Current Superstars?

[DAF86]

Duncan, Bryant, James, Wade, Howard, Garnett, Paul.

Those are mine, who you got? remember: Current superstars, Iverson and O'neal are out of the competition right now.

[resistanze]

LeBron
CP3
TD
Kobe
Wade
Howard
Dirk

[xtremesteven33]

Superstar to me would be an MVP winner/broken records holer/NBA Champion or someone who has proved themselves to be top 3 best in the NBA....

1. Tim Duncan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Lebron James
4. Dwayne Wade
5. Kevin Garnett

[dirk4mvp]

Kevin Garnett and no Dirk :lol

[Brazil]

Kevin Garnett and no Dirk :lol

exactly what i was thinking, dirk>garnett

[DAF86]

Kevin Garnett and no Dirk :lol

Hmmm... yes

[balli]

Kevin Garnett and no Dirk :lol
I know people don't like KG around here (which I wholly don't understand) but Dirk isn't half the player or star that KG is. Maybe in some other dimensional NBA universe predicated on celebrating softness and a lack of defense, Dirk is a superstar, but not here.

[DAF86]

exactly what i was thinking, dirk>garnett

Boston with Dirk instead of Garnett wouldn't have won the championship last year. Don't let your hatred for KG blind you.

[dirk4mvp]

I know people don't like KG around here (which I wholly don't understand) but Dirk isn't half the player or star that KG is. Maybe in some other dimensional NBA universe predicated on celebrating softness and a lack of defense, Dirk is a superstar, but not here.

Dirk's tougher than Garnett is actually. Call me when KG gets a tooth knocked out in a playoff game and comes back to finish it. Or maybe call me when KG sprains his ankle and it's supposed to keep him out for over a month but he comes back in a little over a week to help make a playoff push. In other words, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

So what do think KG's toughness conists of? Picking on guys that are a foot shorter than him? Or the chest thumps? INTENSITY! ENGERGY!

Also, the only people on here who hate him blindly are spurfans because they think he poses some weird threat to Duncan's greatness. Other fanbases hate him because he acts like a faggot.

[dirk4mvp]

Boston with Dirk instead of Garnett wouldn't have won the championship last year. Don't let your hatred for KG blind you.


Boston would've finished it in less than 6 games.

[lil_penny]

Dirks a superstar in deutchsland or where ever the fuck he's from and that's bout it.

[DAF86]

Boston would've finished it in less than 6 games.

What?

[balli]

Dirk's tougher than Garnett is actually.
:lmao Dirk's softer than a marshmallow.

[dirk4mvp]

:lmao Dirk's softer than a marshmallow.


:lmao picking on 6 ft pgs shows real toughness!

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Dirk's tougher than Garnett is actually. Call me when KG gets a tooth knocked out in a playoff game and comes back to finish it. Or maybe call me when KG sprains his ankle and it's supposed to keep him out for over a month but he comes back in a little over a week to help make a playoff push. In other words, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

So what do think KG's toughness conists of? Picking on guys that are a foot shorter than him? Or the chest thumps? INTENSITY! ENGERGY!

I think you're talk about a different kind of tough. Dirk is tough as nails when it comes to staying on the court and playing through injuries, but he is not tough when it comes to boxing out, taking the ball to the rim, and defending an interior player. KG's toughness is overrated but he certainly plays tougher and more physical than Dirk does.

[dirk4mvp]

Paul Pierce is the only superstar on the Celtics. Garnett is a fucking role player.

[resistanze]

Boston with Dirk instead of Garnett wouldn't have won the championship last year. Don't let your hatred for KG blind you.

I agree with this. But it has nothing to do with KG being better than Dirk.

I think CP3 > Garnett but that doesn't mean he's a better fit than KG in Boston.

[Girasuck]

:lmao picking on 6 ft pgs shows real toughness!

You don't have a biased opinion do you?

Dirk is fucking soft. He's one of the softest players in the league.

[dirk4mvp]

You don't have a biased opinion do you?

Dirk is fucking soft. He's one of the softest players in the league.


That's funny coming from a guy who roots for a team full of soft faggots besides Williams.

[DAF86]

That's funny coming from a guy who roots for a team full of soft faggots besides Williams.

What? You don't play for Sloan if you're soft

[balli]

That's funny coming from a guy who roots for a team full of soft faggots besides Williams.

Fuck you bro. I'd like to hear you say that to Harpring's, Millsap's or Brewer's face, cause they'd knock you the fuck out. The only really soft players on the Jazz are Boozer and Collins. i.e. our 2 scrubs.

[dirk4mvp]

What? You don't play for Sloan if you're soft


That's obviously changed.


DKB3ey97vs0

[sonic21]

Boston with Dirk instead of Garnett wouldn't have won the championship last year. Don't let your hatred for KG blind you.

Dallas with garnett instead of Dirk = 1st round exit every year

[DAF86]

That's obviously changed.


DKB3ey97vs0

Lol Dirk got owned! a superstar wouldn't have been call for a foul like that.

[DAF86]

Dallas with garnett instead of Dirk = 1st round exit every year

Yeah, you're right... wait isn't that what has happened lately to the Mavs?

[sonic21]

Yeah, you're right... wait isn't that what has happened lately to the Mavs?

it's what happened to garnett his whole career

[balli]

it's what happened to garnett his whole career

Just so long as you're talking in the past tense. With Dirk, it's an on-going problem.

[sonic21]

Just so long as you're talking in the past tense. With Dirk, it's an on-going problem.

yeah maybe he'll be trade to a team with 2 other HOFers

[Ghazi]

Anyone who thinks Garnett is better than Dirk is going off of perception rather than actually watching the games. Garnett is nothing more than a jump shooter on offense now and doesn't get to the line nearly as much as Dirk nor does his passive offensive game demand as much attention. A better rebounder and defender yes, but overall I'd rather have Dirk. + Dirk is 2 years younger and probably has more good basketball left in him.

Garnett played about as well in the Finals as Dirk did in the '06 Finals. Difference was the refs didn't screw him dirty and Pierce/Allen/Posey made big shots/plays. Garnett was arguably the 3rd best Celtic during the Finals.

[DAF86]

I never expected my inocent "superstars" thread to turn into a Garnettt-Nowitzki discussion.

[balli]

A better rebounder and defender yes,

He's not just a better rebounder and defender, he's an incredibly better rebounder and defender. Not to mention 10x the team leader Dirk is. You're kidding yourself if you think Powe, Perkins and Rondo are even half as good with Dirk instead of KG.


And it has nothing to do with perception. I'm not saying this because KG has a propensity for yelling and looking intense. KG, IS, one of the hardest working players/practice players in the league. And a more vocal leader than anyone else. By far.

[JoeTait75]

The day KG lets Wally Freaking Szczerbiak blow right by him for a dunk, he'll be worse than Dirk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mN8XRYijq4

[DAF86]

The day KG lets Wally Freaking Szczerbiak blow right by him for a dunk, he'll be worse than Dirk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mN8XRYijq4

Wow he didn't even pump fake or something, he just ran to the basket like if there was nobody there.

[balli]

there was nobody there.
What a perfect word for Dirk; A real nobody.

[Medvedenko]

There's really only 2 superstar players now. Kobe and Lebron. When you look globally and their impact, these are the only 2.

[dirk4mvp]

The day KG lets Wally Freaking Szczerbiak blow right by him for a dunk, he'll be worse than Dirk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mN8XRYijq4

That's about as smart as saying LeBron isn't a superstar due to turning the ball over at crucial times and then bitching about it being a crab dribble.

