Smoking ban extended to bars and pool halls in Corpus Christi

[BacktoBasics]

I'm an advocate for the smoking ban but when your primary business is centered around social drinking and smoking I think its gone too far. Bars and pool halls should be exempt. Possibly bowling alleys but I can see where a bowling alley is more geared twords family fun than a bar or pool hall.

Obviously non-smokers should be able to go out publically without their health threatened by smokers. I just think its counter productive to force it across the board. There have been a handful of restaurants that have gone under here in town because of this. Those restaurants had a strong bar presence and made a bulk of their money off the bar rather than the food. Basically they operated like a bar that offered food. There is a difference.

These advocates don't know when to stop. They've been given an inch and now they've come back for more. I guess its ok to destroy lives to save lives. They should work on banning the legal product not how its used. At some point its up to the consumer to chose how to handle their health. That point should be drawn at drinking and smoking oriented places such as pool halls and bars.



City council passes new smoking ban

Smoking will be banned at bars, pool halls and bowling alleys starting April 15

By Beth Wilson (Contact)
Originally published 11:22 a.m., December 16, 2008
Updated 05:47 p.m., December 16, 2008

CORPUS CHRISTI — The City Council approved extending the smoking ban to bars, pool halls and bowling alleys but added a later effective date of April 15.

Opponents of the ban extension vowed to put the issue to a public vote, picking up referendum rules immediately after the vote.

The issue was presented as a matter of protecting health or individual choice as people on both sides of the issue addressed the council before the vote.

Those in favor of extending the smoking ban used health statistics and personal stories about the negative impact of secondhand smoke.

Bar and pool hall owners, managers and employees addressed the crowd too.

Councilman Mike Hummell, who voted against the ordinance and motioned unsuccessfully to exclude bars from the ordinance last week, made a motion Tuesday to exempt pool halls but did not receive enough support.

Smoke Free Corpus Christi, a coalition of mostly health advocacy organizations, is seeking to extend the ban beyond restaurants and other public places, saying the right to breathe clean, smoke-free air supersedes smokers' rights to smoke. Another group, Citizens for Choice and Common Sense, opposes an expansion of the ban, saying business owners and patrons have a choice in whether to frequent smoking establishments.

The later effective date was added to give bar owners time to build patios and adjust their liquor license to allow drinking on those patios, where smoking will still be allowed under the expanded ban.

http://www.caller.com/news/2008/dec/16/smoking-ban-discussion-start-330-today/

If you ask me the solution to the problem is to ban smoking up till 8pm in pool halls, bars and bowling alleys on the weekends and 6pm during the week. This would keep allow them to operate under a more controled adult audience during peak business hours.

[Dr. Gonzo]

That's discrimination.

[BacktoBasics]

That's discrimination.Wanna elaborate or be more specific.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

There's been a smoking ban in place where I live for a couple of years now and it hasn't hurt businesses. Because the ban is pretty much statewide, people are either going to deal with the ban or just not go out. Personally I've enjoyed being able to go to a bar now and not have to inhale other people's smoke.

I guess for the business owners in Corpus, any potential negative impact from the ban may depend on how far the smokers would have to drive to take their business somewhere else.

[BacktoBasics]

For the most part the restaurants that went under lost their customers to the bars that could legally allow smoking while not serving food. Now that the bars and pool halls won't be allowed I'm willing to bet they lose business to the places that have large patios and outdoor venues. There are more than a few here in town.

I don't think its a matter of simply dealing with it. I have a fundamental problem with the banning of a legal substance when its use pertains to a small portion of the ones who are actually affected....such as bars and pool halls.

[florige]

There's been a smoking ban in place where I live for a couple of years now and it hasn't hurt businesses. Because the ban is pretty much statewide, people are either going to deal with the ban or just not go out. Personally I've enjoyed being able to go to a bar now and not have to inhale other people's smoke.

I guess for the business owners in Corpus, any potential negative impact from the ban may depend on how far the smokers would have to drive to take their business somewhere else.



Yeah same here in MD. People just go outside and smoke.

[balli]

I love smoking bans. I'd like to see a federal smoking ban.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Yeah same here in MD. People just go outside and smoke.

Even the outside areas, bar and restaurant patios, etc., are banned here. Basically any public access property. Only the private clubs, VFW's and whatnot, allow smoking. I'm not sure what the smokers do here...become an Elk or something.

[I. Hustle]

I wonder if it's like that in Seguin where Orion lives.

[BRHornet45]

good. we need more smoking bans. if you wanna smoke, do it in a designated area so that you can sit in your own filth with the rest of the smokers. keep that shit away from me

[Dr. Gonzo]

Wanna elaborate or be more specific.

Not at all. I've made my point.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

For the most part the restaurants that went under lost their customers to the bars that could legally allow smoking while not serving food. Now that the bars and pool halls won't be allowed I'm willing to bet they lose business to the places that have large patios and outdoor venues. There are more than a few here in town.

I don't think its a matter of simply dealing with it. I have a fundamental problem with the banning of a legal substance when its use pertains to a small portion of the ones who are actually affected....such as bars and pool halls.


Sounds like they're just one small step from making the ban universal...so soon everyone will be affected equally. I think that was partially the motivation behind the 100% ban here.

[BacktoBasics]

The point isn't that I oppose bans the point is that banning a legal drug from a place that centers around its social use is not only fucking stupid its counter productive. Why not ban liquor from the bar too. Pool cues because they are weapons.

Why not ban liquor from restaurants since its use directly contributes to death on a much larger scale than second hand smoke.

[BacktoBasics]

Sounds like they're just one small step from making the ban universal...so soon everyone will be affected equally. I think that was partially the motivation behind the 100% ban here.Seems as much. It would have been better to have done that in the first place.

[T Park]

I love smoking bans. I'd like to see a federal smoking ban.


Yeah more government involvement in our lives. That's what we need.....

[phyzik]

My friend who owns a pool hall is trying to find a way to convert it into a humidor that just happens to have pool tables. :)

[Anti.Hero]

I detest smoking, but this is bullshit.

[BRHornet45]

Yeah more government involvement in our lives. That's what we need.....

whenever people are doing something in public that harms everyone around them ... then yes we need government involvement in that.

[jack sommerset]

I don't see to many people smoke anymore. Outside a office building or driving in there cars.They have banned it just about everywhere. Which is nice. I don't want to be flying,watching a game,eatting dinner,shopping and have smoke in my face. Bars....come on. Thats ridiculous.

[balli]

The point isn't that I oppose bans the point is that banning a legal drug from a place that centers around its social use is not only fucking stupid its counter productive. Why not ban liquor from the bar too. Pool cues because they are weapons.

Because other peoples' liquor and pool cues don't make my hair, skin, jeans and $400.00 Patagonia jacket smell like absolute shit.

[BRHornet45]

Bars....come on. Thats ridiculous.

no its not. have a designated spot for them outside where they can smoke. just because a small percentage of people choose to smoke, the majority shouldn't be forced to be around it.

[BacktoBasics]

My friend who owns a pool hall is trying to find a way to convert it into a humidor that just happens to have pool tables. :)They will eat that guy alive. Just like they did here with a restaurant that coverted to full time bar after the first ban.

What does it take to be a private club? Couldn't you just charge membership for .25 and give a cheap members card the size of a credit card. Since private clubs are exempt.

[Anti.Hero]

http://img.timeinc.net/time/photoessays/2008/obama_youth/obama_youth_04.jpg

[jack sommerset]

whenever people are doing something in public that harms everyone around them ... then yes we need government involvement in that.

Son, I don't smoke. Please give me some sort of proof where someone without lung problems already was harmed by some jerkoff smoking in a public facility. Such as a bar.

[balli]

Please give me some sort of proof where someone without lung problems already was harmed by some jerkoff smoking in a public facility. Such as a bar.

Are you serious dude? I think there's some pretty conclusive science on the danger of second hand smoke.

[BacktoBasics]

Because other peoples' liquor and pool cues don't make my hair, skin, jeans and $400.00 Patagonia jacket smell like absolute shit.No but that liquor and pool cue would kill you just as easily. Don't want to smell like shit? Don't go the bar after hours. Think a lot of people don't want the ability to smoke at the bar...then try your luck and open up a smoke free bar and see how many customers you bring in.

[Anti.Hero]

Son, I don't smoke. Please give me some sort of proof where someone without lung problems already was harmed by some jerkoff smoking in a public facility. Such as a bar.


Are serious dude?

lulz, 1970s forum.

[ChumpDumper]

All the smokers bitched about the ban here in Austin when it started, then they just shut their cryholes and smoked outside. There seemed to be a transition period where some smokers tried to get all hard ass and only went to clubs outside the city limits that allowed smoking, but they pretty much all came back. I can't think of one club that had to shut down because of it.

[BacktoBasics]

no its not. have a designated spot for them outside where they can smoke. just because a small percentage of people choose to smoke, the majority shouldn't be forced to be around it.The simple fact is that its not a small percentage or the restaurants that operated as bars wouldn't have suffered. It would have been business as usual minus a couple hundred bucks a week.

[BRHornet45]

Son, I don't smoke. Please give me some sort of proof where someone without lung problems already was harmed by some jerkoff smoking in a public facility. Such as a bar.

LOL I will take it that you are joking.

[BacktoBasics]

When did being an adult not consist of choosing for yourself what you want to be exposed to?

If a business owner sees that more people would come to his place if he banned smoking at his establishment then wouldn't he. That in of itself is proof that this ban is about the majority not the small few?

Why are these advocates trying to dictate the choices of grown adults?

I understand the public areas. The mall, most restaurants and public shopping areas like Target, Walmart and grocery stores because minors may not have the choice of entering or not entering with their parents but bars and pool halls are either 21 or 18 and up after 6 or 7PM.

This is borderlining on infringing are rights of choice.

[balli]

Think a lot of people don't want the ability to smoke at the bar...then try your luck and open up a smoke free bar and see how many customers you bring in.

John: Do you want to go to the bar?
Mike: What!!?? No. Haven't you heard? They have banned smoking in bars.
John: So you don't want to go out because of that?
Mike: No I don't.
John: So, uh, what are you going to do?
Mike: I'm going to sit at home, watch re-runs of South Park on TV and suck down a pack and a half of Camel Filters.
John: Y'know, you're right. Fuck it. I'll stay home too. I mean we could go out and spend time with people in a social setting and have a lot of fun and I really wanted to do so, but fuck that, it's not worth it if I'll be forced to walk 20 ft outside to smoke. Now toss me a cig and the remote, let's watch some TV...



Not likely.

[BRHornet45]

The simple fact is that its not a small percentage or the restaurants that operated as bars wouldn't have suffered. It would have been business as usual minus a couple hundred bucks a week.

Regardless, the majority is always the NON SMOKING crowd. The last stat I saw was that 1 out of every 14 people in the U.S. smoked. If a person cannot go out to eat without smoking, then that person needs serious help. people who feel the need to smoke EVERYWHERE that they go are very weak minded individuals who have no self discipline. If its that's damn important for you to suck on your cigarette everywhere you go, then at least have respect for others and take that shit outside. Smoking in public is no different than if someone wanted to shit on themselves or constantly fart in the middle of a restaurant/bar LOL .... no one wants to be around something that stinks up the place. (oh and at least someone who shits on themselves just stinks up the joint and doesn't harm your health like smoking does) LMAO

[BacktoBasics]

John: Do you want to go to the bar?
Mike: What!!?? No. Haven't you heard? They have banned smoking in bars.
John: So you don't want to go out because of that?
Mike: No I don't.
John: So, uh, what are you going to do?
Mike: I'm going to sit at home, watch re-runs of South Park on TV and suck down a pack and a half of Camel Filters.
John: Y'know, you're right. Fuck it. I'll stay home too. I mean we could go out and spend time with people in a social setting and have a lot of fun and I really wanted to do so, but fuck that, it's not worth it if I'll be forced to walk 20 ft outside to smoke. Now toss me a cig and the remote, let's watch some TV...



Not likely.Obviously an across the board ban would leave no choice. However banning some and not others leaves many places suffering.

Your point still doesn't change the fact that it should be up to the adult to choose where he would like to go smoke free or not. So long as its an adult establishment that socially centers around smoking. A bar and pool hall do just that. We are talking about allow places to operate under free will so long as no one is forced to deal with second hand smoke.

You can't be more fucking fair than that.

[I Love Me Some Me]

This is borderlining on infringing are rights of choice.

Isn't the infringement both ways?

[T Park]

Obviously an across the board ban would leave no choice. However banning some and not others leaves many places suffering.

Your point still doesn't change the fact that it should be up to the adult to choose where he would like to go smoke free or not. So long as its an adult establishment that socially centers around smoking. A bar and pool hall do just that. We are talking about allow places to operate under free will so long as no one is forced to deal with second hand smoke.

You can't be more fucking fair than that.



Peoe like him are why our country is in the state it's in. Governing without thinking about an adult's decision nor the business it affects.

[samikeyp]

There's been a smoking ban in place where I live for a couple of years now and it hasn't hurt businesses. Because the ban is pretty much statewide, people are either going to deal with the ban or just not go out. Personally I've enjoyed being able to go to a bar now and not have to inhale other people's smoke.

I guess for the business owners in Corpus, any potential negative impact from the ban may depend on how far the smokers would have to drive to take their business somewhere else.

When the smoking ban took effect in SA, a lot of business owners predicted the same doom and gloom and there too, it didn't happen. In fact, one manager I know said they did more business.

[BacktoBasics]

Regardless, the majority is always the NON SMOKING crowd. The last stat I saw was that 1 out of every 14 people in the U.S. smoked. If a person cannot go out to eat without smoking, then that person needs serious help. people who feel the need to smoke EVERYWHERE that they go are very weak minded individuals who have no self discipline. If its that's damn important for you to suck on your cigarette everywhere you go, then at least have respect for others and take that shit outside. Smoking in public is no different than if someone wanted to shit on themselves or constantly fart in the middle of a restaurant/bar LOL .... no one wants to be around something that stinks up the place. (oh and at least someone who shits on themselves just stinks up the joint and doesn't harm your health like smoking does) LMAOI'M NOT TALKING ABOUT GOING OUT TO EAT YOU FUCKING MORON. I said I was an advocate for a smoking ban in most public places where people don't have a choice to avoid it. The majority of people in pool halls and bars smoke. I don't even think that can be debated. People go the bar to drink and smoke and socialize. We are talking about establishments that do not allow minors after say 7pm. Adult only establishments where the majority of your customers smoke. You can choose to not go. Going to a bar that allows smoking isn't a necessity like food and water. Its a choice and if the business owner feels that his establishment thrives while allowing smoking then so be it.

Why does he not have that right?

I understand the Mall owner not having the same rights as the bar owner. There is a big fundamental difference. All I'm asking is that they acknowledge the difference and stay the fuck out of the way and let the pools halls and bars handle their business whichever way they seem fit.

[balli]

Peoe like him are why our country is in the state it's in. Governing without thinking about an adult's decision nor the business it affects.

Well I'm sorry to have personally destroyed your country, asshole. And I'll tell you what- once the powers that be start respecting my adult decision to smoke weed in the confines of my own house, then maybe I'll be more inclined to respect the adult decisions of others in public places. (decisions which happen to include blowing second hand tobacco smoke all over my person).

[BacktoBasics]

Isn't the infringement both ways?It is at the Mall, grocery story, autoparts store....any place that might be considered a necessity driven establishment. Any place where a minor might not have the choice to choose to enter or not.

That wouldn't apply to an adult oriented business establishment.

Wanna ban porn from HEB fine makes sense. Wanna ban porn from a porn shop. Doesn't add up does it.

Because you can choose to not enter.

[BRHornet45]

Obviously an across the board ban would leave no choice. However banning some and not others leaves many places suffering.

Your point still doesn't change the fact that it should be up to the adult to choose where he would like to go smoke free or not. So long as its an adult establishment that socially centers around smoking. A bar and pool hall do just that. We are talking about allow places to operate under free will so long as no one is forced to deal with second hand smoke.

