Anthony LOLliver

[mystargtr34]

Isnt an NBA player.

Bring in Deke.

[BruceBowenFan]

:nope

[Osnofa]

True, Mutombo's finger > TolLOLiver body

[Warlord23]

Like I said in the other thread, neither is an athletic PF which is what we need. However, Deke at least brings defense and rebounding at the C spot. Tolliver can't defend, can't rebound, and his shot hasn't come along - so he isn't filling any need at this point other than reminding everyone how bad Matt Bonner played a year ago. Financial implications aside, Mutombo >> Tolliver for a roster spot

[loveforthegame]

I like his energy and hustle but we need more than that. He's not rebounding good enough and missing open shots.

[Ice009]

We didn't have many good looks in the second quarter except the shots Tolliver got and he missed them all and that's where we fell into a bit of a hole when he was on the court.

[benefactor]

Isnt an NBA player.

Bring in Deke.
I am so glad you can make this assessment at 23 years old. They probably should have told Bowen the same thing.

[Spurs Brazil]

I think Tolliver is not ready for the NBA. He shots great in Summer League and D-League but he can't hit anything on NBA game. I think he put too much pressure on himself.

I'd like too see Spurs try another player with that 15th spot.

[benefactor]

Tolliver has lots of good natural skills...but he needs to work on his offensive game. He may not be completely NBA ready now, but I see him turning into a fine energy player off the bench once he finds his niche offensively. If he stays through the year he might wind up back with the Toros...which can do nothing but good for him.

[Austin_Toros]

well, motombo would help the spurs a million times more than what tolliver can for this season. tolliver does some nice stuff, but im not convinced that he can play at the nba level- he definately can't shoot!

can someone tell me what position tolliver plays???
i alway he him listed as C, but doesnt he play on the perimiter, like a SF? theres no way he can guard the C spot.

[galvatron3000]

Neither is Luke Walton but he gets about $7 million a year and now he's supposely being shopped(God only knows who'd be stupid enough to take him from the triangle) so it's no big deal to me, he can be waived and we can sign someone else to fill our greater need.

[ManuTP9]

Deke is either going to Houston or Boston, because i was watching NBA tv and a guy from Houston Chronicle said Deke was really looking at going back to Rockets.

[DROB4EVER]

Tolliver sucks plain and simple! Every game hes 0 for whatever and 1 board. Cut him lose ASAP. The spur can be assured he can play with the Torors and no one will sign him.

[xellos88330]

I think that Tollivers problem is depth perception. He seems to do fine in gyms, not arenas.

[xellos88330]

Another thing, maybe after the death of his mother, he is putting more pressure on himself along with just being a contributing member of the team, to make his mother proud.

[jag]

I am so glad you can make this assessment at 23 years old. They probably should have told Bowen the same thing.

Bowen wasn't an NBA caliber player at 23...that's why he worked hard, went to Europe and developed his game.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Between missing open shots and giving Hakim Warrick whatever he wanted for a stretch in the second, Tolliver had as much to do with the Spurs falling behind as any individual player could.

[Ice009]

Bowen wasn't an NBA caliber player at 23...that's why he worked hard, went to Europe and developed his game.

Well maybe Tolliver needs to do the same. Go over to Europe and try and play in the big leagues over there against some great competition then come back over and have another shot at it.

[mrspurs]

I like his energy and hustle but we need more than that. He's not rebounding good enough and missing open shots.

Yep. If he doesnt start making those open shots. He wont be back next season.

[benefactor]

Bowen wasn't an NBA caliber player at 23...that's why he worked hard, went to Europe and developed his game.
My point proven. Tolliver needs time to develop. If Oberto was healthy there is a good chance he would still be with the Toros...and there is a good chance he will be back there before the end of the season.

[cherylsteele]

Did any of you really watch the game? Warrick was doing his thing against everyone not just Tolliver. I don't feel his "D" was all that bad as some have implied.

I thought tonight he played decently, he did make a couple of passes to TD from the top of the key.

[thispego]

Like I said in the other thread, neither is an athletic PF which is what we need. However, Deke at least brings defense and rebounding at the C spot. Tolliver can't defend, can't rebound, and his shot hasn't come along - so he isn't filling any need at this point other than reminding everyone how bad Matt Bonner played a year ago. Financial implications aside, Mutombo >> Tolliver for a roster spot

matt bonner didnt get minutes until this year. quit acting like you know shit

[z0sa]

Matt Bonner needs a couple days off and he'll be shooting the lights out again. Tolliver's hustle is great, but I think Bonner fills that position much better than he does.

