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Winehole23
01-15-2009, 02:02 AM
How Many Divisions? (http://www.avnery-news.co.il/english/index.html)

by Uri Avnery

Nearly 70 years ago, in the course of World War II, a heinous crime was committed in the city of Leningrad. For more than a thousand days, a gang of extremists called "the Red Army" held the millions of the town's inhabitants hostage and provoked retaliation from the German Wehrmacht from inside the population centers. The Germans had no alternative but to bomb and shell the population and to impose a total blockade, which caused the death of hundreds of thousands.



Some time before that, a similar crime was committed in England. The Churchill gang hid among the population of London, misusing the millions of citizens as a human shield. The Germans were compelled to send their Luftwaffe and reluctantly reduce the city to ruins. They called it the Blitz.


This is the description that would now appear in the history books – if the Germans had won the war.


Absurd? No more than the daily descriptions in our media, which are being repeated ad nauseam: the Hamas terrorists use the inhabitants of Gaza as "hostages" and exploit the women and children as "human shields"; they leave us no alternative but to carry out massive bombardments, in which, to our deep sorrow, thousands of women, children, and unarmed men are killed and injured.
In this war, as in any modern war, propaganda plays a major role. The disparity between the forces, between the Israeli army – with its airplanes, gunships, drones, warships, artillery, and tanks – and the few thousand lightly armed Hamas fighters, is one to a thousand, perhaps one to a million. In the political arena, the gap between them is even wider. But in the propaganda war, the gap is almost infinite.


Almost all the Western media initially repeated the official Israeli propaganda line. They almost entirely ignored the Palestinian side of the story, not to mention the daily demonstrations of the Israeli peace camp. The rationale of the Israeli government ("The state must defend its citizens against the Qassam rockets") has been accepted as the whole truth. The view from the other side, that the Qassams are a retaliation for the siege that starves the one and a half million inhabitants of the Gaza Strip, was not mentioned at all.


Only when the horrible scenes from Gaza started to appear on Western TV screens did world public opinion gradually begin to change.


True, Western and Israeli TV channels showed only a tiny fraction of the dreadful events that appear 24 hours every day on al-Jazeera's Arabic channel, but one picture of a dead baby in the arms of its terrified father is more powerful than a thousand elegantly constructed sentences from the Israeli army spokesman. And that is what is decisive, in the end.


War – every war – is the realm of lies. Whether called propaganda or psychological warfare, everybody accepts that it is right to lie for one's country. Anyone who speaks the truth runs the risk of being branded a traitor.


The trouble is that propaganda is most convincing for the propagandist himself. And after you convince yourself that a lie is the truth and falsification reality, you can no longer make rational decisions.


An example of this process surrounds the most shocking atrocity of this war so far: the shelling of the UN Fakhura school in Jabaliya refugee camp.


Immediately after the incident became known throughout the world, the army "revealed" that Hamas fighters had been firing mortars from near the school entrance. As proof they released an aerial photo which indeed showed the school and the mortar. But within a short time the official army liar had to admit that the photo was more than a year old. In brief: a falsification.


Later the official liar claimed that "our soldiers were shot at from inside the school." Barely a day passed before the army had to admit to UN personnel that that was a lie, too. Nobody had shot from inside the school, and no Hamas fighters were inside the school, which was full of terrified refugees.
But the admission made hardly any difference anymore. By that time, the Israeli public was completely convinced that "they shot from inside the school," and TV announcers stated this as a simple fact.


So it went with the other atrocities. Every baby metamorphosed, in the act of dying, into a Hamas terrorist. Every bombed mosque instantly became a Hamas base, every apartment building an arms cache, every school a terror command post, every civilian government building a "symbol of Hamas rule." Thus the Israeli army retained its purity as the "most moral army in the world."
The truth is that the atrocities are a direct result of the war plan. This reflects the personality of Ehud Barak (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1052057.html) – a man whose way of thinking and actions are clear evidence of what is called "moral insanity," a sociopathic disorder.


The real aim (apart from gaining seats in the coming elections) is to terminate the rule of Hamas in the Gaza Strip. In the imagination of the planners, Hamas is an invader that has gained control of a foreign country. The reality is, of course, entirely different.


