Isiah talks about the trade

[whottt]

These are select quotes...the entire article is here:

http://www.insidehoops.com/isiah-conference-022405.shtml

Isiah Thomas: Well, when you look at the expiring contracts that we will have this summer, we still have close to $30 million in expiring contracts to go out and play with this summer. When you look at, the way I looked at Vin Baker and Moochie Norris contracts, we have two years of those contracts, we take on an additional year with Maurice Taylor, but we get the benefit of, in my opinion, the better player for these two years. Also, if you look at what's happening with expiring contracts, that's really how some teams are acquiring talent if you're not under the cap. With Maurice Taylor's third year, it becomes an expiring contract, which becomes a huge asset to us. Malik Rose - when I look at Nazr Mohammed, I don't think I ever would have had the opportunity to trade Nazr Mohammed for two first round draft picks. I like the player that I'm getting back in Malik rose. He's a very tough player. He's a savvy champion who has played on two championship teams. Very high character. I think we're getting a very solid piece. I look at having players such as he and Kurt Thomas on the same team. It gives us the type of mentality defensively that we're looking for. Malik is a high energy guy, and I think our fans are going to enjoy seeing him play. In terms of the salary that he possesses,

I think in our league, a guy such as Malik, who is making about five, six million dollars a year, he's worthy of that contract. The two or three additional years that he has, I'm very comfortable with paying those numbers. Those are not $12, $13, $14 million a year numbers. And if you look at what we would have had to pay Nazr Mohammed, in that third or fourth year, you would have had to replace him probably at a higher number. As I said before, the way we're going to build this team, you got to get younger, you got to get more athletic. Today we got a little younger, but we also got better in terms of our future, in terms of adding draft picks. Over the next two years, you got four first round draft picks, which is something that we didn't have a couple of months ago.

Question: Final evaluation of Nazr Mohammed, he was a good player, but limited in what he could do and become, correct?

Isiah Thomas: When I look at what a true center is, and Nazr did a great job for us at the center position, but we still needed to get better at that position. And we still do have to get better. However, when I look at the way a lot of teams are playing with power forwards as opposed to having true centers, most of the East is playing that way now. A lot of teams in the West are playing that way. Until you find someone who's really a true center, who can really dominate the paint the way Shaq does, you're better off having just good, solid basketball players. And today we upgraded our teams in terms of talent.

[whottt]

I really hope Isiah is as stupid as everyone thinks he is...but I don't think he is. He was a hard nosed player who gave maximum effort and he knows what it takes to win.

And this guy is good at drafting.


He didn't create the Knicks disaster...he got them back into the playoffs after two miserable years and having to work around quite possibly the worst contract in NBA history.

[whottt]

And he knew Charlie Ward sucked.

Mohammed is not going to be anything different than Rasho.

[IceColdBrewski]

Blah,blah,blah. Zeke is an idiot.

[whottt]

By the way...the Spurs paid the trade kicker...the entire trade kicker.

[T Park]

yeah that Tim Thomas trade is fantastic.


Gee what do you think hes gonna say.


Folks, this IS a bad trade, I agree, but, Im an idiot.

Of course hes gonna spin it that its good.

Damn.

[whottt]

Blah,blah,blah. Zeke is an idiot.

Always good to get the opinion of the guy that thinks Tony Parker sucks...

[Kori Ellis]

By the way...the Spurs paid the trade kicker...the entire trade kicker.

I thought it was reported that they paid a percentage of it.

[pooh]

Isiah did a lot of house cleaning in Indy as well. But Walsh had a hand in most of that situation also. It will be interesting to see what he does. I'm sure he'll want to coach the Knicks next season.

[IceColdBrewski]

Always good to get the opinion of the guy that thinks Tony Parker sucks...

Putting words in my mouth again? I never said Parker sucks.

[whottt]

yeah that Tim Thomas trade is fantastic.


Gee what do you think hes gonna say.


Folks, this IS a bad trade, I agree, but, Im an idiot.

Of course hes gonna spin it that its good.

Damn.


Um...if you look real closely you will see Isiah is saying Mohammed sucks, that's not usually the way you spin a trade..you usually make it sound like you had to give up Michael Jordan but feel the team will be better.


Isiah is saying Mohammed isn't a good enough Center to play for his 23-32 Eastern Conference team.

He's right...what's going to happen now? Are the Knicks going to start sucking?

[cqsallie]

And he knew Charlie Ward sucked. Mohammed is not going to be anything different than Rasho.
Why didn't Pop know that Charlie Ward sucked? Was he dazzled by the Heisman Trophy?
What is Pop looking for? If most teams are moving away from true centers and giving that role to expert forwards, why is Pop looking for a true center?
This whole thing will baffle me for some time to come... :spin

[IceColdBrewski]

Um...if you look real closely you will see Isiah is saying Mohammed sucks, that's not usually the way you spin a trade..you usually make it sound like you had to give up Michael Jordan but feel the team will be better.


Isiah is saying Mohammed isn't a good enough Center to play for his 23-32 Eastern Conference team.

He's right...what's going to happen now? Are the Knicks going to start sucking?


Of course he's going to say that Muhammed sucks. He just traded him for an alright player with a huge contract. Dude is a dumbass. Plain and simple.

[whottt]

I thought it was reported that they paid a percentage of it.



Question: Was there a trade kicker, with Malik?

Isiah Thomas: It was a trade kicker, but San Antonio paid the trade kicker.

Question: The whole thing?

Isiah Thomas: Yes.

[IceColdBrewski]

Seriously. I am surprised that this guy still makes more money than I do.

I may be incompetent, but I certainly wouldn't:

1.) Bankrupt the CBA.

2.) Destroy the Raptors.

3.) Be in the process of destroying the Pacers before Larry came back.


How is this idiot still employed?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

What did you expect Isiah to say? "Um, I know all the NY fans are pissed at me and saying worse things than they said about Layden on the radio shows today, and they're right"?

He said everything I expected him to say.

If Isiah is so right, then why did he grab Mo Taylor? He didn't have to take that trade back.

And then there's this gem:


The two or three additional years that he has, I'm very comfortable with paying those numbers. Those are not $12, $13, $14 million a year numbers.