Tolliver's stroke is the biggest problem right now (for him). He needs to nail those wide open looks they're getting for him if he wants his place in the NBA assured. Prolly got 3 open threes last night.

[Steve-O-Matic]

Tolliver is absolutely horrendous. How many times does he have to go 0-for-everything before our staff realizes that he can NOT shoot and brings nothing to the table as a basketball player. This guy has been riding the wave of a few good-yet-meaningless summer league games against non-NBA-caliber competition and is now shooting a grotesque 31% from the field and under 22% on 3's (allegedly his forte). Hell, my neighbor Tom could do that! He has no business being in this league, never mind playing for a title contender like the Spurs, and don't give me the "energy and hustle" bullshit either. Jack Haley had energy and hustled, but that didn't mean he was a legit NBA player. Fact of the matter is that they ALL have energy and hustle, that's why they play for the San Antonio Spurs in the National Basketball Association. Those traits are not negotiables. "Energy and hustle" are nothing more than two nice ways of saying that a guy lacks any actual basketball skills.

[Steve-O-Matic]

I am so glad you can make this assessment at 23 years old. They probably should have told Bowen the same thing.

And for every Bruce Bowen there are literally THOUSANDS of guys who were not NBA-caliber players at 23 and never became one later in life either. Your comment only goes to prove the point that Tolliver is highly unlikely (to put it mildly and conservatively) to ever become anything more that the useless waste of space that he is. This guy couldn't hit water if he shot the ball off of a boat.

[Kori Ellis]

I doubt the Spurs are going to get Mutombo. You guys do realize that Tolliver is just here because Oberto is hurt, right? The Spurs had planned on letting him develop in Austin for awhile. The relentless bashing of him in this thread is a tad overboard. He's just a young guy developing, like Mahinmi, Hairston and whoever else.

[Tully365]

Bashing the 15th guy on the roster is pretty lame. What do people expect-- a team composed of 15 all-stars, each averaging 20 ppg? Tolliver is filling in while two bigs (Mahinmi & Oberto) get healthy. Give the guy a break already.

[Steve-O-Matic]

He's just a young guy developing, like Mahinmi, Hairston and whoever else.
He is NOT developing. He's no better today than when the season started, and the case could easily be made that he has regressed. Just because he's young doesn't automatically mean that he is "developing."

[Steve-O-Matic]

Bashing the 15th guy on the roster is pretty lame. What do people expect-- a team composed of 15 all-stars, each averaging 20 ppg?
Nobody here has said they expect Tolliver to play at an "all-star" level or to average 20 ppg. Those are your words, not ours. What we (or at least I) DO expect is for him to play at a minimally serviceable level above the horrid liability that he has been. But apparently even that is too much to ask.

[Kori Ellis]

He is NOT developing. He's no better today than when the season started, and the case could easily be made that he has regressed. Just because he's young doesn't automatically mean that he is "developing."

The Spurs coaching staff thinks he is. They think his defense is better. Just because he's in a shooting slump doesn't mean he's not developing.

Anyway, I am not even saying that the guy belongs in the NBA or not, long term. But I'm saying that you shouldn't expect much at all from a guy who is supposed to be in D League but was just called up because the Spurs have injuries.

[SenorSpur]

The coaching staff had come to the conclusion that his time spent in the D-League helped improve his confidence. Since his call up, he's shot the ball poorly. However, I think you guys are being a bit hard on him. In fact, some of you have very short memories. The guy played pretty well at the outset of the season. He rebounded well, was an average defender, but demostrated intelligent passing skills.

Remember, he's not played a full season in the NBA yet. Therefore, he still IS a developing, young player. The only reason he's getting minutes now is because of Oberto's injury. Does he need to play better to justify his call up? Yes. Should he be cut? Hell no. Give the guy a break. Are you all going to crucify Gist, this time next year when he struggles?

[Steve-O-Matic]

The Spurs coaching staff thinks he is. They think his defense is better. Just because he's in a shooting slump doesn't mean he's not developing.

Anyway, I am not even saying that the guy belongs in the NBA or not, long term. But I'm saying that you shouldn't expect much at all from a guy who is supposed to be in D League but was just called up because the Spurs have injuries.

He is vastly undersized for a PF and is getting obliterated defensively by those bigger than him, which is most of the guys he's going up against. All you have to do is watch him play to see that. And yes, you SHOULD expect more from him, independent of the reasons why he's here in the first place. The fact of the matter is that he IS here and this is the NBA. Being something more than nothing is not too high of an expectation, whether he was in the D League a couple of weeks ago or not.