You can't be more fucking fair than that.

obviously your a smoker hence why you don't give two shits about harming other people with your filthy smoke. your saying that it should be up to the adult to decide where they go smoke in public .... how can you even justify that? it is proven that second hand smoke is very harmful, and in many cases more harmful than it is to the actual smoker. why should you be allowed to smoke wherever you want? under your plan, would it be okay if I walked around the river walk spraying gas cans all over the place??? I mean, since I am an adult, it should be my right.

[BRHornet45]

I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT GOING OUT TO EAT YOU FUCKING MORON. I said I was an advocate for a smoking ban in most public places where people don't have a choice to avoid it. The majority of people in pool halls and bars smoke. I don't even think that can be debated. People go the bar to drink and smoke and socialize. We are talking about establishments that do not allow minors after say 7pm. Adult only establishments where the majority of your customers smoke. You can choose to not go. Going to a bar that allows smoking isn't a necessity like food and water. Its a choice and if the business owner feels that his establishment thrives while allowing smoking then so be it.

Why does he not have that right?

I understand the Mall owner not having the same rights as the bar owner. There is a big fundamental difference. All I'm asking is that they acknowledge the difference and stay the fuck out of the way and let the pools halls and bars handle their business whichever way they seem fit.


son your a fucking clueless dickhead. please learn to read and comprehend before making your ignorant accusations. I CLEARLY said "RESTAURANT/BAR" ..... YOU SEE THE WORD BAR IN THERE????? fucking idiot. Also, I love how you just assume that "people go to the bar or pool hall to smoke". that sure is an easy way to justify your ignorant claim. sure people smoke in bars and pool halls, but it is FAR from the majority. nowhere near it. I own 2 bars and I would estimate that on average (on a packed night) about 20% smoke.

[Spurminator]

On the one hand, I agree with B2B because I feel like if I want to open a bar called "Smokey's Smoking Bar for Smokers" in downtown Dallas, I should be able to, and I should not have to cater to non-smokers if that's not my clientele. It surprises me that the anti-smoking sentiment is strong enough that these bans can be passed and supported, but it's apparently not strong enough for people to stay away from bars and pool halls where the smoking bothers you, causing enough demand for bar owners to voluntarily ban smoking to attract the non-smoking crowd.

On the other hand, I only smoke when I drink, and I should probably quit doing that, so maybe this will help. And to ChumpDumper's point, the net effect is pretty minimal. People will just smoke outside. But for argument's sake, I think it's still an unnecessary infringement of rights and further example that people need the government to protect them from shit they don't like and could voluntarily avoid if they really wanted to.

[I Love Me Some Me]

It is at the Mall, grocery story, autoparts store....any place that might be considered a necessity driven establishment. Any place where a minor might not have the choice to choose to enter or not.

That wouldn't apply to an adult oriented business establishment.

Wanna ban porn from HEB fine makes sense. Wanna ban porn from a porn shop. Doesn't add up does it.

Because you can choose to not enter.

What if I wanna smoke in a porn shop?:lol

[balli]

It's like this. (credit to Steve Martin)

I could go eat a bunch of spicy machaca burritos, go into a bar and fart up a nasty ass storm. That's my adult right and choice. If I so choose there are no laws against going into an establishment and subjecting everybody to my nasty stanky ass. But just because there are no laws against it, and it would be well within the parameters of my own decision making, it doesn't mean that I wouldn't be a fucking asshole if I did something like that.

And that's how I feel about smokers when they bitch about personal choice and rights. Just because you have the right to do something that you KNOW bothers and is bad for the health of others, doesn't mean you are not a complete fucking asshole if you actually do it.

[Spurminator]

And that's how I feel about smokers when they bitch about personal choice and rights. Just because you have the right to do something that you KNOW bothers and is bad for the health of others, doesn't mean you are not a complete fucking asshole if you actually do it.

That's not the same as passing laws against being an asshole.

And anyway, if I'm in a bar where there is smoking, I am assuming people in there will not mind if someone is smoking near them. Of course, I also don't go to bars where it's so crowded that I'm blowing smoke in the faces of strangers. If you do, as a non smoker, I question your choice of bars.

[BacktoBasics]

Stay on god damn point people.

This isn't about whether banning smoking is right or wrong. I don't care what your opinion is as a human being and especially a minor human being we have the right to do certain things without having smoke around us.

The majority of public smoking bans are totally founded and definately for the better good. Especially in places where people have no control.

We are talking about a ban in a place that operates as an adult oriented establishment where you have the choice to enter or not. We aren't talking about a necessity item establishment. We aren't talking about a goods and service establishment like the food industry. We are talking about an adult only social establishment that centers on drinking and smoking where the majority have indulged in both.

Its wrong to dictate what can and can't be done with a legal substance that doesn't affect sobriety in a purely adult establishment. Key words being adult and choice. Because the people who aren't able to choose aren't even allowed in.

We have the right to choose to use the legal substance or not. Be around it or not.

The key is choice. All those other places leave choice out of the equation because minors can't choose to be there or not. I don't want someone crusading for my choices. I'll make my own thank you. Wanna crusade for the people who can't choose? Good do it.

For those of you who want bars and pools halls that don't allow smoking then go fucking open one. Make sure your overhead is low and the place is small because you are in the minority.

[BacktoBasics]

obviously your a smoker hence why you don't give two shits about harming other people with your filthy smoke. your saying that it should be up to the adult to decide where they go smoke in public .... how can you even justify that? it is proven that second hand smoke is very harmful, and in many cases more harmful than it is to the actual smoker. why should you be allowed to smoke wherever you want? under your plan, would it be okay if I walked around the river walk spraying gas cans all over the place??? I mean, since I am an adult, it should be my right.You are as dumb as it gets. I'm a non-smoker and I'm PRO the smoking ban. I'm not an advocate for giving a person the choice to smoke in public. How fucking stupid are you? Seriously are even fucking reading what I'm typing?

We aren't talking about all of the public here. I'm defending the bars and the pool halls that are adult oriented places where you have a choice to socialize or not.

There is a massive difference.

[Dr. Gonzo]

I'm a smoker and I don't see a problem with this. I have no issues going outside to smoke. If anything, it helps me smoke less.

[BRHornet45]

Stay on god damn point people.

This isn't about whether banning smoking is right or wrong. I don't care what your opinion is as a human being and especially a minor human being we have the right to do certain things without having smoke around us.

The majority of public smoking bans are totally founded and definately for the better good. Especially in places where people have no control.

We are talking about a ban in a place that operates as an adult oriented establishment where you have the choice to enter or not. We aren't talking about a necessity item establishment. We aren't talking about a goods and service establishment like the food industry. We are talking about an adult only social establishment that centers on drinking and smoking where the majority have indulged in both.

Its wrong to dictate what can and can't be done with a legal substance that doesn't affect sobriety in a purely adult establishment. Key words being adult and choice. Because the people who aren't able to choose aren't even allowed in.

We have the right to choose to use the legal substance or not. Be around it or not.

The key is choice. All those other places leave choice out of the equation because minors can't choose to be there or not. I don't want someone crusading for my choices. I'll make my own thank you. Wanna crusade for the people who can't choose? Good do it.

For those of you who want bars and pools halls that don't allow smoking then go fucking open one. Make sure your overhead is low and the place is small because you are in the minority.

LOL gotta love your inconsiderate way of thinking.

You keep bringing up points that "it is a legal substance", "it doesn't affect sobriety", and "we as adults have the choice to go into a bar" , etc. ..... yet you fail to bring up anything about the FACT that second hand smoke is harmful. why are you leaving that part out? why should the majority of people, REGARDLESS if its in a bar or restaurant be exposed to the minority who want to smoke? who gives a shit if it is an adult establishment like a bar?? .... if you want to smoke, make a designated area for those people who want to smoke. you don't have to ban it in a bar, but make a designated area for it.

[BacktoBasics]

It's like this. (credit to Steve Martin)

I could go eat a bunch of spicy machaca burritos, go into a bar and fart up a nasty ass storm. That's my adult right and choice. If I so choose there are no laws against going into an establishment and subjecting everybody to my nasty stanky ass. But just because there are no laws against it, and it would be well within the parameters of my own decision making, it doesn't mean that I wouldn't be a fucking asshole if I did something like that.

And that's how I feel about smokers when they bitch about personal choice and rights. Just because you have the right to do something that you KNOW bothers and is bad for the health of others, doesn't mean you are not a complete fucking asshole if you actually do it.I'm sorry sir this bar is a fart friendly zone. The majority of my customers come here to fart and fart freely. We don't allow minors in my establishment because we feel its your ADULT right to choose if you want to smell my farts and the farts of others while socializing in my bar. Our farts won't affect our driving and won't affect the heath of others that are dining out at restaurants or shopping at the mall. Hell our farts can even be banned on the side walks you travel on but right here in this bar you can fart freely because you're over 21 years old and no one is forcing you be here. The goods and services that are offered here are too be enjoyed with the comfort of all our collective farts and none of these goods and services are necessary to your well being or livelihood and they're purely by adult choice just like the porno shops, tobacco shops and head shops. If enough of my customers choose to leave my bar for the non farting bar down the street I'll consider changing my policy but as of right now business is thriving.

[BRHornet45]

I'm a smoker and I don't see a problem with this. I have no issues going outside to smoke. If anything, it helps me smoke less.

thank you. you're in the small percentage of smokers who are considerate of other people. we need more like you lol

[ChumpDumper]

You are as dumb as it gets. I'm a non-smoker and I'm PRO the smoking ban. I'm not an advocate for giving a person the choice to smoke in public. How fucking stupid are you? Seriously are even fucking reading what I'm typing?

We aren't talking about all of the public here. I'm defending the bars and the pool halls that are adult oriented places where you have a choice to socialize or not.

There is a massive difference.Eh, they make their money selling alcohol and table time. That won't change.

[balli]

Its wrong to dictate what can and can't be done with a legal substance that doesn't affect sobriety in a purely adult establishment. Key words being adult and choice. Because the people who aren't able to choose aren't even allowed in.
The difference being that your choice to go and smoke in a bar, limits my choices as a non-smoker. Sure, I can choose to go sit in a smokey bar, or not. But whether that bar is smokey or not is dictated by your choice to either smoke or not. So your choice introduces an extra element and factor, that I as a non-smoker, have to consider when making my decision to either go out or not.

Conversely as a non-smoker, I add no extra element that you as a smoker have to consider when deciding whether or not to go out. So in effect, you're telling me that while I still have a choice, you should have a broader range of options and more choice than I do. And furthermore, that your decision to smoke should be allowed to impact and dictate the terms of my decision to enter an establishment. Why is that?

[BRHornet45]

You are as dumb as it gets. I'm a non-smoker and I'm PRO the smoking ban. I'm not an advocate for giving a person the choice to smoke in public. How fucking stupid are you? Seriously are even fucking reading what I'm typing?

We aren't talking about all of the public here. I'm defending the bars and the pool halls that are adult oriented places where you have a choice to socialize or not.

There is a massive difference.

again ... your stupidity continues to show. I have already talked about that topic. please learn how to read and comprehend.

[BRHornet45]

The difference being that your choice to go and smoke in a bar, limits my choices as a non-smoker. Sure, I can choose to go sit in a smokey bar, or not. But whether that bar is smokey or not is dictated by your choice to either smoke or not. So your choice introduces an extra element and factor, that I as a non-smoker, have to consider when making my decision to either go out or not.

Conversely as a non-smoker, I add no extra element that you as a smoker have to consider when deciding whether or not to go out. So in effect, you're telling me that you should have a broader range of options and more choice than I do. And furthermore, that your decision should be allowed to impact my decision. Why is that?

exactly. B2B has trouble understanding that.

[leemajors]

there was a big uproar when this happened in austin a few years back. nothing really came of it, the bars/pool halls just built decks and everyone smoked outside. no business was really lost.

[Spurminator]

The difference being that your choice to go and smoke in a bar, limits my choices as a non-smoker. Sure, I can choose to go sit in a smokey bar, or not. But whether that bar is smokey or not is dictated by your choice to either smoke or not. So your choice introduces an extra element and factor, that I as a non-smoker, have to consider when making my decision to either go out or not.

Conversely as a non-smoker, I add no extra element that you as a smoker have to consider when deciding whether or not to go out. So in effect, you're telling me that while I still have a choice, you should have a broader range of options and more choice than I do. And furthermore, that your decision to smoke should be allowed to impact my decision to enter a smokey establishment. Why is that?

What about the choice of the owner?

[BacktoBasics]

LOL gotta love your inconsiderate way of thinking. nearly all smokers have the same attitude.

You keep bringing up points that "it is a legal substance", "it doesn't affect sobriety", and "we as adults have the choice to go into a bar" , etc. ..... yet you fail to bring up anything about the FACT that second hand smoke is harmful. why are you leaving that part out? why should the majority of people, REGARDLESS if its in a bar or restaurant be exposed to the minority who want to smoke? who gives a shit if it is an adult establishment like a bar?? .... if you want to smoke, make a designated area for those people who want to smoke. you don't have to ban it in a bar, but make a designated area for it.
Because business doesn't do better when you do that. When the business down the street allows you enter their bar and not be quarentined off.

I know second hand smoke is harmful. I've never once said it wasn't. If you don't want second hand smoke then don't go in to the fucking bar. Go to the the non-smoking bar.

When enough people don't want smoke or second hand smoke then the business owners will decide to change policy.

Why as an adult are so incapable of choosing for yourself? Its not selfish if your peers have a choice to not enter.

The smokers aren't infringing on the rights of the non-smokers if the non-smoker chooses to socialize in a smoking bar.

This is like a Catholic being pissed off that he can't worship the way he wants to in a Hindu church. Hey Catholic go find your own Catholic church and worship your way there. Now if the Catholic chooses to enter and socialize while the others worship their god in their own way he has made a choice to do so under his own power and no one forced him to. That Hindu church wasn't spreading their propoganda at malls or grocery stores. They did it in their own little place where people who want to be subject to it are.

[BacktoBasics]

Eh, they make their money selling alcohol and table time. That won't change.
Lots of pool halls charge very little for table time. Booze yes. I don't consider Dave and Busters a pool hall. Its a social gather of sorts. Obviously my argument centers more around bars than anything. But pool halls usually profit off their bar aspects before anything else.

[ChumpDumper]

When enough people don't want smoke or second hand smoke then the business owners will decide to change policy.
Or the people of the community will decide to change the policy through their elected officials.

[ChumpDumper]

Lots of pool halls charge very little for table time. Booze yes. I don't consider Dave and Busters a pool hall. Its a social gather of sorts. Obviously my argument centers more around bars than anything. But pool halls usually profit off their bar aspects before anything else.Right, and that won't change.

[BRHornet45]

Because business doesn't do better when you do that. When the business down the street allows you enter their bar and not be quarentined off.

I know second hand smoke is harmful. I've never once said it wasn't. If you don't want second hand smoke then don't go in to the fucking bar. Go to the the non-smoking bar.

When enough people don't want smoke or second hand smoke then the business owners will decide to change policy.

Why as an adult are so incapable of choosing for yourself? Its not selfish if your peers have a choice to not enter.

The smokers aren't infringing on the rights of the non-smokers if the non-smoker chooses to socialize in a smoking bar.

This is like a Catholic being pissed off that he can't worship the way he wants to in a Hindu church. Hey Catholic go find your own Catholic church and worship your way there. Now if the Catholic chooses to enter and socialize while the others worship their god in their own way he has made a choice to do so under his own power and no one forced him to. That Hindu church wasn't spreading their propoganda at malls or grocery stores. They did it in their own little place where people who want to be subject to it are.


LMAO .... please keep trying to defend it. your replies are priceless.

