Bill Gates: 'What's Wrong With American High Schools'

[Nbadan]

What's Wrong With American High Schools
The approaches of 50 years ago cannot work today, Bill Gates says.
By Bill Gates

Bill Gates, chairman of Microsoft, is co-founder of the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation.
March 1, 2005


Our high schools are obsolete.

By obsolete, I don't just mean that they are broken, flawed and underfunded — although I can't argue with any of those descriptions.

What I mean is that they were designed 50 years ago to meet the needs of another age. Today, even when they work exactly as designed, our high schools cannot teach our kids what they need to know. <snip>

This is an economic disaster. In the international competition to have the best supply of workers who can communicate clearly, analyze information and solve complex problems, the United States is falling behind. We have one of the highest high school dropout rates in the industrialized world.

In math and science, our fourth-graders rank among the top students in the world, but our 12th-graders are near the bottom. China has six times as many college graduates in engineering.

As bad as it is for our economy, it's even worse for our students. Today, most jobs that pay enough to support a family require some post-secondary education. Yet only half of all students who enter high school enroll in a post-secondary institution.
<snip>

First, declare that all students must graduate from high school ready for college, work and citizenship. Every politician and chief executive in the country should speak up for the belief that children need to take courses that prepare them for college.

Second, publish the data that measure our progress toward that goal. We already have some data that show us the extent of the problem. But we need to know more: What percentage of students are dropping out? What percentage are graduating? And this data must be broken down by race and income.

Finally, every state should commit to turning around failing schools and opening new ones. When the students don't learn, the school must change. Every state needs a strong intervention strategy to improve struggling schools. <snip>

LA Times (http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-gates1mar01.story)

A problem is that US schools are getting away from teaching kids critical thinking skills and more toward just regurgitation of names, facts and dates. While memorization is important, the ability to use the knowledge to solve a problem is critical to being well educated. I blame this on Republicans with their emphasis on standardized testing only as a sole judgment of a student's progress.

[Clandestino]

one factor could be that in america everyone has to go to high school.. in other countries by 16 only the chosen ones continue on in school..they rest begin apprenticeships or vocational training.

[desflood]

Sorry Captain Buzzkill, you can't pin this on the conservatives.

[ididnotnothat]

I blame it on women joining the workforce and kids not getting the nurturing that they need. Mom doesn't need to go to aerobic lessons when she should be at home taking care of the kids.

And just how much is pay is required to support a family?

Why can some do it on $30,000 a year while others can't?

Why are modest homes in the $60 - $70K range hard to find?

I don't blame it on any one particular party. This is an issue that hurts all of us.

[Guru of Nothing]

A problem is that US schools are getting away from teaching kids critical thinking skills and more toward just regurgitation of names, facts and dates. While memorization is important, the ability to use the knowledge to solve a problem is critical to being well educated. I blame this on Republicans with their emphasis on standardized testing only as a sole judgment of a student's progress.

I blame people who do nothing but blame others.

[ididnotnothat]

I blame those who don't speak out.

[desflood]

It's true that the feminist movement pretty much killed the "family movement", but that is one very small part of a large whole.

[exstatic]

Hey, Bill...I'll bet that even if there were a hardworking, studious young man or woman who did well in college, bypassing your take on the crappy HS situation, and he or she wanted market value for a salary, you'd ship the job off to Bangalore. Don't tell these kids to study hard when you're only going to offshore a big portion of your software jobs. Falling wages, in addition to driving up profits, are also driving two income families.

[JoeChalupa]

Back when my dad was in school, he only went to 6th grade, there wasn't a need for college since you could get a good paying manufacturing job of which there are not many left other than the automobile industry.
I'm sure there are others but that is the one that I think of most when it comes to manufacturing jobs.

Heck, even those with college degrees apply at places like Toyota.

Is it fair that they are making over $50-$60K while teachers are paid less?

Some just have to learn to live within their budgets.

Just my two cents.