I guess he's speaking from the perspective of already being so far into lux tax territory he doesn't give a damn. For the Spurs, Rose's deal down the road could be a 13-14 million (or more) contract if they had to pay the lux tax b/c of it.

Isiah is speaking like I'd expect the GM of a shitty capped out team in the biggest media market in the US with 6 straight years of bad basketball being played to say.

[Russ]

Setting aside the Spurs' great prowess at drafting and signing free agents . . .

What is the last good trade the Spurs made?

I wouldn't count Salmon for Speedy or Curly(sp?) for Sean. Those were as much draft moves as trades.

The only trades I can recall under the current regime are Charles Smith, Steve Smith, Charlie Ward (I think). In other words, a bunch of veterans who turned out to be walking wounded.

The Spurs seem to be a step ahead of their competitors on draft day and a step behind when it comes to horse trading with those same folks.

That's why I'm worried about Nazr's groin pull. That tends to be a chronic problem until you take about six months off.

[ChumpDumper]

Well, let's just list the players Zeke has acquired:

Moochie Norris
John Amaechi
Stephon Marbury
Anfernee Hardaway
Cezary Trybanski
Tim Thomas
Nazr Mohammed
Jamal Crawford
Jerome Williams
Trevor Ariza
Vin Baker
Jamison Brewer
Bruno Sundov
Mengke Bateer
Tracy Murray
Malik Rose

A mixed bag.

[whottt]

Putting words in my mouth again? I never said Parker sucks.


I find that hard to believe. You have been pretty critical of Parker...you'd have more crediblity if you showed up to give him props when he does play well.

But don't sweat it...I am just talking shit...the truth is it's hard for me to not like a guy that calls himself IceColdBrewski.

[whottt]

Why didn't Pop know that Charlie Ward sucked? Was he dazzled by the Heisman Trophy?
What is Pop looking for? If most teams are moving away from true centers and giving that role to expert forwards, why is Pop looking for a true center?
This whole thing will baffle me for some time to come... :spin

I dunno cqsallie...but I have noticed your posts on this board and I have been pretty impressed with them. Keep it up :)

[IceColdBrewski]

The Raptors never recovered from the days this clown ran the organization. I wonder what great things they would have to say about him.

[ChumpDumper]

How would you rate his ownership of the CBA?

[IceColdBrewski]

How would you rate his ownership of the CBA?


I'm guessing that the old CBA execs wouldn't rate it too high.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

If you want to put faith in isiah, knock yourself out. Here's what Sports Guy had to say about it all...


1. When Isiah called the Spurs and said, "We'll give you Nazr Mohammed, you give us Malik Rose and a crap No. 1, and we don't care about the $20 million difference in salaries," do you think Gregg Popovich said, "Lemme call you right back," then pretended he was deliberating about it for 30 secondsw before speed-dialing Isiah back? Was there laughter in the Spurs offices? High-fiving? Was Popovich the guy who called Isiah under the "Maybe Isiah will be dumb enough to give us a center" premise? How did this go down?

2. Am I crazy or do the Knicks have a 10-man rotation made up of 3 shooting guards, 5 power forwards and 2 small forwards?

3. Could Isiah make a trade that surprised you anymore at this point? For instance, if you read that he traded Stephon Marbury to the Lakers for Brian Grant, Tierre Brown, a lottery-protected first-rounder and the rights to Magic Johnson's next comeback, would you even bat an eyelash? Me neither.

Go ahead and put that faith in Isiah. I mean he fucked up Toronto, Indy, the CBA, I guess he's bound to get it right sooner or later.

[whottt]

Seriously. I am surprised that this guy still makes more money than I do.

I may be incompetent, but I certainly wouldn't:

1.) Bankrupt the CBA.

2.) Destroy the Raptors.

3.) Be in the process of destroying the Pacers before Larry came back.


How is this idiot still employed?


Hmm...the CBA was going under anyway, how do you think one man was able to buy it so easily?

He kinda screwed up the Raptors but I don't think you realize that Isiah has a good eye for talent in the draft...the Spurs don't have much on him on making great draft picks.

As for the Pacers...he wasn't the GM, Walsh was...but I'll agree that he sucked as coach...most great players do suck as coaches in all sports.

Everyone blames Isiah for the Knicks bad financial situation...but he's not the one that created that situation...Layden was...and the Knicks royally sucked to begin with when he became the GM.

Russ nailed it earlier...Isiah can't stand clock punchers, he is improving that team.

You look at what they got now...

They got a back court with a ton of potential in Marbury and Crawford...they got a steal in the second round with Ariza...and they got a bust ass hustle player in Malik(Malik hustles 10 times harder than Thomas IMO)...

IF they are in the lottery this year they do get their number one pick...plus they get a late rounder of the kind we used to draft Parker and Beno.

He needs a Center....he's saying he needed a Center even with Mohammed on that team.

I don't think he's doing as badly with the Knicks situation as people are making it out to be...of course the NY Media is going to brutalize him...he's not winning. And pretty much all the other media takes their cue from the NY Media.

But if you look real closely, the New York Media isn't bashing Malik the player.

This trade isn't as one sided as everyone thinks...we gave up two #1 picks, plus paid the trade kicker, and a player we have won championships with as the main back up big...

For a Center...This guy is going to turn out to be your typical stiff NBA Center...like every team in the NBA has...he will never be Malik Rose or be able to alter a game like Malik could(for better or for worse).

[cqsallie]

I dunno cqsallie...but I have noticed your posts on this board and I have been pretty impressed with them. Keep it up :)
Thanks, Whott! I appreciate the encouragement. But, probably as most of you on this board are trying to do, I'm wondering what the plan is.
A lot of us may be thinking, "If it ain't broke..." At the same time, we could see that Rasho flowed and ebbed like the tide (but not with the same certainty) and we could have been greatly improved with a center of Shak's calibur. That lacking, what the heck was the Spurs' organization hoping to accomplish with this trade (other than ridding itself of Malik's contract)?
There has to be something more. Will we ever get the true poop on the Rose-Pop relationship? Was that a factor?
I have so many questions and so few answers.... :depressed

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

CQ,

I think I covered what they were thinking here....