Now your comparing this to Catholics worshiping!? LMAO LMAO LMAO

[BacktoBasics]

The difference being that your choice to go and smoke in a bar, limits my choices as a non-smoker. Sure, I can choose to go sit in a smokey bar, or not. But whether that bar is smokey or not is dictated by your choice to either smoke or not. So your choice introduces an extra element and factor, that I as a non-smoker, have to consider when making my decision to either go out or not.

Conversely as a non-smoker, I add no extra element that you as a smoker have to consider when deciding whether or not to go out. So in effect, you're telling me that while I still have a choice, you should have a broader range of options and more choice than I do. And furthermore, that your decision to smoke should be allowed to impact and dictate the terms of my decision to enter an establishment. Why is that?What I'm saying is that its not my choice or yours its the choice of the bar owner who allows or doesn't allow smoking. If his business does well in an environment where smoking is allowed and is choosen legally by adults without influencing other forms of business or the general public outside his establishment then he has a right do so. If you don't like how his business is run choose another bar.

As an American adult I have the ability to exercise my own free will when it comes to choosing a bar to attend. If I don't like the establishments policies then I can just as easily choose to not enter.

Now the same rules don't apply across the board because minors going to dinner with their parents aren't afforded the same options.

That is the difference. Same thing with malls, grocery stores, sidewalks and building fronts.

Ban smoking in all public places except bars and pool halls seems very very reasonable. Ban smoking in pool halls that allow minors during the day. Seems reasonable as well.

[MannyIsGod]

If there's such a market for places without smoke, and if people hate it so much, why do they need government to enforce it? Why aren't there business opening up all over the place that forbid smoking on their own accord?

[Spurminator]

LMAO .... please keep trying to defend it. your replies are priceless.

Now your comparing this to Catholics worshiping!? LMAO LMAO LMAO


Good point.

Thanks for your contributions as always.

[balli]

What about the choice of the owner?

Like I said and this is where it get's personal. The United States doesn't give me the right to smoke marijuana in my own home. I've been arrested for it, taken away in handcuffs from my own home. So while I love the idea of private rights in general, I experience first-hand, every day, a governmental ban on something that I feel should be my own personal decision and right to use in the confines of my own private home.

But, the powers that be, say it's not my right... and if that's the case than I can only conclude that They can whimsically dictate whatever They want in regards to our personal rights.1And if that's the case, it only seems logical that They could and are reasonably dictating the parameters of our choice and rights in regard to cigarettes.





1Which brings the whole notion of what a "personal right" is, and whether personal rights even exist anyway, in to question. Which is a much scarier subject.

[leemajors]

What about the choice of the owner?

they can't choose the hours they are allowed to serve alcohol either.

[BacktoBasics]

LMAO .... please keep trying to defend it. your replies are priceless.

Now your comparing this to Catholics worshiping!? LMAO LMAO LMAO
Its a correlation to choice and it makes sense if you pull your fucking head out of your ass.

I don't have to defend anything to you because you're possibly the most ignorant moron I've ever met.

You completely fail to defend your own right of choice with your life. You also completely fail to realize that I'm on the side of banning smokers in almost all public areas.

Stand alone in your own stupidity and stupidity of the few in this thread that think this is a debate about smoking when in fact its a debate about the right to run an adult establishment as the owner sees fit. This isn't a debate about smokers you blind fucking koonass, I agree with you. Up to the point where they take fundamental rights away from adults who should make the decision on their own.

[leemajors]

Its a correlation to choice and it makes sense if you pull your fucking head out of your ass.

I don't have to defend anything to you because you're possibly the most ignorant moron I've ever met.

You completely fail to defend your own right of choice with your life. You also completely fail to realize that I'm on the side of banning smokers in almost all public areas.

Stand alone in your own stupidity and stupidity the few in this thread that think this is a debate about smoking when in fact its a debate about the right to run an adult establishment as the owner sees fit. This isn't a debate about smokers you blind fucking koonass, I agree with you. Up to the point where take fundamental rights away from adults who should make the decision on their own.

i understand what you're saying, more than a few of my friends think a pool hall isn't a pool hall without a smoke cloud. the bars won't lose any business, and some of them even ignore the ban. it's just not that big a deal when it actually happens. people go outside to smoke, and they get used to it. in Austin specifically, almost all of the bars in the Red River district tried to form some pro-smoking in bars coalition to fight the ban. all they did was waste their money and end up adding patios or decks for people to smoke on. everyone's pretty much moved on from feigning the death of the small bar and Austin music scene

[MannyIsGod]

The only thing these bans show is the that the majority of Americans feel they have a right to dictate their terms onto a business owner because they feel they have a right to go eat at Chilis or go have a drink at Billys pool hall and not smell like smoke. Sure, they could opt to simply not go and end up not smelling like smoke, but instead they use the fact that they represent a majority to override the rights of the business owner.

These are private establishments, and this is not public property. People use those terms incorrectly a ton here. Simply because a private establishment allows you in does not mean they are public.

[Spurminator]

they can't choose the hours they are allowed to serve alcohol either.

But your alcohol consumption has the potential to affect people outside the bar.... on the roads, etc.

[The Reckoning]

everyone should get their fatasses out of the way. i mean, seriously, when fat fucks sit next to me on the bus, their huge asses invade my space. the government should limit us to three meals a day and mandate no eating in public facilities.

[BacktoBasics]

i understand what you're saying, more than a few of my friends think a pool hall isn't a pool hall without a smoke cloud. the bars won't lose any business, and some of them even ignore the ban. it's just not that big a deal when it actually happens. people go outside to smoke, and they get used to it. in Austin specifically, almost all of the bars in the Red River district tried to form some pro-smoking in bars coalition to fight the ban. all they did was waste their money and end up adding patios or decks for people to smoke on. everyone's pretty much moved on from feigning the death of the small bar and Austin music scene
I hear you. What that tells me isn't something thats new to me. We as a whole have allowed are rights and abilities as adult americans to be twisted, turned and destroyed for a long time now.

They fought and lost. I think its horrible the inability of compromise with our governments. If you're going to strip us of our rights then at least compromise.

[Bender]

the previous fart comments remind me of an old steve martin comedy bit:

He's sitting in a bar, and a woman next to him says: Pardon me, do you mind if I smoke?

Steve martin: Why no, do you mind if I fart?

I have to side with the opinion that bars/clubs should have smoking allowed, even though I don't smoke.

pretty soon I can see people calling the police on their neighbors, who are smoking in their own yard, but "bothering" the neighbor. In fact, I may have read about this happening already.

[BacktoBasics]

The only thing these bans show is the that the majority of Americans feel they have a right to dictate their terms onto a business owner because they feel they have a right to go eat at Chilis or go have a drink at Billys pool hall and not smell like smoke. Sure, they could opt to simply not go and end up not smelling like smoke, but instead they use the fact that they represent a majority to override the rights of the business owner.

These are private establishments, and this is not public property. People use those terms incorrectly a ton here. Simply because a private establishment allows you in does not mean they are public.As much as I agree with this and as much as I agree that they have no right dictate behavior in any establishment PERIOD I have to reconcile myself to understanding that its not necessarily a bad thing with places that cater to or have patrons that are minors and aren't afforded the same ability to choose like adults have.

Thats really the line in the sand for me. Even though the line should legally be much further back I'm willing to compromise because adults have proven they're inable to properly care for their own children.

[balli]

These are private establishments, and this is not public property. People use those terms incorrectly a ton here. Simply because a private establishment allows you in does not mean they are public.
Like I said though. In plenty of instances, with plenty of substances, the government has shown no qualms about enforcing bans, even within the confines of private property. So that precedent has been set.

And while you're right that a private establishment is not public, if it's open for business to the general public, it is at least a public venue, if still a private establishment. Which leaves me with questions pertaining to the whole private v. public dichotomy. And so choosing not to make this into a black and white matter, surely I concede the notion of being a public venue complicates things and leads this debate into more murky waters.

[MannyIsGod]

As much as I agree with this and as much as I agree that they have no right dictate behavior in any establishment PERIOD I have to reconcile myself to understanding that its not necessarily a bad thing with places that cater to or have patrons that are minors and aren't afforded the same ability to choose like adults have.

Thats really the line in the sand for me. Even though the line should legally be much further back I'm willing to compromise because adults have proven they're inable to properly care for their own children.

WTF - what minors can't choose where to go?

[MannyIsGod]

Like I said though. In plenty of instances, with plenty of substances, the government has shown no qualms about enforcing bans, even within the confines of private property. So that precedent has been set.

Gee - that must make it right. Nothing you just said contradicts anything I said, btw



And while you're right that a private establishment is not public, but if it's open for business to the general public, it is at least public venue, if still a private establishment. Which leaves me with questions and so choosing not to make this into a black and white matter, surely I concede the notion of being a public venue complicates things and leads this debate into more murky waters.

There's nothing murky. If you don't like smoke, then don't go in. Problem solved, right? Except you think you have a right to go into that place under the conditions you choose, right?

[MannyIsGod]

I think we should enforce a ban of saturated fats in the foods restaurants serve. its a public health hazard.

[BacktoBasics]

WTF - what minors can't choose where to go?You used to be able to smoke in grocery stores, banks, office buildings and so on. I used to go the Frost building downtown when I was little because thats where my father worked. I hated to walk through the hallways of his floor filled with smoke.

A 5 year old can't choose to not sit down at Chili's with his parents who were seated right next to the smoking sections.

The toddler can't choose to not go to HEB with mom while she does the shopping.

I'm talking about kids here.

[T Park]

On the one hand, I agree with B2B because I feel like if I want to open a bar called "Smokey's Smoking Bar for Smokers" in downtown Dallas, I should be able to, and I should not have to cater to non-smokers if that's not my clientele. It surprises me that the anti-smoking sentiment is strong enough that these bans can be passed and supported, but it's apparently not strong enough for people to stay away from bars and pool halls where the smoking bothers you, causing enough demand for bar owners to voluntarily ban smoking to attract the non-smoking crowd.

On the other hand, I only smoke when I drink, and I should probably quit doing that, so maybe this will help. And to ChumpDumper's point, the net effect is pretty minimal. People will just smoke outside. But for argument's sake, I think it's still an unnecessary infringement of rights and further example that people need the government to protect them from shit they don't like and could voluntarily avoid if they really wanted to.


After they are done with smoking, the government will find a new avenue.


God bless bigger government.

[T Park]

I think we should enforce a ban of saturated fats in the foods restaurants serve. its a public health hazard.


Thats where that will start.

Then there will be a banning of red meat, cause its unhealthy and on and on and on.

Its the way the government works, and people that love government getting involved who will be pissed when it happens have no one to blame but themselves.

[MannyIsGod]

You used to be able to smoke in grocery stores, banks, office buildings and so on. I used to go the Frost building downtown when I was little because thats where my father worked. I hated to walk through the hallways of his floor filled with smoke.

A 5 year old can't choose to not sit down at Chili's with his parents who were seated right next to the smoking sections.

The toddler can't choose to not go to HEB with mom while she does the shopping.

I'm talking about kids here.

We should obviously ban sweets then. Because parents can choose to give their kids too much sweets and the kids get fat and unhealthy which is of course not their fault.

[BacktoBasics]

We should obviously ban sweets then. Because parents can choose to give their kids too much sweets and the kids get fat and unhealthy which is of course not their fault.
That would work if the sweets were given by total strangers in the form of air.

Obviously the parents have some control but I think its far fetched to have to wear a gas mask to shop for cabbage.

I think most are willing to compromise. I'm not completely negating your point though.

[BacktoBasics]

I'm going to go watch some porn for a minute. Hopefully Manny can keep up the fight.

[MannyIsGod]

That would work if the sweets were given by total strangers in the form of air.

Obviously the parents have some control but I think its far fetched to have to wear a gas mask to shop for cabbage.

I think most are willing to compromise. I'm not completely negating your point though.

If by some control you mean all control then yes I agree. Parents can choose to not take their children into a Chili's smoking section or Billy's Pool Hall. They're not required to go there.

There is a hell of an argument for a work place that sure as hell isn't present in this argument. In fact, the only legit arguement here would be to argue for the workers of the establishment and that hasn't even been mentioned in this thread because this shit isn't about people's actual rights.

Its about the majority having their way. Thats all.

[T Park]

If by some control you mean all control then yes I agree. Parents can choose to not take their children into a Chili's smoking section or Billy's Pool Hall. They're not required to go there.

There is a hell of an argument for a work place that sure as hell isn't present in this argument. In fact, the only legit arguement here would be to argue for the workers of the establishment and that hasn't even been mentioned in this thread because this shit isn't about people's actual rights.

Its about the majority having their way. Thats all.



I still see no reason why an establishment couldn't keep a well ventilated smoking section.

It makes no sense to just ban it outright.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Can we please stop calling it a health issue and call it what it really is; an annoyance issue?

[balli]

Gee - that must make it right.
You're right- two wrongs do not make a right. Here's the problem; and I admitted earlier to it being personal. I'm guessing that as an internet gambler, you're pissed about legislation that prohibits gambling. Consequently, you have taken the road in which you view this an outrage and unnecessary infliction that must be retaliated against. It is an issue analogous to smoking bans, which you feel are an unfair infliction on the rights of private establishments.

I on the other hand, am pissed about legislation that prohibits marijuana use. Consequently, I have taken the road where while I view it as an outrage and unnecessary infliction, I am wholly pragmatic about the reality that the legislation exists.

And while it sucks and I think it's wrong, I also think that it basically means the government can do whatever they want with our supposed rights. I am entirely cynical about the limits of personal and private rights at this point. And since that's the case, I'll gladly use such a precedent and argument in favor of


[having] a right to go into that place under the conditions you choose
when it benefits my health and clothing.

[MannyIsGod]

Can we please stop calling it a health issue and call it what it really is; an annoyance issue?

Exactly. If people were really concerned with health in this country would we all be a bunch of fat fast food eating fucks? No.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Exactly. If people were really concerned with health in this country would we all be a bunch of fat fast food eating fucks? No.

Yeah, that and the second hand smoke scare is complete bullshit.

[MannyIsGod]

You're right- two wrongs do not make a right. Here's the problem; and I admitted earlier to it being personal. I'm guessing that as an internet gambler, you're pissed about legislation that prohibits gambling. Consequently, you have taken the road in which you view this an outrage and unnecessary infliction that must be retaliated against. It is an issue analogous to smoking bans, which you feel are an unfair infliction on the rights of private establishments.

I on the other hand, am pissed about legislation that prohibits marijuana use. Consequently, I have taken the road where while I view it as an outrage and unnecessary infliction, yet I am wholly pragmatic about the reality that the legislation exists.

And while it sucks and I think it's wrong, I also think that it basically means the government can do whatever they want with our supposed rights. I am entirely cynical about the limits personal and private rights at this point. And since that's the case, I'll gladly use such precedent and argument in favor of


LOL @ you eating fighting for a smoking ban being the same as opposing bans on (allegedly) unlawful internet gambling. Do you see how this is so oxymoronic?

Just as long as you admit it has everything to do with what you want over the actual rights of a person. You don't give a shit about anyone's rights but your own. I don't smoke, I hate smelling like smoke. Guess what? I don't go to bars anymore. I don't sit in smoking sections. I avoid that shit. That doesnt' mean I'm going to support some bullshit city ordinances that are just about assholes wanting to have THEIR way instead of simply enacting a choice.



when it benefits my health and clothing.

Much easier to have the government enact your way instead of simply not going to these places. I mean fuck, who doesn't have the right to go to Billy's Pool hall after dinner at Chilis and have the air the way THEY want it? Go home instead? Fuck that!

[balli]

You don't give a shit about anyone's rights but your own.

That's not true. You're completely missing the point that I challenge the notion of rights existing at all.

I think our rights are whatever the government say are our rights, in which case they aren't really rights at all, but imposed allowances... or dis-allowances. And philosophically, while I don't think it's right, I think it's the system we got. And under this system, in which it seems like the government can do whatever the fuck they want, I see no reason on a legal or rights based line of reasoning, that would lead me to conclude that the government doesn't have the power or precedent to enforce smoking bans.

