LeBron or Kobe? A never-ending debate

[Showtime24 LAKERS]

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2009/0119/nba_g_kobe_lebron1_576.jpg

Forget the MJ comparisons. Are LeBron and Kobe this generation's Magic and Bird?

This month, I've realized two things are overrated: New Year's resolutions and determining who's better between Kobe Bryant and LeBron James.

We put so much emphasis on the start of a new year without thinking about just how random the date is. All it marks is a point on the Earth's orbit, and if we're not going to use in our everyday lives the days the Earth is closest to or farthest from the sun, one day is really no different from any other day. To us, nothing really changes on Jan. 1. Where is the start or finish on an ellipse? Someone (apparently, Julius Caesar) happened to pick Jan. 1, so that's the date after which the waiting times for the treadmill at your health club increase thanks to all the extra people who resolved to lose weight. It's arbitrary.

Maybe the paths of Kobe and LeBron are circular, not linear, so we'll never really know who's ahead. The common assumption was that LeBron was chasing Kobe, owner of three championship rings by the time LeBron reached the NBA Finals and the first between them to win an NBA Most Valuable Player award. But in the past couple of seasons, in the category that matters most -- postseason accomplishments -- LeBron has held the edge. LeBron was the first to take a team to the Finals on his own as the primary star. And LeBron's team took three games from the Boston Celtics in last season's playoffs, one more than Kobe's team managed.

The data at 82games.com suggest LeBron is better in the clutch, but why is it so much easier to call up the litany of Kobe's late-game heroics?

Both have benefited from taking on each other's qualities. LeBron needed more of Kobe's ruthlessness, the desire -- the need -- to take over games when the situation called for it. Kobe flourished when he adopted LeBron's willingness to involve his teammates. Could it be we have chosen the wrong measurement, that instead of sizing them up to determine the worthiest heir to Michael Jordan, we really should be assessing them as Magic Johnson and Larry Bird, the two parallel players who gave the league its juice in the 1980s?

For all of those brilliant "There Can Only Be One" commercials for last season's playoffs, we were deprived of the one we needed to see: Kobe and LeBron. We had LeBron and Kevin Garnett and Kobe and Garnett, but never Kobe and LeBron. One split-screen shot of the two of them is all you need. For all the stars in the league right now -- Dwight Howard, Dwyane Wade, the Celtics' Big Three -- the core question in the NBA right now is, Kobe or LeBron?

I thought I had a definitive answer last week after a former NBA player with championship rings explained why he gave the edge to Kobe. He looked at what happened when they were Olympic teammates and pointed to the gold-medal game in Beijing. The United States wouldn't have won it without Bryant. The U.S. assembled a roster of stars, and who did it need when it mattered most? Kobe.

The player said the reason you're seeing a better LeBron this season, especially at the defensive end, is that he spent the summer practicing and playing with Kobe and saw Kobe's commitment to be the best.

Sounded good enough to me. I had my answer. But the next day, Kobe shot 3-for-12 in the fourth quarter of a Lakers home loss to the Orlando Magic, while LeBron hit the Hornets for 29 points, 14 rebounds and seven assists in an easy home victory. Whom would you rather have had on your team that night?

Monday night we'll get to see them on the same court, one of the two dates on the NBA's regular-season calendar that brings these stars together.

Bryant initially tried to downplay the event. When he was asked whether the competitive juices flow any faster when he faces LeBron, he said, "Every year you ask me the same boring question, and it's the same boring answer: No. I don't concern myself with that stuff, to be honest with you."

The problem was we had just seen evidence to the contrary Jan. 11, when Bryant squared off against Miami's Wade and clearly relished the opportunity, defending Wade so tightly that Wade's jersey should have had an "inspected by No. 24" sticker on it.

Reminding Kobe of that night brought this admission: "You compete no matter who you play against. Obviously, with guys who are that talented, you have to raise the level a lot more than playing against somebody else. It's going to be the same way [against LeBron]. It's going to be competitive. I've got to do what I've got to do to help our team win. He's got to do the same thing."

So yes, this game is different, one of those dates on the calendar that stands out. We will learn a little more, but we won't get resolution. We'll be just another step closer to reaching this same place again on a never-ending path.

