What's a stat that should show up in box scores?

[Blake]

I think they should keep track of charges taken per game, myself.

Seems to me that forcing a change of possession and a foul on the opposite team's player is bigger than grabbing some cheesy rebound off a missed free throw.

I know it would be difficult, but I'd also like to see a stat of "minutes with basketball in hand"

[sonic21]

screens

[FromWayDowntown]

I'd be interested in quantification of things that are difficult to quantify. For years, Bruce Bowen would have benefitted, for instance, from a tough shots forced sort of category or even a shooting percentage against in 1-on-1 situations. I'm not sure, though, that the game would allow those kinds of measurements in any statistically meaningful way.

[clambake]

there should be some kind of meter that measures the suckage of the mavs in the 4th q.

[xellos88330]

I think they should make assists count for 2 passes. Kind of like in hockey.

[FromWayDowntown]

A simpler stat that would be interesting would be a generalized breakdown of turnovers -- steals against, bad passes, offensive fouls, and miscellaneous.

[lurker23]

Charges taken would be nice.

I like the recent addition of plus/minus to basketball box scores; it is a stat that has been around for a long time in hockey, and can show important trends in the long run.

Along those lines, I'd like to steal another trend from hockey: the ability to award two assists on each basket, if applicable. Often the pass before the assist is just as important, if not more important, than the assist itself. Specifically, I think Tim Duncan's assists would increase greatly with this new change; he is amazing at passing out of double-teams, and very often the next pass leads to an open three-pointer.

(xellos88330 beat me to this idea.)

[naico]

Good question. maybe something like: forced TO's (other then steals)

[tonylongoriafan]

bad calls by refs...think about it, we justify all of the stats for the players and nothing for the refs...missed travels: 4, clean blockshots called fouls: 3, over reaction to getting shown up by a player: 1

[timvp]

I was actually thinking about this topic recently :tu

I'd like a "fouls drawn" category. They have that in Europe but not in the NBA for some reason. I'd also like a "potential assist" stat. That stat would help better gauge whether a point guard simply isn't creating good enough or if his teammates were just missing shots. Deflections might be an interesting stat, especially since a lot of teams track it internally. Some sort of hockey assist might be cool.

Your idea of keeping track of charges is a good one. That's another stat that is tracked internally ... and also you can find it sometimes at 82games.com.


The good news is that the NBA is slowly adding more stat categories. Recently they added +/- and blocks against. There's still a whole lot of room for growth.




P.S.

I'd also think it'd be a good idea for stats to be tracked by a third party and not someone associated with the specific home team. That way players like Chris Paul (and John Stockton back in the day) don't get their stats inflated by a homer statistician. With every game on TV nowadays, it'd be pretty easy to have remote statisticians for each game.

[naico]

I'd also think it'd be a good idea for stats to be tracked by a third party and not someone associated with the specific home team. That way players like Chris Paul (and John Stockton back in the day) don't get their stats inflated by a homer statistician. With every game on TV nowadays, it'd be pretty easy to have remote statisticians for each game.

+1:toast

[Blake]

I like the recent addition of plus/minus to basketball box scores; it is a stat that has been around for a long time in hockey, and can show important trends in the long run.


I get that, but I actually think seeing the +/- in a box score is a waste of time. Like you said it's good for the long run to see a trend, but that's really only for coaches and diehards to ponder over.

If a guy scores 15 points and grabs 10 boards but is at or near the minus, that makes no sense to me.

[Blake]

I I'd also think it'd be a good idea for stats to be tracked by a third party and not someone associated with the specific home team. That way players like Chris Paul (and John Stockton back in the day) don't get their stats inflated by a homer statistician. With every game on TV nowadays, it'd be pretty easy to have remote statisticians for each game.

no doubt.......

it seems to me that I recall there was some controversy with Hakeem's quadruple double because of something like this......

[duncan228]

I'd like a "fouls drawn" category.