[ploto]

I am all for people's rights, but smoking is not a right and hence its exercise can be limited by the government. Driving is not a right and the government can tell you when you can and can not drive and under what circumstances.

[I Love Me Some Me]

I am all for people's rights, but smoking is not a right and hence its exercise can be limited by the government. Driving is not a right and the government can tell you when you can and can not drive and under what circumstances.

[balli]

I am all for people's rights, but smoking is not a right and hence its exercise can be limited by the government.

Exactly. It is an allowance.

[MannyIsGod]

I guess life is an allowance too because governments around the world take that away when they see fit - even the US government.

I don't think you guys understand the meaning of the word right.

[BacktoBasics]

No but the ability to allow smoking in your establishment is a right.

[balli]

We're at an impasse. This is what I meant about being entirely cynical.

I guess life is an allowance too because governments around the world take that away when they see fit - even the US government.
Yes. Pretty much. I think most of us are just pawns in a fucked up world.

Peace out.

[MannyIsGod]

BTW, I wasn't arguing that smoking anywhere you want is a right. Obviously you can't go light up wherever you want. I was arguing for the right of a business person to choose how to run his establishment. That has nothing to do with smoking being a right or not and everything to do with what I choose to do in a place I own.

[BacktoBasics]

Well fuck it. If you're an American you have very few right period. What little rights you do have are not only subject to the parimeters of our governments but limited in ability to be full exercised.

We barely have the right to say we have rights.

I think a lot of people are willing to compromise for the betterment of our public places either for health or preference alone. Time and time again organizations who have power along with our own government have proven that compromise, if any, is short lived before they deem to take it away completely. Leaving the shell of actually having rights in its place to make you feel all warm and fuzzy at night.

[BRHornet45]

I think we should enforce a ban of saturated fats in the foods restaurants serve. its a public health hazard.


LOL nice sarcasm, but its funny that this is coming from someone who is clearly a fatass. (judging by your pictures you have posted in the past) .... so its no wonder that you don't give two shits about other peoples health ... you don't care enough about your own lol.

[BacktoBasics]

LOL nice sarcasm, but its funny that this is coming from someone who is clearly a fatass. (judging by your pictures you have posted in the past) .... so its no wonder that you don't give two shits about other peoples health ... you don't care enough about your own lol.and then and then and then and then and then and then you're like a record and then and then you can't formulate a real argument other than the health card even though this was about the rights of business owners and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then.

[MannyIsGod]

LOL nice sarcasm, but its funny that this is coming from someone who is clearly a fatass. (judging by your pictures you have posted in the past) .... so its no wonder that you don't give two shits about other peoples health ... you don't care enough about your own lol.

Happiness > Health IMO.

[BacktoBasics]

BRHornet45 whatever you do don't stick your hand in the tree chipper. It'll cut it right off. I'll keep you posted on when its safe to resume activity once the tree chipper has been removed for good.

[DarkReign]

Tramp pussies and their propensity to legislate against those they find unredeemable.

Fuck you hippies who want a smoke ban. No one is forcing you into the door, are they?

Im not talking about Chilis or whatever, thats understandable. But when you are IDed to get into a building (18+ or 21+) you are now in the company of adults. Try and act like one. Or dont. Hire a lawyer and interest group.

You fucking whiners. "Whaaaa, my clothes! Whaaa, my health-risks!" Is it your bar? Were you forced to go inside? What, pray tell, makes you want to go into a bar then?

Whatever. Pussies. The lot of you.

[BacktoBasics]

Hey BR you might not want to wrap your big lips around an exhaust pipe while the vehicle is running either.

[BacktoBasics]

Say BR I'll let you know when the government puts a mesh netting around your drain because you might not be able to keep yourself from jamming your massive fist into the garbage disposal.

[leemajors]

I still see no reason why an establishment couldn't keep a well ventilated smoking section.

It makes no sense to just ban it outright.

a proper ventilation system is fucking expensive.

[BacktoBasics]

a proper ventilation system is fucking expensive.10's of thousands.

[BRHornet45]

and then and then and then and then and then and then you're like a record and then and then you can't formulate a real argument other than the health card even though this was about the rights of business owners and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then and then.


lol nice comeback as usual from you. its been funny kicking your ass son.

[balli]

a proper ventilation system is fucking expensive.
Tell me about it maaaaan.
http://www.wewantwhidden.com/images/Steve_Don_at_Indoor_Grow_Op.jpg

[BRHornet45]

B2B is the cuckold bitch boy of the year!

[tlongII]

What's the matter? Don't you guys wanna be like California?

[BacktoBasics]

lol nice comeback as usual from you. its been funny kicking your ass son.You completely missed the point of the argument. You failed to provide any additional points of interest beyond health concerns. You were an abortion of competition in this debate. I'd guess that less than 3% of the regulars on this board take you seriously.

again

You've completely missed the point of the argument. If you don't even know what you're debating how do you think you've won?

[tlongII]

Personally I think business will improve as a result of the smoking ban. Do you realize how many non-smokers drink?

[BacktoBasics]

ballijuana -

what have you done in support of helping the current hemp cause? Is that you pictured?

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

You completely missed the point of the argument. You failed to provide any additional points of interest beyond health concerns. You were an abortion of competition in this debate. I'd guess that less than 3% of the regulars on this board take you seriously.

again

You've completely missed the point of the argument. If you don't even know what you're debating how do you think you've won?


Let him debate the health hazards.

I'll start: Name 10 people who have died from ETS. At 3000/year since the EPA report came out in '93, you should have plenty of names in a matter of minutes.

Don't come back until you get the names and they can be verified.

[jack sommerset]

If a establishment such as Chilis wants smoking then don't eat at Chilis. If you are a cook,a waitress, bus boy,accountant, dishwasher and do not want to be around smokers while you work, don't work at Chilis or anywhere that allows smoking. I have a 5 year old. If Chucky Cheese allowed smokers I would not go. Use common sense.

My father smoked 2 packs a day for 43 years. He finally quit 5 years ago. He is healthy at 65. No bullshit. Here is a surprise. Everyone of his kids donot smoke and they are all HEALTHY. No bullshit. Grand kids that are old enough to be around him until he quit are HEALTHY. Two wives he had, HEALTHY. That is second hand smoke. People around a smoker at a Chilis for a hour is not second hand smoke. You will not die from sitting in the smoking section at Chilis neither will your kids. Now if you are like BrHornet and find it filthy to be around it, guess what, DONT EAT THERE!

Seriously, use common sense.

[chode_regulator]

Are you serious dude? I think there's some pretty conclusive science on the danger of second hand smoke.

most people who are dangered from second hand smoke are the ones who live with smokers. bc they smoke in their own house, all day!!! not at a bar where youre at for maybe a few hours a week.
personally i think it should be up to the establishment. for me theres nothing better than going to a local dive bar where you know everyone and its all dark and smoky inside.


first time i went home to victoria and found out about theban i almost cried. i smoked back then and was really confused on why we went outside in the cold to smoke til my friend explained they had jsut passed that banthere.

[Bender]

You fucking whiners. "Whaaaa, my clothes! Whaaa, my health-risks!" Is it your bar? Were you forced to go inside? What, pray tell, makes you want to go into a bar then?well said.
unfortunately the country is filling up with people who want, and need, a nanny state. Please Mr. Government man, protect me, tell me what to do, keep bad stuff away from me, hold my hand, don't let anybody hurt my feelings...

<--- barf smiley goes here. didn't feel like looking for it.

[leemajors]

No one of intelligence resents the inevitable. - Arthur C. Clarke

the inevitable is every single state/city/town adopting this sort of law. deal with it.

[BacktoBasics]

the inevitable is every single state/city/town adopting this sort of law. deal with it.
This is horrible.

Nothing could be worse.

I hope you don't have the same approach with everything.

[leemajors]

This is horrible.

Nothing could be worse.

I hope you don't have the same approach with everything.

just when i don't really care about something. i quit smoking a few years ago, they give me headaches.

[BacktoBasics]

just when i don't really care about something. i quit smoking a few years ago, they give me headaches.
Right we are talking about fundamental rights here. You should care.

Surely you've cared in the past or now about certain rights being stripped from us.

[ChumpDumper]

There is a fundamental right to allow smoking in bars?

[BacktoBasics]

There is a fundamental right to allow smoking in bars?
Yes. The right of the business owner to do what he wants with his personal property so long as its within the law. Don't tell me its public property because he purchased it personally and its open to the public if they so desire to enter. Smoking is legal. Tobacco is legal. He has the right to allow smoking at his establishment. He's not willing it on anyone when its their adult choice to enter or not.

I'm willing to understand rights of ownership being stripped in certain public circumstances like restaurants, malls etc even though its still way out of line. I see the good in it.

[ChumpDumper]

Yes. The right of the business owner to do what he wants with his personal property so long as its within the law.Well there you go. They just changed the law. You can change it back you can get enough people to agree with you and act on it.

[CuckingFunt]

As an asthmatic, I appreciate the ability to go into a bar and not have an attack within five minutes.

That being said, many of my friends and family are/have been smokers and I can understand their frustration at not being able to smoke in a bar.

[BacktoBasics]

Well there you go. They just changed the law. You can change it back you can get enough people to agree with you and act on it.
No shit wise ass. Thats the point of the entire thread. Its wrong. Its fundamentally wrong for the ban to have been passed.

No it doesn't boil down to getting enough people to act on it if you have a few who have the power on your side.

The people who enacted the bar and pool hall ban in Corpus numbered less than 12. There has been a petition with well over 15k signatures on it requesting that there be no ban period well before the bar ban. A select few have been pushing their own personal agenda.

[T Park]

No shit wise ass. Thats the point of the entire thread. Its wrong. Its fundamentally wrong for the ban to have been passed.

No it doesn't boil down to getting enough people to act on it if you have a few who have the power on your side.

The people who enacted the bar and pool hall ban in Corpus numbered less than 12. There has been a petition with well over 15k signatures on it requesting that there be no ban period well before the bar ban. A select few have been pushing their own personal agenda.


Sounds like the beginning of the Global warming agenda as well.

[ChumpDumper]

No shit wise ass. Thats the point of the entire thread. Its wrong. Its fundamentally wrong for the ban to have been passed.Not at all.There are myriad laws limiting and proscribing the actions of business owners. This is just another one of them.


No it doesn't boil down to getting enough people to act on it if you have a few who have the power on your side.Then get some people who agree with you in power.


The people who enacted the bar and pool hall ban in Corpus numbered less than 12. There has been a petition with well over 15k signatures on it requesting that there be no ban period well before the bar ban. A select few have been pushing their own personal agenda.Then work to get those people out of office.

[ChumpDumper]

I know this is an editorial, but I'd like to find out some more about the study cited here.


The citizens of Helena voted in June 2002 to ban smoking in all public buildings -- including restaurants, bars and casinos. Soon after, doctors at the local hospital noticed that heart-attack admissions were dropping. So they, in conjunction with the University of California, San Francisco, did a study to measure the potential short-term effects of a smoking ban.

Helena is a perfect place for such a study: relatively isolated, with enough people in the region (66,000) for a meaningful population sample, and only one cardiac-care hospital within a 60-mile radius. So it was easy to control the study sample and methodology: if you get a heart attack in Helena, there's only one place to go for treatment.

The study showed two trends. First, there was no change in heart attack rates for patients who lived outside city limits. But for city residents, the rates plummeted by 58 percent in only six months.

''We know from longer-term studies that the effects of secondhand smoke occur within minutes, and that long-term exposure to secondhand smoke is associated with a 30 percent increased risk in heart attack rates,'' says Stanton Glantz, a professor of medicine who conducted the study's statistical analysis. ''But it was quite stunning to document this large an effect so quickly.''

It was also stunning to witness what happened next. The Montana State Legislature, under pressure from the Montana Tavern Association and tobacco lobbyists, rescinded the ban in December. The result: heart-attack rates bounced back up almost as quickly as they dropped.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A0CE3DA1E3FF936A25753C1A9659C8B 63

Now when you start considering all the health costs involved, it becomes a pocketbook issue to me -- more akin to a seat belt or helmet law.

Sorry I'm not as principled as you guys about this. I just can't bring myself to care all that much for smokers' enablers' rights, especially when the smokers can just stand outside for a couple of minutes.

[leemajors]

Yes. The right of the business owner to do what he wants with his personal property so long as its within the law. Don't tell me its public property because he purchased it personally and its open to the public if they so desire to enter. Smoking is legal. Tobacco is legal. He has the right to allow smoking at his establishment. He's not willing it on anyone when its their adult choice to enter or not.

I'm willing to understand rights of ownership being stripped in certain public circumstances like restaurants, malls etc even though its still way out of line. I see the good in it.

i really don't understand the uproar. this has happened in many places, and hasn't affected the bottom lines for bars in those places, despite what those owners thought.

[BacktoBasics]

Then work to get those people out of office.You're right. Instead of expecting the people in office to hold our basic rights up for us we'll have to grin and bear it until time permits myself and others to fight each and every cause on our own. This has worked. Look how easily we got Bush and Clinton impeached. We managed to free ourselves from the unconstitutional taxing of our labor and wages too. I've freed up just enough time last month to rally support against the Patriot Act and all this illegal wiretapping business. Not long ago we put a stop to this illegal search and seizure of drawing blood if we lawfully refused a breath test.

Fuck it lets do it all in reverse. Take it all away and we'll spend the rest of our lives fighting for each new right. Its just a god damn piece of paper. I know I for one would find that game full of fun. Never in my life have I seen so many of our constitutional rights manipulated to benefit the opinion of a few.

[BacktoBasics]

i really don't understand the uproar. this has happened in many places, and hasn't affected the bottom lines for bars in those places, despite what those owners thought.I'd like you to back that up. I and many others disagree.

When did we start giving people the right to choose for us? Thats the real argument behind all of this. I understand doing things to protect the public but in the case of bars it simply doesn't fit. The choice is there. I don't want them deciding for me. Its Un-American.

[BacktoBasics]

One thing is very clear. Many of you seem to prefer that the government and small interest groups make your decisions for you.

I for one still prefer my choice and prefer others to be afforded the same ability whether I agree with it or not.

I'm a non-smoker. I wouldn't mind a smoke free invironment but its not for me to decide its the person who owns the properties choice. Not mine not the government not the anti-smoking fanatics.

I respect his choice and I respect my ability to decide not to enter if I don't want to. We are slowly losing our ability to choose for ourselves. I despise it. It makes me hate the current state of this country.

[Blake]

Wanna ban porn from HEB fine makes sense. Wanna ban porn from a porn shop. Doesn't add up does it.

Because you can choose to not enter.

Since when is a pool hall a smoke shop? Their primary business is selling booze and renting out tables. The cigarette machine is usually way in the back.

it sucks that smokers narrow my choices of where I can go. Thanks to those pricks, I have to hear people like you say "if you don't like it, then don't go"

It's finally a relief that I'm able to go to a bowling alley without coming out feeling like my lungs are going to collapse.

Can't wait for the bars and pool halls to be next.

I do agree with your logic though that a smoke shop/humidor should be allowed to have smokers in it. That's about it.

[ChumpDumper]

You're right. Instead of expecting the people in office to hold our basic rights up for us we'll have to grin and bear it until time permits myself and others to fight each and every cause on our own. This has worked. Look how easily we got Bush and Clinton impeached. We managed to free ourselves from the unconstitutional taxing of our labor and wages too. I've freed up just enough time last month to rally support against the Patriot Act and all this illegal wiretapping business. Not long ago we put a stop to this illegal search and seizure of drawing blood if we lawfully refused a breath test.

Fuck it lets do it all in reverse. Take it all away and we'll spend the rest of our lives fighting for each new right. Its just a god damn piece of paper. I know I for one would find that game full of fun. Never in my life have I seen so many of our constitutional rights manipulated to benefit the opinion of a few.Smoking bans have been rescinded in the past.