[Clandestino]

Hey, Bill...I'll bet that even if there were a hardworking, studious young man or woman who did well in college, bypassing your take on the crappy HS situation, and he or she wanted market value for a salary, you'd ship the job off to Bangalore. Don't tell these kids to study hard when you're only going to offshore a big portion of your software jobs. Falling wages, in addition to driving up profits, are also driving two income families.

two income families are what happened when women went to work... they weren't forced too..they wanted more money... house prices have skyrocketed since women went to work..

if some guy lived in my neighborhood wanted 40 bucks to cut my grass, but a guy from the neighborhood would do it for $10 it would make sense for me to hire the cheaper guy...

[MannyIsGod]

I blame it on women joining the workforce and kids not getting the nurturing that they need. Mom doesn't need to go to aerobic lessons when she should be at home taking care of the kids.


I thought about responding to this, but then I thought, let Jess do it.

I can't wait to read that.

[spurster]

I call BS. Reading and writing and arithmetic have not changed too much in the past 50 years.

Teaching students what they need to know is BS. Different jobs have different things you need to know. However, if students can read and write and solve problems, then they can learn what they need to know.

[exstatic]

if some guy lived in my neighborhood wanted 40 bucks to cut my grass, but a guy from the neighborhood would do it for $10 it would make sense for me to hire the cheaper guy...

Then don't complain when his wife is out cutting grass for $10, too, so they can put food on the table and pay the mortgage. The two income family is a fuction of wages forced down by offshoring, first in the manufacturing sector, and now in the tech sector.

[Clandestino]

Then don't complain when his wife is out cutting grass for $10, too, so they can put food on the table and pay the mortgage. The two income family is a fuction of wages forced down by offshoring, first in the manufacturing sector, and now in the tech sector.

actually the lower income two family jobs aren't what is pushing housing prices higher... it is the middle income families who would live on 45k a year, that now have 90k a year and move out the 45k a year neighborhood into the 90k a year neighborhood.... then the next guy sends his wife to work, adn so on, and so on.. then all the prices are high.. and everyone is forced to work..when one loses their job they have to sell their house...

[JoeChalupa]

I think that sounds logical. Keeping up with the Jones's?

[Guru of Nothing]

Hey, Bill...I'll bet that even if there were a hardworking, studious young man or woman who did well in college, bypassing your take on the crappy HS situation, and he or she wanted market value for a salary, you'd ship the job off to Bangalore. Don't tell these kids to study hard when you're only going to offshore a big portion of your software jobs. Falling wages, in addition to driving up profits, are also driving two income families.

Ex, Clayton Williams could set you straight in about 10 seconds.

[exstatic]

Ex, Clayton Williams could set you straight in about 10 seconds.
A Republican who managed to lose a statewide election in Texas? That's like failing a breathing test. I think I'll take my advice elsewhere.

[Guru of Nothing]

A Republican who managed to lose a statewide election in Texas? That's like failing a breathing test. I think I'll take my advice elsewhere.

Well then, I guess you will just have to find your "joy" elsewhere.

[dcole50]

I blame it on women joining the workforce and kids not getting the nurturing that they need.

yeah, keep women out of the workplace. brilliant. if you're a single mom with a deadbeat dad, suck it up. stay in the kitchen, stay out ..

eh, i can't even finish this. my point: that's an idiotic statement.

[desflood]

I think, dcole, the idea was women who don't have to work should stay home...

[Guru of Nothing]

I think, dcole, the idea was women who don't have to work should stay home...

I think women who choose not to work should refrain from complaining about OPM.

[Guru of Nothing]

I think, dcole, the idea was women who don't have to work should stay home...

What about men who don't have to work? Should they stay home?

[NameDropper]

I think women who choose not to work should refrain from complaining about OPM.

I'm down with OPP! :hat

[desflood]

Some women choose what is best for their children, instead of convenient for themselves.

[Guru of Nothing]

Some women choose what is best for their children, instead of convenient for themselves.

Keep telling yourself that! I'm divorced, so staying at home is not an option for mom. Nonetheless, my kids are still off to a stellar start in life because of all the things the ex and I do for them, and all the while we both work..

Stop patronizing yourself. Nobody here can relate.

[MannyIsGod]

Some women choose what is best for their children, instead of convenient for themselves.

And some fathers do the same. What place does that ridiculous drivel have in a real discussion?

