Tony Parker needs start playing defense. Any defense.

[Ice009]

I'm calling Tony out. I don't know if it's because he's injured and still isn't in form, but his defense has been non existent. I could give him a pass for the Dallas game because he just came back but his D tonight and in other games has been pretty bad at times.

George Hill I thought did really well tonight on D.

I wanted him on the court late in the 4th quarter along with Mason, but I guess Pop loves Finley too much for that.

Another thing is that Pop needs to recognize when Michael stinks and get him off the fucking court.

Tonight his DEFENSE and OFFENSE were bad yet he still gets a ton of 4th quarter minutes. Mason only comes out with about a minute left in the 4th. What kind of shit is that?

Finley is not going to keep that up all season. Give MASON the freaking court time you fool Pop. Finley has got to learn to play in limited minutes. Don't get me wrong, but Michael has played very well of late, but if Pop keeps riding him like he is now then Mason won't have gotten enough court time in the regular season to integrate himself and Michael will be worn out by the time the playoffs roll around. Not a good scenario for either player or the team. Hill needs more minutes too. Especially when he is doing good on defense. I think we had some of out biggest leads of the night with Hill out there tonight rather that TP, but I guess that also had a bit to do with Paul on the bench at those times.

Manu has got to cut out those fucking idiotic turnovers. He had some really bad passes that lead to turnovers late in the 4th quarter tonight. THAT IS ENOUGH OF THAT MANU.

[jrmp317]

Mason looks terrible right now, I would have gone with Hill, TP, Manu, Duncan, and KT in the 4th

[G-Nob]

And whats the deal with Tony barkin back at Pop? He needs to respect his daddy.

[naico]

Agreed that Hill should have gotten more minutes. He was actually one of the most composed players on the court. Played very smart, good D, quality passing, good decision making. Lookin' @ Finley brickin' up shots and playing poor defense is frustrating. The guy needs to be more consistent.

[Kori Ellis]

The Spurs didn't lose tonight because of defense.

They lost because they went 0-9 from 3 in the fourth quarter and couldn't put the ball in the basket.

That said, I would have played Hill with Tony tonight and sat the Finley/Mason combo.

[Ice009]

The Spurs didn't lose tonight because of defense.

They lost because they went 0-9 from 3 in the fourth quarter and couldn't put the ball in the basket.

That said, I would have played Hill with Tony tonight and sat the Finley/Mason combo.

Maybe that would have been better Kori.

I just thought we seemed to have our biggest leads out there when Hill was on the court.

Maybe we could have attacked more with Tony and Hill rather than Michael bricking shots.

[TDMVPDPOY]

exposed

[lefty]

TP's lack of focus was obvious tonight.

- 1 play where Duncan had to cover for him, by going up on CP3 (on a halfcourt play, and it wasn't even a pick-n-roll)

- the Rasual player hustle play: TP grabs the offensive board, doesn't pay any attention, and Butler just slaps the ball out of his hands

- a bad turnover right after a CP3 miss towards the end of the game (Pop was pissed of at TP)

[timvp]

Bonner goes 0-1234124. Duncan dries up from the field. Ginobili turns it over like it's going out of style. Finley and Mason do nothing. Yet it's Parker's fault.

Gotta love Spurs fans.

[lefty]

Bonner goes 0-1234124. Duncan dries up from the field. Ginobili turns it over like it's going out of style. Finley and Mason do nothing. Yet it's Parker's fault.

Gotta love Spurs fans.

:lmao

[td4mvp21]

It's Chris Paul. I haven't seen a team or player defense him well except the Celtics.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Tony is just waiting to be traded to the Lakers. He's gone Hollywood on us folks.

[Kori Ellis]

Tony is just waiting to be traded to the Lakers. He's gone Hollywood on us folks.

:lol


And if this is a thread to complain about everything, I'd like to say Hornets fans are much better than Spurs fans. They boo and applaud at all the right times, reacting to what's actually going on during the game. If this was in the AT&T Center, Spurs fans would have been cheering David West's 3's because they were distracted by the Coyote doing the 'steal the woman's purse' trick on the sidelines.

[jrmp317]

:lol


And if this is a thread to complain about everything, I'd like to say Hornets fans are much better than Spurs fans. They boo and applaud at all the right times, reacting to what's actually going on during the game. If this was in the AT&T Center, Spurs fans would have been cheering David West's 3's because they were distracted by the Coyote doing the 'steal the woman's purse' trick on the sidelines.

it's funny cause it's true :lol

[Oh, Gee!!]

:lol


And if this is a thread to complain about everything, I'd like to say Hornets fans are much better than Spurs fans. They boo and applaud at all the right times, reacting to what's actually going on during the game. If this was in the AT&T Center, Spurs fans would have been cheering David West's 3's because they were distracted by the Coyote doing the 'steal the woman's purse' trick on the sidelines.

or we'd be sitting sitting down the entire 4th quarter. we fans suck sometimes.

[pawe]

Send them Spurs here in Phoenix. SA crowd suck. :lol :toast

[T Park]

Bonner goes 0-1234124. Duncan dries up from the field. Ginobili turns it over like it's going out of style. Finley and Mason do nothing. Yet it's Parker's fault.

Gotta love Spurs fans.

Death, taxes, Tony Parker's the fall guy.

[kace]

Bonner goes 0-1234124. Duncan dries up from the field. Ginobili turns it over like it's going out of style. Finley and Mason do nothing. Yet it's Parker's fault.

Gotta love Spurs fans.

+ 1

but i love how the OP tries to bring it in a false "game thoughts" in his post when his title's thread and evrything he post is basically to bash parker. LAME. Hate isn't rational. no need to argue i guess.

