Fourth Quarter Decisions in Today's Game...Regarding Manu Ginobili

[greens]

First of all, awesome win!

Amazing last shot by Mason!

Exciting game all around!

What I'm wondering about are the fourth quarter ball possession decisions. Manu was having one of his very best games since coming back from the injury. He was going crazy and feeling his groove all game long.

My question is WHY didn't he get any type of ball possessions during his usual clutch time in the fourth quarter? Usually even if Manu is not having his best game, the ball tends to be in his hands. Yet, today, even though he was having an incredible game, the ball was not in his hands.

Was that part of Pop's strategy to sort of go more to Tim and Tony instead of Manu? If so, why would he choose such a strategy if you know that one of your best players is going off at the right time and is having an incredible game?

It seems like the game got extremely close during that stretch of time with tons of the Spurs players making errors left and right. And at that time, I would have liked for Manu to at least have more possessions of the ball. Even if he gets fouled, he's an excellent FT shooter.

I was just surprised to see Manu barely touching the ball in the last few crucial clutch time minutes that basically made the game so close. I know that Kobe was guarding him the whole time, but he was also guarding him before when he was going nuts on him, too.

Anyway, any thoughts as to why the ball was not in his hands? Just curious.

[mVp]

Kobe was chasing him all over the place in the 4th...

[greens]

Kobe was chasing him all over the place in the 4th...


Yeah, and Kobe is an excellent defender especially when he's mad.

But the thing is that Kobe was all over Manu in the prior quarters when Manu was just getting hot and going nuts.

I think in the second quarter right at the very end in the last few minutes, it became a Manu vs Kobe game with both of the trading shots left and right.

And Manu had the possessions of the ball during that time even with Kobe chasing him all over the place.

Yet, in the fourth quarter with the same scenario, I'm not sure that Manu even touched the ball more than twice. It was a little bit strange.

Each time that I've seen Manu in such a zone, the ball was always in his hands in all the other prior games, regardless if three defenders were even on him. When he goes off like that, rarely anyone can stop him. Even if they send two or three defenders on him.

[Hemotivo]

put a couple of screens and the ball is in manu's hands...
the thing is, manu was really tired at the end of the first half and TP+TD were in the game too.

[ClingingMars]

lots of ball denial by kobe

-Mars

[greens]

put a couple of screens and the ball is in manu's hands...
the thing is, manu was really tired at the end of the first half and TP+TD were in the game too.

Oh you're right. I didn't even consider that he might be exhausted.

I think he said that during the interview after the first half.

So maybe it was tiredness.

Yeah, I mean of course, you'd want the ball in Timmy and Tony's hands. But I think the chances are better if you distribute between the three main players so that you can keep your opponents guessing.

[timvp]

Pop has opted to put the ball in Parker's hands in clutch situations this year more often than not. Parker has responded with some of the best clutch stats in the NBA. Plus tonight Manu looked a little winded in the fourth, which is expected after all the energy he used in the first three quarters.

As the season wears on, we'll probably see a shift in Pop's playcalling in clutch situations. The last few seasons it's been all Manu, all the time in those situations ... so yeah, it's a pretty big switch. If Parker cools off in the clutch, we could see it switch back to Manu. Even if Parker stays hot in the clutch, we'll probably eventually see more of a 50/50 split between Parker and Manu.

Either way, this time where Parker has the ball in the clutch is good for his overall growth as a player and should help give the Spurs more options in late game situations.

[Hemotivo]

ginobili is having the training camp in reg. season games

I think Finley is the key for SAS, if he can contribute with points along with mason, the spurs just need defense...

[2centsworth]

Manu is not all the way back. Old Manu could heat up to a point where he couldn't miss. This version of Manu is missing a lot of daggers. Lets give him time, because for the first time in about 8 months he is healthy.

[Hemotivo]

If Parker cools off in the clutch, we could see it switch back to Manu. Even if Parker stays hot in the clutch, we'll probably eventually see more of a 50/50 split between Parker and Manu.