[dirk4mvp]

What a perfect word for Dirk; A real nobody.


That nobody is a better player than anyone currently on the Jazz roster.

[td4mvp21]

I'm not a big fan of Dirk but I give him the advantage over Garnett in terms of toughness and winning mentality (and to clear it up, I'm not saying Dirk is "tough"). KG is definitely more talented overall as a player in terms of what he can do and his versatility and yes, he does play more physical than Dirk downlow, but he's a FUCKING PUSSY. You want to know why his teams didn't win in the playoffs? Because they had no one to give the ball to in the fourth quarter. That's why it took Sam Clutch Cassell to get him to the WCF in 2004 and that's why it took two other superstars to help him get a title last season. At least Dirk made it to the Finals without two other superstars carrying his ass. Garnett is fine and "intense" and "energetic" as long as nothing is on the line. Dirk can sometimes go into that choking puss mode but I've seen him have good fourth quarters in the playoffs as well. Garnett? Uh, no. KG is definitely a better inside player but you won't ever see him attacking the rim in the fourth quarter of a playoff game. You'll see him camping his ass on the perimeter waiting to jack up a jumpshot if one of his other teammates can't get a shot off.

Overall it's a tough comparison because both have the reputation as a choker and being soft. I'll admit I do not like KG one bit but it's not like I like Dirk either. He's on the Spurs' rival team.

[JoeTait75]

That's about as smart as saying LeBron isn't a superstar due to turning the ball over at crucial times and then bitching about it being a crab dribble.

So you're saying defense shouldn't be a determining factor between deciding who is better between KG and Dirk? I'm not saying Dirk is hot garbage or anything, just that he can't match up with KG as a defender, and to me that's the difference.

[balli]

That nobody is a better player than anyone currently on the Jazz roster.
I take Deron over Dirk any day of the week. And given Millsap's salary, him too. And AK's not far behind.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

If you are going to say Wade is a Superstar, then throw Arenas in there as well. A healthy Arenas is just as good Wade.

:lmao



If you throw Garnette in there, then add Dirk as well. Dirk is better at everything than KG is except for defense.

Isn't defense half the game?



If you add Paul, then add Deron.

:lmao again



Right now, Duncan, Kobe, and James are the only SUPERSTARS. Even still, James is NOT on the level of Kobe and Duncan.

James is not on the level of those two as far as career resumes go, but if we're talking about RIGHT NOW James is just as big a superstar as either one and is probably the best player in basketball.

[dirk4mvp]

I take Deron over Dirk any day of the week. And given Millsap's salary, him too. And AK's not far behind.


You're a fucking retard then.

[balli]

A healthy Arenas is just as good Wade.
A healthy Arenas is not near as good as a healthy Wade.

[balli]

You're a fucking retard then.

There's not a GM in this league who would rather have Dirk than Deron. And are you really trying to argue that Millsap for $700,000 isn't a better deal than Dirk at whatever salary he's making?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Offensively, KG is just as soft if not softer than Dirk. They both shoot too many shots where they are fading away. Defensively Dirk is the softer one, just look at KG's first all NBA defense appearances compared to Dirk's.

[dirk4mvp]

I'm not a big fan of Dirk but I give him the advantage over Garnett in terms of toughness and winning mentality (and to clear it up, I'm not saying Dirk is "tough"). KG is definitely more talented overall as a player in terms of what he can do and his versatility and yes, he does play more physical than Dirk downlow, but he's a FUCKING PUSSY. You want to know why his teams didn't win in the playoffs? Because they had no one to give the ball to in the fourth quarter. That's why it took Sam Clutch Cassell to get him to the WCF in 2004 and that's why it took two other superstars to help him get a title last season. At least Dirk made it to the Finals without two other superstars carrying his ass. Garnett is fine and "intense" and "energetic" as long as nothing is on the line. Dirk can sometimes go into that choking puss mode but I've seen him have good fourth quarters in the playoffs as well. Garnett? Uh, no. KG is definitely a better inside player but you won't ever see him attacking the rim in the fourth quarter of a playoff game. You'll see him camping his ass on the perimeter waiting to jack up a jumpshot if one of his other teammates can't get a shot off.

Overall it's a tough comparison because both have the reputation as a choker and being soft. I'll admit I do not like KG one bit but it's not like I like Dirk either. He's on the Spurs' rival team.

Not to mention how Dirk face raped KG in their playoff series.


Also I wonder has KG ever won a game 7 on the floor of his biggest rival?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

There's not a GM in this league who would rather have Dirk than Deron. And are you really trying to argue that Millsap for $700,000 isn't a better deal than Dirk at whatever salary he's making?

I agree with the Williams part but the argument isn't who is a better value for their salary, you can't change the argument in the middle of the argument.

[td4mvp21]

Also I wonder has KG ever won a game 7 on the floor of his biggest rival?

Definitely left that out for a reason, you bitch.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Not to mention how Dirk face raped KG in their playoff series.


Also I wonder has KG ever won a game 7 on the floor of his biggest rival?


Dirk and KG are both equally big playoff chokers. Arguing about whether KG or Dirk is the better playoff player is like arguing about whether getting stabbed in the right arm or left arm is less painful.

[dirk4mvp]

There's not a GM in this league who would rather have Dirk than Deron. And are you really trying to argue that Millsap for $700,000 isn't a better deal than Dirk at whatever salary he's making?

The only reason a gm would take Williams over Dirk is age. Dirk is still the better player though.

[sonic21]

Dirk and KG are both equally big playoff chokers. Arguing about whether KG or Dirk is the better playoff player is like arguing about whether getting stabbed in the right arm or left arm is less painful.

Dirk only choked against the warriors, he had many great series. he didn't choke in the finals, the other mavs did.

[DAF86]

If you are going to say Wade is a Superstar, then throw Arenas in there as well. A healthy Arenas is just as good Wade.

Sorry, I missed the season where Arenas won a ring and was the finals MVP


If you throw Garnette in there, then add Dirk as well. Dirk is better at everything than KG is except for defense.

When did Dirk turn a lottery team into a NBA champion?


If you add Paul, then add Deron.

When Williams starts scoring or assisting in half of his team's baskets I will.

[dirk4mvp]

Dirk and KG are both equally big playoff chokers. Arguing about whether KG or Dirk is the better playoff player is like arguing about whether getting stabbed in the right arm or left arm is less painful.

Maybe if you replaced Dirk with a guy like Nash or somebody, then yeah. But through his career Dirk's been very good in the playoffs.

[Brazil]

What a perfect word for Dirk; A real nobody.

I respect you opinion but come on saying that Dirk is nobody is really stupid.

Saying that KG>Dirk is understandable saying that KG>>>>>>>>>Dirk is a nonsense. Anyway I maintain I'd prefer having Dirk on my team.

[dirk4mvp]

When did Dirk turn a lottery team into a NBA champion?




He did that all by himself? Or did he have 2 other hof'ers on the team?

[DAF86]

He did that all by himself? Or did he have 2 other hof'ers on the team?

He was the main reason, and by a big difference.

[balli]

When Williams starts scoring or assisting in half of his team's baskets I will.
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=290105026
Utah Jazz: FGM= 43

Deron Williams: FGM= 9, ASSISTS=15

15+9= 24

24/43= .558

[balli]

Since when were Ray Allen and Paul Pierce foregone hall of famers?

[DAF86]

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=290105026
Utah Jazz: FGM= 43

Deron Williams: FGM= 9, ASSISTS=15

15+9= 24

24/43= .558

An entire season like that, and he's in.