[Ice009]

Bonner goes 0-1234124. Duncan dries up from the field. Ginobili turns it over like it's going out of style. Finley and Mason do nothing. Yet it's Parker's fault.

Gotta love Spurs fans.


You can't tell me TP is not to blame at all? And where exaclty did I say it is all Parker's fault? I've just had a problem with his defense that I felt needed to be pointed out.

What do you have to say about his porous defense of late?

I also did mention Manu's turnovers and Finley's poor game. What exactly are you trying to point out here?

Also, I don't care that Bonner missed a lot of shots. He played a lot harder than Parker on the defensive end. I'll give him props just for that.

[Ice009]

It's Chris Paul. I haven't seen a team or player defense him well except the Celtics.

I thought George Hill played better defense in his limited minutes on him tonight.

[Ice009]

+ 1

but i love how the OP tries to bring it in a false "game thoughts" in his post when his title's thread and evrything he post is basically to bash parker. LAME. Hate isn't rational. no need to argue i guess.

That was not my intention at all. I just wanted to point out Parker's bad D of late. I didn't say he cost us the game. I just don't like the way he's playing on that end of the court.

Then I decided to post about other quick thoughts. I had to go to work about 5 minutes after posting. Sorry if it wasn't organized to your standards.

[timvp]

You can't tell me TP is not to blame at all?Didn't say that. He obviously wasn't perfect.

However, read your thread title and realize that Paul had a very average game. If anything, it was slightly worse than a normal game from him. He's a damn good player and Parker defended him well for long stretches.

Saying Parker should have been on the bench in the fourth quarter is extremely irrational, especially considering he shot better than anyone on either team.


What do you have to say about his porous defense of late?What porous defense? He sucked against JJ Barea but who else? He shut down Billups and did a good job versus Bibby. In the last game he almost shut out Westbrook.

I know Spurs fans first reaction to a loss is to blame Parker but it should at least be based in reality.

[urunobili]

Manu was as guilty as TP for the loss... TP shouldn't get all the hate Fin/Mason/Thomas and Bonner should for this one...

[spursfan09]

Yup definitly. I also blame the economy on Tony Parker to. I just want to throw my shoes at him!

[Ice009]

Manu was as guilty as TP for the loss... TP shouldn't get all the hate Fin/Mason/Thomas and Bonner should for this one...

Let's just say Manu was worse offensively and Tony was worse defensively. Both were equally bad.

[Ice009]

Didn't say that. He obviously wasn't perfect.

However, read your thread title and realize that Paul had a very average game. If anything, it was slightly worse than a normal game from him. He's a damn good player and Parker defended him well for long stretches.

Saying Parker should have been on the bench in the fourth quarter is extremely irrational, especially considering he shot better than anyone on either team.

What porous defense? He sucked against JJ Barea but who else? He shut down Billups and did a good job versus Bibby. In the last game he almost shut out Westbrook.

I know Spurs fans first reaction to a loss is to blame Parker but it should at least be based in reality.

Well I did overreact. I will admit to that. I posted that right after the game and had to go work shortly after posting that. Like I said to a previous poster it was not my intention to make it the way all you guys are taking it.

I agree with the Billups match up. I thought Tony's D was very good that game, but since that game I think he's declined. I just don't think he's putting the same amount of effort in. Also, if Parker defended Paul as well as you say he did why did Pop have Bonner double teaming him? I think George Hill played better D on Paul.

As for Bibby and Westbrook I don't really rate either of those guys as hard covers.

Maybe watching the Celtics play aggressive D gets me mad when I see poor efforts on that end of the court. The Spurs are better than what they are showing. The OKC game was an indicator that the Spurs had slacked off yet again. What does it take for these guys to focus in for more than a few games at a time?

[mrspurs]

The Spurs didn't lose tonight because of defense.

They lost because they went 0-9 from 3 in the fourth quarter and couldn't put the ball in the basket.

That said, I would have played Hill with Tony tonight and sat the Finley/Mason combo.

1cvx b nh . ]hgnhyj7ufoil9oQ

[mrspurs]

The Spurs didn't lose tonight because of defense.

They lost because they went 0-9 from 3 in the fourth quarter and couldn't put the ball in the basket.

That said, I would have played Hill with Tony tonight and sat the Finley/Mason combo.

Id have to agree. When we dont make those 3 point shots. We dont win most games. We surely arent gonna win against the Hornets or the Lakers. As for who Pop shoulda gone with. I have no problems with his decision making this game. NO is just better right now.

[I Love Me Some Me]

Sometimes it's as easy as hitting open shots. The Spurs hit at their normal clip in the fourth quarter, and it's a different story.

It's ridiculous to complain about defense after a game where you held a team like NO to 90 points on their court.

If they make shots last night they win. They didn't, and they lost.

[Ice009]

Sometimes it's as easy as hitting open shots. The Spurs hit at their normal clip in the fourth quarter, and it's a different story.

It's ridiculous to complain about defense after a game where you held a team like NO to 90 points on their court.

If they make shots last night they win. They didn't, and they lost.

So defensive breakdowns in the 4th quarter of a tight game don't matter?

What you said is something Mike D'Antoni would have said back in the day.

[SenorSpur]

Another thing is that Pop needs to recognize when Michael stinks and get him off the fucking court.

Tonight his DEFENSE and OFFENSE were bad yet he still gets a ton of 4th quarter minutes. Mason only comes out with about a minute left in the 4th. What kind of shit is that?

Amen


Manu has got to cut out those fucking idiotic turnovers. He had some really bad passes that lead to turnovers late in the 4th quarter tonight. THAT IS ENOUGH OF THAT MANU.

