Ludden: Rotation looks for rhythm

[Kori Ellis]

Rotation looks for rhythm
Web Posted: 02/28/2005 12:00 AM CST

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/basketball/nba/spurs/stories/MYSA022805.1E.cavaliers.ee3eb8bc.html

Johnny Ludden
Express-News Staff Writer

CLEVELAND — Devin Brown could have tried to drive to the rim. He could have passed. He even could have hoisted a 3-pointer and heard few complaints.

The Spurs would have preferred any of those options over what Brown did at the end of Saturday's third quarter: nothing.

As the final four seconds ticked away, Brown stood 25 feet from the basket with the ball in his hands. Trainer Will Sevening shouted the remaining time. Brown stood there. Spurs coach Gregg Popovich screamed at him. Brown stood there. Tim Duncan waved his arms to try to get Brown's attention.

By the time Brown realized what all the fuss was about, he could only half-shovel a pass that Memphis guard Bonzi Wells took from him as the quarter expired.

Popovich slammed the scorer's table in frustration. In the ensuing huddle, he delivered a blistering lesson on clock management.

The Spurs would like to keep their coach's blood pressure in check, and Popovich also would prefer to avoid more red-faced moments, particularly with the playoffs approaching. Which is one reason why Brown and Brent Barry have been on the floor a little longer than usual the past two games.

"I think in the last couple of weeks our bench, overall, hasn't been as good as it was at the beginning," Popovich said. "What we're trying to do is get them some playing time so they get in a rhythm."

As a result, Popovich has cut the minutes of Beno Udrih the past two games. Udrih didn't play Wednesday against Houston and was on the floor for only six minutes in Saturday's loss to Memphis.

Manu Ginobili or Barry run the offense if neither Udrih nor starter Tony Parker is on the floor. In the Spurs' motion offense, the three perimeter positions are fairly interchangeable, so it doesn't matter as much who brings the ball up court.

Popovich said the lineup allows him to use his experienced players at once. The team tried the unit in practice last week before using it for short stretches the past two games.

Saturday, the Spurs used the big-guard lineup for less than three minutes. Brown, Barry and Ginobili occupied the three perimeter positions to open the second quarter with Bruce Bowen in for Brown a minute later. In that time, the team had three turnovers and saw its four-point deficit balloon to 12.

Udrih replaced Ginobili with 9:12 left in the quarter and handed out four assists over the next three minutes. Parker played 22 of the 24 minutes in the second half with Udrih getting the remaining two.

Popovich said he hasn't lost confidence in Udrih — "For a first-year player coming into a situation where we wanted him to produce immediately, I think he's done a good job" — but he would like to stimulate more production out of his bench.

Neither Brown (30 percent) nor Barry (37.5 percent) has shot particularly well while splitting minutes in the eight games this month. But it's hard to settle into a rhythm with only three or four attempts a game.

"I don't come into a game expecting to play 15, 20 minutes," Brown said. "I just come in wanting to be ready to play no matter what coach says."

Despite his momentary lapse at the end of the third quarter, Brown used his 19 minutes productively, contributing eight points, three rebounds and two blocked shots. He also a played a handful of minutes of respectable defense on Rockets guard Tracy McGrady when he relieved Bowen on Wednesday.

The key, Brown said, is to not try to do too much.

"I'm out there trying to be the perfect player. You can't be like that," he said. "You just have to play.

"It's hard when you're trying to earn that trust and get back in the rotation."

Much of the Spurs' bench has been in flux. Robert Horry hadn't played in almost two weeks before Saturday because Popovich wanted him to rest his injured right leg. Malik Rose was traded Thursday, and his replacement, center Nazr Mohammed, still has to get acclimated to the team.

"Maybe we can find something where we get some continuity," Barry said. "But each of us just has to be ready to go out there and play our roles."

[Kori Ellis]

Popovich said he hasn't lost confidence in Udrih — "For a first-year player coming into a situation where we wanted him to produce immediately, I think he's done a good job" — but he would like to stimulate more production out of his bench.

Neither Brown (30 percent) nor Barry (37.5 percent) has shot particularly well while splitting minutes in the eight games this month. But it's hard to settle into a rhythm with only three or four attempts a game.

Like I said in a thread earlier today, Beno not getting minutes is not really about Beno. It's about trying to help Brent and Devin.

[timvp]

I do not understand Pop's thinking. He's not playing Udrih so he can let Brown and Barry play more and get in rhthym? Why not just pick one of them and roll with that?

If the move is also because Udrih needs rest, that would make sense. But so far, the non-point guard lineup has looked horrible in the last two games.

[ChumpDumper]

Welfare didn't work last year, but I guess these are the things you're reduced to working on at this record.

[timvp]

I don't know why Pop is trying to over-think what to do.