[dirk4mvp]

Since when were Ray Allen and Paul Pierce foregone hall of famers?

They'll more than likely get in and are much better than what Dirk had when he made his Finals run. You like being stupid don't you?

[balli]

You like being stupid don't you?
I'm sorry, I didn't even say that they didn't belong, I just questioned why it's being treated as a foregone conclusion. Because it's not. I fail to see what's stupid about that?

[lefty]

Ginobili
Duncan
Ginobili
Duncan
Yinka Dare

[lil_penny]

If you are going to say Wade is a Superstar, then throw Arenas in there as well. A healthy Arenas is just as good Wade.

Haahahahahahahahaahahaha!!!!!!!

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Dirk only choked against the warriors, he had many great series. he didn't choke in the finals, the other mavs did.

He choked against the Hornets last year as well. You can make the argument KG's teammates choked various times, but the leader of the team is responsible for putting the team on his back if the other players are struggling. Neither one is able to consistently do that in the playoffs, which is why neither one is a "superstar".

[Ghazi]

Fucking idiot. How is 26.8/12 chokign? The Mavs lost 3 games by double digits that series, and the last was only due to a series of fluky 3's by George at the end, causing us to "only" lose by 5.

[sonic21]

He choked against the Hornets last year as well. You can make the argument KG's teammates choked various times, but the leader of the team is responsible for putting the team on his back if the other players are struggling. Neither one is able to consistently do that in the playoffs, which is why neither one is a "superstar".

Dirk was hurt last year

[Ghazi]

KG in 08 Finals goes to show that even when you choke, you can still win.

[balli]

You mavs fans are like pack of shitty monkeys just screaming your heads off.

[Findog]

I know people don't like KG around here (which I wholly don't understand) but Dirk isn't half the player or star that KG is. Maybe in some other dimensional NBA universe predicated on celebrating softness and a lack of defense, Dirk is a superstar, but not here.

:rolleyes

Dirk and KG are at the same level.

U still mad over Kirilenko and Harpring?

[Findog]

He choked against the Hornets last year as well.

Fucking Idiot:

27 points, 12 rebounds and 4 assists per game on 47% shooting. He and Bass were the ONLY guys that showed up against the Hornets. New Orleans was a much better team than the Mavericks last year, so how exactly is it a choke job when you play above your season averages but you lose because your team isn't as good as the opponent?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Maybe if you replaced Dirk with a guy like Nash or somebody, then yeah. But through his career Dirk's been very good in the playoffs.

Dirk 44.7% career in the playoffs, Nash 46.7% career in the playoffs. If a PG who shoots 46.7% in the playoffs is a choker, then what is a PF who shoots 44.7% in the playoffs?

[balli]

U still mad over Kirilenko and Harpring?

I'm still mad that Mavs fans completely lost it and said some ridiculous things about me, my team and my state because they got blown out by us when we were missing out top three scorers and rebounders. For some reason plenty of mavs fans spent about a week and a half trying to justify what Dirk did to Harpring as if it was fair retaliation for the AK flop.

One of the most immature, unaccountable and bitch-made reactions to a single loss, that I've ever seen. The mavs fanbase should be ashamed about that.

[Findog]

I take Deron over Dirk any day of the week. And given Millsap's salary, him too. And AK's not far behind.

I'd take Deron over Dirk if I were a GM. If I'm a coach, either one is fine, you can't say one is superior to the other, they just have different skillsets and do different things on the court.

[Findog]

I'm still mad that Mavs fans completely lost it and said some ridiculous things about me, my team and my state because they got blown out by us when we were missing out top three scorers and rebounders. For some reason plenty of mavs fans spent about a week and a half trying to justify what Dirk did to Harpring as if it was fair retaliation for the AK flop.

One of the most immature, unaccountable and bitch-made reactions to a single loss, that I've ever seen.

Most of what is said on here is just joking around. Any time Utah is involved, there's going to be Mormon jokes. Any time the Mavs are mentioned, jokes about soft and choking. Get used to it. And Dirk didn't mean to strike Harpring with a closed fist. He deserved the ejections both times for poor body control, but he should'nt have been forced to sit out the next games.

[Findog]

Dirk 44.7% career in the playoffs, Nash 46.7% career in the playoffs. If a PG who shoots 46.7% in the playoffs is a choker, then what is a PF who shoots 44.7% in the playoffs?

Dirk took a team to the Finals and played great doing it. Nash can't say the same. Neither are chokers, but there's no way you can say Nash has a better playoff resume than Dirk.

[balli]

Most of what is said on here is just joking around. Any time Utah is involved, there's going to be Mormon jokes.
That's not what I'm referring to.


And Dirk didn't mean to strike Harpring with a closed fist.
I totally believe he did. There was a Mavs fan youtube video that paused, slowed down and sped up the tempo of the play several times so as to make it look like Dirk didn't, stop, think, close his fist and smack Harpring. In real time, it was obvious, to me anyway, that it was 100% on purpose.


He deserved the ejections both times for poor body control, but he should'nt have been forced to sit out the next games.
Last year he deserved worse. He injured somebody on a purposeful flagrant. IMO, he should've had to sit 2x the amount of games AK did. Objectively, I don't think he should have been suspended this year, but fuck it, I hate dirk and I'm glad it happened.

[JamStone]

Two ways of looking at how to define "superstar."

Commercial superstardom and superstardom based on play on the basketball court. Or both.

Someone like Joe Johnson might play like a superstar, but he doesn't have the commercial appeal, probably the personality, the publicity, or the venue to really be considered one. Same can be said for a guy like Al Jefferson. But, if we based it on just play, I would consider both of those guys. Same can be said for players like Michael Redd and Brandon Roy (although he gets some pub) and to a lesser extent Chris Bosh. And, even to a much lesser extent, the same can be said of Tim Duncan.

Then there are guys like Vince Carter and Baron Davis that still have a good deal of commercial appeal that probably don't play at a superstar level, at least consistently anymore.

Right now, I say there are four legitimate superstars in the league that have both aspects of "superstardom."

LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, and Chris Paul.

There are other players that are close like Yao and Dwight and Carmelo and even young kids like OJ Mayo and Derrick Rose. But, I'm hesitant to say that them or any other players are really "SUPERSTARS."

[de Soto]

Duncan and Bryant. That's it.

[Findog]

The day KG lets Wally Freaking Szczerbiak blow right by him for a dunk, he'll be worse than Dirk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mN8XRYijq4

Is that from the beginning of the season when Dirk was bothered by that leg injury? Great example.

The scouting report on Dirk's defense needs to be rewritten. He'll never been an elite defender, but he is hardly a liability anymore. He should never be mentioned with the likes of Amare or Nash ever again. Mainly thanks to Avery, Dirk has worked his ass off into being decent on the defensive end. And since he's arguably the most efficient scorer in the league, he will easily win his matchup almost every night.

[Findog]

but fuck it, I hate dirk and I'm glad it happened.

You have some serious frontal lobe damage. I understand why some people shit and hate on the Mavericks because Cuban is such a strong and in some eyes an obnoxious personality. But Dirk is an example of what's right with the NBA. I'm not some Dirk groupie blind to his flaws as a player, but I don't get the hating on him.

[Black]

Saying Dirk is a better player then Garnett, or even anywhere close to him is a bit much.

I understand you guys might dislike Garnett, but that's just ridiculous. Dirk is a soft little pussy.

[JoeTait75]

Is that from the beginning of the season when Dirk was bothered by that leg injury? Great example.