Amen again, brother!

[Ice009]

So all those people that said to me in this thread that the defense is OK what do you have to say now???

How about Michael Finley?

[timvp]

So all those people that said to me in this thread that the defense is OK what do you have to say now???Uh, the defense isn't the problem right now.

[Josepatches_]

Nelson is just doing whatever he wants on Parker tonite.

Sad,but true

[SpursFan0728]

Parker is shitting tonight

[kuato]

Parker sucks

[manustarting2gd]

Someone please validate or discredit this ... I can almost bet that the opposing starting PG has a better than average PPG etc when they play the Spurs. Tony Parker is a matador on defense. I wish I had numbers to really back this up but as a Spurs fan who watches nearly every game I can almost guarantee it. Regardless of those who say Tony is just the fall guy, he sux balls on D. Admit it. You can say he funnels the guards to the post but hell, George hill plays better D than Tony IMO.

[timvp]

Nelson is just doing whatever he wants on Parker tonite.
Nelson exploded in the second half after going 1-for-5 in the first half. Props to this thread for finally coming thru :tu

[timvp]

Someone please validate or discredit this ... I can almost bet that the opposing starting PG has a better than average PPG etc when they play the Spurs. Tony Parker is a matador on defense. I wish I had numbers to really back this up but as a Spurs fan who watches nearly every game I can almost guarantee it.Uh, not even close. Parker has more than doubled the scoring of the opposing point guard this season. Per 48 minutes, he's scoring 31.8 points. The opposing point guard scores 15.2 points per 48 minutes.

Sometimes I gotta wonder what basketball Spurs fans watch.


Regardless of those who say Tony is just the fall guy, he sux balls on D. Admit it. You can say he funnels the guards to the post but hell, George hill plays better D than Tony IMO.Parker's been the fall guy for the last half decade. And yeah, Hill is pretty damn good at D. That's why he's in the NBA.

That said, for the season, the opposing point guard scores more points per minute when Hill is on the court compared to Parker.

[Creation88]

both Tony and Mason look terrible right now on the defensive end.

[ploto]

Uh, not even close. Parker has more than doubled the scoring of the opposing point guard this season. Per 48 minutes, he's scoring 31.8 points. The opposing point guard scores 15.2 points per 48 minutes.


That was not the poster's claim. His claim was that opposing PG's score above their own average PPG against Tony. I have no idea if he is right or not, but at least that was what he claimed.

[timvp]

That was not the poster's claim. His claim was that opposing PG's score above their own average PPG against Tony. I have no idea if he is right or not, but at least that was what he claimed.
Good point. I'm not sure what posts timvp was reading . . . :smokin

But yeah, it's still wrong. The average point guard scores ~17 points per 48 minutes.

[Josepatches_]

Good point. I'm not sure what posts timvp was reading . . . :smokin

But yeah, it's still wrong. The average point guard scores ~17 points per 48 minutes.

But maybe all the point guards usually score less than their average ppg when they play against defensive big men like TD,Howard,Chandler,Camby.....

Parker's D is not really good in the last games but it happens the same with more players of the team

[ElNono]

Tony had up and down games defensively. CP3 did anything he wanted last night, but then again, Paul does that to every team with the exception of the Celtics. There was one game this season where he was stinking up the joint, and Pop pulled him out for the last 5 minutes or so of the game. We still won that game, but Pop said afterward that he stunk but 'He can do that, he's human'. I thought today Nelson really burned him, but I think Tony was tired. He got to a point in today's game where he was afraid to drive with Howard being there for the block and he wouldn't take the open shot either. And when Nelson drives past him like nobody is there, then it looks even worse.
That said, he had a bad game. It happens to everyone. He'll bounce back. Just gotta have patience.

[Slippy]

Wow. I thought the thread starter had a valid observation. He wasn't blaming Tony for the loss just pointing out his D on Paul wasn't good enough.

Complacent and lazy would be the best way to describe Tony's effort on D. No one can stop Paul's effectiveness but you can make life a lot more difficult for him.

Hill was an option. Not sure why Pop didn't go with him.

[WalterBenitez]

Send Tony with Manu, you know to spark the bench :p:

[DaBears]

DO spurs have a draft pick this summer or does it go to another team for the Kurt Thomas deal!!

[DaBears]

Who has more trade Value? Manu or TP and if you where to trade one of them! what player should they get in return?
Let me know!!!

[manustarting2gd]

Uh, not even close. Parker has more than doubled the scoring of the opposing point guard this season. Per 48 minutes, he's scoring 31.8 points. The opposing point guard scores 15.2 points per 48 minutes.

Sometimes I gotta wonder what basketball Spurs fans watch.

Parker's been the fall guy for the last half decade. And yeah, Hill is pretty damn good at D. That's why he's in the NBA.

That said, for the season, the opposing point guard scores more points per minute when Hill is on the court compared to Parker.


LOL. Wow, doggin me out like that. Looks like i touched a nerve Timvp and Thanks Ploto for clarifying my response. Timvp your a Parker homer man. Face it, we all watch the Spurs every damn night and I know Tony is the man on offense, but defending his weak ass D is criminal. I again will reiterate (and I wish someone here was a big enough numbers geek to know this) I personally feel that our opponents starting PG vs Tony Parker has a higher than normal PPG. And for Hill, Im glad you admit that his D is better than Tony. Thats all i was saying. GO SPURS :king

[Josepatches_]

Who has more trade Value? Manu or TP and if you where to trade one of them! what player should they get in return?
Let me know!!!