The Hamas movement won the majority of the votes in the eminently democratic elections that took place in the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip. It won because the Palestinians had come to the conclusion that Fatah's peaceful approach had gained precisely nothing from Israel – neither a freeze of the settlements, nor release of the prisoners, nor any significant steps toward ending the occupation and creating the Palestinian state. Hamas is deeply rooted in the population – not only as a resistance movement fighting the foreign occupier, like the Irgun (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/293947/Irgun-Zvai-Leumi) and the Stern Group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_%28group%29)in the past – but also as a political and religious body that provides social, educational, and medical services.


From the point of view of the population, the Hamas fighters are not a foreign body, but the sons of every family in the Strip and the other Palestinian regions. They do not "hide behind the population"; the population views them as their only defenders.


Therefore, the whole operation is based on erroneous assumptions. Turning life into living hell does not cause the population to rise up against Hamas, but on the contrary, it unites behind Hamas and reinforces its determination not to surrender. The population of Leningrad did not rise up against Stalin, any more than the Londoners rose up against Churchill.


He who gives the order for such a war with such methods in a densely populated area knows that it will cause dreadful slaughter of civilians. Apparently that did not touch him. Or he believed that "they will change their ways" and "it will sear their consciousness," so that in future they will not dare to resist Israel.


A top priority for the planners was the need to minimize casualties among the soldiers, knowing that the mood of a large part of the pro-war public would change if reports of such casualties came in. That is what happened in Lebanon Wars I and II.


This consideration played an especially important role because the entire war is a part of the election campaign. Ehud Barak, who gained in the polls in the first days of the war, knew that his ratings would collapse if pictures of dead soldiers filled the TV screens.


Therefore, a new doctrine was applied: to avoid losses among our soldiers by the total destruction of everything in their path. The planners were not only ready to kill 80 Palestinians to save one Israeli soldier, as has happened, but also 800. The avoidance of casualties on our side is the overriding commandment, which is causing record numbers of civilian casualties on the other side.


That means the conscious choice of an especially cruel kind of warfare – and that has been its Achilles heel.


A person without imagination, like Barak (his election slogan: "Not a Nice Guy, but a Leader"), cannot imagine how decent people around the world react to actions like the killing of whole extended families, the destruction of houses over the heads of their inhabitants, the rows of boys and girls in white shrouds ready for burial, the reports about people bleeding to death over days because ambulances are not allowed to reach them, the killing of doctors and medics on their way to save lives, the killing of UN drivers bringing in food. The pictures of the hospitals, with the dead, the dying, and the injured lying together on the floor for lack of space, have shocked the world. No argument has any force next to an image of a wounded little girl lying on the floor, twisting with pain and crying out, "Mama! Mama!"


The planners thought that they could stop the world from seeing these images by forcibly preventing press coverage. The Israeli journalists, to their shame, agreed to be satisfied with the reports and photos provided by the army spokesman, as if they were authentic news, while they themselves remained miles away from the events. Foreign journalists were not allowed in either, until they protested and were taken for quick tours in selected and supervised groups. But in a modern war, such a sterile, manufactured view cannot completely exclude all others – the cameras are inside the strip, in the middle of the hell, and cannot be controlled. Al-Jazeera broadcasts the pictures around the clock and reaches every home.
The battle for the TV screen is one of the decisive battles of the war.
Hundreds of millions of Arabs from Mauritania to Iraq, more than a billion Muslims from Nigeria to Indonesia see the pictures and are horrified. This has a strong impact on the war. Many of the viewers see the rulers of Egypt, Jordan, and the Palestinian Authority as collaborators with Israel in carrying out these atrocities against their Palestinian brothers.


The security services of the Arab regimes are registering a dangerous ferment among the peoples. Hosni Mubarak, the most exposed Arab leader because of his closing of the Rafah crossing in the face of terrified refugees, started to pressure the decision-makers in Washington, who until that time had blocked all calls for a cease-fire. These began to understand the menace to vital American interests in the Arab world and suddenly changed their attitude – causing consternation among the complacent Israeli diplomats.