[JamStone]

Problem with comparing it to Magic and Bird is that not only were Magic and Larry only a couple years apart, but they also entered the league basically at the same time and they both joined teams that instantly became championship contenders.

LeBron and Kobe may meet in the NBA Finals a couple times, but until it happens at least once and probably at least twice, the comparison really can't be made. At least in that championship sort of way that really created the long lasting view of what made "Magic and Bird" well "Magic and Bird."

It's pretty obvious LeBron and Kobe are the two best players in the game right now. But, in order to raise that duo to the likes of Magic and Bird, it has to come down to the two of them competing for NBA titles for several years, even if they don't necessarily face each other in the NBA Finals. So, if LeBron wins the title this year, then Kobe the next, then LeBron the next, then Kobe again, even if it doesn't necessarily matter that they don't beat the other in the Finals. The comparison carries more weight. But, they either have to face each other for the title or they each have to be winning titles even without facing each other. At least that's how I see it.

[endrity]

Problem with comparing it to Magic and Bird is that not only were Magic and Larry only a couple years apart, but they also entered the league basically at the same time and they both joined teams that instantly became championship contenders.

LeBron and Kobe may meet in the NBA Finals a couple times, but until it happens at least once and probably at least twice, the comparison really can't be made. At least in that championship sort of way that really created the long lasting view of what made "Magic and Bird" well "Magic and Bird."

It's pretty obvious LeBron and Kobe are the two best players in the game right now. But, in order to raise that duo to the likes of Magic and Bird, it has to come down to the two of them competing for NBA titles for several years, even if they don't necessarily face each other in the NBA Finals. So, if LeBron wins the title this year, then Kobe the next, then LeBron the next, then Kobe again, even if it doesn't necessarily matter that they don't beat the other in the Finals. The comparison carries more weight. But, they either have to face each other for the title or they each have to be winning titles even without facing each other. At least that's how I see it.


Exactly, fortunately for the NBA, Magic and Bird were almost the same age, hit their primes simoultanously and were playing in two teams that were simoultaneous rivals. LeBron's prime is probably 2 years away, and 2 years from now Kobe should be well outside of his.

[Armando]

Kobe

[Reck]

Kobe for now.

Lebron will soon overtake him though.

[Armando]

BTW Wade needs to be part of the debate as well

[Unholy Turkey]

BTW Wade needs to be part of the debate as well

I've never watched him, but couldn't Wade resemble Alex English?

[Pistons < Spurs]

Kobe.

[tlongII]

LeBron is clearly better than Kobe. Kobe's great, but he's just not as good as LeBron. Head to head LeBron has more wins, more points, more rebounds, and more assists.

[Armando]

LeBron is clearly better than Kobe. Kobe's great, but he's just not as good as LeBron. Head to head LeBron has more wins, more points, more rebounds, and more assists.

Kobe has 3 rings and an MVP. LeBron is close but not quite there yet. And I would say he is neck and neck with Wade. Wade having a slight advantage having won a ring and Finals MVP. But is only a matter of time before James gets his. Not sure if it will be this year but is coming.

[tlongII]

Kobe has 3 rings and an MVP. LeBron is close but not quite there yet. And I would say he is neck and neck with Wade. Wade having a slight advantage having won a ring and Finals MVP. But is only a matter of time before James gets his. Not sure if it will be this year but is coming.

Kobe has 3 rings with Shaq. LeBron will have rings soon enough and he doesn't have the support Kobe has. LeBron should have been MVP last year instead of Kobe.

[Dim Tuncan]

anyone who picks 'bron-'bron at this point in time is fucked in the head and needs to see a neurologist ASAP.

[TheMACHINE]

Kobe has 3 rings with Shaq. LeBron will have rings soon enough and he doesn't have the support Kobe has. LeBron should have been MVP last year instead of Kobe.

hmmm...sound like alot of excuses and "shoulda's"

[Kamnik]

It's pretty obvious LeBron and Kobe are the two best players in the game right now.

I wouldnt say this about Kobe.

Put DWade in Kobe's place and that team is as good or better than right now.

[de Soto]

At the moment. Kobe. He's the winner. The other one has potential to become one but so far he hasn't been able to take the pressure.

[Fabbs]

Lebron has passed Tim Duncan as the leagues true MVP.

