Israel wiping the floor with Palestine [Archive]

nkdlunch

12-30-2008, 01:42 PM

seems like noone cares in the US of what is happening, or are news agencies somewhat ignoring this event???

Obama seems to be dodging commenting too much on this too...

bbc.com

Gaza air campaign 'a first stage'
Israel's air assault on Gaza is "the first in several stages" of operations aimed at ending militant rocket fire, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has said.

As bombing continued for a fourth day, another top official said Israel was ready for "long weeks of action".

Palestinian officials say more than 360 people have been killed since Saturday. Four Israelis have died in rocket fire.

As EU officials prepared to discuss the crisis, some reports from Israel said it was considering a temporary truce.

Mr Olmert was set to discuss the idea of a 48-hour suspension, suggested by France, with his officials later in the day, the French news agency AFP said.

But Infrastructure Minister Benjamin Ben-Eliezer warned a truce would allow militant group Hamas - which controls Gaza - "to regain strength... and prepare an even stronger attack against Israel".

US President Bush agreed in a telephone conversation with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas that for any ceasefire to be effective it had to respected by Hamas, the White House said.

A BBC reporter says Israeli tanks and troops are massed along Gaza's border.

Correspondents say this could be a prelude to ground operations, but could also be intended to build pressure on Hamas.

European Union foreign policy chief Javier Solana called for an immediate ceasefire and the opening of crossings to allow humanitarian aid into Gaza, as EU foreign ministers prepared to discuss the crisis in Paris.

'Defenceless population'

On Tuesday, Israeli jets attacked more targets linked to Hamas, hitting a number of government buildings and security installations.

At least 10 people were killed and 40 said to have been wounded in the raids.

One air strike killed two sisters, the eldest aged 11, riding in a donkey cart in Beit Hanoun, northern Gaza, Palestinian medical sources said.

The UN has called for an investigation into the attacks, which are causing heavy civilian casualties. It says at least 62 of the Palestinians killed so far were women and children.

Richard Falk - the UN special rapporteur for human rights in the Palestinian territories - said the international community must put more pressure on Israel to end its assault.

"Israel is committing a shocking series of atrocities by using modern weaponry against a defenceless population - attacking a population that has been enduring a severe blockade for many months," Mr Falk said in a BBC interview.

But Israeli officials said there was more to come.

The Israeli military "has made preparations for long weeks of action", deputy defence minister Matan Vilnai said.

Mr Olmert's statement that the bombardment was "the first of several stages approved by the security cabinet" was quoted from a briefing he gave to President Shimon Peres on Tuesday.

Separately, Israeli naval vessels confronted pro-Palestinian activists seeking to break the Gaza blockade by boat. The activists said one vessel rammed them; their boat made port in Lebanon with heavy damage on one side.

Rocket fire

The Egyptian-Gaza border was due to be opened to permit more trucks carrying aid to enter the territory, and for wounded Palestinians to be transported to Egyptian hospitals.

Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak, under popular pressure to open the crossing fully, said that could not happen while Hamas, rather than the Palestinian Authority, led by its rival Fatah, controlled the border.

Demonstrators in Yemen, angered by Egypt's co-operation with the blockade on Gaza, briefly stormed the country's consulate in Aden, where they burned an Egyptian flag and hoisted a Palestinian one.

There have been angry protests against the Israeli offensive in many other cities across the Arab world and in several European capitals.

Hamas has pressed on with rocket and mortar assaults, killing three Israeli civilians and a soldier in areas that have not previously suffered such fatalities.

Israeli military officials said rocket attacks landing more than 25 miles (40km) from Gaza put nearly 10% of Israel's population of seven million within range.

Israeli political leaders have been under pressure to act against rocket fire with a general election looming in early February.

Opposition leader Binyamin Netanyahu has backed the offensive, telling the BBC that "Israel is using a fraction of its power to try to target surgically the terrorists".

The strikes began less than a week after the expiry of a six-month-long ceasefire deal with Hamas, which has controlled Gaza since 2007.

Correspondents say short of a full-scale invasion of Gaza, it is unlikely Israel will be able to prevent rocket fire permanently.

Israel dismantled its strategic settlements and military bases in Gaza in 2005 but has kept tight control over access in and out of the narrow coastal strip and its airspace.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/middle_east/7804218.stm

Published: 2008/12/30 18:07:29 GMT

© BBC MMVIII

Print Sponsor

nkdlunch

12-30-2008, 01:42 PM

Gaza relief boat damaged in encounter with Israeli vessel
Story Highlights
Israeli naval vessel, boat with medical volunteers collide in Mediterranean

Boat's crew contends naval vessel rammed it intentionally

Israel denies intentionally hitting boat carrying journalists, medical supplies

Damaged boat arrives safely at Lebanese port after incident

(CNN) -- An Israeli patrol boat struck a boat carrying medical volunteers and supplies to Gaza early Tuesday as it attempted to intercept the vessel in the Mediterranean Sea, witnesses and Israeli officials said.

CNN correspondent Karl Penhaul was aboard the 60-foot, Gibraltar-registered pleasure boat Dignity when the contact occurred. When the boat later docked in the Lebanese port city of Tyre, severe damage was visible to the forward port side of the boat, and the front left window and part of the roof had collapsed.

The Dignity was carrying crew and 16 passengers -- physicians from Britain, Germany and Cyprus and human rights activists, including former U.S. Rep. Cynthia McKinney -- who were trying to reach Gaza through an Israeli blockade of the territory.

The captain of the Dignity said the Israelis broadcast a radio message accusing the vessel of being involved in terrorist activity. But Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor denied that and said the radio message simply warned the vessel not to proceed to Gaza because it is a closed military area.

Palmor said there was no response to the radio message, and the vessel then tried to out-maneuver the Israeli patrol boat, leading to the collision. Watch Penhaul describe the boat damage »

Penhaul said at least two Israeli patrol boats had shadowed the Dignity for about half an hour before the collision, moving around the vessel on all sides. One of the patrol boats then shined its spotlight on the Dignity while the other, with its lights off, "very severely rammed" the boat.

The captain of the Dignity told Penhaul he received no prior warning. Only after the collision did the Israelis come on the radio to say they struck the boat because they believed it was involved in terrorist activities. Watch the chaos in Gaza and Israel »

The captain and crew said their vessel was struck intentionally, Penhaul said, but Palmor called those allegations "absurd."

"There is no intention on the part of the Israeli navy to ram anybody," Palmor said.

"I would call it ramming. Let's just call it as it is," McKinney said. "Our boat was rammed three times, twice in the front and one on the side. Watch Cynthia McKinney discuss the collision »

"Our mission was a peaceful mission to deliver medical supplies and our mission was thwarted by the Israelis -- the aggressiveness of the Israeli military," she said.

The incident occurred in international waters about 90 miles off Gaza. Israel controls the waters off Gaza's coast and routinely blocks ships from coming into the Palestinian territory as part of an ongoing blockade that also applies to the Israel-Gaza border. Human rights groups have expressed concern about the blockade on Gaza, which has restricted the delivery of emergency aid and fuel supplies.

The collision was so severe, Penhaul said, that the passengers were ordered to put on their life vests and be ready to get in lifeboats. The Dignity began taking on water, but the crew managed to pump it out of the hull long enough for the boat to reach shore.

Palmor said the vessel refused assistance after the incident.

The boat was carrying boxes of relief supplies, volunteers and journalists to Gaza, the Palestinian territory now subject to an intense Israeli bombing campaign.

Israel launched airstrikes against Gaza on Saturday in what Defense Minister Ehud Barak called an "all-out war" against the Palestinian militant group Hamas, which has ruled the territory since 2007.

The Palestinian death toll has topped 375, most of them Hamas militants, Palestinian medical sources said Tuesday. At least 60 civilians have been killed in Gaza, U.N. officials said.

Hamas has responded with volleys of rocket fire aimed at southern Israeli towns, which have left six Israelis dead -- five of them civilians.

Hamas has vowed to defend Gaza in the face of what it calls continued Israeli aggression. Each side blames the other for violating an Egyptian-brokered cease-fire, which formally expired December 19 but had been weakening for months.

All AboutGaza • Israel • Cynthia McKinney

Find this article at:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/12/30/gaza.aid.boat/index.html

nkdlunch

12-30-2008, 01:43 PM

US tacitly backs Israel offensive

By Kim Ghattas
BBC News, Washington

The White House has given its tacit backing to Israel's military operation against Hamas and the Gaza Strip, a flare-up that is threatening to seriously complicate any peace efforts envisaged by the incoming administration of President-elect Barack Obama.

"The United States understands that Israel needs to take actions to defend itself," said White House spokesman Gordon Johndroe.

"In order for the violence to stop, Hamas must stop firing rockets into Israel and agree to respect a sustainable and durable ceasefire."

It is an attitude that is very similar to the one adopted by the Bush administration during the 2006 war between Israel and Hezbollah in Lebanon - calling for a sustainable cease-fire and a lasting peace rather than pressuring Israel to immediately halt a military operation that was killing civilians.

Short of a dramatic development, observers expect no shift in this position - or the administration's support for Israel - during the remaining three weeks of President George W Bush's term in office.

Mr Bush has not made any public comments so far, and neither has his secretary of state, Condoleezza Rice. But the state department has been keen to stress diplomatic efforts are underway to bring the crisis under control.

"We are encouraging all the nations in the region to take an active part in rebuilding the cease-fire so that we can return to the relative calm that was enjoyed in the region over the past six months," said state department spokesman Gordon Duguid.

He listed all the foreign leaders that Ms Rice had spoken to, from Tzipi Livni, her Israeli counterpart, to Saudi Foreign Minister Saud el-Faisal.

"We are working for a cease-fire now where Hamas must stop its rocket attacks on Israel," said Mr Duguid. "All sides then need to respect the ceasefire."

Bush failure

This is also in line with the approach taken by the Bush administration during its second term, according to Dan Senor, a former Bush administration official now working with the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) - with the White House making strong statements in support of Israel while Condoleezza Rice leans a bit more strongly on Israel.

The flare-up also highlights the failure of Mr Bush to bring about a peace agreement between Palestinians and Israelis.

After he launched his ambitious Annapolis peace initiative in 2007, few believed anything concrete would come out of it, but some argued that at least Mr Bush was leaving behind a work-in-progress, with relative calm on the ground.

Instead, the last few weeks of his presidency will be mired in yet another crisis - the biggest Israeli offensive against Gaza in decades.

While the escalation was pegged to a date - the end of a six-month cease-fire on 19 December - both the Israelis and Hamas seem to be using the political calendar in Israel and the US to reshuffle the cards before the next administration comes in.

Israeli officials know they can count on the Bush administration's support but are less sure about how an Obama administration would have reacted were they to have launched this operation after 20 January.

Mr Senor also argued that Israel did not want a flare-up in Gaza to be the first issue that Mr Obama would have to contend with when he moved into the White House.

"There was a sense in Israel that action was needed as the cease-fire was set to expire and they had to either move quickly or wait a long time - four or six months - and that was not something Israel could deal with," he said.

No details

But the developments are on such a scale that even if calm returns in a few days, the crisis will have an impact, possibly even regional, that will last beyond 20 January, so the Middle East is forcing itself high onto the agenda of the incoming administration.

Mr Obama has often said he would tackle the challenge of Middle East peace from day one, but has not given many details on how he plans to reach the peace deal that has eluded the Clinton and Bush administrations.

Israel's military operation in Gaza is also likely to limit his room for manoeuvre and diplomacy, at least in the beginning.

Mr Obama's team, stressing that there is only one president at a time, has kept its statements about the crisis to a minimum, but has provided assurances of its support for Israel.

"He's going to work closely with the Israelis," said David Axelrod, a senior advisor to Mr Obama. "They're a great ally of ours, the most important ally in the region."

"But he will do so in a way that will promote the cause of peace and work closely with the Israelis and the Palestinians on that, towards that objective," Mr Axelrod told the CBS Sunday talk show Face the Nation.

Steve Coll, a senior CFR fellow on Middle Eastern studies, said the Israelis were trying to do everything they could to get political cover from the incoming administration by highlighting statements by the president-elect, such as the one he made in August in Sderot, the Israeli town targeted by Hamas rocket attacks.

"If somebody was sending rockets into my house where my two daughters sleep at night, I'm going to do everything in my power to stop that," said Mr Obama during the visit. "And I would expect Israelis to do the same thing."

Gaza may well be that first international crisis that Vice President-elect Joe Biden predicted Mr Obama would have to face when he came into office, with both Israel and Hamas testing the incoming leader.

And while there is a reasonable amount of good will awaiting Mr Obama in the Arab world, how he handles similar flare-ups during his presidency will determine how long the honeymoon lasts.

Wild Cobra

12-30-2008, 01:46 PM

As long as Hamas is attacking Israel from Gaza, Israel ius witrhin their right to dessimate the region is they desire. Since the Gaza government isn't stopping Hamas from within their borders to be a good neighbor, Fuck them!

hater

12-30-2008, 01:49 PM

well Israel will tear Palestine up for the next month or so. Bush could not give 2 shits about it and Obama... he is too inlove with himself right now to even think about it. He is preparing for his coronation as the king of kings.

meanwhile when all is said and done and Obama starts to give a shit(say mid-February)...Gaza strip might be a dead zone by then

Rohirrim

12-30-2008, 01:53 PM

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20081230/capt.9a8c650710d34fea901d69fabc86912d.aptopix_obam a_high122.jpg?x=244&y=345&q=85&sig=9KNO22tCB_gQKVjZMPm_Vg--

Winehole23

12-30-2008, 02:16 PM

. Since the Gaza government isn't stopping Hamas from within their borders to be a good neighbor, Fuck them!Hamas is the duly elected government in the Occupied Territories. It was the US who insisted they be allowed to participate in the elections. That turned out well.

well Israel will tear Palestine up for the next month or so. Bush could not give 2 shits about it and Obama... he is too inlove with himself right now to even think about it. He is preparing for his coronation as the king of kings.Perhaps. But maybe he's deferring to the current occupant of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. Imagine the howls of outrage if Obama were to contradict Bush in some way.

meanwhile when all is said and done and Obama starts to give a shit(say mid-February)...Gaza strip might be a dead zone by thenRemember how the 2006 invasion of Lebanon went? It could turn out something like that. Moderates marginalized, civilians killed, Hamas still in power, no clear victory for Israel.

Here's PJB's take:

http://www.creators.com/opinion/pat-buchanan.html?columnsName=pbu

Bush, Obama and the Gaza Blitz

Unwilling to control its fighters, who fired scores of missiles into Israel at the end of their six-month ceasefire, Hamas gave Israel the provocation it needed to deliver a savage blow to the Palestinian enclave in Gaza.

Saturday was the bloodiest day in the history of the Palestinian people since being driven from their homes in the War of 1948. One thousand were killed or wounded, as the Israeli Air Force conducted over a hundred strikes — on graduation ceremonies for Hamas fighters, police stations and storage sites for rockets.

About Israel's right and duty to defend its border towns, there is no dispute. When Hamas permits Gaza to be used as a launch pad for rockets, it must expect retaliation. Nor can Hamas claim some right to dictate the limits of that retaliation.

Yet the wisdom of so savage a retribution for rockets that killed not one Israeli is open to question. And crass Israeli politics seems to be behind this premeditated and planned blitz.

With Likud's hawkish "Bibi" Netanyahu ahead in the polls for the Feb. 10 election, Defense Minister Ehud Barak, Labor's candidate, had to show that he, too, could be ruthless with Hamas.

Kadima Party candidate and Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni has an even greater need than the highly decorated Barak to show toughness. Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, departing in scandal, wants to exit in a blaze of glory, to blot out the memory of a botched war against Hezbollah that he launched in the summer of 2006.

However, while Israel's politicians all seem to have a stake in these devastating strikes, Israel herself will pay the price.

Given the casualty toll, over 300 dead and 1,300 wounded as of this writing, Hamas will have to exact its pound of flesh. The Hamas wing that seeks renewed war with Israel will now shout into silence the wing working with Egypt's President Hosni Mubarak on a new ceasefire.

The moderate Palestinian Mahmoud Abbas, who has been talking to Israel, testifying to her good faith, has been made to appear the puppet and fool. A new intifada spreading to the West Bank, with suicide attacks inside Israel, is now possible.

Moderate Arabs, who have recognized Israel or backed peace, will now be seen by the Arab street as appeasers impotent to stop the public suffering of the Palestinian people.

As for President Bush's hopes of midwifing a peace that would create a Palestinian state, they are as dead as the Annapolis process he set in train. In advancing peace in the Middle East, Bush's eight-year record is now a near-absolute failure.

For four years, Bush refused to talk to Yasir Arafat, though Bill Clinton had negotiated with him, as had four Israeli prime ministers, two of who shared a Nobel Prize with Arafat. In his second term, Bush, after insisting Hamas be included in free elections in Palestine, refused to recognize Hamas when it won those elections.

Arafat was a terrorist and Hamas is a terrorist organization, declared Bush, and we don't negotiate with terrorists. Yet, Bush de-listed Libya as a state sponsor of terror and sent Condi Rice to chat up Col. Gadhafi, though Gadhafi still has on his hands the blood of scores of American school kids from the Lockerbie massacre of 1989 that Libya and Gadhafi engineered
For eight years, like the "dummy" in a hand of bridge, Bush has sat mute as his Israeli partner, Sharon or Olmert, played America's cards as well as their own. The Bush response to Saturday's carnage, as anticipated, was to blame Hamas for causing it and urge Israelis to be careful about civilian casualties as they go about their reprisals.

Whatever Israel decides, we support. For eight years that has been the most reliable guide to U.S. Middle East policy.

And Barack Obama? Forty-eight hours after the Israeli blitz began, he and his national security team remain silent.

Hopefully, Obama will bring with him a new Mideast policy, one made in the U.S.A., for the U.S.A. Hopefully, just as Israel has its private links to Syria through Turkey, to Hamas through Egypt and to Hezbollah, Obama will establish independent U.S. channels to all three, and adopt a separate U.S. policy toward all three, as Israel does.

While the United States must support Israel's right to defend her towns and to strike bases from which Israelis are being attacked, Obama should denounce the collective punishment of 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza, by Israel's cutting off their electricity in the dead of winter and denying them the food and medicine many need to survive.

For us to remain silent in the face of this comports neither with our interests or our values. Israel's policy of withholding from the weak and innocent of Gaza, women and children, the necessities of life, to punish the guilty who rule at the point of a gun, is a policy that Obama should declare the United States will no longer support with tax dollars.

ChumpDumper

12-30-2008, 02:36 PM

I thought Israel is Palestine. Part of it anyway.

Nbadan

12-30-2008, 02:37 PM

....we bombed a country that never attacked us.....

Nbadan

12-30-2008, 02:38 PM

I thought Israel is Palestine. Part of it anyway.

Close.....in Jerusalem it is...

ChumpDumper

12-30-2008, 02:40 PM

Historically, it all is.

Nbadan

12-30-2008, 02:41 PM

With Likud's hawkish "Bibi" Netanyahu ahead in the polls for the Feb. 10 election, Defense Minister Ehud Barak, Labor's candidate, had to show that he, too, could be ruthless with Hamas.

If the Likud get elected again watch out....

Nbadan

12-30-2008, 02:44 PM

....the collateral damage...

According to published news reports, since the commencement of aerial strikes, over 300 Palestinians have been killed and approximately 1,400 have been wounded. The dead include 20 children under the age of 16--nearly half of them killed while on a school bus, according to the United Nations--and 9 women. The attack aggravated a humanitarian crisis wrought by the Israeli-imposed blockade of food, fuel, and medical supplies. With a population of 1.5 million people, the Gaza Strip is among the most densely populated territories in the world.

Link (http://kucinich.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=108039)

Nbadan

12-30-2008, 02:47 PM

...the carrot..

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States announced on Tuesday it would give $85 million to the U.N. agency providing aid to Palestinian refugees in the West Bank, Gaza, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria.

The announcement comes as the humanitarian situation is worsening in Hamas-ruled Gaza, which has been pounded by Israel for the past four days in retaliation for rockets fired into the Jewish state by Hamas and other Palestinian factions.

The U.S. funds, which will help cover appeals for aid by the agency for 2009, would pay for urgently needed food, medicines and other humanitarian aid for Palestinian refugees, said the department in a statement.

Of the $85 million, the State Department said $25 million would go to the U.N. Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) emergency appeal for the West Bank and Gaza and the remainder to a general fund run by the agency for Palestinian refugees in the region.

Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE4BT3VO20081230)

Oh, Gee!!