[Kori Ellis]

He is vastly undersized for a PF and is getting obliterated defensively by those bigger than him, which is most of the guys he's going up against. All you have to do is watch him play to see that. And yes, you SHOULD expect more from him, independent of the reasons why he's here in the first place. The fact of the matter is that he IS here and this is the NBA. Being something more than nothing is not too high of an expectation, whether he was in the D League a couple of weeks ago or not.

I expect nothing from him. He's a 15th man on a non(partially)-guaranteed contract. Who knows if he'll even be here in another 10 days. If the Spurs want to expect more from him, that's their business. I just know that they have been pleased at his ability to catch on to their defense. And yes, he's too small to play in the post at PF.

[Steve-O-Matic]

To say that you expect "nothing" from someone who is on an NBA roster is patently absurd. I'm sorry, but the cache of quality basketball players with material skills in this world is not THAT lacking.

[SenorSpur]

If, and this is a big if, Ian were healthy, Tolliver's shortcomings would be a moot point and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Pop likes a couple of bigs, who can spread the floor, on the roster. In my mind, Tolliver has assumed Bonner's backup spot in the rotation. While Bonner has been promoted to the Horry spot. Obviously, the coaching staff has eyed this young man for some time. I'm willing to wait it out to see if he improves over the course of the season. Unless, of course, a more proven player or promising rookie is brought in.

[Kori Ellis]

To say that you expect "nothing" from someone who is on an NBA roster is patently absurd. I'm sorry, but the cache of quality basketball players with material skills in this world is not THAT lacking.

Okay, I expect that he plays hard, listens to the coaching staff and knocks down some shots every once in a while. I don't expect that he can guard PFs in the post and I don't expect him to be a powerful force offensively. He's not ready to play against NBA competition and he might be cut soon. When you are the 15th man, you are usually inactive or in D League. He's only on the Spurs right now because of Oberto and Mahinmi's injuries.

[K-State Spur]

He is vastly undersized for a PF

The dude is 6'8. Half the PFs in the league are 6'8.

[Steve-O-Matic]

I'm well aware of why he's on the team, but that does not excuse his horrendous level of play. He's a PF and he's shooting 31%. Let that marinate for a few seconds. Then remind yourself that his meal ticket is that he's allegedly a "shooter" even though he's currently under 22% from 3. That is a horrific degree of underachievement, and to say that one shouldn't expect more than that from Tolliver or to "cut him a break" (as others have written) is beyond comical. As stated before, playing hard and listening to the coaches are non-negotiable traits - that's what they're SUPPOSED to do - so to use that as the litmus test for vetting Tolliver's worthiness or justifying his total non-contribution on the court is utterly ridiculous....much like Tolliver's play this season.

[ChumpDumper]

Damn, who declared a fatwa on Tolliver?

[CubanMustGo]

Apparently Steve-O-Matic.

[BuzzerBeater]

First year Spurs stats for Malik Rose and Anthony Tolliver.

Malik
G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF. RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF . PPG
53 0 8.1 0.434 0.333 0.639 0.8 0.9 1.7 0.4 0.4 0.1 0.83 1.50 3.0

Tolliver

G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG . BPG TO.. PF. .PPG
14 0 12.1 0.327 0.229 0.500 0.8 1.6 2.4 0.7 0.4 . 0.1. 0.36 0.80 3.5

Tolliver has more minutes per game than Malik did.
Malik already had a year's worth of NBA experience when joining the Spurs.
Is this comparison valid?

[ivanfromwestwood]

Did any of you really watch the game? Warrick was doing his thing against everyone not just Tolliver. I don't feel his "D" was all that bad as some have implied.

I thought tonight he played decently, he did make a couple of passes to TD from the top of the key.
i watched the game and yes his d sucks. he cant gefend the pick and roll if his life depended on it. he got beat 3 plays in a row before pop called a time out.

[timvp]

He is NOT developing. He's no better today than when the season started, and the case could easily be made that he has regressed. Just because he's young doesn't automatically mean that he is "developing."Do you watch Spurs games? Tolliver has progressed a huge amount. When preseason started, he had no idea what he was doing. His development from preseason to regular season was obvious. And now since his stint in Austin, he's rebounding better, boxing out, he's bringing more energy and he's even trying to alter shot at the rim.

Tolliver sucks right now but his suckage revolves mostly around his inability to knock down shots. As I said since the Spurs invited him to training camp, Tolliver making it as an NBA player depends on him shooting at least 37-38% on three-pointers. He hasn't done that thus far and that's why he doesn't look like an NBA player. The other areas of his game aren't great but those skills would be good enough if he were a knockdown three-point shooter.

