Is there a God? [Archive] - SpursTalk.com Forums

PDA

View Full Version : Is there a God?

Pages : [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7

dav4463

12-27-2008, 06:17 AM

MiamiHeat

12-27-2008, 06:35 AM

no. there isn't.

Darrin

12-27-2008, 07:27 AM

No. The universe is random and that inspires awe in me. It leaves mysteries and questions we've yet to explore and probably some we may never solve. It fills in where science cannot answer those questions.

Our inner strength is difficult to realize without becoming arrogant so it helps to assign it to someone else, God. "God gave me the strength." Still, arrogance in the presence of God sounds psychotic and has led to some inhumane acts. "God asked me to do it."

At the same time, it overlooks some of man's achievements like language and its significance. Without it we don't have History. This is more important to me because we are mortal and we have to learn our past to add to human knowledge. God, as a concept, has definitely had his influence there. The crusades, the slave trade, believing there is one, true religion, it has destroyed history. Without God, could we justify such conquering? Still, the belief that the Jewish people are the chosen has led to their survival. God can give us purpose, good or evil.

This is the source of God, I believe. We develop a conscience because of how we are taught. Eventually, we realize that we have the power of free will and the downside is that it is us who are the masters. Responsibility can ruin a person, and assigning it to someone else can save us.

So God exists as much as the human animal believes it does. We are only as good as our bodies will allow us to be. But do I believe in a higher power that created everyone, no.

baseline bum

12-27-2008, 08:32 AM

Whether the universe is random depends a lot on what scale you're looking at it from. At the subatomic scale, it clearly is due to the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. At our conventional day to day scale, it clearly is not.

BacktoBasics

12-27-2008, 09:52 AM

JoeChalupa

12-27-2008, 09:57 AM

Yes. No doubt about it. I'm 100% sure of it. Of course there are those who will say prove it. But can they prove there isn't? No.

MiamiHeat

12-27-2008, 10:39 AM

i can prove where your beliefs and celebrations come from. i can also explain the real meanings behind your bible. that should be enough to prove that you are believing a lie

BacktoBasics

12-27-2008, 10:41 AM

Yes. No doubt about it. I'm 100% sure of it. Of course there are those who will say prove it. But can they prove there isn't? No.No but there is far greater evidence of God like characters dating back to well before the birth of Jesus Christ. Many of which carried similar circumstances of creation and actions. Basically Jesus the "son" of God duplicated many previous messiahs before him. Right down to the date of birth, death and other significant moments. Before you truthers get up in arms I'm not reciting the half truths of Zeitgeist either. The sources outside of that are nearly endless. God warriors and believers just fail to put two and two together because the idea or reasoning behind that reality would destroy the foundation of which they live.

BacktoBasics

12-27-2008, 10:42 AM

i can prove where your beliefs and celebrations come from. that should be enough to prove that you are believing a lie
Exactly.

phyzik

12-27-2008, 10:59 AM

There is no God. There is the idea and concept of God which keeps believers in line, but there is definately no all-powerful devine being watching over us and creating "miracles".

The thing I find the most funny is God in sports. When someone wins they thank God. Well.... what about the other person/people that lost? Did God forsake them or just favor you more? I thought God loved us all equally? Could it possibly be that through your own strength and talent that you won the day on your own? Is it really that hard to believe that?

Johnny_Blaze_47

12-27-2008, 11:02 AM

I don't know, but this tweet was kinda freaky. Read the URL (automatic from the shortener).

http://twitter.com/joeruiz/status/1080393192

Virgin Mary, married to a carpenter, gives birth to Jesus on Christmas. http://is.gd/dEAD

phyzik

12-27-2008, 11:11 AM

BacktoBasics

12-27-2008, 11:13 AM

Lets make things clear. Jesus was obviously real and Im fine with that. The story of him being the son of an invisible all powerful being is not. Mary just got knocked up through infidelity or her and her husband where lying through their teeth out of the desperation of being poor and pregnant.
Possibly. Even the existence of Jesus is in serious doubt. There is very little if any legitimate historical record of him. In a time where historical record keeping was normal practice. The man is simply not recognized.

If he was in fact real I'd liken him to a Carnie of sorts.

DPG21920

12-27-2008, 11:45 AM

Spurs fans are a good cross-section of society to ask this question..........

Is there a God?

I hope so. I don't know for sure, but I admire those who have such incredible faith. I would like to have that faith as well, but sometimes.....I just don't know. I've read the Bible. I've talked to many, many people and still....I just don't know. I've studied other religions, etc., but still......I just don't know.

It is simple. The answer is yes and no. If you believe, then the answer is yes. If you do not the answer is no. I find it funny that everyone tries to apply all of their human logic or science as a way to somehow discredit God, when in fact they are not mutually exclusive events.

People on here are writing one way or another as if they are "matter of fact" and say they can prove "no God exists", well ask your self a logic question: if it was that easy, don't you think it would have gained more popularity? I mean, humans are thinking, highly evolved and logical creatures for the most part.

2centsworth

12-27-2008, 11:46 AM

there absolutely is a God no matter what the minor league athiest on this board think. It's comical to think we're all one big accident that came from a fish.

DPG21920

12-27-2008, 11:50 AM

The funny thing is that the fundamental basis of believing in the Christian God (which I assume we are discussing) is free will. Not even Jesus said you HAD to believe, so it is natural that there are two sides to the coin.

Summers

12-27-2008, 11:52 AM

BacktoBasics

12-27-2008, 11:55 AM

if it was that easy, don't you think it would have gained more popularity? I mean, humans are thinking, highly evolved and logical creatures for the most part.When faith is the crutch that it is, being a logical highly evolved human, is almost void from the equation. God/Faith is needed or is required for a lot of people to even function let alone think logically. Its the source of every happening, every instance, every fate or choice ever made for most of the devoute believers.

Its illogical in priciple its illogical in its purest existence but it has to exist because sooooo many have to have reason...justification for doing good or bad so on and so forth.

Faith unfortunately has very little to do with logic. Its more of an excuse for all the worlds happenings. Gods plan right. If it was meant to be it was meant to be blah blah blah.

The times are a changing though. Right now over 50% of the world doesn't believe in "god". So the numbers are growing.

DPG21920

12-27-2008, 11:59 AM

I don't know either, and I try to always be respectful of people who do believe. I have good friends who are very religious. But I can't believe or go through the motions of believing. I was raised very religious and by the time I reached my teens I really struggled with things that didn't make sense to me. Everytime I hear about a child that was tortured by his mother I am further convinced that no omniscient, infinitely-good being would allow it to happen, despite the notion that this is a testament to our free will or that our faith must be tested.

Everyone has free will to believe or not believe. Meaning there are bad things that will happen. Seeing a child tortured does not mean there is no God, it means there was an absence of God. God does not control our bodies, but engages our hearts and minds and tries to guide us in the lives we lead. It is still up to us everyday to make good choices.

But you are right. I believe in God, and I question many things every day about it. It is no ones place to judge, it is our place to inspire and love, but not to judge. So I respect good people no matter what, even I feel they are wrong.

DPG21920

12-27-2008, 12:05 PM

When faith is the crutch that it is, being a logical highly evolved human, is almost void from the equation. God/Faith is needed or is required for a lot of people to even function let alone think logically. Its the source of every happening, every instance, every fate or choice ever made for most of the devoute believers.

Its illogical in priciple its illogical in its purest existence but it has to exist because sooooo many have to have reason...justification for doing good or bad so on and so forth.

Faith unfortunately has very little to do with logic. Its more of an excuse for all the worlds happenings. Gods plan right. If it was meant to be it was meant to be blah blah blah.

The times are a changing though. Right now over 50% of the world doesn't believe in "god". So the numbers are growing.

You make wayyyyyy to many assumptions in order to argue your point. You cannot verify any of what you say as it is 99.99% your opinion. Good news is, that only time will tell.

But go ahead and poll scientists, look at the number of them that believe. A good number of scientists believe and could argue every point. Not everyone is as "helpless" or devoid of scientific knowledge as you make them sound. I find it funny that non-believers always subscribe to the notion that they are somehow more logical than believers.

http://sciencedude.freedomblogging.com/2008/03/20/sciencedude-survey-do-oc-scientists-believe-in-god/

BacktoBasics

12-27-2008, 12:06 PM

Everyone has free will to believe or not believe. Meaning there are bad things that will happen. Seeing a child tortured does not mean there is no God, it means there was an absence of God. God does not control our bodies, but engages our hearts and minds and tries to guide us in the lives we lead. It is still up to us everyday to make good choices.

But you are right. I believe in God, and I question many things every day about it. It is no ones place to judge, it is our place to inspire and love, but not to judge. So I respect good people no matter what, even I feel they are wrong.I'm not certain of your exact faith but as a god warrior many of the god warrior organizations are built on the belief of their religion being the only true religion and that all other religions are forms of false worshipping which is a mortal sin. Thats judgement and judging is based in the 10 commandments. Thou shall not worship a false god.

DPG21920

12-27-2008, 12:10 PM

I'm not certain of your exact faith but as a god warrior many of the god warrior organizations are built on the belief of their religion being the only true religion and that all are forms of false worshipping are a mortal sin. Thats judgement and judging is based in the 10 commandments. Thou shall not worship a false god.

I believe you should only worship 1 God, and I believe in my God. Just because I believe you are living in Sin does not mean I hate you or judge you. I know that my God will judge you so that I do not bear that burden.

Even if God will judge you, he still wants me to love all of those around me that are good people. Everyone sins, even myself. So that inherently kills your argument because then everyone would be judging everyone because we all live in sin (as far as my beliefs go).

You are confusing God's judgment with man being judgmental.

BacktoBasics

12-27-2008, 12:12 PM

I believe you should only worship 1 God, and I believe in my God. Just because I believe you are living in Sin does not mean I hate you or judge you. I know that my God will judge you so that I do not bear that burden.

Even if God will judge you, he still wants me to love all of those around me that are good people. Everyone sins, even myself. So that inherently kills your argument because then everyone would be judging everyone because we all live in sin (as far as my beliefs go).

You are confusing God's judgment with man being judgmental.
So its ok to you personally for me to live sinfully in the eyes of your god?

jack sommerset

12-27-2008, 12:14 PM

The great minds of SA at work again.

BacktoBasics

12-27-2008, 12:14 PM

You make wayyyyyy to many assumptions in order to argue your point. You cannot verify any of what you say as it is 99.99% your opinion. Good news is, that only time will tell.

But go ahead and poll scientists, look at the number of them that believe. A good number of scientists believe and could argue every point. Not everyone is as "helpless" or devoid of scientific knowledge as you make them sound. I find it funny that non-believers always subscribe to the notion that they are somehow more logical than believers.

http://sciencedude.freedomblogging.com/2008/03/20/sciencedude-survey-do-oc-scientists-believe-in-god/I may have an opinion but its based on logical observations by myself and many others. I can verify without opinion the orgins of modern day religion and its relationship to the worshipping that existed long before the name Jesus Christ ever did. Thats not enough? or is just complete BS to you?

MiamiHeat

12-27-2008, 12:16 PM

It's very simple.

Do you believers want to start hearing the real meanings and explanations behind your religion?

I'm not wasting my time debating about faith and/or the right to believe. That will never lead anywhere. However, facts can't be disputed

DPG21920

12-27-2008, 12:16 PM

So its ok to you personally for me to live sinfully in the eyes of your god?

There is a difference between living in sin (which we all do based on my beliefs) and not caring or asking for forgiveness. If you are asking whether or not I have friends who live in sin in my eyes because they do not believe in God all together, then yes, it is ok with me. I will have discussions with them continually about our lifestyles, but a good man is still a good man in MY eyes. Do I believe that God will see it the same way? No. It is clear where they will go in my belief system.

MiamiHeat

12-27-2008, 12:19 PM

How about the popular fish sign that Christians everywhere use?

http://8minutes.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/jesus-fish-bg.jpg

You believers curious about the true meaning behind it?

or how about some of the Biblical stories? Old Testament or New Testament is fine with me.

Why 12 disciples? Curious about any of this?

Start asking questions and I will respond and shatter your world with the reality behind your religion.

BacktoBasics

12-27-2008, 12:31 PM

There is a difference between living in sin (which we all do based on my beliefs) and not caring or asking for forgiveness. If you are asking whether or not I have friends who live in sin in my eyes because they do not believe in God all together, then yes, it is ok with me. I will have discussions with them continually about our lifestyles, but a good man is still a good man in MY eyes. Do I believe that God will see it the same way? No. It is clear where they will go in my belief system.I'm honestly not interested in continuing a faith debate. I'll go ahead and echo Miami Heats comments to a more factual debate.

DPG21920

12-27-2008, 12:32 PM

I'm honestly not interested in continuing a faith debate. I'll go ahead and echo Miami Heats comments to a more factual debate.

LMAO, all you do is use generalities (everyone needs a cruch...) and then act like you present facts. I answered your question, what more do you want? I said it is ok with ME that we live in sin (fact). It is not my place to judge.

DPG21920

12-27-2008, 12:33 PM

I'm honestly not interested in continuing a faith debate. I'll go ahead and echo Miami Heats comments to a more factual debate.

If Miami Heat is your source, then that bodes well for my faith.

MiamiHeat

12-27-2008, 12:34 PM

So you chicken out, DPG21920?

These things are no secret. Scholars around the world have known the truth behind all of this for centuries. Very long time.

ashbeeigh

12-27-2008, 12:36 PM

Why do you all have to have this conversation like every month? It never ends well.

In all good faith, I believe there is a God. I will not say anything else.

MiamiHeat

12-27-2008, 12:37 PM

Still waiting for one of you believers to come out on a limb and inquire.

What are you scared of?

"The Truth shall set you free"

Bigzax

12-27-2008, 12:39 PM

pssst....miamiheat...spit your truth...nobody is stopping you.

DPG21920

12-27-2008, 12:47 PM

pssst....miamiheat...spit your truth...nobody is stopping you.

No, shhhhhh. His knowledge is so vast that he must be asked to gift it upon us. For no one has taught him this knowledge, he has done all the work himself and he alone can present the truth that no one has ever heard before in these numerous and ongoing discussions.

MiamiHeat

12-27-2008, 12:52 PM

No, shhhhhh. His knowledge is so vast that he must be asked to gift it upon us. For no one has taught him this knowledge, he has done all the work himself and he alone can present the truth that no one has ever heard before in these numerous and ongoing discussions.

Looks like you are busted. Look what I wrote in a previous post right above yours. vvvvvvvv

These things are no secret. Scholars around the world have known the truth behind all of this for centuries. Very long time.

1. You can't even read my previous post

2. You are acting like a general a-hole

3. You are avoiding my question

Bodes poorly upon you. What a horrible first impression you give off. How old are you?

DPG21920

12-27-2008, 12:53 PM

The whole point of this thread was to answer this person's question: "is there a God"? It is a relative (to you) and you have to find your own answer to this question.

Fpoonsie

12-27-2008, 12:54 PM

Hey, Miami. I'm actually curious as to what you're referring. I wouldn't consider myself a "believer", but it seems too easy to label myself an "agnostic". Fire away! [cringes]

MiamiHeat

12-27-2008, 12:55 PM

The whole point of this thread was to answer this person's question: "is there a God"? It is a relative (to you) and you have to find your own answer to this question.

uh-huh

Oh well. Typical

DPG21920

12-27-2008, 12:56 PM

Looks like you are busted. Look what I wrote in a previous post right above yours. vvvvvvvv

1. You can't even read my previous post

2. You are acting like a general a-hole

3. You are avoiding my question

Bodes poorly upon you. What a horrible first impression you give off. How old are you?

We have all read your post, quit trying to make this into something "grand". Just post what you want and move on. You are not going to tell anyone anything that has not been heard before (which is why I wrote the first thing you quoted, turn on your sarcasm meter).

I read your post (all of the ones in a row when you are talking to yourself) and I was not acting like an a-hole, but showing you how attention whore you sound.

TheProfessor

12-27-2008, 12:57 PM

Still waiting for one of you believers to come out on a limb and inquire.

What are you scared of?

"The Truth shall set you free"
Personally, I don't know why people want to ascribe any type of personification to a divine entity. But your schoolboy tactics are just as obnoxious as the zealots. You and I know as little of "truth" as anyone else.

DPG21920

12-27-2008, 12:59 PM

MiamHeat = http://www.the-spine.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/al-gore.jpg

DPG21920

12-27-2008, 01:01 PM

For you MiamiHeat:

http://homeschooljourney.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/soap-box.jpg.

MiamiHeat

12-27-2008, 01:05 PM

Uh-huh

BacktoBasics

12-27-2008, 01:27 PM

LMAO, all you do is use generalities (everyone needs a cruch...) and then act like you present facts. I answered your question, what more do you want? I said it is ok with ME that we live in sin (fact). It is not my place to judge.Living in sin is your opinion not fact. You've offered no supporting facts for the basis of Sin. So this is pretty much the pot calling the kettle black. I and others offered a fact based debate on the realities surrounding the basis of religion. You declined. You want to discuss faith and the opinions surrounding it.

So fuck it.

GO. TO. HELL.

Your faith in my OPINION is worthless. I don't care to discuss it. Where you find strength is of no consequence to me. You are as worthless as a used tampon.

BacktoBasics

12-27-2008, 01:27 PM

Uh-huhAs if he's not on a pedestal himself :rolleyes.

Fpoonsie

12-27-2008, 01:31 PM

Hey, Miami. I'm actually curious as to what you're referring. I wouldn't consider myself a "believer", but it seems too easy to label myself an "agnostic". Fire away! [cringes]

BacktoBasics

12-27-2008, 01:34 PM

Fpoonsie

12-27-2008, 01:37 PM

MH is probably refering to the Pagan Calendar and its roots that tie to religion. Celestial and astronomy are staples for the inception of worship. The dates are rooted in time and directly correlate with many of the gods including our very own Jesus H. Christ.

Hmmm...well, I WAS aware of the "coincidental" timing of some of the Christian holidays and the pagan ones held previously.

Would I just google "Pagan Calendar", or is there something more specific to search for?

BacktoBasics

12-27-2008, 01:51 PM

Hmmm...well, I WAS aware of the "coincidental" timing of some of the Christian holidays and the pagan ones held previously.