Me too.

[fyatuk]

The only thing I've ever had an interest in is "points assisted" instead of "baskets assisted."

[lurker23]

I get that, but I actually think seeing the +/- in a box score is a waste of time. Like you said it's good for the long run to see a trend, but that's really only for coaches and diehards to ponder over.

If a guy scores 15 points and grabs 10 boards but is at or near the minus, that makes no sense to me.

Well, on a game-by-game basis I think the stat is a "needs more investigation" sort of thing. Even if you score 15 points, you're not helping your team too much if you give up 20 points on the other end. So, while an anomalous +/- isn't necessarily something to condemn or praise a player about, it's something to look into. Did the player play poor man-to-man defense, or horrible help defense? Did the player fail to get back in transition to help stop fast-break points? Or was the player simply un/fortunate enough to simply be on the floor with another player who was particularly hot or cold?

[smeagol]

When a player intentionally tips a rebound (ususually offensive) into a the hands of a player from his same team, which obviously gives that team another offensive look, is that considered a OR?

(sort of what Oberto does a lot)

[sabar]

I was was actually thinking about this myself recently along with how much work it would be to track the stats on my own. I think it would be nice to be able to better quantify defense, but that isn't as simple as it seems. If you could quantify things like missed rotations, contested shots, etc, you could get a good idea of how well a player defends. Only problem then? The amount of grey area on what constitutes a contested shot and so forth.

Plus a lot of re-watching game tape.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

A big :tu to the idea of fouls drawn, both offensive and defensive and a similar breakdown for fouls committed. It's always struck me as something so simple to track and can be a big indicator of a player's aggressiveness and BB IQ.

[stéphane]

I'd like to know how many screens the player can set, small thing but interesting.

[Blake]

Well, on a game-by-game basis I think the stat is a "needs more investigation" sort of thing. Even if you score 15 points, you're not helping your team too much if you give up 20 points on the other end. So, while an anomalous +/- isn't necessarily something to condemn or praise a player about, it's something to look into. Did the player play poor man-to-man defense, or horrible help defense? Did the player fail to get back in transition to help stop fast-break points? Or was the player simply un/fortunate enough to simply be on the floor with another player who was particularly hot or cold?

that's the thing. Take the Spurs for instance where it used to be that a guy like Bruce would funnel the driving player down into the towers on Defense.

If the player scores, even though it was 'his man' why should that be a negative on Bruce if he did his job?

[Blake]

I was was actually thinking about this myself recently along with how much work it would be to track the stats on my own. I think it would be nice to be able to better quantify defense, but that isn't as simple as it seems. If you could quantify things like missed rotations, contested shots, etc, you could get a good idea of how well a player defends. Only problem then? The amount of grey area on what constitutes a contested shot and so forth.

Plus a lot of re-watching game tape.

like Timvp mentioned, 82games.com is a great place to look up all sorts of obscure stats that you want.

I'm just wanting a few things for the box score so that I don't have to dig for them over there.

[TDMVPDPOY]

put a fkn gps on there jerseys and lets see who does alot of mileage on court....

[Behrooz24]

Out of curiosity, I want to see how many times a player hits the floor. Doesn't it seem like TP falls to the ground on every damn layup?!

[lurker23]

put a fkn gps on there jerseys and lets see who does alot of mileage on court....

That would be fun. Manu would be one of the league leaders, although high-minute big men would have the advantage, since they have to run from baseline-to-baseline more than guards. Spurs guards in general would have high mileage, as they do a lot of dump-and-cut with Duncan.

[timvp]

When a player intentionally tips a rebound (ususually offensive) into a the hands of a player from his same team, which obviously gives that team another offensive look, is that considered a OR?

(sort of what Oberto does a lot)Yes it's considered an offensive rebound. About 95% of the time the player who tipped the ball gets credit for the rebound. The rule stats that it must be a "controlled tip" to receive credit but statisticians almost always count it -- especially if it's a big tipping it to a small.