[turiaf for president]

LeBron is clearly better than Kobe. Kobe's great, but he's just not as good as LeBron. Head to head LeBron has more wins, more points, more rebounds, and more assists.

how is he CLEARLY better when this on going debate never stops? no one is CLEARLY better than the other

[TheMACHINE]

I wouldnt say this about Kobe.

Put DWade in Kobe's place and that team is as good or better than right now.

:lol:rollin

[magic2kb8]

there is no clear cut...its an any given night kind of thing. Now the reason I choose kobe is because though Kobe can not do the the things physically that bron does, kobe is more skilled. Until lebron can truly attack going left, he is at a disadvantage to me. Play lebron left (he will comeback right) and have the double attacking him when he does. Neither can be stopped one on one (though i have seen both do a decent job on each other) but I feel like a team can gameplan to stop bron easier than it can kobe.

Left hand (handling not shooting) and jumper consistency elevats Kobe.

[lebomb]

Lets see...........both are great scorers and super athletic.

Hmmm..... Kobe is 6'-6" about 220-230lb? Lebron 6'-8" pushing 265-270? Uhhhhhh.....Hello! Im taking Lebron. Dude is a beast.

[JamStone]

how is he CLEARLY better when this on going debate never stops? no one is CLEARLY better than the other

^This.

Both players have strengths the other doesn't. Both are elite players, and both are the two best players in the game right now. Neither is clearly better than the other. There are arguments for both.

[stretch]

Lebron can somewhat be likened to the "Shaq" of Guards/Forwards. Impossible to stop one-on-one simply due to physical abilities alone. Still nearly unstoppable despite double and triple teams. Physically, he is simply too much to handle for anyone.

[stretch]

there is no clear cut...its an any given night kind of thing. Now the reason I choose kobe is because though Kobe can not do the the things physically that bron does, kobe is more skilled. Until lebron can truly attack going left, he is at a disadvantage to me. Play lebron left (he will comeback right) and have the double attacking him when he does. Neither can be stopped one on one (though i have seen both do a decent job on each other) but I feel like a team can gameplan to stop bron easier than it can kobe.

Left hand (handling not shooting) and jumper consistency elevats Kobe.

The left hand and jumper that leads to Kobe shooting his team out of games, deflates Kobe as well.

[JamStone]

Kobe is like the "Hakeem Olajuwon" of shooting guards. Supremely gifted naturally, but also extremely skilled and polished, and uses both in his play. Also, he competes at both ends at an elite level.

[stretch]

Kobe is like the "Hakeem Olajuwon" of shooting guards. Supremely gifted naturally, but also extremely skilled and polished, and uses both in his play. Also, he competes at both ends at an elite level.

Good comparison.

[DrHouse]

Kobe is clearly more skilled in nearly every aspect of the game. He doesn't have the insane athleticism to dominate the game the way LBJ does.

I do know this though, unless Lebron seriously devotes the time to improving his game he will see a major drop off in production when his athleticism declines.

[timvp]

Kobe is clearly more skilled in nearly every aspect of the game. He doesn't have the insane athleticism to dominate the game the way LBJ does.

I do know this though, unless Lebron seriously devotes the time to improving his game he will see a major drop off in production when his athleticism declines.Insecure much?

[DrHouse]

^Hater. 4-1. It hurts, I know.

[timvp]

I canth tolk righ now I ga Kope's junk inmy mouf

[JamStone]

Kobe is clearly more skilled in nearly every aspect of the game. He doesn't have the insane athleticism to dominate the game the way LBJ does.

I do know this though, unless Lebron seriously devotes the time to improving his game he will see a major drop off in production when his athleticism declines.

Thing is LeBron's athleticism might not start to decline for another 12 years or so.

[DrHouse]

Thing is LeBron's athleticism might not start to decline for another 12 years or so.

True dat.

He's built like a tank. But you never know, with the way he plays he's a little more susceptible to getting hurt than most players. Kind of like D-Wade.

[JamStone]

There's every indication that LeBron will continue to improve in the skills department. And, it's not like he's devoid of elite skill already. The only things he really can improve greatly on are his perimeter jumper (which has improved) and his defense (which has improved).