Would I just google "Pagan Calendar", or is there something more specific to search for?It would be a start.

If you have the patience you could sit through the first part of the Zeitgeist. About 60-70% of part one gives a relatively accurate depection of the relation. However some of the correlations and statements surrounding part one are based in opinion and are poorly founded. If you can watch it and pay close attention to whats founded based on fact vs. opinion and blind religion mongering there is a lot to be gained by it. Problem is that people either take the documentary for whole truth or dispute the entire thing because a small portion of it doesn't jive. Its why I almost never use it as a source because so few people are capable of lending credence to the legitimate parts even though it adds up and is verifiable. The pagan and astrological portions are undisputable fact because all you have to do go back and compare the dates with the calandar to see they match. Seems easy huh....for some its just too much work.

DPG21920

12-27-2008, 01:58 PM

As if he's not on a pedestal himself :rolleyes.

Clearly because I am trying to gain favor and act like I have cracked the code. Are you a life coach or something?

DPG21920

12-27-2008, 02:00 PM

Living in sin is your opinion not fact. You've offered no supporting facts for the basis of Sin. So this is pretty much the pot calling the kettle black. I and others offered a fact based debate on the realities surrounding the basis of religion. You declined. You want to discuss faith and the opinions surrounding it.

So fuck it.

GO. TO. HELL.

Your faith in my OPINION is worthless. I don't care to discuss it. Where you find strength is of no consequence to me. You are as worthless as a used tampon.

Everyone sees how terrible you and Heat are at having a debate. You offer opinions as fact. I said that sin as well as belief are relative. I said that sin as in my belief system. I did clarify, but you are too naive to listen. Please point out one fact you have offered.

If you do not believe in God, how can one go to hell?

BacktoBasics

12-27-2008, 02:02 PM

Clearly because I am trying to gain favor and act like I have cracked the code. Are you a life coach or something?I am a Professional Life Coach.

I don't have to act like anything. There isn't some magical code and Orphan Annie Ring Decoder. Its simple dates and times along with astrological bodies that have a direct relation with the life and times of Jesus Christ. Only they existed and correlated with dozens of gods before him. Even though :rolleyes Jesus is the one all be all /end :rolleyes.

BacktoBasics

12-27-2008, 02:05 PM

Everyone sees how terrible you and Heat are at having a debate. You offer opinions as fact. I said that sin as well as belief are relative. I said that sin as in my belief system. I did clarify, but you are too naive to listen. Please point out one fact you have offered.

If you do not believe in God, how can one go to hell?Look fuck face I don't care to participate in a faith debate. Get it? I don't care about your opinion of sin. I'm done arguing it. I don't believe in sin, god, the devil, hell, heaven, moses, the ten commandments or Santa Claus. I don't care if you think thats an opinion because I'm not even debating it.

You want to debate the pagan calendar fine. You want to debate the relevance of other gods sharing significant dates as your Jesus Christ then fine lets debate. I'm offering it as opinion....I haven't even offered it as fact because we've failed to even discuss it you fucking moron.

JoeChalupa

12-27-2008, 02:05 PM

i can prove where your beliefs and celebrations come from. i can also explain the real meanings behind your bible. that should be enough to prove that you are believing a lie

Wrong. I doubt you can explain the real meanings behind the bible any more than I can explain the meaning of your belief in science or whatever you do or don't believe in. I know that I am not believing a lie and no matter how much you or B2B or all you other nay sayers spout your thoughts it will not, I repeat, NOT, change in what I believe in.
I find these threads a joy to read but not once do I ever doubt my belief in God. I've experienced God in my life more than a few times and while many of you will just say it is a "coincidence" or explain it some other way I know what transpired and if you don't believe I can understand because I'm just as skeptical as the next person....except when it comes to my faith.

Carry on.

DPG21920

12-27-2008, 02:06 PM

I am a Professional Life Coach.
Opinion...

I don't have to act like anything. There isn't some magical code and Orphan Annie Ring Decoder. Its simple dates and times along with astrological bodies that have a direct relation with the life and times of Jesus Christ. Only they existed and correlated with dozens of gods before him. Even though :rolleyes Jesus is the one all be all /end :rolleyes.

You do not have to believe. Others do. Nothing you have said even remotely scratches the surface of disproving God. There are many different belief systems in the world (Fact). So just because there were ones before Jesus does not make Jesus false, just as there are ones after Jesus.

JoeChalupa

12-27-2008, 02:07 PM

BacktoBasics

12-27-2008, 02:07 PM

DPG21920

12-27-2008, 02:08 PM

Look fuck face I don't care to participate in a faith debate. Get it? I don't care about your opinion of sin. I'm done arguing it. I don't believe in sin, god, the devil, hell, heaven, moses, the ten commandments or Santa Claus. I don't care if you think thats an opinion because I'm not even debating it.

You want to debate the pagan calendar fine. You want to debate the relevance of other gods sharing significant dates as your Jesus Christ then fine lets debate. I'm offering it as opinion....I haven't even offered it as fact because we've failed to even discuss it you fucking moron.

Can you send me your business card, I know many people that you can help. You do not care about faith, yet you want to debate the fact that is the pagan calendar???

DPG21920

12-27-2008, 02:10 PM

Obviously you're threatened by everything that has an actual basis vs. opinion based or you wouldn't be avoiding what MH and myself are willing to discuss. You flat refuse to open a debate on it by continually going back to a debate centered around sin or whatever else it was that no one gave a shit about.

I have already acknowledged what you and heat have said. It just sucks and adds nothing to the mix. You act like because no one cares about what we all already know what you are going to say, that we are scared. News flash, this is not the first discussion on the topic and most everyone has heard what you are going to say.

(P.S., no one has stopped you from saying anything. In fact someone asked you then you told them to google it.)

I can put up another soap box if you need it.

BacktoBasics

12-27-2008, 02:13 PM

"coincidence"
Carry on.
Actually its what you guys say. Oh Easter, the date of death and ressurection along with birthdays and significant moments in biblical references completely mirror a calendar that existed years before the word Jesus was sung. Bahumbug its all a coincidence. I refuse to acknowledge the relation of previous gods even though there are scores that mirror our very own Jesus, they were all opinion too. Yeah I know its actually historically documented well before Jesus existed but we'll call it opinion nontheless.

You're right it is pointless. The existence of a real calendar and actual facts based on historical records that predated Jesus by hundreds if not thousands of years has and never will be a basis for debate with those who believe. This is why I said in the very beginning that faith was illogical and will never change.

baseline bum

12-27-2008, 02:14 PM

Anyways, no soy creyente.

DPG21920

12-27-2008, 02:17 PM

Anyways, no soy creyente.

Now thats funny

BacktoBasics

12-27-2008, 02:18 PM

Can you send me your business card, I know many people that you can help. You do not care about faith, yet you want to debate the fact that is the pagan calendar???
The pagan calendar is based on astrological bodies that were personified as being human like. Its roots are mathmatical and originated with time and its cycles. Its all about relation. The faith part is a by-product of a tool used to track the stars. The very tool that was used to create and control religion into the ages including today. The very basis was found in actual truth not questionable faith. The pagan calendar doesn't depict gods as in magical and possibly non-existent mythical creatures the calendar depicts a precise mathmatical calculation of astrology that is undeniable. Those undeniable times and dates are the basis of every significant date in Jesus's life. Its not opinion if its provable fact.

DPG21920

12-27-2008, 02:20 PM

No one is "threatened" by any thing you have said because we have heard it before and it has been absorbed and dismissed. If someone was able to 100% prove that no God exists then I would not believe. I have seen enough to believe however, ME, NO ONE ELSE.

But I think of it as philosophy as well as my religion. Even IF you could prove there is no God, I would still try and live by the principles of the Bible and the teachings of Jesus. So what is your point again? The burden of proof is on you if you are the one trying to disprove this. You have not even come close. Maybe you should be a politician instead, you could pass a lot of regulation without having to prove how it helps.

DPG21920

12-27-2008, 02:22 PM

The pagan calendar is based on astrological bodies that were personified as being human like. Its roots are mathmatical and originated with time and its cycles. Its all about relation. The faith part is a by-product of a tool used to track the stars. The very tool that was used to create and control religion into the ages including today. The very basis was found in actual truth not questionable faith. The pagan calendar doesn't depict gods as in magical and possibly non-existent mythical creatures the calendar depicts a precise mathmatical calculation of astrology that is undeniable. Those undeniable times and dates are the basis of every significant date in Jesus's life. Its not opinion if its provable fact.

yet we have not even found all the systems and galaxies. you act like science is an exact art. it is an evolving system that is constantly being built upon and re-worked. that is why there is such things as the SCIENTIFIC THEORY.

DPG21920

12-27-2008, 02:29 PM

JoeChalupa

12-27-2008, 02:39 PM

I'm not shaken in the least.

BacktoBasics

12-27-2008, 02:39 PM

yet we have not even found all the systems and galaxies. you act like science is an exact art. it is an evolving system that is constantly being built upon and re-worked. that is why there is such things as the SCIENTIFIC THEORY.No but the bodies that are depicted in the calendar aren't theory. They're real right down to the mathematical precision used to calculate the rotation of the sun and earth as they're precieved through the ages using said calendar. What is in the calendar is exact without debate or question and can be mathematically calculated to check authenticity. The very dates depicted are identical to significant dates in Jesus's life. I'm debating those dates found in religion and the relation of Jesus Christ back to the relevance of the calendar and other similarities to all the previous dieties before Jesus. They are all nearly identical. Those are facts not opinion.

Its like you saying that our yearly calendar is theory because we haven't found all the galaxies. One doesn't have anything to do with the other. The calendar is based on what was known and found in its time. There is no denying it because its mathematically provable.

DPG21920

12-27-2008, 02:41 PM

"True life coaches are trained and experienced to ask the right questions to seek and discover the inner truths about their clients without any preconceived influences."

You are fired.

BacktoBasics

12-27-2008, 02:42 PM

I'm done. I'm not going to debate a mathematically provable calendar. This is fucking stupid. You guys who wish to debate the accuracy of math are quite possibly the dumbest people alive. I get it ok 2 + 2 = 4 is just a theory.

BacktoBasics

12-27-2008, 02:44 PM

"True life coaches are trained and experienced to ask the right questions to seek and discover the inner truths about their clients without any preconceived influences."

You are fired.Go fuck yourself. You ability to rationally argue anything is profoundly void of intelligence. You have done nothing but argue the validity of actual math as opinion. If anyone should be fired its you and anyone else who wants to argue that math is an unprovable theory. What a fucking moron you are. Good look with the rest of this thread.

DPG21920

12-27-2008, 02:45 PM

No but the bodies that are depicted in the calendar aren't theory. They're real right down to the mathematical precision used to calculate the rotation of the sun and earth as they're precieved through the ages using said calendar. What is in the calendar is exact without debate or question and can be mathematically calculated to check authenticity. The very dates depicted are identical to significant dates in Jesus's life. I'm debating those dates found in religion and the relation of Jesus Christ back to the relevance of the calendar and other similarities to all the previous dieties before Jesus. They are all nearly identical. Those are facts not opinion.

Its like you saying that our yearly calendar is theory because we haven't found all the galaxies. One doesn't have anything to do with the other. The calendar is based on what was known and found in its time. There is no denying it because its mathematically provable.

No it is saying that religion and beliefs have been around for a long time and new ones are constantly being developed. So you saying there is coincidences means absolutely nothing, because to be quite honest it is not surprising. That in no way makes one thing wrong. 2+2 = 4 does not mean there is no God.

To be able to map stars and seasons is very cool but that makes sense how we can do it. No one can explain with great certainty how the stars and seasons came to be. Which is the point I am trying to make.

DPG21920

12-27-2008, 02:46 PM

Go fuck yourself. You ability to rationally argue anything is profoundly void of intelligence. You have done nothing but argue the validity of actual math as opinion. If anyone should be fired its you and anyone else who wants to argue that math is an unprovable theory. What a fucking moron you are. Good look with the rest of this thread.

Who said math is a theory? Empty vessels often make the loudest noises, so keep on cussing and yelling.

2centsworth

12-27-2008, 02:51 PM

:lmao:lmaoprofessional life coach:lmao:lmao

is that the same as lust for baselinebum.:lmao

DPG21920

12-27-2008, 02:52 PM

No but the bodies that are depicted in the calendar aren't theory. They're real right down to the mathematical precision used to calculate the rotation of the sun and earth as they're precieved through the ages using said calendar. What is in the calendar is exact without debate or question and can be mathematically calculated to check authenticity. The very dates depicted are identical to significant dates in Jesus's life. I'm debating those dates found in religion and the relation of Jesus Christ back to the relevance of the calendar and other similarities to all the previous dieties before Jesus. They are all nearly identical. Those are facts not opinion.

Its like you saying that our yearly calendar is theory because we haven't found all the galaxies. One doesn't have anything to do with the other. The calendar is based on what was known and found in its time. There is no denying it because its mathematically provable.

You are obviously not into science. In science the word "theory" is not used to exemplify the traditional meaning. It is used to reference that science continually changes and adapts and gets re-worked as knowledge grows. It echoes my point that even though math is finite (to a certain degree because there are variables in math that are "unintended"), that everyone knows that there will be room for improvement and there is a possibility that the calculations are wrong. You still need significant proof to have scientific theory, but it leaves wiggle room.

BacktoBasics

12-27-2008, 02:53 PM

No it is saying that religion and beliefs have been around for a long time and new ones are constantly being developed. So you saying there is coincidences means absolutely nothing, because to be quite honest it is not surprising. That in no way makes one thing wrong. 2+2 = 4 does not mean there is no God.

To be able to map stars and seasons is very cool but that makes sense how we can do it. No one can explain with great certainty how the stars and seasons came to be. Which is the point I am trying to make.For the millionth time I'm debating the orgin of religion and Jesus not god. Because to prove where Jesus came from proves that your belief structure is non-existent.

I never argued that there is no chance of a higher power. There may very well be a higher power but its not in the likeness that you people so eagarly worship...because I know where the basis of modern worship came from. I argued that Jesus and modern religion is a farce. That Jesus was a direct depiction of previous gods that were originated from persona's manifested out of a provable mathematical calendar in which the dates of importance are identical to the very ones you worship. Only they existed thousands of years before you ever worshiped them in the persona of one Jesus Christ. Who is the son of "god".

You simply don't get it. None of you do and none of you ever will because you faith won't allow it.

Bigzax

12-27-2008, 02:53 PM

BacktoBasics

12-27-2008, 02:56 PM

You are obviously not into science. In science the word "theory" is not used to exemplify the traditional meaning. It is used to reference that science continually changes and adapts and gets re-worked as knowledge grows. It echoes my point that even though math is finite (to a certain degree because there are variables in math that are "unintended"), that everyone knows that there will be room for improvement and there is a possibility that the calculations are wrong. You still need significant proof to have scientific theory, but it leave wiggle room.
I understand your point here and I agree. However just as certain as the rotation of the earth around the sun is the calendar is equally if not more mathematically logical. The calendar has been put to the test and its "theory" has been founded to be mathematically verifiable. To me at that point its considered certifiable fact. Now if another variable arises it can be re-opened but as of right now the math justifies the body of work as being authentic and without debate or question. There is no unanswered variable within the calendar ok. It mathematically jives.

DPG21920

12-27-2008, 02:57 PM

For the millionth time I'm debating the orgin of religion and Jesus not god. Because to prove where Jesus came from proves that your belief structure is non-existent.

I never argued that there is no chance of a higher power. There may very well be a higher power but its not in the likeness that you people so eagarly worship...because I know where the basis of modern worship came from. I argued that Jesus and modern religion is a farce. That Jesus was a direct depiction of previous gods that were originated from persona's manifested out of a provable mathematical calendar in which the dates of importance are identical to the very ones you worship. Only they existed thousands of years before you ever worshiped them in the persona of one Jesus Christ. Who is the son of "god".

You simply don't get it. None of you do and none of you ever will because you faith won't allow it.

Once again we all get what you are saying but you fail to see why we do not feel that is enough. We understand that as time as gone on, people have morphed and changed things and they are based off of other cultures "gods" and "beliefs". That is only natural with the progression of time and cultures. That does not offer any proof that Jesus did not exist, only that you can trace the peoples way of thinking with other cultures way of thinking, which is not too surprising.

You have to get ideas from somewhere.

BacktoBasics

12-27-2008, 02:58 PM

this thread delivers...i haven't seen b2b owned so hard since he walked in on his ex mid-coitus...:lmao

and where is miamiheat? we are all still waiting for him to 'shatter' our world with his reality...:wakeup
Yes I who argued that mathematics proved the authenticity of the calendar and he who argued its reality despite the viable proof obviously renders me owned.

Stupid fat fuck. You're probably the dumbest most illogical one here.

BacktoBasics

12-27-2008, 03:01 PM

You have to get ideas from somewhere.I told you where the idea originated. You just explained in your own words how it morphed into modern day.

Thanks for proving my point.

You guys always want the smoking gun. You want the proof...the orgin. I provided it in a mathematically provable calendar that depicts every relevant date for Jesus right down to a perfect calculation and its relation to every diety before him.

There is nothing left to show you. I provided the murder weapon and the motive along with the body.

DPG21920

12-27-2008, 03:13 PM

I told you where the idea originated. You just explained in your own words how it morphed into modern day.

Thanks for proving my point.

You guys always want the smoking gun. You want the proof...the orgin. I provided it in a mathematically provable calendar that depicts every relevant date for Jesus right down to a perfect calculation and its relation to every diety before him.

There is nothing left to show you. I provided the murder weapon and the motive along with the body.

No you did not, if it was that easy, it would be more credible. But you are applying way to narrow of an explanation to way to broad of a topic. The point was not trying to change your mind (although I would like to),it was to acknowledge that I understood what you were trying to say.

Kori Ellis

12-27-2008, 03:17 PM

Kriz-Maxima

12-27-2008, 03:21 PM

What's funny is when people try to present FACTS to the Christians on why there is no God. Well, the whole basis of Christianity is FAITH and BELIEVING, not facts. So don't get your atheist panties in a bunch when Christians don't want to "debate" you on the facts.

