"We have to do this or else everyone's screwed"

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Nice touch on the reasoning for the cash giveaway proposed by Obama.

Hey, it worked for Paulson... :rolleyes

[2centsworth]

it's lame. However, Paulson was right. Did he do the best of jobs, no, but something was needed ASAP. Otherwise, we would be looking at 15% unemployment right now and talks of the end of the world.

[smeagol]

You guys still don't get it.

If you do nothing, he recession will last 10 fucking years.

[2centsworth]

You guys still don't get it.

If you do nothing, he recession will last 10 fucking years.

are you suggesting the 2 trillion dollars or so spent from the bailout and the fed is nothing?


the stimulus as it reads now is very iffy.

[Winehole23]

Nice touch on the reasoning for the cash giveaway proposed by Obama.

Hey, it worked for Paulson... :rolleyesThis proposed "giveaway" is 40% tax cuts for US citizens, instead of 100% gravy for shitty banks and brokerages. You just hate that, don't you, AH? :rolleyes

IMO the stimulus is a feint -- the government can't just stand there and do nothing, right? -- and it is probably one or two orders of magnitude too small to have the intended effect.

The current stimulus is meant to prevent to prevent the chaotic unwinding of the largest credit bubble ever, and also to prevent deflation.

It won't work. Obama's spending the money we'll need for poorhouses.

IMO deflation and credit contraction, even though this will involve extreme social pain, is the real medicine. It leads to price discovery, a prudent balance between credit and real wealth, it wipes out bad debt and bad companies and restores the purchasing power of our currency.

It also will leave most of us poor. We partied high on the hog for a generation. Get ready for the hangover.

[Rockhound]

It also will leave most of us poor. We partied high on the hog for a generation. Get ready for the hangover.Wtf is we? I know what you mean. So the people that did the right things will still get hammered...

That makes me wish the dollar would collapse and the idiots running this country would start listening to the real people who do the right things.

haha suck talk is just a pipe dream. :downspin:

[Winehole23]

Apparently the USA wasn't even up against Armageddon that swift week of the $700 billion bailout.The Chicken Little thing worked. Once people start to see the danger we're in, it'll work even better.

Supposedly, we had no time to even consider alternatives, even though the credit crunch was official by late August 2007. One whole year to scheme, and the best they could come up with was a chicken little MBS redemption scheme that King Harry reneged on a few weeks later. But now, he's changed his mind again and wants the other $350 billion to relieve his Wall Street buddies of their illiquid financial dreck.

This time around there's no bank holiday or RTC style audit separating good from bad bets. We're giving hundreds of billions to insolvent firms that should be allowed fail and reorganize. Some of them are official bank receivers now. They will survive by gobbling up sound competitors, with our government's help.

The free market is fucking dead.

[Winehole23]

John Judis, establishment lib, withholds approval (http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=611d21dd-edb6-45f8-802c-568e35493234&k=55817) of the Obama stimulus and calls for the "fiscal equivalent of war and a new Bretton Woods."

[Winehole23]

Incoming Treasury Sec'y Tim Geithner is retooling the bailout (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/08/AR2009010804109.html).

[doobs]

The free market has been dead for a long time. Government intervention killed it.

[Winehole23]

The free market has been dead for a long time. Government intervention killed it.Well then, Paulson and the US Congress delivered the coup de grace.

We now have a mixed, Chinese-style system, with government valkyries deciding which companies survive, and holding key levers of the economy.

The grand irony is that GWB presided over the transition.

[doobs]

Well then, Paulson and the US Congress delivered the coup de grace.

We now have a mixed, Chinese-style system, with government valkyries deciding which companies survive, and holding key levers of the economy.

The grand irony is that GWB presided over the transition.

I would say that the free market was "discredited" by: (1) the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act; (2) FDR's New Deal; and (3) the Second World War. People have been fighting to bring it back ever since, with mixed results.

Smoot-Hawley made the election of FDR inevitable, and FDR's New Deal was basically a failure that was unfairly credited with solving our economic problems after our entry into the Second World War.

In other words, true free market capitalists would have continued to trade freely in the face of economic troubles. But Hoover blinked, signed Smoot-Hawley, and the economy turned into a pile of shit. People got scared, turned to the government for help, and we got FDR. Our collective allergy to recessions is the single biggest reason why the free market is always under siege by government intervention.