Now they can be at the same level or very similar but IMO Tony has more trade value because he's younger and even he can improve.But this season it's not the year for trade one of them.We still have a team that can have a chance to win.
In the future I would trade one or both for one franchise player who let us have chance to win the NBA in the next 5-10 years.Of course it's not easy to find a new TD.That's obvious.
But I don't like to play only to be in the playoffs without any chance to win and it's difficult to change it without a trade or without a high pick in the draft that you can have if you made the playoffs.

We don't like it but we have to begin the reconstruction of the team soon(2-3 years or even less) and probably we will have to make a big trade to do it or we will have to miss the playoffs to go to the draft.

[Brazil]

LOL. Wow, doggin me out like that. Looks like i touched a nerve Timvp and Thanks Ploto for clarifying my response. Timvp your a Parker homer man. Face it, we all watch the Spurs every damn night and I know Tony is the man on offense, but defending his weak ass D is criminal. I again will reiterate (and I wish someone here was a big enough numbers geek to know this) I personally feel that our opponents starting PG vs Tony Parker has a higher than normal PPG. And for Hill, Im glad you admit that his D is better than Tony. Thats all i was saying. GO SPURS :king

and you are a Manu homer right ?

[Brazil]

I think he is just being objetive. It really was disgustin to watch CP3, and Them Nelson School Parker like they did.

I have no problem to admit when TP is playing bad offense or defense or both I jsut find funny that a Manu homer tells timvp that he is a TP homer when timvp is just being objective

[DROB4EVER]

Tony and Tim show no heart!!!! You got to want it and to me if they dont trade them away! Hill has outplayed Parker and that should lite a fire under TPs ass but hasnt yet, Pops needs to go back to chewing his ass out!

Duncan is what 260-270? He gets pushed around like a rag doll! He is slow to start him move and he tried to take what the D gives instead of imposing his will.

Hope the Spurs make some deals or decide to speed up the tempo and become a run and gun team.

[mrspurs]

I think other guards in the league get to many layups. And it shouldnt be anyones fault but the team as a whole. Or the simple fact that other then Timmy, there is noone to stop anyone from driving in and making easy layups. Teams are scoring on us and were not even set up on defense yet. If you get beat by your man, your teamate should have your back. Thats how the Spurs won so many titles. By watching each others backs. In last seasons POs. I saw a Spurs team that didnt defend as a team imo. It was like if you get beat, its not my fault. And onto the next play.

[timvp]

LOL. Wow, doggin me out like that. Looks like i touched a nerve Timvp and Thanks Ploto for clarifying my response. Timvp your a Parker homer man. Face it, we all watch the Spurs every damn night and I know Tony is the man on offense, but defending his weak ass D is criminal. I again will reiterate (and I wish someone here was a big enough numbers geek to know this) I personally feel that our opponents starting PG vs Tony Parker has a higher than normal PPG. And for Hill, Im glad you admit that his D is better than Tony. Thats all i was saying. GO SPURS :kingMy bad for reading your post wrong. But seriously, your point doesn't hold up to the facts.

Against Parker, the opposing point guards average 15.2 points per 48 minutes. That's not only a good mark, it's the best in the NBA for a starting point guard.

Points Against Per 48 Minutes
Parker, Spurs - 15.2
Chalmers, Heat - 15.5
Blake, Blazers - 16.1
Felton, Bobcats - 16.2
Rose, Bulls - 16.8
Davis, Clippers - 16.9
Billups, Nuggets - 17.6
Alston, Rockets - 17.7
Watson, Warriors - 18.3
Ford, Pacers - 18.3
Udrih, Kings - 18.7
Calderon, Raptors - 18.7
Bibby, Hawks - 18.8
Conley, Memphis - 18.9
Miller, 76ers - 19
Rondo, Celtics - 19.1
Harris, Nets - 19.3
Fisher, Lakers - 19.4
Paul, Hornets - 19.8
Nash, Suns - 19.9
Williams, Jazz - 19.9
Kidd, Mavs - 20.6
Nelson, Magic - 20.7
Williams, Cavs - 20.8
Ridnour, Bucks - 21
Foye, T'Wolves - 21
Duhon, Knicks - 21.2
Dixon, Wizards - 21.2
Watson, Thunder - 21.5
Stuckey, Pistons - 26.7

You can call me a Parker homer if you want for pointing out that your assumption is incorrect, however there are the numbers you asked for. Parker is far from a perfect player but to call him out for the player he guards scoring too much doesn't jive with reality when he's in fact the best in the league in the category you say he is weak in.

[Ice009]

You've also got to take into consideration the Spurs team defense as a whole and the other guy backing him up down there.

I just think Parker has been very average on D lately.

I have seen Tony Parker play awesome defense before and I don't know why he's below his usual level.

[Kori Ellis]

You've also got to take into consideration the Spurs team defense as a whole and the other guy backing him up down there.

I just think Parker has been very average on D lately.

I have seen Tony Parker play awesome defense before and I don't know why he's below his usual level.


Because he's not in game shape. Same reason why Manu isn't up to par yet.

[kace]

My bad for reading your post wrong. But seriously, your point doesn't hold up to the facts.

Against Parker, the opposing point guards average 15.2 points per 48 minutes. That's not only a good mark, it's the best in the NBA for a starting point guard.