+1

Faith backed with proof is not faith. It kind of beats the purpose.

BacktoBasics

12-27-2008, 03:22 PM

No you did not, if it was that easy, it would be more credible. But you are applying way to narrow of an explanation to way to broad of a topic. The point was not trying to change your mind (although I would like to),it was to acknowledge that I understood what you were trying to say.

Its plenty credible just not to faith based God Warriors and as of right now over 50% of the world doesn't believe. Which is a much greater number than before. People are slowly wising up.

What's funny is when people try to present FACTS to the Christians on why there is no God. Well, the whole basis of Christianity is FAITH and BELIEVING, not facts. So don't get your atheist panties in a bunch when Christians don't want to "debate" you on the facts.

I know. I hear you. I didn't want to get into this in the first place because no matter what is logically proved the end result is always the same regardless of the actual facts.

The sky is blue...

No its not its blueish white with a touch of green. You must be a liar.

Kori Ellis

12-27-2008, 03:24 PM

And don't tell me you guys weren't praying to God for the Spurs to score on the last possession on Christmas Day. :)

J.T.

12-27-2008, 03:30 PM

And don't tell me you guys weren't praying to God for the Spurs to score on the last possession on Christmas Day. :)

I prayed to god for UT to beat Texas Tech in college football this year, so I'm left with two possible conclusions:

1. God doesn't exist
2. God is a bastard who likes to fuck with people's emotions

Going with #2 for now. He can make it up to me by giving me a Colts Super Bowl.

The Reckoning

12-27-2008, 03:32 PM

as i said before, athiests are so out of spite. anyway, aren't there like a hundred other threads like this?

Borosai

12-27-2008, 03:33 PM

These are always tons of fun.

Is there a god? Who cares. People who want to believe -- and more importantly need to believe -- will do so regardless of what anyone says. And the same applies to those who don't believe. It's a useless question that leads to empty responses because, in the end, nobody knows.

My personal, empty response: I truly don't care. If there is a god, he/she/it is the epitome of a deadbeat parent. Do you pray? Great! At least it means you're still breathing. As far as its usefulness... well, Santa might someday bring you gifts too. In the end, people will always see what they want to see, whether it makes sense or not: a.k.a. faith, a.k.a. optimistic ignorance... you decide.

The Reckoning

12-27-2008, 03:39 PM

DPG21920

12-27-2008, 03:41 PM

Thank you Kori. You cannot have these discussions and say you do not want to take faith into account and completely dismiss it as worthless. Some elements of faith are deeply rooted in some of the most widely excepted philosophies.

DPG21920

12-27-2008, 03:43 PM

meh well to me prayer is another form of meditation...talking to the God within yourself. in my opinion, prayer isnt asking some dude in the sky to make everything perfect -- its about getting in touch with one's own divinity, so one will be better suited to take on seemingly impossible challenges.

Good outlook. This echoes what I said earlier. God and religion is just a guide. It is up to individuals to lead good lives and make good decisions. Neither God nor man is twisting your arm. I believe in God and the philosophies. Even IF it could be proven there is no God, I still think the principles hold true.

BULLSHIT

12-27-2008, 04:10 PM

It would be a start.
If you have the patience you could sit through the first part of the Zeitgeist. About 60-70% of part one gives a relatively accurate depection of the relation.If you can watch it and pay close attention to whats founded based on fact vs. opinion .

You actually mock others for believing a book written over a thousand years ago, and yet you want them to believe in a video made in 2006?

BacktoBasics

12-27-2008, 04:18 PM

You actually mock others for believing a book written over a thousand years ago, and yet you want them to believe in a video made in 2006?
The oldest known bible dates back to the 3rd or 4th century. Not thousands of years.

As a matter of fact we shouldn't buy into anything created in modern time. I'm going to look for my thousand year old copy of "The Earth is Flat" because its old.

I'm not even sure what your point is.

The Power Hour.

12-27-2008, 04:22 PM

Look fuck face I don't care to participate in a faith debate. Get it?.
you fucking moron.

These type of responses keep intelligent posters like myself from chiming in.

clambake

12-27-2008, 04:24 PM

religious faith isn't based on what you think.

it's based on what you've been told to think.

LaMarcus Bryant

12-27-2008, 04:24 PM

There is only one god, my god and his name is Corso.

spursfan09

12-27-2008, 04:27 PM

I have faith that God exists. If you don't then that is your choice. And believe me I have had some negative things happen in my life that would make it easier to not believe. Instead it helps me to believe God wanted it to be that way and with the power ofr prayer I don't go crazy from some of my experiences.

LaMarcus Bryant

12-27-2008, 04:32 PM

god is just a statistic

baseline bum

12-27-2008, 04:40 PM

You actually mock others for believing a book written over a thousand years ago, and yet you want them to believe in a video made in 2006?

LOL... this is a horrible troll for this topic, since Penn & Teller are huge atheists and did a show trashing the bible.

_tgdQM9MO5s

mouse

12-27-2008, 04:41 PM

religious faith isn't based on what you think.

it's based on what you've been told to think.

So who tells you to have faith in the Dallas Mavericks?

I always try to keep an open mind about life even when ChumpDumper is trying to convince me WTC 7 fell on it's own, or that jet fuel evaporated all the seats and human remains inside the pentagon, I still leave a crack in the door for any evidence he may present to me.

I for one found the Zeitgeist movie very interesting. At first it seemed like some sort of Atheist propaganda movie trying to get people to stop believing in GOD. But being an open minded person I allowed the film to explain itself.

Some of the facts in the film did make me question my faith. Like the story about Jesus being born on December 25th and coming back from the dead after 3 days was told in another country years before the bible says it took place.

After all you have to have pause and you must look at all the evidence in order to come to a conclusion. But keep in mind that pancake has two sides.

For example if someone digs up a Dinosaur and they find a knife in it's belly you have to say maybe Dinosaurs where around when man was on earth.

You can't be one sided on every issue or you will be labeled bias like many in this topic have already labeled themselves.

Another thing you have to watch out who you quote or you will be stereotyped like I was when I quoted Kent Hovind when he said the fossil chart was wrong. As soon as I reviled my sources I was labeled a Bible thumper.

That is like saying that the man who made the movie Zeitgeist was arrested for having a roach in his ashtray is a pot head therefore his movie is false.

Does it really matter if Ben Franklin was a closet homo, or that Einstein liked to be tea bagged? What does any of that have to do with the facts they have proven?

I have learned unless someone with an open mind and that can actually debate without saying fuck face every other post responds to a topic I may give my 2 cents but i don't see that in this topic just yet.

tlongII

12-27-2008, 04:46 PM

It depends on how you define "God."

mrsmaalox

12-27-2008, 05:29 PM

I agree it depends on one's definition of God. I definitely believe in a "higher power". But that power is within me.

mouse

12-27-2008, 05:50 PM

The oldest known bible dates back to the 3rd or 4th century. Not thousands of years.

How do you know he was talking about the bible? And second, there are many writings that are at least 3000 years old.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/09/060914-oldest-writing.html

As a matter of fact we shouldn't buy into anything created in modern time. I'm going to look for my thousand year old copy of "The Earth is Flat" because its old.

Then if that theory can be altered by Christopher Columbus then why can't Evolution be altered by Dr. Hovind?

I'm not even sure what your point is.

I think his point was the same way you have the right to believe in a video he has the right to believe in a book.

J.T.

12-27-2008, 07:11 PM

Oh, and in response to the OP:

That depends on what the definition of "is" is.

dbreiden83080

12-27-2008, 07:25 PM

mavs>spurs2

12-27-2008, 07:39 PM

balli

12-27-2008, 07:49 PM

I hate how some people rag on others for their belief in GOD. I know it's a controversial topic but so many people have found great strength in their faith. I know people that thanks largely to their faith overcame illness. Whether what they believe in or not is true, it doesn't matter. They believed in it strongly enough that it helped them get through a terrible time. And that's a great thing..

I wouldn't rag on someone for their belief on God, but I do think this conversation is entirely worthless and mock the idea that people would seriously take part in it.

Sorry guys, but a thread on ST isn't going to solve human kind's largest metaphysical question. Best to move on to something else, IMO.

phyzik

12-27-2008, 09:09 PM

I don't know what it is, but the hardcore athiests/agnostics always get unreasonably upset during these debates. It's almost as if deep down you guys really believe in God but hate him because you feel you were wronged at some point in your life or not loved as a child. Just my observation

I just prefer to have faith in myself rather than waste my time on a devine being that may or may not exist. If there happens to be a God, he should be able to judge me on my actions throughout my life and not be biased because I didnt go to his house every week or pray for his forgiveness on some trivial event in my life that I may have made a mistake on. I think its a waste of time to dwell on that crap.

Religion largely irks me as a whole because in some form it has been at the root of all wars, if not just a small reason for it. What makes one religion right and the other one wrong? Its just another form of racism and religious people, as a whole, are full of crap when they say they dont mind other's beliefs. One thing I'd like people to think about is what happens if there was a catastrophic event that nearly wiped out the human race and completely ignore all thoughts about the apocolypse.

Lets say there's a massive world war that causes all nukes to be launched and almost wipes out all civilization. Those that survived, after hundreds of years, lost all knowledge that we currently have.... then one day someone finds a book talking about a kid going to a magic school who defeats an evil wizard to save the world.... Or a book about the last man on earth where everyone else was a bloodsucking creature that he was trying to cure... Im not trying to convince anyone to abandon their faith here, its merely a mental exercise.

Another one I read somewhere in a book (cant think of the name). A baby is born but its body cant survive, ignoring all ethics the doctors save the brain and hook it up to a computer that has access to the internet but cant "talk" to other humans so its never explained why it is the way it is. As it grows it searches the internet and comes across religion one day. It reads that God is a being without a physical body and is all knowing and can smite people down. It eventually comes to the conclusion that it must be God since it knows everything and has the ability to destroy those that dont follow it (via access to the defense network of all nations).

MiamiHeat

12-28-2008, 12:48 AM

Mm. these seasoned fries are delicious.

Dr. Gonzo

12-28-2008, 01:01 AM

Does it really matter?

MiamiHeat

12-28-2008, 01:05 AM

Wrong. I doubt you can explain the real meanings behind the bible any more than I can explain the meaning of your belief in science or whatever you do or don't believe in.

I won't blame you for speaking in ignorance like that because you just don't know.

"Even a fool, when he holds his peace, is counted wise: and he that shuts his lips is esteemed a man of understanding." Proverbs 17:28

Now, let's start around the beginning, shall we?

The story of Moses leading the people out of Egypt....

Apparently, while wandering through the desert, Moses and the people were led by God through the desert by a "pillar of fire" by night and a "pillar of cloud" by day.

Now, you have the supernatural literal translation of it. You believe this happened : http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/2962/exod8thepillaroffireqg6.jpg

The reality?

Alexander the Great used an ingenious way to unify his campaigns during his many travels. During the night, he had his men carry a tall pole with fire on the very top to use as a signal to his men to follow. During the day, the men carried a tall pole with smoke for his men to follow.

Ancient Egyptians loved to travel in caravans by night due to the heat of the sun. They also used a tall pole with fire to guide them. The Egyptian military used this same technique, fire by night, smoke/cloud by day. As did the ancient Persians. In fact, this was THE way you safely traveled back then.

This was standard military practice for the Egyptians and many others.

So -2- poles or "pillars"..... One with Fire, the other with Smoke/Cloud.

Click here for reference (http://books.google.com/books?id=72ZR9KCh9lUC&pg=PA76&lpg=PA76&dq=ancient+egyptian+military+pole+of+fire&source=web&ots=LOq3pKB0Jv&sig=fU607ATjaEg6fG2tpl1ZHTBkcGs&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result)

Moses was more of a General, than a Prophet.

Evidence stares you in the face.

phyzik

12-28-2008, 01:09 AM

Does it really matter?

Considering that, at least in my belief, human evolution evolves around the understanding of its self, Id say an emphatic yes. Weather thats to prove there is a God or not, it would be a huge important step towards our evolution and understanding of the universe and our place in it.

MiamiHeat

12-28-2008, 01:15 AM

no more fries =(

Rogue

12-28-2008, 01:28 AM

the fact of the matter is if you solidly believe the existance of him then the God is really existing somewhere in the world, however if you don't believe his presense, then even if he is right standing in front you, he is still nothing.
God is just kind of belief that is created by the human beings. Human's God looks like a White man, rats' God may be a well-polished rat. It's not the God taht created the human beings, it's the human beings creat the God. The pathetic Humans beings are so afraid of the dangers around them, then they have to turn to someone who can give them some comfort, at least some mental comfort. Sometimes we may turn to the hollywood movies in seeking for some peace, but after we finish seeing the movie we always find it just a 100min long sh!t. Unlike the movies, God always makes us feel good, God is always kind to the human beings and give us whatever we want.
In fact, whatever the human beings created is just something that is used for making themselves feel good. The NBA games, NHL games, Hollywood sh!ts and anything else. But none of them can change the real lift a little bit, the life is still and you still have to pay thousands of dollars to the banks for the housing loan. God never helps you pay your debt, he never does any actual thing for us but we all like to thank him. God is definitely the luckiest man in the world.

phyzik

12-28-2008, 01:34 AM

I won't blame you for speaking in ignorance like that because you just don't know.

"Even a fool, when he holds his peace, is counted wise: and he that shuts his lips is esteemed a man of understanding." Proverbs 17:28

Now, let's start around the beginning, shall we?

The story of Moses leading the people out of Egypt....

Apparently, while wandering through the desert, Moses and the people were led by God through the desert by a "pillar of fire" by night and a "pillar of cloud" by day.

Now, you have the supernatural literal translation of it. You believe this happened : http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/2962/exod8thepillaroffireqg6.jpg

The reality?

Alexander the Great used an ingenious way to unify his campaigns during his many travels. During the night, he had his men carry a tall pole with fire on the very top to use as a signal to his men to follow. During the day, the men carried a tall pole with smoke for his men to follow.

Ancient Egyptians loved to travel in caravans by night. They also used a tall pole with fire to guide them. The Egyptian military used this same technique, fire by night, smoke/cloud by day. As did the ancient Persians. In fact, this was THE way you safely traveled back then.

This was standard military practice for the Egyptians and many others.

So -2- poles. One with Fire, the other with Smoke/Cloud.

Click here for reference (http://books.google.com/books?id=72ZR9KCh9lUC&pg=PA76&lpg=PA76&dq=ancient+egyptian+military+pole+of+fire&source=web&ots=LOq3pKB0Jv&sig=fU607ATjaEg6fG2tpl1ZHTBkcGs&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result)

Moses was more of a General, than a Prophet.

Evidence stares you in the face.

Definately fact. Especially about the part of Moses. Moses was more a military leader than a saint or messanger of God. It's a fact, at least according to the bible, no religious person can ever deny.

Alot of religious people have probably never even read the first testament. They want to believe its all love and good doing that the second testament writes about.

zhougc

12-28-2008, 01:54 AM

Yes, I think so.
hahaha

johnsmith.

12-28-2008, 02:27 AM

MiamiHeat

12-28-2008, 02:41 AM

How about the common sense approach? Lets say Joe Chalupa is wrong and we find out there is no GOD did anyone get hurt?

Now lets say we listen to Miami Heat and at the end we find out their was a GOD after all, Then what? we are fucked.

I rather take a flashlight on a hiking trip and never use it, then not take one and find out later that night i needed it.

You aren't listening to "miamiheat" .... you are reading factual historical evidence. the history on how your religion came to be. the truth.

You haven't thought it through. I am sure you can realize the effect that religion has even in 2008. Politics, everything. What do you mean "did anyone get hurt"

How about freeing our minds and bodies so we can really be alive and understand who we really are and what we really need to do?

How about being a good person not because a God told you to and because you don't want to go to hell, but because you UNDERSTAND, truly UNDERSTAND, compassion, temperance, justice?

Who is the greater man -

He who follows the Bible to be a good man because he fears God and doesn't want to go to hell or he who has no fear of anything and still does it anyway because he truly wants to?

A simple analogy -

Two children are in a room full of candy.

The first child is warned by his mother - "DO NOT EAT ANY OF THE CANDY, IF YOU DO, I WILL COME BACK WITH MY BELT AND BEAT YOU VIOLENTLY AND PUNISH YOU FOREVER"

The second child is told by his mother - "My son, please don't eat any of the candy. I won't be upset if you eat it. Nothing bad will happen to you if you eat it, but it's very important to me as your mother."

Neither child eats the candy.

Which child has the greater resistance of temptation?
Which child has the better understanding of human emotions, such as love?
Which child has the better understanding of obedience?

The second child.

Learn and do because you understand, not because you were told to. Religion was created to control you. You are treated like sheep and have to be cared for by a shepherd. Sound familiar?

Humanity's goal should be to enlighten EVERYONE so each person grows to really understand, not just because a fictional religion tells you 'God says so'

LaMarcus Bryant

12-28-2008, 03:41 AM

This thread is worthless without an insanely long-winded, self-righteous, condescending post from Hegamboa.

baseline bum

12-28-2008, 03:44 AM

TDMVPDPOY

12-28-2008, 04:51 AM

What if the real god is Allah, and he makes you serve out your eternity getting bukkakied by the Taliban for believing in the false god Jesus?

72 virgins baby

Jesus

12-28-2008, 08:38 AM

I agree it depends on one's definition of God. I definitely believe in a "higher power". But that power is within me.

And where do you think that power within you comes from my child? I forgive you all non-believers for you know not what you do.

JoeChalupa

12-28-2008, 10:02 AM

Just got back from 8am Mass and I feel good. Gracias a Dios.

MiamiHeat

12-28-2008, 10:13 AM

Did you read my post up there about the pillars of fire?

I haven't even started yet.

JoeChalupa

12-28-2008, 10:21 AM

Did you read my post up there about the pillars of fire?

I haven't even started yet.

Sure did. Did you read my previous posts? By all means, please continue and I will read your opinion and accept it for what it is but as I've said before. No matter what I read it will not shake my faith one bit but I'm sure it will be entertaining.
Carry on.

MiamiHeat

12-28-2008, 10:50 AM

I showed you historical fact, documented and verified that the Egyptians, Persians, many ancient civilizations used the fire by day, smoke by night technique.