This is pretty much the only way you are going to do it, but it sounds like you are content just to whine about it on the internets.

[BacktoBasics]

Since when is a pool hall a smoke shop? Their primary business is selling booze and renting out tables. The cigarette machine is usually way in the back.

it sucks that smokers narrow my choices of where I can go. Thanks to those pricks, I have to hear people like you say "if you don't like it, then don't go"

It's finally a relief that I'm able to go to a bowling alley without coming out feeling like my lungs are going to collapse.

Can't wait for the bars and pool halls to be next.

I do agree with your logic though that a smoke shop/humidor should be allowed to have smokers in it. That's about it.Most not all pool halls are extensions of bars.

Shouldn't you be more pissed that no one bothered to open a smoke free establishment for you hang out in? Why strip the rights of others who are operating their business as they see fit to accomodate your preference? Why should the person who owns the business be forced to work around your opinion? It is his business isn't it? Smoking is legal isn't it? Can you not make your rules within the law within your own home?

[BacktoBasics]

Smoking bans have been rescinded in the past.

This is pretty much the only way you are going to do it, but it sounds like you are content just to whine about it on the internets.
I sent angry letters. I'm going to attend the public meetings and I'm going to organize a non-smoking march in support of eleminating the smoking ban.

I could staple our rights on their foreheads and it wouldn't matter.

Where have smoking bans been rescinded. I've never heard of such a thing. I'd like to know where and how?

[ChumpDumper]

One thing is very clear. Many of you seem to prefer that the government and small interest groups make your decisions for you.Did you just move here?


I for one still prefer my choice and prefer others to be afforded the same ability whether I agree with it or not.

I'm a non-smoker. I wouldn't mind a smoke free invironment but its not for me to decide its the person who owns the properties choice. Not mine not the government not the anti-smoking fanatics.

I respect his choice and I respect my ability to decide not to enter if I don't want to. We are slowly losing our ability to choose for ourselves. I despise it. It makes me hate the current state of this country.The non-smoking part I like.

[ChumpDumper]

I sent angry letters. I'm going to attend the public meetings and I'm going to organize a non-smoking march in support of eleminating the smoking ban.

I could staple our rights on their foreheads and it wouldn't matter.

Where have smoking bans been rescinded. I've never heard of such a thing. I'd like to know where and how?
They just did it in Atlantic city.

They did it in Montana in the editorial I posted.

[leemajors]

I'd like you to back that up. I and many others disagree.

When did we start giving people the right to choose for us? Thats the real argument behind all of this. I understand doing things to protect the public but in the case of bars it simply doesn't fit. The choice is there. I don't want them deciding for me. Its Un-American.

the red river bar scene here in austin backs it up. they're doing fine, booking more acts than ever.

[BacktoBasics]

They just did it in Atlantic city.

They did it in Montana in the editorial I posted.
only in casinos I think. Probably realized that it wasn't a good idea to expect your prospective customer to actually leave your establishment in the middle of spending money.

[ChumpDumper]

only in casinos I think. Probably realized that it wasn't a good idea to expect your prospective customer to actually leave your establishment in the middle of spending money.In both cases, the economic argument was used. It got parts of the ban up here rescinded or altered for a time up here before it all turned out to be bullshit.

[leemajors]

In both cases, the economic argument was used. It got parts of the ban up here rescinded or altered for a time up here before it all turned out to be bullshit.

yeah the owner of beerland threw a gigantic hissy fit about it, stating he would lose all his business. nothing happened, and nobody complains about it anymore at all. it's nice to have all the outdoor patios and decks now though at the different bars.

[BacktoBasics]

the red river bar scene here in austin backs it up. they're doing fine, booking more acts than ever.You're missing my point. Obviously people would choose to go out over staying home. They would also choose a smoking establishment over a non-smoking one. Corpus has at least proved that here with the partial ban.

The ultimate point is that I don't think its right for someone else to make the choice for me. This is a blatant stripping of my right to choose and the rights of the business owners to choose too.

I'm tired of them inforcing what they think I should do. I want my right to choice back. I want the business owners rights back and I want you to exercise your right to not walk in the place.

Now again for the millionth time I can see where its applicable and beneficial in a lot of places publically even though its still a clear violation of the business owners right to choose.

Austin is a strange town but if they lifted the ban tomorrow do you think all these bars and pool halls would still enforce non-smoking? I don't think you can honestly say yes. Even if some did over time people would migrate to the smoking venues because they "choose" to do so.

Do you not see the freedoms people are losing.

[BacktoBasics]

For a minute can we please move this discussion to actual personal property rights instead of fiscal ramifications?

I think some of you guys are making fine arguments I do but I'd like to see more points agruing against the business owners rights to run their business as they see fit.

Fiscally well or not I think nearly all of those business would go back to allowing smokers if they could.

So I'd like you guys to drop your .02 on why its ok to strip us of our ability to exercise free will and the ability of the business owner to operate his personal property how he sees fit. Most of you guys aren't Pro bailouts why is ok for the government to meddle with this?

I think its tough to take the health angle because drinking, smoking, pill popping, fast food and so forth are all perfectly legal and you still have a choice there. So my argument would be centered on bars not restaurants, grocery stores, malls and like public places. Would you not be outraged if they banned fast food? Booze?

[leemajors]

You're missing my point. Obviously people would choose to go out over staying home. They would also choose a smoking establishment over a non-smoking one. Corpus has at least proved that here with the partial ban.

The ultimate point is that I don't think its right for someone else to make the choice for me. This is a blatant stripping of my right to choose and the rights of the business owners to choose too.

I'm tired of them inforcing what they think I should do. I want my right to choice back. I want the business owners rights back and I want you to exercise your right to not walk in the place.

Now again for the millionth time I can see where its applicable and beneficial in a lot of places publically even though its still a clear violation of the business owners right to choose.

Austin is a strange town but if they lifted the ban tomorrow do you think all these bars and pool halls would still enforce non-smoking? I don't think you can honestly say yes. Even if some did over time people would migrate to the smoking venues because they "choose" to do so.

Do you not see the freedoms people are losing.

i see the loss of this particular "freedom." you should probably just move on to the next one before it's gone though, instead of championing a lost cause. slippery slope!

[tlongII]

I'm proud to say that I support the ban on smoking.

[ChumpDumper]

You're missing my point. Obviously people would choose to go out over staying home. They would also choose a smoking establishment over a non-smoking one. Corpus has at least proved that here with the partial ban.Austin has proved that to be untrue with its full ban. Folks can go outside the city limits to smoke, in some cases mere blocks away from in-town bars. It hasn't happened.


Austin is a strange town but if they lifted the ban tomorrow do you think all these bars and pool halls would still enforce non-smoking? I don't think you can honestly say yes. Even if some did over time people would migrate to the smoking venues because they "choose" to do so.Smokers might. I'd just go to the bars I go to now, just like the smokers did after the ban was passed.


Do you not see the freedoms people are losing.In this case, no. I really don't.

[The Reckoning]

oh well, the smoking ban only makes corpus a slightly less badass place.

[BacktoBasics]

i see the loss of this particular "freedom." you should probably just move on to the next one before it's gone though, instead of championing a lost cause. slippery slope!
Well fuck I can't agrue that.

[leemajors]

I think some of you guys are making fine arguments I do but I'd like to see more points agruing against the business owners rights to run their business as they see fit.

the only thing i would have to say about that is business owners can't really run their businesses as they see fit for the most part, unless they are a private club with members who pay dues.

[The Reckoning]

the only thing i would have to say about that is business owners can't really run their businesses as they see fit for the most part, unless they are a private club with members who pay dues.


true. it started with the ADA.

[BacktoBasics]

In this case, no. I really don't.If thats the case then you and I have nothing left to say to each other. Your work in this thread is done. Nothing left for you here. Move along.

I won't dispute your previous points. They may be founded. My argument has definately shifted more to the stripping of rights than about fiscal ramifications. You guys have done a decent job convincing me that a total across the board ban isn't as harmful to establishments than a partial ban.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

One thing is very clear. Many of you seem to prefer that the government and small interest groups make your decisions for you.

I for one still prefer my choice and prefer others to be afforded the same ability whether I agree with it or not.

I'm a non-smoker. I wouldn't mind a smoke free invironment but its not for me to decide its the person who owns the properties choice. Not mine not the government not the anti-smoking fanatics.

I respect his choice and I respect my ability to decide not to enter if I don't want to. We are slowly losing our ability to choose for ourselves. I despise it. It makes me hate the current state of this country.


I understand your point is about freedom of choice. I agree that big brother already makes up our minds for us far too often. I get it, and I agree with that.

But smoking bans, I think, are one of those issues that will be difficult to get a lot of public support as a matter of people's right to choose being violated, however.

Only about 20% of Americans smoke cigarettes, yet 100% of people in the vicinity of a smoker are affected by that person's choice to smoke. In my mind, the 20% of people who are smokers are a 'small interest group' that's previously prevented me from enjoying the same activities that they enjoy.

In a not so subtle way, smokers prevent nonsmokers from enjoying the same venues that a smoker enjoys. What non-smoker enjoys sitting near a smoker? Being in a smoke filled bar? Or bowling alley? Or sitting in the smoking section of a restaurant? Personally I would only hang out in any of those places if I was forced to, because I hate cigarette smoke. Sure I have the choice...I could go and deal with the smoke filled room, or just not go to those places at all. The 20% who smoke were negatively affecting, inconveniencing, or preventing altogether, the enjoyment of that venue for the 80% of us that don't smoke.

Now the 20% are inconvenienced. The rest of us are liberated. The smokers aren't being prevented from going to those places, they just can't smoke there. They'll have to choose whether to deal with it or just not go at all. I don't see it as a bad thing. Had the smokers not invaded the personal space of the nonsmokers with their smoke in the first place, the need for the ban wouldn't exist. I blame the smokers for this law...and pitbulls.

If smoking in public affected no one but the smoker, I'd say these laws are certainly a violation of people's right to choose. But I'd argue that all these bans do is force smokers to do what seems to be what common decency should dictate, which is not subject others to something potentially harmful that you choose to participate in. Smoking around a nonsmoker could be considered an invasion of privacy for the nonsmoker.

The 80% have spoken. Majority rules. It's as American as apple pie.

Personally, this should help me avoid unfortunate confrontations in which I've asked smokers near me to 'move it elsewhere'. Sometimes those conversations didn't end well.

[ChumpDumper]

If thats the case then you and I have nothing left to say to each other. Your work in this thread is done. Nothing left for you here. Move along.:lol


I won't dispute your previous points. They may be founded. My argument has definately shifted more to the stripping of rights than about fiscal ramifications. You guys have done a decent job convincing me that a total across the board ban isn't as harmful to establishments than a partial ban.Fair enough. Again, I equate it more with a seat belt or helmet law. I can see why it pisses people off, but ultimately I'm sold on the benefits.

[DarkReign]

Well, at least there are some non-pussy states left in the union. Sadly, I dont believe Michigan will be long on that list. The smoking ban will die for the 5th or 6th time in the Michigan Senate, per usual.

Private establishments. Dont want smoke on your clothes, in your healthy, sanctimonious lungs? Dont go to that bar, nancy boy. Simple.

[jack sommerset]

You would think the chicken who ranted on and on and on about the sky falling would have taught these yellow belly pussys something.

[balli]

ballijuana -
what have you done in support of helping the current hemp cause?

I guess I've watched a few documentary's and made a handful of posts here on ST extolling the virtues of omega 3 derived from hemp oil, but admittedly I'm not an activist, so mainly I've done nothing for hemp other than smoke the shit out of it's female counterpart.

Is that you pictured?
No. I found it on the internets. I was a lowly hired hand for an indoor grow back in 2004 though. I guess that helped the hemp cause.

[Blake]

Private establishments. Dont want smoke on your clothes, in your healthy, sanctimonious lungs? Dont go to that bar, nancy boy. Simple.

When there was no smoking ban in other public places such as grocery stores, were you also saying "Private establishments. Dont want smoke on your clothes, in your healthy, sanctimonious lungs? Don't go to H-E-B. Grow your own crops and milk your own cow, nancy boy. simple."

[Blake]

Fair enough. Again, I equate it more with a seat belt or helmet law. I can see why it pisses people off, but ultimately I'm sold on the benefits.

fyi, probably more the helmet law than the seat belt law...

I've talked to EMT guys that have said that there are plenty of times during initial accidents that unbuckled passengers have flown through the windshield hitting other cars passing by causing second or third accidents.

/sidebar

[BacktoBasics]

When there was no smoking ban in other public places such as grocery stores, were you also saying "Private establishments. Dont want smoke on your clothes, in your healthy, sanctimonious lungs? Don't go to H-E-B. Grow your own crops and milk your own cow, nancy boy. simple."Right. I won't deny that. What I'm saying at this point is there should be compromise here. Most are willing to understand even advocate the ban in a large portion of public areas but to ban it from adult oriented business that center around its social use afterhours is too much.

[Blake]

Right. I won't deny that. What I'm saying at this point is there should be compromise here. Most are willing to understand even advocate the ban in a large portion of public areas but to ban it from adult oriented business that center around its social use afterhours is too much.

True or false, second hand smoke is hazardous to your health.

2nd hand bullets are probably hazardous to your health too......Thank goodness some time around the late 1800s our government stepped in and decided to outlaw guys walking into saloons with six shooters on their holsters

I know.......it sucks that those gun toters had their rights stepped on.......private establishments.......yada yada

[BacktoBasics]

True or false, second hand smoke is hazardous to your health.

2nd hand bullets are probably hazardous to your health too......Thank goodness some time around the late 1800s our government stepped in and decided to outlaw guys walking into saloons with six shooters on their holsters

I know.......it sucks that those gun toters had their rights stepped on.......private establishments.......yada yadaSo you're unfamilar with concealed handgun laws. You must also not be familar with most business owners having the right to establish firearm laws within their own property.

I can still walk around with a six shooter in my holster it just needs to remain concealed up to the point where the sign on the storefront specifically says no guns.

[DarkReign]

When there was no smoking ban in other public places such as grocery stores, were you also saying "Private establishments. Dont want smoke on your clothes, in your healthy, sanctimonious lungs? Don't go to H-E-B. Grow your own crops and milk your own cow, nancy boy. simple."

Terrible analogy. Do you have to be an adult to enter HEB? Are you carded at the door?

Does HEB serve alcohol?

Try again. Look, you dont want to be in an adult establishment, thats fine. Dont.

Or even better, how about you, the vast majority who dont smoke, start your own bars that are non-smoking?

Why cant you do that? Why must every bar be non-smoking? If youre the "vast majority", wouldnt smoking bars be the minority?

Explain that logic.

[BacktoBasics]

The porn shop to me seems to be the closest reasonable analogy. If you don't like gay porn in the adult only porn shop then don't walk in but don't expect the business to remove all gay hardcore porn because you simply don't like it and want to purchase your regular straight porn in the comfort of a gayfree environment.

[Spurminator]

I hate how I have to smell other people's shit when I go into a public restroom to take a leak. My piss doesn't smell, why should I be bombarded with the stench of feces? Not only does it smell bad, it's potentially toxic... I mean, essentially, microscopic particles of someone else's shit are entering my lungs. Why can't they take a crap at home?

I propose mandating urinal-only restrooms for men.

[DarkReign]

True or false, second hand smoke is hazardous to your health.

2nd hand bullets are probably hazardous to your health too......Thank goodness some time around the late 1800s our government stepped in and decided to outlaw guys walking into saloons with six shooters on their holsters

I know.......it sucks that those gun toters had their rights stepped on.......private establishments.......yada yada

The infinitesimally small amount of time you spend in a bar where there is smoke will not lead to cancer.

Unless you work in a smoking establishment or you live with a smoker, you have ZERO chance of contracting cancer due to second hand smoke.

Is it your life's work to perpetuate lies? Or just fears? Do you make your kids wear helmets on their bikes, too?