1) If Beno needs rest, place him on IR.
2) Decide if you want Brown or Barry to get most of the minutes. There will be time for only one of them in the playoffs, so you might as well start now and get used to it.
3) Play Nazr Mohammed. He's played basketball before. There is only so much you can learn on the sidelines.

[Kori Ellis]

2) Decide if you want Brown or Barry to get most of the minutes. There will be time for only one of them in the playoffs, so you might as well start now and get used to it.

I think he's deciding that but giving them both some more minutes. He has to shorten the rotation soon and I'm sure he will.

[cqsallie]

I do not understand Pop's thinking. He's not playing Udrih so he can let Brown and Barry play more and get in rhthym? Why not just pick one of them and roll with that?
If the move is also because Udrih needs rest, that would make sense. But so far, the non-point guard lineup has looked horrible in the last two games.

Here we go again!? Didn't we do this with Hedo to no avail?
I'm sure most of you have already read the New York Times today, but the sports page is worth revisiting. Apparently, M. Rose looks pretty good to the experts in the East:
"The newest Knicks were not the stars, but Rose did make an important contribution. He made his debut with 8 minutes 45 seconds remaining in the second quarter, entering to little applause before dominating the boards. He pulled down eight rebounds in the quarter, four of them on the offensive end. He had one field goal in three attempts and scored 2 points. While Rose was in the game, the Knicks increased their lead by 5 points.
Rose said he needed the quick start. "I was a little nervous out there," he said. "I didn't want to go in there and make a lot of mistakes. I'm glad I got that basket and glad we got the win."
Knicks Coach Herb Williams said: "Malik is tough. He did just what I expected him to do. He went in, rebounded, played good defense and he was aggressive. He did a real good job on Jermaine O'Neal, and he went to the offensive glass'."
Sometimes Pop reminds me of one of those kind-hearted people who adopt feral cats with the hope that they can make something of them through nurture. Months go by and the cat is still snarling, hissing, and striking out at everybody who comes near it. The cat may have it in him to be swell, but maybe it's just a feral cat, n'est pas? :oops

[T Park]

I think pop's problem is both Barry and Devin Brown have sucked out freakin loud.

[ChumpDumper]

I think pop's problem is both Barry and Devin Brown have sucked out freakin loud.If Beno ever plays again, maybe we'll see him with Parker more.

[timvp]

Next thing you know, Pop is going to bench Tim so that Nazr and Rasho get used to playing with each other.

Brilliant.

[exstatic]

:lol

[exstatic]

I think you should only "Try" this kind of shit in a blowout. God knows we'll have enough of them in the near future. They needed shooters on the floor last night. Devin was doing OK, but Barry was pretty much converting 02 into CO2, and his minutes would have been better put to Beno.

[timvp]

Exactly.

Why is Pop trying preseason antics in March?

[cqsallie]

I don't think Beno and Barry stink - far from it. Something's wrong, but these two players have the right stuff. Mayhaps we should be looking in another direction entirely...
Pop is a great coach, one of the best in the NBA, but he may have a problem when it comes to allowing a player to play his game. He almost did it with Manu. Duncan has become a pale ghost of David Robinson (the once and future king who hands over his realm to his knights). I'm sure that, seething beneath the surface, there is a dynamic which we're just not seeing. There's just something too even-handed, too disciplined about the Spurs.
Is it Pop? Is it the leadership role of the Big Easy who plays his game effortlessly - almost playing in his sleep? Where's the spark? Where's the aggression? Even Bowen, who everyone claims is such a hotty on defense, is an almost unnoticeable defensive player. It's as though the entire Spurs team were aboard a stealth bomber - and we all know that this isn't always a plus...

[Kori Ellis]

I don't think Beno and Barry stink - far from it. Something's wrong, but these two players have the right stuff. Mayhaps we should be looking in another direction entirely...
Pop is a great coach, one of the best in the NBA, but he may have a problem when it comes to allowing a player to play his game. He almost did it with Manu. Duncan has become a pale ghost of David Robinson (the once and future king who hands over his realm to his knights). I'm sure that, seething beneath the surface, there is a dynamic which we're just not seeing. There's just something too even-handed, too disciplined about the Spurs.
Is it Pop? Is it the leadership role of the Big Easy who plays his game effortlessly - almost playing in his sleep? Where's the spark? Where's the aggression? Even Bowen, who everyone claims is such a hotty on defense, is an almost unnoticeable defensive player. It's as though the entire Spurs team were aboard a stealth bomber - and we all know that this isn't always a plus...

:lol Is it that bad? The Spurs have the best record in the league.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Shit, the season's over, we're doomed! :lol

I think Pop is bored, knows what he has, so figures "what the hell, let's shake some shit up."