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11287

[whottt]

Hey, Isiah may not be a financial genius...but he knows crappy players when they are under his nose...See Ward, Charlie...I remember this same media bemoaning the loss of Ward...

[ChumpDumper]

the CBA was going under anywayNot at all.
how do you think one man was able to buy it?He had alot of money.
the Spurs don't have much on him on making great draft picks.Where does he usually draft? Which of his picks are playing for him now outside of Sweetney and Ariza?
Everyone blames Isiah for the Knicks bad financial situation.He just added $30 million to the payroll yesterday. How does that help?
we gave up two #1 picksKeeping low first rounders is the exception for the Spurs, not the rule.
Isiah can't stand clock punchersMo Taylor?

[IceColdBrewski]

Isaiah was one of my favorite players as a kid and still is one of my favorite players of all-time.

But man, he sucks as a GM. There must be a method to his madness, right?

I don't understand the deals for Rose and Taylor, who now give the Knicks 4 PFs! When I heard the Knicks were shopping Nazr, I thought the idea of trading him or KT was to free up time for Sweetney. Now Sweetney will have to battle Rose and Taylor for PT.

The only reason why I think he made the Nazr deal was that he thought he could swing another deal with the draft picks. He might still be able to in the off-season (e.g., Tim Thomas + 1st round pick for Jalen Rose).

[cqsallie]

This trade isn't as one sided as everyone thinks...we gave up two #1 picks, plus paid the trade kicker, and a player we have won championships with as the main back up big...

For a Center...This guy is going to turn out to be your typical stiff NBA Center...like every team in the NBA has...he will never be Malik Rose or be able to alter a game like Malik could (for better or for worse).

Yep! That's the explanation I was afraid of! Can we discuss the typical stiff NBA Center? Who are the great centers? Where are the great centers? Will the Spurs ever have one? :wtf

[ChumpDumper]

Kurt Thomas
Mike Sweetney
Malik Rose
Jerome Williams
Mo Taylor

How are these minutes going to be split?

[ChumpDumper]

Where are the great centers? Will the Spurs ever have one?We've found our level rather quickly.

[IceColdBrewski]

Yep! That's the explanation I was afraid of! Can we discuss the typical stiff NBA Center? Who are the great centers? Where are the great centers? Will the Spurs ever have one? :wtf

The Spurs already had a stiff at center. Now we have someone with better averages across the board. And a better salary cap position to boot. Seriously Whott, I don't see your logic here.

[ChumpDumper]

If most teams are moving away from true centers and giving that role to expert forwards, why is Pop looking for a true center?He's made room for an expert forward. If you want to go on about Scola's not being proven, then you never would've signed Malik in the first place either.

And don't be fooled, Zeke asked for Rasho.

[cqsallie]

CQ,

I think I covered what they were thinking here....

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11287

Yes! I just read it. Thanks for pointing me in that direction. I realize that we're speaking out of emotion here, but what can you expect? I'd hope that fans were emotional on my behalf if I found myself suddenly off a team after almost 8 years.
I agree with your proposed strategy. It does indeed look good on paper. It's hard, however, to insert reasonableness into an emotionally-charged situation. We're remembering the times that Malik stepped up - reminding me of an old R&B song, "It's Only The Good Times I Remember."
Thanks Aggie fan! :rolleyes

[Tek_XX]

Why is Whott defending Isiah? He must not be a Spurs fan....oh wait yeah he is.

What is done is done, time to move on, let's hope Nazeeeer goes well with this Spurs team

[CHAMPS AGAIN]

Seriously. I am surprised that this guy still makes more money than I do.

I may be incompetent, but I certainly wouldn't:

1.) Bankrupt the CBA.

2.) Destroy the Raptors.

3.) Be in the process of destroying the Pacers before Larry came back.


How is this idiot still employed?

AGREE,before amyone ask he came out and said I do not want to coach the lakers,now that was funny :elephant :lol :drunk

[whottt]

Yep! That's the explanation I was afraid of! Can we discuss the typical stiff NBA Center? Who are the great centers? Where are the great centers? Will the Spurs ever have one? :wtf

The aren't many great Centers in the NBA these days...and the main reason why is that guys who would have traditionally played Center have started to play other positions...

Duncan is most NBA eras is a Center. As is Garnett, as is Nowitzki...even J O'Neal.

And to answer your question...there's one great true C in the NBA and his name is Shaq...Yao is ok but honestly he's not fit to hold the C's of the 90's jock. Every other guy, with the exception of maybe Brad Miller, is either an out of position undersized PF...or a passive stiff.

This pheonomenon of people on an insane quest for the prototypical starting C who has toughness and physicality and the back to the basket game...they are just chasing their tails. What they seek doesn't exist in the NBA at this time...and if it does it's not playing C for a lottery team.

It's just a grass is greener mentality...

And the reality of it is...the Spurs biggest problem is not lack of size...if we choose to we can have arguably the best C in the NBA just by moving Duncan to C and putting Horry or Rose at PF(something we do from time to time anyway)...

Our problem is a lack of toughness, we can be soft from time to time.....and we just sent the toughness to New York for another passive and inconsistent bigman.

[whottt]

Now we have someone with better averages across the board. And a better salary cap position to boot. Seriously Whott, I don't see your logic here.


Better averages across the board? He plays for a lottery team in the East!


Minutes ought to be easier to come by on that team...than on a team with Robert Horry fighting you for bench minutes and Rasho being the unquestioned starter because of his skill set and size.

Look...I don't think Isiah is the shitty judge of talent that you guys think he is, regardless of how loose his pocketbook is...Burn me once Charlie Ward and it's shame on you...burn me twice....


And I also don't think the Spurs shit gold, they are a great organization..the absolute best...but they do screw up and misjudge things...they've just been lucky in that a lot of what would have been their biggest mistakes never happened because of factors beyond their control.

I don't think this move made it easier for us to win the title this season...that's why I am bitching. We changed our chemistry...we gave away the main back up big from our last title and a player tied for the longest tenure with the team...and now we got to break in this new guy that has been playing for teams like the Hawks and Knicks his whole life...with 20 games left in the season.