The one thing Tolliver does extremely well that makes me hope that he makes it is his high-low passing. With Horry gone, Tolliver is by far the best big on the Spurs at passing it to TD from the key. His passing in general is actually really good for a big but his high-low passing is a talent the Spurs need -- especially if teams start to front TD on a consistent basis.

Overall, I'm not in favor of giving up on Tolliver just yet. You don't find many energy bigs who can pass and supposedly knock down threes. He fits what the Spurs need and all it would take for him to change a typical Spurs Fan's opinion of him is for him to start hitting more three-pointers.

Do I think he'll become a good enough three-point shooter at some point? Probably not -- I've been skeptical the whole time -- but if he does, he'd suddenly become helpful.

Oh and I especially wouldn't waive him now that Bonner has inexplicably regressed in every area over the last few weeks.

[xtremesteven33]

Do you watch Spurs games? Tolliver has progressed a huge amount. When preseason started, he had no idea what he was doing. His development from preseason to regular season was obvious. And now since his stint in Austin, he's rebounding better, boxing out, he's bringing more energy and he's even trying to alter shot at the rim.

Tolliver sucks right now but his suckage revolves mostly around his inability to knock down shots. As I said since the Spurs invited him to training camp, Tolliver making it as an NBA player depends on him shooting at least 37-38% on three-pointers. He hasn't done that thus far and that's why he doesn't look like an NBA player. The other areas of his game aren't great but those skills would be good enough if he were a knockdown three-point shooter.

The one thing Tolliver does extremely well that makes me hope that he makes it is his high-low passing. With Horry gone, Tolliver is by far the best big on the Spurs at passing it to TD from the key. His passing in general is actually really good for a big but his high-low passing is a talent the Spurs need -- especially if teams start to front TD on a consistent basis.

Overall, I'm not in favor of giving up on Tolliver just yet. You don't find many energy bigs who can pass and supposedly knock down threes. He fits what the Spurs need and all it would take for him to change a typical Spurs Fan's opinion of him is for him to start hitting more three-pointers.

Do I think he'll become a good enough three-point shooter at some point? Probably not -- I've been skeptical the whole time -- but if he does, he'd suddenly become helpful.

Oh and I especially wouldn't waive him now that Bonner has inexplicably regressed in every area over the last few weeks.


thats exactly what was thinking yesterday. He has the potential to have an Horry type role with the Spurs. High IQ, big man who can spread the floor and very smart passing skills.

The only thing that stinks is his inability to knock down OPEN shots. Im sure that Tim and Pop are hoping he finds his stroke really soon so they can put him in the rotation. IMO if he can knock down the 3 point shot at a good %, id put him in the rotation over Bonner.

[DPG21920]

Do you watch Spurs games? Tolliver has progressed a huge amount. When preseason started, he had no idea what he was doing. His development from preseason to regular season was obvious. And now since his stint in Austin, he's rebounding better, boxing out, he's bringing more energy and he's even trying to alter shot at the rim.

Tolliver sucks right now but his suckage revolves mostly around his inability to knock down shots. As I said since the Spurs invited him to training camp, Tolliver making it as an NBA player depends on him shooting at least 37-38% on three-pointers. He hasn't done that thus far and that's why he doesn't look like an NBA player. The other areas of his game aren't great but those skills would be good enough if he were a knockdown three-point shooter.

The one thing Tolliver does extremely well that makes me hope that he makes it is his high-low passing. With Horry gone, Tolliver is by far the best big on the Spurs at passing it to TD from the key. His passing in general is actually really good for a big but his high-low passing is a talent the Spurs need -- especially if teams start to front TD on a consistent basis.

Overall, I'm not in favor of giving up on Tolliver just yet. You don't find many energy bigs who can pass and supposedly knock down threes. He fits what the Spurs need and all it would take for him to change a typical Spurs Fan's opinion of him is for him to start hitting more three-pointers.

Do I think he'll become a good enough three-point shooter at some point? Probably not -- I've been skeptical the whole time -- but if he does, he'd suddenly become helpful.

Oh and I especially wouldn't waive him now that Bonner has inexplicably regressed in every area over the last few weeks.

He is a really smart player, and as you said I think the passing is something that could make him really valuable, especially if his shooting "comes back". I would give him up if we could get another back up big such as Deke or someone similar.

[Steve-O-Matic]

Tolliver has progressed a huge amount.

Tolliver sucks right now
Umm, okay.