12-30-2008, 02:50 PM

Israel ius witrhin their right to dessimate the region is they desire

huh?

nkdlunch

12-30-2008, 03:01 PM

damn right there is a reason for this Israeli attack. Elections are coming up in israel

nkdlunch

12-30-2008, 03:03 PM

Saturday was the bloodiest day in the history of the Palestinian people since being driven from their homes in the War of 1948. One thousand were killed or wounded, as the Israeli Air Force conducted over a hundred strikes — on graduation ceremonies for Hamas fighters, police stations and storage sites for rockets.

meanwhile in the US, newspapers are concerned of what Sarah Palin has named her child

MaNuMaNiAc

12-30-2008, 08:13 PM

4 Israelis dead = 300+ Palestinians dead... talk about a proportional response. Still, you can't really argue against Hamas needing to be eradicated. If Palestinians are willing to hide them in their houses, then they should be prepared to face the consequences. Is tragic really.

SnakeBoy

12-30-2008, 08:18 PM

Historically, it all is.

And I live in comanche territory.

Wild Cobra

12-30-2008, 08:19 PM

4 Israelis dead = 300+ Palestinians dead... talk about a proportional response.
Onjly losers believe in a proportional responce.

If someone hits me, I hit them hard enough so they are incapable of attacking back! If anything, Israel is being too nice.

Fuck proportional responces.

SnakeBoy

12-30-2008, 08:24 PM

MaNuMaNiAc

12-30-2008, 08:42 PM

Onjly losers believe in a proportional responce.

If someone hits me, I hit them hard enough so they are incapable of attacking back! If anything, Israel is being too nice.

Fuck proportional responces.

Sure you do... that's why you're a fucking joke

Winehole23

12-30-2008, 08:55 PM

If I spit in your face you cannot punch me. You may spit back at me with an equal size lugey. If your mouth is dry you can substitute one small squirt of pee at me equal to the volume of my lugey. Not two squirts that would be disproportionate.Nice. It's really like that.

I take it you're familiar with the blockade obtaining in Gaza before the outbreak of hostilities. The shortages of energy, foodstuffs and medical supplies and so forth? Did you form an impression of that yet?

jack sommerset

12-30-2008, 09:14 PM

When will they learn. Don't fuck with Israel.

Winehole23

12-30-2008, 09:52 PM

When will they learn. Don't fuck with Israel.When will Israel learn they can't all be stamped out like cockroaches?

jochhejaam

12-30-2008, 10:01 PM

The Ethic of Reciprocity is being realized on a terrorist organization, and they have no one to fault but themselves for the current assault.

Although the MSM rarely reports on it, Hamas has arbitrarily, and without provocation, lobbed several thousand missles into Israel this year. With that in mind, no one should be surprised at Israel's reprisal, nor should they be defending Hamas for the fury currently being unleashed upon Hamas.

"That which you want for yourself, seek for mankind"
Sukhanan-i-Muhammad

SnakeBoy

12-30-2008, 10:19 PM

I take it you're familiar with the blockade obtaining in Gaza before the outbreak of hostilities. The shortages of energy, foodstuffs and medical supplies and so forth? Did you form an impression of that yet?

Proportional response. Too bad it didn't work.

Winehole23

12-30-2008, 10:25 PM

Although the MSM rarely reports on it, Hamas has arbitrarily, and without provocation, lobbed several thousand missles into Israel this year. With that in mind, no one should be surprised at Israel's reprisal, nor should they be defending Hamas for the fury currently being unleashed upon Hamas.You're hallucinating the omission. I'm guessing you don't watch much TV or read many newspapers, because it's routinely mentioned.

Four out of four links in this very thread mention Hamas attacks. So much for the coverup.

Winehole23

12-30-2008, 10:26 PM

Proportional response. Too bad it didn't work.Fair enough. It doesn't smack of collective punishment to you?

SnakeBoy

12-30-2008, 11:05 PM

Fair enough. It doesn't smack of collective punishment to you?

Oh it is collective punishment but just another failed tactic. Bottom line is nothing is going to work because one side doesn't want peace, they want the other side to stop existing. Since that's not going to happen we'll get to occasionally talk about Isreal throwing down the hammer for the rest of our lives.

Peaceful solutions won't work, violent solutions won't work, the US president is always expected to solve the problem and of course always fails. Talking about the Isreal Palestine conflict is like talking about the movie Groundhog Day.

Winehole23

12-30-2008, 11:17 PM

Peaceful solutions won't work, violent solutions won't work, the US president is always expected to solve the problem and of course always fails. Talking about the Isreal Palestine conflict is like talking about the movie Groundhog Day.Cynicism is hard to resist. I hope you're wrong, but concede you're likely right.

whottt

12-31-2008, 12:05 AM

4 Israelis dead = 300+ Palestinians dead... talk about a proportional response.

What an idiot...stupid logic like that is exactly why Argentina is a shithole.

Do you expect a proportional response when you start a fight?

Seriously...go pick a fight with the biggest meanest dude you can find..go up and punch him, and then tell him you expect a proportional response. Cry victim when you don't get one.

As he's removing his fist from your ass, maybe then you'll see how stupid you really are.

Here's a fucking hint...how about assholes that start fights take their asskickings...and if they can't handle it, then don't start the fight in the first place.

God you're fucking stupid...

braeden0613

12-31-2008, 12:37 AM

I'm actually happy to not hear much about it from Bush or Obama. It's their business, leave them alone.

Wild Cobra

12-31-2008, 01:00 AM

If I spit in your face you cannot punch me. You may spit back at me with an equal size lugey. If your mouth is dry you can substitute one small squirt of pee at me equal to the volume of my lugey. Not two squirts that would be disproportionate.

If you spit at me, I might kill you as in fear if you had AIDS, you might have shortened my life!

Did you know spitting at someone is a serious assault in some states for that reason?

TDMVPDPOY

12-31-2008, 04:00 AM

why dont american give palestine $3b each year like the israels so they can fight on even ground....

jochhejaam

12-31-2008, 09:18 AM

You're hallucinating the omission. I'm guessing you don't watch much TV or read many newspapers, because it's routinely mentioned.
I watch more televised news than I should, and I subscribe to a newspaper (Toledo Blade) until around election time. And no, the Hamas attacks are not routinely mentioned.
Maybe you subscribe to the Jewish World Review.

Four out of four links in this very thread mention Hamas attacks. So much for the coverup.
That's great, and thanks for counting...
I'll say it for you again; "the MSM "rarely" reports on Hamas attacks, even though they are virtually non-stop.
I'll help you with this one Winehole (but you're on you own for here on out), the operative word is "rarely", that in and of itself hardly constitutes hallucinations on my part, or a coverup.
I'm referring to Worldwide media bias in their coverage of the conflict between Israel and their sworn terrorist enemies.

If it were Israel arbitrarily lobbing missles on a regular basis, we could rest assured that the MSM would have non-stop coverage.

Throw the U.N. into the bias category too, they're little more than a tool for terrorism in the conflict.

So far, your shtick has consisted of nothing more than putting words in my mouth (coverup), and wild, unfounded conclusions (hallucinating) to what I've said.
That's fine winehole, but try to mix in a bit of intelligent, civilized discourse with it.

Winehole23

12-31-2008, 10:56 AM

I watch more televised news than I should, and I subscribe to a newspaper (Toledo Blade) until around election time. And no, the Hamas attacks are not routinely mentioned.
Maybe you subscribe to the Jewish World Review.

I'll say it for you again; "the MSM "rarely" reports on Hamas attacks, even though they are virtually non-stop. The 100% ratio in this thread doesn't bode well for your perception, and it is at odds with mine. I'm a more or less compulsive consumer of English language print media, and the justification for Israel's countermeasures to Hamas is -- the word is routinely... I am tempted to say ritualistically... cited.

I'm referring to Worldwide media bias in their coverage of the conflict between Israel and their sworn terrorist enemies. Believe it or not, I'm more than a little sympathetic to this view. There's no doubt US media give more credence to Israel's side of things than the rest of the world. Perhaps my residence in the US and reliance on US print media has colored my perception that the MSM is fair -- some would say more than fair -- to Israel. I have the North American bias. I'll readily grant that it is not so elsewhere.

If it were Israel arbitrarily lobbing missles on a regular basis, we could rest assured that the MSM would have non-stop coverage.When somebody dies, the story runs. If it bleeds, it leads. Otherwise who cares?

Don't get me wrong, a terrorist attack is a terrorist attack. But if the method of attack is extremely inefficient -- like the Hamas missiles -- surely the foreign press can be forgiven for citing the failed attacks from time to time, rather than reporting them one by one.

Throw the U.N. into the bias category too, they're little more than a tool for terrorism in the conflict.You start well, but finish badly. The UN has an anti-Israel bias for sure. To characterize it as a tool for Israel's enemies is surely a provincial view of the organization. Not unreasonable, in my view, but provincial nevertheless.

Just curious, would you say the same about Gush Shalom and B'Tselem?

So far, your shtick has consisted of nothing more than putting words in my mouth (coverup), and wild, unfounded conclusions (hallucinating) to what I've said.

That's fine winehole, but try to mix in a bit of intelligent, civilized discourse with it.I thought your comment was careless, but I'll admit to being guilty of imprecision myself. Putting the word "coverup" in your mouth was a slight mischaracterization, and accusing you of hallucinating was unkind. I apologize for the unfriendly tone.

I still disagree with you that the MSM (in the US, at least) minimizes or hides Hamas attacks. They are mentioned whenever Israeli/Palestinian tensions are reported on. Almost without exception. So I'll stand by my point that your characterization that the MSM doesn't cover the crimes of Hamas is not only erroneous, but obtuse.

Duff McCartney

12-31-2008, 01:07 PM

TDMVPDPOY

12-31-2008, 01:30 PM

This whole problem could have been solved if they would have created Israel in Europe. Possibly in Germany.

In my mind, Israel should cease to exist because it never existed in the first place. It was made...not by the Jewish people but by other people. It's like in the movie Munich...I think they do exploit the guilt especially to Europeans but they are also quick to throw around the word anti-semitic.

I think in an ongoing conflict like this...everyone is careful to criticise Israel for fear of being labeled anti-semitic...when criticism of Israel is not the same as being anti-semitic.

that is the problem right there, giving away something that isnt theres b4 ww1, that sovereignty should be given back to its rightful owners....

israel govt doesnt do much shit when israels go settle on land owned my palestines on gaza, and they go build a wall and its theirs, that doesnt solve the problem.

im sure you can rebuild israel somewhere else maybe on an island, and they can make that into a rich country with all the wealth the jews have, just like singapore or hongkong, and do whatever the fuck they want. I dont think the germans would want there country turned into israel dude. Thats just wrong man.

jack sommerset

12-31-2008, 01:56 PM

Duff McCartney

12-31-2008, 02:35 PM

I dont think the germans would want there country turned into israel dude. Thats just wrong man.

I don't think the Palestinians wanted that either..but like the guy in Munich says..."My father didn't gas any Jews."

If they would have made Israel in Europe this problem could have been avoided maybe. Fact is the Palestinians from the beginning of Israels existence have had all the odds stacked against them with pretty much every Western nation supporting Israel and none supporting the Palestinians.

I don't think this problem will ever be solved because for the most part you have hard liners and radicals in power on both sides of the conflict. You have radical Israelis who will never give up their land and radical Palestinians who will fight at all costs. It's a losing battle that neither one will ever win.

Sadly it's become this. The Palestinians feel like they have no choice..and based on what I've read and seen in documentaries they have almost no rights. The Israelis can bulldoze and build over their land and they don't have the ability to stop them.

whottt

12-31-2008, 02:47 PM

This whole problem could have been solved if they would have created Israel in Europe. Possibly in Germany.

I don't throw any support behind Israel. They hide behind the United States and know that they can do no wrong...and the U.S. will still support them no matter what the cost. AIPAC has too much power over the politicians in the United States and influence everything they do.

In my mind, Israel should cease to exist because it never existed in the first place. It was made...not by the Jewish people but by other people. It's like in the movie Munich...I think they do exploit the guilt especially to Europeans but they are also quick to throw around the word anti-semitic.

I think in an ongoing conflict like this...everyone is careful to criticise Israel for fear of being labeled anti-semitic...when criticism of Israel is not the same as being anti-semitic.

But you miss the point entirely, Europe didn't expect the Jews to survive the founding of Israel. And Europe didn't want the Jews in Europe....not just Germany, but France and England as well. It's not like anti-semitism was limited to Germany.

Hitler going after the Jews wasn't what pissed Europe off...it was when he went after their land that they got pissed off.

In any case...point the finger all you want, but the blame ultimately lies with the UK, France and the Palestinians themselves. The Israelis paid for that land...

As for why we are allied with them...well it was a marriage of convenience to limit Soviet influence in the ME...plus American Jews got a lot of money and buy off our politicians. But make no mistake about it, the alliance is a strategic one...

Beyond all that, 90% of the Mid-Eastern Countries are total shitholes while Israel isn't...and it's not just because we give them money.

We gave Yasser Arafat money too...he stuck it in his bank account and let his people get fucked.

We give Egypt money too...still a corrupt shithole.

Beyond all that part 2, half the motherfuckers there calling themselves the Palestinians aren't even from that area but rather expelled from all the other countries in that region.

Look...forget about singing Kumbaya with Israel...they are doing what's in their best interest, we are doing what is in ours....

It's really a matter of do you stand for shitholes or do you stand for non-shitholes...

World needs fewer shitholes, not more...

Winehole23

12-31-2008, 04:58 PM

Maybe you subscribe to the Jewish World Review. :rollin

The neo-jacobins at Human Events aren't my cup of tea, and I find their evangelism among North America's wandering "conservative" Jews frankly embarrassing -- however well intentioned it is. The smell of neoconservative cradlepuke is getting pretty dire over there.

Winehole23

12-31-2008, 05:09 PM

Look...forget about singing Kumbaya with Israel...they are doing what's in their best interest, we are doing what is in ours....It's the blending of the two national interests that seems to be troublesome for our country right now IMO. We should consider our own first. Israel is our ally, but come on. Our obseqiousness is shameless at times.

It's really a matter of do you stand for shitholes or do you stand for non-shitholes...

World needs fewer shitholes, not more...Remember, whottt, that wherever the shithole happens to be, people happen to live there.

To be completely clear, if you stand for the elimination of shitholes, you tacitly include the people.

Riposte?

Homeland Security

12-31-2008, 05:15 PM

We need Israel's expertise in urban warfare for when we start bombing the liberals.

Cant_Be_Faded

12-31-2008, 06:05 PM

The beauty of this conflict is that both sides can logically argue themselves to be in the right, based on past precedences of international conflict mediation.

All this recent episode means is that israel had too many weapons stockpiled up that needed to be used. When these attacks are over, they will leave gaza, close the doors to the zoo, and back to the status quo.

MaNuMaNiAc

12-31-2008, 06:14 PM

What an idiot...stupid logic like that is exactly why Argentina is a shithole.

Do you expect a proportional response when you start a fight?

Seriously...go pick a fight with the biggest meanest dude you can find..go up and punch him, and then tell him you expect a proportional response. Cry victim when you don't get one.

As he's removing his fist from your ass, maybe then you'll see how stupid you really are.

Here's a fucking hint...how about assholes that start fights take their asskickings...and if they can't handle it, then don't start the fight in the first place.

God you're fucking stupid...

You're comparing an armed conflict with hundreds of casualties to a fucking fist fight... and I'm supposed to be the stupid one??

You seriously get more fucking retarded with every passing year, don't you?? Just shut the fuck up already. You've been owned by so many people in this forum for the past year, I'm starting to think you enjoy being the forum's resident bitch.

Wild Cobra

12-31-2008, 07:34 PM

You're comparing an armed conflict with hundreds of casualties to a fucking fist fight... and I'm supposed to be the stupid one??

You seriously get more fucking retarded with every passing year, don't you?? Just shut the fuck up already. You've been owned by so many people in this forum for the past year, I'm starting to think you enjoy being the forum's resident bitch.
It doesn't matter what type of fight. The victor is the one that fights back with an overwheming force.

Why are you anti-semetic?

Winehole23

12-31-2008, 07:47 PM

:corn:'

BlackSwordsMan

12-31-2008, 08:00 PM

the only time america doesn't get in other peoples shit is when the jews are the ones killing people

MaNuMaNiAc

01-01-2009, 12:25 AM

Why are you anti-semetic?

Who the fuck is being anti-semitic?? stop making an ass of yourself Cobra

TDMVPDPOY

01-01-2009, 02:32 AM

they just showed israel missiles hittin down a mosque in palestine.....

they said it was housing terrorists, are their evidence to back that up? or they are just bombing everything......

they are blocking aid coming into gaza.....

smeagol

01-01-2009, 09:28 AM

This conflict won't end until there is complete separation between these two peoples. Either Israel is moved somewhere else, or Palestine is moved somewhere else. Until then, the conflict will be alive, sometiems with more intensity, sometimes with less.

Extra Stout

01-01-2009, 09:46 AM

jochhejaam

01-01-2009, 01:03 PM

Just curious, would you say the same about Gush Shalom and B'Tselem?

GS is to Israel what MoveOn.org is to the U.S. Israel removing their military occupation from the West Bank would solve nothing. If I were Israel I wouldn’t do anything to appease or placate the terrorist agenda, anymore than I would support actions of that nature by our own Country.

There are pockets of anti-Nationalism in every Country, and although they have a right to their opinions, they are light years away from having a consensus, their agenda, if it were successful, would serve only to weaken their Country. Unconscionable as it may seem, they somehow see the realization of their dreams, and the ultimate effect of weakening their homeland, as desirable.

In today’s World, pacifism doesn’t serve to mollify, it merely allows the aggressor that we are attempting to appease additional leverage in their goals to subordinate, conquer and/or eliminate their targets. It’s truly naïve’ to believe that appeasing an enemy would serve to further peace with them.

I thought your comment was careless, but I'll admit to being guilty of imprecision myself. Putting the word "coverup" in your mouth was a slight mischaracterization, and accusing you of hallucinating was unkind. I apologize for the unfriendly tone.
No need to apologize, I really didn't mind at all, besides, I reciprocated in kind, we'll just consider it our introduction to each other.

I've read more than a few of your posts here, and IMO you bring a lot to the table. The education I get from many posters in this forum on current events is appreciated.

I still disagree with you that the MSM (in the US, at least) minimizes or hides Hamas attacks. They are mentioned whenever Israeli/Palestinian tensions are reported on. Almost without exception. So I'll stand by my point that your characterization that the MSM doesn't cover the crimes of Hamas is not only erroneous, but obtuse.
I see you tempered your characterization of my post from "egregious" to "obtuse", thanks...

If I were living in Israel, and there was the constant threat of rockets being launched into my Country, regardless of their overall effectiveness, accurate or not, each missle carries with it the potential to destroy innocent citizens, a result that brings delight to Hamas. I'd wouldn't want that aggression to be muted in any way, and it should not be.

Why hasn't the U.N. sent Peace Keeping forces to stop these attacks? They barely raise an eyebrow until Israel decided that enough is enough, and takes matters into their own hands, and then the action they do take is to condemn Israel.

They are, as I stated earlier, a tool for terrorism, and a facilitator of anti-semitism.

boutons_

01-01-2009, 01:15 PM

They got a biggie today (sorry 'bout the family)

"Nizar Rayyan, a cleric who served as a liaison between Hamas's political and military wings, had called for renewed suicide bombings inside Israel and refused to go into hiding, as other prominent Hamas members had done. His death, confirmed in a statement issued by Hamas, marked the first known killing of a senior leader of the militant group since Israel began air strikes on Saturday. Two of Rayyan's four wives and four of his 12 children were also killed after Israeli forces bombed their apartment building, Palestinian health officials said."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/01/AR2009010101141_pf.html

clubalien

01-01-2009, 02:27 PM

I am no expert but I was wondering if it was possible to gas the palestine civilians like saddam did. I assume most of hammas has a gas masks but most of the general population wouldn't. Are the jews afraid this will cause a bigger attack on them? Seems it worked for saddam and still keeps infrastructure in place to rebuild without bombing.

clambake

01-01-2009, 02:51 PM

giving blankets would be more subtle.

Backdoorman

01-01-2009, 03:26 PM

Anti-Israel demonstration in New York City :

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/20081229NYDeathJuice.jpg

:D

ClingingMars

01-01-2009, 04:20 PM

whottt

01-01-2009, 04:51 PM

whottt

01-01-2009, 04:55 PM

You're comparing an armed conflict with hundreds of casualties to a fucking fist fight... and I'm supposed to be the stupid one??

The fact you think there is a difference proves you are the stupid one. Idiot.

You seriously get more fucking retarded with every passing year, don't you?? Just shut the fuck up already. You've been owned by so many people in this forum for the past year, I'm starting to think you enjoy being the forum's resident bitch.

Whatever, you 3rd world wannabe intellectual with a turd for brains...take your smug attitude and stick it up your stupid fucking ass.

whottt

01-01-2009, 05:00 PM

It's the blending of the two national interests that seems to be troublesome for our country right now IMO. We should consider our own first. Israel is our ally, but come on. Our obseqiousness is shameless at times.

Personally I'm sick of the whole fucking thing...but I disagree, we do need Israel as an ally in that region still. Plus I still have hopes they can get the other countries to stop being shitholes.