That is not 'opinion'

Do you believe all sorts of history is opinion?

JoeChalupa : Sorry, but I don't believe that America fought the Japanese in World War 2. That is opinion.

JoeChalupa : Sorry, but I don't believe that soldiers fighting in the American Revolutionary War used muskets. That is opinion.

JoeChalupa : Sorry, but I don't believe that Rome used any formation called a 'phalanx'. That is just opinion

JoeChalupa

12-28-2008, 10:54 AM

What's funny is when people try to present FACTS to the Christians on why there is no God. Well, the whole basis of Christianity is FAITH and BELIEVING, not facts. So don't get your atheist panties in a bunch when Christians don't want to "debate" you on the facts.

+1 The fact is that B2B and MiamiHeat and all other non-believers cannot prove that God does not exist no matter how blue in the face they get trying to prove a point that cannot be proven.

JoeChalupa

12-28-2008, 10:56 AM

Um..

ok wait a second.

I showed you historical fact, documented and verified that the Egyptians, Persians, many ancient civilizations used the fire by day, smoke by night technique.

That is not 'opinion'

That is also not proof that God does not exist and it is still only your "opinion" that God does not exist. You haven't and never will prove to me otherwise. And that is an indisputable fact. Period.

MiamiHeat

12-28-2008, 10:56 AM

JoeChalupa : Sorry, I don't believe that any Egyptians believed in anything called "Ra" That is just opinion

JoeChalupa

12-28-2008, 10:58 AM

JoeChalupa

12-28-2008, 11:00 AM

JoeChalupa : Sorry, I don't believe that any Egyptians believed in anything called "Ra" That is just opinion

MiamiHeat: Sorry, but posting historical facts proves there is no God so that makes it factual and not an opinion.

:lol

MiamiHeat

12-28-2008, 11:02 AM

I just showed you historical facts that the Egyptians and their military, where Moses and his people came from, used a tall pole with a burning fire at the very top to travel by night, and during the day they used a pole with a burning pot, half-covered to create smoke.

Pole also can be described as a pillar.

The Israelites were led through the desert by a pillar of fire before them.

They were using the same techniques used by everyone at the time. It now becomes clear we are talking about something entirely different than a 'miraculous event'

JoeChalupa

12-28-2008, 11:02 AM

I'll wait for you to put more words in my posts.

JoeChalupa

12-28-2008, 11:03 AM

I just showed you historical facts that the Egyptians and their military, where Moses and his people came from, used a tall pole with a burning fire at the very top to travel by night, and during the day they used a pole with a burning pot, half-covered to create smoke.

Pole also can be described as a pillar.

The Israelites were led through the desert by a pillar of fire before them.

They were using the same techniques used by everyone at the time.

But you still haven't showed me anything that proves God doesn't exist. Do you not understand that?

MiamiHeat

12-28-2008, 11:05 AM

JoeChalupa

12-28-2008, 11:12 AM

If you were shown the history and the origins of what you believe in Christianity, and it shows that you were believing a lie, is that not proof that the christian religion is bullshit? By default, if the religion is bullshit, then that religion's God is bullshit.

If it's man-made, then you are believing a lie.

That is enough to prove it. Any denial of this is just dishonesty.

Again, that is not proof that God does not exist or that Jesus did not exist. IT IS NOT PROOF it is, as you would say, bullshit. It is not proof that I am believing a lie and you've done nothing, nada to shake my faith. God Bless.

MiamiHeat

12-28-2008, 11:14 AM

LOL, troll. You almost had me for a second there :)

JoeChalupa

12-28-2008, 11:15 AM

I watch all the religion shows on The History Channel on the origins or Christianity and I've read the Davinci Code and I've read and listened to many others who don't believe and I always listen and read with an open mind but not once have I ever doubted my faith and belief in God and your posts sure as hell haven't caused me to have any doubts at all. Believe as you will and more power to you.

MiamiHeat

12-28-2008, 11:16 AM

You are busted :P No trolling here today buddy! I'm on to you

JoeChalupa

12-28-2008, 11:18 AM

You are busted :P No trolling here today buddy! I'm on to you

Huh? The only thing you are on to is the fact that you've proven nothing and have seen the light. :lol
You had to refer to the "troll" card? :lmao

The Reckoning

12-28-2008, 01:29 PM

lol pillar of fire. thats a jew thing...

MiamiHeat

12-28-2008, 03:35 PM

Anyway, how about we just skip past the OT and talk about Jesus. To go back to the Jesus Fish symbol that is so popular on the back of vehicles and in churches.

Pagan sacred geometry and astrology.

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/8672/asasxe4.jpg

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/9302/asasa2rg8.jpg

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/2672/asasa3lc3.jpg

The only thing our ancestors were doing when they wrote the New Testament was passing on hidden meanings and knowledge.

"And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." Mark 4:9

or

"Those of you who can understand what I am REALLY saying, then hear me"

The Club

12-28-2008, 04:19 PM

Let's say Miami Heat you prove there is no GOD is that something to be proud of?

MiamiHeat

12-28-2008, 04:38 PM

"We who labor here seek only the truth"

The Club

12-28-2008, 05:07 PM

"We who labor here seek only the truth"

To bad you'll have to die to see it.

JoeChalupa

12-28-2008, 05:17 PM

Let's say Miami Heat you prove there is no GOD is that something to be proud of?

It cannot be proven.

MiamiHeat

12-28-2008, 05:24 PM

phyzik

12-28-2008, 05:41 PM

I dont need proof to know Santa Claus doesnt exist and any ammount of faith isnt going to change the fact that he doesnt exist.

JoeChalupa

12-28-2008, 05:53 PM

Yes it can. If Christian religion is proven to be man-made, then Christian God is man-made.

So it can be proven that Christian God does not exist because everything you know about that Christian God came from a man-made religion that made it all up.

I disagree and just because the Bible was written by human hands doesn't mean to me that it is as you say a "made up religion". It is a good point that you make but since I believe that God spoke through the prophets then it is not just made up.
But it does NOT prove that God doesn't exist.

JoeChalupa

12-28-2008, 05:54 PM

I dont need proof to know Santa Claus doesnt exist and any ammount of faith isnt going to change the fact that he doesnt exist.

Well, duh. But there was a real St. Nick.

MiamiHeat

12-28-2008, 05:55 PM

What about all of the historical evidence and meanings and explanations behind everything in the Bible? It's all explained in detail and with amazing connectivity.

All just a huge conspiracy coincidence? lol. Any further denial is just dishonesty and insanity.

I can show you a man who doesn't believe that America ever landed on the Moon. He could forever until his death bed, with ALL TYPES OF EVIDENCE AND HISTORICAL FACT given to him, just deny it and say he believes we never landed on the moon.

"I don't care if this stuff here you showed me says we did land on the moon, I believe all of this is fake and we never landed on the moon"

Does that mean we can't prove to him that we DID land on the moon or does it prove that the man is crazy or dishonest?

Obviously.

Rohirrim

12-28-2008, 06:00 PM

Spirituality gives people great strength.

To all the fags who like to act high and mighty for being so advanced as to not believe in a god, go fuck yourself.

MiamiHeat

12-28-2008, 06:01 PM

Learn to have inner strength through self-confidence and reality and not on some lala-land fairy tale religion that causes a lot of headaches on earth.

JoeChalupa

12-28-2008, 06:03 PM

What about all of the historical evidence and meanings and explanations behind everything in the Bible? It's all explained in detail and with amazing connectivity.

All just a huge conspiracy coincidence? lol. Any further denial is just dishonesty and insanity.

I can show you a man who doesn't believe that America ever landed on the Moon. He could forever until his death bed, with ALL TYPES OF EVIDENCE AND HISTORICAL FACT given to him, just deny it and say he believes we never landed on the moon.

Does that mean we can't prove to him that we DID land on the moon or does it prove that the man is crazy or dishonest?

Obviously.

Well, there you go again. We have PROOF that we landed on the moon. There is NO PROOF there is no God.
Can't you understand that? It is really very simple yet you cannot grasp that fact.
Now I can't prove to you there IS a God anymore than you can prove there is NOT a God. I'm sure you have faith that you are correct and I can assure that I have faith that I am correct.

Rohirrim

12-28-2008, 06:03 PM

Learn to have inner strength through self-confidence and reality and not on some lala-land fairy tale religion that causes a lot of headaches on earth.

My father's religion taught him complete inner-strength from which he has passed onto me. And I do mean complete, he is un-breakable in every facet of life.

I have seen religion/spirituality do wonders for people. They live full, wonderful, happy, fulfilling lives. Get over yourselves and let people believe what they want.

JoeChalupa

12-28-2008, 06:04 PM

Learn to have inner strength through self-confidence and reality and not on some lala-land fairy tale religion that causes a lot of headaches on earth.

What ever works for you in your lala-land my friend.

MiamiHeat

12-28-2008, 06:05 PM

JoeChalupa

12-28-2008, 06:16 PM

There is PROOF that CHRISTIANITY IS MAN-MADE and FAKE. BY DEFAULT, that means the God of Christianity DOES NOT EXIST.

Remember, MAN-MADE -AND- FAKE. Not "Man-made inspired by God", but FAKE.

By Default. Seriously, are you just trolling?

No I am not trolling. Are you? There in NO PROOF that God does not exist. You haven't shown a single shred of evidence and that is because you simply CAN'T. Stating that religion is man made is NOT proof that God doesn't exist.
Can't you just admit that? I've admitted I cannot prove to you that God exists can't you admit that you cannot prove he doesn't?

MiamiHeat

12-28-2008, 06:23 PM

Christianity copied/stole/borrowed many things.

Jesus was not the first and only dying and ressurecting Godman come to save us.

The list is quite large.

ALL of them came to earth as God made flesh, born a virgin, did miracles - even the same ones in the jesus story -, died, resurrected, etc.

All of them BEFORE Jesus. Some of them date back to EGYPT.

Same story. People created religions with the SAME EXACT THEME and the SAME EXACT dying and ressurecting Godman, with even the SAME EXACT BIRTHDAY and CELEBRATIONS.

All of them BEFORE Jesus.

This is PROOF that Jesus was just another one in the chain.

The reason Christianity lasted and the others didn't is because of Constantine. He made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire and thus was born the Roman Catholic Church.

The Roman Catholic Church was one of the most EVIL entities in human history. The Inquisition and burning of books was the MAIN reason the Jesus myth survived and the others didn't. The hidden meanings behind the story were stamped out and instead people were taught that Jesus really DID walk on water, etc.

That is proof that it's fake.

That's enough out of you JoeChalupa, you are a troll.

JoeChalupa : I am sorry NASA, but this is not sufficient proof that you landed on the moon. Just because you have this moon rock doesn't prove anything. It could have come from Earth. You can't prove it's from the moon. You just can't. I don't believe you.

JoeChalupa

12-28-2008, 06:32 PM

Bigzax

12-28-2008, 07:11 PM

"the list is sooo large, i'll go ahead and list none of them"

baseline bum

12-28-2008, 07:24 PM

Yes it can. If Christian religion is proven to be man-made, then Christian God is man-made.

So it can be proven that Christian God does not exist because everything you know about that Christian God came from a man-made religion that made it all up.

It's funny that Christians like to paint god with this incredibly wide brush when it comes to his existence, and then endow that extremely general god with all the traits of Christian god who peeks in on everyone and listens to every prayer. The god who is all-knowing and all-powerful (is that even possible? if he knows the future with 100% certainty, than he clearly cannot change his mind later and is therefore not all-powerful).

smeagol

12-28-2008, 08:03 PM

It is so obvious that if I cannot see God, then he does not exist. Why are we discussing this matter?

Supreme_Being

12-28-2008, 08:30 PM

Hem hem.. Stop arguing! It's me!

tp2021

12-29-2008, 04:29 AM

How often do God threads happen? Weren't you guys here for the Manu doesn't believe in God thread?

Kori Ellis

12-29-2008, 05:00 AM

Here's a pretty good God thread from back in the day ...

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2727&highlight=Thread

MiamiHeat

12-29-2008, 08:29 AM

"the list is sooo large, i'll go ahead and list none of them"

I was just annoyed at JoeChalupa's trolling.

Here is the basic outline of all of these figures :

* is God made flesh, the savior and "Son of God."
* His father is God and his mother is a mortal virgin.
* He is born in a cave or humble cowshed on December 25 before three shepherds.
* He offers his followers the chance to be born again through the rites of baptism.
* He miraculously turns water into wine at a marriage ceremony.
* He rides triumphantly into town on a donkey while people wave palm leaves to honor him.
* He dies at Eastertime as a sacrifice for the sins of the world.
* After his death he descends to hell, then on the third day he rises from the dead and ascends to heaven in glory.
* His followers await his return as the judge during the Last Days.
* His death and resurrection are celebrated by a ritual meal of bread and wine, which symbolize his body and blood.

Here's a list of some of them :

Osiris

Osiris’s “son” or renewed incarnation, Horus, shares the following in common with Jesus:

--Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Merion December 25 in a cave/manger with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.
--His earthly father was named “Seb” (“Joseph”).
--He was of royal descent.
--At at 12, he was a child teacher in the Temple, and at 30, he was baptized having disappeared for 18 years.
--Horus was baptized in the river Eridanus or Iarutana (Jordan) by “Anup the Baptizer” (“John the Baptist”), who was decapitated.
--He had 12 desciples, two of who were his “witnesses” and were named “Anup” and “Aan” (the two “Johns”).
--He performed miracles, exorcised demons and raised El-Azarus (“El-Osiris”), from the dead.
--Horus walked on water.
--His personal epithet was “Iusa,” the “ever-becoming son” of “Ptah,” the “Father.” He was thus called “Holy Child.”
--He delivered a “Sermon on the Mount” and his followers recounted the “Sayings of Iusa.”
--Horus was transfigured on the Mount.
--He was crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, and resurrected.
--He was also the “Way, the Truth, the Light,” “Messiah,” “God’s Anointed Son,” “the “Son of Man,” the “Good Shepherd,” the “Lamb of God,” the “Word made flesh,” the “Word of Truth,” etc.
--He was “the Fisher” and was associated with the Fish (“Ichthys”), Lamb and Lion.
--He came to fulfill the Law.
--Horus was called “the KRST,” or “Anointed One.”
--Like Jesus, “Horus was supposed to reign one thousand years.”

Furthermore, inscribed about 3,500 years ago [1500 years before Jesus’ alleged advent] on the walls of the Temple at Luxor were images of the Annunciation, Immaculate Conception, Birth and Adoration of Horus, with Thoth announcing to the Virgin Isis that she will conceive Horus; with Kneph the “Holy Ghost,” impregnating the virgin; and with the infant being attended bh three kings, or magi, bearing gifts. In addition, in the catacombs at Rome are pictures of the baby Horus being held by the virgin mother Isis—the original “Madonna and Child.”

Dionysus/Bacchus

Dionysus or Bacchus is thought of as being Greek, but he is a remake of the Egyptian god Osiris, whose cult extended throughout a large part of the ancient world for thousands of years. Dionysus’s religion was well-developed in Thrace, northeast of Greece, and Phrygia, which became Galatia, where Attis also later reigned. Although a Dionysus is best remembered for the rowdy celebrations in his name, which was Latinized as Bacchus, he had many other functions and contributed several aspects to the Jesus character:

--Dionysus was born of a virgin on December 25 and, as the Holy Child, was placed in a manger.
--He was a traveling teacher who performed miracles.
--He “rode in a triumphal procession on an ass.”
--He was a sacred king killed and eaten in an eucharistic ritual for fecundity and purification.
--Dionysus rose from the dead on March 25.
--He was the God of the Vine, and turned water into wine.
--He was called “King of Kings” and “God of Gods.”
--He was considered the “Only Begotten Son,” Savior,” “Redeemer,” “Sin Bearer,” Anointed One,” and the “Alpha and Omega.”
--He was identified with the Ram or Lamb.
--His sacrificial title of “Dendrites” or “Young Man of the Tree” intimates he was hung on a tree or crucified.

Attis of Phrygia

--Attis was born on December 25 of the Virgin Nana.
--He was considered the savior who was slain for the salvation of mankind.
--His body as bread was eaten by his worshippers
--His priests were “eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven.”
--He was both the Divine Son and the Father.
--On “Black Friday,” he was crucified on a tree, from which his holy blood ran down to redeem the earth.
--He descended into the underworld.
--After three days, Attis was resurrected on March 25 (as tradition held of Jesus) as the “Most High God.

Krishna of India

The similarities between the Christian character and the Indian messiah Krishna number in the hundreds, particularly when the early Christian texts now considered apocrypha are factored in. It should be noted that a common earlier English spelling of Krishna was “Christna,” which reveals its relation to “Christ.” Also, in Bengali, Krishna is reputedly “Christos,” which is the same as the Greek for “Christ” and which the soldiers of Alexander the Great called Krishna. It should be further noted that, as with Jesus, Buddha and Osiris, many people have believed and continue to believe in a historical Krishna. The following is a partial list of the correspondences between Jesus and Krishna:
--Krishna was born of the Virgin Devaki (“Divine One”) on December 25.
--His earthly father was a carpenter, who was off in the city paying tax while Krishna was born.
--His birth was signaled by a star in the east and attended by angels and shepherds, at which time he was presented with spices.
--The heavenly hosts danced and sang at his birth.
--He was persecuted by a tyrant who ordered the slaughter of thousands of infants.
--Krishna was anointed on the head with oil by a woman whom he healed.
--He is depicted as having his foot on the head of a serpent.
--He worked miracles and wonders, raising the dead and healing lepers, the deaf and the blind.
--Krishna used parables to teach the people about charity and love, and he “lived poor and he loved the poor.”
--He castigated the clergy, charging them with “ambition and hypocrisy . . . Tradition says he fell victim to their vengeance.”
--Krishna’s “beloved disciple” was Arjuina or Ar-jouan (Jouhn).
--He was transfigured in front of his disciples.
--He gave his disciples the ability to work miracles.
--His path was “strewn with branches.”
--In some traditions he died on a tree or was crucified between two thieves.
--Krishna was killed around the age of 30, and the sun darkened at his death.
--He rose from the dead and ascended to heaven “in the sight of all men.”
--He was depicted on a cross with nail-holes in his feet, as well as having a heart emblem on his clothing.
--Krishna is the “lion of the tribe of Saki.”
--He was called the “Shepherd of God” and considered the “Redeemer,” “Firstborn,” “Sin-Bearer,” “Liberator,” “Universal Word.”
--He was deemed the “Son of God” and “our Lord and Savior,” who came to earth to die for man’s salvation.
--He was the second person of the Trinity.
--His disciples purportedly bestowed upon him the title “Jezeus,” or “Jeseus,” meaning “pure essence.”
--Krishna is to return to judge the dead, riding on a white horse, and to do battle with the “Prince of Evil,” who will desolate the earth

Mithra of Persia

--Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25 in a cave, and his birth was attended by shepherds bearing gifts.
--He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
--He had 12 companions or disciples.
--Mithra’s followers were promised immortality.
--He performed miracles.
--As the “great bull of the Sun,” Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace.
--He was buried in atomb and after three days rose again.
--His resurrection was celebrated every year.
--He was called “the Good Shepherd” and identified with both the Lamb and the Lion.
--He was considered the “Way, the Truth and the Light,” and the “Logos,” [Word] “Redeemer,” “Savior” and “Messiah.”
--His sacred day was Sunday, the “Lord’s Day,” hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
--Mithra had his principal festival on what was later to become Easter.
--His religion had a eucharist or “Lord’s Supper,” at which Mithra said, “He who shall nto eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved.”
--“His annual sacrifice is the Passover of the Magi, a symbolical atonement of pledge of moral and physical regeneration.”