[desflood]

Once again, some women DO HAVE TO WORK. Who is denying that? I'm just putting forth the opinion that it MIGHT be in the best interest of the kids that if mom doesn't have to work, she shouldn't. Be cool, don't get defensive. Everybody does what they have to do.

[dcole50]

my mom worked full time as a nurese when she was married to my dad and after their divorce. the money she made from that job really helped my family and she still had plenty of time to be an excellent mother. because some people can't manage it, it doesn't mean women shouldn't be in the workplace.

edit: this is not in response to your latest post, desflood.

[Guru of Nothing]

Some women choose what is best for their children, instead of convenient for themselves.

You are failing GoN philosophy 101. EVERYBODY seeks convenience. Have you ever fed a child a bologna sandwich?

[MannyIsGod]

Once again, some women DO HAVE TO WORK. Who is denying that? I'm just putting forth the opinion that it MIGHT be in the best interest of the kids that if mom doesn't have to work, she shouldn't. Be cool, don't get defensive. Everybody does what they have to do.

Ok, but what place does pointing out that some people do what might not be int he best interests of their kids? Sure, some women might not, but some fathers might not as well.

The idea that a woman's number one obligation is to bear children and care for them is flawed. Seriously so.

Don't try to wiggle out of what you said either. You want to know what's worse than people with bad viewpoints? People with bad viewpoints who try to wiggle out of them.

[desflood]

:lol I understand what you're saying. But it's not convenient for me to be here at home! We're living paycheck to paycheck, the house is never totally clean and my brain has turned to mush from lack of adult mental stimulation. But it is what's better for the kids, so that's why I do it.

[desflood]

Who said anything about obligation, Manny? I don't think women are obligated to have kids at all.

[Guru of Nothing]

:lol I understand what you're saying. But it's not convenient for me to be here at home! We're living paycheck to paycheck, the house is never totally clean and my brain has turned to mush from lack of adult mental stimulation. But it is what's better for the kids, so that's why I do it.

Well, you certainly cannot expect adult mental stimulation when you dredge the spurstalk political forum - I call it the NBAdan rules.

You opt to be a stay at home mom; I respect and admire that (sincerely, I do), but like it or not, you pay an economic price for your decision. Just don't go raggin' on others who choose greener pastures, no matter how misguided they may be..

[Jekka]

I blame it on women joining the workforce and kids not getting the nurturing that they need. Mom doesn't need to go to aerobic lessons when she should be at home taking care of the kids.

Never ever say that when you know women are going to be reading it. At least not to women who don't consider Donna Reed's television career their reason for living.

Why does Mom have to stay at home? Why does Mom have to reinforce obsolete gender ideals? If we're going to go all-out equal, then why doesn't Dad stay at home?

I grew up with a stay-at-home Dad (he worked from home), and I think I got more out of that than if I'd had Mom at home. I didn't expect a mother to be there with milk and cookies when I got home from school, and I also developed a much better relationship with my father - and they say that a girl's relationship with her father will be a model for all her future relationships - doesn't a girl deserve to get a healthier start? And wouldn't that give boys another way to look at gender identity?

I think that it is best to have someone at home for a child, even if it's another relative, but that's not always possible - and some parents want to be able to live in better neighborhoods for better schools for their kids, and they want to be able to pay for more of their college, and why give up all the available luxuries in life just because you have children?

And while I'm at it, why shouldn't Mom go to aerobics? God forbid our mothers be healthy enough to make us cookies and milk longer and provide us with an active example that more overweight children need.

I think your view here is very close-minded and sexist - you may want to think about what you type a little longer before you do.

[Kori Ellis]

Why does Mom have to reinforce obsolete gender ideals?

I don't think those ideals are obsolete, nor should they be.


and they say that a girl's relationship with her father will be a model for all her future relationships

B.S.


I think that it is best to have someone at home for a child, even if it's another relative, but that's not always possible - and some parents want to be able to live in better neighborhoods for better schools for their kids, and they want to be able to pay for more of their college, and why give up all the available luxuries in life just because you have children?

Okay, what if you have all that to your satisfaction ... good neighboorhood/good schools, money put away for education, vacations, and emergencies. Then, should the mother still work?

I vote Hell No.