Ever hear the adage: if it aint broke don't fix it?

In terms of finances...it's a good move...and I've never tried to claim it wasn't....but you'll excuse me if I don't get the same sense of excitement over Holt saving some bucks as I do at the prospects of winning an NBA title.

[whottt]

Not at all.He had alot of money.

That's crap, you are just throwing media smack out there...



Where does he usually draft?

What has that got do with it, Alfedrick?



Which of his picks are playing for him now outside of Sweetney and Ariza?

Geez he's only beein the GM there for a year and half...unless I am mistaken he's been there for one draft and has two picks playing for him...how many of Pop's picks are still playing for him after 10 years? 4?

And before you start..I'm not saying the Spurs are bad at drafting...I am saying that your point is weak.

He was smart enough to know Stoudamire was a better player than O'Bannon...were you? I didn't know it. I thought he was dumbass...well Mighty Mouse stole the ROY award out of nowhere and is still playing the NBA. He's got a lot of draft picks still playing in the NBA. And just about all of them have game.



He just added $30 million to the payroll yesterday.

His financial situation was impossible when he took the job...the fact that he has been able to add a guy like Marbury is pretty impressive. Imagine if we had to work around that Houston contract as badly as Malik's contract seems to have fucked us up.


How does that help?

I dunno...he''s probably going to have a high pick as well as another 1st rounder and a bunch of quality bench PF's that contending teams are going to like...he's pretty much got the market cornered on undersized PF's with game.

He's set up to try and move up in the draft...or just draft straight...it's going to be funny if he is able to turn all this crap into Bogut...



Keeping low first rounders is the exception for the Spurs,

The point is moot...our biggest need is a high quality long SF...and there have been quite a few of those found in the bottom of the draft the past few years...hell Isiah found one in the second round.


Mo Taylor?

Mo Taylor isn't total shit...he's an alright player...he's not exactly needed but I think Mo Taylor is a better player than the guys that were sent to Houston.


Look...I'm not really trying to defend him...but you guys are acting like he's a total dumbass and incompetent, when the truth is he actually has a decent eye for talent...and remember, he was high on Mohammed at one point...he's not now...why is that? Maybe 23-32 has something to do with it....

[ChumpDumper]

That's crap, you are just throwing media smack out there... It only cost $9 million, and Zeke only put up half of that and started welching on his payments when he found out he wasn't going to get a windfall from selling the league to the NBA. Fact.
What has that got do with itIt is easier to get a good player in the lottery than at #30. Fact.
His financial situation was impossible when he took the job.He made it worse. Fact.
he's pretty much got the market cornered on undersized PF's with game. So much so that he could never use them properly. Fact.
The point is moot...our biggest need is a high quality long SF...and there have been quite a few of those found in the bottom of the draft the past few years. We actually found one in FA and could easily have one in the draft or in this next signing.

[ChumpDumper]

Mo Taylor isn't total shit...he's an alright player...he's not exactly needed but I think Mo Taylor is a better player than the guys that were sent to Houston. For more money, more years? He's the epitome of the clock-puncher you say Zeke isn't looking for.
Look...I'm not really trying to defend him...but you guys are acting like he's a total dumbass and incompetent, when the truth is he actually has a decent eye for talent.Look back at the list.
and remember, he was high on Mohammed at one point...he's not now...why is that? Maybe 23-32 has something to do with it....So that's all on Nazr? Zeke got Nazr (and signed Jamison Brewer as a free agent) in the first place, so he didn't have an eye for talent then? Make up your mind.

[T Park]

lol no shit.

If he has a an eye for talent, than Nazr is obviously talented.


If he has an eye for talent, why the fuck did he sign Mengke Bateer and Jamison Brewer.

[Useruser666]

Whottt, the only worse GM than Isiah was Layden

[whottt]

It only cost $9 million, and Zeke only put up half of that and started welching on his payments when he found out he wasn't going to get a windfall from selling the league to the NBA. Fact.

Now why would he do that since the CBA was the greatest investment in history? An ATM machine? All he had to do was dump 9 million into it and then surely he'd be giving Ted Turner and Dell a run for their money.



It is easier to get a good player in the lottery than at #30.

Tell that to the Clippers.


He made it worse. Fact.

You live in an inpetrable fog of denseness lacking the ability to see either forwards or backwards. Fact.

I'm going to start calling you here and now....if a player has a bad he game...In Chump world that means he has always sucked and always will suck.

You don't seem to understand that by taking on certain salaries he might possibly be putting himself into a position get rid of even more of them, while improving his draft position. I'm not saying that's going to happen, but it doesn't take a whole lot of foresight to see how it could happen and why he would do that.



So much so that he could never use them properly.

Who says he has any plans on using all of them? Do you really think that is his intention?


We actually found one in FA and could easily have one in the draft or in this next signing.

And so could he...which I imagine is why he wants draft picks more than Mohammed.

[whottt]

For more money, more years? He's the epitome of the clock-puncher you say Zeke isn't looking for.

I've never thought Mo Taylor was a clockpuncher...he just doesn't like to play D.



Look back at the list.

I do...it's a list of players he's gotten since coming to the Knicks...and it includes at least two players the Spurs have also traded for...


I guess because he doesn't have Tim Duncan on it...he sucks.

What you fail to realize is that he can't just get any players he wants.



So that's all on Nazr? Zeke got Nazr (and signed Jamison Brewer as a free agent) in the first place, so he didn't have an eye for talent then? Make up your mind.

Stupid Fuck! I'm talking drafting...As far as FA goes..

He can't just go out and get whoever he wants.

And futhermore...it's a hell of a lot easier to judge talent that has played for you than it is outside talent...

Charlie fucking Ward.

[T Park]

Mo fucking Taylor

[whottt]

lol no shit.

If he has a an eye for talent, than Nazr is obviously talented.

If he has an eye for talent, why the fuck did he sign Mengke Bateer and Jamison Brewer.


Are you really this fucking stupid TPark?

I guess you are saying RC doesn't have an eye for talent either then...since he traded for Mengke Bateer.

He liked Mohammed..he got him, he got the experience of Mohammed playing for him...and then he let him go...for late round draft picks and an under-sized PF. I wonder why.