[DPG21920]

Umm, okay.

Dude, just because someone was playing poorly momentarily does not make his other statement untrue.

I swear, sometimes it seems like no one that posts actually watch the games.

[CubanMustGo]

Umm, okay.

Way to quote out of context. Good job.

[Austin_Toros]

Tolliver is absolutely horrendous. How many times does he have to go 0-for-everything before our staff realizes that he can NOT shoot and brings nothing to the table as a basketball player. This guy has been riding the wave of a few good-yet-meaningless summer league games against non-NBA-caliber competition and is now shooting a grotesque 31% from the field and under 22% on 3's (allegedly his forte). Hell, my neighbor Tom could do that! He has no business being in this league, and don't give me the "energy and hustle" bullshit either. "Energy and hustle" are nothing more than two nice ways of saying that a guy lacks any actual basketball skills.

i think thats a bit harsh, but still valid. "energy and hustle" alone does not make someone an nba caliber player; this guy needs to learn how to shoot. he played some trashy summer league games - i wasnt impressed - and was somewhat average in the d-league. at this stage he probably shouldnt be getting minutes. forget his shooting and we roll right onto his D- dont get me started! hes undersized and a liability on that end of the floor.

however, he will probably improve. if he learns how to shoot he can be a solid player due to his nice size.


He is NOT developing. He's no better today than when the season started, and the case could easily be made that he has regressed.

ok, so maybe his improvements are not exactly clear, but i dont think he has "regressed." assuming he does improve, i see tolliver as a part of the spurs future.

just remember: clubs need to plan for the FUTURE and holding on the young players to see if they develop is only smart!

[Bruno]

Tolliver at low level games (summer league + D-league) :
3P : 37/71 (52%)

Tolliver at high level games (preseason + regular season) :
3P : 14/61 (23%)

It's quite puzzling given that these shots are mainly open 3's. The only explanation of a that big difference is something mental. Tolliver needs to solve that. You can also have some concerns on what he could do down the road in a playoff game with a lot of pressure.

[SenorSpur]

Tolliver at low level games (summer league + D-league) :
3P : 37/71 (52%)

Tolliver at high level games (preseason + regular season) :
3P : 14/61 (23%)

It's quite puzzling given that these shots are mainly open 3's. The only explanation of a that big difference is something mental. Tolliver needs to solve that. You can also have some concerns on what he could do down the road in a playoff game with a lot of pressure.

It's got to be something mental.

[ChumpDumper]

LJ's take is pretty illuminating. The Spurs are trying to make themselves a big man with a pretty specific, and pretty rare skill set. It's far too early to call the experiment a failure because this one is going to take a lot longer than two months.

Now whether to keep him or sign someone like Mutombo is a legitimate one. Of course, that can only be asked if a player like that actually wants to play for the Spurs.

[T Park]

Umm, okay.

Go back to Spursreport and STFU already.

[Spurs Brazil]

Tolliver at low level games (summer league + D-league) :
3P : 37/71 (52%)

Tolliver at high level games (preseason + regular season) :
3P : 14/61 (23%)

It's quite puzzling given that these shots are mainly open 3's. The only explanation of a that big difference is something mental. Tolliver needs to solve that. You can also have some concerns on what he could do down the road in a playoff game with a lot of pressure.

I also think it's mental. He was on fire in summer league and D-League but when he's in the NBA game, even preseason he can't shot.

I hope he can make 2 or 3 triples in one game to get it going

[T Park]

IMO hes too young to give up on. Now if he was 26 27 then yeah I'd say send him away and go full court press on Mutombo.

Hes got alot of potential though and maybe he will never pan out, but it can't hurt to give the kid time.

[Austin_Toros]

Go back to Spursreport and STFU already.

oh boy! here we go again with the lame Spursreport calls!
:sleep

[benefactor]

Timvp basically hit it on the head. Anyone who has watched him in games has seen him improve and recognized the skills he brings to the table. I agree with the mental aspect of his shooting. He really needs to find a way to break through this...because the other things he can do would really be helpful to our second unit.

[Flux451]

I would be more concerned about Bonner's perform then Tolliver's. Right now the way Bonner is playing, Tolliver is right where he needs to be, on the bench ready with energy. He just gets really excited and needs to chill. Probably thinking he has to be superman every play so he doesn't go back to the D-League. He is rushing everything.

I like his passing ability and energy. Reminds me of Malik a little.

Just hit those damn shots!!!

