If Tony had been on terrible teams his entire career and led those terrible teams in shots per game(year in and year out)...he'd have the numbers "B Diddy" has.

If you polled GM's on who they would rather have on there team, do you honestly think the majority would pick Davis? No

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I wouldn't say the Spurs forced the Devin Harris trade, they definitely forced the Shaq trade after they beat the Suns w/o Parker. I think Golden State forced the Kidd trade, which was dumb because Dallas got better against Golden State but got worse against every other Western team with that trade. I was happy when they made the trade because it meant Harris would only drop 35-40 points on the Suns twice a year rather than four times a year.

Think about it, the Spurs were anything but the reason they traded Harris for Kidd. Harris destroyed SA in that 2006 series and is the only PG in basketball who can make things extremely difficult for Parker on offense and defense. Before that trade Dallas was the only team that consistently beat the Spurs.

I know most people think the Shaq trade sucked, but Phoenix would have lost to SA in the playoffs with Marion or with Shaq. They weren't contenders before the trade and are closer to being contenders now then they were all of last year. Marion's help defense was good, but if you have someone on the court to only play "help defense", your defense has issues regardless.

[NFGIII]

Its an open secret that both the Suns and Mavs have built their teams to try and get past the Spurs come playoff time. There's probably no greater compliment you can pay the Spurs.

And the Spurs did exactly the same thing back in 96/97 to get past the Jazz. Let's face it at the time the Spurs were the Jazz's bitch pure and simple. Stockton and Malone owned us. Pop got rid of Hill and then went about restucturing the team to look like the Jazz - half court P/R and S/R and the emphasis on playing D first.

Of course it didn't hurt to draft TD in '97 either. :smokin

[MarHill]

I wouldn't say the Spurs forced the Devin Harris trade, they definitely forced the Shaq trade after they beat the Suns w/o Parker. I think Golden State forced the Kidd trade, which was dumb because Dallas got better against Golden State but got worse against every other Western team with that trade. I was happy when they made the trade because it meant Harris would only drop 35-40 points on the Suns twice a year rather than four times a year.

Think about it, the Spurs were anything but the reason they traded Harris for Kidd. Harris destroyed SA in that 2006 series and is the only PG in basketball who can make things extremely difficult for Parker on offense and defense. Before that trade Dallas was the only team that consistently beat the Spurs.

I know most people think the Shaq trade sucked, but Phoenix would have lost to SA in the playoffs with Marion or with Shaq. They weren't contenders before the trade and are closer to being contenders now then they were all of last year. Marion's help defense was good, but if you have someone on the court to only play "help defense", your defense has issues regardless.

You are actually making my point.

The Mavs were the one team that could beat the Spurs somewhat consistently and they traded Harris and it changed the look at the team.

The Spurs may not have caused that trade....but the fact they made that trade....the Spurs' success had an indirect effect because of it.

The Mavs let the failure on not a winning championship in '06 to make them have a drastic change instead of sticking with program and strengthening their team.


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