Remember, whottt, that wherever the shithole happens to be, people happen to live there.

To be completely clear, if you stand for the elimination of shitholes, you tacitly include the people.

Riposte?

Check the immigration rates...people can't get out of that region of the world fast enough.

IMHO, any country that has substantially more people trying to get out of it then trying to get in it...is a shithole, that's the reason people are trying to get out of it...because most people don't like living in shitholes. Even in if they were born there.

I have different attitude about things though that most people...I don't think those countries are shitholes because of the people that live there in general...they are shitholes because of Europe fucking around over there during a technological gap between the European and Mid-Eastern cultues, and turning them into inhumane shitholes.

Europe did the same thing in Asia, Africa and South America as well...

My approach to fixing it...never take Europe's advice on anything, tell them to shut the fuck up, get rid of the dictators, and let the people rebuild their countries.

whottt

01-01-2009, 05:14 PM

LaMarcus Bryant

01-01-2009, 06:18 PM

smeagol

01-01-2009, 08:06 PM

Or until one side is completely eliminated.

I do not see that happening anytime soon. So I say, let's put one people in one part of the Earth and the other people in a place as far a away from the first dudes as we possibly can.

Shastafarian

01-01-2009, 08:18 PM

Why should anyone give a shit about those people killing each other. I wouldnt mind seeing both of them nuke each other. Those damn Jews cost us too much money as it is. We should cut all aid from those bastards. Let their God defend them... since they suppose to be chosen and shit.

the only time america doesn't get in other peoples shit is when the jews are the ones killing people

Who the fuck is being anti-semitic?? stop making an ass of yourself Cobra

whottt

01-01-2009, 08:29 PM

..

Shastaaaaaaaaaaa! Weclome Back! LTNS!

Check it out Shasta!!!! (http://www.spursreport.com/forums/)

whottt

01-01-2009, 08:35 PM

I do not see that happening anytime soon. So I say, let's put one people in one part of the Earth and the other people in a place as far a away from the first dudes as we possibly can.

Did you know that one of the alternate sites for the Jewish homeland was in the country now known as Argentina? It was called the Andina plan.

Too bad you guys didn't let more Jews in...at least they know how to pay their bills...and they are usually the ones making the loans...as opposed to defaulting on them.:smokin

MaNuMaNiAc

01-01-2009, 09:03 PM

Speaking of shitholes...I have to reclassify Argentina. I just checked out the immigration rates and for the first time since I have been on the internet Argentina no longer has a negative migration rate.

I guess I'll have to stop calling Argentina a shithole since it's migration rate is zero.

Congrats Manumaniac...you no longer live in a shithole. You status is now neutral. :tu

Cue ungracious classless response by Manumaniac in:
5
4
3
2
1...........

:lol

nobody gives a fuck how or what you classify whottt, you're inconsequential.

The fact you go around spouting your opinion as if anybody here really gave a shit is proof enough of your detachment from reality. How's that for an ungracious classless response you ignorant sack of shit?

P.S. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I might be third world, you're fucking third rate :lol

and when the hell am I gonna make it on to your ignore list?? please let us know :rolleyes

Shastafarian

01-01-2009, 10:33 PM

Shastaaaaaaaaaaa! Weclome Back! LTNS!

Check it out Shasta!!!! (http://www.spursreport.com/forums/)

I'm not sure what's funnier. The fact that they shut down their site for over a week or that when they opened it back up again no one came back. Wait, I do know which one is funnier! :lol

whottt

01-02-2009, 12:40 AM

:lol

nobody gives a fuck how or what you classify whottt, you're inconsequential.

The fact you go around spouting your opinion as if anybody here really gave a shit is proof enough of your detachment from reality. How's that for an ungracious classless response you ignorant sack of shit?

P.S. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I might be third world, you're fucking third rate :lol

You're third world even though Argentina really isn't right now...nicely done fuck stick.

and when the hell am I gonna make it on to your ignore list?? please let us know :rolleyes

You know that's actually a pretty interesting thought. I don't think I've ever even considered putting you on ignore. True, you are uninteresting, unoriginal and transparent, which is usually the fast track to my ignore list, but for some reason that idea hasn't ever crossed my mind. I'll have to analyze why you aren't on ignore further, as you actually do have a point that you should be on my ignore list.

Hmmm even more interesting now that I think about it...for some reason I don't have that many international posters on my ignore list. Maybe one or two...

baseline bum

01-02-2009, 04:36 AM

I've tried to be sympathetic to the Palestinians, but they got their country and still feel the need to lob rockets into Israel. There's no way Israel can be realistically expected to turn the other cheek to Hamas, the same way we couldn't let the Taliban survive after 9/11. You can't cry when you throw a rock at the big kid on the block and he comes over and beats the shit out of you in response.

velik_m

01-02-2009, 05:22 AM

Who gives a fuck about a "proportional response" - it's not about that it's about a simple question: Is it ok to kill a palestinian child because some other palestinian killed an israeli?

Let's hear it whottt - is it ok?

whottt

01-02-2009, 06:59 AM

Is it ok to kill a palestinian child because some other palestinian killed an israeli?

Let's hear it whottt - is it ok?

Normally I'd say pretty much no...although even that is up to debate as it's ultimately the responsibility of the parents to protect their children, not the Israeli army...

However in this case, knowing full well that the Palestinians indoctrinate their children to be suicide bombers, and Palestinian children have in fact have murdered Israelis in suicide bombings....

Not to mention the fact that Palestinian suicide bombers and rocket launchers deliberately target Israeli civillian areas...in fact that's all they do target....

Yes, it's ok to kill them, as the Palestinians themselves have made them enemy combatants, and the Palestinians use similar tactics.

I do not think it's the responsibility of the enemy army to protect Palestinian civillians, I think it's the reponsibility of the Palestinians to do so. This goes for any war.

If they cannot do so...then perhaps the Palestinians should stop listening to them. And perhaps they should stop attacking the Israelis.

Yes generally the enemy should do everything in it's power to avoid civillian deaths...but that rule is the first one to fly out the window when the combatants use guerilla or terrorist tactics.

In fact the use of large scale terrorist tactics in particular, makes nuclear retalliation an option IMHO.

Maybe the Palestinians should fire their rockets from unihabited regions...and target Israeli military targets instead of urban areas, homes and busses, and maybe they shouldn't teach their children to be suicide bombers...if they don't want them to die. Maybe they should stop using terrorist tactics...in fact maybe they should stop using war tactics.

Maybe they should attempt to rally world opinion to their side and gain the sympathy of popular opinion.

IMHO, the A-#1 way to achieve that is to stop using terrorist methods, as those methods are pretty much despised by everyone in the civilized world, and maybe they should plea for sympathy and in the name of human decency.

Worked for Ghandi.
And Neslon Mandela.
And Martin Luther King Jr.

smeagol

01-02-2009, 08:27 AM

Did you know that one of the alternate sites for the Jewish homeland was in the country now known as Argentina? It was called the Andina plan.

Too bad you guys didn't let more Jews in...at least they know how to pay their bills...and they are usually the ones making the loans...as opposed to defaulting on them.:smokin

Did you know Argentina has one of the world's largest Jewish populations (250K) outside Israel and the US?

MaNuMaNiAc

01-02-2009, 08:31 AM

You know that's actually a pretty interesting thought. I don't think I've ever even considered putting you on ignore. True, you are uninteresting, unoriginal and transparent, which is usually the fast track to my ignore list, but for some reason that idea hasn't ever crossed my mind. I'll have to analyze why you aren't on ignore further, as you actually do have a point that you should be on my ignore list.

Hmmm even more interesting now that I think about it...for some reason I don't have that many international posters on my ignore list. Maybe one or two...

:lmao Unbelievable...

Rohirrim

01-02-2009, 10:09 AM

Normally I'd say pretty much no...although even that is up to debate as it's ultimately the responsibility of the parents to protect their children, not the Israeli army...

However in this case, knowing full well that the Palestinians indoctrinate their children to be suicide bombers, and Palestinian children have in fact have murdered Israelis in suicide bombings.

Not to mention the fact that Palestinian suicide bombers and rocket launchers deliberately target Israeli civillian areas...in fact that's all they do target....

Yes, it's ok to kill them, as the Palestinians themselves have made them enemy combatants, and the Palestinians use similar tactics.

I do not think it's the responsibility of the enemy army to protect Palestinian civillians, I think it's the reponsibility of the Palestinians to do so. This goes for any war.

If they cannot do so...then perhaps the Palestinians should stop listening to them. And perhaps they should stop attacking the Israelis.

Yes generally the enemy should do everything in it's power to avoid civillian deaths...but that rule is the first one to fly out the window when the combatants use guerilla or terrorist tactics.

In fact the use of large scale terrorist tactics in particular, makes nuclear retalliation an option IMHO.

Maybe the Palestinians should fire their rockets from unihabited regions...and target Israeli military targets instead of urban areas, homes and busses, and maybe they shouldn't teach their children to be suicide bombers...if they don't want them to die. Maybe they should stop using terrorist tactics...in fact maybe they should stop using war tactics.

Maybe they should attempt to rally world opinion to their side and gain the sympathy of poplar opinion.

IMHO, the A-#1 way to achieve that is to stop using terrorist methods, as those methods are pretty much despised by everyone in the civilized world, and maybe they should plea for sympathy and in the name of human decency.

Worked for Ghandi.
And Neslon Mandela.
And Martin Luther King Jr.

good post imo.

Oh, Gee!!

01-02-2009, 11:15 AM

blah blah blah

It hasn't been six months you liar.

wonerehmi

01-02-2009, 05:10 PM

Personally I'm sick of the whole fucking thing...but I disagree, we do need Israel as an ally in that region still. Plus I still have hopes they can get the other countries to stop being shitholes.

Check the immigration rates...people can't get out of that region of the world fast enough.

IMHO, any country that has substantially more people trying to get out of it then trying to get in it...is a shithole, that's the reason people are trying to get out of it...because most people don't like living in shitholes. Even in if they were born there.

I have different attitude about things though that most people...I don't think those countries are shitholes because of the people that live there in general...they are shitholes because of Europe fucking around over there during a technological gap between the European and Mid-Eastern cultues, and turning them into inhumane shitholes.

Europe did the same thing in Asia, Africa and South America as well...

My approach to fixing it...never take Europe's advice on anything, tell them to shut the fuck up, get rid of the dictators, and let the people rebuild their countries.

whottt

01-02-2009, 05:18 PM

It hasn't been six months you liar.

Um...dickface, you seem to have me confused with someone who made a bet or in someway obligated or commited himself to leaving this forum and I did none of those things. I did not commit to anything, I did not promise anyone anything, I did not bet any one anything. Now die...

tranquill

01-02-2009, 05:18 PM

Hamas nowLuck_The_Fakers_plans major suicide attacks inside Israel. The group actually warned Muslims who are foreign citizens to leave Israel immediately: http://samsonblinded.org/news/hamas-warned-muslims-to-flee-israel-5473

Rohirrim

01-02-2009, 06:07 PM

Damn. What a chicken shit way to fight a war.

--British Soldier late 1700s.

clambake

01-02-2009, 06:17 PM

i guess throwing rocks has no effect on tanks.

Aggie Hoopsfan

01-02-2009, 08:49 PM

damn right there is a reason for this Israeli attack. Hamas has fired a couple hundred rockets into Israel over the last couple of weeks.

fify.

Look, Hamas are a pack of fucking idiots. All their rocket attacks over the last couple of weeks have been the equivalent of some dumbass throwing rocks at a 14' grizzy bear and then crying for mercy when the thing finally gets pissed enough and rips his head off.

Aggie Hoopsfan

01-02-2009, 08:51 PM

This thread is funny though. Lots of righteousness on here from the usual libs. Yet I don't see you all bitching when Hamas is lobbing rockets into Israel like it's going out of style.

Damn, Israel is surrounded on all sides by people who would just as soon see it wiped from the face of the earth. There's only so much shit they can take.

Wild Cobra

01-02-2009, 11:38 PM

Did you know Argentina has one of the world's largest Jewish populations (250K) outside Israel and the US?

Better watch out then. That makes you the third Jihad target of Radical Islam!

Wild Cobra

01-02-2009, 11:41 PM

velik_m

01-03-2009, 04:31 AM

This thread is funny though. Lots of righteousness on here from the usual libs. Yet I don't see you all bitching when Hamas is lobbing rockets into Israel like it's going out of style.

Hamas is not fighting for democracy, freedom and peace.

Personaly i don't care about the palestinians, though i disagree with whottt and i don't think innocent palestinians (like children) are fair play, but i think this action by Israel won't achieve anything good, except make them feel a little better perhaps. In fact, if anything they are making the situation worse, especially in the long run.

byrontx

01-03-2009, 04:43 AM

I am looking forward to seeing a Palestinian peace march someday. As it is, the Zionist Jews piss me off and the stupidity of the Palestinians pisses me off more.

spurspf

01-03-2009, 06:46 AM

Hey, dumbass civilian! They are shooting rockets from my bario, might want to move out before the other side shoots back. See, then maybe they won't have collateral damage.

Palkid

01-03-2009, 10:55 AM

i just wanted to put this pic http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/927/palestinemaplp0.gif this is the 8th day since Israel started its attacks on Gaza, using f-16 and Apaches 441 Palestinian killed, 75 of them are children, infants and less than 13 years old 2280 injured, 200 of them with critical injuries No Medicine, No Food, No Fuel , nothing 1.5 Million Palestinian in Gaza is under siege and till this moment the Israelis are attacking Gaza with the most advanced American Bombs.

DarrinS

01-03-2009, 11:05 AM

this is the 8th day since Israel started its attacks on Gaza, using f-16 and Apaches 441 Palestinian killed, 75 of them are children, infants and less than 13 years old 2280 injured, 200 of them with critical injuries No Medicine, No Food, No Fuel , nothing 1.5 Million Palestinian in Gaza is under siege and till this moment the Israelis are attacking Gaza with the most advanced American Bombs.

Sorry, but I'm failing to have sympathy for Hamas or those that harbor Hamas. I feel bad for any children killed, but I'm sure many of them would become suicide bombers anyway. If Hamas doesn't want collateral damage, they should stop using human shields.

Palkid

01-03-2009, 11:20 AM

Sorry, but I'm failing to have sympathy for Hamas or those that harbor Hamas. I feel bad for any children killed, but I'm sure many of them would become suicide bombers anyway. If Hamas doesn't want collateral damage, they should stop using human shields.

regarding what you have said about human shields http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/4603/865702345te2.jpg

Backdoorman

01-03-2009, 11:33 AM

regarding what you have said about human shields

Video:
http://doubletapper.blogspot.com/2008/12/hamas-using-children-as-human-shield-in.html
Pictures:
http://www.likud.nl/human-shields.bmp

http://www.geocities.com/palestiniansarelies/terrorcivilians6.jpg

http://blog.camera.org/archives/HumanShields.jpg

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/20060627HamasIED04.jpg

http://www.israelnewsagency.com/Rocket-LauncherGaza.jpg

Rohirrim

01-03-2009, 11:41 AM

We need to get them all hooked on CS, COD, etc instead of this archaic meaningless territorial dog fight that makes up the pinnacle of their lives.

Extra Stout

01-03-2009, 12:25 PM

When the Palestinians voted for Hamas, they voted for war.

ElNono

01-03-2009, 06:56 PM

Another retarded attack by Israel that is going to basically accomplish nothing but killing a handful of terrorist and a lot of civilians. Once they are pressured to stop by the International community, Hamas will go back to throw some rockets. We've seen this movie time and time again.
Are there elections soon in Israel? There has to be some political motive behind this (other than the whole US president transition going on).

Wild Cobra

01-03-2009, 07:07 PM

ElNono

01-03-2009, 07:48 PM

I suppose if someone attacked your home from their side of a fence, then you would do nothing?

I suppose if somebody kicked you out of your own house in the first place, you wouldn't do something about it?

To make my comment a bit more clear, almost nobody in the ME likes Israel. They can pound on Hamas all they want. Eventually, they'll have to stop, and all the other countries like Lebanon, Syria, Iran, etc are going to keep on sending people and rockets over to continue the attacks. Further, it makes your common Palestinians more angry, empowering groups like Hamas even further. So this muscle flexing they're doing will end up being irrelevant, no matter which way you look at it.

Wild Cobra

01-03-2009, 08:10 PM

I suppose if somebody kicked you out of your own house in the first place, you wouldn't do something about it?
Using past history is preposterous. The borders are defined. Besides, Israel occupied that land long before the Palestinians. As the map shown earlier as Palestine, tell me. Who was the Head of State then?

Israel gets attacked. They move in. They occupy so they can reduce the attacks.

If the Palestinians would stop attacking, I can guarantee you, Israel would move out!

Personally, since men who desire power use Mohammad and Jihad to attack Israel over and over, I think Israel should just wipe them out take the land over and impose Marshall Law there as many generations as it takes to subdue the people there. It's far from a perfect answer, but it looks like nothing will work short of genocide.

ponzi27

01-03-2009, 08:52 PM

Using past history is preposterous. The borders are defined. Besides, Israel occupied that land long before the Palestinians. As the map shown earlier as Palestine, tell me. Who was the Head of State then?

Personally, since men who desire power use Mohammad and Jihad to attack Israel over and over, I think Israel should just wipe them out take the land over and impose Marshall Law there as many generations as it takes to subdue the people there. It's far from a perfect answer, but it looks like nothing will work short of genocide.

How is history preposterous? We are not talking about 2000 years ago, but rather recent history. The people driven off their land can still identify their homes!

Secondly Israel is basically already do that! They have being doing it and continue to do it! They are just not being called out on it. Israel is as rogue state as they come. Where do you think people in the refugee camps in Gaza come from? They are from where today we call Israel. Israel drove off their lands and now they are being harassed in the refugee camps. Face it Israel as jewish state COULD NOT EXIST unless it either committed genocide or drove Arabs off their land.

Here is some info from the LIBRARY OF CONGRESS.

The property of the Arabs who were refugees outside the state and the property expropriated from the Arabs who remained in Israel became a major asset to the new state. According to Don Peretz, an American scholar, by 1954 "more than one-third of Israel's Jewish population lived on absentee property, and nearly a third of the new immigrants (250,000 people) settled in the urban areas abandoned by Arabs." The fleeing Arabs emptied thriving cities such as Jaffa, Acre (Akko), Lydda (Lod), and Ramla, plus "338 towns and villages and large parts of 94 other cities and towns, containing nearly a quarter of all the buildings in Israel."

To the Israeli Arabs, one of the more devastating aspects of the loss of their property was their knowledge that the loss was legally irreversible. The early Zionist settlers--particularly those of the Second Aliyah--adopted a rigid policy that land purchased or in any way acquired by a Jewish organization or individual could never again be sold, leased, or rented to a nonJew . The policy went so far as to preclude the use of non-Jewish labor on the land. This policy was carried over into the new state. At independence the State of Israel succeeded to the "state lands" of the British Mandate Authority, which had "inherited" the lands held by the government of the Ottoman Empire. The Jewish National Fund was the operating and controlling agency of the Land Development Authority and ensured that land once held by Jews-- either individually or by the "sovereign state of the Jewish people"--did not revert to non-Jews. This denied Israel's nonJewish , mostly Arab, population access to about 95 percent of the land.

Israel gets attacked. They move in. They occupy so they can reduce the attacks.

If the Palestinians would stop attacking, I can guarantee you, Israel would move out!

Another fallacy. If its about security, why does Israel continue with Settlements? Do you that Israel places settlements in the heart of Arab neighborhoods that costs alot of money, not to mention the security hassles that creates and the burden it places on the Arabs? For instance look at the former Gaza settlements and tell me they placed it where it is because of SECURITY. My ass. I can show you the ones in Hebron and other west bank cities.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40699000/gif/_40699840_israeli_settlements_416.gif

Lets call it what it is. Arabs want the jews off the land. Jews want the Arabs off the land. The media calls the Arabs barbabians because they don't hide it. While the Jews do it quietly and subtly and the media/us govt doesn't call them out, despite actually doing what the Arabs intent/want to do. If anything Arabs have more claim to the land because they've actually lived on it for centuries, while you have jews from russia, america, europe, africa claiming it when they have NO RIGHT other then its written in the bible.

Backdoorman

01-03-2009, 09:41 PM

it when they have NO RIGHT other then its written in the bible.

Jews first came to the land of Israel as a nation, in the year 1272 BCE. This dates back 1800-1900 years before Islam even began! For the next 13 centuries, Jewish Kings and prophets changed the world spiritually and culturally. Finally, the Jews were exiled by the Romans (their second exile) from being an autonomous ruling kingdom in Israel in the year 70 CE. This means that 600 years before Islam was even created - Jews were already yearning to come back to their land! Thus, it is impossible to begin looking in the year 638 CE to understand what's happening in the
Middle East, since there is a rich Jewish history much before.

Heath Ledger

01-03-2009, 10:05 PM

Israel is so gonna get nuked one day.