I mean he's not trading Marbury away for late round draft picks and undersized PF...why not if he's as stupid as you guys think?

[T Park]

Hes an idiot for NOT trading Marbury.

Fine


Isaih = God


God whottt you love to fuckin suck dick of the worst people in the world.


Heal, Coyote, Palmeiro, now Thomas the GM.



I dont understand how you can hate on a fuckin player that gets 11 and 9, and before his injury, was doing it consistently TOO!!!!!!!!

[ChumpDumper]

Now why would he do that since the CBA was the greatest investment in history? He only bought it to sell it. When he didn't get his price he stopped paying everybody. I have no respect for him.
You don't seem to understand that by taking on certain salaries he might possibly be putting himself into a position get rid of even more of them He's still paying Shandon Anderson and John Ameche to not paly for them. Bang up job there.
Who says he has any plans on using all of them? Do you really think that is his intention? You tell me -- he got ALL of them! Tell me what his intention is when he drafted, signed, re-signed or traded for every one of the undersized forwards he now has. I'm sure Herb Williams would probably like to know as well.
I've never thought Mo Taylor was a clockpuncher. That just proves you're an idiot.
What you fail to realize is that he can't just get any players he wants. He wanted all those players he got -- you fail to realize that. And he constantly makes it more difficult ot get players he might actually want by drvining up the payroll, you fail to realize that as well.
I'm talking drafting.No you aren't, you are talking about Nazr.

If Zeke trades Malik next year, will you defend that too?

[whottt]

Hes an idiot for NOT trading Marbury.

Fine


Isaih = God

Why is he an idiot for not trading Marbury?

I guess Tony Parker is an idiot too then...because he still thinks Marbury is best PG in the NBA and the toughest to guard.





God whottt you love to fuckin suck dick of the worst people in the world.


Heal, Coyote, Palmeiro, now Thomas the GM.



I dont understand how you can hate on a fuckin player that gets 11 and 9, and before his injury, was doing it consistently TOO!!!!!!!!

And you love sucking scrub dick of soft players that don't dunk.

And I don't understand how you can fucking hate on a guy that was here for 8 years, during which time we won two titles, and during which time he served the main back up big on our last title...and whose career high in points and boards is higher than either of the two 7 seven foot stiffs we now have...and whose career best PPG average, OFF THE BENCH is just about better than either of these centers as well.

If hear one more of you tards tell me that Mohammed is going to play D, rebound and dunk...I am going to puke...what in the fuck do you think Malik Rose has been doing here for the last 8 years?

[timvp]

I've supported Malik through thick and thin and even I won't try to come to the defense of Thomas. He's a stupid GM who is luckily for him replacing an even stupider GM.

However, that doesn't mean Nazr will be good. I think it's pretty much 50-50 that he'll be good or bust.

[T Park]

I aint fuckin hating on Malik Rose get it through your Rose colored glasses.

Only problem with Malik, he would play D, rebound and Dunk, but hed also play very stupid, piss off the coach, and last year (purposely put myself further into the doghouse) and also his height lately has been hurting on the defensive end.


I loved Malik, great guy, great person, and he played well.

Its time for a change, and Mohammed will show hes a very good player.


Loose the fuckin hate and cheer for the guy for christ sake.

[whottt]

He only bought it to sell it. When he didn't get his price he stopped paying everybody.

Why couldn't he sell it if it was such a great investment?



I have no respect for him.

I'm sure he loses sleep over that at night.


He's still paying Shandon Anderson and John Ameche to not paly for them. Bang up job there.

Yeah? And how long did we pay Charles Smith(our last intelligent trade with the Knicks..I forget who made it) after he was no longer here?


You tell me -- he got ALL of them! Tell me what his intention is when he drafted, signed, re-signed or traded for every one of the undersized forwards he now has.

Simple...instead of trying to make his roster fit a prototypical bodytype by position...he's saturation bombing and trying to find diamonds in the rough of guys who can rebound(when it matters) and who want to win...

It can work(and to prevent a denseness attack, let me point out that I refer to the unconventional lineup,)...There's a team called Phoenix that's pulling it off pretty well right now.



I'm sure Herb Williams would probably like to know as well.

Um if you want to bash Isiah then bash him for making a hack like Williams his head coach....then again maybe Phil is going there...didn't Phil always like Malik?



That just proves you're an idiot. He wanted all those players he got -- you fail to realize that.

Probably most of them...but that doesn't mean he thinks all of them are going to play for his team.



And he constantly makes it more difficult ot get players he might actually want by drvining up the payroll, you fail to realize that as well.

Like who? It's not like Knicks were going to be under the cap before he got there...they had the most shitty contracts in the NBA.

I want you to tell me someone he has given up that is haunting him....



No you aren't, you are talking about Nazr.

If Zeke trades Malik next year, will you defend that too?

I'm talking about the fact that the major need his team has is Center...and if you listen real closely you will see him saying he had that need even with Mohammed on his team.

Prove to me that he is incapable of judging the worth of talent when it has played for him....

[exstatic]

The two or three additional years that he has, I'm very comfortable with paying those numbers.

Quick Quiz, Isaiah: is it two year or is it three years? Neither. It's FOUR years, after this one. Nice soft shoe dance, though.

[whottt]

And I might bash him if he trades Malik and I might not...it just depends on the trade. I'm not going to prejudge the trade, because he could make a good trade and he cold make a bad trade......


And FWIW I wasn't totally against trading Malik...I just don't like this particular trade. I don't think it locks up a title for us...I think it's given us more to overcome.


And I'm not impressed with Eastern Conference Bigmen to begin with...I take their stats with a grain of salt...how's KMart working out?

[whottt]

I aint fuckin hating on Malik Rose get it through your Rose colored glasses.


Oh, you mean I over-reacted? Welcome to every post you make TPark...


Only problem with Malik, he would play D, rebound and Dunk, but hed also play very stupid, piss off the coach, and last year (purposely put myself further into the doghouse) and also his height lately has been hurting on the defensive end.

Yeah...but Malik always brought it. Can you say for certain this guy is going to? Or will we be without a hustle big off the bench?