People with moral insanity cannot really understand the motives of normal people and must guess their reactions. "How many divisions has the Pope?" Stalin sneered. "How many divisions have people of conscience?" Ehud Barak may well be asking.


As it turns out, they do have some. Not numerous. Not very quick to react. Not very strong and organized. But at a certain moment, when the atrocities overflow and masses of protesters come together, that can decide a war.
The failure to grasp the nature of Hamas has caused a failure to grasp the predictable results. Not only is Israel unable to win the war, Hamas cannot lose it.


Even if the Israeli army were to succeed in killing every Hamas fighter to the last man, even then Hamas would win. The Hamas fighters would be seen as the paragons of the Arab nation, the heroes of the Palestinian people, models for emulation by every youngster in the Arab world. The West Bank would fall into the hands of Hamas like a ripe fruit, Fatah would drown in a sea of contempt, the Arab regimes would be threatened with collapse.


If the war ends with Hamas still standing, bloodied but unvanquished, in face of the mighty Israeli military machine, it will look like a fantastic victory, a victory of mind over matter.


What will be seared into the consciousness of the world will be the image of Israel as a blood-stained monster, ready at any moment to commit war crimes and not prepared to abide by any moral restraints. This will have severe consequences for our long-term future, our standing in the world, our chance of achieving peace and quiet.


In the end, this war is a crime against ourselves too, a crime against the state of Israel.


Uri Avnery (http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/about/1177150070) is an Irgun veteran, writer, journalist and a founding member of Gush Shalom (http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/about/aims)

RandomGuy
01-15-2009, 12:24 PM
The failure to grasp the nature of Hamas has caused a failure to grasp the predictable results. Not only is Israel unable to win the war, Hamas cannot lose it.


Even if the Israeli army were to succeed in killing every Hamas fighter to the last man, even then Hamas would win. The Hamas fighters would be seen as the paragons of the Arab nation, the heroes of the Palestinian people, models for emulation by every youngster in the Arab world. The West Bank would fall into the hands of Hamas like a ripe fruit, Fatah would drown in a sea of contempt, the Arab regimes would be threatened with collapse.


If the war ends with Hamas still standing, bloodied but unvanquished, in face of the mighty Israeli military machine, it will look like a fantastic victory, a victory of mind over matter.


What will be seared into the consciousness of the world will be the image of Israel as a blood-stained monster, ready at any moment to commit war crimes and not prepared to abide by any moral restraints. This will have severe consequences for our long-term future, our standing in the world, our chance of achieving peace and quiet.


In the end, this war is a crime against ourselves too, a crime against the state of Israel.


Uri Avnery (http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/about/1177150070) is an Irgun veteran, writer, journalist and a founding member of Gush Shalom (http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/about/aims)

Yup. Israel lost this the second they started it.

This is where the black and white thinking of ideologues, in this case, right-wing, fails to meet the tests of reality.

Israel has lost any moral authority they had, and finally a lot of Westerners, and Americans in particular are finally realizing that Israel is not quite the shining democracy that its promoters claim it is.

I have long resented the strong Israeli lobby in the US government that forces us to act against our own long term interests to unfailingly support Israel.

The dangerous evangelicals that drive a lot of Republican policies in this regard (remember, Israel must exist for the 2nd coming of Christ or something like that) are nothing less than traitors in almost every sense of the word who place the good of Israel over the good of the US.

MeIII
01-15-2009, 12:28 PM
I'll take those traitors over the ones who use farce environmental doomsday to gain control over private business leading to the crippling of the economy for personal gain.

This country is ran by traitors.

Besides, Israel's flag looks pretty cool.

RandomGuy
01-15-2009, 12:41 PM
I'll take those traitors over the ones who use farce environmental doomsday to gain control over private business leading to the crippling of the economy for personal gain.

This country is ran by traitors.

Besides, Israel's flag looks pretty cool.

Ah yes, one man's freedom fighters is another's terrorists.

Salut!

sook
01-15-2009, 02:13 PM
it turns out these idiots learned nothing from destroying Lebanon.