Furthermore, the Vatican itself is built upon the papacy of Mithra, and the Christian hierarchy is nearly identical to the Mithraic version it replaced . . .
. . . Virtually all of the elements of the Catholic ritual, from miter to wafer to altar to doxology, are directly taken from earlier Pagan mystery religions.

Zoroaster/Zarathustra

--Zoroaster was born of a virgin and “immaculate conception by a ray of divine reason.”
--He was baptized in a river.
--In his youth he astounded wise men with his wisdom.
--He was tempted in the wilderness by the devil.
--He began his ministry at age 30.
--Zoroaster baptized with water, fire and “holy wind.”
--He cast out demons and restored the sight to a blind man.
--He taught about heaven and hell, and revealed mysteries, including resurrection, judgment, salvation and the apocalypse.
--He had a sacred cup or grail.
--He was slain.
--His religion had a eucharist.
--He was the “Word made flesh.”
--Zoroaster’s followers expected a “second coming” in the virgin-born Saoshynt or Savior, who is to come in 2341 CE and begin his ministry at age 30, ushering in a golden age.

There are MORE. This is not the complete list.

Copy/paste

The explanation behind WHY Dec. 25 is important and everything else :

For instance, many of the world's crucified godmen have their traditional birthday on December 25th. This is because the ancients recognized that (from an earthcentric perspective) the sun makes an annual descent southward until December 21st or 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops moving southerly for three days and then starts to move northward again. During this time, the ancients declared that "God's sun" had "died" for three days and was "born again" on December 25th. The ancients realized quite abundantly that they needed the sun to return every day and that they would be in big trouble if the sun continued to move southward and did not stop and reverse its direction. Thus, these many different cultures celebrated the "sun of God's" birthday on December 25th. The following are the characteristics of the "sun of God":

* The sun "dies" for three days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops in its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north.
* In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin."
* The sun is the "Light of the World."
* The sun "cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him."
* The sun rising in the morning is the "Savior of mankind."
* The sun wears a corona, "crown of thorns" or halo.
* The sun "walks on water."
* The sun's "followers," "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass.
* The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High"; thus, "he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.
* The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30°; hence, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.
* The sun is hung on a cross or "crucified," which represents its passing through the equinoxes, the vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.

All of them just another form of....SUN WORSHIP. God's holy day is what? Sun-Day

I Love Me Some Me

12-29-2008, 09:10 AM

I was just annoyed at JoeChalupa's trolling.

Here is the basic outline of all of these figures :

* is God made flesh, the savior and "Son of God."
* His father is God and his mother is a mortal virgin.
* He is born in a cave or humble cowshed on December 25 before three shepherds.
* He offers his followers the chance to be born again through the rites of baptism.
* He miraculously turns water into wine at a marriage ceremony.
* He rides triumphantly into town on a donkey while people wave palm leaves to honor him.
* He dies at Eastertime as a sacrifice for the sins of the world.
* After his death he descends to hell, then on the third day he rises from the dead and ascends to heaven in glory.
* His followers await his return as the judge during the Last Days.
* His death and resurrection are celebrated by a ritual meal of bread and wine, which symbolize his body and blood.

Here's a list of some of them :

Osiris

Osiris’s “son” or renewed incarnation, Horus, shares the following in common with Jesus:

--Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Merion December 25 in a cave/manger with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.
--His earthly father was named “Seb” (“Joseph”).
--He was of royal descent.
--At at 12, he was a child teacher in the Temple, and at 30, he was baptized having disappeared for 18 years.
--Horus was baptized in the river Eridanus or Iarutana (Jordan) by “Anup the Baptizer” (“John the Baptist”), who was decapitated.
--He had 12 desciples, two of who were his “witnesses” and were named “Anup” and “Aan” (the two “Johns”).
--He performed miracles, exorcised demons and raised El-Azarus (“El-Osiris”), from the dead.
--Horus walked on water.
--His personal epithet was “Iusa,” the “ever-becoming son” of “Ptah,” the “Father.” He was thus called “Holy Child.”
--He delivered a “Sermon on the Mount” and his followers recounted the “Sayings of Iusa.”
--Horus was transfigured on the Mount.
--He was crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, and resurrected.
--He was also the “Way, the Truth, the Light,” “Messiah,” “God’s Anointed Son,” “the “Son of Man,” the “Good Shepherd,” the “Lamb of God,” the “Word made flesh,” the “Word of Truth,” etc.
--He was “the Fisher” and was associated with the Fish (“Ichthys”), Lamb and Lion.
--He came to fulfill the Law.
--Horus was called “the KRST,” or “Anointed One.”
--Like Jesus, “Horus was supposed to reign one thousand years.”

Furthermore, inscribed about 3,500 years ago [1500 years before Jesus’ alleged advent] on the walls of the Temple at Luxor were images of the Annunciation, Immaculate Conception, Birth and Adoration of Horus, with Thoth announcing to the Virgin Isis that she will conceive Horus; with Kneph the “Holy Ghost,” impregnating the virgin; and with the infant being attended bh three kings, or magi, bearing gifts. In addition, in the catacombs at Rome are pictures of the baby Horus being held by the virgin mother Isis—the original “Madonna and Child.”

Dionysus/Bacchus

Dionysus or Bacchus is thought of as being Greek, but he is a remake of the Egyptian god Osiris, whose cult extended throughout a large part of the ancient world for thousands of years. Dionysus’s religion was well-developed in Thrace, northeast of Greece, and Phrygia, which became Galatia, where Attis also later reigned. Although a Dionysus is best remembered for the rowdy celebrations in his name, which was Latinized as Bacchus, he had many other functions and contributed several aspects to the Jesus character:

--Dionysus was born of a virgin on December 25 and, as the Holy Child, was placed in a manger.
--He was a traveling teacher who performed miracles.
--He “rode in a triumphal procession on an ass.”
--He was a sacred king killed and eaten in an eucharistic ritual for fecundity and purification.
--Dionysus rose from the dead on March 25.
--He was the God of the Vine, and turned water into wine.
--He was called “King of Kings” and “God of Gods.”
--He was considered the “Only Begotten Son,” Savior,” “Redeemer,” “Sin Bearer,” Anointed One,” and the “Alpha and Omega.”
--He was identified with the Ram or Lamb.
--His sacrificial title of “Dendrites” or “Young Man of the Tree” intimates he was hung on a tree or crucified.

Attis of Phrygia

--Attis was born on December 25 of the Virgin Nana.
--He was considered the savior who was slain for the salvation of mankind.
--His body as bread was eaten by his worshippers
--His priests were “eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven.”
--He was both the Divine Son and the Father.
--On “Black Friday,” he was crucified on a tree, from which his holy blood ran down to redeem the earth.
--He descended into the underworld.
--After three days, Attis was resurrected on March 25 (as tradition held of Jesus) as the “Most High God.

Krishna of India

The similarities between the Christian character and the Indian messiah Krishna number in the hundreds, particularly when the early Christian texts now considered apocrypha are factored in. It should be noted that a common earlier English spelling of Krishna was “Christna,” which reveals its relation to “Christ.” Also, in Bengali, Krishna is reputedly “Christos,” which is the same as the Greek for “Christ” and which the soldiers of Alexander the Great called Krishna. It should be further noted that, as with Jesus, Buddha and Osiris, many people have believed and continue to believe in a historical Krishna. The following is a partial list of the correspondences between Jesus and Krishna:
--Krishna was born of the Virgin Devaki (“Divine One”) on December 25.
--His earthly father was a carpenter, who was off in the city paying tax while Krishna was born.
--His birth was signaled by a star in the east and attended by angels and shepherds, at which time he was presented with spices.
--The heavenly hosts danced and sang at his birth.
--He was persecuted by a tyrant who ordered the slaughter of thousands of infants.
--Krishna was anointed on the head with oil by a woman whom he healed.
--He is depicted as having his foot on the head of a serpent.
--He worked miracles and wonders, raising the dead and healing lepers, the deaf and the blind.
--Krishna used parables to teach the people about charity and love, and he “lived poor and he loved the poor.”
--He castigated the clergy, charging them with “ambition and hypocrisy . . . Tradition says he fell victim to their vengeance.”
--Krishna’s “beloved disciple” was Arjuina or Ar-jouan (Jouhn).
--He was transfigured in front of his disciples.
--He gave his disciples the ability to work miracles.
--His path was “strewn with branches.”
--In some traditions he died on a tree or was crucified between two thieves.
--Krishna was killed around the age of 30, and the sun darkened at his death.
--He rose from the dead and ascended to heaven “in the sight of all men.”
--He was depicted on a cross with nail-holes in his feet, as well as having a heart emblem on his clothing.
--Krishna is the “lion of the tribe of Saki.”
--He was called the “Shepherd of God” and considered the “Redeemer,” “Firstborn,” “Sin-Bearer,” “Liberator,” “Universal Word.”
--He was deemed the “Son of God” and “our Lord and Savior,” who came to earth to die for man’s salvation.
--He was the second person of the Trinity.
--His disciples purportedly bestowed upon him the title “Jezeus,” or “Jeseus,” meaning “pure essence.”
--Krishna is to return to judge the dead, riding on a white horse, and to do battle with the “Prince of Evil,” who will desolate the earth

Mithra of Persia

--Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25 in a cave, and his birth was attended by shepherds bearing gifts.
--He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
--He had 12 companions or disciples.
--Mithra’s followers were promised immortality.
--He performed miracles.
--As the “great bull of the Sun,” Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace.
--He was buried in atomb and after three days rose again.
--His resurrection was celebrated every year.
--He was called “the Good Shepherd” and identified with both the Lamb and the Lion.
--He was considered the “Way, the Truth and the Light,” and the “Logos,” [Word] “Redeemer,” “Savior” and “Messiah.”
--His sacred day was Sunday, the “Lord’s Day,” hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
--Mithra had his principal festival on what was later to become Easter.
--His religion had a eucharist or “Lord’s Supper,” at which Mithra said, “He who shall nto eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved.”
--“His annual sacrifice is the Passover of the Magi, a symbolical atonement of pledge of moral and physical regeneration.”

Furthermore, the Vatican itself is built upon the papacy of Mithra, and the Christian hierarchy is nearly identical to the Mithraic version it replaced . . .
. . . Virtually all of the elements of the Catholic ritual, from miter to wafer to altar to doxology, are directly taken from earlier Pagan mystery religions.

Zoroaster/Zarathustra

--Zoroaster was born of a virgin and “immaculate conception by a ray of divine reason.”
--He was baptized in a river.
--In his youth he astounded wise men with his wisdom.
--He was tempted in the wilderness by the devil.
--He began his ministry at age 30.
--Zoroaster baptized with water, fire and “holy wind.”
--He cast out demons and restored the sight to a blind man.
--He taught about heaven and hell, and revealed mysteries, including resurrection, judgment, salvation and the apocalypse.
--He had a sacred cup or grail.
--He was slain.
--His religion had a eucharist.
--He was the “Word made flesh.”
--Zoroaster’s followers expected a “second coming” in the virgin-born Saoshynt or Savior, who is to come in 2341 CE and begin his ministry at age 30, ushering in a golden age.

There are MORE. This is not the complete list.

Copy/paste

The explanation behind WHY Dec. 25 is important and everything else :

For instance, many of the world's crucified godmen have their traditional birthday on December 25th. This is because the ancients recognized that (from an earthcentric perspective) the sun makes an annual descent southward until December 21st or 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops moving southerly for three days and then starts to move northward again. During this time, the ancients declared that "God's sun" had "died" for three days and was "born again" on December 25th. The ancients realized quite abundantly that they needed the sun to return every day and that they would be in big trouble if the sun continued to move southward and did not stop and reverse its direction. Thus, these many different cultures celebrated the "sun of God's" birthday on December 25th. The following are the characteristics of the "sun of God":

* The sun "dies" for three days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops in its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north.
* In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin."
* The sun is the "Light of the World."
* The sun "cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him."
* The sun rising in the morning is the "Savior of mankind."
* The sun wears a corona, "crown of thorns" or halo.
* The sun "walks on water."
* The sun's "followers," "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass.
* The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High"; thus, "he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.
* The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30°; hence, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.
* The sun is hung on a cross or "crucified," which represents its passing through the equinoxes, the vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.

All of them just another form of....SUN WORSHIP. God's holy day is what? Sun-Day

Question (just a question)...why is Jesus the one that stuck?

MiamiHeat

12-29-2008, 09:16 AM

Read up on Constantine and the Catholic Roman Church.

The Roman Church was one of the most evil entities in human history. Read up on the Inquisition, the massive burning of books, what do you think that was about? Stamping out everything else.

Once Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire, replacing Mithraism (see up there), they used it as a vessel for power. Heck, the Pope was the one who was to divide the new world between Spain and Portugal!

Corruption is not new to the 20th and 21st centuries.

I Love Me Some Me

12-29-2008, 09:23 AM

Read up on Constantine and the Catholic Roman Church.

The Roman Church was one of the most evil entities in human history. Read up on the Inquisition, the massive burning of books, what do you think that was about? Stamping out everything else.

Was the Roman Inquisition really designed to stamp out ancient Greek, Egyptian, or Persian gods? It seems to me those belief systems were long gone by the time the inquisitions rolled around.

Why is that?

I Love Me Some Me

12-29-2008, 09:29 AM

Once Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire, replacing Mithraism (see up there), they used it as a vessel for power. Heck, the Pope was the one who was to divide the new world between Spain and Portugal!

Corruption is not new to the 20th and 21st centuries.

Mithraism was NEVER the official religion of the Roman Empire. At best, it was a fringe belief system (a cult, if you will) and seemingly exclusive to a sample of military personnel.

MiamiHeat

12-29-2008, 09:32 AM

Yes it was. For about 300+ years, Mithraism was the most popular and was OFFICIAL religion of the Empire.

About Constantine :

This enabled Emperor Constantine to merge the cult of Mithra with that of Christianity that was developing much. He declared himself a Christian but at the same time maintained his ties to the Mithra cult. He retained the title "Pontifus Maximus" the high priest. On his coins were inscribed: "Sol Invicto comiti" which means, commited to the invincible sun. This new blend of the two faiths, he officially proclaimed as Christianity. Christianity spread all over the Roman empire and Eastern Europe by massive persecution and brought and end to a variety of religions that flourished there. [...]

I Love Me Some Me

12-29-2008, 09:34 AM

Yes it was. For about 300+ years, Mithraism was the most popular and was OFFICIAL religion of the Empire.

link?

MiamiHeat

12-29-2008, 09:39 AM

MiamiHeat

12-29-2008, 09:40 AM

Was the Roman Inquisition really designed to stamp out ancient Greek, Egyptian, or Persian gods? It seems to me those belief systems were long gone by the time the inquisitions rolled around.

Why is that?

The Inquisition is just a later stage campaign. It was going on for CENTURIES.

"Christianity spread all over the Roman empire and Eastern Europe by massive persecution and brought and end to a variety of religions that flourished there."

Here we are in 2008, and we are victims of misinformation and corruption of our ancestors. We actually believe some guy named Jesus walked on water. Horrible, the things humans do to each other.

BacktoBasics

12-29-2008, 09:41 AM

+1 The fact is that B2B and MiamiHeat and all other non-believers cannot prove that God does not exist no matter how blue in the face they get trying to prove a point that cannot be proven.No but I have proved the orgins of Jesus and the bible. I even used a mathematical calendar thats 100% accurate and verifiable. By proving the orgins of modern religion and proving the basis for what Jesus was created on I did 100% prove that the god you worship is based in astrological myth.

I did not however prove that there isn't some type of higher power. There may very well be. I simply proved that your modern day religion is rooted in myth not reality.

My point was never to disprove a "godlike" higher power but to disprove the modern day religion and Jesus.

I don't see how you can deny every single significant date in Jesus's life being perfectly mirrored within the pagan calendar. Dec. 25th is Dec 25th whether you want to believe it or not its there and its not opinion or theory. Its right there for you to read. Along with every other significant date such as easter, the ressurection, passover and so forth. Every single date rooted in time long before the myth you believe. How do you deny a mathematically provable calculator in the form of a calendar. Blatant disregard for reality.

I Love Me Some Me

12-29-2008, 09:47 AM

Here is a picture of Mithras

http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/mom/img/18600.jpg

Familiar? Very familiar?