[3rdCoast]

i blame it on the god damn kids themselves for not being able to sit in a fucking class for 45 min without having to yell or fucking talk to their ass buddy about going to sonic after school. fucking sit down and shut your mouth and listen to what the teacher is saying and pass ur fucking tests.

[Guru of Nothing]

And while I'm at it, why shouldn't Mom go to aerobics?

Honestly, stay at home Mommy's gym membership is the first line of defense against cheating husbands. Cynical, but oh so true.

[Jekka]

The ideals aren't obsolete situationally - I think it's a problem when it is automatically expected that a mother stay at home just because she is the mother. That is obsolete.

I think that a woman's relationship with her father can have a lot to do with future relationships. A bad relationship can scar you (the same is true with mothers) and a good one tends to set a higher bar for future relationships (which can be good when being realistic, or can backfire and set standards way too high, setting you up for disappointment). Everything has an effect on future relationships, and I think it's worth it to give a child the best chance possible for functional sociability.

I didn't say that the mother shouldn't stay at home if the family has everything they want without her working - my point is that I think it's better if anyone - including the mother - is at home with a child than putting a child in daycare - but you do what's necessary.

[Kori Ellis]

Do you believe the mother's role is more of a nurturer than a father's?

[Kori Ellis]

I think that a woman's relationship with her father can have a lot to do with future relationships. A bad relationship can scar you (the same is true with mothers) and a good one tends to set a higher bar for future relationships (which can be good when being realistic, or can backfire and set standards way too high, setting you up for disappointment). Everything has an effect on future relationships, and I think it's worth it to give a child the best chance possible for functional sociability.

I believe that your relationship with your caregivers as a child (no matter who they are) can have some effect on how you handle many things in your future. But I don't believe necessarily that just because you had a bad (or non-existent) relationship with a parent that it will certainly affect you negatively. Sometimes when you struggle as a child or young adult, it makes you stronger and you handle adult relationships even better.

[Jekka]

Do you believe the mother's role is more of a nurturer than a father's?

I think the role of the nurturer goes to whomever dominantly decides to take that responsibility, it doesn't have to be the mother. I think a parent's role is whatever they decide it is, and in the child's case the parent's role is whatever they perceive it to be - there's a balance to take into consideration. I think it's both parents' duty to nuture, but that doesn't necessarily happen evenly - nuturing just needs to be present.

[Jekka]

I believe that your relationship with your caregivers as a child (no matter who they are) can have some effect on how you handle many things in your future. But I don't believe necessarily that just because you had a bad (or non-existent) relationship with a parent that it will certainly affect you negatively. Sometimes when you struggle as a child or young adult, it makes you stronger and you handle adult relationships even better.

Case in point: my relationship with my mother.

But yes, we can learn from those bad relationships if we want to and allow ourselves to.

[Guru of Nothing]

Do you believe the mother's role is more of a nurturer than a father's?

Not that you were asking me, but hell yes. Just last week my youngest girl spent two days in the hospital with pneumonia. I was good for a happy meal, one of those trendy squishy pillows in the shape of an animal, and a hug. Beyond that, nothing but mommy mattered.

Conveniently, Mom was there to fill the void.

[Jekka]

Not that you were asking me, but hell yes. Just last week my youngest girl spent two days in the hospital with pneumonia. I was good for a happy meal, one of those trendy squishy pillows in the shape of an animal, and a hug. Beyond that, nothing but mommy mattered.

Conveniently, Mom was there to fill the void.

Every morning when I was little, I called for Dad to come get me out of the crib. I knew who would actually get their ass out of bed. That mentality has stuck. Need to bitch about a boy? Call Mom (cos Dad has no idea how to respond). Need help/comfort/etc? Call Dad.

[Slomo]

Not that you were asking me, but hell yes. Just last week my youngest girl spent two days in the hospital with pneumonia. I was good for a happy meal, one of those trendy squishy pillows in the shape of an animal, and a hug. Beyond that, nothing but mommy mattered.

Conveniently, Mom was there to fill the void.
You might want to think about your relationship with your daughter - if you care about having one that is!