[clambake]

superpowers should not be confused with democracies.

[Winehole23]

I would say that the free market was "discredited" by: (1) the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act; (2) FDR's New Deal; and (3) the Second World War. People have been fighting to bring it back ever since, with mixed results.

Smoot-Hawley made the election of FDR inevitable, and FDR's New Deal was basically a failure that was unfairly credited with solving our economic problems after our entry into the Second World War.

In other words, true free market capitalists would have continued to trade freely in the face of economic troubles. But Hoover blinked, signed Smoot-Hawley, and the economy turned into a pile of shit. People got scared, turned to the government for help, and we got FDR. Our collective allergy to recessions is the single biggest reason why the free market is always under siege by government intervention.I basically agree with this gloss, doobs. But it's hard to resist the conclusion that the Bush Administration, with a big assist from the US Congress, kicked free trade into its grave.

[ChumpDumper]

The New Deal did its job of staving off a second civil war.

The infallibility of the market is a long dead myth. People are extremely innovative in finding new ways to fuck it up.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

the new deal just prolonged the depression here. nothing more. nothing less.

[ChumpDumper]

It did quite a bit more.

[MannyIsGod]

The bullshit that that the New Deal prolonged the depression has been debunked time after time after time. When I hear people parrot that bullshit, its pretty easy to discern how misinformed they are.

Then again, look at the sources of that spew in this thread.

[Winehole23]

The New Deal did its job of staving off a second civil war.Very likely, yes. There are good political and moral justifications for the New Deal.


The infallibility of the market is a long dead myth. People are extremely innovative in finding new ways to fuck it up.I'm not a subscriber to the myth. The government is the only institution big enough to kick big business in the nuts when it gets out of line.

[doobs]

The bullshit that that the New Deal prolonged the depression has been debunked time after time after time. When I hear people parrot that bullshit, its pretty easy to discern how misinformed they are.

Then again, look at the sources of that spew in this thread.

Tell us about it, Manny the Economist. After all, you're so fucking smart and well-informed.

[Winehole23]

The bullshit that that the New Deal prolonged the depression has been debunked time after time after time. When I hear people parrot that bullshit, its pretty easy to discern how misinformed they are.

Then again, look at the sources of that spew in this thread.The claim that the New Deal prolonged the Great Depression is almost certainly a PFA talking point. But it is more nearly true to say that WWII pulled us out of the Depression, than the New Deal.

[MannyIsGod]

Tell us about it, Manny the Economist. After all, you're so fucking smart and well-informed.

Too lazy to look it up yourself?

[johnsmith]

Tell us about it, Manny the Economist. After all, you're so fucking smart and well-informed.

Manny is an expert at the googles.

[Winehole23]

For Manny: http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2009/01/02/sirota_fdr_depression/

[Winehole23]

For doobs: http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/FDR-s-Policies-Prolonged-Depression-5409.aspx?RelNum=5409

[doobs]

The New Deal did its job of staving off a second civil war.

I pretty much agree with this. I would say, more narrowly, that the New Deal may have been a necessary evil to stave off the threat of America becoming a fascist or communist country. That is sufficient justification, given the circumstances of the 1930s.

So, yes, I think the New Deal may have been a political necessity in the 1930s. But beyond that, as a matter of economics, its price controls and mandates and rigid labor standards and substantial government ownership are exactly what you don't want to do in a weakened economy. I don't think our current economic situation is so perilous that we need this kind of government intervention; smart long-term economic policy would still be the wiser course of action.

[doobs]

Too lazy to look it up yourself?

No. You said "debunked." Saying something is "debunked" means it has been proven to be false. So tell me about it.

[Winehole23]

For the record, I'm a big fan of FDR's bank holiday, the FDIC, Glass-Steagall and what all FDR did to stabilize American finance in the 1930's. Without the financial stability brought by the New Deal, the depression itself might have been much, much worse.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

The bullshit that that the New Deal prolonged the depression has been debunked time after time after time. When I hear people parrot that bullshit, its pretty easy to discern how misinformed they are.

Then again, look at the sources of that spew in this thread.then explain why we were the last country to come out of the great depression.

[ChumpDumper]

then explain why we were the last country to come out of the great depression.What was the order of countries coming out of the depression?

[Winehole23]

then explain why we were the last country to come out of the great depression.Link, please?