As for link, just do a quick google yourself... here's wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithras

"By the third century, Mithraism was officially sanctioned by the Roman emperors.[18] According to the fourth century Historia Augusta, Commodus participated in its mysteries: Sacra Mithriaca homicidio vero polluit, cum illic aliquid ad speciem timoris vel dici vel fingi soleat "He desecrated the rites of Mithras with actual murder, although it was customary in them merely to say or pretend something that would produce an impression of terror".[19]"

Been there....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitraism

Being 'sanctioned' as a religion, does not identify it as the official religion of the Roman Empire. It simply means the emperors recognized it as a valid religion, which was then rescinded by the end of the third century. Fringe religion...at best.

That's besides the point anyway. Why is the Jesus version of the story the one that stuck, even prior to the Inquisition?

MiamiHeat

12-29-2008, 09:49 AM

It was the most popular religion of it's time, There is no denying Mithraism was THE most popular, practiced by it's Emperors and the populace.

I already wrote up there :

The Inquisition is just a later stage campaign. It was going on for CENTURIES.

"Christianity spread all over the Roman empire and Eastern Europe by massive persecution and brought an end to a variety of religions that flourished there."

I Love Me Some Me

12-29-2008, 09:53 AM

It was the most popular religion of it's time, There is no denying Mithraism was THE most popular, practiced by it's Emperors and the populace.

You have provided NOTHING to support that opinion.

I already wrote up there :

The Inquisition is just a later stage campaign. It was going on for CENTURIES.

"Christianity spread all over the Roman empire and Eastern Europe by massive persecution and brought and end to a variety of religions that flourished there."

Christianity also survived persecution, starting with Nero. Why does the Jesus story survive, while other stories did not?

BacktoBasics

12-29-2008, 09:54 AM

Question (just a question)...why is Jesus the one that stuck?Because he was the most modern.

JC: I want to clear something up. I don't think any of us are attempting to prove that "god" doesn't exist. We have and in a multitude of ways proven that Jesus was a physical persona of many gods before him. All those gods that MH listed are rooted by date within the pagan calendar which is rooted in astrology. This isn't theory because you can mathematically verify the calendars authenticity to the cellestial bodies which are the basis for the personification of these gods...well before Jesus. We have provided you with facts. Verifiable facts that aren't opinion or theory. The facts are so good you can take a calculator and an astrologists and verify its claims of date and time. 2+2=4 is just at mathematically provable as the entire calendar. I don't know how else to tell you.

Not one time have said that we've proved god wasn't real we said that modern day religion and the basis of you worship is myth. Whether there is a higher power or not has yet to be determined but at this point the facts are there that provided you with proof that modern day Christianity and other religions aren't reality.

BacktoBasics

12-29-2008, 10:00 AM

MiamiHeat

12-29-2008, 10:12 AM

CHRISTIANITY was chosen by Constantine to unite the Roman Empire, who at this time was suffering from invasions of barbarians and significant losses in battles.

from the wiki page:

"Mithraism disappeared from overt practice after the Theodosian decree of 391 banned all pagan rites, and it apparently became extinct thereafter."

Theodosian helped stamp the rest out.

---------------------------------
http://www.gangleri.nl/articles/30/some-information-about-mithraism

When the torchbearers are the equinoxes, Mithras represents the solstitiae. His ‘birthday’ is celebrated at the winter-solstice. At that time the days is at its shortest, the night at it lengthiest, so the celebration is the return of the light(god): Mithras. Since Mithraism was a serious opponent of the young church of Christianity, Christianity executed its usual tactique, the feast of the “Sol Invictus” (invincible sun) became Christmas, the birth of Christ. In contradiction with holy pagan places and temples, Mithraeums were not Christianised or overbuild, but smashed to pieces. This caused most remains to be heavily damaged. The Christians did their job so ‘good’, that nowadays we don’t know too much about Mithraism.

----------------------------------------------

About Mithraism's popularity :

Only MEN are allowed to practice. Therefore it's already at a disadvantage to the new copycat Christianity that allows all to practice

-------------------------------------------

Answers.com

Mithraism
A religious cult that worshiped Mithras, especially popular among the Roman military and a strong rival to Christianity during the late Roman Empire.

-----------------------------------
http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/romanempire.html

Mithraism

One of the most popular religions of the Roman Empire, especially among Roman soldiers, was Mithraism.

-------------------------

BacktoBasics

12-29-2008, 10:31 AM

When the torchbearers are the equinoxes, Mithras represents the solstitiae. His ‘birthday’ is celebrated at the winter-solstice. At that time the days is at its shortest, the night at it lengthiest, so the celebration is the return of the light(god): Mithras. Since Mithraism was a serious opponent of the young church of Christianity,Christianity executed its usual tactique, the feast of the “Sol Invictus” (invincible sun) became Christmas, the birth of Christ. In contradiction with holy pagan places and temples, Mithraeums were not Christianised or overbuild, but smashed to pieces. This caused most remains to be heavily damaged. The Christians did their job so ‘good’, that nowadays we don’t know too much about Mithraism.

I want to point out the significance of the above. Mithra mirrored Christianity only Mithra predated Christ (obviously) which is why it was so threatening. The dates of significance such as the birth of christ, winter-solstice and so on are depicted in the pagan calendar. Every date of significance is laid out in the calendar. This is where these gods were originated. They took the dates and correlated them to astrological timepieces/eras and personified them in the likeness of humans.

We've all heard of our ancestors worshiping the stars. This explains how that originated.

the days is at its shortest, the night at it lengthiest, so the celebration is the return of the light(god) Seasons, earth rotation, light vs. dark. All rooted in early time thousands of years before organized religion ever took those dates and times for their own.

I Love Me Some Me

12-29-2008, 10:35 AM

Furthermore why does it matter that the story stuck. Other gods stuck just as long or longer. The real question you should be asking is why nearly every single date of significants mirrors a multitude of gods well before the name Jesus was ever mentioned. Everything Jesus has done or experienced was done before him. Then the next question is why is that. All of which is explained pretty well in this thread.

Long before the existance of Osiris, Dionysis, or any other Jesusesque story, prophesies of a forthcoming messiah had been told for quite some time, including his birth, death, and ressurrection. Including the performing of miracles. Including his virgin birth. It's not like anyone of these gods and their followers were the creators of their own story. They just tried to fill in the blanks in their own way. Jesus' story has survived and remained because it's actually true, documented by historical evidence.

As society evolves the ability to organize over larger areas have evolved. The ability of communication evolves. Intelligence evolves. This is why modern day organized religion has done as well as it has.

10 people preaching something has little value but 10,000 organized people preaching something carries much more weight. Obviously there is more to it but there is some simplicity behind it.

Of course. The more people support something, the more credibility is has. I do think that modern religion has distorted a lot of what is suppossed to be followed.

Simply put, one who claims to be a Christian must follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. It is those who claim to be Christian but do not following Christ's teachings who have done more damage to the cause of Christ than anything else.

The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians, who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and walk out the door, and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable.

— Brennan Manning

MiamiHeat

12-29-2008, 10:40 AM

Of course.
This is why Light = Good and Darkness = Evil

During the night, humans can't see and we are cold. In our distant past, we were scared of predators and victims of the harsh cold. Watch SURVIVORMAN or talk to any survivalist and ask them how IMPORTANT it is to stay warm and find shelter during the night.

Please come and save us, light of the world!

Ancients were very happy when the Sun came to illuminate the Darkness.

Here is another little fact

The planet VENUS, is known as "Son of the Morning", Lucifer. Lucifer was Satan's name as an Angel.

Venus appears as a bright light in the sky right before the Sun rises each day. Therefore, he 'heralds' God's coming.

However, after Lucifer's fall, he is now known as Satan, the son of the dawn. Bringer of darkness. He who heralds the DAWN of the Sun and darkness upon the world.

MiamiHeat

12-29-2008, 10:46 AM

Long before the existance of Osiris,, prophesies of a forthcoming messiah had been told for quite some time, including his birth, death, and ressurrection.
[/I]
What? Show me where. YOU HAVE PROVIDED NO PROOF OF THIS.

You do realize Osiris PRE-DATES Judaism, right? The prophecy I assume you are talking about is from the Jewish religion. I don't think you seem to understand how badly Osiris pre-dates this.

MiamiHeat

12-29-2008, 10:58 AM

All of these religions are one and the same.

The cast of characters change names and the details are tweaked around, but it's the same story used by politicians and priests to help them stay in power and rule the human race.

BacktoBasics

12-29-2008, 11:04 AM

Long before the existance of Osiris, Dionysis, or any other Jesusesque story, prophesies of a forthcoming messiah had been told for quite some time, including his birth, death, and ressurrection. Including the performing of miracles. Including his virgin birth. It's not like anyone of these gods and their followers were the creators of their own story. They just tried to fill in the blanks in their own way. Jesus' story has survived and remained because it's actually true, documented by historical evidence.

I'm going to address two things here.

They just tried to fill in the blanks in their own way

They filled in the blanks nearly identically as Jesus. Right down to the exact dates of significant moments such as birth, death, ressurection, passover so on and so forth. So it wasn't some fabricated way to fill in the blanks. The blanks as you call them were filled exactly the same way right down to the exact dates rooted in cellestial time pieces.

Jesus' story has survived and remained because it's actually true, documented by historical evidence.There is far more documented evidence of previous worship and its orgins than any tangible evidence of Jesus. As a matter of fact the one universal flaw in his existence is the astounding lack of evidence. There were known historians from his era all of which have seemingly left him out.

So this begs the question.

What evidence are you refering to? What historical evidence are you speaking of?

The bible?

I know that lots of thumpers like to use the bible as historical record but the simple fact of the matter is that there is no proof of any biblical word dating back to the time of chirst. It appeared hundreds of years later.

As far as historical record goes the dates and happenings that mirror Christ appeared in historical writings on rocks and walls in provable era's of time thousands of years before his existence referencing many dieties before him.

I Love Me Some Me

12-29-2008, 11:06 AM

What? Show me where. YOU HAVE PROVIDED NO PROOF OF THIS.

You do realize Osiris PRE-DATES Judaism, right? The prophecy I assume you are talking about is from the Jewish religion. I don't think you seem to understand how badly Osiris pre-dates this.

I'm not talking about the time it was WRITTEN, I'm talking about the time it was spoken.

Osiris was first referenced somewhere around 2500 BC. Enoch (one of the first to prophecy of a Messiah) was born some 1200 years earlier in 3700 BC. So, yes, the propecies existed long before Osiris allegedly did.

MiamiHeat

12-29-2008, 11:10 AM

1) Still waiting for proof of the prophecy with

"including his birth, death, and ressurrection. Including the performing of miracles. Including his virgin birth"

You don't have any.

2) Show me where Enoch actually existed. You better not source the Bible. As far as I know, that's the only place he exists. There are several apocryphal books named "Book of Enoch" but they don't even date to the Egyptian times. They are said to have been written after the 2nd century AD.

And even that wouldn't explain why all of the celebrations, dates, and rituals coincide with significant astrological events in the sky. Just forms of Sun worship.

Can you blame our ancestors? The Sun brought life, warmth, food.

gdenekas

12-29-2008, 11:15 AM

no. there isn't.
did it ever accure to any of you that maybe every sence everyone has been taking god out of everything that this world has been spiraling out of control....if you cant see whats going on around you then i feel sorry for you. i mean really, think about how the world is turning out. and its funny how there were things writen in the bible hundreds of years ago that are happening today....gee how could that be??? i guess they were using scince to come up with that back then. gee i just dont know. all i know is that keeping god in my life makes me a better person all around. dont you think that if everyone had god in there life that this would be like heven?? i think you know what is bad and what is good so you tell me where bad and good come from and who's side your on?

MiamiHeat

12-29-2008, 11:19 AM

did it ever accure to any of you that maybe every sence everyone has been taking god out of everything that this world has been spiraling out of control....if you cant see whats going on around you then i feel sorry for you. i mean really, think about how the world is turning out. and its funny how there were things writen in the bible hundreds of years ago that are happening today....gee how could that be??? i guess they were using scince to come up with that back then. gee i just dont know. all i know is that keeping god in my life makes me a better person all around. dont you think that if everyone had god in there life that this would be like heven?? i think you know what is bad and what is good so you tell me where bad and good come from and who's side your on?

:bang:bang:bang

And some of you wonder how people like this believe that a man walked on water?

JoeChalupa

12-29-2008, 11:27 AM

I actually normally just read and don't comment much because religion is a personal matter but then again I'm not ashamed of my religion either. But I do enjoy reading the many views and thoughts of others and I sure can understand how many have their own beliefs and think religion is a total joke and lie. I just happen to disagree that is all.
It doesn't bother me some think I'm an idiot for what I believe in or mock my religion and I don't think any less of them.
I believe in God and Jesus Christ and I'm Catholic and that's my story and I'm sticking with it.
Oh, and I'm not trolling as hard as it may be for some to believe....amongst other things.

BacktoBasics

12-29-2008, 11:32 AM

Here are few blurbs and then some additional information surrounding his existence. I doubt you guys are capable of reading through all of this.

The existence of Jesus as an actual historical figure has been questioned by a few scholars and historians, some of the earliest being Constantin-François Volney and Charles François Dupuis in the 18th century and Bruno Bauer in the 19th century. Each of these proposed that the Jesus character was a fusion of earlier mythologies.

The views of scholars who entirely rejected Jesus' historicity were summarized in Will Durant's Caesar and Christ, published in 1944. Their rejections were based on a suggested lack of eyewitnesses, a lack of direct archaeological evidence, the failure of ancient works to mention Jesus, and similarities early Christianity shares with then-contemporary religion and mythology.

No one has the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts. All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people. There occurs no contemporary Roman record that shows Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus. Devastating to historians, there occurs not a single contemporary writing that mentions Jesus. All documents about Jesus got written well after the life of the alleged Jesus from either: unknown authors, people who had never met an earthly Jesus, or from fraudulent, mythical or allegorical writings. Although one can argue that many of these writings come from fraud or interpolations, I will use the information and dates to show that even if these sources did not come from interpolations, they could still not serve as reliable evidence for a historical Jesus, simply because all sources derive from hearsay accounts.

Hearsay means information derived from other people rather than on a witness' own knowledge.

The editing and formation of the Bible came from members of the early Christian Church. Since the fathers of the Church possessed the texts and determined what would appear in the Bible, there occurred plenty of opportunity and motive to change, modify, or create texts that might bolster the position of the Church or the members of the Church themselves.

Take, for example, Eusebius who served as an ecclesiastical church historian and bishop. He had great influence in the early Church and he openly advocated the use of fraud and deception in furthering the interests of the Church [Remsberg]. The first mention of Jesus by Josephus came from Eusebius (none of the earlier church fathers mention Josephus' Jesus). It comes to no surprise why many scholars think that Eusebius interpolated his writings. In his Ecclesiastical History, he writes, "We shall introduce into this history in general only those events which may be useful first to ourselves and afterwards to posterity." (Vol. 8, chapter 2). In his Praeparatio Evangelica, he includes a chapter titled, "How it may be Lawful and Fitting to use Falsehood as a Medicine, and for the Benefit of those who Want to be Deceived" (book 12, chapter 32).

Here is some legitimate historical record from within 100 years of Jesus existence. So we are talking about less than a century of what is supposed to be the greatest following of a single man. Even the closest historical records are void of any tangible proof.

Josephus Flavius, the Jewish historian, lived as the earliest non-Christian who mentions a Jesus. Although many scholars think that Josephus' short accounts of Jesus (in Antiquities) came from interpolations perpetrated by a later Church father (most likely, Eusebius), Josephus' birth in 37 C.E., well after the alleged crucifixion of Jesus, puts him out of range of an eyewitness account. Moreover, he wrote Antiquities in 93 C.E., after the first gospels got written! Therefore, even if his accounts about Jesus came from his hand, his information could only serve as hearsay.

Pliny the Younger, a Roman official, got born in 62 C.E. His letter about the Christians only shows that he got his information from Christian believers themselves. Regardless, his birth date puts him out of the range of eyewitness accounts.

Tacitus, the Roman historian's birth year at 64 C.E., puts him well after the alleged life of Jesus. He gives a brief mention of a "Christus" in his Annals (Book XV, Sec. 44), which he wrote around 109 C.E. He gives no source for his material. Although many have disputed the authenticity of Tacitus' mention of Jesus, the very fact that his birth happened after the alleged Jesus and wrote the Annals during the formation of Christianity, shows that his writing can only provide us with hearsay accounts.

Suetonius, a Roman historian, born in 69 C.E. mentions a "Chrestus," a common name. Apologists assume that "Chrestus" means "Christ" (a disputable claim). But even if Seutonius had meant "Christ," it still says nothing about an earthly Jesus. Just like all the others, Suetonius' birth occurred well after the purported Jesus. Again, only hearsay.

Talmud: Amazingly some Christians use brief portions of the Talmud, (a collection of Jewish civil a religious law, including commentaries on the Torah), as evidence for Jesus. They claim that Yeshu (a common name in Jewish literature) in the Talmud refers to Jesus. However, this Jesus, according to Gerald Massey actually depicts a disciple of Jehoshua Ben-Perachia at least a century before the alleged Christian Jesus. [Massey] Regardless of how one interprets this, the Palestinian Talmud got written between the 3rd and 5th century C.E., and the Babylonian Talmud between the 3rd and 6th century C.E., at least two centuries after the alleged crucifixion! At best it can only serve as a controversial Christian and pagan legend; it cannot possibly serve as evidence for a historical Jesus.

The Shroud of Turin

The first mention of the shroud comes from a treatise (written or dictated) by Geoffroi de Charny in 1356 and who claims to have owned the cloth (see The Book of Chivalry of Geoffroi De Charny). Later, in the 16th century, it suddenly appeared in a cathedral in Turin, Italy. (Note that thousands of claimed Jesus relics appeared in cathedrals throughout Europe, including the wood from the cross, chalices, blood of Jesus, etc. These artifacts proved popular and served as a prosperous commercial device which filled the money coffers of the churches.)

Sadly, many people of faith believe that there actually exists scientific evidence to support their beliefs in the shroud's authenticity. Considering how the Shroud's apologists use the words, "science," "fact," and "authentic," without actual scientific justification, and even include pseudo-scientists (without mentioning the 'pseudo') to testify to their conclusions, it should not come to any surprise why a faithful person would not question their information or their motives. Television specials have also appeared that purport the authenticity of the shroud. Science, however, does not operate though television specials who have a commercial interest and have no qualms about deceiving the public.