[smeagol]

Yes it's considered an offensive rebound. About 95% of the time the player who tipped the ball gets credit for the rebound. The rule stats that it must be a "controlled tip" to receive credit but statisticians almost always count it -- especially if it's a big tipping it to a small.

Thks :tu

[timvp]

The only thing I've ever had an interest in is "points assisted" instead of "baskets assisted."Good one :tu

I remember Parker led the league one year in three-pointers assisted. Points assisted would probably put Parker pretty high in the rankings -- especially considering a lot of his assists consist of him driving into the lane and then finding a three-point shooter.

[tp2021]

Good one :tu

I remember Parker led the league one year in three-pointers assisted. Points assisted would probably put Parker pretty high in the rankings -- especially considering a lot of his assists consist of him driving into the lane and then finding a three-point shooter.

If a guard passes the ball to a cutter who then blows a layup, but gets fouled, does it count as an assist for the guard if the cutter makes FTs? Probably not, but just curious...

[Fabbs]

I also think it'd be a good idea for stats to be tracked by a third party and not someone associated with the specific home team. That way players like Chris Paul (and John Stockton back in the day) don't get their stats inflated by a homer statistician. With every game on TV nowadays, it'd be pretty easy to have remote statisticians for each game.
double amen. The *assists* that Magic used to be gifted were bogus. He'd toss it into Kareem, Kream would hold the ball for 4 seconds, take three dribbles and three steps and skyhook and Tragic would get the assist. The Finals where Michael Jordan smoked him (91?), Jordan led Magic in assists up until the final game, whereupon Magic was gifted 20 or so to barely overtake MJ for the series.

blown assists, whereupon sweet pass is made and layup is blown, i like that idea.
Adjusted fg%
ball in possession of player, like that one too. We could then figure out who takes the longest to score and who is quickest. Fabs Oberto would probably lead in that catagory since his scoring consists of getting the pass from Tim or Manu and laying it in.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

shooting percentage against

Would be good.

So would turnovers forced/drawn.

They could add calls bitched about, then you'd have Kobe, Tim, LeBron, Nash, Wade, Dirk, TMac, etc. putting up double figures categories in another category. Tim could average a double double in points, boards, and CBAPG. :lol

[I Love Me Some Me]

Not a new stat, but I've always thought PGs get robbed when they throw a nice pass, no basket but the player gets fouled and winds up on the FT line.

Should get a full assist if both FTs are made, and 1/2 if one is made

[admiralfats]

i always wondered how many shots duncan changed throughout the course of a game. I feel like he changes a lot of shots dramatically but blocks them only now and then. It's a big subjective, but i've always thought of the "hurried" category in football compared to "sacked" would be a decent analogy to this. so a changed shot would be like when they say how many times a quarterback has been hurried in football, and the block would be equivalent to the sack because everyone knows when that happens.

[z0sa]

Not a new stat, but I've always thought PGs get robbed when they throw a nice pass, no basket but the player gets fouled and winds up on the FT line.

Should get a full assist if both FTs are made, and 1/2 if one is made

This has been something I never understood for years.

Another is charges/charges taken.

[kace]

I'd also like a "potential assist" stat. That stat would help better gauge whether a point guard simply isn't creating good enough or if his teammates were just missing shots.

i'm not sure about this one. it could be a good idea but the problem is that in NBA, fans and journalists always want to measure exactly the contribution of a player. I think it's too much. we're not in a swimming contest where a simple stopwatch could say who is the best. sometimes stats are really interesting but way more used in US IMHO.

here you'd want to have "potential assist" to prevent a player for being "robbed" for an assist because of his teamate missing his shot. but in bball, you rely on your teamate.
Should we have a stat for "difficult shot" because your teamates suck and you're always doubled. or because you're the one taking the difficult shot at the end of the clock. should we have "great assist" when your teamate just has to put it in the hole without no one guarding him and "simple assist" because your pass was made an assist thanks to a circus shot by your teamate.