And his height hurt against Yao...Um, Yao dwarfs Mohammed as well...Rasho just happens to have Yao's number, and I think that has more to do with the name on the front of the jersey than anything else.....that doesn't mean Mohammed is going to just be able to be plugged in there against Yao and have the success that Rasho has had against him...Yao has 5 inches on Mohamed.





Its time for a change, and Mohammed will show hes a very good player.


Loose the fuckin hate and cheer for the guy for christ sake.

Me thinking it'll be easier to win a title with Malik than Mohammed isn't hate...nor is me pointing out that he is most likely going to be the same type of passive big that 90% of the C in the NBA are...it's just me being honest.

But go on...go buy your new jersey for a guy that has done exaxctly shit in his NBA career...as you throw your #31 in the trash. Then call me the hater.

[ChumpDumper]

Why couldn't he sell it if it was such a great investment? He could've easily sold it. An offer was on the table.
I'm sure he loses sleep over that at night.He doesn't. That's my point. He threw all of the young players out of work without a second thought. I'm sure you admire that.
Simple...instead of trying to make his roster fit a prototypical bodytype by position...he's saturation bombing and trying to find diamonds in the rough of guys who can rebound(when it matters) and who want to win...He tried to get Rasho. Next.
Um if you want to bash Isiah then bash him for making a hack like Williams his head coach.Just another bad decision. Really, if he was so fucking great, he'd still be in Toronto.
Probably most of them...but that doesn't mean he thinks all of them are going to play for his team.So pay them $50 million not to play even when they are on your team. Smart.
Like who? It's not like Knicks were going to be under the cap before he got there...they had the most shitty contracts in the NBA.He's making sure they will never be under the cap. Or even under $100 million anytime soon. Tell me how that is a good thing.
Prove to me that he is incapable of judging the worth of talent when it has played for him.He re-signed Vin Baker and signed Jamison Brewer and Bruno Sundov who played for him in Indiana.

You're welcome.

[ChumpDumper]

I don't think it locks up a title for us...I think it's given us more to overcome. Yet you still predict a title. The nonargument appears yet again.
how's KMart working out?About the same as last year, only this year he has no shooting guard.

[T Park]

And his height hurt against Yao

except he defended Juwan Howard, but dont let facts get in the way hootie.

[whottt]

He could've easily sold it. An offer was on the table.

No doubt for a huge profit, since it was the best investment in history...he just preferred to lose his own money there.



He doesn't. That's my point.

Well and I would counter that with he probably doesn't have a fucking clue you were born...making your point incredibly stupid.


He threw all of the young players out of work without a second thought.

And you know this for certain?


I'm sure you admire that.

And I'm sure you admire Hitler and Satan. And you hate Malik Rose with a passion that burns hotter than hell.

I'm sure you like to drink the blood of children and kick blind dogs in front of steam rollers...

Should we go on casting aspersions and twisting? Shithead?



He tried to get Rasho. Next.

He was going to get Malik...last season for Kurt Thomas. And tried to get Malik and Rasho this season for Kurt Thomas and Mohammed.

And if he's as stupid as you guys say then why didn't he do that trade(Malik Thomas)?



Really, if he was so fucking great, he'd still be in Toronto.

He resigned from the Raptors. He wasn't fired.

And if you weren't a fucking retard you would see that I am not so much defending Thomas' abilities as a GM as I am pointing out that he is a pretty decent judge of talent...He is.


He's making sure they will never be under the cap. Or even under $100 million anytime soon.

Maybe, and maybe he'll move them for expiring contract...something he has the option to do at anytime...I think he's more concerned with winning right now and feels his best chance for that lies in the draft...

Maybe he's smart enough to realize that you don't get franchise C's for undersized PF's in the NBA.


Tell me how that is a good thing.He re-signed Vin Baker and signed Jamison Brewer

Well...Since Vin Baker now plays for the Rockets and Jamison Brewer now plays for the Spurs...what does that say about the Rockets and Spurs?

It's not like he had tons of cash to go out and sign FA's. All he could get was MLE and LLE and he got guys he knew. Don't forget Mengke Bateer was on our team once. That kinda shit happens.



and Bruno Sundov who played for him in Indiana.

Too bad we didn't sign him instead of Marks or we might not have had to trade Malik. Bigger is better right?

[whottt]

except he defended Juwan Howard, but dont let facts get in the way hootie.

Malik being active on the roster meant the absence of another bigger man to put on Yao, or do you not realize that we just made a trade?...but don't let stupidity get in the way TParkie.

[ChumpDumper]

No doubt for a huge profit, since it was the best investment in history...he just preferred to lose his own money there. Actually he'd still be making money off the deal.
And you know this for certain?The league shut down. Players weren't paid.
you hate Malik Rose with a passion that burns hotter than hell.Back to the lies. Didn't take long.
Should we go on casting aspersions and twisting?You will, we all know that.
He tried to get Malik...last season for Kurt Thomas. And tried to get Malik and Rasho this season for Kurt Thomas and Mohammed.Which undermines your "nontraditional lineup" argument completely. Thanks for agreeing.
He resigned from the Raptors. He wasn't fired. LMAO, yeah, he'd still be there otherwise.
And if you weren't a fucking retard you sould that I am not so much defending Thomas' abilities as a GM as I am pointing out that he is a pretty decent judge of talent...He is.Back to the list with you.
Maybe, and maybe he'll move them for expiring contract...something he has the option to do at anytime.You act like teams line up to take on crappy contracts. The truth is only the Knicks are willing to do so consistently -- and that's because of Zeke.
I think he's more concerned with winning right now and feels his best chance for that lies in the draft...I think he's going to include the picks in yet another trade. This isn't a terribly strong draft coming up.
Maybe he's smart enough to realize that you don't get franchise C's for undersized PF's in the NBA.What do you get for those? Espscially the ones with huge contracts?
Well...Since Vin Baker now plays for the Rockets and Jamison Brewer now plays for the Spurs...what does that say about the Rockets and Spurs?That they were throw ins. Zeke sought these guys out. Defend that without trying to weakly change the subject.
he got guys he knewWho sucked. You're welcome again.