When did this country (maybe this world) get so damn pussified? What the fuck are you so afraid of that you would want to legislate against an entire portion of population for?

Obviously the "second hand smoke causes cancer" bullshit isnt a reason. Is it because it makes your clothes smell like shit?

DONT GO! Start your own non-smoking bar. Youre the majority, you should do real well, right? Because everyone that doesnt smoke hates it just as much as you, right?

I think today's American is being influenced by special interest groups and start regurgitating the propoganda spewed in our media and try to pass it off as cold hard fact.

Like secondhand smoke. Sure, you might get cancer, and it may even increase the likelihood. But thats only for those who a) work in heavy smoking establishment (bartenders, waitresses at bars...no, not the lady who works the smoking section every now and then at Chilis) or b) lives with a smoker.

If you go to a bar every weekend and spend inordinate amounts of time there, that just isnt enough. Sorry to pull the plug on your alarmism.

Youre being coddled and you dont mind it. The people who finance these initiatives to ban smoking arent people like you, Blake. Theyre insurance companies who dont like the medical bills associated with it. Their first step is banning it in public places. Second is in your car with a minor. third will be in your own home with minors. Fourth will be outright banning.

How others choose to live their lives is none of your damn business. Cancer in this country has less to do with smoking than it does with what we stuff in our fat, uneducated faces. Its the food we eat approved by our Food and Drug Administration that really hurts our health, but I dont see legislation being passed in the best interests of the American people on that front.

All the Kraft Cheese Slices, non-organic feed used for the beef industry, mass disease associated with high concentration cattle ranches, inbreeding, chemical stimulants and steroids, the insecticides and mass storage of mainland food is what causes cancer in this country.

Secondhand smoke and the effects it has on nonsmokers is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay down the list as to be considered alarmist at best, negligible at worst (again, outside the criteria I mentioned earlier).

Why dont you and your friends go trumpet that cause, huh?

Oh, thats right. They dont advertise that on television where all the mindless drones can get together and come up with a proper groupthink that can be applied to the rest of society not ignorant and alarmist enough to believe the propoganda. Thosee who dont live their lives fearing every decision and input of energy or toxin as the end all be all of their existence obviously cant coexist with those who do.

Because those who live a more healthy lifestyle couldnt possibly fathom or understand those who choose not to. Something must be done about that, I am sure. Call the government.

Nannystaters and the people who support them can go right to fucking hell, you worthless bags of flesh equipped with only an absorbed opinion. Your only advantage is that you are now the majority.

Thank your public school system. Maybe theyll make a PSA about our lack of education in this country so you drones can get in a tizzy about that, too. Oh wait, thats counterproductive to big government and capitalizing corporations, dont hold your breath. Or just smoke, because youre going to die of cancer anyway.

[DarkReign]

To be clear...

Ban smoking in establishments that dont require you to be an adult to be in attendance.

I completely understand that.

But when I get IDed at the door to enter, I expect others to be adults as well. Who knew how far off that assumption could have been? Im surrounded by adult-children crying about the way their clothes smell like a little girl who just skinned her knee, trying to pass of their concern as faux-healthy living.

Start your won damn bars!

Youre the majority, right? You should win that war, right? What the fuck do you care what other bars do?

[Blake]

So you're unfamilar with concealed handgun laws. You must also not be familar with most business owners having the right to establish firearm laws within their own property.

I can still walk around with a six shooter in my holster it just needs to remain concealed up to the point where the sign on the storefront specifically says no guns.

right, concealed. You can't walk in 3 Amigos style.

Not the best analogy I have in my arsenal of bad analogies, but the point is that this is one of those things that government needs to step in and make a law about.

[Blake]

Terrible analogy. Do you have to be an adult to enter HEB? Are you carded at the door?

Does HEB serve alcohol?

Try again. Look, you dont want to be in an adult establishment, thats fine. Dont.

Or even better, how about you, the vast majority who dont smoke, start your own bars that are non-smoking?

Why cant you do that? Why must every bar be non-smoking? If youre the "vast majority", wouldnt smoking bars be the minority?

Explain that logic.

Explain the logic that says that alcohol = cigarrettes.

Better yet, how about the vast majority of us who don't smoke start laws against smoking inside a building in the public domain.

[BacktoBasics]

Explain the logic that says that alcohol = cigarrettes.

Better yet, how about the vast majority of us who don't smoke start laws against smoking inside a building in the public domain.We aren't suggesting that we lift the bans on a building in the public domain. The point about the alcohol is that its an legal age establishment only. When its adults only then you as an adult have the beatiful luxury by law to choose for yourself what you want to be exposed to.

This does not and should not extend to choose what other grown adults of age can choose to do.

You have no right to decide for me. This is why we are all in agreement about the banning of smoking in public areas where minors may not have a choice of exposure.

Again you have no right to choose for me and no right to decide for yourself what a business owner should or shouldn't do at his adults only establishment. Smoking is legal. Its his legal private property open to adults only who can again legally choose to not enter.

Again you have no right to decide for me or any other adult who enters the private property thats open to the public.

That private property thats open to the public affects only the adults of age that choose to enter and no one else.

Stop trying to control other people.

Do you think I should be able to tell you to not eat your burger? NO. Its your choice and the choice of the people who decide to eat it.

[Blake]

The infinitesimally small amount of time you spend in a bar where there is smoke will not lead to cancer.

Unless you work in a smoking establishment or you live with a smoker, you have ZERO chance of contracting cancer due to second hand smoke.

What if I want to work at a bar.

I know I know.......if I don't like it then I go can go work somewhere else.

I bet they told that to non smoking employees back in the 50s 60s and 70s. That had to absolutely suck.


Is it your life's work to perpetuate lies? Or just fears? Do you make your kids wear helmets on their bikes, too?

Lies? what truths do you need about secondhand smoke?

Is the American Lung Association an ok source to quote?


Secondhand smoke, also know as environmental tobacco smoke (ETS), is a mixture of the smoke given off by the burning end of a cigarette, pipe or cigar and the smoke exhaled from the lungs of smokers. It is involuntarily inhaled by nonsmokers, lingers in the air hours after cigarettes have been extinguished and can cause or exacerbate a wide range of adverse health effects, including cancer, respiratory infections, and asthma.1

Secondhand smoke has been classified by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) as a known cause of cancer in humans (Group A carcinogen).2

http://www.lungusa.org/site/c.dvLUK9O0E/b.35422/





When did this country (maybe this world) get so damn pussified? What the fuck are you so afraid of that you would want to legislate against an entire portion of population for?

I'm not really afraid of death per se, as much as I don't really want to die earlier than I need to.


Obviously the "second hand smoke causes cancer" bullshit isnt a reason. Is it because it makes your clothes smell like shit?

It's both.


DONT GO! Start your own non-smoking bar. Youre the majority, you should do real well, right? Because everyone that doesnt smoke hates it just as much as you, right?

So pretty much every place that I want to go to, I just need to start my own non-smoking


I think today's American is being influenced by special interest groups and start regurgitating the propoganda spewed in our media and try to pass it off as cold hard fact.

I honestly don't know anyone that thinks second hand smoke is ok.


Like secondhand smoke. Sure, you [I]might get cancer, and it may even increase the likelihood. But thats only for those who a) work in heavy smoking establishment (bartenders, waitresses at bars...no, not the lady who works the smoking section every now and then at Chilis) or b) lives with a smoker.

or for the person with allergies that flares up with one hint of that crap.

I know I know.......that person should just not go out anywhere.


Youre being coddled and you dont mind it. The people who finance these initiatives to ban smoking arent people like you, Blake. Theyre insurance companies who dont like the medical bills associated with it. Their first step is banning it in public places. Second is in your car with a minor. third will be in your own home with minors. Fourth will be outright banning.

pffft. I don't know who is behind these initiatives, but if I could, I would give them a pat on the back for their efforts.


How others choose to live their lives is none of your damn business.

....unlesss it infringes on how I'd like to live my life. My non-smoking affects nobody else directly.


Cancer in this country has less to do with smoking than it does with what we stuff in our fat, uneducated faces. Its the food we eat approved by our Food and Drug Administration that really hurts our health, but I dont see legislation being passed in the best interests of the American people on that front.

Probably because I don't have to inhale someone else's second hand Big Mac when I want to go shoot some pool.


All the Kraft Cheese Slices, non-organic feed used for the beef industry, mass disease associated with high concentration cattle ranches, inbreeding, chemical stimulants and steroids, the insecticides and mass storage of mainland food is what causes cancer in this country.

That's absoultely the first time I have ever heard that cheese causes lung cancer.


Secondhand smoke and the effects it has on nonsmokers is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay down the list as to be considered alarmist at best, negligible at worst (again, outside the criteria I mentioned earlier).

Why dont you and your friends go trumpet that cause, huh?

Oh, thats right. They dont advertise that on television where all the mindless drones can get together and come up with a proper groupthink that can be applied to the rest of society not ignorant and alarmist enough to believe the propoganda. Thosee who dont live their lives fearing every decision and input of energy or toxin as the end all be all of their existence obviously cant coexist with those who do.

Because those who live a more healthy lifestyle couldnt possibly fathom or understand those who choose not to. Something must be done about that, I am sure. Call the government.

Nannystaters and the people who support them can go right to fucking hell, you worthless bags of flesh equipped with only an absorbed opinion. Your only advantage is that you are now the majority.

Thank your public school system. Maybe theyll make a PSA about our lack of education in this country so you drones can get in a tizzy about that, too. Oh wait, thats counterproductive to big government and capitalizing corporations, dont hold your breath. Or just smoke, because youre going to die of cancer anyway.

Right, because you know more than the public schools, the government and the American Lung Association.

who to believe.......

[BacktoBasics]

There is no difference between me telling you that you can't eat a fat fucking burger and you telling me that we should outlaw smoking in an adults only bar.

Why?

Because you have the choice on both. You have the choice to eat or not the burger and you have the choice to enter or not enter the bar.

You cannot bend the rules to suit your preference. You cannot make someone run their business differently because you have an opinion. You should only be legally able to chose to not enter.

The bar owner reserves the right to throw you out for any reason and no reason just as much as McDonalds has the right to serve you for any reason and no reason. Just as easily as you can choose for yourself.

Something being gross to you shouldn't justify you wanting to make choices for them. Especially in an adults only establishment.

Why are you people such advocates of having your choices stripped from you. This is what I really don't get. You people don't want others to choose your religion, your meals, your vehicles why should you feel the need to play god on one but not the other?

[Blake]

We aren't suggesting that we lift the bans on a building in the public domain. The point about the alcohol is that its an legal age establishment only. When its adults only then you as an adult have the beatiful luxury by law to choose for yourself what you want to be exposed to.

This does not and should not extend to choose what other grown adults of age can choose to do.

so, smoking in a rated R movie should be allowed?


You have no right to decide for me. This is why we are all in agreement about the banning of smoking in public areas where minors may not have a choice of exposure.

Again you have no right to choose for me and no right to decide for yourself what a business owner should or shouldn't do at his adults only establishment. Smoking is legal. Its his legal private property open to adults only who can again legally choose to not enter.

When I step into a pool hall/bar/dance hall, you just decided for me that I am going to inhale smoke whether I want to or not.



Again you have no right to decide for me or any other adult who enters the private property thats open to the public.

That private property thats open to the public affects only the adults of age that choose to enter and no one else.

Stop trying to control other people.

Do you think I should be able to tell you to not eat your burger? NO. Its your choice and the choice of the people who decide to eat it.

What kids under the age of 18 do you know that go to work every day. If a business owner decides that he wants to make the work environment a smoking one, then by your argument he should have that right.

[BacktoBasics]

How anyone can say this is beyond me.


What if I want to work at a bar.

I know I know.......if I don't like it then I go can go work somewhere else.

WTF seriously. Why can't you appreciate your ability to choose. How in the fuck can you complain about having the ability of choice. You don't like one thing get another. Fuck is so bad about that.

Little Timmy doesn't like baseball but dammit if little Timmy is stark raving made about not being picked to play baseball.

Dude you have a choice exercise it instead of trying to fuck with other peoples lives because its not the way you want. Stop being a fucking spoiled little brat and be an adult and appreciate your ability to not have to deal with something you don't like.

I want to know right fucking now

WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH USING YOUR ABILITY TO MAKE YOUR OWN CHOICE WHEN YOU DON'T LIKE SOMETHING.

I also want to know why you think you can play god with other people because of your OPINION of what should and shouldn't be made available for an adult to choose. No one's talking about an 8 year old or toddler or even a 16 year old. Why can you push your belief onto another adult to the point of controlling their ability to exercise their constitutional right to make their own choices when it regards being around a legal product? why why why why why why do you think you can fucking control other grown adults.

[Dude]

The problem with smoke is it doesn't stay in one area. So you can't compare it to drinking,porn,masturbating,praying to Satan...all those can be kept with in your parameter.

But smoke travels its an odor. If I decide to suck on my girlfriends ear and your in the next booth trying to eat dinner as long as you don't hear me it shouldn't bother you. But if i decide to eat her out and she hasn't had a bath in over a week and the smell of rotten pussy starts to float over to your table as you and your family try to eat seafood?
Then i could see how there is a problem. Just like someone was to go to a public bar and decide to burn the leaves from his front lawn. How long would it take before that person gets tossed out the bar, and even by smokers. Smoke is a form of fire and people shouldn't have to breath it in.

The bottom line people have to eat, they don't have to smoke. So you smokers out there are really violating the rights of others, unless you was born with a cigarette in your mouth then I could see how you can't help it.

And yes I am a smoker, so save all your non smoker smack for the next guy.

[leemajors]

well, smokers have a choice now. if you choose to smoke, you go outside. :smokin

[Blake]

There is no difference between me telling you that you can't eat a fat fucking burger and you telling me that we should outlaw smoking in an adults only bar.

Why?

Because you have the choice on both. You have the choice to eat or not the burger and you have the choice to enter or not enter the bar.

Huh? Big difference.

If I want a drink at a bar, I have to take into account the smoke.......which last I checked, still has nothing to do with each other.


You cannot bend the rules to suit your preference. You cannot make someone run their business differently because you have an opinion. You should only be legally able to chose to not enter.

then those same rules should apply to every facet of the public domain. Why are you holding children's health in higher regards to adult's?


The bar owner reserves the right to throw you out for any reason and no reason just as much as McDonalds has the right to serve you for any reason and no reason. Just as easily as you can choose for yourself.

Something being gross to you shouldn't justify you wanting to make choices for them. Especially in an adults only establishment.

Why are you people such advocates of having your choices stripped from you. This is what I really don't get. You people don't want others to choose your religion, your meals, your vehicles why should you feel the need to play god on one but not the other?

Is it a right to infringe on someone else's well being?

Odd that you make this statement yet you are ok with smoking bans in general.

[BacktoBasics]

so, smoking in a rated R movie should be allowed?

If the private business owner wants to. Yes. You don't own the place. If its 18 and up and the entire theatre is completely removed from minors. YES. If you're the majority then there would be no shortage of smoke free theatres. There were some restaurants even when smoking was widely accepted that would say...

"sorry sir you'll have to put that out this is a non-smoking ______".

Again why do you think you can control other peoples private property thats opened up only to of age adults who legally can choose to not enter.



When I step into a pool hall/bar/dance hall, you just decided for me that I am going to inhale smoke whether I want to or not.

Yes if its adults only. No minors allowed. Then you can choose to not enter. Guess what pal you have rights. Choose to go somewhere else. Why can't you choose. Why are you incapable of letting someone else run their business as they see fit?

Why can't you choose for yourself.

I don't like the food here lets eat somewhere else next time. WAS THAT SO HARD. DID YOU HAVE TO GO TO THE BACK AND DEMAND A NEW CHEF OR DIFFERENT DISHES?




What kids under the age of 18 do you know that go to work every day. If a business owner decides that he wants to make the work environment a smoking one, then by your argument he should have that right.