ElNono

01-03-2009, 11:29 PM

Using past history is preposterous. The borders are defined. Besides, Israel occupied that land long before the Palestinians. As the map shown earlier as Palestine, tell me. Who was the Head of State then?

Israel gets attacked. They move in. They occupy so they can reduce the attacks.

If the Palestinians would stop attacking, I can guarantee you, Israel would move out!

Personally, since men who desire power use Mohammad and Jihad to attack Israel over and over, I think Israel should just wipe them out take the land over and impose Marshall Law there as many generations as it takes to subdue the people there. It's far from a perfect answer, but it looks like nothing will work short of genocide.

There's no solution other than genocide. And Israel will not go that route for a number of logistical/political reasons, unless their foes have the means to wipe Israel off. The thing is, I think at this point genocide in that region is unavoidable. And if I had to wager where we'll see the next nuclear bomb, I would go all in on that region. But this is exactly why these skirmishes over Gaza serve no purpose other than to flex some muscle. You know these terrorists do not fight conventional wars. They'll go seek refuge now, use any civilian killed as propaganda to further their support, and will come back out as soon as things calm down a bit.

Darrin

01-04-2009, 07:55 AM

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/05/world/middleeast/05mideast.html?_r=1&hp

In a telephone briefing for a group of foreign correspondents, a senior Israeli military official said that Israeli troops would hold the areas they have taken inside Gaza at least for the duration of the operation to prevent militants from returning to fire rockets from there.

“We don’t plan to retake the Gaza Strip but there are several places we control now and will control later,” he said. “If it will be needed, we are prepared to stay there.”

The military has warned that the campaign could take “many long days.”

So much for a cease-fire and peaceful resolution to the ethnic conflict...again. Lucy just moved the football, Charlie Brown.

Darrin

01-04-2009, 07:57 AM

Hamas leaders in Gaza were in hiding, but a Hamas spokesman said Saturday night by video that the “moment of decision has arrived” and that Gaza would be the Israeli Army’s “graveyard.”

Darrin

01-04-2009, 07:59 AM

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/04/world/middleeast/04assess.html?hp

EREZ CROSSING, on the Israel-Gaza border — As Israel’s tanks and troops poured into Gaza on Saturday, the next phase in its fierce attempt to end rocket attacks, a question hung over the operation: can the rockets really be stopped for any length of time while Hamas remains in power in Gaza?

And if the answer is determined to be no, then is the real aim of the operation to remove Hamas entirely, no matter the cost?

After her visit to Paris on Thursday to explain to French authorities why she thought this was not the time for a quick cease-fire, Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni of Israel said, “There is no doubt that as long as Hamas controls Gaza, it is a problem for Israel, a problem for the Palestinians and a problem for the entire region.”

Vice Premier Haim Ramon went even further Friday night in an interview on Israeli television, saying Israel must not end this operation with Hamas in charge of Gaza.

“What I think we need to do is to reach a situation in which we do not allow Hamas to govern,” Mr. Ramon said on Channel One. “That is the most important thing.”

Neither Prime Minister Ehud Olmert nor Defense Minister Ehud Barak has made such a statement. Still, there is a growing and shared concern among Israeli leaders that any letup against Hamas would be problematic for Israel’s broad goals in the long term because it could bolster and validate the group, which says Israel should be destroyed.

“If the war ends in a draw, as expected, and Israel refrains from re-occupying Gaza, Hamas will gain diplomatic recognition,” wrote Aluf Benn, a political analyst, in the newspaper Haaretz on Friday. “No matter what you call it,” he added, “Hamas will obtain legitimacy.”

In addition, any potential truce deal would probably include an increase in commercial traffic from Israel and Egypt into Gaza, which is Hamas’s central demand: to end the economic boycott and border closing it has been facing. To build up the Gaza economy under Hamas, Israeli leaders say, would be to build up Hamas. Yet withholding the commerce would continue to leave 1.5 million Gazans living in despair.

Implicit in Mr. Benn’s argument, however, is that the only way to stop Hamas from gaining legitimacy is for Israel to fully occupy Gaza again, more than three years after removing its soldiers and settlers. That is a prospect practically no one in Israel or abroad is advocating.

Moreover, while it may sound decisive to speak of taking Hamas out of power, almost no one familiar with Gaza and Palestinian politics considers it realistic. Hamas legislators won a democratic majority in elections four years ago, and the group has 15,000 to 20,000 men under arms. It has consolidated its rule in the past 18 months since pushing out its rivals loyal to the more Western-oriented and moderate Fatah party of President Mahmoud Abbas, who sits in Ramallah in the West Bank.

And while there are plenty of Gazans who would prefer Fatah, they seem hardly organized or strong enough to become the new rulers, even with the help of former colleagues in exile in Ramallah who say, anyway, that they would never be willing to ride into Gaza on the back of an Israeli tank. In fact, the longer Israel pounds Gaza, the weaker Fatah is likely to become because it will be seen as collaborating.

The likelier result of a destruction of the Hamas infrastructure, then, would be chaos, anathema not only to the people of Gaza but also to those hoping for peace in southern Israel.

Yet in its campaign so far, which has killed scores of children and other bystanders, Israel has not spared the trappings of Hamas sovereignty or limited itself to military targets. It says that the mosques it has destroyed were weapons storehouses and that the Islamic University, which it has hit repeatedly, housed explosives factories. But it has also reduced many government buildings to rubble without any claim that they were military in nature.

“The government buildings are a place where financial, logistical and human resources serve to support terror,” said Capt. Benjamin Rutland, a spokesman for the Israeli military. “Much of the government is involved in the active support and planning of terror.”

Taken together, it suggests that even if Israel intends to hold back from completely overthrowing Hamas, its choice of assault tactics could head that way anyway. And the Israelis may already be facing a kind of mission creep: after all, if enough of Hamas’s infrastructure is destroyed, the prospect of governing Gaza, a densely populated, refugee-filled area whose weak economy has been devastated by the Israeli-led boycott, will be exceedingly difficult.

In the background, too, is broad international criticism of this war on Gaza, not only because of the unspeakable suffering seen on television screens but also because of a feeling that Israel has tried such tactics in the past and never succeeded.

In particular, many point to the 2006 war against Hezbollah in Lebanon, where Israel also tried to destroy rocket launchers and a hostile organization’s infrastructure, only to end up killing many civilians and leaving Hezbollah more popular and perhaps ultimately stronger than before the war.

But military planners here say that the parallel is inexact and that they, too, have learned a lesson. Gaza is smaller and flatter than southern Lebanon and, most important, does not have a sievelike border with a country like Syria where arms can be constantly resupplied. Destroying the smuggler tunnels from the Egyptian Sinai into Gaza and systematically eliminating weapons depots and launcher sites, along with their supporting infrastructures, will ultimately succeed, they contend.

It may take weeks or months, they assert, but it can work. If true, questions still remain: At what human cost? And who will be in charge when it is all over?

byrontx

01-04-2009, 10:06 AM

RobinsontoDuncan

01-04-2009, 12:25 PM

Aggie Hoopsfan

01-04-2009, 01:30 PM

This is bullshit. I don't want my tax dollars going to these racist ass holes in Israel anymore. We give a country of 5 million people $30 billion in aid every year just so they can make the Islamic world hate the US even more? A country as brutal as Israel doesn't deserve to exist.

You're right. We should get rid of Israel and let a culture that preaches the brutal hate and destruction of America take its place.

Good fucking call :tu

Seriously, how the fuck do you empathize with a population in Gaza whose adults teach their children that the only path in life is to strap a bomb to your chest and go to Israel and kill you some Jews?

THAT'S brutal. Those are the racist assholes who don't deserve to exist. Israel would happily live their lives in peace with the rest of the Middle East. Instead they're surrounded by assholes who want to exterminate them, who funnel their money and weapons to Hamas in a proxy war against the Jews.

Yeah, Israel really doesn't have a right to exist :rolleyes

hater

01-04-2009, 01:51 PM

There's no solution other than genocide. And Israel will not go that route for a number of logistical/political reasons, unless their foes have the means to wipe Israel off. The thing is, I think at this point genocide in that region is unavoidable. And if I had to wager where we'll see the next nuclear bomb, I would go all in on that region. But this is exactly why these skirmishes over Gaza serve no purpose other than to flex some muscle. You know these terrorists do not fight conventional wars. They'll go seek refuge now, use any civilian killed as propaganda to further their support, and will come back out as soon as things calm down a bit.

don't be crazy. that might be a solution but is not the only one. Right now Israel is doing well, they are so powerful they can control a lot of what goes on in Palestine. They will never let Palestine become powerful or armed. Yeah they will allow them to play with toy rockets but no major weapon. That way they can throttle the development of Palestine and never ever let them become anything more than a 3rd world country of ignorance and hate

hater

01-04-2009, 01:53 PM

You're right. We should get rid of Israel and let a culture that preaches the brutal hate and destruction of America take its place.

Good fucking call :tu

Seriously, how the fuck do you empathize with a population in Gaza whose adults teach their children that the only path in life is to strap a bomb to your chest and go to Israel and kill you some Jews?

THAT'S brutal. Those are the racist assholes who don't deserve to exist. Israel would happily live their lives in peace with the rest of the Middle East. Instead they're surrounded by assholes who want to exterminate them, who funnel their money and weapons to Hamas in a proxy war against the Jews.

Yeah, Israel really doesn't have a right to exist :rolleyes

you cannot call them that without calling Israel what they truly are. Israel is like an anaconda and is slowly tightening the grip on their prey, which is Palestine. it goes both ways

Rockhound

01-04-2009, 01:56 PM

I'll agree to the end of Israeli funding if ya'll agree to the opting out of social security.

SnakeBoy

01-04-2009, 02:55 PM

racist ass holes in Israel

I must have missed it. Did Israel say something negative about Obama?

Palkid

01-04-2009, 03:32 PM

This is what "Israel" doing in Gaza http://sabbah.blip.tv/#1642223 This video clip was taken with a mobile camera immediately after a terrorist Israeli air strike hit a busy market where kids with their mothers and fathers were searching for food to eat from one of the local markets early on Saturday 03, Jan 2009, Gaza Please spread the video widely. Let the world see what their news TV channels won't show about reality of Israel. Reupload it on youtube, Daily motion, google..or any other places

velik_m

01-04-2009, 03:38 PM

ChumpDumper

01-04-2009, 04:11 PM

Weren't Palestinians lobbing missiles into Israel? Do you post the results of those attacks on YouTube?

Winehole23

01-04-2009, 04:50 PM

This is not a resolvable conflict. The existence of Israel can never be acceptable to a Palestinian Muslim, and obviously the Israelis are not going to submit to obliteration. Since we can't turn the clock back to 1948 and decide not to partition Palestine, the best available option is for Israel to persist within its current borders. ... It will continue to be attacked by Arab Muslims from Palestine, Syria, and Lebanon, and will continue to respond to eliminate those threats. The best we can hope for is to mitigate the loss of human life, and frankly that can only be done by applying pressure to Israel, because the Palestinian leadership does not care.In public at least, our government seems to be unwilling to do so. It's a shame it doesn't from time to time. Our reluctance to voice criticism of Israel enhances the perception that the US is prejudiced in favor of Israel and unfair to Arabs. It also may tend to create the impression that US support of Israel is unconditional.

In today’s World, pacifism doesn’t serve to mollify, it merely allows the aggressor that we are attempting to appease additional leverage in their goals to subordinate, conquer and/or eliminate their targets. It’s truly naïve’ to believe that appeasing an enemy would serve to further peace with them.It's also naive to think that military force solves everything, and that pacifism is the only alternative to it. Calling negotiation and diplomacy "appeasement" only muddies the waters.

OTOH, the very possibility of a political solution depends on a modicum of mutual respect -- such as obtains between enemies. No deal can be done between foes who are pledged to mutual destruction.

It does seem at this point that leaving Hamas in power would be a strategic mistake. Maybe Israel can do in Gaza what it couldn't in Lebanon -- though, in fairness, it's been awhile since I heard of any rocket attacks from Lebanon.

Have there been any, JJ?

Why hasn't the U.N. sent Peace Keeping forces to stop these attacks? Good question. Has Israel asked them to? Does Israel need UN assistance?

They barely raise an eyebrow until Israel decided that enough is enough, and takes matters into their own hands, and then the action they do take is to condemn Israel.True enough. But the UN has little sway with non-state actors and other non-signatories. If signatories flaut the rules, they can expect to be picked on. I will say for the record that I think UN criticism of Israel is grossly disproportionate and generally unfair, but this is balanced somewhat by the US's Security Council veto wielded so consistently in its favor.

They are, as I stated earlier, a tool for terrorism, and a facilitator of anti-semitism.We also have UN to thank for the partition plan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_181) that created a Jewish state.

Israel thinks it can achieve peace through bombing the hell out of a desperate population?

We give a country of 5 million people $30 billion in aid every year just so they can make the Islamic world hate the US even more? That's one foreseeable result. I wonder what we're doing right now to balance out that perception.

A country as brutal as Israel doesn't deserve to exist.Cf. the invasion of Iraq. Do we deserve to exist?

When al-Bashir's government does this in Darfur we call it genocide, when Israel does it we call it self defense?Hmm. The comparison reveals more about your own commitments IMO than it does about the Israel/Palestinian conflict. The current Israeli attack on Gaza is violent and bloody, but it beggars credibility to compare it to the systematic depopulation of Darfur.

Nbadan

01-04-2009, 04:57 PM

Weren't Palestinians lobbing missiles into Israel? Do you post the results of those attacks on YouTube?

The Palestinian people (who are paying the highest price) aren't responsible for this...this things not ever going to be resolved until the Palestinians and the Israeli learn to live together peacefully..and turning Gaza into a (bigger) slum isn't going to rid the area of Hamas, or the need for Hamas..........I got an idea...how about Israel quits annexing Palestinian land and Hamas quits lobbing rockets at Israel....deal?

RobinsontoDuncan

01-04-2009, 05:01 PM

Weren't Palestinians lobbing missiles into Israel? Do you post the results of those attacks on YouTube?

Some Palestinians were launching the equivalent to surface to air missiles into Israelie settlement communities (those being the suburban housing developments the Israeli government builds in the Gaza strip after Palestinian houses and business places get bull dozed)

Those rockets have killed between 3-4 people over the past two years (according to Israel).

Do you blame the little kids in that video for those rockets?

And Aggie, what are you talking about? You don't think Israelis are taught to hate the Palestinians from an early age? In any event, why don't you look at the casualties on both sides of this equation and tell me who has done the most to whom? Just think about it for christ's sake, on one side you have the Israeli soldiers that have our abrahms tanks and our airforce fighters and then you have the Palestinians who have rocks and suicide bombs.... which one is gonna win that fight?

And no, I don't think my tax dollars should go to Israel's defense budget so they can do this shit. This ridiculous idea that Israel is going to be wiped off the face of the map is ludicrous, and no one actually believes it's going to happen. In any event, nothing the Israelies are doing right now is going to help their long term security.

When 1.5 million people are packed into a territory the size of Carlton-Farmers Branch and they are forced to spend 70% of their income on drinkable water (that figure was before the blockade, I have no idea how much it costs now) while Israeli residents in their subdivision settlements waste tons of water on their manicured lawns, you think there isn't going to be any resentment?

Get a clue, if you were a Palestinian, you would hate the Israelis too. The fact that these people can't immigrate anywhere doesn't make the problem and better either.

Winehole23

01-04-2009, 05:02 PM

Dude, did you sign up to this forum just to spread pro-palestinian propaganda?Balance.

Even if he did, he'll never make up for the non-stop propagandizing of Israeli officialdom on cable TV right now.

Nbadan

01-04-2009, 05:07 PM

This was the UN's screw-up...originally....but we do give Israel billions of dollars in aid...that they use to buy the missiles they are lobbying into Gaza...we give the Palestinians humanitarian millions of dollars in aid too, but not access to the military technology we give Israel access....

Nbadan

01-04-2009, 05:09 PM

Balance.

Even if he did, he'll never make up for the non-stop propagandizing of Israeli officialdom on cable TV right now.

I'm seeing the dark-hand of Dick Cheney at work here....could Iran be next?

:downspin:

ChumpDumper

01-04-2009, 05:15 PM

Some Palestinians were launching the equivalent to surface to air missiles into Israelie settlement communities (those being the suburban housing developments the Israeli government builds in the Gaza strip after Palestinian houses and business places get bull dozed)

Those rockets have killed between 3-4 people over the past two years (according to Israel).

Do you blame the little kids in that video for those rockets?I blame the Palestinians who are willing to put their children at risk just to be able to lob ineffective missiles into Israel for the sole purpose of terror.

Backdoorman

01-04-2009, 06:04 PM

Some Palestinians were launching the equivalent to surface to air missiles into Israelie settlement communities (those being the suburban housing developments the Israeli government builds in the Gaza strip after Palestinian houses and business places get bull dozed)

Those rockets have killed between 3-4 people over the past two years (according to Israel).

.

Years ? :wow

Actually those rockets have killed 4 innocent civilians over the last 6 days.

Their aim, as all sensible people know, is to kill as many Jews as possible. They aim their weapons purely and simply at civilians. Sadly for them their technology isn't good enough and the bastard Israelis treat civilian defence seriously.

E20

01-04-2009, 06:55 PM

Great Britain should have rethought there initial plan 60 years ago.

Aggie Hoopsfan

01-04-2009, 08:29 PM

The Palestinian people (who are paying the highest price) aren't responsible for this...this things not ever going to be resolved until the Palestinians and the Israeli learn to live together peacefully..and turning Gaza into a (bigger) slum isn't going to rid the area of Hamas, or the need for Hamas..........I got an idea...how about Israel quits annexing Palestinian land and Hamas quits lobbing rockets at Israel....deal?

Bullshit. They put Hamas in power. They don't want peace though, it's not what their religious leaders tell them the Qur'an says to do.

Aggie Hoopsfan

01-04-2009, 08:34 PM

And Aggie, what are you talking about? You don't think Israelis are taught to hate the Palestinians from an early age? In any event, why don't you look at the casualties on both sides of this equation and tell me who has done the most to whom? Just think about it for christ's sake, on one side you have the Israeli soldiers that have our abrahms tanks and our airforce fighters and then you have the Palestinians who have rocks and suicide bombs.... which one is gonna win that fight?

Israelis are not taught to hate the Palestinians from childhood. They are taught that the Palestinians teach their children to kill Jews from childhood. Damn them for pointing out facts.

Everyone knows who's going to win the 'fight', that's why the people of Palestine need to realize that terror attacks against Israel aren't going to get them anything other than their heads handed to them.

Yet the leaders of Hamas keep firing rockets into Israel, and Palestinians keep teaching their kids that they can have no higher calling in their life than to strap a bomb to their chest and go blow up a bunch of Jews.

Until the culture changes in the Palestinian territories (namely, that they decide they want peace instead of the extermination of the Jews), they deserve whatever beatdowns they get when they fire enough missiles (like recently) to piss off Israel.

-------

Somehow, I bet if Mexico was lobbing missiles into Texas every day that were raining down on San Antonio, you'd probably be screaming for the US Military to do something about it.

Or would you just come on here and cry after we went to town with stealth fighters, F-22s, B-52s, Abrams, etc. about how brutal and one-sided things went?

:rolleyes

ElNono

01-04-2009, 09:15 PM

don't be crazy. that might be a solution but is not the only one. Right now Israel is doing well, they are so powerful they can control a lot of what goes on in Palestine. They will never let Palestine become powerful or armed. Yeah they will allow them to play with toy rockets but no major weapon. That way they can throttle the development of Palestine and never ever let them become anything more than a 3rd world country of ignorance and hate

If you think Israel is only fighting Palestine, you need to get informed better... There's a long list of countries in that region that would love to see Israel wiped out of the planet.

ElNono

01-04-2009, 09:18 PM

Bullshit. They put Hamas in power. They don't want peace though, it's not what their religious leaders tell them the Qur'an says to do.

And Israel wants peace? Israel wants to keep on sending messages to Iran, Lebanon, Syria, etc that they're not to be messed with. The Palestinian are a poor excuse for the showing...

Wild Cobra

01-04-2009, 09:23 PM

Bullshit. They put Hamas in power. They don't want peace though, it's not what their religious leaders tell them the Qur'an says to do.

You miss one key point. The People thought Hamas was going to help the people, not become the government they have. They promised so many social programs like our democrats do. Hamas learned the politics of the USA well, and duped the voters.

RobinsontoDuncan

01-04-2009, 10:59 PM

Hmm. The comparison reveals more about your own commitments IMO than it does about the Israel/Palestinian conflict. The current Israeli attack on Gaza is violent and bloody, but it beggars credibility to compare it to the systematic depopulation of Darfur.

I bring up this example for a reason. al-Bashir's government does the exact same thing. They label the rebel fighters terrorists, and then they use their airforce to bomb tiny villages in Darfur in order to stop "terrorist attacks." Since there aren't too many rebel fighters to begin with, it's obvious nonsense to blame poor people in some Darfurian village that generally don't know what the violence is about, but that's the logic of the Sudanese government.