Ignignokt
01-15-2009, 03:42 PM
How Many Divisions? (http://www.avnery-news.co.il/english/index.html)

by Uri Avnery

Nearly 70 years ago, in the course of World War II, a heinous crime was committed in the city of Leningrad. For more than a thousand days, a gang of extremists called "the Red Army" held the millions of the town's inhabitants hostage and provoked retaliation from the German Wehrmacht from inside the population centers. The Germans had no alternative but to bomb and shell the population and to impose a total blockade, which caused the death of hundreds of thousands.



Some time before that, a similar crime was committed in England. The Churchill gang hid among the population of London, misusing the millions of citizens as a human shield. The Germans were compelled to send their Luftwaffe and reluctantly reduce the city to ruins. They called it the Blitz.


This is the description that would now appear in the history books – if the Germans had won the war.


Absurd? No more than the daily descriptions in our media, which are being repeated ad nauseam: the Hamas terrorists use the inhabitants of Gaza as "hostages" and exploit the women and children as "human shields"; they leave us no alternative but to carry out massive bombardments, in which, to our deep sorrow, thousands of women, children, and unarmed men are killed and injured.
In this war, as in any modern war, propaganda plays a major role. The disparity between the forces, between the Israeli army – with its airplanes, gunships, drones, warships, artillery, and tanks – and the few thousand lightly armed Hamas fighters, is one to a thousand, perhaps one to a million. In the political arena, the gap between them is even wider. But in the propaganda war, the gap is almost infinite.


Almost all the Western media initially repeated the official Israeli propaganda line. They almost entirely ignored the Palestinian side of the story, not to mention the daily demonstrations of the Israeli peace camp. The rationale of the Israeli government ("The state must defend its citizens against the Qassam rockets") has been accepted as the whole truth. The view from the other side, that the Qassams are a retaliation for the siege that starves the one and a half million inhabitants of the Gaza Strip, was not mentioned at all.


Only when the horrible scenes from Gaza started to appear on Western TV screens did world public opinion gradually begin to change.


True, Western and Israeli TV channels showed only a tiny fraction of the dreadful events that appear 24 hours every day on al-Jazeera's Arabic channel, but one picture of a dead baby in the arms of its terrified father is more powerful than a thousand elegantly constructed sentences from the Israeli army spokesman. And that is what is decisive, in the end.


War – every war – is the realm of lies. Whether called propaganda or psychological warfare, everybody accepts that it is right to lie for one's country. Anyone who speaks the truth runs the risk of being branded a traitor.


The trouble is that propaganda is most convincing for the propagandist himself. And after you convince yourself that a lie is the truth and falsification reality, you can no longer make rational decisions.


An example of this process surrounds the most shocking atrocity of this war so far: the shelling of the UN Fakhura school in Jabaliya refugee camp.


Immediately after the incident became known throughout the world, the army "revealed" that Hamas fighters had been firing mortars from near the school entrance. As proof they released an aerial photo which indeed showed the school and the mortar. But within a short time the official army liar had to admit that the photo was more than a year old. In brief: a falsification.


Later the official liar claimed that "our soldiers were shot at from inside the school." Barely a day passed before the army had to admit to UN personnel that that was a lie, too. Nobody had shot from inside the school, and no Hamas fighters were inside the school, which was full of terrified refugees.
But the admission made hardly any difference anymore. By that time, the Israeli public was completely convinced that "they shot from inside the school," and TV announcers stated this as a simple fact.


So it went with the other atrocities. Every baby metamorphosed, in the act of dying, into a Hamas terrorist. Every bombed mosque instantly became a Hamas base, every apartment building an arms cache, every school a terror command post, every civilian government building a "symbol of Hamas rule." Thus the Israeli army retained its purity as the "most moral army in the world."
The truth is that the atrocities are a direct result of the war plan. This reflects the personality of Ehud Barak (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1052057.html) – a man whose way of thinking and actions are clear evidence of what is called "moral insanity," a sociopathic disorder.


The real aim (apart from gaining seats in the coming elections) is to terminate the rule of Hamas in the Gaza Strip. In the imagination of the planners, Hamas is an invader that has gained control of a foreign country. The reality is, of course, entirely different.