[DPG21920]

Like I said, I like Tolliver, but if the Spurs have a shot at Deke they have to get him. Tolliver cannot fill that role this year and we can always find someone like Tolliver. This all hinges on whether or not the Spurs FO really thinks this is the last title run for the core. If so, win now and Deke helps that more than Tolliver.

[DROB4EVER]

Tolliver is vaughns younger retarded brother!

[tp2021]

Tolliver is vaughns younger retarded brother!

Fail.

[ChumpDumper]

Tolliver cannot fill that role this year and we can always find someone like Tolliver.I agree with the first part, but who else is like him?

[024]

unless the spurs believe their team shooting percentages are too high and should bring someone in to lower them, tolliver should not be part of the rotation. what's interesting is that he plays very well in the d league so there may not be anything more he can learn over there. he needs nba experience but he sucks. he is definitely hurting the spurs more than helping. tolliver is listed as a PF/C but it's hard to imagine him effectively defending opposing centers. i think the spurs should let him go when he falls out of the rotation again. sending him to the d league won't help, so letting him go might give him the opportunity to develop on another team or in europe.

[SenorSpur]

I would be more concerned about Bonner's perform then Tolliver's. Right now the way Bonner is playing
Exactly. Bonner's emergence as a starter is one thing, but his performance against the upper-echelon teams has been subpar.

[DPG21920]

I agree with the first part, but who else is like him?

There are guys with his skillset as long as his shot is not falling. That basically makes him a "hustle" player who is undersized at PF.

Now, if his 3 ball is going in consistently, that is a different story....

[ChumpDumper]

There are guys with his skillset as long as his shot is not falling. That basically makes him a "hustle" player who is undersized at PF.

Now, if his 3 ball is going in consistently, that is a different story....What big man passes like Tolliver?

[z0sa]

What big man passes like Tolliver?

Oberto. Maybe if he could jump and shoot three's ...

[2centsworth]

right now Tolliver is shocked he's in the NBA. To add to that pressure, he plays for the freakin Spurs. Give him some time and maybe.. If I had to guess, I don't think he makes it, but based on my most recent predictions that means he'll be an all-star.

[2centsworth]

What big man passes like Tolliver?

I have seen one pass. Does he show this ability in Austin or have I missed a few passes?

[z0sa]

I have seen one pass. Does he show this ability in Austin or have I missed a few passes?

He isn't that great of a passer, but he nails those hi-lo lobs to Tim. Either he's really good at those, or watching Bonner trying to do it and fail a few times has made it look that way.

:depressed

[benefactor]

He isn't that great of a passer, but he nails those hi-lo lobs to Tim. Either he's really good at those, or watching Bonner trying to do it and fail a few times has made it look that way.

:depressed
You have obviously watched very little of him.

[baseline bum]

Do you watch Spurs games? Tolliver has progressed a huge amount. When preseason started, he had no idea what he was doing. His development from preseason to regular season was obvious. And now since his stint in Austin, he's rebounding better, boxing out, he's bringing more energy and he's even trying to alter shot at the rim.

Tolliver sucks right now but his suckage revolves mostly around his inability to knock down shots. As I said since the Spurs invited him to training camp, Tolliver making it as an NBA player depends on him shooting at least 37-38% on three-pointers. He hasn't done that thus far and that's why he doesn't look like an NBA player. The other areas of his game aren't great but those skills would be good enough if he were a knockdown three-point shooter.

The one thing Tolliver does extremely well that makes me hope that he makes it is his high-low passing. With Horry gone, Tolliver is by far the best big on the Spurs at passing it to TD from the key. His passing in general is actually really good for a big but his high-low passing is a talent the Spurs need -- especially if teams start to front TD on a consistent basis.

Overall, I'm not in favor of giving up on Tolliver just yet. You don't find many energy bigs who can pass and supposedly knock down threes. He fits what the Spurs need and all it would take for him to change a typical Spurs Fan's opinion of him is for him to start hitting more three-pointers.

Do I think he'll become a good enough three-point shooter at some point? Probably not -- I've been skeptical the whole time -- but if he does, he'd suddenly become helpful.

Oh and I especially wouldn't waive him now that Bonner has inexplicably regressed in every area over the last few weeks.

When I've watched Tolliver the last few games, the thing that really seemed to stick out to me is that his release is very slow on his jumpshot. I'm wondering how correctable that is, because it seems like a lot of the time he'll get an open shot and by the time he releases it, his man is back to make a good contest. I doubt there's that kind of talent in D-League to make him pay for that slow release that there is in the NBA. I know I'm basing it on a small sample size of his shots, but it has really stuck out IMO lately.

[z0sa]

You have obviously watched very little of him.