I'd also think it'd be a good idea for stats to be tracked by a third party and not someone associated with the specific home team. That way players like Chris Paul (and John Stockton back in the day) don't get their stats inflated by a homer statistician. With every game on TV nowadays, it'd be pretty easy to have remote statisticians for each game.

+ 1


If a guard passes the ball to a cutter who then blows a layup, but gets fouled, does it count as an assist for the guard if the cutter makes FTs? Probably not, but just curious...

i asked this in a previous thread and obviously not in NBA. i think it's yes in europe because i saw it. maybe fiba rules.

[mathbzh]

They could add the number of possession for each player.

[kace]

They could add the number of possession for each player.

Hollinger PER has something like this (it's called Usq i think).

[Manufan909]

Not a new stat, but I've always thought PGs get robbed when they throw a nice pass, no basket but the player gets fouled and winds up on the FT line.

Should get a full assist if both FTs are made, and 1/2 if one is made

Slightly off topic, but considering a scenario wher Manu has 10 And1 layups in a game(only shots he takes for the whole game), would his FGM-FGA be 0-0? I'm not sure, but I don't think they're counted(unless maybe only and 1s are counted). And if TP assisted said layups would he get the assists counted for him? I would think so, but I'm not positive.

[I Love Me Some Me]

Slightly off topic, but considering a scenario wher Manu has 10 And1 layups in a game(only shots he takes for the whole game), would his FGM-FGA be 0-0? I'm not sure, but I don't think they're counted(unless maybe only and 1s are counted). And if TP assisted said layups would he get the assists counted for him? I would think so, but I'm not positive.

If I understand the scenario correctly, Manu would be 10-10 from the field for the layups he made, and if Parker assisted on all of them he would have those 10 assists.

[peskypesky]

I vote for the charges. If you're going to count steals, which result in a change of possession, then why not charges? Seems pretty obvious to me now.

[Yuixafun]

Blow by's - whenever and offensive player shakes someone up, breaking their ankles and leaving them in the dust, also splitting double teams, and beating traps through dribbling.

Charges Avoided - whenever a player avoids a defender trying to take a charge.

Multiple screen open looks - whenever a player get an open look utilizing more than 1 screen. Would be interesting to find out which players have this offensive savvy. Some people are reputedly good at it like, Rip Hamilton and Reggie Miller.

Backdoor Buckets.

[Darthkiller]

player iq

[I Love Me Some Me]

Amount of time spent putting your warmup pants back on instead of sitting on the bench.


Micheal Finley would lead the league.

[fyatuk]

Not a new stat, but I've always thought PGs get robbed when they throw a nice pass, no basket but the player gets fouled and winds up on the FT line.

Should get a full assist if both FTs are made, and 1/2 if one is made

Part of the reason I'd rather see a pts assisted. FTs would count for that.

[Allanon]

I'd like to see deflections added. Lot's of plays are stopped due to deflections. Deflections are neither a steal or a turnover but they can stop a score.

Let's say there's a big man wide open in the paint and the point guard sees him and zings a pass in. At the last second, somebody sees it and tips the ball out of bounds. Nobody gets credit for that play even though it stopped an easy score.

Deflections would reward active defensive players.

[Galileo]

"and one" free throw attempts.

[dastrey]

RIT: Rebounds in Traffic. Why should a player be credited for a rebound that: has been tapped out to him, fallen in his lap after a bad shot, or off a missed free throw.

[024]

charges taken per game is kind of useless by itself. there are only a few charges a game and only by a few select players. i think they should count that though by clumping steals and charges taken with a forced turnovers category. that way, a FTO category can take into account all sorts of defensive plays. i also agree with the points assisted. free throws made getting a foul should be counted in the points assisted.