If you put the two cases side by side, they are almost mirror images of each other in terms of tactics, government rhetoric, and proportionality of retaliation.

RobinsontoDuncan

01-04-2009, 11:06 PM

You sound a little racist yourself there Aggie.

Bullshit. They put Hamas in power. They don't want peace though, it's not what their religious leaders tell them the Qur'an says to do.

Israelis are not taught to hate the Palestinians from childhood. They are taught that the Palestinians teach their children to kill Jews from childhood. Damn them for pointing out facts.

Everyone knows who's going to win the 'fight', that's why the people of Palestine need to realize that terror attacks against Israel aren't going to get them anything other than their heads handed to them.

Yet the leaders of Hamas keep firing rockets into Israel, and Palestinians keep teaching their kids that they can have no higher calling in their life than to strap a bomb to their chest and go blow up a bunch of Jews.

Until the culture changes in the Palestinian territories (namely, that they decide they want peace instead of the extermination of the Jews), they deserve whatever beatdowns they get when they fire enough missiles (like recently) to piss off Israel.

And you have never been to Palestine so stop making these bullshit totalizing claims. There are desperate, poor, miserable people living in Gaza and some of them do hate the Israelis because of it. You're fooling yourself if you think Israelis aren't taught to hate Palestinians though, how else could an air force pilot drop a bomb on a school bus and smile in front of the television cameras like he is a hero?

jochhejaam

01-05-2009, 08:01 AM

It does seem at this point that leaving Hamas in power would be a strategic mistake. Maybe Israel can do in Gaza what it couldn't in Lebanon -- though, in fairness, it's been awhile since I heard of any rocket attacks from Lebanon.

Have there been any, JJ?

Keep in mind that we're talking about "incoming" here, so heaven only knows.

Extra Stout

01-05-2009, 08:06 AM

I suppose if somebody kicked you out of your own house in the first place, you wouldn't do something about it?
I don't think you want to start justifying irredentism based upon past injustices.

MannyIsGod

01-05-2009, 08:26 AM

I blame the Palestinians who are willing to put their children at risk just to be able to lob ineffective missiles into Israel for the sole purpose of terror.

Thats pretty retarded reasoning. I don't even think you need me to explain why.

MannyIsGod

01-05-2009, 08:27 AM

You miss one key point. The People thought Hamas was going to help the people, not become the government they have. They promised so many social programs like our democrats do. Hamas learned the politics of the USA well, and duped the voters.

I have never agreed with WC until now.

Extra Stout

01-05-2009, 09:00 AM

Jews first came to the land of Israel as a nation, in the year 1272 BCE. This dates back 1800-1900 years before Islam even began! For the next 13 centuries, Jewish Kings and prophets changed the world spiritually and culturally. Finally, the Jews were exiled by the Romans (their second exile) from being an autonomous ruling kingdom in Israel in the year 70 CE. This means that 600 years before Islam was even created - Jews were already yearning to come back to their land! Thus, it is impossible to begin looking in the year 638 CE to understand what's happening in the
Middle East, since there is a rich Jewish history much before.
This is just another form of religious irredentism. If we followed your argument to its logical conclusion, then all persons of European descent would be obliged to vacate the Western Hemisphere, since Amerindians have a rich history in the Americans for centuries long before Europeans began to arrive and settle.

Europeans guilty about the culmination of anti-Semitism got together with American Dispensationalists to give the Zionists what they wanted. Since the British controlled the area at the time, they had the power to execute the partition. The United Nations signed off on it. I don't know how much of the international consensus was real and how much was strongarmed by the great powers, but there it is.

No, the Europeans and Americans really didn't have a right to take some other peoples' land and give it to somebody else to solve a problem Europeans caused. Until the creation of Israel, Arabs were probably more tolerant of Jews than Europeans were (not saying much!).

We're 60 years into this now, and dismantling the Israeli state would be a greater injustice than creating it was in the first place. This issue gets a ton of attention because the conflict was ongoing, but it is not the only instance of forced relocation that went on in the world in the aftermath of World War II. Should Greeks and Armenians have the "right of return" into Turkey, for example?

I'm not saying the creation of Israel was the right or justifiable thing to do, but it's a moot point because it happened. The list of countries whose existence is not "right" or "justifiable" by our 21st-century definitions is quite long and includes the United States.

Shastafarian

01-05-2009, 09:17 AM

I admit to some burned out apathy here. The Jews and Palestinians seem to deserve each other. Electing Hamas was a "please keep beating me collective idiotic move" and the Zionists will only stop their bible prophecy fulfillment when a nuke goes off in Tel Aviv.

I really wish some people in this thread would stop generalizing like this. A good portion of the Israeli people want nothing but peace. Their government controls what the military does and tells them they're in danger. Then, when people start blowing up, the Israelis listen and elect people whom they think can make peace happen (even if it means military incursions). So all you people who generalize and say "jews" or "israel sucks" can suck my dick.

Darrin

01-05-2009, 10:56 AM

I admit to some burned out apathy here. The Jews and Palestinians seem to deserve each other. Electing Hamas was a "please keep beating me collective idiotic move" and the Zionists will only stop their bible prophecy fulfillment when a nuke goes off in Tel Aviv.

To want peace and work for it is one thing. It seems the militants on both sides have too much control. They've assasinated leaders, bombed citizens, held wars, and kept prisoners. This is the worst situation I can imagine and I too have to admit to apathy because the roller-coaster ride and paper peace has been with us for so long.

Heath Ledger

01-05-2009, 11:54 AM

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and hoping for different results.

Israel thinks it can achieve peace through bombing the hell out of a desperate population? What the hell are these people smoking? How many people have been killed by rockets fired off by Hamas? Nothing in comparison to the death toll a few days of unleashing American military equipment has wrought on a defenseless population.

This is bullshit. I don't want my tax dollars going to these racist ass holes in Israel anymore. We give a country of 5 million people $30 billion in aid every year just so they can make the Islamic world hate the US even more? A country as brutal as Israel doesn't deserve to exist.

When al-Bashir's government does this in Darfur we call it genocide, when Israel does it we call it self defense?

Moron of the day award goes to , survey says??????? ding ding ding we have a winner. you sir are not only a moron but are blind as a bat. Is it disgusting that kids and women are innocently dying at the hands of Israel? Sure it is, but Israel is defending their country, they are sick of minding their own business and having rockets raind down on them indiscriminantly. These rocket attacks are so commonplace that the media doesnt even bother reporting them any more, they don't kill as many, perhaps a few people here or a few people there but Israel is well within their rights to defend their country and eradicate the fuckers terrorizing their country with these rocket attacks. Palestine should be happy with the land Israel let them keep, back in the day when all this shit started, Palestinians sought out a fight with the jews, the jews kicked their ass and took some of their land, they got what they deserved.

temujin

01-05-2009, 12:13 PM

I heard US Vice-president Dick Cheney candidly admitting that the Israelis didn't bother informing -much less asking US permission- as far as the measures they were taking to solve the gaza "troubles".

Is that right.

Can we trust Mr. Cheney on this subject?

Interesting.

The annual $ 3-6 BILLIONS the US taxpayers are handing to Israel are not worth a phone call to the US taxpayers' representatives.

This more than anything should tell who is running the show, and what the Israelis think of the US taxpayers.

Good luck!!!!!

Shastafarian

01-05-2009, 12:17 PM

RobinsontoDuncan

01-05-2009, 12:20 PM

Moron of the day award goes to , survey says??????? ding ding ding we have a winner. you sir are not only a moron but are blind as a bat.

Yes, clearly a difference of opinion (even an informed one) makes me a blind old fool. At least I've been there and seen the problem with my own two eyes.

Is it disgusting that kids and women are innocently dying at the hands of Israel? Sure it is, but Israel is defending their country, they are sick of minding their own business and having rockets raind down on them indiscriminantly.

If you define "defending" as ensuring future violence, then by all means, Israel is doing a bang up job.

These rocket attacks are so commonplace that the media doesnt even bother reporting them any more, they don't kill as many, perhaps a few people here or a few people there but Israel is well within their rights to defend their country and eradicate the fuckers terrorizing their country with these rocket attacks.

You don't think the Palestinians think the same damn thing? It's this stupid attitude that allows the cycle of violence to continue in the first place. You don't think there are little kids that are growing up to think they have a right to defend themselves by "eradicating the fuckers" that bombed their little brother or sisters school bus?

who's the moron again?

Palestine should be happy with the land Israel let them keep, back in the day when all this shit started, Palestinians sought out a fight with the jews, the jews kicked their ass and took some of their land, they got what they deserved.

Go live there for a week, you'll be changing your tune.

And BTW, you're wrong. The Zionist movement began in the 1900s as a response to European anti-Semitism. The Jews that established Israel in 1947 had that intention the entire time.

temujin

01-05-2009, 12:32 PM

I'm sure the Israelis are more concerned with the safety of their own citizens than with how American taxpayers are gonna feel. But no, you're right. They should call every time they wanna blow their nose.

Killing a thousand or so of the noisy natives is no more than blowing their nose.
So you are right.
The guy that foots the bill is ALWAYS right.

Extra Stout

01-05-2009, 01:10 PM

If you define "defending" as ensuring future violence, then by all means, Israel is doing a bang up job.
I don't think Israel has any option that averts future violence.

Earlier in the thread, you claimed that Palestinian rockets were being fired just at Jewish settlements in the Gaza Strip. This is not true. You do know that Israel completely withdrew from Gaza and demolished all settlements back in 2005, right? They dragged the settlers out kicking and screaming.

The rockets are being fired into southern Israel. The city of Ashdod is a popular target. Something like 3,000 rockets and mortar shells have been fired into Israel. The only limiting factor is the inability of Hamas to get a steady supply of ammunition.

Israeli doves had said that Israel let the Palestinians govern themselves without occupation, they might get along with the business of living rather than fighting. Israeli hawks said that if they pulled out of Gaza, it would just give Hamas and friends a stronghold to attack Israel. The hawks were proven correct.

RobinsontoDuncan

01-05-2009, 01:47 PM

I don't think Israel has any option that averts future violence.

Earlier in the thread, you claimed that Palestinian rockets were being fired just at Jewish settlements in the Gaza Strip. This is not true. You do know that Israel completely withdrew from Gaza and demolished all settlements back in 2005, right? They dragged the settlers out kicking and screaming.

The rockets are being fired into southern Israel. The city of Ashdod is a popular target. Something like 3,000 rockets and mortar shells have been fired into Israel. The only limiting factor is the inability of Hamas to get a steady supply of ammunition.

Israeli doves had said that Israel let the Palestinians govern themselves without occupation, they might get along with the business of living rather than fighting. Israeli hawks said that if they pulled out of Gaza, it would just give Hamas and friends a stronghold to attack Israel. The hawks were proven correct.

You're right, Israel pulled out of settlements in Gaza, I was thinking of the settlements they still have in West Bank.

You wrong, however, if you think there is nothing Israel can do to stop future violence. Since the Israelis left in 2005 they have been halting the distribution of international aid in Gaza, they have instituted the much debated blockade of Gaza that has cut off the limited economy that remained there, and they have supplied Fatah with weapons and instigated a civil war.

Israeli politicians use the most extreme wing of Hamas as a propaganda tool to avoid meaningful dialog. It's a stalling tactic that Israel uses to delay the institution of the two state system.

If Israel would make an actual commitment to improving the conditions in Gaza and negotiating with Hamas, the situation could get better there. There is also a UN peacekeeping resolution for the Palestinian territories which the Israeli state has refused to allow to operate.

The violence will continue until both sides are strong enough to let the extremists that would seek to derail the peace process win. Over responding to Hamas is exactly what the extremists wanted, and Israeli politicians are playing right into their hands. For what? Political posturing before the elections?

Shastafarian

01-05-2009, 01:50 PM

Killing a thousand or so of the noisy natives is no more than blowing their nose.
So you are right.
The guy that foots the bill is ALWAYS right.

So should we consult China every time we attack sovereign nations?

DarrinS

01-05-2009, 01:55 PM

RobinsontoDuncan

01-05-2009, 01:56 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090105/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians

US joins press for truce as Gaza onslaught goes on

By IBRAHIM BARZAK and AMY TEIBEL, Associated Press Writers

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip – Israel seized control of high-rise buildings and attacked houses, mosques and smuggling tunnels as it pressed its offensive against the Gaza Strip's Hamas rulers on Monday, while the U.S. joined a stream of countries pushing for a cease-fire.

At least 14 Palestinian children were killed on Monday, raising the known Palestinian death toll from the 10-day onslaught to 540 — including 200 civilians, the U.N. and Palestinian officials said. Gaza's biggest hospital said it was overwhelmed.

Five Israelis have died since the operation began.

From Gaza, Hamas continued to pummel southern Israel with more than two dozen rockets on Monday, including one that struck an empty kindergarten in the city of Ashdod, and promised to wait for Israeli soldiers "in every street and every alleyway."

Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak said the offensive would go on until Israel achieved "peace and tranquility" for residents of southern Israel.

After a week of air strikes beginning Dec. 27, Israeli ground troops invaded Gaza late Saturday. They quickly seized a main highway in Gaza, slicing the territory in half, and on Monday, Israeli forces pounded houses — one of them belonging to a leading Hamas member who was not there at the time — a pair of mosques and smuggling tunnels.

Israel has attacked several mosques during the campaign, saying they were used to store weapons.

The Israeli army said "dozens" of militants have been killed or wounded, but Hamas has not released casualty figures. A Palstinian health official said 80 people — including 70 civilians — have died since the ground invasion began, fueling international outrage.

Israel has three main demands: an end to Palestinian attacks, international supervision of any truce and a halt to Hamas rearming. Hamas demands a cessation of Israeli attacks and the opening of vital Gaza-Israel cargo crossings, Gaza's main lifeline.

In Washington, the State Department said the U.S. was pressing for a cease-fire that would include three main elements, including a halt to rocket attacks.

"We're doing a lot of work on these three elements," said spokesman Sean McCormack said, adding that the goal is to establish a halt to the violence that would meet Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice's standard of being durable and sustainable.

President George W. Bush, however, emphasized "Israel's desire to protect itself."

"The situation now taking place in Gaza was caused by Hamas," he said in the Oval Office.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy, who unsuccessfully proposed a two-day truce before the land invasion began, was due to meet Monday with Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, who lost control of Gaza to Hamas in June 2007.

While blaming Hamas for causing Palestinian suffering with rocket fire that led to the Israeli offensive, Sarkozy has condemned Israel's use of ground troops, reflecting general world opinion. Sarkozy and other diplomats making their way to the region are expected to press hard for a cease-fire.

A European Union delegation met with Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni on Monday.

"The EU insists on a cease-fire at the earliest possible moment," said Karel Schwarzenberg, the foreign minister of the Czech Republic, which took over the EU's presidency last week. Rocket attacks on Israel also must stop, Schwarzenberg told a joint news conference with Livni.

The EU brought no truce proposals of its own to the region because the cease-fire "must be concluded by the involved parties," he added.

Livni said the operation was designed to change the rules of Israel's struggle against Hamas after seven years of rocket fire at Israeli towns. From now on, she said, "When Israel is targeted, Israel is going to retaliate."

Israel's operation angered many across the Arab world and has drawn criticism from countries like Turkey, Egypt and Jordan, which have ties with Israel and have been involved intimately in Mideast peacemaking.

The Palestinian foreign minister, Riad Malki, who works within the rival Fatah administration from the West Bank, asked the U.N. Security Council to quickly adopt a resolution calling for an immediate end to Israeli attacks in Gaza and a permanent cease-fire including border monitors and an international force to protect civilians.

Israeli forces seized sparsely populated areas in northern Gaza and by Monday morning were dug in on the edges of Gaza City.

Gaza's biggest hospital, Shifa, has been swamped by the bloodshed. Bodies were two to a morgue drawer, the wounded were being treated in hallways because beds were full, and three preschool boys killed in an artillery strike Monday were laid out on a floor.

Since Israel mounted its ground offensive three days ago, most of the dead and wounded arriving at Shifa have been civilians, including 21 who died in various attacks across Gaza on Monday.

Fourteen of them were children, said health official Dr. Moaiya Hassanain.

Four young siblings were killed in a missile strike on a house east of Gaza City, Hassanain said, and a mother and her four children were killed in another strike. Three other children died in a naval shelling of a Gaza City beach camp, and three toddlers died in an attack on another town outside Gaza City, a different Gaza health official said.

Israeli troops seized three six-story buildings on the outskirts of Gaza City, taking up rooftop positions after locking residents in rooms and taking away their cell phones, a neighbor said, quoting a relative in one of the buildings who called before his phone was taken away.

"The army is there, firing in all directions," said Mohammed Salmai, a 29-year-old truck driver. "All we can do is take clothes to each other to keep ourselves warm and pray to God that if we die, someone will find our bodies under the rubble."

Civilian casualties have spiked since Israel launched the ground offensive. Of the 80 confirmed deaths, at least 70 were civilians, Hassanain said.

Maj. Avital Leibovich, an Israeli military spokeswoman, said Hamas was to blame for civilian casualties because it operates in densely populated areas.

"If Hamas chose cynically to use those civilians as human shields, then Hamas should be accountable," she said. "Civilians will probably continue to get killed, unfortunately, because Hamas put them in the first lines of fire."

Black smoke from tank shells and wind-swept dust billowed in the air over Gaza City, home to 400,000 people, where the streets were almost empty. Two children crossing a street near a Hamas security compound didn't bother to look right and left for cars but gazed up at the sky, apparently looking for attack aircraft.

Unmanned Israeli planes and Apache helicopters circled overhead.

Hamas leaders went into hiding before the Israeli military strike began and only on rare occasions have addressed the Gaza residents in broadcasts from their hideouts.

On Monday, Hamas leader Mahmoud Zahar exhorted Palestinians to fight the Israeli forces and target Israeli civilians.

"The Zionists have legitimized the killing of their children by killing our children. They have legitimized the killing of their people all over the world by killing our people," Zahar said in a grainy video broadcast on Hamas TV.

Playing right into their hands

A spokesman for Hamas' military wing, identified by a nom de guerre, Abu Obeida, warned the Israelis that militants "wait for you in every street and every alleyway."

The ground clashes took place in open areas militants use to launch rockets and mortars at nearby Israeli communities, but did not advance into urban areas where casualties are liable to swell.

The Israeli military said aircraft carried out 30 sorties overnight, including strikes against a mosque in Jebaliya that contained a large store of weapons and an underground arms bunker in the Gaza City area that touched off secondary explosions and collapsed underground smuggling tunnels.

The violence has deepened the suffering in impoverished Gaza, home to 1.4 million people. The military said Monday that 80 truckloads of humanitarian aid and critical fuel supplies would be let in.

Israel's ground operation is the second phase in an offensive that began as a weeklong aerial onslaught aimed at halting Hamas rocket fire that now threatens major cities and one-eighth of Israel's population of 7 million people.

Among the Israelis killed since the offensive began included a soldier who died in the ground operation. Heavy Israeli casualties could undermine what has so far been overwhelming public support for the operation.

Shastafarian

01-05-2009, 01:59 PM

RobinsontoDuncan

01-05-2009, 01:59 PM

Jewish Voice for Peace (http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/publish/article_17.shtml)

Peace, U.S. Military Aid and Israel

Why we urge the U.S. government to suspend military aid to Israel until it ends its 37-year occupation of the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem.

U.S. military aid to Israel has a dramatic effect on Israel's policies towards the Palestinians. It has increasingly been used not to pay for defense but to finance the Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands. It keeps Israel from facing the difficult but necessary challenges of building a more democratic society, and encourages solving deep-rooted problems by military rather than peaceful and more effective means.

The U.S. funding that pays for the guns and ammunition, F-16 bombers, and Apache helicopters that are used to carry out Israel's occupation of Palestinian land and people serves neither Israelis, Palestinians, nor Americans.

In short, Israel cannot build a society based on the principles of democracy, human rights, and compliance with international law while brutally occupying another people and their land. The United States is currently paying for that occupation with its annual aid. That's why Jewish Voice for Peace urges the U.S. government to suspend military aid to Israel until Israel ends its 37-year occupation of the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem.

Top Five Things You Should Know About U.S. Military Aid to Israel

1. Harm to Palestinian civilians
A large part of U.S. military aid to Israel goes to purchase tanks, helicopter gunships, machine guns, and bullets that are used against Palestinian civilians. Our tax dollars have been used to destroy homes; uproot trees and crops; seize land from its lawful owners; close all access to food, medicine, and the outside world for small towns in the West Bank and Gaza; staff checkpoints that cut off ambulances and other civilian traffic; and carry out assassinations that kill children in addition to summarily executing political leaders. When Palestinian doctors remove bullets from the bodies of Palestinian children, the bullets are typically stamped ?Made in the U.S.A.?