Points Against Per 48 Minutes
Parker, Spurs - 15.2
Chalmers, Heat - 15.5
Blake, Blazers - 16.1
Felton, Bobcats - 16.2
Rose, Bulls - 16.8
Davis, Clippers - 16.9
Billups, Nuggets - 17.6
Alston, Rockets - 17.7
Watson, Warriors - 18.3
Ford, Pacers - 18.3
Udrih, Kings - 18.7
Calderon, Raptors - 18.7
Bibby, Hawks - 18.8
Conley, Memphis - 18.9
Miller, 76ers - 19
Rondo, Celtics - 19.1
Harris, Nets - 19.3
Fisher, Lakers - 19.4
Paul, Hornets - 19.8
Nash, Suns - 19.9
Williams, Jazz - 19.9
Kidd, Mavs - 20.6
Nelson, Magic - 20.7
Williams, Cavs - 20.8
Ridnour, Bucks - 21
Foye, T'Wolves - 21
Duhon, Knicks - 21.2
Dixon, Wizards - 21.2
Watson, Thunder - 21.5
Stuckey, Pistons - 26.7

You can call me a Parker homer if you want for pointing out that your assumption is incorrect, however there are the numbers you asked for. Parker is far from a perfect player but to call him out for the player he guards scoring too much doesn't jive with reality when he's in fact the best in the league in the category you say he is weak in.


:tu isn't it the end of the thread ???? these stats are very clear, aren't they.


Can't we just say that TP sucked badly in his last game, on both end of the court ?? no, it's not enough for the TP's haters.

there are game where TP could be lazy and since his defense is all about speed, he's destroyed. but usually, he's a better than average defender without being a defensive force (he never will). the real thing that annoys me is that he's not trying enough to take a charge. manu should learn him.

you know there's nothing to argue when people say basically that Hill is better than Parker. I like Hill, great pick for us and obviously great guy, but all the love he got (and he deserves some) is magnified by the fact that he's the TP's backup and that some TP' hater search every single way to bash him.


The spur who was the most destroyed on defense these last games was Tim. it was sometimes really embarrassing. It's true that even when it happens, Tim still has rebounds and help defense to bring, but on one on one, :( it was embarrassing sometimes.

[Ice009]

:tu isn't it the end of the thread ???? these stats are very clear, aren't they.


Can't we just say that TP sucked badly in his last game, on both end of the court ?? no, it's not enough for the TP's haters.

there are game where TP could be lazy and since his defense is all about speed, he's destroyed. but usually, he's a better than average defender without being a defensive force (he never will). the real thing that annoys me is that he's not trying enough to take a charge. manu should learn him.

you know there's nothing to argue when people say basically that Hill is better than Parker. I like Hill, great pick for us and obviously great guy, but all the love he got (and he deserves some) is magnified by the fact that he's the TP's backup and that some TP' hater search every single way to bash him.


The spur who was the most destroyed on defense these last games was Tim. it was sometimes really embarrassing. It's true that even when it happens, Tim still has rebounds and help defense to bring, but on one on one, :( it was embarrassing sometimes.

Why do you have to be a TP hater to say he's not up to par on defense? I'm not a TP hater. I just want him to play the defense he is capable of.

Tim I give a little more slack than anyone else because he basically has to worry about 5 guys. When the guards get broken down he has to basically try and cover their man or help out. That makes it harder for Tim to cover his own man. I will agree though his defense at times lately has been average as well.

Hill, I really like so far on the defensive end. Is he a better defender than Parker? I don't know, at times this season I think he is, but TP at his best is very, very good. In the playoffs I've seen TP play some great defense.

Also, I think I like defense a lot better than offense so when people are not playing well on the defensive end it really gets me mad. We're not going to be too good if we don't defend well.

And about TimVP's stats that he posted up I still don't think they completely end the discussion. Another point to consider is that the opposing point guard has to spend a ton of energy on defense trying to guard TP which in turn might tire him out a little bit causing his own offense to drop. Anyone considered that?

[SpurSupremacist]

Uh, not even close. Parker has more than doubled the scoring of the opposing point guard this season. Per 48 minutes, he's scoring 31.8 points. The opposing point guard scores 15.2 points per 48 minutes.

Sometimes I gotta wonder what basketball Spurs fans watch.

I can attest to Parker sucking on defense. He relies way too much on the help. His arms aren't long and you can tell he never hits the weights.

The opposing point guard stat is bullshit for 2 reasons, one... Parker is a scoring point guard and most point guards are asked to distribute. Two, and the biggest reason... Bowen guards the top point guards like Nash and Paul when it matters the most more times than not.

Parker can't guard Nash, or Paul, or Williams, or Marbury for that matter. I used to think Parker was at least serviceable on defense, but after seeing him repeatedly get burned by the top guards in the league, I have to think otherwise.




Parker's been the fall guy for the last half decade.

Probably because he spent an entire NBA finals on the bench.

[SpurSupremacist]

Points Against Per 48 Minutes
Parker, Spurs - 15.2
Chalmers, Heat - 15.5
Blake, Blazers - 16.1
Felton, Bobcats - 16.2
Rose, Bulls - 16.8
Davis, Clippers - 16.9
Billups, Nuggets - 17.6
Alston, Rockets - 17.7
Watson, Warriors - 18.3
Ford, Pacers - 18.3
Udrih, Kings - 18.7
Calderon, Raptors - 18.7
Bibby, Hawks - 18.8
Conley, Memphis - 18.9
Miller, 76ers - 19
Rondo, Celtics - 19.1
Harris, Nets - 19.3
Fisher, Lakers - 19.4
Paul, Hornets - 19.8
Nash, Suns - 19.9
Williams, Jazz - 19.9
Kidd, Mavs - 20.6
Nelson, Magic - 20.7
Williams, Cavs - 20.8
Ridnour, Bucks - 21
Foye, T'Wolves - 21
Duhon, Knicks - 21.2
Dixon, Wizards - 21.2
Watson, Thunder - 21.5
Stuckey, Pistons - 26.7

I just have to laugh at these stats. I mean, not only are some of the names towards the top of the list laughable, but I'm sure this does not take into account pace factor, or anything of the sort. It surely doesn't take into account who the bigs are protecting the rim. It certainly doesn't take into account their philosophies on defense, either. Sometimes you have to actually see the game, to know whether or not someone has defensive ability. Anyway, I've bolded out some names in the quote for humor. The names in red I laughed extra hard at. I thought about putting Alston in pink because of how hard I laughed at that one, but I decided not to.