[ClingingMars]

there should be some kind of meter that measures the suckage of the mavs in the 4th q.

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

-Mars

[igruex]

No wonder most players from Europe of who played in Europe are so good at it.
Just think about it for a second,if the NBA could include it on the stats, players would have to work on it in order to get better and most important in order to look better in the boxscores.

Now that you mention it.. It might be possible that the NBA chooses not to put chages drawn as an official stat because it would encourage something they aren't sure it would benefit the game as they see it.
Even though it could be very interesting to have it put in numbers, I'm not sure I'd added it if I can.

PS: Open shots made/missed, gotten; would be interesting as a team. IMO It says a lot about any team's offensive end and a lot about the other team's defense as something like "Open shots allowed"

[Kobayagi]

I'd like to see fist pump and chest bump categories. At the end of the year the top performer in these two categories combined could win the douchebag award.

[Yorae]

Number of whining a player makes....and how many baskets were converted because of the whining....

[Yorae]

I'd like to see fist pump and chest bump categories. At the end of the year the top performer in these two categories combined could win the douchebag award.

You should also add the number of scream and trashtalk...:toast

[jaffies]

I'd like to see fist pump and chest bump categories. At the end of the year the top performer in these two categories combined could win the douchebag award.

http://www.nbaloud.com/images/kevin-garnett4.jpg

First Ballot Douchebag Hall of Famer

[superbigtime]

We've got enough fucking stats.

[ploto]

I wish they would divide up the fouls listed in the box score for each player into offensive, defensive, loose ball, etc. just so you know how the fouls are occurring.

As to the assists, it would be nice if they got credit for great passes that lead to fouls and FT's.

Deflections are a good stat, too. Horry always was good for a number of those.

I am not a big fan of the charges drawn or fouls drawn category because there is already too much flopping.

[ducks]

a stat that would be like an assist
except the other team fouls the player giving the player who passed the ball no assist but the guy he passed to gets 2 free throws

[DPG21920]

This touches on your topic a little:

with a loose ball in the early going, it occurred to me -- and not for the first time -- that for all the stats geeks out there a worthwile effort would be to come up up with a stat for who comes up with the most loose balls. They have this in lacrosse. It's called loose balls. I guess the problem might be one of definition, but that doesn't seem insurmountable. My own experience suggest that some guys are just better at taking possession of balls than others. Chris Paul is probably one of the best. My guess is it's a combination of intensity, quickness, strength, good hands and anticipation. We make a big deal when a guy blocks a shot or two a game, but what about the guy who tracks down the ball and actually comes up with it?

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-37-56/Tuesday-Bullets.html

[exstatic]

I get that, but I actually think seeing the +/- in a box score is a waste of time. Like you said it's good for the long run to see a trend, but that's really only for coaches and diehards to ponder over.

If a guy scores 15 points and grabs 10 boards but is at or near the minus, that makes no sense to me.

Not if his man drops 30. That's relevant data. Call it "The Boozer/Randolph Effect"

Like a couple of other posters, I'd like to see multiple assists on a basket, like hockey. That play last game where Tim flashed into the paint, got a perfect bullet pass from a guard, and quickly tapped a pass to Thomas for a 5 ft jumper is a perfect example. The guard got no credit for zipping a perfect perimeter pass to a moving target in Duncan, but the play was impossible without that entry pass.

[SuperManu!!!]

Put "amount of flops" made :lol

[erikuff]

A defense efficiency rating. Either a score or percentage out of a hundred.

[DROB4EVER]

I would like to see a shots altered stat....shot blocking is big but if you can change guys shots and make them more difficult that is almost as good.

[Blake]

Not if his man drops 30. That's relevant data. Call it "The Boozer/Randolph Effect"


I've got a question about that.....

Is it considered "your man" if he just made a shot over you, or is it your man based on position.

for example, say by some freak screen, Shaq suddenly has Tony guarding him. If he scores, does that negative count against Tony or does it count against whoever is playing center (Bonner or Tim?)