[Viva Las Espuelas]

What was the order of countries coming out of the depression?


Link, please?


Too lazy to look it up yourself?

[ChumpDumper]

Didn't find the order with the US at the very end.

Surely you have the link.

[Winehole23]

I don't think our current economic situation is so perilous that we need this kind of government intervention; smart long-term economic policy would still be the wiser course of action.Agree with all but the first clause.

What makes you so sanguine that government help is unwarranted? This is 100% contrary to what Wall Street and even most conservatives are saying by now. What assures you that the danger isn't so great?

[doobs]

Agree with all but the first clause.

What makes you so sanguine that government help is unwarranted? This is 100% contrary to what Wall Street and even most conservatives are saying by now. What assures you that the danger isn't so great?

"This kind of government intervention"--I was referring to the New Deal and its inapplicability to our current economic situation. To me, the main justification for most of the New Deal is that it was necessary to keep people from voting communists or fascists into office. That kind of political and social unrest is not a real problem today. That's what I meant, at least.

[RandomGuy]

Nice touch on the reasoning for the cash giveaway proposed by Obama.

Hey, it worked for Paulson... :rolleyes

It worked for Bush to get us into Iraq. ;)

[Winehole23]

It worked for Bush to get us into Iraq. ;)The Patriot Act is another example.

[jack sommerset]

I don't get it. I like it the way it is. I have my own company,my wife has a good job and can get another one any time she wants and the prices are down on everything. I say leave it alone! Fuck, gas prices were over 4 bucks 6 months ago. That was ridiculous. I am looking forward buying a home in June. I know I will get a house thats is worth what it really is.

Seriously I never understood (more often than not) why a house that was 25 years old more expensive then a house 1 year old. Here in Dallas people moved and are moving north becuase you get more house for ur cash and a much better house. Now I can move closer to Dallas and actually not get ripped off on a house. Plus with a old house you have to spend money updating it. And everyone I know seems to be happy just like me. All that spending is going to do is make rich people rich again and jack the prices up once again.

[Winehole23]

http://seekingalpha.com/article/83216-u-s-housing-market-forecast-2008-2010

seekingalpha says another 11% down by the end of 2010.

Nouriel Roubini thinks the down leg in residential real estate could be another 25-30%.

If you've got large cash positions and not much debt, you could do alright. Recession/depression is definitely a rich get richer proposition if your wealth isn't overleveraged.

[SnakeBoy]

I don't get it. I like it the way it is. I have my own company,my wife has a good job and can get another one any time she wants and the prices are down on everything. I say leave it alone! Fuck, gas prices were over 4 bucks 6 months ago. That was ridiculous. I am looking forward buying a home in June. I know I will get a house thats is worth what it really is.

Seriously I never understood (more often than not) why a house that was 25 years old more expensive then a house 1 year old. Here in Dallas people moved and are moving north becuase you get more house for ur cash and a much better house. Now I can move closer to Dallas and actually not get ripped of on a house. Plus with a old house you have to spend money updating it. And everyone I know seems to be happy just like me. All that spending is going to do is make rich people rich again and jack the prices up once again.

Todays economy is primarily based on the idea that the value of things such as houses will only go up because we will always spend more and more and more money and when we run out of money we will simply borrow money and spend then borrow more and spend it etc etc.

This works fine as long as we cooperate with the ponzi scheme but now we have decided we would rather save some money and not be in debt. That is why they can't just leave it alone since the house of cards collapses without an ever increasing amount of money coming in. Since we are no longer going into debt just to keep spending more and more money the government will attempt to step in and spend it for us until we come to our senses and start spending the money we don't have again. Sounds like a perfect plan huh?:depressed

[jack sommerset]

Todays economy is primarily based on the idea that the value of things such as houses will only go up because we will always spend more and more and more money and when we run out of money we will simply borrow money and spend then borrow more and spend it etc etc.

This works fine as long as we cooperate with the ponzi scheme but now we have decided we would rather save some money and not be in debt. That is why they can't just leave it alone since the house of cards collapses without an ever increasing amount of money coming in. Since we are no longer going into debt just to keep spending more and more money the government will attempt to step in and spend it for you until you come to your senses and start spending the money you don't have again. Sounds like a perfect plan huh?:depressed


Nice

[Rockhound]

Let's have some fun and post up all the amazing places this money is reportedly going!

:rollin:rollin