The Hamas movement won the majority of the votes in the eminently democratic elections that took place in the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip. It won because the Palestinians had come to the conclusion that Fatah's peaceful approach had gained precisely nothing from Israel – neither a freeze of the settlements, nor release of the prisoners, nor any significant steps toward ending the occupation and creating the Palestinian state. Hamas is deeply rooted in the population – not only as a resistance movement fighting the foreign occupier, like the Irgun (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/293947/Irgun-Zvai-Leumi) and the Stern Group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_%28group%29)in the past – but also as a political and religious body that provides social, educational, and medical services.


From the point of view of the population, the Hamas fighters are not a foreign body, but the sons of every family in the Strip and the other Palestinian regions. They do not "hide behind the population"; the population views them as their only defenders.


Therefore, the whole operation is based on erroneous assumptions. Turning life into living hell does not cause the population to rise up against Hamas, but on the contrary, it unites behind Hamas and reinforces its determination not to surrender. The population of Leningrad did not rise up against Stalin, any more than the Londoners rose up against Churchill.


He who gives the order for such a war with such methods in a densely populated area knows that it will cause dreadful slaughter of civilians. Apparently that did not touch him. Or he believed that "they will change their ways" and "it will sear their consciousness," so that in future they will not dare to resist Israel.


A top priority for the planners was the need to minimize casualties among the soldiers, knowing that the mood of a large part of the pro-war public would change if reports of such casualties came in. That is what happened in Lebanon Wars I and II.


This consideration played an especially important role because the entire war is a part of the election campaign. Ehud Barak, who gained in the polls in the first days of the war, knew that his ratings would collapse if pictures of dead soldiers filled the TV screens.


Therefore, a new doctrine was applied: to avoid losses among our soldiers by the total destruction of everything in their path. The planners were not only ready to kill 80 Palestinians to save one Israeli soldier, as has happened, but also 800. The avoidance of casualties on our side is the overriding commandment, which is causing record numbers of civilian casualties on the other side.


That means the conscious choice of an especially cruel kind of warfare – and that has been its Achilles heel.


A person without imagination, like Barak (his election slogan: "Not a Nice Guy, but a Leader"), cannot imagine how decent people around the world react to actions like the killing of whole extended families, the destruction of houses over the heads of their inhabitants, the rows of boys and girls in white shrouds ready for burial, the reports about people bleeding to death over days because ambulances are not allowed to reach them, the killing of doctors and medics on their way to save lives, the killing of UN drivers bringing in food. The pictures of the hospitals, with the dead, the dying, and the injured lying together on the floor for lack of space, have shocked the world. No argument has any force next to an image of a wounded little girl lying on the floor, twisting with pain and crying out, "Mama! Mama!"


The planners thought that they could stop the world from seeing these images by forcibly preventing press coverage. The Israeli journalists, to their shame, agreed to be satisfied with the reports and photos provided by the army spokesman, as if they were authentic news, while they themselves remained miles away from the events. Foreign journalists were not allowed in either, until they protested and were taken for quick tours in selected and supervised groups. But in a modern war, such a sterile, manufactured view cannot completely exclude all others – the cameras are inside the strip, in the middle of the hell, and cannot be controlled. Al-Jazeera broadcasts the pictures around the clock and reaches every home.
The battle for the TV screen is one of the decisive battles of the war.
Hundreds of millions of Arabs from Mauritania to Iraq, more than a billion Muslims from Nigeria to Indonesia see the pictures and are horrified. This has a strong impact on the war. Many of the viewers see the rulers of Egypt, Jordan, and the Palestinian Authority as collaborators with Israel in carrying out these atrocities against their Palestinian brothers.


The security services of the Arab regimes are registering a dangerous ferment among the peoples. Hosni Mubarak, the most exposed Arab leader because of his closing of the Rafah crossing in the face of terrified refugees, started to pressure the decision-makers in Washington, who until that time had blocked all calls for a cease-fire. These began to understand the menace to vital American interests in the Arab world and suddenly changed their attitude – causing consternation among the complacent Israeli diplomats.


People with moral insanity cannot really understand the motives of normal people and must guess their reactions. "How many divisions has the Pope?" Stalin sneered. "How many divisions have people of conscience?" Ehud Barak may well be asking.