Touche.

Still, if it comes down to Dirk-v-KG, I have to take KG. Dirk might be a better defender than he used to be, and he's certainly a more diverse, efficient scorer, but he'll never be in KG's league as an individual or team defender, no matter how hard he works on it. He just doesn't have the quickness or the leaping ability.

EDIT- Having said that, if you put Dirk in, say, Hank Egan's defensive scheme, you can minimize his weaknesses on that end while retaining his superior scoring ability, and in that case, he might be more valuable than KG.

[balli]

I'm not some Dirk groupie blind to his flaws as a player, but I don't get the hating on him.
Well, you watch a guy injure one of the Mavs most important players with flagrant... and then try to keep liking him. It has nothing to do with basketball, or the notion of who's "good for the NBA"... it's personal.

[DAF86]

Two ways of looking at how to define "superstar."

Commercial superstardom and superstardom based on play on the basketball court. Or both.

Someone like Joe Johnson might play like a superstar, but he doesn't have the commercial appeal, probably the personality, the publicity, or the venue to really be considered one. Same can be said for a guy like Al Jefferson. But, if we based it on just play, I would consider both of those guys. Same can be said for players like Michael Redd and Brandon Roy (although he gets some pub) and to a lesser extent Chris Bosh. And, even to a much lesser extent, the same can be said of Tim Duncan.

Then there are guys like Vince Carter and Baron Davis that still have a good deal of commercial appeal that probably don't play at a superstar level, at least consistently anymore.

Right now, I say there are four legitimate superstars in the league that have both aspects of "superstardom."

LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, and Chris Paul.

There are other players that are close like Yao and Dwight and Carmelo and even young kids like OJ Mayo and Derrick Rose. But, I'm hesitant to say that them or any other players are really "SUPERSTARS."

Duncan doesn't have the media hype, but he has the media recognition which is a 100 times better. To me he has both aspects of "superstardom".

P.S: I don't know if I catch Joe Johnson in a lot of bad games, but to me he is nothing more than a star wannabe, he takes a lot of awful shots. It's easy to put points in the board when you shoot a lot.

[balli]

P.S: I don't know if a catch Joe Johnson in a lot of bad games,
You must, because Joe Johnson is awesome.

[Findog]

Touche.

Still, if it comes down to Dirk-v-KG, I have to take KG. Dirk might be a better defender than he used to be, and he's certainly a more diverse, efficient scorer, but he'll never be in KG's league as an individual or team defender, no matter how hard he works on it. He just doesn't have the quickness or the leaping ability.

EDIT- Having said that, if you put Dirk in, say, Hank Egan's defensive scheme, you can minimize his weaknesses on that end while retaining his superior scoring ability, and in that case, he might be more valuable than KG.

KG and Dirk are not quite Batmen, but they're better than Robin. Dirk is a much more versatile and efficient scorer, KG is a much better defender. They have different skillsets. I put them at about the same level. Dirk's reputation has never fully recovered from Miami and Golden State, but by any objective measure he is one of the top 5-9 players in the league. You can't name 10 players better than Dirk. You can probably name 10 guys you'd rather have than Dirk because of age and contract size, but you can't name 10 guys a coach would rather have than Dirk. Meanwhile, KG's rep is a bit inflated now because surrounded by a very talented group, he finally got a ring. They're equals in my mind.

[Brazil]

You have some serious frontal lobe damage. I understand why some people shit and hate on the Mavericks because Cuban is such a strong and in some eyes an obnoxious personality. But Dirk is an example of what's right with the NBA. I'm not some Dirk groupie blind to his flaws as a player, but I don't get the hating on him.

+1 Dirk is a hell of a player, he is one the classest player and it's a pleasure to see him playing this game.

[JoeTait75]

Being the top player on a team with multiple rings makes you a superstar. Tim is definitely a superstar.

[DAF86]

You must, because Joe Johnson is awesome.

Well, probably. But let me tell you that atempting 19 f/g to get 22 points per game isn't eye poping IMO.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Dirk took a team to the Finals and played great doing it. Nash can't say the same. Neither are chokers, but there's no way you can say Nash has a better playoff resume than Dirk.

Sure I can. That was one season. The fact Dirk was able to carry Dallas to the finals by beating the Spurs when TD has plantar fascitis (whatever the spelling is), Parker had a bruised tailbone and Manu clearly had several minor ailments and then beat the Suns when Amare was out and Bell had a torn calf muscle doesn't make his playoff resume better than Nash's. Take Josh Howard out of the equation in 2006 and who wins the WCF?

[JoeTait75]

Dirk's reputation has never fully recovered from Miami and Golden State, but by any objective measure he is one of the top 5-9 players in the league. You can't name 10 players better than Dirk. You can probably name 10 guys you'd rather have than Dirk because of age and contract size, but you can't name 10 guys a coach would rather have than Dirk. Meanwhile, KG's rep is a bit inflated now because surrounded by a very talented group, he finally got a ring. They're equals in my mind.

I don't put Miami or Golden State on Dirk. In the first case he played his ass off, not just in that series but in the WC playoffs. The Golden State debacle is all on Avery, IMO.

It comes down to personal preferences. I can't dog anyone for taking Dirk over KG.

[balli]

Well, probably. But let me tell you that atempting 19 f/g to get 22 points per game isn't eye poping IMO.
I agree, I don't think he's the most efficient scorer, but really, he put the Hawks on his back 82 games a year for the past half decade and until this year, he didn't really have the luxury of worrying about efficiency. Otherwise, he's a good defender and passer- which is something that usually can't be said about inefficient scorers.

[DAF86]

Sure I can. That was one season. The fact Dirk was able to carry Dallas to the finals by beating the Spurs when TD has plantar fascitis (whatever the spelling is), Parker had a bruised tailbone and Manu clearly had several minor ailments and then beat the Suns when Amare was out and Bell had a torn calf muscle doesn't make his playoff resume better than Nash's. Take Josh Howard out of the equation in 2006 and who wins the WCF?

That minor ailment being having a mental blockege in the last minute of the regular time. :bang

[Findog]

Sure I can.

Doesn't make it any more true.


That was one season. The fact Dirk was able to carry Dallas to the finals by beating the Spurs when TD has plantar fascitis (whatever the spelling is), Parker had a bruised tailbone and Manu clearly had several minor ailments and then beat the Suns when Amare was out and Bell had a torn calf muscle doesn't make his playoff resume better than Nash's. Take Josh Howard out of the equation in 2006 and who wins the WCF?


If If If If If If If If If If If....yeah, you're a Suns fan.

[Findog]

I don't put Miami or Golden State on Dirk. In the first case he played his ass off, not just in that series but in the WC playoffs. The Golden State debacle is all on Avery, IMO.

It comes down to personal preferences. I can't dog anyone for taking Dirk over KG.

Nor can I dog anybody for taking KG over Dirk. It's when one asserts that one is far superior to the other that I have to object.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

If If If If If If If If If If If....yeah, you're a Suns fan.

I know exactly what you mean by that and yes I would generally agree w/ you the hypotheticals my fellow Suns fans come up with can get annoying, however the discussion is strictly about Dirk's playoff resume and Nash's playoff resume. When individual playoff achievements are being discussed, injuries to opposing players/teammates are a factor.

In other words, it's not as simple as "which team advanced further" like it normally is.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Nor can I dog anybody for taking KG over Dirk. It's when one asserts that one is far superior to the other that I have to object.

They are about equal IMO. The reason I give KG the slight edge is he is better at making his teammates better, it's unclear if Dirk does that well at all.