[Slomo]

What is great is that a thread about the failing school system evolved into a women lib dispute! The classic school system in place in most western democracies is not cutting it anymore the curriculum is either too vast (and therefore not detailed enough to be useful) or too restricted/specialised making it difficult for people to migrate between industries. Most classic teaching methods are inadequate for teaching new emerging sciences.
Many countries are seriously working on a school system reform (the Scandinavian nations for one) in order to counter the cheap and capable workforce that is coming from Asia.

Please don't look over your shoulder so you won't notice the Chinese stampede (and a few other nations too)!

[Guru of Nothing]

You might want to think about your relationship with your daughter - if you care about having one that is!

Oh Please! My relationship with my daughter is fine. My point was, that when a child is sick, they want their mom. At least mine do.

[desflood]

Most kids do seem to prefer one parent over the other.

[Clandestino]

Oh Please! My relationship with my daughter is fine. My point was, that when a child is sick, they want their mom. At least mine do.

it would depend on the parent who baby's their kid more.. my gf's sister's kids always cry for their dad bc he babys them... it drives me nuts sometimes...

[Shelly]

it would depend on the parent who baby's their kid more.. my gf's sister's kids always cry for their dad bc he babys them... it drives me nuts sometimes...

No, it depends on who they're used to being around them all the time. I don't baby my kids, especially since they are 9 and 12. Because I am the one that's home with them, they are used to asking me for things. My husband can be standing right next to them and I can be upstairs and they will hunt me down to ask for something. If I'm not mistaken, GON's daughters (btw, I'm glad she's okay...how scary!) live with their mother so it's only natural for them to ask for her.

[Clandestino]

No, it depends on who they're used to being around them all the time. I don't baby my kids, especially since they are 9 and 12. Because I am the one that's home with them, they are used to asking me for things. My husband can be standing right next to them and I can be upstairs and they will hunt me down to ask for something. If I'm not mistaken, GON's daughters (btw, I'm glad she's okay...how scary!) live with their mother so it's only natural for them to ask for her.

i can see how it would be like that in your family...

i was just saying what i see/saw in their family. in their case, both parents work, so neither one is home with the kids alone. but when they whine/cry/do what kids do, they go to their dad bc he babys them... one kid is 5 and he won't wipe his own azz! the mom says, no, i have taught you many times, you will sit there til you do it... then dad feels sorry for the kid bc he's been sitting there forever... ridiculous!

[Shelly]

I agree--I think it is better for the child if mom (or dad) can be home for them, IF they are in a situation where one of them didn't have to work. I am very fortunate that I was able and still am able to be home with them,

If you are involved in your child's life, whether you work or not, then your kid should turn out okay. I knew kids in high school that always had a parent at home that never knew what the hell their kid was doing. I used to party in friend's basement all the time when both her parents were home. Not once did her parents ever come downstairs and check on us.

Parents who aren't involved is the problem.

Jekka, I see what you're saying about a daughter's relationship with her father, For me, that's true. Sometimes I think I married my father. But with my sister, it's totally opposite. She always and still does goes for a totally opposite person.

[Slomo]

Oh Please! My relationship with my daughter is fine. My point was, that when a child is sick, they want their mom. At least mine do. GoN, I'm not judging your relationship (if it's how it came out I'm sorry), but you're the one that said how your daughter expect a different relationship from you than from your wife. That's fine if your fine with it (your post kinda suggest you're not). If you're not you can do something about it (the same way as you and your wife have made them used to it as it is now - by design or inadvertently). I'm also saying that I know of fathers who do not want that status with their daughters - again as long as the child is not neglected (and I'm not suggesting in any way that she/they are) it's OK, I'm just saying that it is not pre-destined to be so.

Although Shelly's example definitely sounds familiar to most of us, my experience is that the child gets used to the parent's reaction in regard to their different needs/requests. So if the reactions are similar then the child will behave similarly with both parents.

Because I was in a situation where I spent a long stretch of time with my daughter alone (or almost - my wife had a serious accident and even when she returned home was unable to do much for the better part of her rehabilitation). So I had to do everything from cooking to bathing and dressing (both my mother and mother in law helped with domestic chores a lot - but I took care of our daughter). As a result I do not notice any difference in her expectations from either me or my wife - even when she was in the hospital having her tonsils removed I was able to replace my wife at her bedside without any drama.