TP is playin' great, really great bball. tonite a couple of plays late in the game went wrong but i think he's more "mature"... pop should take advantage of fisher bc derek was tired and he's the best laker right now (besides kobe)...

[Kori Ellis]

The Lakers tightened their D on Manu and Tony in the 4th. That's why they both didn't do much after playing well through 3. Manu was 1-for-3 in the 4th with 2 turnovers and Tony was 1-for-2 in the 4th with a turnover. You gotta give some credit to Lakers D.

Fortunately for the Spurs, Tim and Mason came up big late.

[greens]

Pop has opted to put the ball in Parker's hands in clutch situations this year more often than not. Parker has responded with some of the best clutch stats in the NBA. Plus tonight Manu looked a little winded in the fourth, which is expected after all the energy he used in the first three quarters.

As the season wears on, we'll probably see a shift in Pop's playcalling in clutch situations. The last few seasons it's been all Manu, all the time in those situations ... so yeah, it's a pretty big switch. If Parker cools off in the clutch, we could see it switch back to Manu. Even if Parker stays hot in the clutch, we'll probably eventually see more of a 50/50 split between Parker and Manu.

Either way, this time where Parker has the ball in the clutch is good for his overall growth as a player and should help give the Spurs more options in late game situations.




Thanks so much for the long explanation. Pop does have a tendency to test out different combinations and options. And you are right that if they prepare more players for the clutch situations, that's good for the team over all to have more options. So then it was basically more of Pop's decision.

What are TP's clutch stats so far this season, by the way? I know that Mason had been doing good in the clutch with his last second shots. But I wasn't too sure about TP's stats in those regards.

In the last few minutes of the game, though, I also saw Timmy as being one of the main and crucial ball handlers, as well. It was honestly just a little odd for me to see Manu not getting the opportunity to touch the ball at all. You've basically said it, we've all been used to seeing him be the main ball handler in close situations that it's a little strange to see him not in that position lately. Especially since Manu had his best season as a Spur last year and basically handled all the clutch situations for the team.

But yes, it's an excellent opportunity for personal growth as a player for TP. Except, I think that TP is already an excellent player who has years of experience in playing in close and tense last second situations in the game. He didn't have the best game today, but I think he has had a ton of excellent clutch moments.

[2centsworth]

Kori I'm still having a hard time figuring how Tony was only credited with one turnover. I remember the pass out of bounds with one second and the two bad passes to Duncan.

As far as Manu, all I remember late were those brick shot 3s.

[pawe]

lots of ball denial by kobe

-Mars

Yes.
And that would take away a possible foul being called because of the Kobe superstar status.

[Kori Ellis]

Kori I'm still having a hard time figuring how Tony was only credited with one turnover. I remember the pass out of bounds with one second and the two bad passes to Duncan.

As far as Manu, all I remember late were those brick shot 3s.

The shot clock violation (which was mostly Tony's fault, but also Laker D) is a team turnover. So I guess credit him for 2.

Like I said, Manu and Tony didn't do anything in the 4th but we should give the Lakers defense some credit. And it shouldn't matter anyway. I don't get why Spurs fans care so much about who puts the ball in the basket, as long as the Spurs get the W. If Udoka and Vaughn each went for 25 in a win, I'd be happy. But some fans would be whining (I'm not referencing the original poster in this thread) that Manu and Tony didn't get touches. :lol

[Hemotivo]

they need to put finley and mason on the same side of the court, the spurs try that play just once...

[ducks]

Either way, this time where Parker has the ball in the clutch is good for his overall growth as a player and should help give the Spurs more options in late game situations.



I agree with timvp
it also will give spurs another option in playoffs
tp will have more practice

[greens]

The Lakers tightened their D on Manu and Tony in the 4th. That's why they both didn't do much after playing well through 3. Manu was 1-for-3 in the 4th with 2 turnovers and Tony was 1-for-2 in the 4th with a turnover. You gotta give some credit to Lakers D.

Fortunately for the Spurs, Tim and Mason came up big late.


From what I basically saw, it was Kobe basically guarding Manu one on one.