[endrity]

Well KG and Dirk went head to head in 02, when KG had one of his best teams as Wolve with Chauncey and Wally in his all star year, while KG was also a much more mature player.
Dirk raped his ass every possible way, averaging 33 and 15 with KG not being able to defend him once.

I have never seen the Spurs change their whole philosophy to adjust for KG, they do it every time for the Mavs.
I have never seen KG have anything even close to what Dirk had in 06 (or even 02, 03) as far as a playoff run goes, that was a historic personal run. Boston played 26 playoff games last year, and KG had 1-2 good 4th quarters. He was completely non-existent throughout the Cavs series in crunch time.

The reason why Dirk is down is because of Golden State, and while Avery screwed up a lot of things, Dirk also didn't play his best no doubt. But if one series is why we trash him, than what can we say about KG.

But please go watch games 5 and 6 again of the Finals, he was matching Wade play for play down the stretch, while Wade was hitting FTs on the other hand (legitimately or not, not the issue here). The man had a high ankle sprain against the Hornets last year, and throughout the 1st round had the 3rd of 4th highest PER by all the players in the playoffs, he played extremely well.

There are so many more angles to go here, like how much of a leader or a pose Garnett really is, how he can never produce in the 4th, how Dirk's D is seriously underrated by a lot of people, but I think what I said above is good enough.

[endrity]

They are about equal IMO. The reason I give KG the slight edge is he is better at making his teammates better, it's unclear if Dirk does that well at all.

Just check pre-Mavs Jet and after-Mavs Jet to see that. And yes KG was making his teammates really better throughout the Minny years. Are you gonna tell me he made Pierce and Allen better???? If anything the opposite happened.

[Brazil]

For once I'm on the mav fans side.

[JoeTait75]

Maybe you should be laughing at this stupid statement you just made. The only thing that James does better than Kobe and Duncan is make better commercials. James found out who the real Superstar was when he met Duncan in finals, and when he went overseas he was shocked that Kobe eclipsed his popularity. You can tell it cracked his fragile ego.

James..."Kobe is the man in China"
My ass Queen James... Kobe is the man in the states.

Put Tim on the Cavaliers, put LeBron on the Spurs, and explain to me how the result would have been any different.

Better yet, put Kobe on the Cavaliers and explain to me how the result would have been any different.

Or maybe LeBron sucks because he can't beat the best of San Antonio's championship teams all by himself. :sleep

[Sportstudi]

That's obviously changed.


DKB3ey97vs0

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

[Findog]

Well, you watch a guy injure one of the Mavs most important players with flagrant... and then try to keep liking him.

I couldn't care less about Craig Smith, and he actually drew blood.

[Findog]

Just check pre-Mavs Jet and after-Mavs Jet to see that.

Amen. Terry scored in Atlanta, but he did it shooting between 41-43%. That sucks. He's shot anywhere from 47-50% in Dallas.

[Sportstudi]

Dirk only choked against the warriors, he had many great series. he didn't choke in the finals, the other mavs did.

you forgot to add the refs

[Sportstudi]

He choked against the Hornets last year as well. You can make the argument KG's teammates choked various times, but the leader of the team is responsible for putting the team on his back if the other players are struggling. Neither one is able to consistently do that in the playoffs, which is why neither one is a "superstar".

??? You want to tell me that 26.8 ppg, 12.0 rpg and 4.0 apg are a piece of shit? The whole team besides Dirk (you can add Bass as well) choked against the Hornets, but definitely not Dirk. He also had the highest PER in the playoffs last season -> Link (http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Efficiency.jsp?league=00&season=42007&conf=OVERALL&position=0&splitType=9&splitScope=GAME&qualified=N&yearsExp=-1&splitDD=)

[Armando]

1- Kobe
2- Duncan
3- Wade
4- Pierce
5- KG

[Armando]

you forgot to add the refs



Refs? Ok I agree there were some calls in the Finals that maybe were questionable. But what about Dirk's shooting at less then 40 percent? Then how about the 1st round exits to Golden State and New Orleans? For some reason the Mavs have been owned by Guards the last 3 seasons in the playoffs.

[endrity]

Refs? Ok I agree there were some calls in the Finals that maybe were questionable. But what about Dirk's shooting at less then 40 percent? Then how about the 1st round exits to Golden State and New Orleans? For some reason the Mavs have been owned by Guards the last 3 seasons in the playoffs.

...which clearely is Dirk's responsability!!!

[dirk4mvp]

Refs? Ok I agree there were some calls in the Finals that maybe were questionable. But what about Dirk's shooting at less then 40 percent? Then how about the 1st round exits to Golden State and New Orleans? For some reason the Mavs have been owned by Guards the last 3 seasons in the playoffs.

Loooooong before that too. Know a guy named Steve Nash? Remember him getting his shit pushed in by Mike Bibby?

[dirk4mvp]

ballijauna's just mad Jerry Stackhouse has beaten the shit out of every player to put on a Jazz jersey.

[Armando]

...which clearely is Dirk's responsability!!!



Not saying checking guards is his responsbility. Just saying that when it counted in the 2006 Finals Dirk was M.I.A. That fact that Wade,Baron and Paul dominated the Mavs made Dirk's disappearing act all the more glaring. Like it or not the franchise player gets all the credit and the blame.

[dirk4mvp]

Not saying checking guards is his responsbility. Just saying that when it counted in the 2006 Finals Dirk was M.I.A. That fact that Wade,Baron and Paul dominated the Mavs made Dirk's disappearing act all the more glaring. Like it or not the franchise player gets all the credit and the blame.


Yeah right. When's the last time Nash has taken blame from the media for failing every year?

[Findog]

Refs? Ok I agree there were some calls in the Finals that maybe were questionable. But what about Dirk's shooting at less then 40 percent? Then how about the 1st round exits to Golden State and New Orleans? For some reason the Mavs have been owned by Guards the last 3 seasons in the playoffs.

He only shot poorly against Golden State. His Finals was actually quite good, but Wade's was greater. Against New Orleans, he was just as good as 2006.

If you want to detect a theme with Mav playoff failures, here it is:

2005 - Steve Nash (they also almost let T Mac out of the first round)
2006 - Dwyane Wade
2007 - Baron Davis
2008 - Chris Paul

Which, as was noted, is Dirk's defensive assignment. :rolleyes

[Armando]

Loooooong before that too. Know a guy named Steve Nash? Remember him getting his shit pushed in by Mike Bibby?



Yes I know it sill happens but wan't Jason Terry supposed to improve on that?

[dirk4mvp]

Yes I know it sill happens but wan't Jason Terry supposed to improve on that?


uh no.

[Findog]

Not saying checking guards is his responsbility. Just saying that when it counted in the 2006 Finals Dirk was M.I.A.

You obviously didn't watch that series. He was clutch in G5 and G6. Wade was just that much better. Take away the leeway Wade received from the refs and that Dirk did not get, their performances are pretty much a wash with each other.

And to answer Spur fan objections about how Dirk got "Wade" treatment in the semis, so did Duncan. Duncan lived at the line in that series.

[endrity]

Not saying checking guards is his responsbility. Just saying that when it counted in the 2006 Finals Dirk was M.I.A. That fact that Wade,Baron and Paul dominated the Mavs made Dirk's disappearing act all the more glaring. Like it or not the franchise player gets all the credit and the blame.

Go look at games 5 and 6 again, the ones that decided the Finals.