Israel has used its U.S.-financed arsenal against unarmed Palestinian civilians, including children. Amnesty International reports that in 2002 alone, ?At least 1,000 Palestinians were killed by the Israeli army, most of them unlawfully. They included some 150 children and at least 35 individuals killed in targeted assassinations. Certain abuses committed by the Israeli army constituted war crimes.?[including] unlawful killings, obstruction of medical assistance and targeting of medical personnel, extensive and wanton destruction of property, torture and cruel and inhuman treatment, unlawful confinement and the use of "`human shields."?

?The IDF continued to demolish houses and destroy agricultural land and industrial installations throughout the Gaza Strip?.The IDF routinely used F-16 fighter jets, helicopter gunships, and tanks to bomb and shell Palestinian residential areas in response to gunfire or mortar attacks by Palestinians or in reprisal for suicide bombings and other attacks??

Go to Amnesty International for more reports on the Occupied Territories and Israel.

2. Harm to Israelis
In addition to the devastation it visits on Palestinians, the occupation threatens the democratic values Israel seeks to uphold. Massive military aid promotes militarism, which has led to a reliance on military, rather than diplomatic means to work for a solution to this ongoing conflict. More and more Israelis question the moral decay that accompanies the criminal actions of the military and the dehumanization of the Palestinian people. A peace rally at the height of Israel?s reoccupation of the main towns of the West Bank in April 2002 drew 15,000 protestors in Tel Aviv. Currently nearly 1,200 Israeli army reservists refuse to serve in the Occupied Territories because the occupation corrupts Israeli society and endangers, rather than enhances, the security of Israelis. Israeli activists support the suspension of U.S. military aid to Israel; in the words of feminist activist Rela Mazali, ?[T]he U.S. foots most of the bills run up by this siege and makes some of the most lethal weapons used to maintain it. We hope you will tell your government to stop arming the conflict.?

3. Harm to the U.S. and its citizens
Israel is required to use 75% of its military aid from the U.S. to buy arms and equipment such as Caterpillar bulldozers made in the U.S. It funnels this money to more than 1,000 U.S. arms suppliers, which in turn lobby for U.S. policies that benefit them at the expense of peace in the Middle East. As a result, the diversion of our tax dollars not only reduces funding for education and social programs but militarizes our public policy overall. U.S. military aid to Israel sets the U.S. in opposition to many Arab and European nations who recognize the horrors of the occupation. This makes U.S. citizens less safe because we are more hated. And the massive flow of arms into Israel is made even more dangerous by arms sales of lesser quality to other Middle Eastern countries such as Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia. While all this business fills the coffers of arms merchants, it makes the Middle East ever more unstable. Furthermore, when our government arms proponents of massive human rights abuses, we become complicit in their crimes and hated by their victims. U.S. support of Israel?s occupation of Palestinian lands and its abuse of human rights undermines any moral authority to criticize human rights abuses in other countries. And it shreds the U.S. of any credibility in acting to promote peace in the region.

4. Violations of U.S. and international law
U.S. law prohibits the president from furnishing military aid to any country ?which engages in a consistent pattern of gross violations of internationally recognized human rights.? 22 U.S.C. ? 2304(a). The U.S. Department of State reported in March 2003 that, ?Israel's overall human rights record in the occupied territories remained poor and worsened in several areas as it continued to commit serious human rights abuses?.Israeli security units used excessive force during Palestinian demonstrations, while on patrol, pursuing suspects, and enforcing checkpoints and curfews, which resulted in many deaths.? Targeting civilians, as Israel has done, is a war crime under the Fourth Geneva Convention. The fact that Palestinian groups have done the same makes it no less criminal. For more information on these human rights violations visit www.btselem.org, and web.amnesty.org/report2003/2md-index-eng.

5. Aid is excessive and disproportionate
More U.S. aid goes to Israel than any other country, even though Israel?s per capita income is as high as many European countries. In fiscal year 2003 Israel received a foreign military financing grant of $3.1 billion and a $600 million grant for economic security in addition to $11 billion in commercial loan guarantees. This total aid package of nearly $15 billion makes Israel by far the largest single recipient of U.S. aid. U.S. aid is a function of politics. According to a Time/CNN poll, released April 12, 2002, 60% of Americans favor cutting aid to Israel if Israel does not immediately withdraw its troops from Palestinian areas. Further, U.S. aid to other countries is often tied to various conditions, depending on what the U.S. wants the aid recipient to do. We are asking that aid to Israel be treated in the same manner.

Pouring arms into an area of the world already plagued by violence can only increase death and destruction and render the U.S. a questionable broker for peace at best. In these hard economic days, that money can be put to use in the U.S. or it could be used to build a stable Palestinian society, out of the devastation that exists there now. The Israeli economy has been in a downward spiral for years, and foreign investment has long been directly related to the level of violence in the region. Using military aid as a lever to end the occupation will be a boon to the security and hopes for the future for both Israelis and Palestinians.

Key Facts

* Total direct aid to Israel, 1948-2003
$89.9 billion (uncorrected for inflation)
* Since 1976 Israel has been the largest annual recipient of US aid. It is the largest cumulative recipient since World War II.
* Direct U.S. aid for each Israeli citizen in 2001 (per capita annual income of Israel = $16,710) -- over $500
* Direct U.S. Aid for each Ethiopian citizen in 2001 (per capita annual income of Ethiopia = $100) -- about $.45
* REGULAR US GRANT AID in FY 2003
$2.76 billion military aid grant
$2.1 billion economic support funds
$600 million refugee resettlement grant
* COMMERCIAL LOAN GUARANTEES IN FY 2003
$2 billion
* BUSH ADMINISTRATION SUPPLEMENTAL REQUEST FOR FY 2003
Military aid grant $1 billion
Commercial loan guarantees $9 billion
Arrow missile development $60 million
* TOTAL AID FOR FY 2003 $14.82 billion
* Percentage of U.S. foreign aid that goes to Israel -- 30%
* Israel's population as a percentage of world population -- .01%
* Section 116 of the Foreign Assistance Act (FAA) states, "No assistance may be provided under this part to the government of any country which engages in a consistent pattern of gross violations of internationally recognized human rights." 22 U.S.C. 2304(a)
* Section 4 of the Arms Export Control Act prohibits selling military equipment to countries that use them for non-self-defense purposes.
* The U.S. State Department determined in February 2001 that Israel has committed each of the acts that the law defines as "gross violations of internationally recognized human rights, including torture or cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment, prolonged detention without charges and trial, causing the disappearance of persons by the abduction and clandestine detention of those persons, and other flagrant denials of the right to life, liberty, or the security of person." It described Israeli army use of live ammunition against Palestinians when soldiers were not in impending danger as "excessive use of force."

SOURCES: Clyde R. Mark, ?Israel: U.S. Foreign Assistance, Congressional Research Service, updated April 1, 2003; Clyde R. Mark, Middle East: U.S. Foreign Assistance, FY 2001, FY 2002, FY 2003 Congressional Research Service, March 28, 2002

Questions on JVP's Stand

Do you seek the destruction of Israel?
No. By linking the suspension of military aid to the occupation, we make clear that we are not calling for the abandonment or destruction of Israel. Israel?s ability to defend itself will not be compromised by this proposed suspension of aid. Indeed, it will be enhanced by ending the occupation. We are calling for Israel to comply with international law and the principles of democracy and human rights.

What's your position on economic aid?
While Jewish Voice for Peace does not call for the suspension of economic aid to Israel, we do believe that such aid should be based on need and that Israel should be required to comply with the same laws and standards, and be subjected to the same congressional supervision as other aid recipients.

Won't a suspension of military aid endanger Israel and increase violence against Israelis?
Ending the occupation would hasten peace between Israelis and Palestinians, as well as with Israel?s Arab neighbors. A reduction of military aid to Israel by even a small amount would create strong pressure to end the occupation. Israel?s military superiority will still be there, as will Israel?s alliance with the United States. Further, in the event the occupation ends, if Israel were attacked without provocation, it would have most of the world supporting it. As long as it continues its occupation, Israel will continue to be seen as the aggressor in this conflict by most of the world.

Winehole23

01-05-2009, 02:11 PM

I bring up this example for a reason. al-Bashir's government does the exact same thing. They label the rebel fighters terrorists, and then they use their airforce to bomb tiny villages in Darfur in order to stop "terrorist attacks...

If you put the two cases side by side, they are almost mirror images of each other in terms of tactics, government rhetoric, and proportionality of retaliation.IMO the differences are only superficial. It stains credulity to suggest that suicide and bomb attacks in Israel are purely notional, and not in essence terroristic. In Sudan this may be the case, I do not know.

shastafarian's equivalence of Gaza and Georgia made more sense to me. Israel obviously had a contingency plan (i.e., a plan for war in hand) for missile attacks against southern Israel; similarly, the Russians were prepared to act with alacrity when Saakashvili overreached last year.

As to whether Israel's recent actions are proportionate to the threat against them, being utterly ignorant of just war theory and life in Israel, I'll just be arbitrary and say no. Political and geostrategic motives seem to be at play. Israel's rolled the dice on war with Hamas right now, and of course the ends justify the means. That's the kind of realpolitik that's fashionable in the region. Preventive war.

Winehole23

01-05-2009, 02:20 PM

Israeli hawks said that if they pulled out of Gaza, it would just give Hamas and friends a stronghold to attack Israel. The hawks were proven correct.Don't Fatah militias operate in Gaza, too? The context of the present invasion is the ongoing quasi civil war between Gaza and the West Bank, that followed closely on the US backed elections propelling Hamas to power.

Assuming this is not the beginning of a wider regional outbreak, what do you think ES? Will democracy get a do-over in Gaza?

Winehole23

01-05-2009, 02:38 PM

When the Palestinians voted for Hamas, they voted for war.Perhaps Palestinians believed their choice would be honored, and their government recognized.

Cry Havoc

01-05-2009, 03:01 PM

How anyone be vouching for Hamas (and Palestine in general) in this situation is just flooring.

To refer back to the fist-fight analogy, Hamas is a 100 pound, 5' 7th grader walking up to Brock Lesner and repeatedly punching him. When that doesn't work, the kid takes out any blunt instrument possible and starts swinging away.

How about a WORLDWIDE condemnation of Hamas? How about a completely international effort to move into Palestine and remove the terrorists running the government?

Give the people of Palestine two options: Turn in the leaders with the RPGs that are causing you to be bombed and live in the 3rd world, or live with it.

The public of Israel doesn't hate Palestine. They don't want the people eradicated. Sadly, the reverse is not true. If Palestine (Hamas) laid down their arms today, Israel would lay them down tomorrow. If Israel laid down their arms today, they would be attacked into extinction. A sadly high number of people in Palestine, whether through ignorant hate or brainwashing, want the Jew scoured from the Earth.

I think it would be interesting if anyone would stop to consider what it's like to be a Jew today. Just 1.5 generations ago, 6,000,000 of their people were killed in one of the most brutal genocides in human history. Now they're getting rockets thrown at them, and you're expecting them to ignore it on the grounds of, "Well we have superior tech, so we'll be ok."?

The amazing thing is that a lot of Israeli citizens ARE peaceful. They don't want war. They just want to be left alone. After the past century they had, I can't help but sympathize with them.

I'm just not sure I would be as patient as they are. Bearing in mind that WWII wasn't that long ago, I think it's surprising we don't have thousands of Israeli's clogging the streets calling for the decimation of the aggressor. That they don't is a tribute to their people.

Winehole23

01-05-2009, 03:26 PM

How anyone be vouching for Hamas (and Palestine in general) in this situation is just flooring.Who vouched for Hamas? I was referring to the PA election. The US may not have vouched for Hamas, but it did insist on the inclusion of Hamas on the ballot over Israel's objections.

How about a WORLDWIDE condemnation of Hamas? How about a completely international effort to move into Palestine and remove the terrorists running the government?Isn't it enough already that Israel has rolled up it's sleeves and rolled into Gaza? Besides, the foreign perspective might vitiate expedience and tactical daring...

Give the people of Palestine two options: Turn in the leaders with the RPGs that are causing you to be bombed and live in the 3rd world, or live with it.Hand over your government and your arms. Surrender.

But to whom? To Israel? To Fatah? To some outraged international ragbag of humanity? To whom shall the sword be tendered, CH?

I think it would be interesting if anyone would stop to consider what it's like to be a Jew today. Just 1.5 generations ago, 6,000,000 of their people were killed in one of the most brutal genocides in human history. Now they're getting rockets thrown at them, and you're expecting them to ignore it on the grounds of, "Well we have superior tech, so we'll be ok."?To whom is this point addressed, please?

The amazing thing is that a lot of Israeli citizens ARE peaceful. They don't want war. They just want to be left alone. After the past century they had, I can't help but sympathize with them.Agree 100%.

I'm just not sure I would be as patient as they are. Bearing in mind that WWII wasn't that long ago, I think it's surprising we don't have thousands of Israeli's clogging the streets calling for the decimation of the aggressor. That they don't is a tribute to their people.Yeah, it pretty much is. I strongly agree. But there are a few extremists out there with exotic demographic conclusions. You take the light with the dark...

MannyIsGod

01-05-2009, 04:24 PM

DarrinS

01-05-2009, 04:39 PM

Cry Havoc

01-05-2009, 04:42 PM

Its ridiculous when people try to simplify the situation in the manner you just did CH. In fact the main root of this continuing problem is the continual oversimplification combined with the ego of world leaders who believe they're going to solve this problem overnight and with roadmaps and simple plans.

I agree. I wasn't attempting to simplify anything. But a viable solution would be pages long and take forever to type. My main point is that more international response is needed if anything is going to change. There is no solution short of a massive peace effort. Unless world leaders are willing to make that move, they CANNOT criticize Israel for defending itself and simultaneously ignore the position they put both Israel and Palestine into.

Winehole23

01-05-2009, 05:10 PM

There is no solution short of a massive peace effort. Unless world leaders are willing to make that move, they CANNOT criticize Israel for defending itself and simultaneously ignore the position they put both Israel and Palestine into.And of what does this peace effort consist of?

An international war against Hamas?

Also, I noticed the passive construction " the position they put both Israel and Palestine into.' This suggests both are passive victims, when in fact both are aggressors. The suggestion is mischievous, IMO, but there is some history behind it.

To some degree, European and Asiatic Jewry were foisted on the land that is now and biblicly was Israel, with distressing results for everyone.

DarrinS

01-05-2009, 05:11 PM

I agree. I wasn't attempting to simplify anything. But a viable solution would be pages long and take forever to type. My main point is that more international response is needed if anything is going to change. There is no solution short of a massive peace effort. Unless world leaders are willing to make that move, they CANNOT criticize Israel for defending itself and simultaneously ignore the position they put both Israel and Palestine into.

There will NEVER be peace if one side doesn't want peace.

temujin

01-05-2009, 05:34 PM

So should we consult China every time we attack sovereign nations?

If the US had consulted China -or the rest of the world,excpet their "friends" in jerusalem- last time they attacked a overeign nation, the answer would have been a wise, smart, resounding NO.

The US didn't and that clear NO came down the stretch when it was time to renew loans to two notoriously indebted Real Estate Companies.

A financial "readjustment" ensued.

So go ahead and listen to what the "martyrs" in jerusalem order you to do.

temujin

01-05-2009, 05:35 PM

There will NEVER be peace if one side doesn't want peace.

Who ain't got nothing, ain't got nothing to lose.

hater

01-05-2009, 06:47 PM

I might be wrong but... this is the rockets that been firing to Israel???? :lol

http://www.science.co.il/Arab-Israeli-conflict/images/Rocket-Launcher-Gaza-20040511.jpg

IMO, an israeli has more chance of being hit by lighting than one of these rockets.

Any fool could pick up one of those and fire. But will they hit anything? I doubt it. Now, these Hamas tools are a bunch, but I don't see why they have to punish thousands of Palestinian women and children for these toy so called "rockets".

are Israelis living in fear? fuck yeah, but motherfuckin newsflash: "You fucking live in Israel, what did you expect???"

I see other hidden reasons for these war, for example elections coming up. But these "rockets" are a fuckin joke

Backdoorman

01-05-2009, 07:16 PM

I might be wrong but... this is the rockets that been firing to Israel???? :lol

No .
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/weapons/palestine/qassam-launch.jpg

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/weapons/q0279.shtml

Do you think its still just a "harmless" toy rocket? :bang

Gerryatrics

01-05-2009, 07:23 PM

I might be wrong but... this is the rockets that been firing to Israel???? :lol

http://www.science.co.il/Arab-Israeli-conflict/images/Rocket-Launcher-Gaza-20040511.jpg

:bang :bang :bang

http://drinksoakedtrotsforwar.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/qassam.jpg

http://www.weaponsurvey.com/graphics/quds3.gif

nPvHMjxK_9k

9juGmjFlUNw

hater

01-05-2009, 07:31 PM

No .
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/weapons/palestine/qassam-launch.jpg

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/weapons/q0279.shtml

Do you think its still just a "harmless" toy rocket? :bang

well they still look like toy rockets.

xrayzebra

01-05-2009, 07:36 PM

Shastafarian

01-05-2009, 07:51 PM

If the US had consulted China -or the rest of the world,excpet their "friends" in jerusalem- last time they attacked a overeign nation, the answer would have been a wise, smart, resounding NO.

The US didn't and that clear NO came down the stretch when it was time to renew loans to two notoriously indebted Real Estate Companies.

A financial "readjustment" ensued.*sigh* I see you totally missed the point.

So go ahead and listen to what the "martyrs" in jerusalem order you to do.
Ok. I'll do just that because you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

hater

01-05-2009, 09:15 PM

You are a damn joke.

says the clown of the political forum

sook

01-06-2009, 05:18 AM

m33p0

01-06-2009, 06:03 AM

israel don't care who they kill. israel doesn't want peace. this is a group of people that killed its own prime minister because he talked about peace.

temujin

01-06-2009, 07:09 AM

Don't argue with them. These people love israel more than they love america. Why we donate billions of dollars a year and our latest military equipment to them is a fucking joke.

If anyone hasn't caught on by now this is just one part of the many systematic slaughterings the Israelis have carried out to rid the world of palest.

For what a couple of Hamaas operatives do shouldn't be burdened on the entire people. This is going to be one hell of a humanitarian crisis. The dead and the injured are piling up to a level the country cannot sustain.

The US is donating Millions of dollars to a rich countries such as Haiti, Liberia and Guatemala.
Why shouldn't donate Billions to poor Israel?

temujin

01-06-2009, 07:10 AM

israel don't care who they kill. israel doesn't want peace. this is a group of people that killed its own prime minister because he talked about peace.

Nah, that was Hamas, too.

Extra Stout

01-06-2009, 08:09 AM

You're right, Israel pulled out of settlements in Gaza, I was thinking of the settlements they still have in West Bank.

You wrong, however, if you think there is nothing Israel can do to stop future violence. Since the Israelis left in 2005 they have been halting the distribution of international aid in Gaza, they have instituted the much debated blockade of Gaza that has cut off the limited economy that remained there, and they have supplied Fatah with weapons and instigated a civil war.

Israeli politicians use the most extreme wing of Hamas as a propaganda tool to avoid meaningful dialog. It's a stalling tactic that Israel uses to delay the institution of the two state system.

If Israel would make an actual commitment to improving the conditions in Gaza and negotiating with Hamas, the situation could get better there. There is also a UN peacekeeping resolution for the Palestinian territories which the Israeli state has refused to allow to operate.

The violence will continue until both sides are strong enough to let the extremists that would seek to derail the peace process win. Over responding to Hamas is exactly what the extremists wanted, and Israeli politicians are playing right into their hands. For what? Political posturing before the elections?
Negotiating with Hamas is absurd. Why are their words never taken at face value? For their entire existence, they have never wavered from their commitment to return all of historical Palestine to Muslim control. What is there to negotiate about? The ground rules for the Jewish millet among those who weren't killed in future one-state Palestine?

If Israel were to relax their blockade, they would be rewarded with heavier bombardment of their southern cities and more deaths.

Sorry, but I think the two-state solution is wishful thinking. I do not know what else has to happen for it to be clear that the extremist groups have an unshakable will to attack Israel, and are constrained largely by Israeli repression. Maybe at some future point when the Hamases of the region are exhausted and lose their will to fight, there can be peace, but not until then.

Israel's first responsibility is to protect its own citizens. If it were to prioritize the chase of an imaginary, unattainable peace with implacable enemies and sacrifice its own civilians to do so, then I would call for the dismantling of the state because it would have foreclosed on its reason for existence.

I simply do not see your position as coherent. The Israeli state cannot exist with any level of security for its citizens unless the Palestinians are repressed, because the Palestinian extremists are too numerous and implacable, and their motivations at the root are religious and irredentist in nature, rather than socioeconomic. Maybe if you were to conclude therefore that the Israeli state should not continue to exist if that's what it takes, and that the Jewish population should be removed to prevent its massacre, at least your position might make sense.