[timvp]

The opposing point guard stat is bullshit for 2 reasons, one... Parker is a scoring point guard and most point guards are asked to distribute.What does that mean? You think point guards are getting more assists than usual against Parker?


Two, and the biggest reason... Bowen guards the top point guards like Nash and Paul when it matters the most more times than not.Uh, Bowen hasn't been guarding point guards this year. Have you been watching?


Parker can't guard Nash, or Paul, or Williams, or Marbury for that matter. I used to think Parker was at least serviceable on defense, but after seeing him repeatedly get burned by the top guards in the league, I have to think otherwise.You obviously don't watch. Parker has been one of the better Nash defenders since the beginning of his career. The Spurs came back from a 0-2 deficit when Pop switched Parker onto Paul. Parker has outplayed Williams head to head in his career. And Marbury hasn't been a problem for Parker since about 2003.



Probably because he spent an entire NBA finals on the bench.Have you watched the Spurs since 2003?




I just have to laugh at these stats. I mean, not only are some of the names towards the top of the list laughable, It's obviously not going to list the best point guard defenders in order but the three players you bolded are all pretty good defenders. JVG turned Alston into a good defender. Davis, when motivated, is a damn good defender. Ford is small but for his size he can defend.

If you wanted to point out a bad defender near the top of the list you should have bolded Rose.


It surely doesn't take into account who the bigs are protecting the rim.Yes because the Heat have all those bigman in the middle to protect the rim.


Anyway, I've bolded out some names in the quote for humor. The names in red I laughed extra hard at. I thought about putting Alston in pink because of how hard I laughed at that one, but I decided not to.Fail.

[anakha]

I can attest to Parker sucking on defense. He relies way too much on the help. His arms aren't long and you can tell he never hits the weights.

The opposing point guard stat is bullshit for 2 reasons, one... Parker is a scoring point guard and most point guards are asked to distribute. Two, and the biggest reason... Bowen guards the top point guards like Nash and Paul when it matters the most more times than not.

Parker can't guard Nash, or Paul, or Williams, or Marbury for that matter. I used to think Parker was at least serviceable on defense, but after seeing him repeatedly get burned by the top guards in the league, I have to think otherwise.




Probably because he spent an entire NBA finals on the bench.

:lmao :lmao :lmao

[Spurs Brazil]

I can't believe all this hate on TP

The guy is an all star, finals MVP, the starter PG for the best team in the league since 2002 and people keep find a way to say some BS about him

That's stupid

[K-State Spur]

Seems like a lot threads we see every year around late december/early january.

Then the RRT comes along and they right the ship.

But it won't stop the fans from panicking again next year about this time.

[spursfan09]

I can attest to Parker sucking on defense. He relies way too much on the help. His arms aren't long and you can tell he never hits the weights.

The opposing point guard stat is bullshit for 2 reasons, one... Parker is a scoring point guard and most point guards are asked to distribute. Two, and the biggest reason... Bowen guards the top point guards like Nash and Paul when it matters the most more times than not.

Parker can't guard Nash, or Paul, or Williams, or Marbury for that matter. I used to think Parker was at least serviceable on defense, but after seeing him repeatedly get burned by the top guards in the league, I have to think otherwise.




Probably because he spent an entire NBA finals on the bench.

An entire NBA finals on the bench? What a dumbass :rolleyes I guess you didn't watch the first two finals of 03. And I guess him winning the finals MVP in 07 wasn't redemption. It's obvious to me who the haters are.

[diego]

I think other guards in the league get to many layups. And it shouldnt be anyones fault but the team as a whole. Or the simple fact that other then Timmy, there is noone to stop anyone from driving in and making easy layups. Teams are scoring on us and were not even set up on defense yet. If you get beat by your man, your teamate should have your back. Thats how the Spurs won so many titles. By watching each others backs. In last seasons POs. I saw a Spurs team that didnt defend as a team imo. It was like if you get beat, its not my fault. And onto the next play.

just when it looked like i had wasted time reading a thinly veiled tp/manu thread, there was a nuggest of rationality, and from an unlikely source.

i absolutely agree- we've gradually deteriorated as a defensive team, because teams are realizing Duncan is the only shotblocker, we're older and injured to boot, and increasingly more often than not there just isnt the tenacity that we've come to take for granted from spurs defense.

but its absolutely retarded to pin it on parker, especially when he has showed more improvement this year and is coming back from injury.

in that sense I agree with the OP that Hill and Mason should still be seeing more of TP and Manu's minutes. especially when they were winning at a very good pace with that lineup. and i think the FO should make a call on mahinmi at midseason, because it would be almost pointless to go into the playoffs without another shotblocker.

in the champ years the spurs had the perfect combination of good D (no layups or 3s) and scoring (layups from the big 3 and 3s from the roleplayers). It certainly feels like we're ending up on the wrong end of those 3s and layups more often.

[SpursFanFirst]

:lol


And if this is a thread to complain about everything, I'd like to say Hornets fans are much better than Spurs fans. They boo and applaud at all the right times, reacting to what's actually going on during the game. If this was in the AT&T Center, Spurs fans would have been cheering David West's 3's because they were distracted by the Coyote doing the 'steal the woman's purse' trick on the sidelines.

