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Winehole23
12-24-2008, 12:31 AM
One of the best ordinary language descriptions I've read about the Panic of 2008 and what it means for 2009 and beyond.

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http://www.rgemonitor.com/financemarkets-monitor/254750/deflation_has_become_inevitable

London Banker (http://www.rgemonitor.com/financemarkets-monitor/bio/lbanker3/london_banker)

For a while now I have been on the fence on the inflation/deflation issue – whether the massive monetisation of bad debts by central banks and governments will lead to rapidly escalating inflation as currencies are debased or, alternatively, lead to deflation as bad debts and illiquidity undermine all commercial and financial activity in the economy. I’m now coming down on the side of deflation for a very simple reason: there is no longer any incentive to save or invest, and so debt and investment cannot increase much beyond current bloated levels.



In Lombard Street (http://www.econlib.org/library/Bagehot/bagLom10.html), Bagehot’s seminal tome on fractional reserve central banking, Bagehot advises any central bank facing a simultaneous credit crisis and currency crisis to raise interest rates. By raising rates they will ensure that foreign creditors remain incentivised to maintain the general level of credit available while the central bank resolves the local liquidity crisis through liquidation of failed banks and temporary liquidity support of stressed banks.


The very opposite policies have been pursued by central banks in the US, Europe and UK since the beginning of the sub-prime crisis in August 2007. They have cut policy rates drastically, and as the crisis escalated and spread, the yield on government debt has dropped to negative territory. Meanwhile they have shielded those responsible for the creation of record levels of bad debt from any regulatory accountability, relaxed transparency of accounts, and provided massive taxpayer-funded financial infusions to prevent failure and liquidation.


While in the short term these policies have expediency and the maintenance of market “confidence” on their side, in the longer term these policies must undermine any confidence a rational and objective saver or investor might have that savings or investment in the US, EU or UK will be fairly remunerated at an above-inflation rate, or that savings and investments will be protected by effective oversight and regulation from the sorts of executive debasement and outright misappropriation and fraud that are beginning to colour our perceptions of the past decade.


Anyone sitting on a pile of cash now is unlikely to want to either (a) place it in a bank, or (b) invest it in the stock market. As a result, the implosion of the financial and real economy must continue no matter how big the central bank’s aspirations for its balance sheet or the treasury’s aspirations for its deficit.


If US, EU and UK had substantial domestic savings to fund their banks (as in Japan in 1990), then perhaps the consequences would not be so imminently disastrous. Lacking sufficient domestic savings, however, their actions will likely make foreign creditors in Japan, China, the Gulf and elsewhere question whether it is worthwhile to keep pumping scarce savings into such flawed and reckless economies.


During the reckless boom years, savings collapsed in bubble economies as retail and commercial and financial actors alike chased speculative yields with greater and greater leverage. During the reckless bust years, savings will collapse further as retail and commercial and financial actors chase safety by hoarding their meagre remaining assets from further erosion by refusing to lend at negative returns and refusing to finance failed corporate and investment models that only enrich poltically-connected management and intermediaries.


The determination to avoid any accountability for failed banks, failed business models, failed regulatory systems and failed academic rationales for all the above invites anyone with spare cash – an increasingly select crowd – to withhold it from further depredations. It is this instinct, more than confidence in the government, which is driving so many to seek the temporary safety of short-dated government securities.


The result of discouraging domestic and foreign creditors and investors must be inevitable deflation as debt levels become increasingly hard to finance and ultimately contract. Irresponsible central banks and governments can try to bail out the failed banks, businesses and municipalities at the centre of every popped bubble, but the bubble economies are ever more certain to deflate with each bailout. Each bailout further undermines the market discipline which is bedrock to a saver or investor’s decision to part with hard-earned cash by trusting it to the intermediation of the management of a bank or business.


It’s this simple: I won’t invest in a country that bails out failure and punishes savers. I won’t invest in the US or UK until they change course and protect savers and investors, ensuring a reasonably predictable positive return. In the EU, I will be very selective, preferring those conservative states like Germany that never embraced the worst excesses, although sadly still have fall out from individual banks' stupidity in buying into foreign excess. I will know when it is safe to reinvest when policy interest rates, bank/intermediary oversight and accounting standards give me confidence I am better protected than the corporate or financial elite.


While it may take the Asian and the Gulf State investors longer to embrace my analysis, I have no doubt that they too will eventually conclude that parting with their savings under the terms now on offer will only deepen their losses. They would be better off keeping the money at home, investing locally under local laws and vigilance, and letting the US and UK implode.