[debo]

Kobe is clearly more skilled in nearly every aspect of the game.

i disagree

[DrHouse]

There's every indication that LeBron will continue to improve in the skills department. And, it's not like he's devoid of elite skill already. The only things he really can improve greatly on are his perimeter jumper (which has improved) and his defense (which has improved).

Jumpshooting, post up game, free throws. 3 sizeable holes in Lebron's game IMHO.

[DrHouse]

i disagree

of course you would. you're a spurs fan.

[mardigan]

I'll take Bron is a heartbeat.

[KidCongo]

There's every indication that LeBron will continue to improve in the skills department. And, it's not like he's devoid of elite skill already. The only things he really can improve greatly on are his perimeter jumper (which has improved) and his defense (which has improved).

The thing about his jumper is that everyone knows what he does wrong (coaches, analysts, fans) except he just can't seem to fix the bad habits. He has improved to where his shot with set feet is pretty good. It is very streaky. He does put alot of work into improving his game and is still maturing.

[KidCongo]

Kobe is clearly more skilled in nearly every aspect of the game. He doesn't have the insane athleticism to dominate the game the way LBJ does.

I do know this though, unless Lebron seriously devotes the time to improving his game he will see a major drop off in production when his athleticism declines.

A major drop off in his scoring production maybe. He won't lose his court vision and passing ability. He could devote a couple of more summers to his post game and become a back to basket foward in his 30's.

[JamStone]

Jumpshooting, post up game, free throws. 3 sizeable holes in Lebron's game IMHO.

A post game he will develop. Jordan didn't develop his mid-post game until several years into his career as well. KG and David Robinson never developed a post game and those two played power forward and center. LeBron is a perimeter player. Not having a well developed post game won't hurt him unless he can't drive to the basket anymore, which again likely won't happen for many, many seasons.

As far as his free throw shooting, you talk as if he's a 50% free throw shooter. He shoots 78% from the free throw line. Sure, he's had several moments where he's missed key free throws late in games. But, he's not a bad free throw shooter. Again, he's improved in that area.

And, he's improved with his overall jump shooting as well.

Your criticisms stink more of hate than actual legitimate criticisms.

[JoeTait75]

Jumpshooting, post up game, free throws. 3 sizeable holes in Lebron's game IMHO.

Post-up game? He's a perimeter player. A post-up game is a luxury for him at this point, not a requirement. Would you penalize any other perimeter player in the league for not having a post game?

[Allanon]

All of the great players have a post-up game. LeBron will just have to develop it. Even DWade has a better post up at this point.

There's really no reason for him not to have a post-up game, he's still maturing into it.

[DrHouse]

Post-up game? He's a perimeter player. A post-up game is a luxury for him at this point, not a requirement. Would you penalize any other perimeter player in the league for not having a post game?

Lebron isn't any other perimeter player though. He's being compared with Kobe and MJ, not Grant Hill.

Lebron doesn't have a great shooting touch. He doesn't instill confidence when he shoots jumpers or free throws. You can foul him in the closing seconds knowing there is a good chance he misses at least one free throw. I just don't think you can say the same about Kobe and MJ.

And both Kobe and MJ shot over 80% from the FT line early in their careers. The shooting touch was always there, just never fully developed until it needed to be. Lebron came into the league shooting 75% from the line and managed to shoot worse for the next 3 seasons going as low as 69% one season. All signs point to him never having a great shooting touch at any point in his career. Can he improve? Of course, but don't expect him to be anything like MJ or Kobe from midrange.

[mardigan]

Lebron isn't any other perimeter player though. He's being compared with Kobe and MJ, not Grant Hill.

Lebron doesn't have a great shooting touch. He doesn't instill confidence when he shoots jumpers or free throws. You can foul him in the closing seconds knowing there is a good chance he misses at least one free throw. I just don't think you can say the same about Kobe and MJ.

And both Kobe and MJ shot over 80% from the FT line early in their careers. The shooting touch was always there, just never fully developed until it needed to be. Lebron came into the league shooting 75% from the line and managed to shoot worse for the next 3 seasons going as low as 69% one season. All signs point to him never having a great shooting touch at any point in his career. Can he improve? Of course, but don't expect him to be anything like MJ or Kobe from midrange.