As it turns out, they do have some. Not numerous. Not very quick to react. Not very strong and organized. But at a certain moment, when the atrocities overflow and masses of protesters come together, that can decide a war.
The failure to grasp the nature of Hamas has caused a failure to grasp the predictable results. Not only is Israel unable to win the war, Hamas cannot lose it.


Even if the Israeli army were to succeed in killing every Hamas fighter to the last man, even then Hamas would win. The Hamas fighters would be seen as the paragons of the Arab nation, the heroes of the Palestinian people, models for emulation by every youngster in the Arab world. The West Bank would fall into the hands of Hamas like a ripe fruit, Fatah would drown in a sea of contempt, the Arab regimes would be threatened with collapse.


If the war ends with Hamas still standing, bloodied but unvanquished, in face of the mighty Israeli military machine, it will look like a fantastic victory, a victory of mind over matter.


What will be seared into the consciousness of the world will be the image of Israel as a blood-stained monster, ready at any moment to commit war crimes and not prepared to abide by any moral restraints. This will have severe consequences for our long-term future, our standing in the world, our chance of achieving peace and quiet.


In the end, this war is a crime against ourselves too, a crime against the state of Israel.


Uri Avnery (http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/about/1177150070) is an Irgun veteran, writer, journalist and a founding member of Gush Shalom (http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/about/aims)

So this author thinks Hamas had no arab morale support before the invasion?

Winehole23
01-15-2009, 05:06 PM
So this author thinks Hamas had no arab morale support before the invasion?Where does he say so?

Supergirl
01-15-2009, 06:20 PM
the entire Palestinian-Israeli conflict is a lose-lose for both sides. the extremists on both sides are hell-bent on sabotaging any attempt at peace and ceasefire. And Hamas *IS* the extremist, so when you have them in charge in Gaza, you're pretty much fucked.

Winehole23
01-15-2009, 11:53 PM
If you (or I) were Palestinian (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1052057.html) http://wa-be1.www.haaretz.com/hasen/images/0.gif By Yossi Sarid http://wa-be1.www.haaretz.com/hasen/images/0.gif

This week I spoke with my students about the Gaza war, in the context of a class on national security. One student, who had expressed rather conservative, accepted opinions - that is opinions tending slightly to the right - succeeded in surprising me. Without any provocation on my part, he opened his heart and confessed: "If I were a young Palestinian," he said, "I'd fight the Jews fiercely, even by means of terror. Anyone who says anything different is telling you lies."

His remarks sounded familiar - I had already heard them before. Suddenly I remembered: About 10 years ago they were uttered by our defense minister, Ehud Barak. Haaretz journalist Gideon Levy had asked him then, as a candidate for prime minister, what he would do had he been born Palestinian and Barak replied frankly: "I would join a terror organization."

This is not my own answer; terrorism by individuals or organizations or states is always aimed at exacting casualties in a civilian population that has not drawn any blood. Not only is terror blind - consuming both the saint and the sinner - it also expands the circle of the hot-headed, whose blood rises to their brains: Our blood is on their heads, their blood is on our heads. And when an account of the blood of the innocent is opened, who can pay it in full, and when?

I hate all the terrorists in the world, whatever the purpose of their struggle. However, I support every active civil revolt against any occupation, and Israel too is among the despicable occupiers. Such revolt is both more just and more effective, and it does not extinguish one's spark of humanity. And perhaps I'm just too much of an old codger to be a terrorist.

http://wa-be1.www.haaretz.com/hasen/images/0.gif




But, and pay attention to this but, if a normative young person has a spontaneous answer that is different from mine, and that answer also escaped the mouth of an Israeli lieutenant general, then every individual must see himself as though his son is running with the wrong crowd. If
things were the other way around, our son-whom-we-loved would be a damned terrorist, almost certainly, because he is of the third and fourth generation of refugeehood and oppression, and whence cometh salvation? He has nothing to lose but his chains.

Whereas we, his mother and father, would be weeping for the departing son because he will never return to see the land of his birth and us, except in his photograph on the wall as a shahid, a martyr. Would we detain him before he carries out his plan? Would we be able to hold him back if we wanted to? Would we not understand what he is feeling? What Ehud Barak understood in his day - would that be impossible for us to understand?