Why is that since Wade, Baron, Paul WON against the mavs, it makes Dirk's dissapearing act even more glaring???? Wade and Paul are among the elite (top 5-6 players in the league) and Baron was playing just as well during those playoffs. That makes no sense at all.

[Armando]

He only shot poorly against Golden State. His Finals was actually quite good, but Wade's was greater. Against New Orleans, he was just as good as 2006.

If you want to detect a theme with Mav playoff failures, here it is:

2005 - Steve Nash (they also almost let T Mac out of the first round)
2006 - Dwyane Wade
2007 - Baron Davis
2008 - Chris Paul

Which, as was noted, is Dirk's defensive assignment. :rolleyes



Nash was not in Dallas for the 2005 playoffs.

[endrity]

Yes I know it sill happens but wan't Jason Terry supposed to improve on that?


uh no.

Yes, the first team all-nba defensive player JET terry was supposed to change that....

And even if he did, how is that relevant when we are discussing Dirk?

[endrity]

Nash was not in Dallas for the 2005 playoffs.

He means a guard owning the Mavs again, just like in 04 and 02 by Mike Bibby by the way.

[Sportstudi]

:rolleyes

Dirk and KG are at the same level.

U still mad over Kirilenko and Harpring?

Obviously. Seems to be the only reason why he's bashing Dirk continuously. Moreover, he controverts himself all the time. On the one hand he called Dirk being soft, but how can such a "soft" guy shove Kirilenko and Harpring...? According to his opinion, Dirk should have started crying instead of shoving. Moreover, it seems that he forgot that one of the most dirty players ever within the NBA was on his team, namely Karl Malone. I do not want to know how many players he shoved onto the ground with injuries.

Edit: @ ballijuana: Well, I can understand you if you are pissed, because one of your players went down after a flagrant (Kirilenko). But even if you dislike a player, it should not be impossible to give someone the respect he deserves in terms of the game. It's the same with Malone. I don't think you can really say that he was such a nice guy on the court. If necessary, he was dirty as hell.

Although it shouldn't be a thread of Dirk vs. Garnett or about the thoughness of Dirk, I will add some lines about Dirk and how he's being treated sometimes (I wrote about it earlier around here). Because I'm pissed about the lack of respect he gets around the NBA, respectively from the media and the fans. Personally I do not have any problem to give other good players the respect they deserve, no matter on which team they are.

Of course, nobody has to be a fan of Dallas and it is okay to dislike a team, but at least you should be fair enough to give the players the respect they deserve. For instance, name me another 7-footer who has collected over 1,000 made-three-pointers?? There is no other. He's a 7-footer with the ability to launch a perimeter game. That's also one reason why he doesn't get so many boards on the offensive end like Garnett.

Dirk was, is and will always be mistreated by the fans and the media. He will never get the same credits like KB, LBJ, Duncan, Garnett or anyone else of the star-players, although he can play on the same level. Read for instance this article:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/26258-Kobe-s-Play-the-Product-of-Biased-NBA-officiating

Citation: "What takes the hit is Dirk's FG%, because he is getting fouled repeatedly and not allowed to play his game. And the impact of this is huge. It allows one player to defend Dirk rather than double or triple teams, which impedes the offense and prevents the other Mavs from scoring.

And the way Kobe is officated does the complete opposite for his teammates. They are getting wide open three pointers constantly and layups because you need multiple defenders to defend Kobe, because unlike with Dirk, one guy isn't allowed to foul Kobe constantly."

Another one:
http://frontburner.dmagazine.com/2008/06/18/european-players/

Yes, and Dirk is always called a choker... The 2006 finals were the product of the dreams of Stern and Salvatore who wanted to have Wade as the next superstar. Point. Even T-Mac stated once (don't remember where I read that) that the refereeing in the finals was nothing but a big joke. Of course, it is easy to blame that on one player. Especially if he is not marketingable for the media like Dirk is.

There is another article to be found here. The part concerning the NBA Finals is in the upper third. Some parts out of this one (I put it here because then you don't have to search throughout the whole blog):
http://theabsolutebestblog.blogspot.com/


The Miami Heat have Dwyane Wade, one of the best players in the NBA and People Magazine’s “50 Most Beautiful People.” The Heat have Pat Riley, the championship-winning Head Coach. The Heat have Shaquille O’Neal, and while he definitely won’t be mistaken for De Niro, the Big Malapropism is still the NBA’s Fonz. And yes, the Heat have the bright lights and beautiful people of South Beach.

The Dallas Mavericks best player, Dirk Nowitzki, is a lanky German that resembles Scooby-Doo’s Shaggy. The Mavericks Head Coach, Avery Johnson, sounds like he just inhaled a balloon-full of helium. The Mavericks Owner, Mark Cuban, is an ex-computer geek so uncool he makes Technology Kip look Fonz-like. And once again, Dallas’ backdrop ain’t got jack on Miami’s.

Based on marketability, that’s an easy pick. Right?

That’s just the thing—you don’t pick in sports. Ever hear the expressions “let ‘em play” or “may the best man win?” Sure, they are trite, but they are also true. The reason we fell in love with sports in the first place is because sometimes History writes better storylines than we could ever conceive ourselves. I say let History pick up the quills and do its thing.

Unfortunately, NBA Commissioner David Stern doesn’t agree.

Not only has Stern and his regime favored the Heat during these NBA Finals because of the abovementioned reasons, but also because of his disdain for Cuban. Let’s just say that Cuban and Stern have had some tiffs in the past, usually over the policies of the league and the performance of its officials.

As a result of both the appeal of the Miami Heat and his hatred of Cuban, Stern seems hell-bent on making O’Neal and Wade Miami’s most popular duo since Vice’s Sonny Crockett and Rico Tubbs.

Since I’ve made the accusations, here is the evidence…

The Odds are Stack-ed Against ‘Em

In Game 4, Mavs G Jerry Stackhouse impeded what would have been an easy Shaq dunk with what used to be a "good, clean, hard foul." In fact, even the refs officiating the game didn’t believe that the foul was excessive. They only issued Stackhouse a Flagrant One foul. I think Wade’s knee-jerk reaction to mediate a potential fight made the foul look more severe than it actually was.

Stackhouse is a well-respected player that has been accused of being “soft,” but never, ever of being a bully. He simply wanted to keep Shaq, a horrendous free-throw shooter, from getting two easy points. That is no easy task. Stackhouse had no idea how hard he would have to contact Shaq in order to prevent an easy flush, so he went for the ball hard, getting a lot of body in the process. And when a 340 lb man hits the ground after running at full speed, it will always look bad.

Stackhouse’s one-game suspension is a joke. Sacramento Kings F Ron Artest, the NBA’s version of Mike Tyson, received a one-gamer for maliciously going after Manu Ginobli in a blowout. Heat F Udonis Haslem received a one-gamer for chucking his mouthpiece at a ref. Mavs G Jason Terry and Nuggets F Reggie Evans both received one-gamers for trying to rearrange their opponents man-atomy.

And Stack gets a one-game vacation for what used to be a “good, clean, hard foul?” This is simple—Stern saw his chance to aid the Heat in this series and pounced. Call me clinically insane, but I really believe that Stackhouse, possibly the NBA’s best sub, would have made a difference in the Mavs’ Game 5 101-100 OT loss to the Heat.

Dwyane’s World

Game 5 free-throw attempts: Dwayne Wade 25, Dallas Mavericks 24.

Now I understand team’s getting a call here and there at home, but this is getting re-freakin’-diculous. Wade is a damn good player, arguably as good as any in the league today. But all of a sudden the third-year marvel is getting treatment that I’m not even sure M.J. used to get back in the day. The most free throws that his Airness ever attempted during his prolific 15-year career was 27. The numbers just don’t add up.