RandomGuy

01-06-2009, 09:33 AM

How about a WORLDWIDE condemnation of Hamas? How about a completely international effort to move into Palestine and remove the terrorists running the government?

That is not the way perception works. Welcome to reality, here is a quick primer:

People tend to root for the little guy, and in this case Hamas is obviously the little guy with rifles and RPGs versus tanks, jets, and helicopters.

Israel, whether justified or not, is seen as having a responsibility to limit civilian casualties. Such casualties are completely unavoidable in this situation, but this expectation is there.

This means that any civilian casualties become PR fodder for Hamas, who has a willing PR partner in the ONLY news organization that has reporters inside Gaza, Al Jazeera. There might be one civilian casualty for every 10 or 20 armed combatants, but care to guess whose blood will be splattered on TV screens?

Is this fair? No, not really. Israel does have some legitimate security interest here.

I see this as actually yet another mistake on the part of the Israelis. It is not only uniting Palestinians behind Hamas for specific cultural reasons that most Westerners aren't aware of, it is turning world opinion against them.

RandomGuy

01-06-2009, 09:38 AM

The Israeli state cannot exist with any level of security for its citizens unless the Palestinians are repressed, because the Palestinian extremists are too numerous and implacable, and their motivations at the root are religious and irredentist in nature, rather than socioeconomic. Maybe if you were to conclude therefore that the Israeli state should not continue to exist if that's what it takes, and that the Jewish population should be removed to prevent its massacre, at least your position might make sense.

Unfortunately, I am begining to believe this is true.

This is about as untractable as it gets.

I am beginning to think that this conflict will continue for decades, if not centuries, until a nuclear exchange makes most of what is presently Israel too radioactive for humans to inhabit.

Israel is simply too militant to accept the only real solution that might actually leave the Israeli state intact, i.e. non-violent resistance. It is simply not in the Israeli DNA.

Shastafarian

01-06-2009, 10:22 AM

Don't argue with them. These people love israel more than they love america. Why we donate billions of dollars a year and our latest military equipment to them is a fucking joke.

If anyone hasn't caught on by now this is just one part of the many systematic slaughterings the Israelis have carried out to rid the world of palest.

For what a couple of Hamaas operatives do shouldn't be burdened on the entire people. This is going to be one hell of a humanitarian crisis. The dead and the injured are piling up to a level the country cannot sustain.

You know what I find to be a joke? That Yasser Arafat was offered pretty much everything he was asking for back in 2000 and turned it down. "[T]he Arab leader who would surrender Jerusalem is not born yet". We give them so much aid because if we didn't, they wouldn't exist.

Rockhound

01-06-2009, 10:31 AM

Israel should conquer every one of those asshole countries and take care of that side of the world.

TDMVPDPOY

01-06-2009, 12:16 PM

israel are a joke

The UN are telling them to stop, they wont.

If Hamas gets backup and could put up a decent fight expect Israel to come crawling to the UN asking for HELP.

nkdlunch

01-06-2009, 01:12 PM

huh?

it's the UN who is a joke, it's been for decades.

Israel is playing with Hamas like a cat with a mouse. Have you ever seen a mouse put a decent fight? :lol

DarrinS

01-06-2009, 01:35 PM

Given the history of that region over the past 40 years, I think Israel shows remarkable restraint.

If they really wanted to, they could turn Gaza into a piece of scorched Earth.

nkdlunch

01-06-2009, 01:41 PM

sook

01-06-2009, 01:49 PM

DarrinS

01-06-2009, 01:53 PM

smeagol

01-06-2009, 02:00 PM

israel are a joke

The UN are telling them to stop, they wont.

Didn't the whole world tell the US not go into Iraq?

How did that turned out?

nkdlunch

01-06-2009, 02:38 PM

What is it you think Israel should do?

- wait for the Obama govmt to establish and setup their policy on this issue
- stop the BS that they are actually doing this to help the Palestinian ppl
- stop the BULLSHITTIN, about searching for a "permanent" solution to the conflict. There is no such thing
- maybe without all the BS and politics things might improve a little for both
- only thing that would improve this is communication without BS and politics involved, which is pretty much impossible
- this issue has no solution. They will be posting threads about this shit in 2029, if the world is lucky enough to still exist. which I doubt too.

Winehole23

01-06-2009, 02:55 PM

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1053122.html

DarrinS

01-06-2009, 02:57 PM

- wait for the Obama govmt to establish and setup their policy on this issue
- stop the BS that they are actually doing this to help the Palestinian ppl
- stop the BULLSHITTIN, about searching for a "permanent" solution to the conflict. There is no such thing
- maybe without all the BS and politics things might improve a little for both
- only thing that would improve this is communication without BS and politics involved, which is pretty much impossible
- this issue has no solution. They will be posting threads about this shit in 2029, if the world is lucky enough to still exist. which I doubt too.

Wow, those are some great ideas.

Cry Havoc

01-06-2009, 03:42 PM

"if they really wanted to" that is null, it's like saying "if US really wanted to they would nuke Iran". truth is they can't

and "showing restraint", since when not commiting genocide is "showing remarkable restraint"?

This is not a comparable analogy. Iran is thousands of miles from the U.S. and there is absolutely no possibility for us to be attacked. If Iran WERE lobbing missiles into the Eastern U.S., would you want us to wait for "U.N. approval" before reciprocating? Israel IS showing restraint because their own civilians have been killed and many more wounded by a neighboring country. They could do much worse and feel justified.

- wait for the Obama govmt to establish and setup their policy on this issue
- stop the BS that they are actually doing this to help the Palestinian ppl
- stop the BULLSHITTIN, about searching for a "permanent" solution to the conflict. There is no such thing
- maybe without all the BS and politics things might improve a little for both
- only thing that would improve this is communication without BS and politics involved, which is pretty much impossible
- this issue has no solution. They will be posting threads about this shit in 2029, if the world is lucky enough to still exist. which I doubt too.

If you admit there is no solution, how can you possibly blame Israel? They could completely stop attacking Hamas, and it would not make one bit of difference in the number of missiles launched against them. They are doing what they feel is necessary to protect their citizens against a people that want to eradicate them from the planet by any means necessary. They could absolutely annihilate this force at any time, and yet they choose not to. If the roles were reversed today, Israel would cease to exist tomorrow.

DarkReign

01-06-2009, 03:58 PM

I say "Fuck the entire region and everyone in it."

They want to play war, let them play war. Hamas wants to rattle sabres, Israel wants to get its gun on, I am all for it.

May the best man win.

Heath Ledger

01-06-2009, 04:37 PM

lol at all the same people who were barking at russia for the georgia issue apologize for israel.

One Israeli minister was quoted saying the Israel fears in palestine as does Russia in Luxembourg.

But its ok for Israel to use Gaza as target practice...

Moronic statement of the day. If I recall Gerogia wasn't lobbing rockets daily into Russia. Russia did it because it wanted and because it could. Nothing more. The Jews want peace more than anything else but Hamas and its sympathizers like you have other ideas.

Winehole23

01-06-2009, 04:56 PM

Moronic statement of the day. If I recall Georgia wasn't lobbing rockets daily into Russia. Russia did it because it wanted and because it could. Nothing more. .The EU consensus was that Georgia provoked Russia with its unprovoked and indiscriminate shelling (http://euobserver.com/9/26659) of Tshkinvali.

European capitals don't want to talk about who started the war, turning attention to the aid effort and saying Russia has failed to adhere to the six-point ceasefire plan it agreed with France and Georgia.

"Who started the conflict is not an easy question with an easy answer," the spokesperson for the German mission to the EU, Ricklef Beutin, said. "It's up for historians to decide," the spokesperson for the Dutch Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Rob Dekker, indicated. Spain "cannot take a concrete position" on the matter, a Spanish diplomat added.

But one EU diplomat privately blamed Georgia for the mess.

"Of course it was Georgia that started it, and the dialogue we have with Georgia will have to include this," the contact said, explaining that the EU is keeping silent on the matter so as not to diffuse its message on Russia's subsequent actions.

"We need to send a very strong message to Russia that what they did is not OK. On that, we're all very unified. That's got to be the focus.

DarrinS

01-06-2009, 05:10 PM

They are doing what they feel is necessary to protect their citizens against a people that want to eradicate them from the planet by any means necessary. They could absolutely annihilate this force at any time, and yet they choose not to. If the roles were reversed today, Israel would cease to exist tomorrow.

quite true

nkdlunch

01-06-2009, 05:41 PM

If you admit there is no solution, how can you possibly blame Israel?

I do not blame Israel. I just think it's unfair that for 1 innocent Israeli death, there are tens of dozens innocent Palestinian dead. And then Israeli goverment saying they are doing this to "help Palestinian ppl too" and the timing of this right before Israeli elections is perfect :rolleyes

If the roles were reversed today, Israel would cease to exist tomorrow.

Depends on the situation. beleive me if israel govmt(not ppl, because it's goverments who do mass murders) could, they would wipe out Palestine. But they can't, and how go down in history next to Hitler? think about it

Cry Havoc

01-06-2009, 06:01 PM

I do not blame Israel. I just think it's unfair that for 1 innocent Israeli death, there are tens of dozens innocent Palestinian dead. And then Israeli goverment saying they are doing this to "help Palestinian ppl too" and the timing of this right before Israeli elections is perfect :rolleyes

What SHOULD they do? It's not like Israel asked Hamas to attack. Unless you have a more inventive idea for response to unprovoked violence against a county's own citizens, I think you should perhaps give a better idea of what's "acceptable" retaliation. Should Israel say, "Ok, well for every civilian you kill of ours, we kill one of yours?" That would only encourage Hamas.

Also, a huge proportion of Israelis who just want to live in peace, so your assertion that this is solely for election votes is without merit unless you can back it with facts. I don't see a problem with making a statement that you will do whatever it takes to defend your own people, if that's what you're asserting.

Depends on the situation. beleive me if israel govmt(not ppl, because it's goverments who do mass murders) could, they would wipe out Palestine. But they can't, and how go down in history next to Hitler? think about it

Now you're simplifying things. You can't honestly say that unless you have a way to back it up. I think if Palestine left Israel alone, they would be left alone. I would seriously hesitate to accuse someone of having the desire for mass genocide without something verifiable. You make a lot of assertions, and in particular the last one is gravely serious, one I wholeheartedly do not agree with.

Cant_Be_Faded

01-07-2009, 12:52 AM

I read somewhere on the 'net that it's false to say Hamas caused this episode of violence. Yes they have been lobbing rockets into Israel, but supposedly Israel never truly honored the cease fire to begin with. They set up a special security zone within Gaza that violated alot of human's rights, and have been retaliating with force all along.

Not sure if its true, anyone heard anything about this? Too tired to do some hardcore info diggin, but I'm curious.

sook

01-07-2009, 01:03 AM

does anyone even know what Kat. rockets are? They have no true target, you fire 100 of them and maybe 3 will actually hit something. Compare that to f-16 bombing and its laughable...

Cry Havoc

01-07-2009, 02:10 AM

TDMVPDPOY

01-07-2009, 02:48 AM

so whats the point of havin ground troops if they are not investigating b4 launching a missile into a building? UN school couldve been avoided.

sook

01-07-2009, 04:47 AM

Moronic statement of the day. If I recall Gerogia wasn't lobbing rockets daily into Russia. Russia did it because it wanted and because it could. Nothing more. The Jews want peace more than anything else but Hamas and its sympathizers like you have other ideas.

your a brainwashed fucking idiot. Get your shit straight, i won't bother looking it up but the guy ^^ already proved you wrong.

sook

01-07-2009, 04:47 AM

so whats the point of havin ground troops if they are not investigating b4 launching a missile into a building? UN school couldve been avoided.

The U.N gave israel that land and they won't even listen to them.

sook

01-07-2009, 04:50 AM

So in that case, you wouldn't mind me lauching 100 kat rockets at your house? I mean, that's laughable, right?

you "Can't" launch them at a house you moron. You point them straight up and fire, thats what i mean by you can't target anything. If Hamaas gets lucky one might fall in the city and god forbid the shrapnel will injure/kill 1-2 people. That's why using F-16s is laughable, they are using largescale weapons to target a small place with a high population density. It won't matter if they target Hamaas, they will be killing civilians left and right. The place is in such poverty that they hospitals couldn't sustain the injured before this war, the state it must be in now you couldn't even imagine.

But hey, whats a couple of hundred dead palestenians anyways? Most never cared before so why should anyone expect them to care now?

TDMVPDPOY

01-07-2009, 05:35 AM

i wonder why the surrounding arab countries arent doing crap to help palestine, they should do something to israel to put them into their place....instead of sitting and watching...

sook

01-07-2009, 05:46 AM

i wonder why the surrounding arab countries arent doing crap to help palestine, they should do something to israel to put them into their place....instead of sitting and watching...

first of all, they can't. Israel got all its mil. tech from us, including atomic bombs. The last time they fought Israel they were too backward and lost. No arab country has an atomic bomb to even pose as a threat to Israel.

Wild Cobra

01-07-2009, 06:07 AM

israel are a joke

The UN are telling them to stop, they wont.

If Hamas gets backup and could put up a decent fight expect Israel to come crawling to the UN asking for HELP.

The UN is a joke, and everyone who doesn't support Israel is either ignorant, pathetic, or a radical Muslim.

sook

01-07-2009, 06:14 AM

The UN is a joke, and everyone who doesn't support Israel is either ignorant, pathetic, or a radical Muslim.

You're right, give me some fine reasons to support israel. All you right wing extremists are pathetic. Your ideology is no different than the Islamic Radicals you hate, neither of you care for the loss of civilian lives. If Hamas were to blow up a UN-run school in Israel because it saw IDF members in there, what would public opinion be then?

Israel does it to 3 UN-run schools where people are taking refuge, and no independent sources can verify a justification.

Gerryatrics

01-07-2009, 06:22 AM

does anyone even know what Kat. rockets are? They have no true target, you fire 100 of them and maybe 3 will actually hit something. Compare that to f-16 bombing and its laughable...

you "Can't" launch them at a house you moron. You point them straight up and fire, thats what i mean by you can't target anything. If Hamaas gets lucky one might fall in the city and god forbid the shrapnel will injure/kill 1-2 people. That's why using F-16s is laughable, they are using largescale weapons to target a small place with a high population density. It won't matter if they target Hamaas, they will be killing civilians left and right. The place is in such poverty that they hospitals couldn't sustain the injured before this war, the state it must be in now you couldn't even imagine.

But hey, whats a couple of hundred dead palestenians anyways? Most never cared before so why should anyone expect them to care now?

So indiscriminately firing explosives into urban areas in an attempt to cause mass civilian causalities somehow gives you the moral high ground over targeted military strikes on military targets that Hamas chose to place in residential areas? That almost makes as much sense as the idea of "disproportionate response."

Of course, let's just wipe our minds of the little fact that Israel wouldn't be bombing Gaza if it weren't for the rockets they keep firing at Israeli cities and the weapons they keep smuggling in.

I do care about the actual innocent Palestinian civilians that have been killed or wounded. But many, if not most of the dead are Hamas; why should I shed any tears for them? After all, they wanted to be martyrs... they got their wish.

Gerryatrics

01-07-2009, 06:31 AM

i wonder why the surrounding arab countries arent doing crap to help palestine, they should do something to israel to put them into their place....instead of sitting and watching...

It's not an entirely Arab country, but Egypt has been involved...

Egyptians open fire on Palestinians
Dec 28, 2008

Egyptian border guards have opened fire on Palestinians who breached the border to escape Israel's assault on Hamas in the Gaza Strip.

An Egyptian security official said there were at least five breaches along the nine-mile border and hundreds of Palestinian residents were pouring in.

At least 300 Egyptian border guards have been rushed to the area to reseal the border, the official added on condition on anonymity because he was not authorised to speak to the press.

A resident of the Gaza Strip side of the border, Fida Kishta, said that Egyptian border guards opened fire to drive back the Palestinians.

Residents have also commandeered a bulldozer to open new breaches.

Palestinians reported several people were wounded by the gunfire.

Israeli aircraft earlier bombed the border area in an apparent attempt to destroy cross border tunnels used to smuggle weapons and contraband into the Gaza Strip.

Dr Abdel Qader Higazi, a representative of the Egyptian Doctor's Syndicate in Rafah said Egyptian authorities closed the border crossing after allowing several trucks of medical supplies into Gaza.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5grmpk18UVAYzqu4fu2F0eNh8QIgA

Egyptian guard killed by Hamas on Gaza border: TV
Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:03pm EST

RAFAH, Egypt (Reuters) - The security forces of the Palestinian Islamic movement Hamas shot dead an Egyptian border guard on Sunday in turmoil triggered by Israel's assault on Gaza, Egyptian state television said.

An Egyptian security source said Hamas forces had also shot an Egyptian policeman in the leg.

The incidents took place near the main border crossing between Egypt and Gaza, where Egyptian riot police fired in the air to try to drive back Palestinians who had managed to penetrate the border wall.

The events are likely to aggravate tense relations between Hamas and the Egyptian government, which says that Hamas is largely to blame for the Israeli onslaught. Israeli air strikes have killed around 300 people in Gaza in two days.

During the confusion of the assault, dozens of Palestinians crossed into Egypt from Gaza as Egyptian riot police fired in the air, witnesses said.

Reuters correspondent Yusri Mohamed said he had met several Palestinians on the Egyptian side of the border who told him they had slipped across at holes in the border wall.

It was not immediately clear how the holes appeared in the wall but the exodus began within an hour of Israeli air raids aimed at tunnels along the Egyptian border.

An Egyptian security official said later that the authorities had detained about 40 Palestinians who had entered Egypt without going through the usual formalities.

Bursts of gunfire were audible by telephone from Rafah as the Egyptian police tried to frighten the Palestinians off. Gaza hospitals said they were treating 10 people wounded by Egyptian police shooting at Rafah.

Egypt has been cooperating with Israel for months in the blockade of Gaza, severely restricting the flow of goods and people across the Rafah crossing, Gaza's only access point that is not under direct Israeli control.

Egypt reopened the main crossing point on Sunday to let out some of the Palestinians injured in the Israeli attacks.

In January, tens of thousands of Palestinians crossed the border into Egypt after Hamas blasted holes in the wall. It took the Egyptian authorities days to persuade them to leave.

(Reporting by Yusri Mohamed; Additional reporting by Nidal al-Mughrabi in Gaza; Writing by Jonathan Wright; Editing by Kevin Liffey)
http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE4BR24Y20081228

temujin

01-07-2009, 09:01 AM

I do care about the actual innocent Palestinian civilians that have been killed or wounded. But many, if not most of the dead are Hamas; why should I shed any tears for them? After all, they wanted to be martyrs... they got their wish.

Evidence for that?

RandomGuy

01-07-2009, 10:19 AM

The UN is a joke, and everyone who doesn't support Israel is either ignorant, pathetic, or a radical Muslim.

:rolleyes

Either/or, black/white, support/condemn, ignorant/educated.

It must be very comforting to have such a child-like, simplistic worldview. Although I can see the emotional appeal, ultimately such bianary thinking is worse than useless, it is counterproductive.

If you are incapable of understanding nuances or intermediate possibilities, please leave the foreign policy to the grown-ups who can. We can't afford your inability to grasp important concepts.

smeagol

01-07-2009, 10:27 AM

So sook, what is the solution to the problem?

Winehole23

01-07-2009, 10:58 AM

We can't afford your inability to grasp important concepts.Actually, it's offered for free.

Josepatches_

01-07-2009, 11:10 AM

So sook, what is the solution to the problem?

I don't know but war isn't the solution.War only create more hate in both sides.The first step is to stop the attacks.

DarrinS

01-07-2009, 01:16 PM

So indiscriminately firing explosives into urban areas in an attempt to cause mass civilian causalities somehow gives you the moral high ground over targeted military strikes on military targets that Hamas chose to place in residential areas? That almost makes as much sense as the idea of "disproportionate response."

Of course, let's just wipe our minds of the little fact that Israel wouldn't be bombing Gaza if it weren't for the rockets they keep firing at Israeli cities and the weapons they keep smuggling in.

I do care about the actual innocent Palestinian civilians that have been killed or wounded. But many, if not most of the dead are Hamas; why should I shed any tears for them? After all, they wanted to be martyrs... they got their wish.

I agree with you 100%.

I don't get all the sympathy for Hamas and Hamas "enablers" on this board.

You don't hear anyone condemning Hamas for their indiscriminate rockets attacks. You don't hear anyone condemning people that raise their children to be suicide bombers. I don't get it.

And I love the logic about it not being a "fair" fight because Israel has modern weapons and Hamas only has "toy bottle rockets". WTF? It's like if I were to break into Ted Nugent's house with a 22 and people should feel sorry for me because Ted has automatic weapons. You break into my house with a stick and try to hurt my family and I'm unloading a Louisville Slugger or Big Bertha driver on your ass.