Young people who have no future will easily give up their future, which they can't see on the horizon. Their past as guttersnipes and their present as cursed unemployed idlers lock the opening to their hope: Their death is better than their life, and their death is even better than our life, as their oppressors - that is how they feel. From the day they are born to the day they leave this earth, they see their land ahead, to which they will not come as free people.

There are no good and bad peoples; there are only leaderships that behave responsibly or insanely. And now we are fighting those whom a goodly number of us would be like, had we been in their place for 41 and a half years.

Winehole23
01-16-2009, 12:08 AM
For historically analogous Jewish extremism, it behooves one to consider Irgun (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/293947/Irgun-Zvai-Leumi) and the Stern Group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_%28group%29), as suggested above by Mr. Avnery.

Ignignokt
01-16-2009, 02:35 AM
Palestinians forfeited the right to that land when they sold it to jews who were migrating pre ww2 and after.

Jews did not take the land from the palestinians, that's not how the israeli nation was born.

Israel was attacked after declaring nationhood status to protect itself from threats. It won its right to exist as have all countries like China, Germany, France etc.

The palis that fled and abetted the enemy were not allowed back, the arabs that stayed and helped the israelis fight, kept theirs.

Israel has a 40 percent arab populace. This is no longer about who is occupying who. Israel has given back some territories back to the palestinians with the promise of peace. The Palestinian people have not shown that they can coincide peacefully next to israel.

So Israel has everyright to fight the attacks shelled on its citizens. The Israelis are already despised by the arab world, and don't need their approval since their approval would hinge on total anhilation.

When the western world stops lowering their standards for palestinians, then we can move forward in the peace process.

Otherwise this moral equivocation does far worse than any Israeli shelling a pediatric clinic at the gaza strip.

Have the same expectations for both sides, And then maybe we can talk.

Ignignokt
01-16-2009, 02:39 AM
the entire Palestinian-Israeli conflict is a lose-lose for both sides. the extremists on both sides are hell-bent on sabotaging any attempt at peace and ceasefire. And Hamas *IS* the extremist, so when you have them in charge in Gaza, you're pretty much fucked.


I have a hard time believing that a nation consisting of lots of secular atheist want to sustain holy war.

If you look at it israels allies, they want peace.

If you look at palestines allies, the same cannot be said for all of them.

sook
01-16-2009, 11:26 AM
I have a hard time believing that a nation consisting of lots of secular atheist want to sustain holy war.

If you look at it israels allies, they want peace.

If you look at palestines allies, the same cannot be said for all of them.

you are naive.

"Israel wants peace."-I'm not even going to bother responding to that. Hamaas is the root of all evil but after this conflict i think Israel is just as bad.

Winehole23
01-16-2009, 11:37 AM
If you insist on moral accountability it has to be there for both sides. The notion that Israel is infinitely justified in its retaliations has dangerous consequences for Israel. That was the basic point of Mr. Avnery's article.

Winehole23
01-16-2009, 11:42 AM
Otherwise this moral equivocation does far worse than any Israeli shelling a pediatric clinic at the gaza strip.What moral equivocation?

sook
01-16-2009, 12:05 PM
This guy is a puppet ,what he just said in his post is that Israel is always right no matter what happens. I feel sorry the guy hasn't been keeping up with the facts.

Israelis aren't born better than Palest., they are human too. If you honestly feel that way i don't understand how you can watch videos of dead children and feel no remorse. I pity you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5wrwZlwAq8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjUxHN5YkSU&feature=related

And you seem to be misinformed, its not just the arabs that hate Israel now, its the rest of the world with the exception of the U.S. Tony Blair even said he was appalled. This whole invasion was nothing but Israel flexing its muscles showing it was still strong.

sook
01-16-2009, 12:14 PM
Palestinians forfeited the right to that land when they sold it to jews who were migrating pre ww2 and after.

Jews did not take the land from the palestinians, that's not how the israeli nation was born.

Israel was attacked after declaring nationhood status to protect itself from threats. It won its right to exist as have all countries like China, Germany, France etc.