Well, the Coyote is pretty awesome. Just sayin'... :)

[manustarting2gd]

My bad for reading your post wrong. But seriously, your point doesn't hold up to the facts.

Against Parker, the opposing point guards average 15.2 points per 48 minutes. That's not only a good mark, it's the best in the NBA for a starting point guard.

Points Against Per 48 Minutes
Parker, Spurs - 15.2
Chalmers, Heat - 15.5
Blake, Blazers - 16.1
Felton, Bobcats - 16.2
Rose, Bulls - 16.8
Davis, Clippers - 16.9
Billups, Nuggets - 17.6
Alston, Rockets - 17.7
Watson, Warriors - 18.3
Ford, Pacers - 18.3
Udrih, Kings - 18.7
Calderon, Raptors - 18.7
Bibby, Hawks - 18.8
Conley, Memphis - 18.9
Miller, 76ers - 19
Rondo, Celtics - 19.1
Harris, Nets - 19.3
Fisher, Lakers - 19.4
Paul, Hornets - 19.8
Nash, Suns - 19.9
Williams, Jazz - 19.9
Kidd, Mavs - 20.6
Nelson, Magic - 20.7
Williams, Cavs - 20.8
Ridnour, Bucks - 21
Foye, T'Wolves - 21
Duhon, Knicks - 21.2
Dixon, Wizards - 21.2
Watson, Thunder - 21.5
Stuckey, Pistons - 26.7

You can call me a Parker homer if you want for pointing out that your assumption is incorrect, however there are the numbers you asked for. Parker is far from a perfect player but to call him out for the player he guards scoring too much doesn't jive with reality when he's in fact the best in the league in the category you say he is weak in.

Pretty sick stats I must say, guess my eyes are deceiving me. Appreciate the info mang. I guess seeing CP and Jameer light us up got to me. I suppose its another case of a fat and happy Spurs fan always wanting more. HOW CAN YOU BLAME ME? We're used to excellence. Bar none. :hat:lobt:

[ducks]

I would not mind tp running to suns when his contract is up of he leaves the spurs
always will be a spur fan though
they are MY TEAM
I would be able to see him in person
and people in az would love his d especially considering what nash does on d

[timvp]

Pretty sick stats I must say, guess my eyes are deceiving me. Appreciate the info mang. I guess seeing CP and Jameer light us up got to me. I suppose its another case of a fat and happy Spurs fan always wanting more. HOW CAN YOU BLAME ME? We're used to excellence. Bar none. :hat:lobt:
:tu

I apologize again for the misread. And yeah, it is sort of an optical illusion regarding Parker's defense. When he gets scored on, it's more obvious than any other position so it stands out. There's a lot of switching with the swingmen and the bigmen but Parker usually sticks on the point guard, so when the opposing point guard scores it stands out more.

Parker can definitely play better defense than he's playing right now. But he usually only plays his top level defense in the playoffs. In the regular season, he's probably somewhere around the 8th to 12th best defending PG in the league.

[Ice009]

I would not mind tp running to suns when his contract is up of he leaves the spurs
always will be a spur fan though
they are MY TEAM
I would be able to see him in person
and people in az would love his d especially considering what nash does on d

The whole point is that Tony Parker can play a lot better on the defensive end than he has been lately. That Nash point is invalid because everyone knows he's not a good defender. Tony can play great defense when he focuses on it.

I don't care at all about his offensive struggles because that will come back. No problem there.

If TP, Manu and the new guys really focus on defense we can get back to being a really good team. Try to get beat less out on the perimeter so TD doesn't have to leave his man to help cover yours. That should be what all the perimeter players are trying to do.

[spursfan09]

I would not mind tp running to suns when his contract is up of he leaves the spurs
always will be a spur fan though
they are MY TEAM
I would be able to see him in person
and people in az would love his d especially considering what nash does on d

I see where you're going with this ducks. but hell no! :lol hope he's a spur 4 life!

[Rick Von Braun]

My bad for reading your post wrong. But seriously, your point doesn't hold up to the facts.

Against Parker, the opposing point guards average 15.2 points per 48 minutes. That's not only a good mark, it's the best in the NBA for a starting point guard.

Points Against Per 48 Minutes
Parker, Spurs - 15.2
Chalmers, Heat - 15.5
Blake, Blazers - 16.1
Felton, Bobcats - 16.2
Rose, Bulls - 16.8
Davis, Clippers - 16.9
Billups, Nuggets - 17.6
Alston, Rockets - 17.7
Watson, Warriors - 18.3
Ford, Pacers - 18.3
Udrih, Kings - 18.7
Calderon, Raptors - 18.7
Bibby, Hawks - 18.8
Conley, Memphis - 18.9
Miller, 76ers - 19
Rondo, Celtics - 19.1
Harris, Nets - 19.3
Fisher, Lakers - 19.4
Paul, Hornets - 19.8
Nash, Suns - 19.9
Williams, Jazz - 19.9
Kidd, Mavs - 20.6
Nelson, Magic - 20.7
Williams, Cavs - 20.8
Ridnour, Bucks - 21
Foye, T'Wolves - 21
Duhon, Knicks - 21.2
Dixon, Wizards - 21.2
Watson, Thunder - 21.5
Stuckey, Pistons - 26.7

You can call me a Parker homer if you want for pointing out that your assumption is incorrect, however there are the numbers you asked for. Parker is far from a perfect player but to call him out for the player he guards scoring too much doesn't jive with reality when he's in fact the best in the league in the category you say he is weak in.