I'm sure that later in life my wife will be more of a confidant to her than I will, but that's a gender thing and the most I can hope for is that I'm not entirely kept in the dark :)

[Jekka]

Parents who aren't involved is the problem.

Jekka, I see what you're saying about a daughter's relationship with her father, For me, that's true. Sometimes I think I married my father. But with my sister, it's totally opposite. She always and still does goes for a totally opposite person.

Parents who are too involved can be just as much of a problem, but that's really the minority. I had friends, too, where we'd always hang out because we knew we'd never see the parents - some of them turned out really well, and others ended up with things like DUIs and drug charges.

And with the relationship thing, there are exceptions to every rule, like you said. It's so impossible to make generalizations, but the bottom line is that your relationship with your parents will always shape the way you go about relationships for the rest of your life. "Good" parents aren't always successful, and that's not always their fault - "bad" parents can raise a very successful child and they may have had no beneficial influence on the outcome.

[Shelly]

Parents who are too involved can be just as much of a problem, but that's really the minority. I had friends, too, where we'd always hang out because we knew we'd never see the parents - some of them turned out really well, and others ended up with things like DUIs and drug charges.

And with the relationship thing, there are exceptions to every rule, like you said. It's so impossible to make generalizations, but the bottom line is that your relationship with your parents will always shape the way you go about relationships for the rest of your life. "Good" parents aren't always successful, and that's not always their fault - "bad" parents can raise a very successful child and they may have had no beneficial influence on the outcome.

Oh, I agree. Perfect example--Read the book about Nancy Spundgen written by her mother. It's called "And I don't want to Live This Life"

[mrblonde17]

STANDARDIZED TESTING!! We're forced to teach to a test 85-90% of the school year instead of actual critical and analytical skills.

The lege wants merit based pay for teachers; that merit will be based on how our kids do on standardized testing. If our kiddos don't do well on TAKS, we could potentially lose our jobs. As teachers, and especially those of us with children of our own, we have to decide what is more important...spending most of our time teaching a B.S. test so our kids will do well on it and we can keep our jobs and take care of our own families, or, we can teach the concepts that Mr. Gates says aren't being taught and risk having our kids do poorly on the TAKS. The kids will more than likely be much better prepared for life after highschool, but the TAKS scores suck, so we're not doing our job well, and then we lose our jobs.

We spend as much time as humanly possible teaching teaching the skills necessary for a successful career after high school, but we just don't have the time. We push the students, the principal pushes the teachers, the administrators push the principal, the school board pushes the administrators, the politicians push everyone.

And some people wonder why education is having a tough time keeping and recruiting good teachers.

[sbsquared]

I would like a teacher to explain to me what "teaching to the test" really means. It is my understanding that the TAKS is supposed to measure those areas that students should be learning already. What does the TAKS test measure that is so different from what the kids should already be learning in areas such as math, reading, etc.

My kids took the TAS test and none of the 4 had any problems with it. In fact, all of my children passed the test in their sophmore year, so didn't have to worry about passing it to graduate. I have a brother-in-law and sister-in-law who teach up in Dallas and they hate the standardized testing also. I would really like to understand, from a teacher's perspective what the problem is with this test.

[spurster]

Poor school performance caused by working moms? Show me the statistics, any statistics, that support this inference.

[desflood]

Hopefully this still works (http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2002/jul/02071807.html)

[desflood]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1084834,00.html

[desflood]

Keep in mind, for every article like these, though, there is an opposite that says it doesn't hurt kids.

[Useruser666]

I wonder how many teachers are working moms.

[Shelly]

I wonder how many teachers are working moms.


Good question!

[Jekka]

Oh, I agree. Perfect example--Read the book about Nancy Spundgen written by her mother. It's called "And I don't want to Live This Life"

Thanks, Shelly, I'll have to check that out after I finish some reading for class - I've still got Mihesuah's Indigenous American Women to tackle.

[ducks]

f$ck bill gates
he just steals from apple
then he breaks the laws and buys them off
why would anyone want to listen to him on anything
he produces the most unsecure os around
he also produces the most unsecure browser around
oh yeah he produces the most unsecure word proccessoring program around
one more he produces the most unsecure email client around
yeah lets listen to him he knows how to do things unsafe. great role model!