Not if minor enters the establishment. If he runs a printing business and puts a sign up that says "adults only no minors permited" then he can make it a smoking environment. If its a place thats fully open to minors and a minor could be exposed then "no smoking". How hard is that for you to understand.

You as a fucking adult can make the choice. If you don't like it then find another place to do business. FREE FUCKING WILL. Stop trying to make it the way you want it. Its not up to you. It not your property. When its your property then you make the rules.





Its simple if someone is exposed that has no choice then it should fall under the no-smoking ban. If the people who are exposed have CHOOSEN to be exposed then you have no leg to stand on.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Is the American Lung Association an ok source to quote?




No.

[ploto]

I think a lot of these comparisons are way off. They are not saying you can not drink in a bar, and that is what a bar is for. Most people in bars don't even seem to smoke to me. In Dallas, I believe establishments have to earn 15% of their revenue from selling tobacco porducts to be exempt from the smoking ban.

[BacktoBasics]

Huh? Big difference.

If I want a drink at a bar, I have to take into account the smoke.......which last I checked, still has nothing to do with each other.

Yes because you choose to enter the bar. Go drink at a non-smoking bar. You have no right to play god and decide the rules for the bar owner. You don't like his policy then go fuck yourself. You don't like that he only serves Budweiser then too fucking bad. You can't make him serve Miller. You can only choose to leave and choose to never return. You aren't god.



then those same rules should apply to every facet of the public domain. Why are you holding children's health in higher regards to adult's?

Because children often do not have the choice. Nothing more plain and simple than that. When the ability to choose is removed the ability to allow smoking is removed.



Is it a right to infringe on someone else's well being?

Odd that you make this statement yet you are ok with smoking bans in general.



I'm not infringing on someone else well-being if they choose to expose themselves to it. They're choosing to infringe on their own well being. HOW FUCKING HARD IS THAT FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND. No one forced anything. There's the fucking door if you don't like it.

Your infringing on the business owners right to run his business as he sees fit. You for the millionth time CAN FUCKING LEAVE ANYTIME YOU WANT. WOW A FUCKING CHOICE. WHY CAN'T YOU MAKE A CHOICE.

[Salad Tosser]

What I can't stand is when I have to go to the mens room to take a shit. WTF? Why can't i just take a shit right there at the bar? I have my own bucket! I hate people telling me where I can and can't take a shit! I have rights also i should be able to take a shit any where at anytime and you have to let me and you have to smell it! this is America!! :tu

[Blake]

WTF seriously. Why can't you appreciate your ability to choose. How in the fuck can you complain about having the ability of choice. You don't like one thing get another. Fuck is so bad about that.

Little Timmy doesn't like baseball but dammit if little Timmy is stark raving made about not being picked to play baseball.

Dude you have a choice exercise it instead of trying to fuck with other peoples lives because its not the way you want. Stop being a fucking spoiled little brat and be an adult and appreciate your ability to not have to deal with something you don't like.

I want to know right fucking now

WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH USING YOUR ABILITY TO MAKE YOUR OWN CHOICE WHEN YOU DON'T LIKE SOMETHING.

I also want to know why you think you can play god with other people because of your OPINION of what should and shouldn't be made available for an adult to choose. No one's talking about an 8 year old or toddler or even a 16 year old. Why can you push your belief onto another adult to the point of controlling their ability to exercise their constitutional right to make their own choices when it regards being around a legal product? why why why why why why do you think you can fucking control other grown adults.

what part of this don't you get?

Nobody is telling anyone else to stop smoking. Just don't smoke around me in a confined space.

seriously, what is the big f-ing deal of walking 15 feet to go outside and light up. You aren't arguing anyone's rights here.......you are arguing for their convenience.

[Salad Tosser]

Another thing I play the accordion. And I should be able to play my accordion anywhere i please. I am tired of people at the bars,the church, and the restaurants, and movies telling me to stop playing my Accordion. We live in America I have rights also!!

You see how the smokers sound?

[BacktoBasics]

I'm fucking tired of debating the health implications.

You can choose to expose yourself or you can choose not to. How fucking hard is that?

Why can't you people fucking choose.

I don't like this car. Then don't buy it.

I don't like the food here. Then don't eat it.

I don't like this shirt. Then don't motherfucking buy it.

I don't like working here. Then fucking quit.

I don't like the smell of smoke and its bad for me. Then fucking walk out the door and never come back.

No one is putting you by force into a situation that is immoral, unethical or illegal. You have no right to decide for everyone else what they should choose.

I want to know right fucking now why you think that you can make everyones choice for them because you don't like something that is perfectly legal.

I feel that I've fully addressed the only reasonable situation where you can force your choice over another and thats if the people that could be potentially subject to it have no choice. I'm eliminating smoking from any place where someone doesn't have a choice.

Right fucking now I want to know why you can control another adult from making his own choice which affects only him.

[Blake]

Its simple if someone is exposed that has no choice then it should fall under the no-smoking ban. If the people who are exposed have CHOOSEN to be exposed then you have no leg to stand on.

hell, it's my restaurant. Why the hell should the government determine how hot I need to keep my foods at.

If the people eat my cancer laden food, then they have CHOSEN to be exposed and have no leg to stand on

[BacktoBasics]

Another thing I play the accordion. And I should be able to play my accordion anywhere i please. I am tired of people at the bars,the church, and the restaurants, and movies telling me to stop playing my Accordion. We live in America I have rights also!!

You see how the smokers sound?Not if the business owner asks you to leave his private property. Now if you want to play and the business owner is fine with that then play. I know its a tough concept.

[BacktoBasics]

hell, it's my restaurant. Why the hell should the government determine how hot I need to keep my foods at.

If the people eat my cancer laden food, then they have CHOSEN to be exposed and have no leg to stand on
They didn't know the food had cancer. Serving food that could cause illness isn't a choice its harmful to people who have no control over it.

[Blake]

I want to know right fucking now why you think that you can make everyones choice for them because you don't like something that is perfectly legal.

Right fucking now I want to know why you can control another adult from making his own choice which affects only him.

see, you've got it backwards. I want to go shoot pool, but I can't because the smoker has made my choice for me.

Nobody is telling that smoker not to shoot pool or not to smoke. Just smoke out the f-u-c-k side so that I can play too.

[BacktoBasics]

what part of this don't you get?

Nobody is telling anyone else to stop smoking. Just don't smoke around me in a confined space.

seriously, what is the big f-ing deal of walking 15 feet to go outside and light up. You aren't arguing anyone's rights here.......you are arguing for their convenience.Because its not your fucking place to make the rules. Don't come into my fucking home and tell me I can't smoke in it.

If the business owner wants to allow it you should shut the fuck up and leave if you don't like.

[Last Comic Standing]

I'm fucking tired of debating the health implications.

You can choose to expose yourself or you can choose not to. How fucking hard is that?

Why can't you people fucking choose.

I don't like this car. Then don't buy it.

I don't like the food here. Then don't eat it.

I don't like this shirt. Then don't motherfucking buy it.

I don't like working here. Then fucking quit.

I don't like the smell of smoke and its bad for me. Then fucking walk out the door and never come back.

No one is putting you by force into a situation that is immoral, unethical or illegal. You have no right to decide for everyone else what they should choose.

I want to know right fucking now why you think that you can make everyones choice for them because you don't like something that is perfectly legal.

I feel that I've fully addressed the only reasonable situation where you can force your choice over another and thats if the people that could be potentially subject to it have no choice. I'm eliminating smoking from any place where someone doesn't have a choice.

Right fucking now I want to know why you can control another adult from making his own choice which affects only him.


This coming from a man that won't give a refund on a RV if it smells like smoke? :lmao



I'm so sure if your next door neighbor decides to raise hogs after about a month of waking up to pig shit every morning you would be the first to bitch.

[BacktoBasics]

Don't come into my fucking home and tell me how to live my life when what I do isn't forced upon you.

When I force you to do something then you have an argument. As long as you can choose then shut the fuck up and choose to leave.

You can't argue preference as a right to control me unless what I do is forced upon you.

Stop trying to change something that you can easily remove yourself from.

[Blake]

Because its not your fucking place to make the rules. Don't come into my fucking home and tell me I can't smoke in it.

If the business owner wants to allow it you should shut the fuck up and leave if you don't like.

dumb post.

There are absolutely no rules regarding what goes on in your home.

There are a lot of reasons why there are laws regarding public places: so business owners can't do whatever the hell they want in their own business.

[BacktoBasics]

This coming from a man that won't give a refund on a RV if it smells like smoke? :lmao





I'm so sure if your next door neighbor decides to raise hogs after about a month of waking up to pig shit every morning you would be the first to bitch.At that points I'm forced to smell the pig shit. Its not a choice and it infringes on my property. Now if his house smells like pig shit because he had pigs inside I don't have a right to force him to wash the walls.

Pigs don't smell much anyway. You should have said cats because cats stink like shit. I've been houses like that its aweful but I don't try to make laws about how the inside of a house smells now do I.

I just don't fucking go back genius.

[mouse]

Funny they let you smoke in Vegas casinos I don't see anyone complaining.

At the same time i believe the Goverment and city leaders need to stay out of a persons bussiness. They have a sign thats reads this is a non smoking place for a reason. If you don't like smoke go eat at Denny's but leave Joe's Diner alone.

Telling people not to smoke is like telling people to take down Christmas decorations.... Oh shit!... they do that already.

[SpursWoman]

Funny ... since I quit smoking I very rarely, if ever, go to bars because the medication I used to help me quit still makes me viciously nauseated by cigarette smoke. I don't really mind that because I pretty much outgrew hanging out at bars.

But we ended up having to leave Retama Park early the last time I was there a couple of weeks ago because there was NOWHERE to go to avoid the smoke ... which was so thick you could barely breathe, inside an out.

That sucked. :(

But I know ... I should just open my own Retama Park. :lol

[Blake]

I'm so sure if your next door neighbor decides to raise hogs after about a month of waking up to pig shit every morning you would be the first to bitch.

If you don't like it then move.

[BacktoBasics]

dumb post.

There are absolutely no rules regarding what goes on in your home.

There are a lot of reasons why there are laws regarding public places: so business owners can't do whatever the hell they want in their own business.
There are just as many rules in the home as there are a business. Its still private property and the business owner has decided to make it open to the public. You fail to understand this. Its not public property its private property opened to the public. They can do whatever they want in their own private business property as long as its within the law just like a home and that should include smoking in it if they so desire so long as if you're open to the public the smoking is only permited when an adult can choose to or not choose to be exposed. Nothing is forced.

It that fucking simple. Its just as much private property as owning a home.

There is a difference between a restaurant that allows minors who can't choose to be exposed to smoke and a bar who allows only adults who can choose to not enter.

[Blake]

Funny ... since I quit smoking I very rarely, if ever, go to bars because the medication I used to help me quit still makes me viciously nauseated by cigarette smoke. I don't really mind that because I pretty much outgrew hanging out at bars.

But we ended up having to leave Retama Park early the last time I was there a couple of weeks ago because there was NOWHERE to go to avoid the smoke ... which was so thick you could barely breathe, inside an out.

That sucked. :(

But I know ... I should just open my own Retama Park. :lol

yeah, we were there a few weeks back for 50 cent Friday (which is bull and another thread onto itself) and it was freezing outside.

...but it was either a) freeze ass off outside b) hang out upstairs where it was warm with the smokers c) just not go

but hey, let's not infringe on someone's right to smoke in a building.

[BacktoBasics]

Funny ... since I quit smoking I very rarely, if ever, go to bars because the medication I used to help me quit still makes me viciously nauseated by cigarette smoke. I don't really mind that because I pretty much outgrew hanging out at bars.

But we ended up having to leave Retama Park early the last time I was there a couple of weeks ago because there was NOWHERE to go to avoid the smoke ... which was so thick you could barely breathe, inside an out.

That sucked. :(

But I know ... I should just open my own Retama Park. :lolEven in an open area I think if minors are present I'm willing to listen to a smoke ban.

I even said much earlier in this thread to go ahead and ban smoking on sidewalks if you so desire just don't push laws on private property where it doesn't affect minors who have no choice.

[mouse]

Another thing I hate when i go to a bar and people talk real loud. I should be able to drink in peace. They need to tell people if your going to talk do it outside.

you see a pattern forming here? soon they will outlaw Mullets in public places and then where will Pooh eat?


http://www.mailbling.com/pic07.jpg

[BacktoBasics]

yeah, we were there a few weeks back for 50 cent Friday (which is bull and another thread onto itself) and it was freezing outside.

...but it was either a) freeze ass off outside b) hang out upstairs where it was warm with the smokers c) just not go

but hey, let's not infringe on someone's right to smoke in a building.Read my other post. Wanna ban smoking outside in public then fine I'm willing to listen. If its a private building and adults only then back to letting the business owner decide how he wants to run the business. Kids are allowed in Retama aren't they? Then no smoking. We agree.

[Blake]

There are just as many rules in the home as there are a business.

that are regulated by the government? Not even close, bud.
Last I checked, you don't need a C. of O. or proper permits or routine health dept inspections for residential property


Its still private property and the business owner has decided to make it open to the public. You fail to understand this. Its not public property its private property opened to the public. They can do whatever they want in their own private business property as long as its within the law just like a home and that should include smoking in it if they so desire so long as if you're open to the public the smoking is only permited when an adult can choose to or not choose to be exposed. Nothing is forced.

I still fail to see how this is an age issue for you. If it's nothing more than just a nuisance, then what's the big deal with having kids around it.

Is it or isn't it a health concern?


It that fucking simple. Its just as much private property as owning a home.

No, it's really not. You apparently don't have a clue.


There is a difference between a restaurant that allows minors who can't choose to be exposed to smoke and a bar who allows only adults who can choose to not enter.

round and round.

agree to disagree while sitting at a smoke free bar in the very near future.

[GoGatos.]

you see a pattern forming here?
soon they will outlaw Mullets in public places and then where will Pooh eat?


http://www.mailbling.com/pic07.jpg


:lmao

[Little Smokey]

Kids are allowed in Retama aren't they? Then no smoking.

Fuck you bitch!

[BacktoBasics]

that are regulated by the government? Not even close, bud.
Last I checked, you don't need a C. of O. or proper permits or routine health dept inspections for residential property

I don't know what you want to hear. Owning the business is still private property. Yes it has to run within certain parameters when serving the public. I own two acres and I have to get permits for my septic and well. Doesn't mean its not my private property.


I still fail to see how this is an age issue for you. If it's nothing more than just a nuisance, then what's the big deal with having kids around it.

Is it or isn't it a health concern?

I never once fucking said it wasn't bad for you. Never once. You're really really dumb. Its an age issue because a minor at the age of 4 cannot choose for him/herself to not enter into a restaurant with their parents that allows smoking. We must protect those who cannot choose for themselves and protect the rights of others who are adults to choose freely. Age is associated with the ability to choose. As a minor you often do not have the ability to decide things for yourself. So if an adult chooses to expose himself then so be it you do not have the right to choose for him anymore than you having the right to control the amount alcohol he consumes. You can only control the drunks ability to operate in a fashion that causes destruction to others. You have no right to control 50 adults choosing to walk into a smoke filled bar anymore than you have the right to regulate what they consume and how much. The bar owner does. The bar owner cuts them off and the law is supposed to stop them from driving. You have no right to tell these people that they can't get shit faced drunk and have a sober friend take them home anymore than you can tell them they can't enter a smoke filled bar because its a health concern.

Its not your place to make the decision for them. If you don't want to be around the smoke then don't. You have that ability.





No, it's really not. You apparently don't have a clue.


Its still private property. I can open a restaurant and put a sign up front that says private property do not enter.


round and round.

agree to disagree while sitting at a smoke free bar in the very near future.


again you're wrong. A minor has no choice at the restaurant. He/she is forced there by the parents. They have the right to clean air. The guy who chooses to enter the bar under his own free will has the right only to choose to enter or not.