To make matters worse, the refs handed Wade the game-winning points on a silver platter. First, it looked like there was a backcourt violation when he caught the inbounds pass with 9.1 seconds left in overtime. Second, even though he drew a foul on his drive to the hoop with 1.9 seconds remaining, it appeared that he was the one who was out of control. Wade even knocked Jason Terry down to the floor.

Nonetheless, despite both the apparent backcourt violation and the phantom foul, Wade was awarded two free throws. He calmly stepped up and knocked down both shots, giving the Heat the 101-100 victory.

Out Of Time?

The NBA and Game 5 refs Joey Crawford and Joe DeRosa stand by the claim that Mavs F Josh Howard boneheadedly burned the Mavs final timeout in-between Wade’s decisive free throws. Crawford says that Howard was looking right at DeRosa when he signaled “timeout.”

That is complete B.S.

Howard has vehemently denied this claim, saying that he “was looking straight at Coach" when he made the signal. I watched the entire game. It was obvious to me that Howard was communicating with Johnson over when to call the Mavs’ final timeout. I understand that Howard has to be more alert during late-game situations, but the refs also have to allow players to communicate with their coaches.

The refs jumped all over the Mavs communication breakdown. Although they won’t admit it, it was a subtle way to ensure Stern’s Game 5 objective—another Heat victory.

---

Yes, he had some downs in these games, but the major reason for the final result was biased officiating. How many people hacked Kobe after the loss the the celtics in June? Not as many as in Dirk's case. The Celtics were so strong etc... were the major reasons at this time. Kobe did not perform well, but there was not any bashing in the dimensions Dirk experienced two years ago. In 2007 he did not play well, that is right. No doubt about that. But every player can have a weak series (and in 2006 Dirk played very well until the finals and also in the first two games).

Dirk is not given the respect that most other stars would get with the same performance. But why? As written in that third article, he is a lanky, white, tall European-guy who is shooting the three and using the jumpshot. You have an owner that speaks his mind, and you have a nontraditional foreigner as your best player. Dirk ain't a screamer. Dirk ain't "tough." He has no street cred. He isn't a thug. He goes about his business the best he can. Dirk is "soft" and a "jump shooting big man". Dirk would never say that he's the best player in the world -> http://www.hoopsvibe.com/nba-blog/why-paul-pierce-believes-he-s-better-than-kobe-bryant-ar48724.html

Dirk doesn't get arrested and hasn't been accused of anything besides being in the gym too much. Dirk isn't going to give many hot-sports-opinions about other players or get in many fights. Who is his main rival? Who truly despises Dirk. Simply: That isn't sexy for the media and thus they don't favour him and many fans have a bad impression of him.

One of the biggest problems for Dirk is he has the best of both worlds in terms of his game, size and skills, but that in turn gets him the worst of both worlds in terms of officiating. Perimeter players get a lot of touch foul calls. Post players have to be hammered to get a call. The undeserved problem with Dirk is he is physically a post player but he has a perimeter game. A touch foul makes a bigger difference when you are trying to score from 15 feet away. Getting hammered 2 feet away from the basket has less of an effect on a player. To say it plain and simple, Dirk is ahead of his time.

And about a championship: There are players like Dirk, Malone, Barkley, Stockton, Ewing, Reggie etc... Those guys are/were good enough to win a ring, but they are/were victims of bad timing or bad overall teams.


I'm sorry for the very long post. But I had to add it into the discussion. Maybe some will write things like "whiner", "choker" "you are as gay as Nowitzki" after reading that post, but for me that only shows that those people cannot or do not want to argue. The influence of the media has already reached them... :rolleyes

[Armando]

Go look at games 5 and 6 again, the ones that decided the Finals.

Why is that since Wade, Baron, Paul WON against the mavs, it makes Dirk's dissapearing act even more glaring???? Wade and Paul are among the elite (top 5-6 players in the league) and Baron was playing just as well during those playoffs. That makes no sense at all.



Dirk shot 39% for the series including a 2 for 14 stinker in Game 4.

[Findog]

Nash was not in Dallas for the 2005 playoffs.

And?

[endrity]

Dirk shot 39% for the series including a 2 for 14 stinker in Game 4.

And Wade was also anonimous in Game 1 and not that much better in game 2. Did you watch Duncan's game 4 in the 05 Finals? Your point again?

Did you watch the ends of games 5 and 6?

Yes yes I know, Dirk is a soft choker, KG is tough, end of the argument.

[DAF86]

Start thinking before you post man.

Says the man that compares Arenas with Wade


Parker was an MVP in the finals right? Hes not on the list is he? So was Pierce too right? Bad choice of logic here.

The difference between Wade and Parker/Pierce is that these last two had a lot more help. Wade carried the Heat almost by himself. Either way Parker and Pierce are a lot better than Arenas.


KG never took a lottery team to the finals. He was paired with two other allstars.

Take KG out of that team and I don't know if they make the playoffs


And Williams doesnt have to do as much as CP3, but judging by the way they play head to head, one would think Deron was better

And judging by last year's finals, one would think that Pierce is better than Kobe. But you need to look at the whole picture to get a conclusion about something.

[Sportstudi]

Refs? Ok I agree there were some calls in the Finals that maybe were questionable. But what about Dirk's shooting at less then 40 percent? Then how about the 1st round exits to Golden State and New Orleans? For some reason the Mavs have been owned by Guards the last 3 seasons in the playoffs.

Concerning the game vs the Hornets -> just read the whole thread. There are already a couple of posts about it. Dirk had great numbers, the highest PER in the league, but the whole rest of the team (maybe except Bass) sucked totally. That's why they lost, not because of him.
Against Golden State -> Yes, Dirk didn't play well, that's correct, but additionally he was still dealing with his leg injury. And Avery sucked completely. Incredible bad coaching.

[Armando]

Says the man that compares Arenas with Wade



The difference between Wade and Parker/Pierce is that these last two had a lot more help. Wade carried the Heat almost by himself. Either way Parker and Pierce are a lot better than Arenas.



Take KG out of that team and I don't know if they make the playoffs



And judging by last year's finals, one would think that Pierce is better than Kobe. But you need to look at the whole picture to get a conclusion about something.


Did he really compare Wade with Arenas? :lol

[endrity]

Take KG out of that team and I don't know if they make the playoffs


A team with Pierce, Allen, Rondo, Al Jefferson, Perkins, Ryan Gomes is not a playoff team in the East?????

Step away from whatever you are smoking.

[E20]

Dirk > KG

Dirk didn't need to hitch a ride with two other all stars to make it to the Finals. Didn't cry on camera either.

[DAF86]

A team with Pierce, Allen, Rondo, Al Jefferson, Perkins, Ryan Gomes is not a playoff team in the East?????

Step away from whatever you are smoking.

Who the hell were Rondo and Perkins before Garnett got there?

The reason the Celtics won it all last year and are what they're right now is their defense and the mayor responsible of that is KG.

Besides I didn't say he wouldn't make the playoffs I said I didn't know. What I do know is that they wouldn't have won the championship.