So he sucks at the hi-lo pass?

[DPG21920]

What big man passes like Tolliver?

That is one aspect and are you trying to say there will be no big men around next year either from: the draft, the d-league or overseas that can pass like Tolliver?

If it is his passing that endears him into the league then, yes I believe you will find someone that can do it adequately later on.

It is not as if his skill set is so rare (combo of shooting, passing and defense), that you can never find someone that can come close to duplicating what he does if you let him walk.

[ChumpDumper]

It is not as if his skill set is so rare (combo of shooting, passing and defense), that you can never find someone that can come close to duplicating what he does if you let him walk.Ok, who has at least the potential for that skill set at his age for the minimum?

Really, it won't break my heart if he's waived in favor of Mutombo, I'm just curious.

[Fingaroll44]

Did any of you really watch the game? Warrick was doing his thing against everyone not just Tolliver. I don't feel his "D" was all that bad as some have implied.

I thought tonight he played decently, he did make a couple of passes to TD from the top of the key.

No they dont actually watch the game. They look for mistakes from somebody other than the big 3 (sometimes even the big 3) and then say "player b sucks". If it IS one of the big three then they will say "trade him". Every player either is an all star or sucks...on ST anyway. And by the way get used to clueless posters w/ low bball IQ's proposing all kinds of roster moves that dont make sense.

[Fingaroll44]

The relentless bashing of him in this thread is a tad overboard.

its typical. and im not surprised.

[Fingaroll44]

Tolliver is absolutely horrendous. How many times does he have to go 0-for-everything before our staff realizes that he can NOT shoot and brings nothing to the table as a basketball player. This guy has been riding the wave of a few good-yet-meaningless summer league games against non-NBA-caliber competition and is now shooting a grotesque 31% from the field and under 22% on 3's (allegedly his forte). Hell, my neighbor Tom could do that! He has no business being in this league, never mind playing for a title contender like the Spurs, and don't give me the "energy and hustle" bullshit either. Jack Haley had energy and hustled, but that didn't mean he was a legit NBA player. Fact of the matter is that they ALL have energy and hustle, that's why they play for the San Antonio Spurs in the National Basketball Association. Those traits are not negotiables. "Energy and hustle" are nothing more than two nice ways of saying that a guy lacks any actual basketball skills.

STFU Jack Haley couldnt hustle to a buffet table....OMG and NO they dont all have energy and hustle...you dont know Jack S**t never mind Jack Haley LOL

[Fingaroll44]

He is NOT developing. He's no better today than when the season started, and the case could easily be made that he has regressed. Just because he's young doesn't automatically mean that he is "developing."

Just because he hasnt "developed" yet doesnt mean he wont either. You dont know s**t about bball if you can honestly sit there and say he is NOT developing. I say that because he hasnt been w/ the team long enough to come to that conclusion. LOL Are u serious? your expertise has you coming to that conclusion?
Heres a perfect example: Everybody said Matt Bonner sucks and im sure you were one of them. Now you suckas have to move to another member of the squad to bash because Bonner is a league leader in 3pt shooting and is even hauling down game saving rebounds now LOL Makes you all look like asses. Tolliver will probably have you lookin like an ass by this time next year too.

[timvp]

Oberto. Maybe if he could jump and shoot three's ...Oberto is a good passer but no one respects his jumper enough for him to be too effective in hi-lo situations. Oberto is more of a lo-lo passer.


I have seen one pass. Does he show this ability in Austin or have I missed a few passes?He's made good amount of quality passes in his sporadic minutes. In his first game alone he had two really good passes. Last game he had another very good pass.


He isn't that great of a passer, but he nails those hi-lo lobs to Tim. Either he's really good at those, or watching Bonner trying to do it and fail a few times has made it look that way.Bonner has made the pass a few times but it's unnatural for him. His first reaction is to always swing it to the corner ... which makes TD and Pop mad at him.


When I've watched Tolliver the last few games, the thing that really seemed to stick out to me is that his release is very slow on his jumpshot. I'm wondering how correctable that is, because it seems like a lot of the time he'll get an open shot and by the time he releases it, his man is back to make a good contest. I doubt there's that kind of talent in D-League to make him pay for that slow release that there is in the NBA. I know I'm basing it on a small sample size of his shots, but it has really stuck out IMO lately.That's a good observation and I mostly agree. However, Tolliver has missed a number of wide open threes with no one in his vicinity. But that could be due to his lowered confidence due to his slow release in general . . .


Ok, who has at least the potential for that skill set at his age for the minimum?