The argument against this has always been that with trillions already invested in the US during the deficit years, the Chinese and Gulf States would suffer even more horrible losses from a collapse of the western economies. This is accurate, but not complete, as it ignores the relative value of cash investment at the top and bottom of a bursting bubble. Once the collapse has bottomed out, so long as a globalised economy survives, there will be even better opportunities for those with savings to invest selectively in businesses with clearer prospects and more certain profitability under regulatory frameworks which have been restored to a proper balance of investor protection and intermediary oversight.

Right now survival of businesses in the West depends largely on political pull and access to regulatory forbearance and central bank or treasury finance. The market has failed, and officialdom is collaborating in perpetuating that failure.


Should the western economies implode in deflation, however, there will be new opportunities to return to market-based policies that reward effective, efficient management and punish corrupt, debased management. Until that happens, those that invest will continue to lose money. Once deflation is exhausted, then those that invest can expect to make and retain profits again.


I think it took me so long to feel confident about predicting deflation because the floating currency system under dollar hegemony and Bretton Woods II distorts the workings of both inflation and deflation. Despite the US being the epicentre of all the failed debts, failed securitisations, failed credit derivatives, failed rating agencies, failed banking businesses, failed corporate governance, failed accounting standards, failed capital adequacy models, and failed regulatory forbearance, the US dollar has recently strengthened as deflation globalised. The US exported inflation in the boom years, and now exports deflation in the bust years.


Since spring 2008, as US investment banks sold off assets, imposed margin calls, and used access to unsegregated wholesale assets in custody in the rest of the world to upstream liquidity to their US-based parents and affiliates, the dollar has strengthened relative to other currencies. The media reports this as a “flight to quality”, but it is more like a last looting of the surrounding countryside before dangerous brigands hole up in their hilltop fortress. The brigands appear temporarily wealthy compared to the peons left stripped and penniless and facing winter. When the brigands have eaten all the stolen grain and livestock, however, they will have no means to replenish except to use force to raid the countryside again. The peons can always hunt, forage, farm and carefully husband a surplus to gradually increase their wealth. If the brigands raid too thoroughly or too regularly, the peons have no incentive to grow crops or keep herds (negative savings returns) and everyone starves (deflation).


In the meanwhile, the peons just might wise up, hide any surplus more securely and organise mutual defense against further attacks to ensure that their peon children prosper and the brigands die off. That would be the end of Bretton Woods II, and the rise of China, India, the Gulf and other productive and/or resource rich states which invest surplus in domestic productivity and regional growth.


I reread my piece on Fisher’s Theory of Debt Deflation in Great Depressions (http://londonbanker.blogspot.com/2008/07/fishers-debt-deflation-theory-of-great.html) the other day. One of the more confusing aspects is his assertion that the dollar “swells” as debt deflation takes hold. What he meant, of course, is that deflation increases the quantity of assets and the likely investment return each dollar purchases as deflation wrings debt and misallocation of capital out of the economy.


It is now clear to me that policy makers in the West are determined to apply every available resource to underpinning failure, misallocation and executive excess. As this discourages the honest saver from parting with cash, policy makers are ensuring that deflation will wreak its havoc on the financial and real economies of the world. Only when that deflation has played out and rational policies that reward market-based management and returns are restored will it be worthwhile to invest again. In the meanwhile, any wealth saved securely from state seizure will "swell" to buy more assets in future - a key aspect of deflation and a key means of restoring the control of the economy into the hands of more farsighted savers and investors.


I have quoted Mr John Mill before, but it bears repeating: ““Panics do not destroy capital; they merely reveal the extent to which it has been destroyed by its betrayal into hopelessly unproductive works.” The extent to which capital has been betrayed in the past quarter century under Bretton Woods II, bank deregulation and the Basle Capital Adequacy Accords is unrivalled in the history of fiat banking. The bankers, lawmakers, regulators and academics who collaborated in the betrayal still hold power, like the well-armed brigands in the fortress, and their continued collaboration to prevent accountability must inevitably discourage honest savers from risking further loss. Even so, it is the savers/peons who hold the ultimate power as they can starve the brigands.


Some day soon savers will revolt at financing further depredations. They will refuse to buy even government securities, gagging at the quantities of issue forced upon them under terms of only negative return. When that final massive bubble bursts, deflation will follow its harsh corrective course and clean out deficit-financed “unproductive works”.