The Lakers D was indeed pretty good late in the game while the Spurs D suffered in the fourth. That's something that Pop will have to work on.

TP had one turnover? Do the couple of bad passes to Timmy count as turnovers or more of Tim's errors? I don't know all the specifics in terms of how turnovers are counted and such.

And that shot by Mason was amazing. I wonder what his clutch stats are at this point. He's an excellent addition to the team.

Tim's stats were also good in the game with his assists number and points as was Manu's stats, too.

[timvp]

What are TP's clutch stats so far this season, by the way? I know that Mason had been doing good in the clutch with his last second shots. But I wasn't too sure about TP's stats in those regards.

Clutch Stats - Per 48 Minutes
Parker: 42.7 points on 56.9%
Duncan: 26.8 points on 46.8%
Ginobili: 24.0 points on 37.0%
Mason: 20.9 points on 50.0%
Finley: 7.0 points on 30.8%
Bowen: 2.8 points on 100%

[greens]

If Udoka and Vaughn each went for 25 in a win, I'd be happy. But some fans would be whining (I'm not referencing the original poster in this thread) that Manu and Tony didn't get touches. :lol

Oh, I love the win. I honestly just thought it was kind of odd after seeing Manu usually be the closer to sort of not be even much involved in the last few minutes of the game whether in the passing of the ball or anything. I thought that perhaps Pop came up with a couple of new strategies or something like that.

Kind of like I was wondering why Bruce wasn't much in the game. Even Kobe called Bruce the best defender that he's been up against. Yet, we didn't see much playing time. Even after the whole "chair" thing early in the game!

[greens]

Clutch Stats - Per 48 Minutes
Parker: 42.7 points on 56.9%
Duncan: 26.8 points on 46.8%
Ginobili: 24.0 points on 37.0%
Mason: 20.9 points on 50.0%
Finley: 7.0 points on 30.8%
Bowen: 2.8 points on 100%


Wow. Pretty good. Thanks for posting the data!

[hater]

Manu threw it away 2 straight times in the 4th. Parker threw it away 3 times in the 4th. Finley missed 3 wide open jumpers in the 4th.

If not for Duncan + Mason in the 4th. We'd have lost BIG TIME

Manu, finley and Parker (not to mention, Pop) are all to blame for the 4th quarter meltdown

[ducks]

kori posted one turnover for tp
who is right?

[DAF86]

Kobe was overplaying him, Manu didn't try hard enough to get open and Pop didn't draw anything speciall to get him the ball.

[DAF86]

kori posted one turnover for tp
who is right?

Officially he had 1 TO but he made two consecutives bad passes to Duncan's feet that must had been counted on Tim's line.

[greens]

Manu didn't try hard enough to get open and Pop didn't draw anything speciall to get him the ball.


Yeah, it's like Manu wasn't involved much at all in the last few minutes of the game, which is a bit odd.

[mVp]

Clutch Stats - Per 48 Minutes
Parker: 42.7 points on 56.9%
Duncan: 26.8 points on 46.8%
Ginobili: 24.0 points on 37.0%
Mason: 20.9 points on 50.0%
Finley: 7.0 points on 30.8%
Bowen: 2.8 points on 100%

Those are some good numbers... but anyway, if it comes down to a game winning shot, I want the ball on Mason's hands... Mase FTW all the way.

[Yorae]

All in all, thank god we have rmj. That's one more man to guard for the opposing team.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Kobe was sticking to Manu like whit on rice in the fourth. Manu was practically shut down. In fact, rarely did I see Tony with an opening for a pass to Manu. It was always blocked and Manu was not doing much to rid himself of the cover.

[Solid D]

Manu did spring loose from Kobe and score off a ball screen there but Kobe did guard Manu on the arc well. It was more about how the Lakers were playing the screen/rolls with Parker and Duncan in the 4th. They sagged the Big to cut off the drive and when Timmy rolled, he did so tentatively without holding his hand up to give TP something to throw to.