You need to adjust the stats for pace, considering the Spurs are at the bottom of the barrel in that department. A more meaningful stat would be points against per 100 possessions.

[timvp]

You need to adjust the stats for pace, considering the Spurs are at the bottom of the barrel in that department. A more meaningful stat would be points against per 100 possessions.

Chalmers, Heat - 16.7
Parker, Spurs - 16.8
Rose, Bulls - 17.2
Davis, Clippers - 17.8
Felton, Bobcats - 18.0
Billups, Nuggets - 18.1
Blake, Blazers - 18.1
Watson, Warriors - 18.1
Ford, Pacers - 18.6
Alston, Rockets - 19.0
Udrih, Kings - 19.5
Fisher, Lakers - 19.7
Calderon, Raptors - 20.0
Miller, 76ers - 20.2
Conley, Memphis - 20.3
Rondo, Celtics - 20.3
Bibby, Hawks - 20.4
Harris, Nets - 20.5
Nash, Suns - 20.9
Duhon, Knicks - 21.1
Williams, Jazz - 21.1
Nelson, Magic - 21.7
Kidd, Mavs - 21.7
Paul, Hornets - 22.1
Ridnour, Bucks - 22.1
Watson, Thunder - 22.3
Foye, T'Wolves - 22.3
Williams, Cavs - 22.5
Dixon, Wizards - 22.6
Stuckey, Pistons - 29.1

Not exactly a huge difference. Parker still grades out well, especially considering that Chalmers and Rose spend a lot more time defending shooting guards.

Adjusting for pace in this scenario doesn't make much logical sense. If a point guard is good at getting back on defense and slowing down the opposition, he gets penalized.

[Brazil]

Thanks Timvp for all this good stuff about TP stats. It's always nice to read your thoughts and analysis.

[Shastafarian]

My bad for reading your post wrong. But seriously, your point doesn't hold up to the facts.

Against Parker, the opposing point guards average 15.2 points per 48 minutes. That's not only a good mark, it's the best in the NBA for a starting point guard.

Points Against Per 48 Minutes
Parker, Spurs - 15.2
Chalmers, Heat - 15.5
Blake, Blazers - 16.1
Felton, Bobcats - 16.2
Rose, Bulls - 16.8
Davis, Clippers - 16.9
Billups, Nuggets - 17.6
Alston, Rockets - 17.7
Watson, Warriors - 18.3
Ford, Pacers - 18.3
Udrih, Kings - 18.7
Calderon, Raptors - 18.7
Bibby, Hawks - 18.8
Conley, Memphis - 18.9
Miller, 76ers - 19
Rondo, Celtics - 19.1
Harris, Nets - 19.3
Fisher, Lakers - 19.4
Paul, Hornets - 19.8
Nash, Suns - 19.9
Williams, Jazz - 19.9
Kidd, Mavs - 20.6
Nelson, Magic - 20.7
Williams, Cavs - 20.8
Ridnour, Bucks - 21
Foye, T'Wolves - 21
Duhon, Knicks - 21.2
Dixon, Wizards - 21.2
Watson, Thunder - 21.5
Stuckey, Pistons - 26.7

You can call me a Parker homer if you want for pointing out that your assumption is incorrect, however there are the numbers you asked for. Parker is far from a perfect player but to call him out for the player he guards scoring too much doesn't jive with reality when he's in fact the best in the league in the category you say he is weak in.
Where did you get these stats?

[timvp]

Where did you get these stats?
82games.com

[Shastafarian]

82games.com

Ok well the updated stats have skewed because of the relatively small sample size (I would guess). Here are a couple numbers that stood out to me:

Opponent FG% / 48 minutes : 52.3%
T/O Comparison : -1.3

What is iFG?

[T Park]

Ok well the updated stats have skewed because of the relatively small sample size (I would guess). Here are a couple numbers that stood out to me:

Opponent FG% / 48 minutes : 52.3%
T/O Comparison : -1.3

What is iFG?

:lol

crawdad aint just a fish you eat in season in march.

[Shastafarian]

:lol

crawdad aint just a fish you eat in season in march.

Maybe you should read the stats before you post.

The points/game against went from 15.2 to 16.9. That's quite a leap after one game.

[Shastafarian]

As a comparison here are the numbers for the rest of the rotation guys.

Duncan's Opponents:

At PF - 47%
At C - 51.4%

Manu's Opponents:

At SG - 53.4%
At SF - 55.3%

Bonner's Opponents:

At PF - 50.3%
*There are no stats for him at C

Hill's Opponents:

At PG - 41.7%
At SG - 50%

Mason's Opponents:

At PG - 50%
At SG - 52.3%
At SF - 60.7%

Bowen's Opponents:

At SG - 40%
At SF - 45.4%
At PF - 37.1%

Udoka's Opponents:

At SF - 48.2%
At PF - 45.8%

KT's Opponents:

At PF - 48.7%
At C - 42.9%

Finley's Opponents:

At SG - 58.1%
At SF - 49.7%
At PF - 35%

JV's Opponents:

At PG - 42.2%

Oberto's Opponents:

At C - 48.1%

One could also argue that the opponent SG FG% should be higher since point guards aren't typically known for their shooting prowess.

[Rick Von Braun]

Adjusting for pace in this scenario doesn't make much logical sense. If a point guard is good at getting back on defense and slowing down the opposition, he gets penalized.

Basketball is a game of possessions. If a TEAM uses a 24 second clock on offense, like the Spurs do, it is clear that the opponents have less chances to score over a certain period of time, like 48 minutes, since they will have less possessions overall over the course of a game against the Spurs. So your answer is just one side of the coin.

Take care.