When that happens, if reason is restored in markets with effective oversight, I might consider investing again, very selectively, in whatever productive works might then be on offer and only when secure in realising - and retaining - a positive yield.

Winehole23
04-27-2009, 12:45 PM
Bump.

RandomGuy
04-28-2009, 07:51 AM
I have quoted Mr John Mill before, but it bears repeating: ““Panics do not destroy capital; they merely reveal the extent to which it has been destroyed by its betrayal into hopelessly unproductive works.” The extent to which capital has been betrayed in the past quarter century under Bretton Woods II, bank deregulation and the Basle Capital Adequacy Accords is unrivalled in the history of fiat banking. The bankers, lawmakers, regulators and academics who collaborated in the betrayal still hold power, like the well-armed brigands in the fortress, and their continued collaboration to prevent accountability must inevitably discourage honest savers from risking further loss. Even so, it is the savers/peons who hold the ultimate power as they can starve the brigands.


Some day soon savers will revolt at financing further depredations. They will refuse to buy even government securities, gagging at the quantities of issue forced upon them under terms of only negative return. When that final massive bubble bursts, deflation will follow its harsh corrective course and clean out deficit-financed “unproductive works”.


When that happens, if reason is restored in markets with effective oversight, I might consider investing again, very selectively, in whatever productive works might then be on offer and only when secure in realising - and retaining - a positive yield.

"Panics do not destroy capital; they merely reveal the extent to which it has been destroyed by its betrayal into hopelessly unproductive works."

I would tend to mostly agree.

Interesting article.

DarkReign
04-28-2009, 12:13 PM
Interesting read, although my economics acumen is nonexistent.

Winehole23
10-10-2016, 08:33 AM
We are not in a recovery and we’re not really in a traditional recession. People think of a business cycle, which is a boom followed by a recession and then automatic stabilizers revive the economy. But this time we can’t revive. The reason is that every recovery since 1945 has begun with a higher, and higher level of debt. The debt is so high now, that since 2008 we’ve been in what I call, debt deflation. People have to pay so much money to the banks that they don’t have enough money to buy the goods and services they produce. So there’s not much new investment, there’s not new employment (except minimum-wage “service” jobs), markets are shrinking, and people are defaulting. So many companies can’t pay their banks.


The banks’ product is debt. They try to tell customers that “debts are good for you,” but the customers can’t afford any more debt, so there’s no way the banks can continue their current business plan. In fact, there’s no way that banks can be paid everything that they’re owed. That’s what the IMF doesn’t follow through its analysis, by saying, “Look, the banks are broke because the financial system is broke; and the financial system is broke because the whole idea of trying to get rich by running into debt doesn’t work.”http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2016/10/economic-recovery-feels-weak-because-the-great-recession-hasnt-really-ended.html

rmt
10-10-2016, 11:21 AM
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2016/10/economic-recovery-feels-weak-because-the-great-recession-hasnt-really-ended.html

Gloomy article - check out the comments too. And Hillary people still think we can afford free tuition and single payor? Hudson thinks we (the globe) is already heading off the cliff - much less without more "free" stuff.

boutons_deux
10-10-2016, 06:25 PM
The World Bank and the IMF Are Enabling the Next Crisis

According to the IMF, global debt has risen to a record level of $152tn (£1223tn) – more than double world GDP – at a time when activity is sluggish.

Collapsing commodity prices and weak demand from the west has meant growth in sub-Saharan Africa is running at half the level of population growth.

Companies in the emerging world loaded up on debt during the commodity boom and are now vulnerable to rising US interest rates and any softening of the global economy. China is the most egregious example of debt being used to boost activity artificially.

The argument that rising debt is fine because on the other side of ledger is an asset increasing in value is specious.

The only reason the assets are rising in price is because investors are taking on more debt to buy them.

[B]At some point, the asset bubble bursts leaving the borrowers in severe problem.

This was the lesson of the sub-prime crisis and it is remarkable that memories are so short.
The next big one could come from anywhere and it is good that the World Bank and the IMF are aware of the risks.

Even so, there was an air of unreality about the discussions in Washington last week.

The reason was simple: there was not the slightest hint from the IMF or the World Bank that the policies they advocated during the heyday of the so-called

Washington consensus – austerity, privatisation, financial liberalisation – have contributed to weak and unequal growth, with all the political discontent that has caused.