Don't get me wrong, Timmy was good in a lot of ways. Duncan almost had a triple-double, but in the last 8 minutes of the game after Hill knocked down a jumper for their 100th point, things went to mush offensively. The Lakers helped create the mush.

When Parker came back in, Tim either needed to roll strong or pick and pop. He did neither. There were a couple of plays there where TP 1) couldn't get past a very active and long Ariza, and 2) he completely flubbed a pass on a baseline drive when he felt he needed to exploit the mismatch on Josh Powell off the switch.

Ariza on Parker in combination with a sagging D, really turned out to be a nice ploy by Cleamons and Jackson. Also credit the Spurs' shot clock or operator for running the shot clock for 2 or 3 seconds before the ball was inbounded after Hill had just put the Spurs up by 11 with 8 minutes remaining. The stoppage of play got Kobe back in the game and then Pop decided to take Hill out. That unplanned timeout became a breath of fresh air the Lakers needed.

What a great game, though! This game was so evenly played by both teams, it's almost a shame there had to be a loser. I said, "almost". :smokin

[polandprzem]

Manu did spring loose from Kobe and score off a ball screen there but Kobe did guard Manu on the arc well. It was more about how the Lakers were playing the screen/rolls with Parker and Duncan in the 4th. They sagged the Big to cut off the drive and when Timmy rolled, he did so tentatively without holding his hand up to give TP something to throw to.

Don't get me wrong, Timmy was good in a lot of ways. Duncan almost had a triple-double, but in the last 8 minutes of the game after Hill knocked down a jumper for their 100th point, things went to mush offensively. The Lakers helped create the mush.

When Parker came back in, Tim either needed to roll strong or pick and pop. He did neither. There were a couple of plays there where TP 1) couldn't get past a very active and long Ariza, and 2) he completely flubbed a pass on a baseline drive when he felt he needed to exploit the mismatch on Josh Powell off the switch.

Ariza on Parker in combination with a sagging D, really turned out to be a nice ploy by Cleamons and Jackson. Also credit the Spurs' shot clock or operator for running the shot clock for 2 or 3 seconds before the ball was inbounded after Hill had just put the Spurs up by 11 with 8 minutes remaining. The stoppage of play got Kobe back in the game and then Pop decided to take Hill out. That unplanned timeout became a breath of fresh air the Lakers needed.

What a great game, though! This game was so evenly played by both teams, it's almost a shame there had to be a loser. I said, "almost". :smokin
Good points :tu

I want to add that the spurs do not have something hat works 100%. In that game even 4-down was not effective. Tim looked lost out there. And this is not the first time when a strategy of playing Tim 1-1 is a good strategy.

[EricB]

Good points :tu

I want to add that the spurs do not have something hat works 100%. In that game even 4-down was not effective. Tim looked lost out there. And this is not the first time when a strategy of playing Tim 1-1 is a good strategy.


Uh the the two baskets prior to Masons were on Duncan and 4 down...

[polandprzem]

Uh the the two baskets prior to Masons were on Duncan and 4 down...

I'm talking about situations that were in that game.
I remember one of the 4-down when Fish went to double Tim an a soon as Tim grabbed the ball Fish went to a free man and LA were quick to rotate.
This caused no adventage on spurs part all game long.
Well there were two situation when Tim somehow managd to finish.
But all in all Tim must to read better that kind situations against teams like LA.
They gonna occasionaly double Tim, but they rather stay phisical with him with one defender.
Another thing is that Tim was not in good positions. He didn't got much balls really down low.

[smeagol]

Manu did spring loose from Kobe and score off a ball screen there but Kobe did guard Manu on the arc well. It was more about how the Lakers were playing the screen/rolls with Parker and Duncan in the 4th. They sagged the Big to cut off the drive and when Timmy rolled, he did so tentatively without holding his hand up to give TP something to throw to.

Don't get me wrong, Timmy was good in a lot of ways. Duncan almost had a triple-double, but in the last 8 minutes of the game after Hill knocked down a jumper for their 100th point, things went to mush offensively. The Lakers helped create the mush.