I dunno, it's the only way this whole Barry/Brown at the expesne of Udrih thing makes any sense.

[timvp]

Maybe TPark can come into this thread and bestow the true genius behind Pop's actions.

The good guys are never wrong.

[Kori Ellis]

I don't know. It makes sense to me. The Spurs will primarily go with a 3 swingman rotation in the playoffs with the fourth guy getting spot minutes. So, who is number 3 and who is number 4? We don't know because Devin and Brent have been both inconsistent and sucky. Pop gives them a boost by giving them more minutes while also giving Beno a rest. One of them will emerge (hopefully) as the more consistent player and then that guy will be number 3.

Am I wrong? crazy?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

If he's trying to figure out who's number three, why is he playing them together? Give each of them extensive run with Beno, he's who they'd more than likely be playing with anyway.

I guess I don't understand the whole "pick one" thing. To me it's all about matchups. If Bowen's in foul trouble or having a tough night defensively, you bring in Brown to give him a breather.

If we need more ball handling/shooting/offensive spark, you bring in Brent to get things going.

[Kori Ellis]

I think Beno is still recovering from being banged up.

But maybe this is the way to give them both enough playing time to see what they are going to do. One of them is going to be the odd man out to some extent. He wants one of them to emerge as a consistent producer. Obviously neither of them have been doing it in spot minutes.

[ChumpDumper]

Am I wrong? crazy?Not at all. It's coming close to decision time as far as the rotation goes. I'm sure alot of us want a platoon based on situations, but we'd probably have to get a new coach to bring that about.

[timvp]

Barry has been in this league a decade and with the Spurs for a good number of games. Devin Brown has been in or around the program for three years now. Pop should have an idea of who he's going to go with. Pick one.

How hard is it?

[Kori Ellis]

When both of them have been sucking ass, it's a difficult decision.

It's weird. The day has come when I understand Pop more than you do. :lol

[timvp]

:lol

I had a pretty good understanding of him until this recent Bench-The-Backup-Point-Guard-So-Our-Two-Backup-Shooting-Guards-Can-Struggle-Running-The-Show-But-I'll-Pick-Who-Is-Better-Anyways deal.

Maybe Pop should make Will Sevening sit out a couple games so the backup trainers are kept sharp. :rollin

[cqsallie]

:lol Is it that bad? The Spurs have the best record in the league.
Sounds goofy, eh? No, it's not that bad today - two losses in the SBC compared to many, many more by many, many other teams on their home courts. But, I'm not talking about today, I've been observing a trend (and you can't tell me you haven't as well) in which Duncan begins to sit more than play; Parker plays like a man on fire; Manu plays like Manu; Rasho is praised to the rafters every time he lifts his arms above his head; Bowen plays demon defense and little offense; the role players play like role players - i.e., like the place holders knitters use when weaving an intricate pattern.
Can you honestly say, Kori, that you haven't observed a downward trend in Tim's playing time and even in his desire?
I might be all wrong, but something just seems out of whack - and I say this even after a win. I saw the same thing when Tim came and Dave began turning over the team to him. :depressed

[Kori Ellis]

Can you honestly say, Kori, that you haven't observed a downward trend in Tim's playing time and even in his desire?

I don't see a downward trend in his desire. His minutes are slightly down this season but he's been banged up quite a bit (knee, hip, ankle) and it's a blessing to me that they can rest him a couple extra minutes and still win ball games. Come playoff time, Duncan will be well rested and healthy (*knocks on wood*) and logging 40+ minutes per game.

[T Park]

Maybe TPark can come into this thread and bestow the true genius behind Pop's actions.

The good guys are never wrong.


Didn't know I was the foremost expert on basketball.


Ill remember that the next time people call me T Fart, and want me run out of the forum.

[timvp]

Alright but can you explain this Beno benching situation.

Thanks.

[T Park]

Trying to get Barry and Brown to pull there heads out of there asses by giving them more playing time.

He knows what he has in Udrih, and doesn't know if he can depend on Barry or Brown yet.


IMO, Brent Barry has been a huge dissapointment.

30% shooting, quite a bit of the time, just standing out on the perimiter not wanting to do shit, just passing the ball and such.

[ChumpDumper]

Could be he's trying to see if he can actually run the big three guard lineup to create some mismatches. God knows we're getting some laid on us.

[T Park]

Don't know what team would go "big" guard on teh spurs.


I could see detroit going Billups Arroyo Hamilton

or Miami Wade Jones Jones


but those arent "big" guard lineups.

[ChumpDumper]

I'm not saying other teams would do that, I'm saying Pop might be seeing if he can create mismatches with a big guard lineup with the Spurs. Could also be a hedge in case Beno and Parker happen to suck at the same time.