Even worse, Lagarde and Kim seemed oblivious to the fact that the Washington consensus approach is still alive and well within their own organisations.

The IMF’s remedy for Greece and Portugal during the eurozone crisis has been straight out of the structural adjustment playbook:

reduce public spending,

cut wages and benefits,

insist that state-owned enterprises are returned to the private sector,

reduce minimum wages and

restrict collective bargaining.

Between them, the IMF and the European authorities are turning Greece into a third world country.

It would be fascinating to see what sort of response Lagarde would get if she if tried talking about inclusive growth to the homeless huddled on the streets of Athens.

http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/the_world_bank_and_the_imf_are_enabling_the_next_c risis_20161010?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%253A+Truthdig+Truthdig%253A+Dril ling+Beneath+the+Headlines

Warlord23
10-10-2016, 06:45 PM
Hudson nailed it. The problem is the debt-based monetary system. It introduces systemic imbalances that people try to explain away as "boom and bust". In reality the system basically builds up pressure till something needs to blow - this usually happens via a recession when some of the debt tanks along with asset values (E.g. subprime mortgage debt and house prices in 2008). The other alternative is preemptive debt forgiveness on a massive scale. Let the banks take it up the pooper and provide relief to the rest of the economy. Won't happen because politicians are almost always sellouts who are bought and paid for by the banks.

Of course, you could move away from a debt-based monetary system altogether, but the banks that invented the system wouldn't like that either.

boutons_deux
10-10-2016, 06:51 PM
For the USA, it was St Ronnie and his merry "laffering" band of trickle-downers that switched USA govt from "tax and spend" to "borrow(debt) and spend".

They also passed laws that allow today's "corporate inversions" so BigCorp can evade US taxes.

Winehole23
10-12-2016, 12:20 AM
The wealthy lost a great deal after 2008. But what they lost was investment capital, not rent money. The blow for most was not existential. It did not change their lives. For those who used their money for consumption, the impact was substantial. As the trade crisis spread, people lost their jobs, and those who found new jobs were being paid a fraction of their previous salary (https://geopoliticalfutures.com/why-the-rise-in-wages-is-great-news-and-a-problem/). 2008 had a different impact on average citizens. But political control remained in the hands of the investor class, which had organized its thinking around the ideology of interdependence. It remained focused on the stability of the financial system rather than the surge in unemployment, underemployment, and the public’s loss of buying power. This played out differently in different countries, but it played out almost everywhere.

The financial crisis became an economic malaise. The economic malaise created a social crisis. The social crisis generated a global political crisis. The class that had absorbed the existential blow of 2008 turned on the elite and their values. The elite, focused obsessively on their interests and ideology, failed to notice the revolt. Donald Trump in the United States (https://geopoliticalfutures.com/the-roots-of-trumps-strength/), Brexit in Britain (https://geopoliticalfutures.com/the-surprise-at-brexit-and-the-social-crisis-behind-it/), and numerous parties throughout the European Continent challenged the orthodoxies of interdependence and the pre-eminence of the interests of the financial class. This class and its allies were completely unprepared for a fundamental challenge to the pre-2008 orthodoxies. They were struggling to return to those halcyon days. Their challengers sensed that there was no going back and sought a completely different paradigm that appeared to be witless to the elite. But then the elite appeared brutally indifferent to any interests outside their own.

http://www.realclearworld.com/articles/2016/10/03/2008_interdependence_globalization_nationalism_geo rgefriedman.html

Winehole23
10-12-2016, 12:22 AM
The issue that 2008 has raised is the importance of nations and the primacy of a national leadership to protect the interests of the nation as a whole, and not the global system or the interests of the financial community. The re-emergence of nationalism (https://geopoliticalfutures.com/nationalism-is-rising-not-fascism/) is the logical outcome of the failure of interdependence. Part of the assumption of the pre-2008 ideology was that aggregate economic growth benefits everyone. Post-2008 ideology believes that stagnation is paid for by the middle and lower classes. This leads to a political showdown.