[Blake]

here's an example of how the +/- makes no sense

this is Nate Robinson's stat line from last nite's Knicks/Lakers game:

N. Robinson min:32:34 fg: 9-16 3pt:3-7 ft:12-12 +/-: +1 off:1 reb:2 ast:5 to:5 stl:1 bs:0 ba:0 pf3 pts33

he was the leading scorer in the entire game with a nice shooting percentage and his +/- is only +1?

[mathbzh]

I've got a question about that.....

Is it considered "your man" if he just made a shot over you, or is it your man based on position.

for example, say by some freak screen, Shaq suddenly has Tony guarding him. If he scores, does that negative count against Tony or does it count against whoever is playing center (Bonner or Tim?)

I would count it on both... something probably went wrong defending a pick n roll and it is not easy to know who is to blame.

[fyatuk]

here's an example of how the +/- makes no sense

this is Nate Robinson's stat line from last nite's Knicks/Lakers game:

N. Robinson min:32:34 fg: 9-16 3pt:3-7 ft:12-12 +/-: +1 off:1 reb:2 ast:5 to:5 stl:1 bs:0 ba:0 pf3 pts33

he was the leading scorer in the entire game with a nice shooting percentage and his +/- is only +1?

It's already been discussed that +/- is not a good guage over a small sample. Also what the people on the floor with you do affects it greatly. You're also not going to have a high number playing 30+ minutes in what turns out to be a 2 point game.

Of course, his +/- might have been higher (and the Knicks might have one) if he didn't have 5 turnovers. Not that I watched the game...

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Like most people I think it'd fair to give an assist to a guy passing to someone who gets fouled.That'd be similar to how they don't count it as a missed FG if the fouled player doesn't manage to score after the foul. Which leads me to my next proposal, albeit a bit off topic, but I think they shouldn't count those last second half-court prayers as missed FGAs because so many players just wait for the horn and then shoot. It's mind blogging how professional athletes care so much about one missed FGA in their stat sheet but there you go...

I wouldn't like to see the charges taken in the stat sheet for one reason and that's because it'd further increase the number of flops, I think refs are giving offensive fouls way too often these days, that sort of takes out a part of the game because players tend to try taking a charge so much more often than trying to make a good defensive play ( disclaimer : I know a charge taken is a good defensive play, but these get credited a bit too much nowadays IMO ).

[Blake]

It's already been discussed that +/- is not a good guage over a small sample. Also what the people on the floor with you do affects it greatly.

which is exactly why it makes no sense to have in the box score.


Of course, his +/- might have been higher (and the Knicks might have one) if he didn't have 5 turnovers. Not that I watched the game...

take a look at the box score:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=ArlXOfeZaCaSZmvUUFmaTniQvLYF?gid=200 8121613

Anyone who wants to, feel free to take a shot at explaining why Harrington was a (-14) and Walton is a (+5).

[Blake]

alright......I figured out the +/-........disregard the other idiot posts I made regarding it.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Any boxscore missing 'team rebounds' is worthless, IMO.

[sandman]

Fouls away from ball. Helps understand if a player is consistently fouling when his man doesn't have the ball.

Con: Doesn't work in Haq-A-Shaq conditions

Tattoos to Minutes Played. Helps understand the overall thuggery and sucker-punching while back-pedaling bitch levels of a team.

Con: The Denver Nuggets would dominate this stat in 1960's Celtics dynasty fashion

Bench Towel Waves. Helps understand the number of times that the bench warming white big man jumps off the bench to cheerlead.

[Phenomanul]

+/- stats need to be normalized on a per possession basis and the points from free-throws should be not be incorporated either...

[angelbelow]

theybshould count charges as steals imo.

[phxspurfan]

Jerseys sold

[DANILO DRASKOVIC]

euro box scores measure how many fouls you draw