Experts around the world consider the 14-foot-long linen sheet, which has remained in a cathedral in Turin since 1578, a forgery because of carbon-dating tests performed in 1988. Three different independent radiocarbon dating laboratories in Zurich, Oxford and the University of Arizona yielded a date range of 1260-1390 C.E. (consistent with the time period of Charny's claimed ownership). Joe Zias of Hebrew University of Jerusalem calls the shroud indisputably a fake. "Not only is it a forgery, but it's a bad forgery." The shroud actually depicts a man whose front measures 2 inches taller than his back and whose elongated hands and arms would indicate that he had the affliction of gigantism if he actually lived. (Also read Joe Nickell's, Inquest On The Shroud Of Turin: Latest Scientific Findings)

The pre-Christian cult of Mithra had a deity of light and truth, son of the Most High, fought against evil, presented the idea of the Logos. Pagan Mithraism mysteries had the burial in a rock tomb, resurrection, sacrament of bread & water (Eucharist), the marking on the forehead with a mystic mark, the symbol of the Rock, the Seven Spirits and seven stars, all before the advent of Christianity.

Even Justin Martyr recognized the analogies between Christianity and Paganism. To the Pagans, he wrote: "When we say that the Word, who is first born of God, was produced without sexual union, and that he, Jesus Christ, our teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven; we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter (Zeus)." [First Apology, ch. xxi]

Virtually all of the mythical accounts of a savior Jesus have parallels to past pagan mythologies which existed long before Christianity and from the Jewish scriptures that we now call the Old Testament. The accounts of these myths say nothing about historical reality, but they do say a lot about believers, how they believed, and how their beliefs spread

If the man was so widely followed why is there zero writings dated at the time of his existence referencing him?

JoeChalupa

12-29-2008, 11:34 AM

:bang:bang:bang

And some of you wonder how people like this believe that a man walked on water?

From what I can tell you think you walk on water. :lol

I Love Me Some Me

12-29-2008, 11:34 AM

They filled in the blanks nearly identically as Jesus. Right down to the exact dates of significant moments such as birth, death, ressurection, passover so on and so forth. So it wasn't some fabricated way to fill in the blanks. The blanks as you call them were filled exactly the same way right down to the exact dates rooted in cellestial time pieces.

I may be alone here, but I find the dates on which the events are celebrated to be irrelevant. It's highly likely (in fact, probable) that the dates we have decided to celebrate Christ's birth and resurrection are right in line with cellestial time pieces. That really does little (or nothing, actually) to produce evidence that they didn't actually happen. Only that they probably didn't happen on the dates we celebrate them.

I mean, we celebrated Washington's birthday on January 21st this year, and his actual birthday was February 22nd. Does that mean he was never born?

So this begs the question.

What evidence are you refering to? What historical evidence are you speaking of?

The bible?

I know that lots of thumpers like to use the bible as historical record but the simple fact of the matter is that there is no proof of any biblical word dating back to the time of chirst. It appeared hundreds of years later.

Why exclude the gospels as historical evidence? What about the epistles of Paul which were written within 10-20 years of the crucifixion? The writers of these accounts say they are eyewitnesses to the facts, and provide abundant geographical and cultural details.

What evidence has been produced to disprove the accuracy of the gospels or the epistles?

As far as historical record goes the dates and happenings that mirror Christ appeared in historical writings on rocks and walls in provable era's of time thousands of years before his existence referencing many dieties before him.

There is historical evidence of the legend and worship of these gods, but is there historical evidence of their actual existence on earth? (I ask because I don't know)

gdenekas

12-29-2008, 11:37 AM

:bang:bang:bang

And some of you wonder how people like this believe that a man walked on water?

let me ask you this...do you think that when people die there spirit will die too?

gdenekas

12-29-2008, 11:49 AM

its funny how all thess non believers have so much knowledge of god!

BacktoBasics

12-29-2008, 11:50 AM

I may be alone here, but I find the dates on which the events are celebrated to be irrelevant. It's highly likely (in fact, probable) that the dates we have decided to celebrate Christ's birth and resurrection are right in line with cellestial time pieces. That really does little (or nothing, actually) to produce evidence that they didn't actually happen. Only that they probably didn't happen on the dates we celebrate them.

The dates are important because they're shared with almost all the dieties before him. They also share importance because of how it relates to day vs. night and the personification of key figures in the bible.

I mean, we celebrated Washington's birthday on January 21st this year, and his actual birthday was February 22nd. Does that mean he was never born?

Your government at work here.

Titled Washington's Birthday, the federal holiday was originally implemented by the United States federal government in 1880 for government offices in the District of Columbia (20 Stat. 277) and expanded in 1885 to include all federal offices (23 Stat. 516). As the first federal holiday to honor an American citizen, the holiday was celebrated on Washington's actual birthday, February 22. On January 1, 1971 the federal holiday was shifted to the third Monday in February by the Uniform Monday Holiday Act. A draft of the Uniform Holidays Bill of 1968 would have renamed the holiday to Presidents' Day to honor both Washington and Lincoln, but this proposal failed in committee and the bill as voted on and signed into law on June 28, 1968 kept the name Washington's Birthday.

Why exclude the gospels as historical evidence? What about the epistles of Paul which were written within 10-20 years of the crucifixion? The writers of these accounts say they are eyewitnesses to the facts, and provide abundant geographical and cultural details.

We have no original copies. There is no reference to an actual physical eyewitness.

Great point. Hearsay no historical physical proof. This here is written better than I can say it.

The most "authoritative" accounts of a historical Jesus come from the four canonical Gospels of the Bible. Note that these Gospels did not come into the Bible as original and authoritative from the authors themselves, but rather from the influence of early church fathers, especially the most influential of them all: Irenaeus of Lyon who lived in the middle of the second century. Many heretical gospels existed by that time, but Irenaeus considered only some of them for mystical reasons. He claimed only four in number; according to Romer, "like the four zones of the world, the four winds, the four divisions of man's estate, and the four forms of the first living creatures-- the lion of Mark, the calf of Luke, the man of Matthew, the eagle of John (see Against the Heresies). The four gospels then became Church cannon for the orthodox faith. Most of the other claimed gospel writings were burned, destroyed, or lost." [Romer]

Elaine Pagels writes: "Although the gospels of the New Testament-- like those discovered at Nag Hammadi-- are attributed to Jesus' followers, no one knows who actually wrote any of them." [Pagels, 1995]

Not only do we not know who wrote them, consider that none of the Gospels existed during the alleged life of Jesus, nor do the unknown authors make the claim to have met an earthly Jesus. Add to this that none of the original gospel manuscripts exist; we only have copies of copies.

What evidence has been produced to disprove the accuracy of the gospels or the epistles?

Above.

There is historical evidence of the legend and worship of these gods, but is there historical evidence of their actual existence on earth? (I ask because I don't know)

No. Just like Jesus there is no historical proof of physical existence because they were all personifications of cellestial bodies centered around the Sun.

Whoops reading back I misunderstood the later part. I'm not going to erase it because its relevant but here you go. Great point on bringing up Paul. Strongest argument to date.

Epistles of Paul: Paul's biblical letters (epistles) serve as the oldest surviving Christian texts, written probably around 60 C.E. Most scholars have little reason to doubt that Paul wrote some of them himself. However, there occurs not a single instance in all of Paul's writings that he ever meets or sees an earthly Jesus, nor does he give any reference to Jesus' life on earth. Therefore, all accounts about a Jesus could only have come from other believers or his imagination. Hearsay.

Dr. Gonzo

12-29-2008, 11:54 AM

its funny how all thess non believers have so much knowledge of god!

No shit. It's like that douchebag Peewee's Lovechild. He always tries to act like he's too intelligent to believe in God yet he always says shit about how God hates people and is angry and shit. He talks about God more than most believers.

That would be like me walking around talking about leprechauns all the time. I don't believe in leprechauns so why the fuck should I talk about them. Except for right now when I'm making a point or when I reference the movie Leprechaun.

Jesus

12-29-2008, 11:56 AM

its funny how all thess non believers have so much knowledge of god!

http://heavensongministrypages.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/laughing_jesus2.jpg.w300h200.jpg

BacktoBasics

12-29-2008, 12:15 PM

No shit. It's like that douchebag Peewee's Lovechild. He always tries to act like he's too intelligent to believe in God yet he always says shit about how God hates people and is angry and shit. He talks about God more than most believers.

That would be like me walking around talking about leprechauns all the time. I don't believe in leprechauns so why the fuck should I talk about them. Except for right now when I'm making a point or when I reference the movie Leprechaun.I never laid claim to be a god expert. It was never about god. This was about the existence of Jesus. Where and how he originated and the same for organized religion.

I never said that I was out to prove that their was no god just out to prove that the belief structure was a fraud.

A godlike entity or higher power may very well exist. TBD in my opinion.

I Love Me Some Me

12-29-2008, 12:17 PM

Whoops reading back I misunderstood the later part. I'm not going to erase it because its relevant but here you go. Great point on bringing up Paul. Strongest argument to date.

Epistles of Paul: Paul's biblical letters (epistles) serve as the oldest surviving Christian texts, written probably around 60 C.E. Most scholars have little reason to doubt that Paul wrote some of them himself. However, there occurs not a single instance in all of Paul's writings that he ever meets or sees an earthly Jesus, nor does he give any reference to Jesus' life on earth. Therefore, all accounts about a Jesus could only have come from other believers or his imagination. Hearsay.

I think you quote like that on purpose to make it a pain in the ass to respond. :lol

Paul actually does record his interaction with Jesus' principle disciples (Peter and James). And while not stating that he had personal interaction with Jesus, the sources you've cited have still done nothing to disprove the accuracy of the gospels. Just becase a story is not firsthand, doesn't make it inherently untrue.

If fact, there are also non-biblical accounts of Jesus existence, including Tacitus' Annals, recording (historically) that Christ did indeed suffer under Pontius Pilate. You've referenced others already, including Flavius Josephus and the Talmud. What has been documented about Jesus outside of the Bible includes:

- He was from Nazareth
- He was wise and virtious
- He was crucified under Pontius Pilate
- His enemies called his miracles 'sorcery'
- He had disciples who multiplied rapidly

BacktoBasics

12-29-2008, 12:51 PM

I think you quote like that on purpose to make it a pain in the ass to respond. :lol

Paul actually does record his interaction with Jesus' principle disciples (Peter and James). And while not stating that he had personal interaction with Jesus, the sources you've cited have still done nothing to disprove the accuracy of the gospels. Just becase a story is not firsthand, doesn't make it inherently untrue.

If fact, there are also non-biblical accounts of Jesus existence, including Tacitus' Annals, recording (historically) that Christ did indeed suffer under Pontius Pilate. You've referenced others already, including Flavius Josephus and the Talmud. What has been documented about Jesus outside of the Bible includes:

He was from Nazareth
He was wise and virtious
He was crucified under Pontius Pilate
His enemies called his miracles 'sorcery'
He had disciples who multiplied rapidly

Well I'm willing to agree that the mere mention of something is of some merit but there is a profound lack of first person interaction. Even when there is a mention it borderlines on hearsay. No origional documentation, no original artifacts and no legitimate proof of phsyical existence. How is something so big so lacking in historical proof? Not one single first hand account referenced in original documentation.

Epistle of James: Although the epistle identifies a James as the letter writer, but which James? Many claim him as the gospel disciple but the gospels mention several different James. Which one? James served as a common name in the first centuries. More to the point, the Epistle of James mentions Jesus only once as an introduction to his belief. Nowhere does the epistle reference a historical Jesus.

Epistles of Peter: Many scholars question the authorship of Peter of the epistles. Even within the first epistle, it says in 5:12 that Silvanus wrote it. Most scholars consider the second epistle as unreliable or an outright forgery (for some examples, see the introduction to Peter in the full edition of The New Jerusalem Bible, 1985). In short, no one has any way of determining whether the epistles of Peter come from fraud, an unknown author also named Peter (a common name) or from someone trying to further the aims of the Church.

Of the remaining books and letters in the Bible, there occurs no other stretched claims or eyewitness accounts for a historical Jesus and needs no mention of them here for this deliberation.

As for the existence of original New Testament documents, none exist. No book of the New Testament survives in the original autograph copy. What we have then come from copies, and copies of copies, of questionalbe originals (if the stories came piecemeal over time, as it appears it has, then there may never have existed an original). The earliest copies we have came more than a century later than the autographs, and these exist on fragments of papyrus. [Pritchard; Graham] According to Hugh Schonfield, "It would be impossible to find any manuscript of the New Testament older than the late third century, and we actually have copies from the fourth and fifth. [Schonfield].

So we have a lack of first person reference from copies of copies of many copies.

There is absolutely no original documentation. I'm going to offer an opinion here ok.

B2B thinks: With no tangible proof and a complete lack of original documentation or physical evidence its hard to prove something exists especially when the precedent is set long before its alleged inception. Every date of significance has a precedent in cellestial time and is mathematically accounted for. /end opinion/

We are talking about a lack of original proof from a time thats chalk full of original documentation. A time where a single man was to have had the greatest following ever. How is there no tangible proof?

At this point I'd like you to provide something tangible. Some original documentation citing his authenticity. I've gone to lengths here to show you every source of significant reference is nothing more than a copy of a copy of a piece of something.

I would certainly indulge in anything original that could authenticate his existence.

Remember the old rumor circles we would participate in when we were kids back in the day.

One kid whispers something to another kid and then it goes down the line until the very last kid says the line. Only its completely different than the original kids phrase. This doesn't happen with original documentation.

mouse

12-29-2008, 12:52 PM

Just imagine if Miami Heat and the other non believers in this topic were to put 1/2 the energy and time they have used trying to prove there is no GOD to maybe finding a cure for Cancer we would all have a better life.

I think many of you are missing the point. It does not matter if Jesus was real or if the bible is true, it all comes down to one thing. Either you feel you are part of creation or some form of a creator, or you feel we evolved from space dust over billions of years and started out as a tadpole and slowly became humans.

It does not matter if you can prove the story of Jesus was told 6000 years earlier by the Chinese, or that the Virgin Mary was really a Divorced mother of two when she gave birth to Jesus.

What matters is you believe in something. A black man deep in Africa may not even know what a Bible is but his tribe may worship the sun. The point is they feel there is a higher power we cannot comprehend.

So before you load up on all your Goggle facts and quotes from the movie Zeitgeist. Keep in mind it really doesn't matter what you prove, at the end your either going to die and turn to dust or your soul is going to the after life.

Depending on what you believe at the time of death. So with that in mind lets create a scenario.

A:Your a non believer you know there is no GOD so therefore you live your life looking out for #1 you could care less about anyone but yourself. You didn't ask to be here so why should you give a shit?

After you die you turn to dust and it's all over.

B: You actually feel there is a creator so you try to live your life in a way that you won't be to ashamed if you ever have to face the GOD (or higher power) when you die. You try and make the best of your life and you treat others with respect and may even show emotions like love from time to time.

Now when you die your spirit can soar to the afterlife where you will meet others who shared your beliefs.

So you have to say to yourself, do I want to take that chance and find out after death there is a place for my soul, or should I just play it safe and maybe believe that we are not here because of some dust particles from a huge explosion.

It's kinda like buying insurance before you get on a plane. Chances are you may not need it but why take that chance?

BacktoBasics

12-29-2008, 01:02 PM

Little more on James. Your own people dispute it.

The Greek used in the epistle is fluent, eloquent and polished and is unlikely to have come from that of a son of Galilean carpenter whose mother tongue was Aramaic. Although some scholars have argued that most Jews during that era were bilingual, able to communicate in Aramaic and Greek, it is unlikely that such educated Greek would have come from someone of such a humble background.

James was accepted into the canon of the New Testament very slowly. It was not mentioned in the Muratorian canon, a list dating to about 200CE, which gave a list of inspired books. Indeed down to the fourth century, the church historian Eusebius (c260-c340) noted that James was among the "disputed books" (History of the Church 2:23:24-25). As we have seen elsewhere, one of the criteria for acceptance into the canon was apostolic authorship. Thus it is likely that many of the early church fathers did not think the epistle was written by James.

Now a pseudepigraphal work may be a forgery, the intention being to deceive the readers into accepting views which the person credited the work would never have held. Thus in the New Testament, II Thessalonians, the Pastoral Epistles and I & II Peter are rightly called forgeries for they advocated views which were never held by the persons the writings were attributed to. However a pseudepigraphal document may also have been written by a disciple of the person attributed as the writer. The use of the teacher's name is then a way to tell the readers that the writings originate from his school. Indeed some scholars have suggested that the epistle of James could be a collection of traditional teachings attributed to James and the Jerusalem Church. Indeed the disjointed nature of the writings in the epistle may point to this.

More on Peter. We are talking about the Church questioning its authenticity not anti-religious people like myself.

In both content and style this letter is very different from 1 Peter, which immediately precedes it in the canon. Acceptance of 2 Peter into the New Testament canon met with great resistance in the early church. The oldest certain reference to it comes from Origen in the early third century. While he himself accepted both Petrine letters as canonical, he testifies that others rejected 2 Peter. As late as the fifth century some local churches still excluded it from the canon, but eventually it was universally adopted. The principal reason for the long delay was the persistent doubt that the letter stemmed from the apostle Peter.

Among modern scholars there is wide agreement that 2 Peter is a pseudonymous work, i.e., one written by a later author who attributed it to Peter according to a literary convention popular at the time. It gives the impression of being more remote in time from the apostolic period than 1 Peter; indeed, many think that it is the latest work in the New Testament and assign it to the first or even the second quarter of the second century.

The authenticity of this letter was sharply disputed by the early Church, and it is still viewed with suspicion by many. This is partly because one section appears to be copied from the letter of Jude, partly because the general character is different from the first letter of Peter, and partly because competent scholars consider there are references in it to events which happened after Peter's death in approximately 64. It is of course, possible that we have here parts of a genuine letter of Peter with considerable later additions.

BacktoBasics

12-29-2008, 01:06 PM

I think many of you are missing the point. It does not matter if Jesus was real or if the bible is true, it all comes down to one thing. Either you feel you are part of creation or some form of a creator, or you feel we evolved from space dust over billions of years and started out as a tadpole and slowly became humans.