Most other teams can get a mismatch on the Spurs by having a SF over 6'8".

[MannyIsGod]

He's just toying around. God knows these guys have no motivation to do shit right now.

I think part of Pop wants to go with Devin for the greater defense, but Part of him wants to go with Barry because of his hardon for veteran ball players. I don't think he can make a decision at this point, and he sees no harm in benching Beno.

I see harm. I see games slipping in a close home court advandtage race. And homecourt matters to the Spurs, so these March games shouldn't be taken so damn lightly.

I for one am hoping for Barry to come out and become the better option. He's shown flashes of it, but he's lacked consitency all year long. At some point soon, it's going to become nessecary to just pick someone and stick with them. That may be the best way to get someone into rythmn at this point.

[T Park]

I wish it would be barry too, but like you said, hell have a couple good games, then the third, hell act like he has no clue whats going on.

[Solid D]

Pop = stereo guy playing with the knobs, even though the volume, balance and fade are just fine. :hat

[Solid D]

^ The above was just a joke, ya'll.

[Hook Dem]

^ The above was just a joke, ya'll.
Maybe not as much as you think!

[Blazer16]

Hey y'all, didn't want to start another thread if I didn't have to, and it might be kind of early, but whose going to be left off the playoff roster?

[Spurminator]

I liked Devin better when he didn't know if he was going to play at all. He seems to have regressed since it became clear that he would almost always get 10-20 minutes per game.

Or maybe we're just noticing his faults more because we expect more from him.

[TwoHandJam]

I liked Devin better when he didn't know if he was going to play at all. He seems to have regressed since it became clear that he would almost always get 10-20 minutes per game.

Or maybe we're just noticing his faults more because we expect more from him.
I don't think so. He's definitely gotten worse. He looks very indecisive on the court lately. It seem like he's trying not to make a mistake instead of just playing the game.

Every player that plays for Pop seems to have to pass the "wrath of Pop" test. Some struggle and make it through Pop's tirades and become regulars (Tim, Tony, Manu, Bruce... ) and others can really suffer (at times) from the anxiety of trying to play ball his way (Devin, Rasho, Barry).

I really hope these guys can persevere and make it to the "other side" because once you stay in Pop's doghouse too long, there are a limited number of outcomes.

1) You get benched and/or traded.
2) Your confidence takes a hit and your game suffers (see Daniels, Antonio).
3) You turn into a role player with an extremely narrow focus on something you do well, squandering some other aspects of your game. (see Barry, Brent)

Pop is a great coach but sometimes I wonder if he really maximizes the talent of all his players. It seems that if you're not incredibly mentally tough, you can get bulldozed in his system. Brent Barry for example is a guy who averaged something like 11pts/6ast shooting 50% last year and the guy is turning into a spot up shooter under Pop. How much of this is Pop's doing?

[Rick Von Braun]

Or maybe we're just noticing his faults more because we expect more from him.
Bingo! :spin

[Spurminator]

His larger role probably also came with a new set of guidelines from the coaching staff... Before, when he came in, it was usually garbage minutes, or the team was desperate for some kind of scoring, so Devin had more freedom. Now that he has to play within a scheme, he's having trouble adapting. Pop could stand to loosen the reigns a bit on he and Barry and let them play a little more within their comfort zones.

[boutons]

"we expect more from him"

Devin's own performances last May and before Christmas defined those expectations.

[Jimcs50]

Free Beno!!!

[Slo spurs fan]

Free Beno!!!

Play him or he will go FAT again! :lol

[bigbendbruisebrother]

I do not understand Pop's thinking. He's not playing Udrih so he can let Brown and Barry play more and get in rhthym? Why not just pick one of them and roll with that?

If the move is also because Udrih needs rest, that would make sense. But so far, the non-point guard lineup has looked horrible in the last two games.

Agreed. Why does he feel the need to sacrifice games in order to put guys at the point who are not true point guards (especially when we have two kick-ass point guards). I also disagree with the notion stated in the article that it doesn't matter who brings the ball up; that's bullshit. When Devin and Brent came in together in the second we were down four; when they left we were down 12. I know we're 42-13, but every game counts. Regardless of the great record, there are four teams within five games of us. Cut the tinkering Pop and go for wins. Save your tinkering for practice.

[bigbendbruisebrother]

If he's trying to figure out who's number three, why is he playing them together? Give each of them extensive run with Beno, he's who they'd more than likely be playing with anyway.

I guess I don't understand the whole "pick one" thing. To me it's all about matchups. If Bowen's in foul trouble or having a tough night defensively, you bring in Brown to give him a breather.

If we need more ball handling/shooting/offensive spark, you bring in Brent to get things going.

I agree. It doesn't make sense to play them together unless neccesity dictates it.