[Hermey]

What I can't stand is when I have to go to the mens room to take a shit. WTF? Why can't i just take a shit right there at the bar? I have my own bucket! I hate people telling me where I can and can't take a shit! I have rights also i should be able to take a shit any where at anytime and you have to let me and you have to smell it! this is America!! :tu

And i want to be a Dentist but that shit ain't happening cuz!

[Desert Plains]

I have seen first hand what smoking does to babies................


















http://sellingtobigcompanies.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/06/09/uglybaby_2.jpg

[tlongII]

Another thing I hate when i go to a bar and people talk real loud. I should be able to drink in peace. They need to tell people if your going to talk do it outside.

you see a pattern forming here? soon they will outlaw Mullets in public places and then where will Pooh eat?


http://www.mailbling.com/pic07.jpg

Dude, the hair in that pic that needs to be outlawed ain't the mullet! iykwim

[Blake]

I never once fucking said it wasn't bad for you. Never once. You're really really dumb. Its an age issue because a minor at the age of 4 cannot choose for him/herself to not enter into a restaurant with their parents that allows smoking. We must protect those who cannot choose for themselves and protect the rights of others who are adults to choose freely.

there's a very fine line here when you say that adults have the choice where they can work.

Your argument is contradictory when you say it should be outlawed in the workplace, even if there are no minors............that is unless you feel that everyone can equally choose where they want to work.

[johnsmith.]

I am not anti gay or anything but i will say this, those two are the ugliest fuckers I have ever seen in all the ST gtg pics! :lmao

[I am Tom]

I have seen first hand what smoking does to babies................



me too!

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/5169/zakbabyap8.jpg

[Phenomanul]

That's great!!!! I can finally go bowling without losing lung cells. :tu

[I am Tom]

That's great!!!! I can finally go bowling without having to kill cells in my lungs. :tu


I thought you bowlers had balls?

[BacktoBasics]

there's a very fine line here when you say that adults have the choice where they can work.

Your argument is contradictory when you say it should be outlawed in the workplace, even if there are no minors............that is unless you feel that everyone can equally choose where they want to work.I feel that if you don't like the policies of your employment you have the right to quit and seek employment elsewhere.

I also said that if the place of business operates with an open door policy to minors and minors may be present on said property then there should be a smoking ban.

I'm confused as to what is contradictory? People do have the right to choose where they work. Do they not? Perhaps I'm even willing to entertain the idea of smoking being solely allowed in an adults only purely 100% optional social setting. Even though I still think thats overgoverning. I'm willing to understand and compromise.

Make no mistake I thinks its all fundamentally and borderline constitutionally wrong but I fully understand and am an advocate for most of the smoking bans. It simply makes sense to protect the ones who are unable to choose freely for themselves. Its just way to much of an infringement of my rights as an adult consumer and the rights of the private business owner to dictate control over a legal substance in an adults only establishment. Thats what being American is supposed to be about "an adults ability to choose for himself free of government control". This strips the right of choice both for the ones who want to enter and the ones who do not want to enter. As well as the person who owns the establishment. You cannot possibly be an advocate for taking away a right of choice that pertains to the LEGAL use of a drug thats is in no way FORCED on someone. Loud and clear. Its not FORCED on you. You PREFER to not be around it. Go somewhere else that fits the social setting you desire. Don't like rock but like country then go to the country bar. No one forces you to hang out at the rock bar.

[BacktoBasics]

At this point all I'm doing is getting pissed off.

You are trying to turn your PREFERENCE into law. I'm trying to protect our already existing rights of choice for all three parties. The choice to enter. The choice to not enter. The choice to allow grown adults to use a legal substance at their establishment all while not forcing anything on anyone.

[leemajors]

props to B2B for steamrolling this into 9 pages.

[BacktoBasics]

props to B2B for steamrolling this into 9 pages.
I'm like a Kindergarden teacher trying to get a bunch of jackasses to paint within the lines. Its pointless. Some moron always goes and dumps the paint in the fish tank.

[Salad Tosser]

props to B2B for steamrolling this into 9 pages.


The man does possess a certain skill! :tu

[Lackluster]

smoking in bars will be a thing of the past before long.

i can't believe san antonio has been so slow to get on this. austin, dallas (soon i think), corpus and houston are there. reckon we're next.

it's funny how much of a snob you become about cigarette smoke when you quit.

i think an option we could pursue is to enclose smokers off more. like those plexiglass smoke rooms in airports. do they still have those?

[Spurminator]

I'm like a Kindergarden teacher trying to get a bunch of jackasses to paint within the lines. Its pointless. Some moron always goes and dumps the paint in the fish tank.


:lmao

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I'd like to congratulate B2B on his knack for taking a topic and stretching it beyond foreseeable limits. I'd of put the over/under at 3 pages on this bad boy.

[BacktoBasics]

For the most part it was 9 pages of decent debate sans BRHornets. That guys is a fucking waste.

[Blake]

At this point all I'm doing is getting pissed off.

You are trying to turn your PREFERENCE into law. I'm trying to protect our already existing rights of choice for all three parties. The choice to enter. The choice to not enter. The choice to allow grown adults to use a legal substance at their establishment all while not forcing anything on anyone.

hate to tell ya, but smoking bans are coming all over the place whether you disagree or not. Hell, based on what's already illegal, tobacco really has no business being legal either.

But that's besides the point. The point is that you feel people and business owners should have the right to blow around a giant cloud of toxic, poisonous gas in places such as bars, pool halls and night clubs, and that if I don't like poisonous toxic gas, then I should just piss off because it's their constitutional right to blow around toxic, poisonous gas in a public domain.

Makes perfect sense.

and no, I don't feel everyone has the luxury of choosing whatever job they want, but that's a different topic for a different day

[Blake]

For the most part it was 9 pages of decent debate sans BRHornets. That guys is a fucking waste.

son, I tend to agree with you

[Blake]

You PREFER to not be around it. Go somewhere else that fits the social setting you desire. Don't like rock but like country then go to the country bar. No one forces you to hang out at the rock bar.

I like both the rock and the country bars.

Unfortunately my choice has to be neither because both places are filled with smoke.

[BacktoBasics]

But that's besides the point. The point is that you feel people and business owners should have the right to blow around a giant cloud of toxic, poisonous gas in places such as bars, pool halls and night clubs, and that if I don't like poisonous toxic gas, then I should just piss off because it's their constitutional right to blow around toxic, poisonous gas in a public domain.

Makes perfect sense.



Nail on the head friend other than it being a public domain. Its a private domain open for public use for adults only who choose to enter. We aren't talking about city park here. One individual can close its doors to you. Its private whether you want to believe it or not. Its your previlege to be allowed to enter not your right.

I know its not going away and neither is illegal search and seizure and police brutality. Neither is wiretapping and the absurd outlaw of hemp. It will only get worse from here on out. Our elected officials aren't capable of holding up our constitutionally given rights and we as a whole are incapable of fighting for them successfully. Its almost over I get it.

[BacktoBasics]

I like both the rock and the country bars.

Unfortunately my choice has to be neither because both places are filled with smoke.:sadpanda:

[Blake]

Nail on the head friend other than it being a public domain. Its a private domain open for public use for adults only who choose to enter. We aren't talking about city park here. One individual can close its doors to you. Its private whether you want to believe it or not. Its your previlege to be allowed to enter not your right.

I know its not going away and neither is illegal search and seizure and police brutality. Neither is wiretapping and the absurd outlaw of hemp. It will only get worse from here on out. Our elected officials aren't capable of holding up our constitutionally given rights and we as a whole are incapable of fighting for them successfully. Its almost over I get it.

Thing is, the second hand smoke is harmful and potentially cancer causing.

That's pretty much what we are talking about here. It's not a trivial nuisance any more like it was 30 years ago.

Just because it's private property, you can't go inside and punch somebody in the gut.

[Blake]

:sadpanda:

not for long

[BacktoBasics]

Thing is, the second hand smoke is harmful and potentially cancer causing.

That's pretty much what we are talking about here. It's not a trivial nuisance any more like it was 30 years ago.

Just because it's private property, you can't go inside and punch somebody in the gut.Gut punching a stranger is illegal. Now if gut punching a stranger was legal then...

If its a gut punching bar and you know that gut punching sucks balls and gut punching is perfectly legal then you can either enter or not.

Why is this so hard for you. I don't give a shit if its harmful for this application. Lots of stuff is harmful and you have a choice to consume it or not. No one is forcing you to walk in. No one is gut punching you out on the street and telling you its their right.

No one is forcing it on you and no one is forcing you go in and take a gut punch any more then them forcing you to enter and inhale the smoke. Call them stupid call them insane but don't try to change their lives because you aren't into gut punching if gut punching is legal and you're fully warned that it goes on in the establishment.

[BacktoBasics]

There is not one good analogy for the ban of smoking in a private building thats adults only. A building that you aren't required to enter. A building that has no effect on your well being if you choose to not enter.

Stop trying to turn your PREFERENCE into a law you expect everyone to abide by. These people and those bars have zero effect on your life and zero effect on anyone's life that chooses to not enter. If you think its stupid great then choose to refrain. Let the stupid people have their way because guess what they have a right to choose just as much as you do. Your choice shouldn't hold more weight than the next persons. You aren't fucking special.

[BacktoBasics]

I want to know right now how can you get lung cancer from the smoking bar that you don't enter.

[Blake]

Gut punching a stranger is illegal. Now if gut punching a stranger was legal then...

If its a gut punching bar and you know that gut punching sucks balls and gut punching is perfectly legal then you can either enter or not.

Why is this so hard for you. I don't give a shit if its harmful for this application. Lots of stuff is harmful and you have a choice to consume it or not. No one is forcing you to walk in. No one is gut punching you out on the street and telling you its their right.

No one is forcing it on you and no one is forcing you go in and take a gut punch any more then them forcing you to enter and inhale the smoke. Call them stupid call them insane but don't try to change their lives because you aren't into gut punching if gut punching is legal and you're fully warned that it goes on in the establishment.

gut punching is legal?

What's hard to understand that a poisonous toxic gas has no business in public domain. This is isn't about what you think are your constitutional rights as an owner. This is about the health and well being of the public.

It's not your right as a restaurant owner to hang cows up in the kitchen at room temperature. Unfortutantely we have to make a law regarding such a thing because if not, there will be plenty of owners tha won't care if they don't keep their meats at the perfect temperature to avoid bacteria setting in.

Harming other people is inherently wrong, I don't care what the context is.

I know, I know.....if I don't like getting bad beef, I just need to stay away from restaurants.

[Blake]

I want to know right now how can you get lung cancer from the smoking bar that you don't enter.

Who said they want to go into a "smoking bar".

I think I made it clear......I just want to drink and shoot pool.

[BacktoBasics]

Who said they want to go into a "smoking bar".

I think I made it clear......I just want to drink and shoot pool.Then go drink and shoot pool in the bar that says "no smoking". How dense are you. Don't want smoke don't go where it is. The bar smoke can only affect you in the bar. Period.

You can't be affected by the poisonous gases if you don't enter. Its not your right to enter. You aren't required to nor forced to.

You do not have a right to enter its a priveledge not a right.

[Blake]

You do not have a right to enter its a priveledge not a right.

Absolutely wrong. I have every right to enter.

Upon entering, you do not have the right to punch me in the gut.

I'll sue your ass off and have you tossed in a jail where you can have all the cigarettes your tight cheeks can work for.

[Blake]

Then go drink and shoot pool in the bar that says "no smoking". How dense are you. Don't want smoke don't go where it is. The bar smoke can only affect you in the bar. Period.



What pool hall in non smoking?

I know I know..........build my own.

[BacktoBasics]

Your sense of entitlement goes against what the this country was founded on. It doesn't matter that one mans actions can harm you if you choose to be open to the harm. The same is not true if its forced on you but that isn't the case. You don't have a right to dictate how someone runs their business when all they want to do is give the public the ability to choose to use a perfectly legal substance. When it becomes illegal then you have an argument. When smoking in the bar affects little Timmy 6 miles away then you have an argument. Until then all you have thats legal is to choose to move along. Whats happening with the banning of smoking in these bars is wrong. Its illegal and unconstitional and I'm outraged at how some people think its ok to push their preferences on other freewilling americans because they feel like like their opinion is better than the next guy instead of just going to a different establishment.

The key word is force. No one forces it on you. The second most important thing is that it doesn't affect anyone outside of the establishment that chooses to not enter. They have entered at their own risk.


I'll give you the last word if you want it.

I'm requesting that this merri-go-round be locked before my chode explodes.

[BacktoBasics]

Absolutely wrong. I have every right to enter.

Upon entering, you do not have the right to punch me in the gut.

I'll sue your ass off and have you tossed in a jail where you can have all the cigarettes your tight cheeks can work for.
A bar owner can kick you out of his bar for whatever reason he sees fit and if you return its tresspassing. You have no right to return. Its not even debatable. Its a luxury and you want to dictate your rules.

Just like a door guy let in or not let whomever he wants.

[Blake]

tell you what B2B..........when the complete smoking ban comes to San Antonio.......and make no mistake, it's coming.........you take the city to court, challenge the constitutionality of the ban and let me know how it goes for you.

[Blake]

A bar owner can kick you out of his bar for whatever reason he sees fit and if you return its tresspassing. You have no right to return. Its not even debatable. Its a luxury and you want to dictate your rules.

Just like a door guy let in or not let whomever he wants.

why the bar owner kick a non-smoker out?

you're getting off on some kind of tangent that's unrelated to the issue

[BacktoBasics]

I know I know..........build my own.GO DAMMIT I"M GOING TO MELT. YES YOU FUCKING STUPID SELFISH MORONIC FUCKING UNAMERICAN PIECE OF FUCKING SHIT. BUILD YOUR OWN NONSMOKING SHIT FUCK HOLE AND GO THERE. IF YOU DON'T LIKE MAKE YOUR OWN.

OH FUCKING NO FUCK FREE WILL AND FUCK CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS I HAVE A MOTHERFUCKING OPINION AND GOD DAMMIT I'M GOING TO WILL MY FUCKING STUPID UNCONSTITUIONAL BACKASSED FUCKED OPINION ON EVERY FUCKING SINGLE ONE OF YOU BECAUSE MY NAMES BLAKE AND IF I CAN'T PLAY THE WAY I WANT TO FUCKING PLAY AT YOUR POOL THEN I'M GOING TO HAVE THE RULES CHANGED TO ACCOMODATE MY SELFISH SELFABSORD FUCKED UP WAY OF WANTING TO DO THINGS BECAUSE GOD DAMMIT I WANT MY MOTHERFUCKING WAAAAAAAY WAAAAAAHHHHH WAAAAAAHHHHH DO IT THE WAY I WANT IT BECAUSE ITS MY RIGHT TO INVADE YOUR PLACE OF BUSINESS EVEN THOUGH ITS FUCKING PRIVATE PROPERTY.

FUCK YOU YOU FUCKIGN UNAMERICAN PIECE OF GOD DAMN SHIT. FUCKING UP MY COUNTRY WITH YOUR OPINIONATED UNWILLINGNESS TO COMPROMISE AND BE REASONABLE. I FUCKING HATE WHAT PEOPLE LIKE YOU HAVE DONE TO THIS COUNTRY. I HOPE YOU GET SECOND HAND SMOKE LUNG CANCER AND DIE AFTER LIVING WITH ONE OF THOSE VIBRATING VOICE FUCKING THINGS FOR 5 YEARS OF FUCKING HELL.


FUCK

[BacktoBasics]

why the bar owner kick a non-smoker out?

you're getting off on some kind of tangent that's unrelated to the issueTHE FUCKING POINT IS THAT YOU DON'T HAVE A RIGHT TO BE AN OCCUPANT. THEY CAN LEGALLY REMOVE YOU. ITS NOT YOUR RIGHT TO ENTER A PRIVATE PLACE OF BUSINESS. ITS YOUR FUCKING LUXURY AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE SAID PLACE OF BUSINESS THEN LEAVE.