The palis that fled and abetted the enemy were not allowed back, the arabs that stayed and helped the israelis fight, kept theirs.

Israel has a 40 percent arab populace. This is no longer about who is occupying who. Israel has given back some territories back to the palestinians with the promise of peace. The Palestinian people have not shown that they can coincide peacefully next to israel.

So Israel has everyright to fight the attacks shelled on its citizens. The Israelis are already despised by the arab world, and don't need their approval since their approval would hinge on total anhilation.

When the western world stops lowering their standards for palestinians, then we can move forward in the peace process.

Otherwise this moral equivocation does far worse than any Israeli shelling a pediatric clinic at the gaza strip.

Have the same expectations for both sides, And then maybe we can talk.

Wow...just wow

Cant_Be_Faded
01-16-2009, 09:39 PM
Jews jess kent dew teengks like dettt....

fixed :lol

Ignignokt
01-16-2009, 10:44 PM
you are naive.

"Israel wants peace."-I'm not even going to bother responding to that. Hamaas is the root of all evil but after this conflict i think Israel is just as bad.


Wrong i said israels allies want peace, what's wrong with that statement.

Ignignokt
01-16-2009, 10:48 PM
If you insist on moral accountability it has to be there for both sides. The notion that Israel is infinitely justified in its retaliations has dangerous consequences for Israel. That was the basic point of Mr. Avnery's article.


Mr Avnery's point is invalid. What he fails to grasp is that israel has no real winnable options, with the restrictions we as the world body put on them.

Israel is fighting an uphill battle because the world puts in a set of rules for israel to fight by and the palestinians another.

This is the moral equivocation i am talking about.

Palestinians want peace, well then prove you can coexist like everyone else in the 21st century.

Ignignokt
01-16-2009, 10:49 PM
This guy is a puppet ,what he just said in his post is that Israel is always right no matter what happens. I feel sorry the guy hasn't been keeping up with the facts.

Israelis aren't born better than Palest., they are human too. If you honestly feel that way i don't understand how you can watch videos of dead children and feel no remorse. I pity you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5wrwZlwAq8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjUxHN5YkSU&feature=related

And you seem to be misinformed, its not just the arabs that hate Israel now, its the rest of the world with the exception of the U.S. Tony Blair even said he was appalled. This whole invasion was nothing but Israel flexing its muscles showing it was still strong.


I'm not aware of me saying Israelis are a superior people. Link?

Ignignokt
01-16-2009, 10:52 PM
thank you random guy.

You're right with dupes like you, Israel can only be seen in a bad light.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_B1H-1opys

Ignignokt
01-16-2009, 10:55 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_B1H-1opys

Winehole23
01-17-2009, 04:34 AM
Mr Avnery's point is invalid. What he fails to grasp is that israel has no real winnable options, with the restrictions we as the world body put on them. You could hardly tell there are any restrictions at all from the beat down they're putting on Gaza right now.


Israel is fighting an uphill battle because the world puts in a set of rules for israel to fight by and the palestinians another.

This is the moral equivocation i am talking about. I think the word you mean is equivalence. You seem to think that applying the same morality to both sides is "different rules."

Do you know what equivalence means, Ignignokt?


Palestinians want peace, well then prove you can coexist like everyone else in the 21st century.You didn't read the capsules on Irgun and the Stern Gang, did you?

sook
01-17-2009, 08:28 PM
I'm not aware of me saying Israelis are a superior people. Link?

when you show you don't care 1203 palest people have died, you are indicating you give no importance to their life, or am i wrong? So you say Israel has a right to defend itself right? What exactly is "Defending itself" anymore? A total blockade and bombing of a defenseless people is defending itself?

This whole stupid conflict is disgusting, Israel just wants to flex its muscles to show it is still the most powerful country in the region. No matter how many palest women and children die no body gives a shit about them, yet you make an insensitive claim like "The west needs to stop lowering its standards for the palest. people."

I wanted to ask you this, just to see if you really apply the same standard across the board, if Israeli terrorists, hypothetically speaking of course, were firing toy rockets from a hospital, would it be ok for anybody to just level the hospital?

Once again the main problem is when Israel attacks, its defending itself, when palest. defends itself, its terrorism.