When Parker came back in, Tim either needed to roll strong or pick and pop. He did neither. There were a couple of plays there where TP 1) couldn't get past a very active and long Ariza, and 2) he completely flubbed a pass on a baseline drive when he felt he needed to exploit the mismatch on Josh Powell off the switch.

Ariza on Parker in combination with a sagging D, really turned out to be a nice ploy by Cleamons and Jackson. Also credit the Spurs' shot clock or operator for running the shot clock for 2 or 3 seconds before the ball was inbounded after Hill had just put the Spurs up by 11 with 8 minutes remaining. The stoppage of play got Kobe back in the game and then Pop decided to take Hill out. That unplanned timeout became a breath of fresh air the Lakers needed.

What a great game, though! This game was so evenly played by both teams, it's almost a shame there had to be a loser. I said, "almost". :smokin

I want to be able to analyze games the same way you do . . . instead my analysis level is closer to sequ's and duck's . . . :depressed

[polandprzem]

get a grip smeagol

[angelbelow]

i thought he made a few poor decisions early in the 4th too, which lead to that brutal laker comeback. im not saying that he doesnt deserve those touches but perhaps he just had to calm down a bit. he looked to be in much better control as the quarter went on.

[buttsR4rebounding]

Manu threw it away 2 straight times in the 4th. Parker threw it away 3 times in the 4th. Finley missed 3 wide open jumpers in the 4th.

If not for Duncan + Mason in the 4th. We'd have lost BIG TIME

Manu, finley and Parker (not to mention, Pop) are all to blame for the 4th quarter meltdown

Especially Parker! He made a ton of terrible descisions in the 4th quarter. The Spurs losing their 11 point lead coincided exactly with Parker replacing Hill in the 4th. If he was charged w/ only one TO in the 4th quarter then Eva must be giving handjobs to the official scorer...that's 2 straight games Parker has been Mr. 4th quarter choke artist.

[Slippy]

It wasn't just the 4th quarter, count the 3rd as well. A lot of credit has to to Kobe's denial D but tactically it would of made sense to go to Manu with a few more plays to free him up. Kobe coming off 42min the previous night would of had to work harder on both ends and Manu was the hot hand.

Didn't help the spurs almost choked the game away there at the end. The biggest letdown was the Spurs team defense. There were some shocking mistakes and breakdowns through-out the game. You just wouldn't expect it towards the end for such an experienced team who have been closing out really good of late

[Slippy]

Ariza on Parker in combination with a sagging D, really turned out to be a nice ploy by Cleamons and Jackson. Also credit the Spurs' shot clock or operator for running the shot clock for 2 or 3 seconds before the ball was inbounded after Hill had just put the Spurs up by 11 with 8 minutes remaining. The stoppage of play got Kobe back in the game and then Pop decided to take Hill out. That unplanned timeout became a breath of fresh air the Lakers needed.




That was a momentum breaker. Lakers went on 11-2 run until Pop called time-out. Spurs seemed to lose their focus . I put it down to Phil playing his mind games at first then the commentators explained about the shot clock. Lakers took advantage of the unexpected stoppage, Spurs got nervous.

[Brazil]

Except for two or three useless and bashing posts, I enjoy reading this thread. For once we can talk about the TP game with some objectiveness.

TP has made a very good 1st, he lost his rythm in the 2 due to too much time on the bench (fouls trouble), came back well in the 3 and went for a couple of mistakes in the fourth. Overall it's a good game for him.

[my2sons]

Oh, I love the win. I honestly just thought it was kind of odd after seeing Manu usually be the closer to sort of not be even much involved in the last few minutes of the game whether in the passing of the ball or anything. I thought that perhaps Pop came up with a couple of new strategies or something like that.

Kind of like I was wondering why Bruce wasn't much in the game. Even Kobe called Bruce the best defender that he's been up against. Yet, we didn't see much playing time. Even after the whole "chair" thing early in the game!

More CIA pop, wanting to get offense from mason but also giving mase an opportunity to get some quality crunch time minutes on both ends of the court. Pop knows what he can get from bruce, won the game and is still able to manage minutes for the old guy.