[ChumpDumper]

Don't forget Mengke Bateer was on our team once. That kinda shit happens.
Guess who signed him after it was well known he sucked?

[whottt]

Guess who signed him after it was well known he sucked?


Guess who signed Charlie Ward after it was known(to some) that he sucked?

I'll BBIAB to sort out the rest of your lies and twists.

[ChumpDumper]

Changing the subject again?

Typical bullshit.

Just admit I'm right about his choices of players being a mixed bag.

[whottt]

Changing the subject again?

Typical bullshit.

Just admit I'm right about his choices of players being a mixed bag.


How the hell did I change the subject? I just applied the same dumbass logic you are using to the Spurs and responded to you.

And why don't you just admit that your list of players is players aquired while with the Knicks, which had the most bad contracts in the NBA when he got there, and some of those players whom we ourselves have aquired...and it's not a list of his draft picks or the players he has influenced teams to draft.

So get that list why don't you...especially since that is the only thing I am actually trying to defend.

I swear...it's like you expect Tim Duncan and Garnett to be on that list and since they aren't you think you've proved he can't judge talent.

And don't cite LLE or vet min guys to me because the Spurs sign shitty players as well in that situation...IF Marks was such a stud we wouldn't be trading for Mohammed and Brewer now would we?




The true irony here is...you guys say he's a dumbass for taking on Malik's contract...um, who gave Malik that contract?

You guys say he does dumbass trades, and maybe in some aspects he does...but what I don't see him getting burnt on the talent end of it.....IOW, I don't see him giving up good players and getting shit in return.

Malik Rose isn't shit...

You can bash his financial decisions all you want...but I repeat..I see nothing to indicate he doesn't know the difference between talent and shit when he has it.

You guys think he missed the boat on Mohammed...I simply think he knew what he had in Mohammed, and while he may not have won the financial end of this deal...he didn't give up a better player than he was getting.

[ChumpDumper]

How the hell did I change the subject?You aren't talking abotu Zeke.
and it's not a list of his draft picksThey're in there. RIF.
You guys say he does dumbass trades, and maybe in some aspects he does.[QUOTE]What a ringing endorsement. Great support for your argument.[QUOTE]I see nothing to indicate he doesn't know the difference between talent and shit when he has it. Baker, Brewer, Sundov. Change the subject.
he didn't give up a better player than he was getting.So what? He already had three other players like Malik. How much do you honestly think Malik is going to play? Is he a good fit and worth the money he will be paying him?
You guys think he missed the boat on Mohammed...I simply think he knew what he had in Mohammed, and while he may not have won the financial end of this deal.He was desperate for the picks -- he can wave them about as something he can use in the future so he might be able to hang on to his job into the summer. Talent doesn't seem to have much to do with this trade. Talent-wise it's a wash.
Malik Rose isn't shit... Nor is Nazr.

[genghisrex]

And if he's as stupid as you guys say then why didn't he do that trade(Malik Thomas)?There was an article just a day ago that mentioned that the only reason that that deal didn't go through is because the Knicks owner overruled Thomas when he found out how much money Malik had left on his contract. Isiah was fully ready to make that trade.



He resigned from the Raptors. He wasn't fired.Coaches and GMs "resign" all the time. Sometimes it's legit and other times it's simply the higher-ups letting them exit gracefully. Resignations are often just buyouts which allow coaches and GMs to save some face, while letting owners save money by paying only part of the remaining salary on their contracts. If an owner fires someone, they get to eat the full salary -- it's simple economics. I don't know the specifics in this case, but the fact that Isiah wasn't "fired" means little at face value.



Maybe he's smart enough to realize that you don't get franchise C's for undersized PF's in the NBA.You don't get franchise centers with bottom of the draft picks either. You don't even get moderately productive centers that low without a lot of luck. You can get plenty of undersized PFs that low, though, and some of them will end up being productive. Undersized PFs are a dime a dozen -- not to say Malik isn't a very good one -- but productive centers are not. If Nazr proves to be one in the Spurs system then this trade was a steal.



It's not like he had tons of cash to go out and sign FA's. All he could get was MLE and LLE and he got guys he knew. Don't forget Mengke Bateer was on our team once. That kinda shit happens.If shit happens once it's an accident. If shit happens twice (signing guys you know suck) something stinks. Sometimes you have to take back worthless players (Brewer) in trades to get what you want, but you never have to sign players in free agency that you know are worthless. If a GM just goes out and signs players he knows (and who suck), how does that show that he's a good evaluator of talent again?

[whottt]

Classic Chumpism


He doesn't. That's my point. He threw all of the young players out of work without a second thought.

To which Whottt responded:



And you know this for certain?

And Chump upchucked...


The league shut down. Players weren't paid.

I can understand you not being able to draw linear conclusions from my points...I can't understand you not being able to draw them from your own.

Fucking classic...I know, I know, I am a liar.

[ChumpDumper]

He never once showed any regret.

If you really want to know about second thoughts, ask Zeke. If there was one it didn't matter.

It's nice for you to go off on this tangent after being so heavily ghengismacked.

Classic hootie.

[whottt]

Actually he'd still be making money off the deal.
So let me get this straight...Isiah spent 4 million of his own money on a economic powerhouse to either sell it to the NBA or indulge his sadistic side and put young brothers out of work....Making any sort of profit had nothing to do with it right? Since he couldn't make as much of a profit as he wanted he chose to take a loss and to oppress young ballas...

You're a Chump.


Back to the lies. Didn't take long.
Right...everytime you do it I will be be doing it in my response...get used to it. When you stop I'll stop. Two can play the negative interpretation game...and I think I am better at it than you are.



Which undermines your "nontraditional lineup" argument completely.

Not if you think Rasho and Malik are better than Thomas and Mohammed. Which I think they are.




LMAO, yeah, he'd still be there otherwise.

Gotta link to prove he was run and didn't quit over frustrations or a lack of power with the owner?



Back to the list with you.

And I'm still waiting for the list that has Stoudamire and Camby on it...liar.


You act like teams line up to take on crappy contracts. The truth is only the Knicks are willing to do so consistently -- and that's because of Zeke.

Right, because the Knicks didn't have any crappy contracts before Isiah got there.