I think your forgetting his age here. Dude's only like 24, he still has plenty of time to develop. Plus, he doesnt need to score chingos of points to help his team win a game, he can take over a game just assisting and rebounding. Plus, his defense has gotten better and better since he came into this league. He got the one of the worse constructed teams I have ever seen into the Finals. I think you might be selling him a little short.

[DrHouse]

I think your forgetting his age here. Dude's only like 24, he still has plenty of time to develop. Plus, he doesnt need to score chingos of points to help his team win a game, he can take over a game just assisting and rebounding. Plus, his defense has gotten better and better since he came into this league. He got the one of the worse constructed teams I have ever seen into the Finals. I think you might be selling him a little short.

His defense is phenomenal and the part of his game that I appreciate the most. He can be an absolute terror on the defensive end in ways not even MJ could have dreamed about.

I could very well be wrong, I acknowledge that. My gut tells me Lebron will never be a great shooter though. As it stands he doesn't need to be to impact the game. He's that damn good.

[baseline bum]

I've never watched him, but couldn't Wade resemble Alex English?

English was a very good player, but a lot of those numbers were a product of the system he played in. I watched English for years, and he wasn't half the player Wade is. Wade is way more athletic and much better at getting to the rim, not to mention he is a better defender also.

[magic2kb8]

The left hand and jumper that leads to Kobe shooting his team out of games, deflates Kobe as well.


quite possibly your worse argument ever.(him having that ablity is not what causes him to shoot his team out of games...and he has kept his team in more games than he has shot them out of) You are as touchy about lebron (or any player you love) as laker fans are about kobe. I clearly said there is no clear cut best (and i am a kobe fan, laker fan first but still a kobe fan) but why I would choose kobe. I didnt say that should be anyone elses choice. Guess what though....Im not crazy! I would not be in the least disappointed if bron was on my team.

[JoeTait75]

Lebron doesn't have a great shooting touch. He doesn't instill confidence when he shoots jumpers or free throws. You can foul him in the closing seconds knowing there is a good chance he misses at least one free throw. I just don't think you can say the same about Kobe and MJ.

I'm not going to argue that LeBron doesn't have a great shooting touch. I personally don't think he's ever going to really be deadly as a shooter, just a streak guy. But you're overstating his problems at the free-throw line. He was an 80% FT shooter in high school at SV-SM. He'll have his 6-for-14 nights every now and again, but he's never hurt us in big games/playoff games at the line. He's underachieved in that area early in his career, he can be frustrating as hell at times, but he isn't Nick Anderson post-'95 Finals or anything like that.

[TheMACHINE]

I'm not going to argue that LeBron doesn't have a great shooting touch. I personally don't think he's ever going to really be deadly as a shooter, just a streak guy. But you're overstating his problems at the free-throw line. He was an 80% FT shooter in high school at SV-SM. He'll have his 6-for-14 nights every now and again, but he's never hurt us in big games/playoff games at the line. He's underachieved in that area early in his career, he can be frustrating as hell at times, but he isn't Nick Anderson post-'95 Finals or anything like that.

Just hope he develops it or you'll have nights (like last night) where refs wont blow every whistle and all he is depending on is his freight train move to the basket hoping for a foul. He's gonna have to learn to adjust as the game goes on.

[peskypesky]

Just hope he develops it or you'll have nights (like last night) where refs wont blow every whistle and all he is depending on is his freight train/crab dribble move to the basket hoping for a foul.

fixed

[magic2kb8]

Post-up game? He's a perimeter player. A post-up game is a luxury for him at this point, not a requirement. Would you penalize any other perimeter player in the league for not having a post game?


your statement is somewhat true, but if lebron could have used the triple threat position last year (1 third of that post up) then the celts would not have been NBA champs last year.

[hater]

to assemble a team, I'd pick Lebron over Kobe 100 times out of 100

it's a no brainer

[jack sommerset]

No debate its Lebron. I hope the Cavs and Lakers reach the finals then this debate will never be brought up again.

[z0sa]

of course you would. you're a spurs fan.

shut the fuck up.

your takes are stupid and pointless, and its clear you're an insecure LA fan since you're on another team's board and looking to provoke others.

you're a sore loser, a douche and a troll.

You bring nothing but Spur hate to the table and then, like the true hypocrite you are, say we do nothing but hate on Kobe and the Lakers.