Really, it won't break my heart if he's waived in favor of Mutombo, I'm just curious.Exactly. If Tolliver is waived tomorrow I wouldn't care too much but his skillset is definitely interesting. An inexpensive hustle big who is a plus passer, potentially a three-point shooter and a quick enough defender that he can defend out on the perimeter? If nothing else, Tolliver has a rare skillset.

I can't think of another hustle big who has been available for the minimum in the last few years with the same skillset. I agree that Tolliver may not be an NBA level player but I can't agree with someone who says Tolliver's skillset is easily replaceable.

[Austin_Toros]

Now, if his 3 ball is going in consistently, that is a different story....

true. all tolliver needs is to work on his jumpshot and 3-ball so he can nail them in the nba. if he learns to shoot well from long range he should be a permanent roster player.
besides, it doesnt hurt to keep a guy like this floating around and developing. hes still got plenty of time to develop.

his energy and hustle makes him great for coming off the bench and providing a spark for the team. he may not turn into something great, but spurs should keep him, for now at least

[DPG21920]

Ok, who has at least the potential for that skill set at his age for the minimum?

Really, it won't break my heart if he's waived in favor of Mutombo, I'm just curious.

To be honest I do not follow college basketball closely. I have just seen throughout the years guys coming in and out of the league that have been good passers, hustle and bring good energy.

I am hard pressed to think of any names that fit your requirments, I was more assuming, based on what I have seen, that if we can win now with Deke, then you could at least come close to replicating Tollivers skill set at his age (maybe not all of it together, but pieces) later.

One guy that comes to mind is a Gary Forbes type player. But I have not seen him enought to get a great guage.


To be fair TimVP, no one respects Tollivers jumper right now either.

[DPG21920]

I have seen one pass. Does he show this ability in Austin or have I missed a few passes?

He has really showed some nice passing. That is something that has surprised me. He has done an array of nice passes: he has done hi-lo lobs, hi-lo bounce passes and even had a nice scoop dish on the fast break in a 3 on 1 situation.

[timvp]

One guy that comes to mind is a Gary Forbes type player. But I have not seen him enought to get a great guage.Forbes is a G/F.

[DPG21920]

Forbes is a G/F.

Isn't he like 6'7 and 230 lbs? What is Tolliver; something like 6'8 245?


Edit: I guess that is true, Finley is about the same size. Tolliver is still a bit undersized for the low block, but does well on the perimeter. Once again I am hard pressed to find a player like Chump mentioned with the all around game, but the point I was making is that Tolliver really has not shown the full game.

It has all come in pieces. I like him and I would not mind seeing him stay. But if Mutumbo is available, I think he is worth letting go because we can find guys who can bring a combo of what Tolliver has shown (either the shooting with the hustle, or the passing with the hustle and peremiter D...)

Tolliver has all 3, but he has yet to put it together (although I realize it is early).

[timvp]

Isn't he like 6'7 and 230 lbs? What is Tolliver; something like 6'8 245?

Forbes is 6-5.5 and 220. Tolliver is 6-8.5 and 250.

[DPG21920]

Forbes is 6-5.5 and 220. Tolliver is 6-8.5 and 250.

Are you talking about real life height, because he is listed as 6'7 on multiple sites:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/player/profile?playerId=15152

http://www.nba.com/dleague/playerfile/index.jsp?player=gary_forbes

[timvp]

Are you talking about real life heightYes, actual draft camp measurement height. Not invented height.

[DPG21920]

Yes, actual draft camp measurement height. Not invented height.

Why you acting like I just made it up to back up my point?

[SpursPreacher]

He is still raw and with any raw player it takes time to mold them.

[timvp]

Why you acting like I just made it up to back up my point?I'm talking about the height Forbes invented.

[DPG21920]

I'm talking about the height Forbes invented.

I never understood how players can just lie, then get measured, then still get listed under the lie.

George Hill even said that is his last interview. He said that one of the things that most surprised him was the height. He said guys listed at 6'2 were barely even 5'11.

[DPG21920]

He is still raw and with any raw player it takes time to mold them.

I am all for that, but this is a balance act. If what the FO said is true and this is the last title shot for this core you have to have some kind of a win now attitude.

I am not saying mortgage your entire future, but Mutumbo for Tolliver is small enough to possibly give the Spurs the edge this year with out completely sacraficing the future. I am all for Tolliver and have posted in his favor many times, but I just feel this would be the better move.

As mentioned before this all hinges on Mutumbo actually wanting to play for the Spurs. There are also other options such as waving Vaughn to make room which someone mentioned.