And teams also don't line up to take already existing shitty contracts off your hands while dumping talent and draft picks in your lap either.




I think he's going to include the picks in yet another trade.

I think that's a possiblity too. In fact I said so. Then again...if you weren't ignorant you would know he is a pretty good drafter and maybe he sees something.



This isn't a terribly strong draft coming up.

Well the Knicks need talent and they don't have they cash to sign outside FA...so how else are they supposed to get it...yout think teams are going to take their shitty contracts and give them talent and draft picks in the process?



What do you get for those? Espscially the ones with huge contracts?

You can get mediocre Eastern Conference Centers for them...



That they were throw ins. Zeke sought these guys out.
Yeah...and we sought Shawn Marks out.



Please let me make stupid points without challenging them
No.

[whottt]

What a ringing endorsement. Great support for your argument.

I'm not trying to give him a ringing endorsement...RIF. How many more times you want me to say it? I'm saying that I don't think he's got many options and I don't think he's a shitty judge of talent.




Baker, Brewer, Sundov. Change the subject.

Sorry Chump...but if you make a stupid point I am going to point out why it is stupid.



So what? He already had three other players like Malik.

Three other players like Malik? How many of those players have lasted 8 years as a key reserve with a perennial title contender...how many of them have two rings?


How much do you honestly think Malik is going to play?
Dunno. I know how much he should play...he should at the least be the main back up big for them getting his 20 mins per game. Whether or not that is going to happen I don't know...just like I don't know how Malik is going to respond to being traded.



Is he a good fit and worth the money he will be paying him?

Dunno...



He was desperate for the picks -- he can wave them about as something he can use in the future so he might be able to hang on to his job into the summer.

He didn't get any picks out of the Mo Taylor trade...he actually gave one up I think.



Talent doesn't seem to have much to do with this trade. Talent-wise it's a wash.

We will see won't we.

[ChumpDumper]

Isiah spent 4 million of his own money on a economic powerhouse to either sell it to the NBA or indulge his sadistic side and put young brothers out of business.That's how Isiah chose to do it.
Not if you think Rasho and Malik are better than Thomas and Mohammed. "Nontraditional." RIF.
And I'm still waiting for the list that has Stoudamire and Camby on it...liar.He acquired them for New York? Link?
he is a pretty good drafter and maybe he sees something.What part of "mixed bag of acquisitions" do you not understand?
Well the Knicks need talent and they don't have they cash to sign outside FA...so how else are they supposed to get it.Now that they are locked into more bad contracts? Packageing them with the picks.
You can get mediocre Eastern Conference Centers for them.Only if you are New York, becauase the Knicks are the only team that takes them. If there was another Zeke out there this would have a better chance of working. There isn't.
Please let me act like Shane Heal played in the Euroleague competition last year and Noel Felix didn't play in Europe this year. Don't expose my complete ignorance of these and other things.Not a fucking chance.

[whottt]

There was an article just a day ago that mentioned that the only reason that that deal didn't go through is because the Knicks owner overruled Thomas when he found out how much money Malik had left on his contract. Isiah was fully ready to make that trade.


Thanks for proving Isiah did want Malik...Chump was saying otherwise...since he didn't believe it coming from me maybe he will believe it coming from you.




Coaches and GMs "resign" all the time. Sometimes it's legit and other times it's simply the higher-ups letting them exit gracefully. Resignations are often just buyouts which allow coaches and GMs to save some face, while letting owners save money by paying only part of the remaining salary on their contracts. If an owner fires someone, they get to eat the full salary -- it's simple economics. I don't know the specifics in this case, but the fact that Isiah wasn't "fired" means little at face value.

It certainly means that he wasn't fired...




You don't get franchise centers with bottom of the draft picks either. You don't even get moderately productive centers that low without a lot of luck. You can get plenty of undersized PFs that low, though, and some of them will end up being productive. Undersized PFs are a dime a dozen -- not to say Malik isn't a very good one -- but productive centers are not. If Nazr proves to be one in the Spurs system then this trade was a steal.

Wasn't Mohammed a 28th or 29th pick? Brad Miller wasn't even drafted...I agree it's not easy...but who says he's going to try and get a C at the bottom of the draft? If the Knicks are in the lottery they get their first round pick this year and it's possible he could move up a spot or two.





If shit happens once it's an accident. If shit happens twice (signing guys you know suck) something stinks. Sometimes you have to take back worthless players (Brewer) in trades to get what you want, but you never have to sign players in free agency that you know are worthless.

Sucks is a relative thing...I personally think Seann Marks sucks(Sorry NZ guys) and is injury prone and have yet to see a sliver of of proof that I am wrong on this...

Sometimes GM's and coaches get pet projects...who do suck...because they think they have potential.

And you know it was reported that the Spurs were actually trying to reaquire Steve Smith recently don't you?




If a GM just goes out and signs players he knows (and who suck), how does that show that he's a good evaluator of talent again?

If you are talking about LLE and Vet Min guys or young projects it isn't an indicator either way really...it's a non factor...most of those guys do suck but GM's and coaches still want them for one reason or another...familiarity with the system...potential.

[whottt]

That's how Isiah chose to do it.

No..you're stupid.




"Nontraditional." RIF.
Non traditional if your alternative is Mohammed...Getting inside talent is the primary objective...no need to paint yourself in a corner when there is more than one approach to take...

But just because I can kick your ass on this point...you need to pull your head out and decide if you think Malik is an undersized PF or a traditional one...Rasho and Malik isn't traditional if Malik is undersized.




He acquired them for New York? Link?


URL]http://You live in an inpetrable fog of denseness lacking the ability to see either forwards or backwards.com. Fact. [/URL]

A non-idiot would realize that he has a history prior to the NY Knicks that might have some bearing on proving whether or not he has a good eye for talent...while an idiot...well he'd post a list of talent aquired over the past year and a half while being humstrung with a bloated payroll from the get go, and think that proves Zeke doesn't have an eye for talent.

But how'd he do in the draft last year? Where the playing field was even...do you want the link to yourself saying you like Azria?




What part of "mixed bag of acquisitions" do you not understand?
The part that ignores virually his entire drafting history.