[naico]

Superstars + :

Tim Duncan
Kobe Bryant

Why: - Can dominate on O AND D
- Are Clutch
- Are regular performers throughout their careers
- Have brought home championships, competed and won on the highest level possible on numerous occasions.
- Still admidst the best right now

Superstars (Not Q. Yet):

Lebron James
Dwayne Wade

Stars:

Paul Pierce
Manu Ginobili
Tony Parker
Dirk Nowitzki
Kevin Garnett
Chris Paul

Best of All-Stars:

C. Bosh
J. Johnson
D. Howard
C. Billups
D. Williams

[endrity]

Rondo and Perkins, if I can remind you, are both very young lottery picks during the era that the Celtics were crappy and were accumulating assets to use for a big move later (which they did).

Rondo's speed and agility are what they are not because of KG.
The whole concept of making a player better has been shut down many many times but statisticians.

Rondo is in his third year, and it can be argued very easily that he might have turned into a very good player with or without KG. He was highly regarded from his rookie year, I remember Phx fans being pissed at the Suns for trading his rights.

[endrity]

Superstars + :

Tim Duncan
Kobe Bryant

Why: - Can dominate on O AND D
- Are Clutch
- Are regular performers throughout their careers
- Have brought home championships, competed and won on the highest level possible on numerous occasions.
- Still admidst the best right now

Superstars (Not Q. Yet):

Lebron James
Dwayne Wade

Stars:

Paul Pierce
Manu Ginobili
Tony Parker
Dirk Nowitzki
Kevin Garnett
Chris Paul

Best of All-Stars:

C. Bosh
J. Johnson
D. Howard
C. Billups
D. Williams

I understand Manu, his per minutes numbers have always been amazing, but Tony that high is a bit of homerism methinks.

[romad_20]

Superstars + :

Tim Duncan
Kobe Bryant

Why: - Can dominate on O AND D
- Are Clutch
- Are regular performers throughout their careers
- Have brought home championships, competed and won on the highest level possible on numerous occasions.
- Still admidst the best right now

Superstars (Not Q. Yet):

Lebron James
Dwayne Wade

Stars:

Paul Pierce
Manu Ginobili
Tony Parker
Dirk Nowitzki
Kevin Garnett
Chris Paul

Best of All-Stars:

C. Bosh
J. Johnson
D. Howard
C. Billups
D. Williams

I can agree with this list. Pretty good ranking and thought behind it, but I would have to include James in the same conversation with Kobe and Duncan. His impact on the game is probably more than Tim and Kobe at this point.

[naico]

I put Parker there, becuz he's been a proven winner and leader on the highest level. He's been part of 3 championships and won an NBA finals MVP award. Same for Manu.

[romad_20]

I understand Manu, his per minutes numbers have always been amazing, but Tony that high is a bit of homerism methinks.


Not at this point in his career. He's a final's MVP and he's young. Also I would include Billups in that same tier.

[balli]

Best of All-Stars

C. Bosh
J. Johnson
D. Howard
C. Billups
D. Williams

I agree, but technically Deron isn't an All-Star, nor will he be this season due to those stupid fucks in China.

[naico]

Not at this point in his career. He's a final's MVP and he's young. Also I would include Billups in that same tier.

Almost did.

[Warlord23]

Since the original thread has been hijacked anyway, my 2 cents on the KG-Dirk issue.

KG is obviously the better defender, and Dirk is easily the better offensive player. I think most will agree with that.

In terms of overall impact and value, it's a near wash ... and it's closer than most people are making it out to be. We all love to kick someone when they're down. When Dirk won the MVP and KG wasn't making the playoffs, people were calling Dirk the best forward in the league and KG was called a stat-stuffer who wasn't a leader or a winner. Then, KG wasn't making the All-star starting lineup or the All-NBA first team. Now, KG is the reigning champ/DPOY and people are calling Dirk soft/defensive matador etc.

Most of the cliches in this thread are exaggerations. Dirk is a unique offensive player who is not a very good defender; but he isn't a piss-poor defender either - the 06 and 07 Mavs were top 10 in FG% defense and rebounding % in the league. OTOH, KG is a very good defender (but not some type of all-time great; Thibodeau's system makes the Celts an excellent defensive team).

[endrity]

Since the original thread has been hijacked anyway, my 2 cents on the KG-Dirk issue.

KG is obviously the better defender, and Dirk is easily the better offensive player. I think most will agree with that.

In terms of overall impact and value, it's a near wash ... and it's closer than most people are making it out to be. We all love to kick someone when they're down. When Dirk won the MVP and KG wasn't making the playoffs, people were calling Dirk the best forward in the league and KG was called a stat-stuffer who wasn't a leader or a winner. Then, KG wasn't making the All-star starting lineup or the All-NBA first team. Now, KG is the reigning champ/DPOY and people are calling Dirk soft/defensive matador etc.

Most of the cliches in this thread are exaggerations. Dirk is a unique offensive player who is not a very good defender; but he isn't a piss-poor defender either - the 06 and 07 Mavs were top 10 in FG% defense and rebounding % in the league. OTOH, KG is a very good defender (but not some type of all-time great; Thibodeau's system makes the Celts an excellent defensive team).

Thank you! The Mavs continue to be a great rebounding team too, and Dirk has a lot to do with that. Because of his game he will never have a lot of off.rebounds but he has always been a great defensive rebounder.

[Xylus]

Since the original thread has been hijacked anyway, my 2 cents on the KG-Dirk issue.

KG is obviously the better defender, and Dirk is easily the better offensive player. I think most will agree with that.

In terms of overall impact and value, it's a near wash ... and it's closer than most people are making it out to be. We all love to kick someone when they're down. When Dirk won the MVP and KG wasn't making the playoffs, people were calling Dirk the best forward in the league and KG was called a stat-stuffer who wasn't a leader or a winner. Then, KG wasn't making the All-star starting lineup or the All-NBA first team. Now, KG is the reigning champ/DPOY and people are calling Dirk soft/defensive matador etc.

Most of the cliches in this thread are exaggerations. Dirk is a unique offensive player who is not a very good defender; but he isn't a piss-poor defender either - the 06 and 07 Mavs were top 10 in FG% defense and rebounding % in the league. OTOH, KG is a very good defender (but not some type of all-time great; Thibodeau's system makes the Celts an excellent defensive team).

Great take. If I had to trade Amare for one of those two power forwards, I'm not really sure who I'd take at this point in their careers.

[DAF86]

Garnett: Great defender-more than an above average offensive player

Nowitzki: Great offensive player-average defensive player (beign nice here)

=

Garnett better than Nowitzki

[endrity]

Garnett: Great defender-more than an above average offensive player

Nowitzki: Great offensive player-average defensive player (beign nice here)

=

Garnett better than Nowitzki

No.

The impact Dirk has on the offensive end is much more important than anything Garnett personally does on defense. Dirk changes the whole way teams prepare for a game because of how unique and hard to match he is. Rightfully so, after 06 people were saying he was a Top 2 offensive player in the league with Kobe being the other, and even today that is not far off.

[dirk4mvp]

Great take. If I had to trade Amare for one of those two power forwards, I'm not really sure who I'd take at this point in their careers.

If I were you, I'd just be pissed that Amare was on my team.

[m33p0]

Who the hell were Rondo and Perkins before Garnett got there?

The reason the Celtics won it all last year and are what they're right now is their defense and the mayor responsible of that is KG.

Besides I didn't say he wouldn't make the playoffs I said I didn't know. What I do know is that they wouldn't have won the championship.
they would also have Al Jefferson. Celtics were definitely playoff bound last year.

[Warlord23]

A game after getting owned by Harrington and Jeffries, KG gets punked by Boris Diaw

[dirk4mvp]

A game after getting owned by Harrington and Jeffries, KG gets punked by Boris Diaw


Were there any intense chest pounds?