It does matter. Our governments and how society will evolve from this point forward is influenced by it. 100% relevant. Most religions don't step back and respect the higher power belief unless its within their structure.

If we could live in a world where simply believing in a higher power was enough then it would be a better world. We don't and never will.

It has and always will be about secular religion and its division.

angel_luv

12-29-2008, 01:07 PM

TDMVPDPOY

12-29-2008, 01:17 PM

I believe with all my heart that Jesus will reveal Himself and His Lordship to you, if you ask Him in faith to do so.

isnt that just like islam with the 72 virgins, i wonder has any of them virgins even been revealed yet or you can only see them when ur dead?

Oh, Gee!!

12-29-2008, 01:19 PM

I don't know.

mouse

12-29-2008, 01:19 PM

It does matter. Our governments and how society will evolve from this point forward is influenced by it. 100% relevant. Most religions don't step back and respect the higher power belief unless its within their structure.

If we could live in a world where simply believing in a higher power was enough then it would be a better world. We don't and never will.

It has and always will be about secular religion and its division.

I was talking about people in this topic, and the bottom-line. When you die either you think your going to become dust, or you think your spirit will go somewhere. That is really all that matters. All the political mambo jumbo and religious debates take a back seat when your on your death bed with just minutes left.

You want to go into who said what, and what was written, or what some scientist discovered then have at it I am sure there are many in the club who will satisfy your debate fix you seem to crave. In fact if I was not in extreme pain right now I would maybe grab a beer and partake in this topic and I am sure I can come up with many quotes, and facts that prove there is a creator just as you can come back with the same quotes, and facts that there is none.

We can go at it for hours. But the bottom-line will always be either your feel you have a soul or your just part of some baboon from 500 million BC.

And to be honest after reading many of the replies in this topic I am beginning to think man did evolve from the ape.

BacktoBasics

12-29-2008, 01:25 PM

I am sure I can come up with many quotes, and facts that prove there is a creator
Thats the point of the thread. You can't come up with any tangible physical proof or original documention of his existence.

I however can up with tangible proof and original documentation in many forms lending credence to the existence of gods with identical paths of life.

If you need additional reference for how important religion is just read what Angel Warrior wrote above.

These singular views and narrowminded approaches on life shape how we live in society.

So yeah on my death bed it doesn't mean shit but I'd like to live a better less influenced life right fucking now. I want my world to be shaped by quality decision making not one belief trumping another. How is real time not relevant to you?

TDMVPDPOY

12-29-2008, 01:28 PM

And to be honest after reading many of the replies in this topic I am beginning to think man did evolve from the ape.

we still have monkeys today that hasnt evolve to a human,

we need someone, ANYONE go fuck a monkey and see the outcome.....

mouse

12-29-2008, 01:31 PM

Thats the point of the thread. You can't come up with any tangible physical proof or original documention of his existence.

I however can up with tangible proof and original documentation in many forms lending credence to the existence of gods with identical paths of life.

If you need additional reference for how important religion is just read what Angel Warrior wrote above.

These singular views and narrowminded approaches on life shape how we live in society.

So yeah on my death bed it doesn't mean shit but I'd like to live a better less influenced life right fucking now. I want my world to be shaped by quality decision making not one belief trumping another. How is real time not relevant to you?

If your serious about me wasting my time trying to educate you then you must do me a favor. Go get a camcorder and make a short video of you on your knees begging GOD to prove he is real. I want you to say these words....

"Hey asshole!! your nothing but a lie! your not real, and I dare you to give me cancer, or do something to me or my family that will make me believe your real. Give me a stroke! let someone in my family die in the next 30 days. I dare you you piece of shit GOD!! Fuck you!!"

after you made the video put it on youtube or PM it to me and then I will take you serous,.

mouse

12-29-2008, 01:32 PM

we still have monkeys today that hasnt evolve to a human,

we need someone, ANYONE go fuck a monkey and see the outcome.....

I take it you never met MannyIsGod?

I Love Me Some Me

12-29-2008, 01:40 PM

So we have a lack of first person reference from copies of copies of many copies.

There is absolutely no original documentation. I'm going to offer an opinion here ok.

B2B thinks: With no tangible proof and a complete lack of original documentation or physical evidence its hard to prove something exists especially when the precedent is set long before its alleged inception. Every date of significance has a precedent in cellestial time and is mathematically accounted for. /end opinion/

We are talking about a lack of original proof from a time thats chalk full of original documentation. A time where a single man was to have had the greatest following ever. How is there no tangible proof?

At this point I'd like you to provide something tangible. Some original documentation citing his authenticity. I've gone to lengths here to show you every source of significant reference is nothing more than a copy of a copy of a piece of something.

I would certainly indulge in anything original that could authenticate his existence.

Remember the old rumor circles we would participate in when we were kids back in the day.

One kid whispers something to another kid and then it goes down the line until the very last kid says the line. Only its completely different than the original kids phrase. This doesn't happen with original documentation.

What of Tacitus' historical account in the Annals? Not first person, but certainly historically accurate, no?

Of course, with every answer provided there's going to be a laundry list of skeptics who dispute the authenticity of everything written and provided. Still, none have concluded the inaccuracy of the Gospels. Since the time they were written, there has been nothing discovered to undermine the accuracy of the Gospel accounts. Additionally, since Jesus' home of Galilee was destroyed by the Romans in 70 A.D, it's very possible that all first hand records of his existence were destroyed as well. Remember, the epistles were written within a decade of Christ's death. Is 10 years enough time to propogate a legend the size of Jesus Christ, and generate a following of such legend? Not likely.

MiamiHeat

12-29-2008, 01:44 PM

its funny how all thess non believers have so much knowledge of god!

I was born Roman Catholic. I was baptized and had my Holy Communion.

Around the age of 12, I became very serious about God. I began to read more and more of the Bible and of Roman Catholic approved works for children. I immediately began to notice the contradictions. I was even shocked to see most of the contradictions even IN the Churches.

At 13, and to the anger of my family, I switched from Catholicism to modern Protestant Christianity. I watched TBN everyday and read my bible when I wasn't playing with my friends or going to school.

At around 15 years old, I had read the entire Bible and watched many many hours of TV sermons and been to many hours of Church in person. I believed very seriously in God. Bishop TD Jakes, Rod Parsley, Benny Hinn, uh,,,the overweight guy I can't remember his name right now were my favorite pastors on TBN. I know all about the fuzzy feeling you get when you pray. I STILL know Psalm 91 by heart.

However, I began to realize things were wrong. The more I read the Bible, the more and more suspicious I became.

At around 16 years old, I realized it was all bullshit. I began to read history books and all sorts of literature. I read about 10 books on theology, Christianity in particular.

So don't try and ridicule me. I come from you, but I opened my own eyes.

What's stopping you? Fear?

TDMVPDPOY

12-29-2008, 01:46 PM

MiamiHeat

12-29-2008, 01:51 PM

let me ask you this...do you think that when people die there spirit will die too?

There is no spirit.

We are living creatures that are a part of this Earth. We are here for the ride. We are born, live, and die. Try to be happy and love people while you are here and enjoy the ride.

There is no supernatural meaning to us. We are a product of billions of cells that want to reproduce and survive.

ashbeeigh

12-29-2008, 01:51 PM

At around 15 years old, I had read the entire Bible and watched many many hours of TV sermons and been to many hours of Church in person. I believed very seriously in God. Bishop TD Jakes, Rod Parsley, Benny Hinn, uh,,,the overweight guy I can't remember his name right now were my favorite pastors on TBN. I know all about the fuzzy feeling you get when you pray. I STILL know Psalm 91 by heart.

That's where you went wrong. That channel is almost cult like.

mouse

12-29-2008, 01:52 PM

you know when you read the bible and it says the earth was created by GOD in 7 days,

now today scientists are saying the universe and any planet is made from the big bang or clashes of stars.....

so i guess the guys who wrote the bible is going to change the text from GOD creating the earth in 7 days to creating the universe in 7 days....

How do you know a day to GOD is not 2000 years? And if your a non believer it doesn't matter if GOD made a video of his works and stuck in on youtube your still going to find something to argue about that is why i only debate with people who actually try to see both sides of every issue, not some bitter person who doesn't like his life and is looking for someone to blame it on.

MiamiHeat

12-29-2008, 01:56 PM

That's where you went wrong. That channel is almost cult like.

Yeah, I was told not to take God too seriously by my family too.

My aunt told me I was becoming "fanatical"

My question was always the same :

If God exists, and he is the Lord of Lords and wants us to live a certain way, then why the hell aren't you listening to him? He WANTS you to do x and live x way. Your whole existence is owed to him and he really is the most important thing to worry about. If God exists, he is not an extracurricular activity. You don't just go to church on Sundays and pray when you want something. That's hypocritical and completely illogical.

Yeah, they never had an answer for me. I suspected it was because they didn't really believe deep down in their hearts.

Anyway, it's all forms of Sun worship. It's bullshit.

ashbeeigh

12-29-2008, 02:05 PM

Yeah, I was told not to take God too seriously by my family too.

My aunt told me I was becoming "fanatical"

My question was always the same :

If God exists, and he is the Lord of Lords and wants us to live a certain way, then why the hell aren't you listening to him? He WANTS you to do x and live x way. Your whole existence is owed to him and he really is the most important thing to worry about.

Yeah, they never had an answer for me. I suspected it was because they didn't really believe deep down in their hearts.

Anyway, it's all forms of Sun worship. It's bullshit.

Wow, I think someone's just a little bit bitter about their spiritual journey more then anything.

There's not just one way of finding the "answer" or getting the response you want. And obviously you were listening to some pretty "fanatical" people. I'm not going to try to change your mind about anything, I'm just going to tell you that sometimes I find my answers in the most unlikely of places and the most unlikely of times, like on a long peaceful walk, or while at work, or just watching TV. And sometimes the answer is "no," because I believe that that's what God has in store for me. And I have to have faith that that's the right thing for me. I may not be in the best place right now, financial, emotionally, or physically, but if I pray about it and try to change things in the way I am guided towards...then things will be alright. That's just the way I see it. I'm not going to bust out Bible verses and I'm not going to become all holier then thou. You can have your "I'm not a believer" big boy pants on. That's fine. Not a problem.

BacktoBasics

12-29-2008, 02:10 PM

Jesus is the one and only Son of God and the only Savior of the world.

I believe with all my heart that Jesus will reveal Himself and His Lordship to you, if you ask Him in faith to do so.

Reading the Gospel of John is an excellent place to start, in my opinion.John, the last appearing Bible Gospel, presents us with long theological discourses from Jesus and could not possibly have come as literal words from a historical Jesus. The Gospel of John disagrees with events described in Mark, Matthew, and Luke. Moreover the unknown author(s) of this gospel wrote it in Greek near the end of the first century, and according to Bishop Shelby Spong, the book "carried within it a very obvious reference to the death of John Zebedee (John 21:23)." [Spong]

Your own Bishop explains it better than I can.

MiamiHeat

12-29-2008, 02:11 PM

I am always going to be amazed at the desperation some people have to hold onto their beliefs even when staring into the face of evidence.

I mean, what are you scared of? That you lived a lie? so what? It's not your fault.

Fix it and grow.

MiamiHeat

12-29-2008, 02:17 PM

John, the last appearing Bible Gospel, presents us with long theological discourses from Jesus and could not possibly have come as literal words from a historical Jesus. The Gospel of John disagrees with events described in Mark, Matthew, and Luke. Moreover the unknown author(s) of this gospel wrote it in Greek near the end of the first century, and according to Bishop Shelby Spong, the book "carried within it a very obvious reference to the death of John Zebedee (John 21:23)." [Spong]

Your own Bishop explains it better than I can.

Enough was shown in this thread to prove it. The intelligent bunch will have understood already. The stragglers who still argue are the same ones who would have argued that the Earth is flat back then.

Nothing you say will ever do anything to those few. Dishonest, insane, pick whatever word you want to use for them.

2centsworth

12-29-2008, 02:20 PM

MiamiHeat

12-29-2008, 02:21 PM

Let me get this straight

You believe in Jesus but you idolize Tony Montana as your avatar?

haha. such dishonesty in people's hearts.

2centsworth

12-29-2008, 02:26 PM

Enough was shown in this thread to prove it. The intelligent bunch will have understood already. The stragglers who still argue are the same ones who would have argued that the Earth is flat back then.

Nothing you say will ever do anything to those few. Dishonest, insane, pick whatever word you want to use for them.

do a little research on anthony flew. btw, explain the complexity of a living cell.

2centsworth

12-29-2008, 02:27 PM

Let me get this straight

You believe in Jesus but you idolize Tony Montana as your avatar?

haha. such dishonesty in people's hearts.

so when did having tony montana in an avatar equate to idolizing? with that logic no wonder you are who you are.

JoeChalupa

12-29-2008, 02:30 PM

The topic of the thread was "IsThere A God" and nobody has proved that God does not exist while I've admitted that I cannot provide proof that he does.
Now Jesus is another matter which is based on my faith and I know there are holes and that the bible was written by man, yada yada, yada but it still doesn't change my beliefs in Jesus. Call me bull headed or naive or whatever but I'll die believing in him and I'll die as a Catholic too.

angel_luv

12-29-2008, 02:33 PM

JoeChalupa

12-29-2008, 02:35 PM

WTF does someone's avatar have to do with religion?

Alex Jones

12-29-2008, 02:36 PM

2centsworth

12-29-2008, 02:36 PM

WTF does someone's avatar have to do with religion?

according to the intelligent athiest it's your idol.:lol

JoeChalupa

12-29-2008, 02:40 PM

The Power Hour.

12-29-2008, 02:41 PM

This topic makes 9/11 look like a fire drill.

french bread

12-29-2008, 02:45 PM

Let me get this straight

You believe in Jesus but you idolize Tony Montana as your avatar?

And i thought the French were small minded.

MiamiHeat

12-29-2008, 02:57 PM

so when did having tony montana in an avatar equate to idolizing? with that logic no wonder you are who you are.

Look at yourself. You are a walking contradiction. A hypocrite.

You can't love and follow Jesus and the religion's teachings while enjoying things like Tony Montana in Scarface.

He's a criminal, a murderer. Lives the life of the devil, according to your religion.

You can't have both. Sorry, but you are a hypocrite.

You DONT EVEN UNDERSTAND YOUR OWN RELIGION. HOW PATHETIC!

JIM LAMPLEY

12-29-2008, 02:58 PM

God almighty how many times are you all going to go round and round on this God topic!?!?!?!? No one has landed any clear knock out punches but there have been plenty of nice jabs and ducks and misses for the judges to enjoy.

2centsworth

12-29-2008, 03:03 PM

Look at yourself. You are a walking contradiction. A hypocrite.

You can't love and follow Jesus and the religion's teachings while enjoying things like Tony Montana in Scarface.

He's a criminal, a murderer. Lives the life of the devil, according to your religion.

You can't have both. Sorry, but you are a hypocrite.

You DONT EVEN UNDERSTAND YOUR OWN RELIGION. HOW PATHETIC!

for being intelligent you are pretty dumb.:rollin

MiamiHeat

12-29-2008, 03:03 PM

MiamiHeat

12-29-2008, 03:04 PM

for being intelligent you are pretty dumb.:rollin
LEARN YOUR OWN RELIGION.

You are pathetic.

2centsworth

12-29-2008, 03:05 PM

Free. Your. Mind. Some cultures call it "nirvana", others call it a higher understanding.

Learn what our place on Earth REALLY is. Free yourself from FEAR, which is what religion uses to control you.

Your god : "Do what I say, or else!"

Let me ask you a question :

No matter what your son did, would you EVER throw him in a place to suffer for eternity?

Let me ask you something

For being the smartest person alive you understand so little.

phyzik

12-29-2008, 03:07 PM

People of faith often speak of their blessed assurance and the encouragement, hope etc that flows from it.

So, I am curious to know from the atheist and agnostics, what emotions does your " there may not be/ there is no God" conclusion evoke in you?

How does doubting/ denying/ disbelieving the existence of God better you?

It helps me to know that I am in control of my own destiny, that I have faith in my own abilities. I don't have to "pray" for something to happen. If it happens its because I made it happen. It allows me to have faith in myself and I don't have to use anything as a crutch to get by in life. When something goes wrong, I take responsibility for it.

Something goes wrong for a religious person its because of the devil or some other nonsense, not because they screwed up. For those that do understand that it was of their own doing when something goes wrong kudos to them, but why the double standard when something goes right? why does it have to be contributed to God and why do you thank him? Why not thank yourself and realize you alone are the one that made it happen.

What amuses me a lot also is the fact that a lot of people know Santa Claus (at least in the sense and spirit of Christmas) doesn't really exist. But yet when the same ideals that created Santa are applied to God they somehow throw all logic out the window and create a double standard.

As far as if there is a higher being, I guess no one will ever really know until the inevitable end of their lives. There may very well be a higher power but I just think any organized religion is getting it all wrong. I would hope that if this God is as benevolent as people claim him to be, he will be able to see me for who I am and how I lived my life. My not going to his church or worshiping him shouldnt have anything to do with it. Most of my life has paralleled the teachings of the 7 sins so I see no problem either way. I think they are a great guideline to how someone should live.

Honestly... from reading a lot of responses to this thread, it seems the overriding reason people cling to a religion is fear. Fear of Death. Fear of the Afterlife. Fear of not knowing.

If that's the case, I'm glad I don't follow any of it and if it helps you to cope with reality, then that's OK too, its just not for me. Keep in mind, I don't go around shouting my beliefs to people that religion is a farse. I'm just speaking my feelings on the subject since it was brought up.

2centsworth

12-29-2008, 03:07 PM

LEARN YOUR OWN RELIGION.

You are pathetic.

you mean learn your limited understanding of an imaginary religion, no thanks. when you want to learn what christainity is let me know. a good understanding will actually help you in these types of debates. Right now you have wikipedia stamped on your forehead.

MiamiHeat

12-29-2008, 03:09 PM

Don't post to me anymore, Tony Montana loving "Christian" boy. Go idolize a movie that is about a criminal who commits murder for money and deals drugs.

At least your friends will think you are 'cool'