It also creates a situation where maximizing growth is not the primary interest. If the economy grows at 10 percent, but you are unemployed, your self-interest lies not with maximal growth. If those above median income benefit from 10 percent growth but those below see their ability to consume contract, the conclusion is obvious. It is possible that free trade, for example, benefits the economy as a whole, but that the benefits flow to the top and the costs are absorbed below. In this case, someone earning below median income will vote for someone prepared to sacrifice aggregate growth in the long run for higher incomes below the median for the next 20 years. That is precisely what the argument against the pre-2008 ideology is saying. Free trade may benefit the economy as a whole, yet devastate a class (https://geopoliticalfutures.com/france-and-germany-call-to-end-trade-talks/). That class will accept lower growth to avoid the consequences of lower wages. For the pre-2008 ideology, this view is incomprehensible. But it has become the prevailing ideology of roughly half of Euro-American society

Winehole23
10-12-2016, 12:23 AM
A new ideology has emerged. It is not yet in power, but it is growing. It argues that the nation-state controlling and limiting its dependence is superior to interdependence. It also argues that the nation-state provides benefits that globalism cannot: a sense of community, the preservation of culture, a sense of self. This argument says that humans without a nation are humans without a community. They are alone, lonely, and helpless. And at the root is the argument that there are more important things than money.

Winehole23
10-12-2016, 12:23 AM
The world after 1929 changed and was never the same. That is true today. All regimes have shifted the way they operate, most democratic elites have been stunned by the changes, and their contempt for the incivility of their challengers (https://geopoliticalfutures.com/wrestling-comes-to-the-presidency/) is not enough to maintain the status quo.

rmt
10-12-2016, 12:42 AM
So, WH, do you agree with this article?

SnakeBoy
10-12-2016, 01:25 AM
The repercussions of 2008 have been milder and slower in coming than in 1929.

The coming recession/depression will speed it up. We fired all of our bullets and all we got out of it was an asset price recovery. When that goes up in smoke and there's no more bullets...the natives are gonna get restless.

Winehole23
10-12-2016, 08:15 AM
So, WH, do you agree with this article?it's a view from 30,000 feet and a plausible explanation of why the globalist order seems to be coming unglued. it seems scarcely deniable that nationalism is on the rise and that people are more broadly skeptical of the claim that a rising tide floats all boats.

boutons_deux
10-12-2016, 08:23 AM
the natives are gonna get restless.

The red/slave state "natives" put the Repugs/VRWC into power over the last 40 years, and got screwed, so now they're "restless" enough to "revolt" and support Trash as revolutionary disruptor.

(those natives are too fucking stupid to see that Trash's policies are Repug establishment policies)

But Trash is gonna get destroyed, while the stupid, ignorant, conned "natives" will still vote in nearly every slave/red state Repug that has been screwing them for decades.

The US oligarchy/corporatocracy cannot be dislodged.

GAMEOVER

Hillary won't touch BigFinance/BigCapital/1%, and will oversee the continued declined of the 99%.

In the USA, the supremacy of power of capital over labor, aka "Class Warfare", has now reverted to the historical average, but we won't get a French Revolution in USA.

rmt
10-12-2016, 10:03 AM
The red/slave state "natives" put the Repugs/VRWC into power over the last 40 years, and got screwed, so now they're "restless" enough to "revolt" and support Trash as revolutionary disruptor.

(those natives are too fucking stupid to see that Trash's policies are Repug establishment policies)

But Trash is gonna get destroyed, while the stupid, ignorant, conned "natives" will still vote in nearly every slave/red state Repug that has been screwing them for decades.

The US oligarchy/corporatocracy cannot be dislodged.

GAMEOVER

Hillary won't touch BigFinance/BigCapital/1%, and will oversee the continued declined of the 99%.

In the USA, the supremacy of power of capital over labor, aka "Class Warfare", has now reverted to the historical average, but we won't get a French Revolution in USA.

Well, boutons, why are you gonna vote for Hillary then? She and Yellen will just continue the Federal Reserve very low interest rates - benefitting the rich (investors) and hurting the worker/saver. Trump, at least, acknowledges the problem and doesn't want the Fed manipulating the rates so much.

Winehole23
10-12-2016, 12:51 PM
The Fed isn't a federal agency -- politicians have no say in Fed policy. Makes no difference whether Trump or HRC is elected as far as monetary policy goes.

boutons_deux
10-12-2016, 01:33 PM
She and Yellen will just continue the Federal Reserve very low interest rates - benefitting the rich (investors) and hurting the worker/saver. Trump, at least, acknowledges the problem and doesn't want the Fed manipulating the rates so much.

Yet again, your ignorance is risible.

The Fed was created by, owned by, run by BigFinance, not by the politicians.

Trash and other Repugs want to politicize the Fed, even kill it, but of course, it's cheap talk, pablum for you rightwing idiots,, since BigFinance owns all the politicians.