Cry Havoc

01-07-2009, 01:33 PM

you "Can't" launch them at a house you moron. You point them straight up and fire, thats what i mean by you can't target anything. If Hamaas gets lucky one might fall in the city and god forbid the shrapnel will injure/kill 1-2 people. That's why using F-16s is laughable, they are using largescale weapons to target a small place with a high population density. It won't matter if they target Hamaas, they will be killing civilians left and right. The place is in such poverty that they hospitals couldn't sustain the injured before this war, the state it must be in now you couldn't even imagine.

But hey, whats a couple of hundred dead palestenians anyways? Most never cared before so why should anyone expect them to care now?

I have to hand it to you. You completely caught me. I'm a huge right wing nut who loves war. I mean, who doesn't like watching things go boom?? I think every Palestinian should be subject to routine biological warfare. I mean, I would prefer torture or just a nuke, but since that's apparently difficult to do, so I'll have to settle for the F-16. That sucks, but as long as there are dead people at the end of the day, I'll be watching with :corn:!

Thank you for being so observant as to realizing my fetish for burned flesh and human misery and then informing the forum here as such. It saved me a lot of time.

DarrinS

01-07-2009, 01:45 PM

Wow, this future jihadist looks really happy.

http://children.foreignpolicyblogs.com/files/2007/05/pal-child-abuse-14.jpg

temujin

01-07-2009, 01:45 PM

So sook, what is the solution to the problem?

I get you the solution.

Starve them financially.

Both sides.

It's incredible how humble one can become when you cut the money.

Of course that is absolutely impossible.
At least from one side.

Shastafarian

01-07-2009, 01:47 PM

They must have been pretty lucky to hit a school.

http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v647/4/28/676231653/n676231653_1925631_7553.jpg

Why wasn't this reported?

temujin

01-07-2009, 01:48 PM

I agree with you 100%.

I don't get all the sympathy for Hamas and Hamas "enablers" on this board.

You don't hear anyone condemning Hamas for their indiscriminate rockets attacks. You don't hear anyone condemning people that raise their children to be suicide bombers. I don't get it.

And I love the logic about it not being a "fair" fight because Israel has modern weapons and Hamas only has "toy bottle rockets". WTF? It's like if I were to break into Ted Nugent's house with a 22 and people should feel sorry for me because Ted has automatic weapons. You break into my house with a stick and try to hurt my family and I'm unloading a Louisville Slugger or Big Bertha driver on your ass.

Just thank God every single morning that Isaelis have not decided that the place where you live is their "holy land", whatever that means.

DarrinS

01-07-2009, 01:52 PM

They must have been pretty lucky to hit a school.

http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v647/4/28/676231653/n676231653_1925631_7553.jpg

Why wasn't this reported?

They were trying to hit the local day care, but missed. Evil bastards!

Shastafarian

01-07-2009, 01:52 PM

Just thank God every single morning that Isaelis have not decided that the place where you live is their "holy land", whatever that means.

You know, ignorance is a terrible quality.

smeagol

01-07-2009, 02:09 PM

I don't know but war isn't the solution.War only create more hate in both sides.The first step is to stop the attacks.

Who are you and why are you responding a question meant for sook?

When you say the attacks, you mean the rocket attacks by the Palestinians?

Winehole23

01-07-2009, 02:26 PM

Breaking...Three hour truce (http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSL7593817)?

nkdlunch

01-07-2009, 02:32 PM

I think we all know the Palestinians' reason for the attacks right? It's the oppression put on them by the Israelis. Some of you make it seem like the sole reason for the Palestinian attacks on Israel is because "they hate them and want to see them wiped off". But some are ignoring the fact that the Palestinian people are oppressed in many ways by the powerful Israeli goverment.

Yeah these attacks on Israel are pretty fucking violent but guess what, the Israeli everyday oppression is pretty fucked up too.

this is what I think Israelis are ignoring on purpose. They just say "Palestinians are attacking us" but why do you think? Its not like Israelis treat them like regular human beings out there.

Winehole23

01-07-2009, 02:34 PM

It's already over (http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/200917151851205482.html).

.

DarrinS

01-07-2009, 05:26 PM

I think we all know the Palestinians' reason for the attacks right? It's the oppression put on them by the Israelis.

WRONG.

There are many "oppressed" people in the world that don't launch random rocket attacks into populated areas and don't send their kids into crowded areas with the sole purpose of blowing themselves up and killing as many innocent bystanders as possible.

WTF about jihad don't you get?

temujin

01-07-2009, 05:29 PM

You know, ignorance is a terrible quality.

You probably live out of it.

Gerryatrics

01-07-2009, 07:49 PM

Evidence for that?

Of the 688 Palestinians killed since Dec. 27, some 350 were civilians, among them 130 children, according to Palestinian officials.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090107/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians

Now those are the Palestinian figures. I've read another article that stated that since the ground invasion began, the Palestinians have only been adding civilian casualties to that figure.

At least 10 Hamas and Islamic Jihad gunmen were killed in other Gaza battles early Tuesday, the IDF said, claiming that soldiers had killed close to 150 Hamas gunmen since the ground operation was launched on Saturday.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231167270150&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

From the Israeli side.

U.N. humanitarian chief John Holmes said the death toll was estimated at 320-390 and the number of injured at 1,500-1,900. Between 20 percent and 25 percent of the dead are either women or children, said Karen Abu Zayd, U.N. Relief and Works Agency commissioner.

Hamas says some 200 uniformed members of its security forces have been killed, and the U.N. says at least 60 Palestinian civilians have died.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ioi_0jtO9RjMwPNRoXNCndRPRq3gD95E1N0O1

Finally, some older numbers from the U.N. While it is possible that every person killed in the operation since then has been an innocent civilian, it seems a bit unlikely.

I don't know what the real numbers are, I don't think anyone does. That's why I left my statement open ended. But that's what has been reported so far. Feel free to draw your own conclusions.

Shastafarian

01-07-2009, 08:13 PM

You probably live out of it.

Are you saying I live outside of ignorance? Thanks.

MaNuMaNiAc

01-07-2009, 08:32 PM

Discussing things like this is what the political forum is all about. Having said that, I think its safe to say, that given the quality of the posts in this thread, most people here (myself included) don't have a fucking clue about what is going on there. The saddest part is that a lot of you are unaware of how fucking ignorant we all are in regards to this conflict. Anyone posting anything other than sympathy for those suffering over there is talking straight out of their ass! ...which I might add, is situated safely and comfortably a few thousand miles from where these people are dying.

Nothing against debating, really. I'd just hate to think someone might come in here and be duped into believing anyone in this thread has a fucking clue about what they are talking about.

:lol

Shastafarian

01-07-2009, 08:49 PM

I've been to Israel twice and my brother lives there. I know at least 5 other people who currently live there. I still realize I don't know half of what's going on over there.

Nbadan

01-07-2009, 10:13 PM

So, for the record, Israel broke the truce, and broke it again and again. And Israel kept the population of Gaza on the brink of starvation for 18 months.

To even consider whether or not there is a humanitarian crisis now in Gaza, which Israeli politicians deny, is ludicrous. There has been a humanitarian crisis in Gaza for a year-and-a-half.

The slow reaction of the international community should not come as a surprise, but is nevertheless appalling.

These, one would hope, are the violent death throes of the neocons, under whose iron-fist ideology the world, in particular this part of the world, has suffered dramatically for the past eight years. That the neocons in Washington should choose to lash out through their proxy in Israel is sad and cowardly, but entirely par for the course.

And to all those who accepted Israel’s explanation that for eight years Israelis have lived in terror of rocket attacks, consider this: this terrifying rocket menace, which started in 2001 and was first fired mostly at the illegal settlements and military targets inside Gaza, has killed 18 Israelis. That is, 18 in eight years.

This may certainly be too many. But if that is too many, what is nearly 700 dead in 12 days? What it is not is self-defence, especially in the context of 41 years of illegal, belligerent military occupation?

What is this, if not a war crime on the back of a war crime?

Jordan Times (http://www.jordantimes.com/index.php?news=13324)

Nbadan

01-07-2009, 10:21 PM

cnV33mYIJOM

Shastafarian

01-07-2009, 11:17 PM

I wonder what the Jordanian Times would have Israel do. Let them continue to rocket AND mortar attacks? Hope they don't get more sophisticated arms? Those sound awesome to me.

Cant_Be_Faded

01-08-2009, 12:03 AM

Jordan Times (http://www.jordantimes.com/index.php?news=13324)

Heh. Guess the blog I read was right for a change. Arguably right, anyways.

Israel is a piece of shit but so is Hamas. There is no right and wrong here. All we can hope for is one side to get irreparably crushed, so we can have something like progress.

RandomGuy

01-08-2009, 10:18 AM

temujin

01-08-2009, 12:29 PM

I've been to Israel twice and my brother lives there. I know at least 5 other people who currently live there. I still realize I don't know half of what's going on over there.

Enough said.

You were technically right about my "ignorance": I should have known this from post 3 on.

So, you are not footing the bill, you are actually cashing in.
You are not obeying to orders, you are giving them.

Well done, but play it down: ubris is just around the corner.

nkdlunch

01-08-2009, 01:58 PM

WRONG.

There are many "oppressed" people in the world that don't launch random rocket attacks into populated areas and don't send their kids into crowded areas with the sole purpose of blowing themselves up and killing as many innocent bystanders as possible.

ppl are different around the world. Arabs have been warriors since the ancient times. you get violence when you oppress warring people. Look at the Afghans, same thing, warring ppl. not every ppl in the world are like this.

WTF about jihad don't you get?
jihad? that is adopted by extremists. similar to skinheads adopting beleifs of killing all black ppl

bresilhac

01-08-2009, 02:12 PM

So sook, what is the solution to the problem?

I say that the complete and total eradication of Israel is the only thing that will bring lasting peace to that tortured region. What's the alternative, to continue to have the entire population of Gaza enslaved as they are now in perpetuity? That approach will only foster more and more angry violence and loathing of Israel. But if there were no Israel there would be no problem to begin with. So the beginning of the problem in that region was the stupid, ill-conceived mandate that created that worthless mistake of a nation, Israel. Had the Palestinians not had their land and property stolen from them initially there would now be peace.

MaNuMaNiAc

01-08-2009, 02:29 PM

I say that the complete and total eradication of Israel is the only thing that will bring lasting peace to that tortured region. What's the alternative, to continue to have the entire population of Gaza enslaved as they are now in perpetuity? That approach will only foster more and more angry violence and loathing of Israel. But if there were no Israel there would be no problem to begin with. So the beginning of the problem in that region was the stupid, ill-conceived mandate that created that worthless mistake of a nation, Israel. Had the Palestinians not had their land and property stolen from them initially there would now be peace.

so you would trade one genocide for another? Why don't you take your ignorant racist ass somewhere else

DarrinS

01-08-2009, 02:41 PM

The only thing I can conclude from this thread is that moral equivalence is a mental disorder.

DarrinS

01-08-2009, 02:44 PM

By the way, can anyone give me examples of any country in the Arab world admitting Palestinian refugees?

Shastafarian

01-08-2009, 03:05 PM

so you would trade one genocide for another? Why don't you take your ignorant racist ass somewhere else

I would assume he just means displacing the millions of people who live in Israel. Seems plausible.

Cry Havoc

01-08-2009, 03:16 PM

bresilhac

01-09-2009, 12:08 AM

so you would trade one genocide for another? Why don't you take your ignorant racist ass somewhere else

Yeah sure stupid ass. And the Israelis aren't racist at all right? Go to Hell.

Shastafarian

01-09-2009, 12:10 AM

Yeah sure stupid ass. And the Israelis aren't racist at all right? Go to Hell.

Which Israelis Mr. Generalization?

Winehole23

01-09-2009, 12:42 AM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/08/AR2009010800842.html?wprss=rss_world&sid=ST2009010800048&s_pos=
As U.S. Abstains, U.N. Security Council Calls for Cease-Fire (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/08/AR2009010800842.html?wprss=rss_world&sid=ST2009010800048&s_pos=)

http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/story/image/slideshow_top.gif

By Griff Witte and Colum Lynch (http://projects.washingtonpost.com/staff/email/griff+witte+and+colum+lynch/)

Washington Post Foreign Service
Friday, January 9, 2009; Page A14

JERUSALEM, Jan. 8-- The U.N. Security Council (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/United+Nations+Security+Council?tid=informline) on Thursday adopted a resolution calling for a cease-fire in the Gaza Strip, hours after the United Nations (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/United+Nations?tid=informline) announced it would suspend humanitarian aid deliveries in the territory, citing Israeli attacks on its facilities and personnel.

100 Survivors Rescued in Gaza From Ruins Blocked by Israelis (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2009/01/08/ST2009010800048.html)
U.N. Security Council Calls for Cease-Fire; U.S. Abstains (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/08/AR2009010800842.html)
Hamas Pulling Back Into Crowded Cities, Beckoning Israelis (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/07/AR2009010703690.html)
Rocket Attack Threatens Israel's Other Front (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/video/2009/01/08/VI2009010801924.html)
Full Coverage (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/linkset/2008/12/30/LI2008123001266.html)
Backgrounder: CFR Backgrounder: Hamas (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/08/AR2009010801937.html)
Israel Renews Fighting in Gaza Strip (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/gallery/2009/01/05/GA2009010500838.html)
Transcript: Middle East: Israel Halts Operations To Allow Aid Shipments (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2009/01/07/DI2009010701185.html)
Israel's Forces in Gaza (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2009/01/08/GR2009010800432.html)

The 15-nation council adopted the resolution by a vote of 14 to 0. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Condoleezza+Rice?tid=informline) cast the sole abstention but said the United States supports the text and objectives of the resolution.
The resolution demands an "immediate, durable and fully respected cease-fire, leading to the full withdrawal of Israeli forces from Gaza," U.S. and Arab officials said. It marked a sharp reversal by the Bush administration, which had refused to allow passage of a cease-fire resolution without binding assurances that Hamas (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Hamas?tid=informline) would halt its rocket attacks against Israel (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/countries/israel.html?nav=el).

Israeli officials, who vigorously opposed the passage of any U.N. resolution on the crisis, privately expressed reservations about the current text on the grounds that it failed to include a firm guarantee that Hamas would stop its rocket fire before Israel would have to halt its military operation, according to U.N. diplomats.

Israel's U.N. ambassador, Gabriela Shalev, did not say whether Israel would bring an immediate halt to its Gaza operation. But she said that Hamas bears responsibility for the situation and that any "durable" cease-fire requires "the total cessation of rocket fire and [arms] smuggling."

The resolution expresses "grave concern" over the "deepening humanitarian crisis" in Gaza and calls for more international aid and "unimpeded" distribution of food, fuel, medical treatment and other humanitarian assistance. The text makes no mention of Hamas's practice of launching missiles into Israel. Instead, it "condemns all violence and hostilities directed against civilians and all acts of terrorism."

After the vote, Rice said that the United States had abstained on the resolution because the council refused to allow a delay to permit an Egyptian-led mediation effort to broker a cease-fire. But, she said, "we decided that this resolution -- the text of which we support, the goals of which we support and the objectives of which we fully support -- should indeed be allowed to go forward."

The suspension of U.N. aid deliveries is likely to deepen the crisis in Gaza, where more than half of the territory's 1.5 million people live on food aid and where water, power, medical supplies and cooking gas are already in short supply. It also deepens a bitter standoff between the Israeli government, which continued to bombard Gaza with airstrikes Thursday, and humanitarian groups say Israel has made it impossible to distribute badly needed aid in the beleaguered territory.

"We are perfectly prepared to take responsible risks in this conflict zone," said John Ging, the U.N. Relief and Works Agency (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/United+Nations+Relief+and+Works+Agency+for+Palesti ne+Refugees+in+the+Near+East?tid=informline)'s top official in Gaza. But it is "totally and wholly unacceptable," he said, that Israeli forces are "firing at our workers."

Israel has denied the charge and says Hamas is responsible for obstructing aid.

Other aid organizations, including the International Committee of the Red Cross (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/International+Federation+of+Red+Cross+and+Red+Cres cent+Societies?tid=informline), said Thursday its officials would curtail their work in Gaza because of security concerns.

The Palestinian death toll stood at more than 760 Thursday, with more than 3,100 people injured, health officials in Gaza said. The United Nations has said a third or more are civilians.

Three Israeli soldiers were killed in fighting in Gaza on Thursday, bringing the total since the start of the ground operation to nine. Four Israelis have been killed by rockets since the offensive on Gaza began Dec. 27.

The U.N. decision came after a convoy of its vehicles was fired on Thursday by Israeli forces during a mission to recover the body of a U.N. worker who had been killed in a previous Israeli attack, according to UNRWA spokesman Chris Gunness.

The incident occurred during a three-hour period in which Israel said it would pause its offensive to allow humanitarian supplies to be delivered. It followed the death Thursday morning of a U.N. driver who was shot despite Israeli assurances that it was safe to travel.

U.N. Secretary General Ban Ki-moon (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Ban+Ki-moon?tid=informline) condemned the attack on the U.N. convoy and said that "the inability of the U.N. to provide assistance in this worsening humanitarian crisis is unacceptable."

Gunness said that three U.N. workers had been killed by Israeli fire since Dec. 27 and that aid would not resume until "the Israeli army (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Israeli+Defense+Forces?tid=informline) can guarantee the safety and security of U.N. personnel."

Gunness said that the locations of U.N. facilities and the movements of its workers are communicated to the military and that Israel was being reckless or was targeting aid workers. Earlier this week, 45 Palestinians died after Israeli forces fired on two schools the United Nations had opened to people seeking refuge from the fighting. Israel claims the schools were being used by gunmen, but the United Nations denies that.

Israeli military spokesman Ilan Tal, a reserve brigadier general, said that he was looking into the accusations but added that Israel had not targeted aid workers. Tal said Israel had facilitated aid to Gaza by holding its fire for three hours both Wednesday and Thursday.

"Our intention is to allow for any needed humanitarian aid to come in and to coordinate with all the international organizations," he said.
Tal accused Hamas of targeting humanitarian convoys for attack and then blaming Israel. He also said the group is hoarding food and other supplies.

Gaza residents said basic goods were not getting through.
"There is no food. Iwent to the market and all I could find were onions and lemons," said Um Adel Abu Nahil, a resident of the Shati refugee camp who ventured from her home during Thursday's pause. "I can't find milk. I can't find diapers. And we have no water. It's awful."

About 500,000 people in Gaza are believed to be without running water, and the sewage system is on the verge of collapse because of a lack of electricity. Even before the war, Gaza had endured a near-total economic blockade for 18 months, which began after Hamas routed forces loyal to the rival Fatah (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Fatah+Organization?tid=informline) party and seized power in 2007. The previous year, Hamas had won Palestinian legislative elections.

Despite a Supreme Court order, Israel has not allowed international journalists into Gaza since it began its offensive, with the exception of a BBC (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/British+Broadcasting+Corporation?tid=informline) cameraman who was permitted to embed with Israeli troops.

Israel conquered Gaza in a 1967 war with Arab armies, and although it pulled its troops and settlers out in 2005, it remains the occupying power under international law. Sari Bashi of the Israeli human rights group Gisha, said that means Israel is legally responsible for the humanitarian needs of the population.

"The obligation is the Israeli army's. No one else's," she said.

The U.N. decision reflects rising anger and frustration among humanitarian workers in Gaza over the perceived hostility of the Israeli military toward their efforts. The Red Cross on Thursday protested Israel's "unacceptable" delays in letting rescue workers reach three buildings that had been hit by Israeli shelling.

An Israeli mediator was in Egypt (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/countries/egypt.html?nav=el) Thursday, discussing possible cease-fire proposals with Egyptian authorities. Israel said on Wednesday that it was in "fundamental agreement" with a cease-fire plan offered by Egypt and France (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/countries/france.html?nav=el) but that many details still need to be worked out.

In the meantime, Israel's offensive against Hamas continued with more than 40 airstrikes, including an intense bombardment of the southern part of the territory, near the border with Egypt. Hamas and its allies in Gaza fired at least 20 rockets Thursday into southern Israel. Earlier in the campaign, the daily number of rocket attacks was 40 or more.

There was also a brief exchange of fire Thursday morning across Israel's northern border with Lebanon (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/countries/lebanon.html?nav=el). Several rockets were lobbed into Israeli territory, and the Israeli military responded with fire into southern Lebanon.

Although the exchange recalled the 2006 war between Israel and the Lebanon-based Hezbollah (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Hezbollah?tid=informline) movement, Lebanese officials promptly condemned the fire from their side and said they were taking steps to patrol the area more closely. Several Palestinian refugee camps are located in southern Lebanon.

Hezbollah said it was not responsible for the rockets, which landed near the Israeli town of Nahariya.

"We regard this as an isolated event," said Tal, the Israel Defense Forces spokesman.

Also on Thursday, Israel reacted angrily to comments made by an aide to Pope Benedict XVI (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Pope+Benedict+XVI?tid=informline) comparing Gaza to "a big concentration camp." Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor said that Israel was "terribly dismayed" by the comments and that they reflected Hamas propaganda.